It Could Happen Here - Partition with Neha Aziz

Episode Date: August 29, 2022

Shereen, Mia, and Garrison are joined by Neha Aziz to talk about her new podcast, Partition, and the importance of discovering your own history while also learning about the history of others. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. This is Shereen, and you're listening to It Can Happen Here. It could. I always mess up the name of this podcast, and it's really embarrassing because I work on it. It could happen here. Not it can happen here. The same words to me in my head, though. Anyway, we're joined today by a guest that I previously had on the podcast that I co-host, Ethnically Ambiguous. And she has a podcast coming out that is super important. And I'm excited to talk about what it's about and the podcast itself. Joining me today are Garrison and Chris and our guest,

Neha Aziz. Hi. Hello. Neha, hello. Welcome. Thank you. Welcome to the show. So you have a new podcast called Partition. Can you explain what that's about? Yes. So Partition tells the story of the separation of India and the formation of Pakistan that took place in 1947 on Monday. Well, Sunday, Monday, because it happened at midnight, celebrated its 75th anniversary this year. So it's quite a large event that most people don't really know about. I myself didn't really know the specifics of it until I first went back to Pakistan, where I was born in Karachi. But basically, Britain was like, hey, we're out of money. We can't control India anymore. We're going to leave. And in that process, they were going to transfer the power to India, and they were going to have independence.

And then all these other politicians kind of came in the picture and wanted their own personal agendas. And Pakistan would be the Muslim dominion, while India would be the Hindu Sikh dominion. And basically within this process, it was such a rushed job that 14 million people were uprooted, one to two million people died. You know, the boundary line actually wasn't announced until a few days after independence happened. So no one knew like what, where they

were in what country. So it was just like a lot of confusion, a lot of violence, a lot of just a lot of mess that happened. And, you know, a lot of the survivors are quite old now. My grandfather's a survivor. He was 14 when it happened. So he's 89 now. And so the only way we can really get these stories are through oral histories. And I never really learned about it in school. And because my parents didn't tell me about it, again, like I said, I didn't really know about it in school. And because my parents didn't tell

me about it again, like I said, I didn't really know about it for a long time. So if I don't know about it and this is like my history and my family, I'm sure there are many other people who don't know about it. Well, I definitely was very uninformed before you came on to the other podcast, Ethnically Ambiguous. I'm going to stop saying it because it sounds like I'm plugging it, but I'm not. But also go listen to it. Square Shireen. Thanks.

I appreciate that. But, but no, I do think it's really important because it's absurd. The huge historical events that are like kept out of what we were taught in history class, if you can even call it that um but but yeah i think it's really important to know about this huge thing that happened in our recent history that created these two countries um can you tell us what the

process was making this podcast for you and like what research you did and what like just the steps leading up to it yeah so I originally wanted to make this um story into a limited narrative series but I didn't really know how that would happen um and I don't have like an agent or anything like that but it was just a project I wanted to work on. But it's such a vast event. I was like, I don't know, like where it even start. And then a couple of months later, I saw that I heart radio was creating a program called next up. And that's when the idea for the podcast came along. And I was like, you know, podcasts are a really good way for people to digest information. It's a lot more accessible, I think, than other forms of media, it doesn't

cost any money. You can download it in a number of ways, you can listen to it in a number of ways. So I thought that might be a good place to start. And I ended up getting accepted into the program. And it's still like a lot of work. And it's a lot of just, it's a lot of draining work. Because you have all these like horrible facts written in like one Google Doc that you're saying to people, because I outline them, and then I write a script. Because it's mostly a lot of my narration with interviews sprinkled in but the first thing I did is I talked to family I talked to my grandpa I talked to my great aunt who was actually born the day of independence yeah so she doesn't remember Monday but just in case the date is not was it you meant yes so August 14th August 15th so this

year it happened to be a Sunday and a Monday. And, you know, so I asked her what stories people told her. I asked my mom. We went to an exhibit in Pakistan. That's kind of what spurred everything for partition for me. And we talked about our experiences there. I had like my dad do some voiceover for my grandpa because our connection wasn't the best. He's in Pakistan

we recorded it via whatsapp on a pod track recorder and it's it was like uh it was it's very loud over there there's you know birds chirping constantly it was just like a it was a situation um but I just started reading books and then I started talking to a lot of people and I ended up talking to an author named Nisid Hajari, whose book I referenced quite a bit in the second episode, which drops Monday, 8-22. And, you know, the first thing he told me was, you can't cover everything. So once you understand that that's going to be the case, then it's going to be a lot easier. And it's true. Like, you can't cover everything.

case, and it's going to be a lot easier. And it's true, like you can't cover everything. And I kind of struggled a lot with the narrative I wanted to tell because so many of the stories out there are very biased. There's a lot of, you know, like the great men in history stories, which I don't care about. And I just wanted to tell the facts. But I quickly discovered that's really hard because this is my history. This is my story. This is something that impacts my family for future generations and my identity without a doubt. So I was like, let me kind of do it with the lens of discovery. And I wanted to tell the stories that people don't really hear about. So I didn't want to talk about meetings that happened in libraries and whatever between all these politicians. I literally don't care about that.

But I wanted to talk about the way women were treated. It is thought that 70,000 to 100,000 women were raped, abducted murdered I wanted to talk about I wanted to talk to artists and creatives who had kind of like a reckoning with this history and then use their work to teach people about it so an artist who reframes the narrative with her pieces and talks about the actual people affected a filmmaker oral historians survivors that's the stories that i wanted to tell i didn't want it to be um something you would get like on the history channel which is totally fine that's great there's an audience for that but that just isn't something that i wanted to do you're not doing a whole bunch of ancient aliens then no i did watch an episode of doctor who

that talks about partition and i think there were like aliens or something in there fascinating there is something thrown in there about uh some sci-fi stuff though i'm fascinated to see how doctor who handles partition yeah it was actually done really well oh really yeah it was written by a south asian person oh great oh and so that was like the first uh thing that i saw in my research that really kind of showcased like the emotion and and the things that people went through and i didn't see any british people besides like the people that originally came on the mission or whatever so that was nice um but yeah like there there was a sci-fi element i can't tell you what what that was about but that aside it was actually something that um that people told me about when i mentioned partition they're like oh there's this episode of doctor who so i've only seen that that one episode but

it i think it in the in my research it was the first thing where I was like okay this actually tells a perspective from the people of South Asia wow that's good to know it was written by a South Asian person at first I was like I'm not even gonna touch that yeah up next Stephen Moffat writes about apartheid so i'm curious you mentioned not including like including some things but not other things what what like uh how did you decide what to include and what not to include yeah so in a way you can say like the actual history is maybe the least important part, I think, of the podcast. I talk about events. There's something called Direct Action Day that happened about a year before the boundary line was announced,

where Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the future founder of Pakistan, kind of called on Muslims to kind of have demonstrations, but it was kind of unclear what exactly that meant and massive looting, carnage took place. And I talk about that and how that was like a big catalyst for partition, but I didn't want to like get into like this treaty and this event and like this meeting and whatever, because that information is out there if people want to know. And like I had mentioned, that's not really the aspects that I took particular interest in. I wanted to talk about women and survivors and just, you know, I felt I found it to be very common. People who are my age and I just turned 32, I guess millennials, you could say, their parents and family don't talk to them about it.

So it's been really interesting to talk to people who are my age, who are older than me, who are younger than me, have very similar experiences and how they found out about this information. Um, so those are the kind of things I wanted to focus on because, you know, a lot of our stories, uh, from minority communities, um, that are out there in like mainstream media are rarely told from our perspectives. They're told from somebody else. wanted this story to come from me and from other people who have just different experiences with partition, whether they live through it, whether they're an oral historian, whether they write a fictional novel about it to cope with their trauma, which I interviewed a woman who did do that. She was four years old when it happened. And she disassociated herself a lot with partition until she wrote about until she wrote about it in this fictionalized novel um so it's and i wanted to talk about what forms of media were also out there which is why i watched that doctor who episode i also watched gandhi three hours of my life i'm never gonna get back um terrible so not great um you know i love rich Attenborough, like Jurassic Park is great, but like this, this wasn't it. This wasn't it. So I wanted to, I wanted to point people in a direction where if you actually wanted to dig deeper into this information, like here's where you should go. Like, don't, don't watch Gandhi. Like, don't watch. I mean, I love The Crown, but I mean, like, let's be real. Like, you know, like they mentioned, I think, India once in the pilot episode where and it took place about three months after partition happened. And Prince Philip is getting married to Queen Elizabeth.

And what's his name? Winston Churchill is walking and he sees Lord Mountbatten who is tasked with the separation of India, who is also Prince Philip's uncle. And Winston Churchill goes, oh, that's the man who gave India away. And I'm like, that's not really what happened, but okay. And that's the only thing that they say.

But I do love period dramas and I do love Corgis, which is one of the main reasons i watch the crown um but yeah so i won wait sorry can i ask mom patton's the guy who got whacked by the ira of the 70s right yes the same guy jesus yes oh yeah i actually didn't know that until i watched the crown so uh you know um because again that wasn't really i wasn't really looking into him and his history because i don't care. I ended up seeing it in the crowd. Yeah, so I just, I really wanted to focus on South Asians, and like our story, and working through how real generational trauma is, and kind of reclaiming our narrative with um just kind of the truth and you know something that popped up when i was creating kind of getting deeper into the podcast

was miss marvel i knew it was going to follow a muslim woman which i was like great but i didn't know that they would talk about partition and how that was like a major plot point and so people are starting to learn about the history because of that show which is amazing um so if i can kind of add on to that and expand um people's education i think that's great something else i also wanted to do was i want people to have empathy and sympathy for immigrants and refugees especially ones that don't look like them because we come in all colors and sizes. And I think their response to Ukrainian refugees in the UK was great, but I don't really think that same courtesy was extended to refugees from Syria. And I think that's really important because I'm an immigrant.

It took quite a long time for me to become a citizen, 25 years. And it's very hard, and it's something that people don't know about. And so I just kind of want I want people to care about things that don't directly affect them, which I think is a very much like an American rooted thing. And so I really, I mean, I don't think my podcast is going to change that. But if I can, but if people can like look outside themselves with this, I think that would be really great. Yeah, totally. Before I forget, and I want to make Daniel's day, let's take a quick commercial break and we'll be right back. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows

presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, and we're back. One of the things I was wondering, what do you actually think about the way that uh miss marvel like did like talked about partition because i saw a lot of i don't know i saw a lot of conflicting sort of arguments about it yeah so i liked it um But I'm also, I think when you're a minority and you see something that has affected you and your family or has oppressed you, you expect this art form to talk about every single thing. You know, because that is the burden that we bear as creative artists of color that if we don't talk about every single thing that's oppressive to community then it's not

worth our time is kind of like the the mantra that we have um and for me i'm like this show is six episodes like what what like you know you need to understand that that is not something they that they can encapsulate in there while talking about all these other things. So I think it does a really good job capturing emotion. I feel a lot of times you get the partition story from people who are currently in India. So it was nice to see people from Pakistan. And they're from Karachi just like I am. And I found it, you know, like every episode just made me just cry more.

I'm also very sensitive. And so I would just, because I felt it. There was a particular scene where Kamala is talking to her nani, which means grandmother. And her grandmother is like, my passport says Pakistan,

but my roots are in India. And I really felt that because I was born in Pakistan, my parents were born in Pakistan, but all other generations were born in India. And that is a place, because of how tense the borders are between these countries, I will not get to visit for the foreseeable future. If you are born in Pakistan, you are not allowed to go to India.

If you are born in India, you are not allowed to go to Pakistan. And it's just crazy because I'm like, well, that's where I came from, in a sense, you know. So for me, just because like I said, I am a sensitive person, like the emotion, the, you know, the people going on trains that, you trains, that is something that I talk about a lot in my podcast, a lot of people experienced or read about. A lot of people were hoping to get on trains and when they tried, those trains came into the stations, but they were filled with dead bodies and not people who are alive. I think it did a good job capturing the emotion, but it's like, there's just no way you can capture the complexity of that event. Even with my podcast, it's 10 episodes. And like Nisid Hajari has said earlier, you just can't cover everything.

So you have to pick and choose what you want. And also like, it's as an artist, like for me specifically, it's like, I wanna give you like the crumbs of, and then I want you to look into it more. I shouldn't have to force feed you information. I should keep you intrigued enough for you to want to look at this information on your own. So that's how I see it. But I am in a little bit of a different position because I work in film and TV.

I program several film festivals and things like that. So I'm also looking through that with that kind of eye. But like, I can understand people are like, oh, I wish they talked about this. I wish they talked about this, but you know, you, you know, but me, I'm just like, well, it's six episodes. They have to do all this exposition. They have to do this. That's just impossible. But people aren't thinking that way. But I think it really captured the emotion and the trauma of that event and how sad it is, you know, because it is sad to be like,

I'll never get to see where my great grandparents lived or my grandparents because they were children, you know, at least until they decide that's not the case anymore. But yeah, I can understand people's criticisms. But I think for me personally, I thought it did a really good job. And actually, the woman who created the exhibit that I saw in Pakistan that really spearheaded this whole thing for me actually directed episodes four and five of Miss Marvel. So, which is really cool to see that. That was another thing I guess I sort of wanted to ask about was like, what was the process of doing this like emotionally? I know I did a, I wound up doing somewhat similar things for a couple of episodes about World War II and like talking to my family about what it was like in China was just like, and like just doing this sort of archival research was just like brutal. And yeah, I want my family about what it was like in China was just like and like just doing the sort of archival research was just like brutal and yeah I want to know like what that was like for you and what that was like for like your family having to talk about it and yeah. Yeah so it was really draining because you're just reading so many awful things like I read

a number of different books and you know talking to all these people. And I think for my grandfather, I think, like, I don't, I don't, he's not a very emotional person. And again, I wasn't physically there with him when he was talking to me. And I think it's like something that's for sure, like in the past for him. And he was fortunate in the way that he came from an area that did have violence, but it wasn't to the extent of other people's accounts. But talking to survivors was really hard. I actually went to San Francisco to talk to someone specifically because they're very hard of hearing. And so doing it virtually would have been very impossible. And it was also hard because he was saying all these things and then he would tear up.

And it's like, where do you just listen to this person? And then where do you comfort them is really hard because I don't want to interrupt, but I don't want them to be like, I don't care about what you're saying. Like it's affecting me, you know? And that person spoke to me for two and a half hours and I have yet to really listen to his audio. I've just like listened to bits and pieces just for like clarity purposes so that's gonna be rough when that happens and

it's gonna come up soon but yeah it was just really draining and it's just like like highlighting it's like you know when you're reading I've read all these books and you're highlighting things but it's like you're gonna highlight the whole book because it's just there's just so many crazy things and yeah it's just really sad it's really draining like're going to highlight the whole book because it's just, there's just so many crazy things. And yeah, it's just really sad. It's not particularly uplifting in certain ways i did want to be myself and so i try to add a little bit of levity in there um like there was an artist who um that i mentioned her work her name is prithika chodhury she had these really beautiful installations um of like female body parts but they ended up getting ruined in transportation. And so she digitized them and made NFTs.

And so me trying to explain what an NFT is is just the most ridiculous thing in the world. So I was like, I'm not gonna talk about it, but it's like, there's a little point of levity in there that we're talking about NFTs in this podcast. But yeah, it's still like a really draining process because I say this a lot and people I've interviewed say this, that partition isn't something that's in the past. It's something that is alive and breathing. And, you know, Prithika said it

in a really succinct way where she's like, it lives in families and it really does. So like every day, I feel like I just kind of it's hard for me not to get bogged down with all this information because like I said I am a sensitive person so I tend to hold things and carry things with me but yeah it's been a really rough process but I think what kind of makes it a little easier is like well these people's stories are getting out there people who may not know about this are going to learn about it now. And maybe that inspires them to learn about other events that they didn't learn in school. Like all of my education was done in Texas. And that can be

another podcast within itself, because our education is something to say the least. You know, so that's kind of the way I try to look at it like it's really rough and then i also um i love reading and everything so i'm just like well i'm gonna read this like thirsty rom-com to get me away from like the horribleness of the work i'm doing every day so definitely a little Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories

inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I do think it's interesting to hear you say that you're i'm very sensitive as well and how you hold stuff in i do think

as people of color our families especially like immigrant families or people that have been through trauma that's that's why that's why most people don't know about this because this intergenerational trauma is something that they've kept and barely talked about if at all um so i'm really glad that like you went to san francisco and that person was able to like release all of this this emotion that they were holding probably for their whole life so so yeah i do i i think um there are many reasons why your podcast is important, but I think even the chance that someone can like explore that, uh, not trauma.

It sounds a little bit more dramatic than I want it to, but like the feelings behind what that means and their family history, or even if you're not South Asian, it's important to know again, something that doesn't affect you because it affected the whole world. Really? Yeah. It's just like understanding your history and like where you come from. I have a friend who's Chinese. And she texted me, she was just like, now I kind of want to look into like my history.

And I'm like, that's great. Like, that's what I, you know, I wanted, if I wanted any kind of like actionable thing to happen, it's like that exact thing, looking into your own history, looking into other people's histories. Yeah, totally. Wow. I,

I did say before we confirmed you as a guest that you're good at talking and this confirmed that. Thank you so much. You were a great guest. I babble a lot. So I was like, I'm sorry. You wouldn't have to edit this.

It's going to be terrible. No, you're the a great guest. Oh, I babble a lot. So I was like, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to edit this. It's going to be terrible. No, you're the perfect podcast guest. Like just period. But I really appreciate your time. And I appreciate the both effort and like emotional energy that goes into making a show like this because I can kind of relate when I talk about the Middle East stuff. Like it's really, really hard. So I appreciate your time. And I'm really excited for people to learn more about the partition and

what that means. Can you tell the audience where they can find you? And the podcast, obviously, is everywhere you can find it. But let's, I'm going to hand it over to you. Here you go. So Partition podcast launched on August 15th. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts, especially the iHeartRadio app. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter, Instagram at Neha Aziz, Twitter at Neha Aziz13. And you can find Partition on Twitter at 1947pod

and Partition Podcast on Instagram. Nice. On EA, you mentioned an upcoming project you want to do that's also about like a similar topic. Do you want to like explore what that is? Yeah, so something that I really wanted to do, and this is another thing that we were kind of talking about of like people

not talking about like everything like in company encompassing everything in like one uh story so something very similar to partition happened in 1971 when east Pakistan became Bangladesh and a lot of my mom's families from there my grandma and a lot of my mom's family is from there, my grandma, and a lot of her family currently live there. And it's, again, very similar to partition, a lot of violence, a lot of bloodshed. And that story, to me, deserves its own time and respect. And I remember when I first talked about partition, they're like, oh, are you going to talk about this?

And I'm like, I'm going to to mention it but it is too big a story to just kind of throw into what I'm doing because it deserves way more than that so that is another story that I want to tell and it actually celebrated its 50th anniversary last year in 2021 and from my understanding it's there are no memorials in either India or Pakistan that commemorates not commemorates but showcases like how partition was like we don't you know there isn't like a like here are all the people who died or here's this or here's like this statue of a bird or I don't know whatever like that um that you know that people there's no like communal place of grief and it is my understanding that Bangladesh really does have these things. I believe there's a liberation museum and statues.

And there is a partition museum that was founded in 2017, but it is not a government sanctioned thing. It's privately owned. And again, with it being in India, there's also a lot of barriers. Like it's not a place I can visit. And so that is something I really want to do. My mom's actually trying to go to Bangladesh this year, and it's been a little bit difficult, I think, trying to obtain her visa. But I hope she gets to go soon.

I hope I get to go with her. But yeah, that's other stories that I want to tell because I feel like partition is starting to kind of, people are starting to understand that. But I feel like 1971 is just not there at all. It's, I think, something that people seem to just forget about. And it's just crazy to think, I'm like, that's not that long for a country to be around. Like 75 years, like 50 years. that's not that long for a country to be around like 75 years like 50 years that's not a long time um so it's just like really insane when you think about it that way and um

especially when you think of how ancient these lands are and just how new these places are um so yeah that's something I would definitely love to tell. I would love for my next project to be on that. But that decision is not up to me. So hopefully, hopefully it'll work out. Yeah, I really hope so too. I do really appreciate and I'm sure everyone else does too, the fact that you're talking about things that are just glossed over or not even mentioned usually. I hate that like it's usually our job to educate people. But in the meantime,

you're doing a fantastic job and I can't wait to see the other projects you do. But obviously listen to Partition, everybody first. Yeah, that's the show. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbrick. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of riot.

An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.