It Could Happen Here - Patriot Front Goes to Court

Episode Date: February 8, 2024

Molly Conger is joined by Garrison to discuss a trio of lawsuits against the far-right group Patriot Front.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and

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and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight-up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Calls on Media. Hey, everybody, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here,

a show about the ways things are falling apart. Well, welcome back to you, the listener. Welcome to me, your guest host. I'm Molly Conger, filling in for James for a few weeks. If you're happy to be hearing my voice, feel free to share that feedback anywhere you post online. If you're upset about the state of affairs, I suggest writing your congressional representative or mailing a cryptic postcard to your local ATF field office. As your guest host, I'll try to bring you the It Could Happen Here content you know and love,

dispatches from the front lines of our dystopia, updates on the people trying to unravel society as we know it, and what's being done to stop the rising tide that threatens to swallow us all. Today, I'm joined by Garrison, and I'm going to tell them a little bit about what's been going on with Patriot Front. Hello, Patriot Front. Fantastic. One of the gayer groups of Nazis operating in the United States. It's just guys being dudes, Garrison. You wouldn't understand. I certainly wouldn't, no. You may remember Patriot Front from such iconic moments as getting arrested en masse at a gay pride event in Idaho in 2022,

having their internal comms leaked repeatedly. Nearly, nearly constantly. Constantly. Including some videos of questionably sensual pat-downs. Or accidentally giving several members mild carbon monoxide poisoning by forcing them to ride in the back of a U-Haul truck. You've probably seen their stickers on a trash can in your local downtown, or maybe you've driven by a racist banner drop. But when all is said and done, hopefully you'll only remember them as having been sued into the center of the earth. Which is what I want to talk to you about today.

Oh, alright. I am unbelievably excited. We won't be getting into the sensual pat-downs, unfortunately. This is just court records. Okay, well, I can always find that on Telegram. That's fine. But before we get into who is suing Patriot Front, let's get a quick refresher on who they are and how they came to be scurrying around and matching windbreakers promoting a white ethnostate, because I think their origin story really informs the way they've backed themselves into this corner. Patriot Front came into existence in late 2017 when it splintered off the now-defunct neo-Nazi group Vanguard America. The split was months in the making, with a power struggle brewing between Vanguard America leader

Dylan Hopper and a young up-and-coming fascist named Thomas Rousseau, who was at that time barely out of high school. In the months leading up to the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in August 2017, Rousseau edged Hopper out of his own organization in what Hopper called a literal coup. By the time Vanguard America was marching in the streets of Charlottesville, Rousseau was not only in control of the group's internal communications, he was calling the shots on the ground. Hopper didn't even attend. And it was that event, the Unite the Right rally, that birthed Patriot Front. In those chaotic morning hours of August 12th, 2017, a young man named James Alex Fields Jr. joined the men under Rousseau's command. He didn't ride with the core group from Texas in their

rented van, which they called the hate bus. Oh my, wait, did they really call it the hate bus? Rousseau was back then, he was sort of Asmodeus protege. I don't know that they'll claim that now, but back then, like this adult alcoholic Nazi was mentoring this fascist teen. Like he was, he had just graduated high school. Many such cases. Yeah, so they came up in the hate bus, but. All right. But Fields drove here alone. He drove overnight from Ohio.

But he was wearing the group's uniform, a white polo, khaki pants, and carrying a shield bearing Vanguard's logo. He joined in with the members of Vanguard America as they loitered around a public park chanting Nazi slogans. Fields stood shoulder to shoulder in a line of Vanguard members guarding the entrance to the park where the rally was to be held, preventing counter-protesters from entering. A few hours later, after the rally had been called off by the state police declaring an unlawful assembly, Fields drove his Dodge Challenger into a crowd of counter-protesters, killing Heather Heyer and injuring dozens of others. In later litigation, Dylan Hopper, responding for Vanguard America, was asked about his immediate reaction to hearing about the attack. That afternoon, in the group's discord,

Hopper posted, commies died, that's good enough for me. This was, of course, before he'd seen the photos of the murderer mingling with his hate group. In a deposition three years later, he didn't disavow that initial reaction. He said Heather Heyer's death was a tragedy the same way it would be tragic if a surfer who knowingly entered shark-infested waters was killed by a shark, saying it was that woman's choice to be there. But he maintained that Fields was never a member of the group, that anyone could have put on a white polo and stood near them in the park, that anyone could have handed Fields that shield.

His testimony was that Vanguard America didn't actually have membership lists. There was no official record of who was a member, but he somehow also knew that Fields was not a member. In that 2020 deposition, he claimed that he spoke to Rousseau in the days after the rally, and Rousseau admitted that he had been the one to make the choice to allow Fields to march with them in an attempt to make the group appear larger than it really was. And Fields himself never claimed to be a member of the organization. In his federal sentencing memo, his defense attorney wrote that he'd never been a member of any organized group. But the damage to Vanguard America was done. In almost every photo of Fields taken that morning, just hours before he committed a hate crime murder that would send him to prison for the

rest of his life, he certainly looks like he's with them. The night after the rally, as Rousseau was still trying to make his way home to Texas, he posted in the Vanguard Discord about the issue with the man who ran into protesters with his car. He was certainly not a member, and none of us know him. Our shields were given widely to anyone at the rally, and we had many extras. There is no criminal conspiracy about handing a person a piece of wood and agreeing on fashion. Legally, we have been in contact with folks with legal experience, and we're fine. As far as PR, yes, it's bad. But last week they called us evil white supremacist Nazi killers, and today they're calling us the same thing. Shrug it off.

When members complained that they shouldn't be disavowing the actions of the murderer, Rousseau clarified that, quote, the statement never said that what he did was wrong, just clarified that he wasn't a member. People aren't buying it anyway. So neither Rousseau nor Hopper were willing to say what Fields did should not have happened. They didn't disavow the murder. Hopper's comments seemed genuinely supportive of the murder. They were willing to cheer on the bloodshed, but the way the blood looked on their own hands was going to be a PR problem.

Now, for me, the whole Nazi thing is kind of a deal-breaker from the start, branding-wise. Like, just from the jump, there's a branding issue, there's an eagle, there's a fascist, there's the blood and soil thing. It's just, it's not a good look. Could you briefly explain what a fascist is? Right.

So it is a bundle of sticks, right? It's an old Roman symbol, right? Right. It comes from the Roman Empire. So it's this very return to tradition. Mussolini brought it back. Yeah. And you can break one stick pretty easily.

But if they're all bundled together, then it then it's then it's harder to break apes together strong yeah sorry just saw that the preview for the new planet of the apes but that's not the issue for them in this 2017 rebrand right it's the nazi thing not the deal breaker but it's hard to shake the association with a hate crime murder you can try you as a member but the pictures of the murderer holding your logo and standing right next to you are going to follow you so just three weeks after the rally thomas rousseau announced in the vanguard america discord that he was launching a full rebrand calling the new group patriots front that s gets dropped later but patriots front yeah that is a way worse name. Yeah.

Patriots Front, that is really hard to say. But not possessive either. There's no apostrophe. It's just like Patriots Front. Oh, yeah, that's weird. They made a good call dropping that S, so. They really fine-tuned it there in the end. That was clutch.

The only good thing they've done, besides just keep getting arrested, but yeah. So the message wasn't changing the ideology is not changing the manifesto got a little fresh polish but the real change was optics russo recognized the need for broader appeal for new recruits and for plausible deniability on the group's surface you can get away with saying a lot more nazi shit if you put an american flag on the hats and a founding father on the home page than you can if you're sporting a son and rad and posting Hitler memes. Yeah, all of their kind of outwards visual style is all very like American. It is American. There's a bit of like a military kind of cleanliness to it, but it's very much like they're going full Americana.

Oh yeah, it's Americana. It's like Patriot kitsch, right? Like it's very much like they're going full americana oh yeah it's i mean it's it's americana it's like patriot kitsch right like it's a few tin signs away from being a fudruckers yeah yeah yeah but it's it's it's very much not like german nazi it's like right it's like usa with some like u.s army signifiers that kind of stuff but the you know the sentiment behind it is the same you can take away the black eagle and the fashy like actually they kept the fashies it's just red white and blue now they're usa all the way baby i mean to be fair it's all the money to be fair the united states of america also uses a fashies right i'm not like you know crying for the sullying of the of the branding of the united states of america but it's clear what the intention was here. Yes. Yes.

To sort of hide behind that Americana. Yeah. But in the six and a half years since that rebrand, Thomas Rousseau has maintained tight personal control over the entire group now called Patriot Front. You can almost read that as a reaction to his first major setback as a white supremacist organizer. You know, he'd led some smaller rallies in Texas before Unite the Right, but that was his first big day out commanding the Nazi group, right? And as a result of that day, the entire group was tarnished by the association of, you know, in their telling, some random guy who was just near them. We just happened to hang out with people who like doing murders, you know.

Right, you know, like what Hopper was saying in his deposition, right? Like, well, she was in shark-infested waters. Like, by your own admission, you're the sharks. You are the sharks, yeah. You're saying that you are a flesh-eating shark. But that's not possible anymore now, right? You can't just be some guy who's marching with Patriot Front

because their events are never announced ahead of time. You have to get the official group merch from the group after being interviewed and vetted. You can't just show up and march with them unless you're a member because only members know when the events are going to be. There's no chance that some unvetted hanger-on is going to be standing near them. And that does solve the problem posed by someone like James Fields, but it creates a new problem. Real legal liability. By establishing so clearly and so firmly that anybody who's marching with you, wearing your hat and your jacket, following your orders through the megaphone, you have established that all of those people answer to you and you know them and you approve that they were there.

Now you're responsible. Yeah, you make the classic mistake of having an actual official members list. Right. So now you no longer have the option of saying, well, that guy wasn't with us. We don't know him. And that's where the lawsuits enter the picture. So right now there are three active federal lawsuits against Patriot Front, one in Virginia, one in Massachusetts, and one in North Dakota. And the underlying actions and some of the claims vary, but all three lawsuits are making the same central claim, a Section 1985 complaint, alleging a conspiracy by Patriot Front and its members to deprive the plaintiffs of their civil rights. And I think it's really interesting. This is dry as hell. Maybe it's only interesting to me. I think it's really interesting to look at the original context of that statute, right? That code section. It comes out of the enforcement act of 1871 you familiar with

the enforcement acts going going into deep civil war lore you know going back to reconstruction i'm canadian uh i don't the american legal system is but something i've been learning the past uh 10 years it is by no means the specialty of my research or knowledge yeah i'm not like a big civil war guy you know i have accidentally and against my will learned a lot about the civil war because we've been arguing about these statues for a few years sure but reconstruction i think is is really overlooked you know my own education in public school there was like two paragraphs about reconstruction and then we just sort of like moved on.

I had like a semester on it. It is certainly one of the more tragic periods of American history, how we seem to almost have figured something out and then it all went down the drain pretty quick. We really whiffed it.

But the Enforcement Act of 1871 is also called the Ku Klux Klan Act. Oh, oh, oh, these guys are getting somewhere. So when President Grant signed the KKK Act into law in 1871, support for reconstruction was starting to falter. And there was genuine fear that the 1872 presidential election would bring on a new wave of Klan violence in the South. And that's starting to sound a little familiar, isn't it? You know, people are getting tired. People are getting tired of being asked to address deep-rooted systemic inequalities. There's an upcoming and uncertain presidential election. There's growing fear of vigilante

violence by roving bands of masked racists. You know, like everything old is new again. That sounds like kind of like right now. Yeah, that's wild. So, you know, there have been other enforcement acts. This wasn't the first one, but the ku klux klan act was specifically tailored to address the question of freelance violence right so normally if you are suing over a civil rights violation there are only remedies available to you when your rights have been violated by a state actor a cop a government body the law itself the irs you can really only seek legal remedy when your rights are violated by the state this

one's a little different because during reconstruction a lot of that violence the intimidation the actions being taken to deprive black americans of their newly granted rights was being undertaken by private actors organizing together again it's starting to feel familiar yeah it's not like there could be groups of of armed extremists monitoring voting sites trying to scare people away from uh from voting in an election that could that could never happen now we've learned no lessons right so groups of white men organizing themselves wearing matching outfits conspiring to undertake actions to intimidate harass and harm the people they believe that are standing between them and the white America they were born to run, right?

Yeah. So this statute originally provided for both civil and criminal liability for these conspiracies. Interesting. And that first year, Grant went hard in the paint with it. Oh, like he went full hog. Like as soon as he signed this into law, he was ready. So in that first year or two after after he signed the act he broke the back of the clan hundreds of clansmen were prosecuted in south carolina alone they were

arresting so many clansmen so quickly that hundreds of them just went to their local courthouse and turned themselves in because they knew it was coming oh my god it killed the clan wow but even before the supreme court decided 12 years later that mean, when it comes to the crime part of this, maybe we should let the states handle it, right? Uh-huh. So it no longer has a criminal liability component. So there's just the civil liability left under that law. But even before the Supreme Court made that ruling in 1883, the Klan Act prosecutions pretty much ended when Reconstruction died, right? It was this brief moment in time when there was any appetite to do anything about this.

Yeah. And it faded out pretty quickly. So today it's up to the victim to seek their own civil remedy when they're terrorized by the sons of the Klansmen we couldn't reconstruct. Well, do you know what we should construct, Molly? Oh, God, yeah. Robert told me that if I don't come up with a cool way to throw to ads, he's going to put me in a dog kennel and airdrop me onto an island where successful podcasters hunt people like me for sport. So that does sound like something he would say,

but we could construct a compelling ad transition. Let's take it to the ads. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement

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But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. All right, and we are back. Garrison, and I'm going to tell you what's in these lawsuits. I am so excited to hear about

Patriot Front having to read a niche law. Well, the problem is they're pretending they don't have to. Oh, well, that is also what I would do. I would be like, no, no way. I am not reading that. Fuck you. Well, we'll get to that in a second.

So the first case filed was in Richmond, Virginia. So right here in my backyard. All right. So thanks to repeated leaks of Patriot Front's internal communications and documents, we actually have video of them doing what's being alleged in this lawsuit. Which is inconvenient for them. It's not great. So the suit alleges, and the video literally shows, that in October 2021, a couple of Patriot Front members vandalized a mural in a public park in Richmond. The mural celebrated American tennis legend Arthur Ashe. Ashe was born and raised in richmond and started playing tennis as a child

at brookfield park which in the 50s when ash was a child was one of the few public parks open to black residents it was also the park that his father was the caretaker of right so arthur ash richmond public parks like there's this is a relationship from his childhood yeah it's like a very important place he's you know one of the best tennis players in american history and he grew up his father worked for the park he learned to play tennis at that park that park brookfield park actually no longer exists but the park where the mural was installed is in a predominantly black neighborhood okay in the video they filmed of the vandalism one patriot front member supportively tells two others to quote get the fucking n-word they say it i'm not yeah get the n-word's face as they're covering it up with spray paint and then play so they filmed this themselves right they filmed

this themselves and used it in later promotional videos videotaping this crime spree was the best idea we ever had this is so funny that they they just can't stop filming them doing crimes like they're not just taking notes on the conspiracy they're filming themselves enthusiastically participating in it right so funny you know in the promotional videos there's no sound but in the leaked documents it's the original uncut video once you have like once you have like discovery or something also all all all that audio exists that is uh it is the privilege of the court to be able to listen to that well we have so you know in when they cut their promos you know they're playing like cool music over it sure but in the leaked version that we got from um i think it was the rocket chat leaks it was in the second big leak okay you can hear them saying like you know get the fucking n-word's face as they're spray painting over arthur ash's face and then

stenciling over that with their logo sure they're just like hey it was us they're just like leaving it fair and just just so we're super clear about this this is racially motivated put that on the tape like uh yeah yeah and so this is probably the weaker of the three cases right um the plaintiffs in this suit are basing their 1985 claim that you know this is a racially motivated conspiracy to interfere with the right of black residents to enjoy a place of public accommodation right that a place of public accommodation is sort of the legal structure for places where you're not allowed to fuck with my rights um in this case it's a public park and the suit makes a similar and separate claim under virginia's civil conspiracy law for racial religious and ethnic harassment and unlike the other two suits

this complaint is pretty specific about who the defendants are because they recorded the planning meeting and the act of vandalism and because anti-fascist researchers have identified many of the real names behind the pseudonyms. So these plaintiffs name not just the organization itself and Thomas Rousseau, but seven individual members who were involved and they hope to identify 19 John Doe defendants in discovery. And so the most recent suit, the third one to be filed, get back to the second one in a second, is similar to the Richmond suit because it also arises out of an instance of vandalism. But this one looks a little stronger, I think. I should be clear, I'm not a lawyer. I'm just an enthusiastic consumer of the law. Yes. You spend a lot of time reading what I would

call extremely boring documents. Oh, I love my document. I pay thousands of dollars a year to look at these documents. Oh, it's that drill post. Like, please, someone please help me. Someone who's good at budgeting. We will do our best to give you as many documents as you want, Molly. These documents cost 10 cents a page. I'm a single issue voter on free access to federal court documents.

Yeah, all my homies hate Pacer. So in the Richmond case, we have black residents in a black neighborhood alleging a racial intimidation at a place of public accommodation, a public park. But in North Dakota, the suit is brought by the North Dakota Human Rights Coalition, the Immigrant Development Center, and an unnamed plaintiff who works at the Immigrant Development Center. I mean, it arises out of two acts of vandalism at the International Market Plaza in Fargo, North Dakota. The International Market Plaza is run by the Immigrant Development Center.

It's a large indoor market space that supports immigrant-run small businesses and has community spaces for the immigrant community. Sounds cool. Yeah, there's shops and restaurants and after-school programs for kids and business development classes. I'm sure there's great food.

Yeah, it seems nice. They seem like good people. In September of 2022, Patriot Front trespassed onto the nonprofit's property and spray painted the windows with their logo. And so this was not an isolated incident, right? Patriot Front had targeted other businesses in the Fargo area in the months leading up to this, including a queer worker-owned coffee shop. So the tenants at the marketplace knew who Patriot Front was and what the messages in the windows meant. And they were understandably frightened to have been targeted and fearful that this could escalate. And it did. Two days later, Patriot Front came back to the marketplace and destroyed a mural celebrating multiculturalism, including placing Patriot Front logos over the faces of women in

hijabs in one panel of the mural. i've i've had to like call up shops or businesses after they've been targeted or i've like seen i've i've i've like seen on telegram like oh this thing's happening in this area and be like explain to like this poor this like poor employee like who who this is and why it's happening and like what to do because they're often very like confused they don't know what's going on yeah it sucks that how much they try to like involve just regular people trying to like make just like live out their day but also like specifically targeting people of color targeting the lgbtq community and yeah it is it is it is a fortunately very common occurrence because a lot of patriot fronts activity when they're not marching around uh getting beat up in philadelphia are just putting up like stickers and doing

graffiti like that that is kind of most of what they do sometimes they'll do like a banner drop or something well the thing about the stickers is i don't know if everyone is deep in the lore but it's required you're yes it's that's what they call their activism, right? In order to be a member, you have to post pictures of you putting up stickers. Like there are like spreadsheets and documents and your network director is keeping tabs and you have to report in every week about what activism you've engaged in and you have to provide video and photo proof

of you doing these acts of vandalism. Which is also pretty smart on Patriot Front's part because they also sell their stickers. So it's a great pyramid scheme. Yeah, it's got MLM energy. Yeah, I know Robert Rundo and the Patriot Front guy were like working together on a sticker manufacturing business for a while. I don't think that's working out super well for Rundo, but... Yeah, he's currently awaiting trial in prison right i believe so yeah after fleeing to

what is it like romania for like two years belgrade he's extradited from belgrade yes yes serbia that that's that's where it was yeah yeah rough but so in this case you know it's this is not just stickers right the stickers that you could peel off it's you know you're uncomfortable you're scared but you could peel those stickers off and move on with your day. They spray painted over a mural that cost $45,000. Oh, so, well, this is interesting because I'm not a law expert,

but they may be financially liable for that extremely high cost. Right, so unlike in the Arthur Ashe mural, which was property of the city of Richmond, you know, so the plaintiffs in that suit don't own that mural. They just feel that they've been infringed upon by, because now they're afraid to go to the public park.

In this case, the plaintiff has been financially damaged to a significant degree. This mural was, they got a grant. They, you know, had community input. It was made by local artists and now it is destroyed.

It is a thing of value. It is their property. And the law really cares about property. now we have oh yeah now we have quantifiable damage to property belonging to the plaintiff and after these two incidents individual shopkeepers had to buy their own security cameras they shortened their hours because they were scared to be there after dark and the marketplace as a whole actually still operates on reduced hours due to safety concerns the executive director of the non-profit had to buy a security system for her home and doesn't like to go to work on it unaccompanied i mean there's genuine fear in this place now that's the other thing is that these sorts of acts of vandalism come with like an implicit

threat of violence that we can get together a crew of five guys wearing masks and show up at this place of work. Or we could already be there when you arrive. Well, there was actually in the lawsuit, one of the paragraphs in the suit says, you know, that the day after this happened, I guess the day in between the two separate acts, a couple of white guys acting sketchy were wandering around the marketplace taking pictures of people. Yeah, I bet. People are scared. The marketplace's immigrant shopkeepers and customers absolutely understood the intent of this vandalism.

And it was the same message that they chanted here in Charlottesville. You will not replace us, right? Loud and clear in that spray paint. And so their ability to transact business, to use a place of public accommodation, to feel safe in public, was taken from them in an organized pre-planned

act arising out of discriminatory animus. And again, that sort of discriminatory animus clause is important in application of this statute, right? So in the North Dakota suit, they're suing Patriot Front, the organization, Thomas Rousseau as its leader, and the regional network director for that area, Trevor Valescu. And they're also seeking to identify 10 John Does in discovery. So they don't know who all of these guys are that are getting sued, but they're going to find out.

And the third suit, Boston lawsuit, is really the most straightforward. A black man got assaulted. There's video. The video was actually taken by a member of Patriot Front from inside. Once again, once again. It gets worse, it gets worse.

So the video was taken by the member from inside the ranks of the march and it shows members making physical contact with Charles Morell on a public sidewalk in Boston. So they were up there, it was just before 4th of July. They were marching on Boston's Freedom Trail. I think I remember this one, yeah. And Charles Morell was outside the public library.

He was a busker. He was playing music outside the library on the sidewalk. And this video didn't get leaked. This video, they posted themselves. They posted it proudly on their Telegram channel. Yep. And they posted it on their Telegram channel the day the lawsuit was filed. Genius.

Genius move. on their telegram channel the day the lawsuit was filed genius genius move once again the galaxy brain folks over at patriot front just cannot stop putting pretty dog shit electronic music over videos of them doing crimes and so even though i would say if 13 months after this incident occurred i'm just randomly posting a video of this happening that's so weird i would say it's probably because you you know that you're being sued but they are a few they have not acknowledged this lawsuit they don't acknowledge that this suit exists which which the government loves when people don't acknowledge lawsuits that are happening to them you can't just like la la la la

your way out of a lawsuit i mean you can try to go into hiding like forever and uh yeah we'll see we'll see how that goes and so just a few weeks ago when patriot front was like wandering around in the snow at the march for life in dc a reporter asked russo um about the incident in boston he didn't bring up the lawsuit i wish he had i would love to get him on tape on that one but he asked him about the incident in boston and russo continues to claim that like look we've posted the video and it exonerates us i'm sure oh i'm sure it does buddy when i watch the video i mostly just see a masked gang of fascists using their custom-made and branded metal shields to beat a black man who's using a public sidewalk forcing him into the street and slamming his head into the pole and he had to get stitches but i guess it's like it's up for the courts to decide if him being in their way was

the real crime here yeah yeah they was i mean it's funny because like it's it's it's not funny but i have i have i have seen cops before use the exact same justification it's different when the cops do it yes it is different because cops are special little boys because you can't sue them yeah but no it is funny how much patriot front are just trying to act like wannabe cops who do graffiti right like if you wanted to be a riot cop like most cities are hiring just be a riot cop that's not that hard i've seen a lot of guys doing it that i don't think are capable of much else yeah so in this in the boston lawsuit the named defendants are just thomas russo and patriot front but they are hoping to identify john does one through 99 well i i only wish them good luck so garrison you were saying you know you can't just hide forever, right?

Usually not. Well, you could try. You can certainly. Look, you can always try. There are certain people hiding who I wish only the best. There are many others hiding who I think are probably bad people and it's not like i enjoy the violence of the state but if if someone happens to stumble into uh experience the experiencing the violence of the state while also wanting to wish violence upon me and my friends i uh i'm not gonna stop that from happening so these lawsuits right they got filed but filing a lawsuit just means you paid a fee to give it to the court clerk when

you're suing someone you have to serve them with papers. To serve them with papers, you have to find them. You have to track them down. And normally that's pretty straightforward, right? People have homes, they have jobs, they have routines, they have friends and family, there's places they go, there's places they shop. You can find most people because most people aren't hiding and most people aren't good at hiding. But Thomas Rousseau does not seem to want to be found now the first suit filed um the virginia suit they did manage to serve russo at that house in grapevine texas that his father was had owned no longer owns yeah but he and some other patriot front members were living in that house yep but not long after those papers were served to him there that house was sold in a foreclosure

sale god i'm sure that house smelled awful oh imagine it's like you never gotta feel bad for the foreclosure sale guy it's like a gym locker in there imagine staffing to stage that house for sale the only only worst smell is inside the paint trade front u-hauls because oh wow driving six hours in the Idaho the Idaho summer with like 30 other guys in the back of that truck it must be awful do you remember I think it was in the first leak some of the guys were complaining about how when they had to ride in the back of the U-Haul they were getting sick and like passing out and throwing up like oh my god you're locked in there throwing up having to smell everyone else's vomit but also

like there's carbon monoxide and it's hot like you're not supposed to be back there it's so funny but the advice that the advice that russo gave them when they were saying like hey like we were getting sick back there like it's it's not safe like we were barfing and passing out he recommended that they practice overheating yes just get better just yeah yeah you're like you're like endurance tested just start hanging out in the back of u-hauls for fun that's actually not how heat stroke works but no i'm pretty sure you could just think your way through heat stroke i just look i guess i think a chad alpha male should be able to to sit in a packed truck for 17 hours, be totally fine.

So the house, the stinky house, sold, foreclosed. So by the time the Boston lawsuit process server came to find him there, he was already for sale. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was nobody to serve. So they hired a legal research firm. They sent process servers to addresses all over Texas, and they came up empty. So what do you do when a guy who knows process servers are looking for him can't be found? Should have served him at that march in Washington, D.C.

Honestly, why were they not mobilized for that? I could have told you they were going to be there. I mean, I think that would require some collaboration with like anti-fascist researchers who like know when these things are happening. So like that, I think that's probably why is that that's just a little bit tricky but if if there were more willingness for collaboration i think that probably could be successful you could find him right but so if i were to for example file a lawsuit against you today why what if i'm so innocent if i just never if i just filed my lawsuit pay the fee to file it but i just never served you that's on me that's my fault i didn't take the necessary steps my suit's gonna get dismissed

yeah but if i'm really trying i'm hiring investigators i'm knocking on neighbors doors to ask if they've seen you i'm looking under every rock for any sign of where you might be that's different that's that's not on me anymore that's on you and there's ample precedent for this right and the law is pretty clear. You can't escape being sued by playing cat and mouse. The old Tom and Jerry method. And I feel like once they start saying things like the federal rules of civil procedure,

people are going to turn the podcast off. All right, well, that does it for us today, folks, and it could happen here. Thank you for listening. But in federal court, the rules allow alternative service by means that are allowable in that state right so even though they're in federal court in north dakota they can use methods available in north dakota courts to serve their their defendants

and so in north dakota if you've tried your best you've exhausted the normal means conducted a diligent search you can do what's called service by publication which means you just publish a notice in the newspaper really yeah oh that's i didn't know that that's interesting and you have to you have to try really hard first right like they really did try they hired investigators they hired servers like they they did they did their due diligence yeah and so the judge said okay you tried your best put it in the paper that they got mad. Put it in the paper that they got sued. And so they did. They published the notification in a Cass County, North Dakota newspaper for a few weeks in a row.

And so now as far as that court is concerned, they've been served. All right. And it worked. A few weeks later, they got a lawyer. Oh, okay. This is news to me yeah things are moving things are moving so the north dakota lawsuit the two named individual defendants thomas rousseau and network director trevor valescu they got a lawyer and his name it's gonna sound familiar to you because it is jason lee van dy, oh, well, I, you gotta love Dykes. I mean, like, what's not to love? Not the good kind. Not the good kind. Oh, wait, wait, I'm receiving some special intel. This is,

this is not, not what I was thinking. No, unfortunately, if his name does sound familiar to you, it might be because for 36 hours towards the end of 2018, he was the national chairman of the Proud Boys. But then actually he quit instead. Honestly, what are the smarter moves? So he had represented Proud Boys in various legal actions over the years. He was a member for several years. But as his LinkedIn currently and rather aggressively notes, is not a proud boy anymore. A lot of people are asking questions about my shirt already saying I am not a proud boy. Interesting.

Yeah, I feel like I actually am familiar with this guy. He was involved in a suit with the group I was looking into a few years back. Yeah, he's done a little bit of movement lawyering. So this isn't his first rodeo and he denies that he is a member of patriot front though he has spoken to the press on numerous occasions claiming to represent various members of patriot for sure i mean he's not a member yeah i mean i i mean sure i like um he has specifically denied allegations that he is patriot front user john texas in the leaked chats although oh okay well he says that he is not john te user John Texas in the leaked chats, although. Oh, OK. Well, he says that he is not. John Texas has a lot in common with Jason Lee Van Dyke. But OK, Jason Lee Van Dyke denies

that he is John Texas. OK, well, I'm sure I look, I have no reason to not trust a dyke. So, yeah, I'm sure that's fine. Yeah.'s interesting so he lives in north texas right where you know oh he does huh home home base for these patriot front boys yeah he's never practiced in north dakota before he's not barred in north dakota wait what inexplicably so you know you have to take the bar exam to be in a state bar yeah normally normally to get admitted to a federal court you have to be barred in that state north dakota doesn't require that you just have to pay a fee okay but so it's a little it's strange um he applied to be admitted to the um the federal court in north dakota right around the time this lawsuit got filed huh but then he didn't actually enter an appearance until the judge said, yeah, they've been served.

You can't hide. So he did know about it. I would guess. I would guess that he did know. It seems like he knew and he was just working with Patriot Front to make it harder to be served. Again, that's not a legal claim I'm making. I'm just making a guess. just just making a a guess i'm just saying he has never practiced in north dakota before but he did apply to be admitted to the court around the time the lawsuit was filed that's all interesting the

boston case is a little wilder right so it's 2024 we're all online and it's not actually unheard of to get permission from the court to serve someone electronically if you've tried everything else yeah i've heard of cases where someone got served by a facebook messenger which just feels demeaning wow that's that's so depressing imagine like you can send a minion sticker with it oh god horrible vibes but i need to do a little more research to figure out if this is the first time a federal judge has had to decide whether a gab dm is legally sufficient notice that you know you know you're joking there's no way no absolutely not yeah yeah okay well we will we will learn what gab is after i take a break i need to like walk around for a few minutes and just process that

for a second while you guys yeah here's here's some ads i'm just i'm just going to lay down on the floor for a second while you guys listen to some ads. Here's some ads. I'm just going to process that for a while. Hey, guys. I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout?

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we are back get again molly i hope that a lot of a lot of our listeners don't know what gab is they shouldn't be on there but that means that you have to explain what gab is which isn't that hard it's just kind of annoying it's just sort of like a less functional facebook for nazis well i i think originally it was twitter for nazis but now twitter is twitter for nazis but it has more of a sort of facebook interface to me oh i i i always i always thought of it as

having a way more of like an of like an older twitter interface yeah because it has it has like groups and a marketplace like it does have groups of market but i think it started as a twitter clone that started to add more facebook features that's um mostly to like sort of like the evolutionary thing where everything turns into crabs boomers turn everything into facebook yes yes exactly um it is the facebookification of all social media. I think those changes were made to support more collaboration between users because they wanted it to be a place where Nazis could also organize. But yeah, it very much started in like, what year? It was like 2018-ish, I want to say.

2016? Oh, I could pull the incorporation documents. I think it's a little older than that, but it wasn't popular until... I didn't get a Gab account until 2018. It was in the news a lot in 2018 because mass shooters were using it and then their accounts were in the court documents. But it was already popular among certain sets. It was certainly around for a while. Their logo is is a frog i'm sure there's nothing i'm sure that's completely normal but yeah it's it's it started off as just a social media app for

nazis uh almost exclusively used by white supremacists it's a free speech platform it is a free speech platform it was kind of it was i like parlor came a few years later which was more of like a mega ish version get like gab was for like actual nazis right whereas parlor came a few years later which was more like a mega ish version like gab was for like actual nazis right whereas parlor you could find like you know like like anyone from like mega people conservative politicians you could you found a lot of like proud boy chapters but gab was like no you were like explicitly white supremacists there's not a lot of plausible deniability in a gab account the way there was maybe with parlor a little bit now gab is still a thing i i think uh i mostly use it to watch the gdl who posts posts a lot on gab um but i think a lot of unfortunately a whole bunch of people who

were on gab are just now back on actual twitter or in prison and and you know some would say that those two things have a lot in common which is not actually true because prison is way worse the same the same posts kind of got them to both places just different yes yes uh anyway so okay but that's yeah i that's i i did not know that a feature of gab could be serving some could be serving some lawsuit papers. That is something I did not know. Well, it turns out you can't attach a PDF to a Gab DM. So we did run into some trouble. Oh, my God. This is so dumb.

So Charles Morrell's lawyers were given permission to serve Patriot Front and Thomas Rousseau via several online means. Right. So in this motion for this permission for alternate service, they identified two email addresses and social media accounts regularly used by the group on Telegram, Odyssey, BitChute,

and Gab. I mean, I certainly would have gone for Telegram. Odyssey and BitChute are like YouTube and Twitch clones for Nazis. Right. In case the listener is curious. Don't go there. Don't.

Do not go there. My, my God. I have been, I have, I have been on there way too much this week and I have seen some of the worst shit. It's not good on there. No, it is not fun. So this poor process server, right?

This person who normally just like waits outside your work to serve you with papers is like now on gab, right? So the process server contacted all of the identified accounts. And so when I was researching this, you know, I was trying to get an idea of how common this is what the usual means are and so i was looking through the cited case law in the motion and one of the cases they cited kind of caught my eye it's havlish v bin laden oh you know him i that name sounds familiar was was he the one that did that thing like around like 20 23 ish years ago were you born then how old i was i was not oh no i was kidding jesus i thought i was just ribbing you

oh my god unfortunately yeah well it is that bin laden right it is it is the guy it is the guy okay it's the one the one you're thinking of so that's a lawsuit that was brought by families of people who died in 9-11. So last year, a federal judge in New York gave those plaintiffs permission to serve legal notice to the Taliban via Twitter DM. The Taliban? What a time to be alive. What a time to be alive. I mean, yes, the Taliban Twitter account is certainly fascinating. They're trying to hold the Taliban response symbol for 9-11, huh?

I don't want to get deep into the weeds about this particular case, but there's some seized, so judgments have been awarded, there are seized funds sitting somewhere in the Middle East. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They want this money, right? And so they need to deserve notice to the Taliban that they want this money. And so as wild as that sounds, there's actually a lot of similarities in the underlying legal logic here. So in both of these cases, the court is pretty specific that they're not just saying like, yeah, just like DM

whoever and it's good enough, right? So in both of these cases, the account identified as being appropriate for service is pretty clear that it belongs to the person who's supposed to be served. Yeah. And that that particular account has been used to make statements that indicate the individual already knows about the lawsuit. So this DMs the service by a DM, isn't going to be a surprise, right? This isn't going to be the first time you're hearing about this. Like the court knows that you know. Which I just need to see the red receipt that you know. Uh-huh.

Got it. So in the case of the Taliban, the court notes that the accounts had previously published press releases related to the funds at issue and the underlying litigation so it's like they they're posting about it they know they're they're certainly posting the taliban is posting about the funds okay so in this case it's russo's bravado biting him in the ass right and he loves and he loves posting my god and the judge specifically refers to the fact that they posted the video of the incident the day the suit was filed, which indicates actual knowledge. Yes. Which is also a very interesting legal move on the part of Rousseau.

Like the judge is reading your posts and he doesn't think they're good. Oh, my God. Nothing more scary than having to read out your posts to a federal judge jesus christ post every day like a judge is gonna read them over your shoulder right yes right so they're just like randomly and for totally unrelated reasons posting this 13 month old video the day the lawsuit gets filed the judge doesn't buy that fast again a fascinating legal move and so back to the richmond case right we're still talking about service and so the richmond case because it was filed first maybe they weren't expecting to get sued and because more of those

plaintiffs were actually identified by anti-fascist researchers they actually did manage to serve most of their defendants they found thomas dale nathan noyce aiden trudenik and daniel trecci at their homes a private investigator tracked jacob brown down hiding at a home owned by his mother in upstate New York. William Ring was actually the easiest. Sorry, Mom. God, what a bunch of losers. But William Ring was actually the easiest defendant to find. His papers were actually handed to someone to give to him.

But this person was authorized to receive those papers because they were a corrections officer at the Fayette County Prison in Pennsylvania. authorized to receive those papers because they were a corrections officer at the Fayette County Prison in Pennsylvania. Ring was a guest up there, serving a sentence for beating a man over the head with a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire. Hmm. Curious. It was an altercation over a refrigerator. It's very unclear. Oh, that's so sad. I thought I thought it was gonna be like some like horrible racist assault. And there could be an element of racism in this i'm not familiar with the case no don't don't worry garrison he was there for a second defense that occurred around the same time but separately separate counties even um where he punched a child in the face after telling her to go back to mexico okay there there we see that that is what i that's what i was expecting all right yeah that sounds

about right oh man it it does suck that sending Nazis to prison also has so many negative consequences. It's definitely not going to fix anything. The furthering of the white supremacist project is really reliant on there being Nazis in prison. And it sucks that that is such an organizational hub of them because these people should not be around other people. Oh, man.

Yeah, just as an interesting aside, in both of those criminal cases, he hired a guy I've seen before. Very interesting. His name is Josh Smith. He was the lawyer that Matt Heimbach hired to represent him in the Sines v. Kessler case a few years ago. Always interesting to see an old friend again. Man with the most real name, Josh Smith.

Oh, it's because it's not his real name. That's, well, there we go. Yeah, he was born daniel nussbaum yeah of course of course he was i i i clocked that immediately wow good good for me yeah no he was raised jewish um but now he's a holocaust denier oh my this is so sad oh my god Oh my God. He joined a Nazi gang. Yeah. What the fuck? Oh God.

He's like, I got to pick a whiter name. Josh Smith. Wow. What a loser. He's not a very good lawyer either. His performance, his performance in the science case was some of the strangest courtroom behavior I've, I've ever seen.

Like the judge had to keep reminding him of like, can't like that's not the law like you can't just say stuff i love courtroom behavior being described as strange like when the judge has to repeatedly remind you like how the law works like how making motions works like you can't just yell stuff it was a rough trial for him he um his client does owe millions of dollars he's the reverse saul goodman oh my god jesus christ but yeah so the ring hired him for his criminal cases and is in prison oh he didn't he didn't hire him to represent him in this lawsuit because he didn't get a lawyer and he defaulted well so if you default on a case it means you're not allowed to participate anymore and so the case is going to keep going and maybe

you get found liable but like you don't get to participate anymore so when it's over if you're liable like that's kind of you fuck you huh um and so thomas rousseau jacob brown and patriot front are also defaulted in that lawsuit but the other guys great the other guys got a lawyer they hired another guy we've seen before uh his name is glenn allen he's a maryland-based attorney who lost his job as counsel for the baltimore police department after the splc identified him as a longtime member of the old school neo-nazi group national alliance wow huh curious that that the police would have a nazi lawyer that's weird surely there's nothing to uh interrogate there no there's nothing weird going on in baltimore

at the police department at all it is certainly funny that they just hired the old police nazi lawyer for their nazi club they're like we need a lawyer who's who's someone who's been fired from the police for being a nazi so he's been keeping pretty busy the last few years. He spent a couple years trying to sue the SPLC for saying true stuff about him being a member of National Alliance. It didn't work out. All right. It didn't work out. And he currently represents Warren Bailong in a doomed appeal of a previously dismissed lawsuit against the city of Charlottesville for failing to protect his right to have a good time at unite the right um uh well it's it's sort of um i don't know it's like feels a little

slapstick right like we're just like throwing characters in here right we've got we've got the the formerly jewish holocaust denier nazi we've got the guy in prison for punching a little girl um oh the girl he told to go back to mexico is puerto rican i don't know that that matters to him but she she can't she can't go back to mexico not being racist challenge level impossible um but we're just like throwing characters in here we got no it is it is very cartoonish uh yeah but here we are at the end right i've taken up a lot of your time to take garrison telling you my little story but what happens now right there's three live cases they're starting they're starting to crawl forward now that the judges agreed that you can serve them

i'm so excited for discovery my god it's gonna be a treat it's for me anyway i'm getting the documents now obviously the plaintiff's goal here is recovery of damages. That's what the law allows for. They can they sue because they want to recover damages. And I wish them well in that. I'm not like holding my breath. I think we can get some idea of what to expect here by looking back at the Sines v. Kessler lawsuit against the United Right organizers.

It took four years to get to trial. Discovery was stymied by guys dropping their phones in toilets or just not showing up. lawsuit against the united right organizers it took four years to get to trial discovery was stymied by guys dropping their phones in toilets or just not showing up i'm sure a lot of what these lawyers are doing are collaborating with uh defendants to make as little come out in discovery as possible because that is beyond beyond the actual court case the thing that could actually be most damaging to them is is discovery. Like that is the actual thing. So I'm sure they're using all this extra time when they're avoiding recognizing the lawsuit to try to tidy up any dirty laundry they may have in a semi-legal fashion.

Well, they can't do that. And so I'm not going to accuse anyone of a crime, right? Destruction of evidence is not allowed. That's called spoliation, right? So once you have actual knowledge that you're being sued, you are no longer allowed to destroy anything that might be discoverable. Do people still do it? Sure.

Do they always take off? No. Am I implying that anyone is committing a crime at this juncture? Legally? No. But we'll see. But, you know, looking back at science, I don't think anybody's going to squeeze a few million out of any of those guys, right? Like they were found

liable, but they're not going to pay. Right. And Thomas Rousseau started running his fascist club for friendless boys right out of high school. He doesn't have a job. He doesn't have assets. He's not going to pay anybody any money. But what it can do is slow them down. They have to get lawyers. They have to show up in court. They have to participate in discovery. We've already seen plenty of leaked comms and internal planning documents. But now those documents and more will be entered into the court record, right? So, you know, researchers like you and I, we put out information all the time and people see it and it makes a difference um but when something comes in with sort of the imprimatur of the the court's legitimacy like once you put a bates number on that bad boy yeah they could put it on the news the real news where

normal people see it right yeah not not your like niche not your niche like no blogs the site that like 12 people check it on right so like your mom watching mad out is going to see this where like she's not reading unicorn riot yeah so this will put this information in front of more people you will have more legitimacy um but i think the biggest impact this is going to have is on the willingness of potential members and current members to participate right yeah it makes things way more risky for people wanting to do this sort of stuff. Like maybe you're going to think twice about your group mandated racial intimidation now that you know you might have to pay for that. Yeah. You know, maybe joining looks a little less appealing. It's hard to be optimistic about relying on the courts to meaningfully

undermine white supremacist organizing. Sure. But it's worth a shot to gum up the works with whatever tools you have absolutely i i may not i may not believe in like the law system tm as this as this like universally good thing or even like a like an like a valid thing but i'm certainly uh willing to have it severely uh inconvenience my ontological enemies like is it the best solution no is it a solution maybe not at all but it's worth a shot yeah you know i'm gonna enjoy reading the documents either way absolutely no uh that is i i am extremely intrigued to see what will come out in uh in discovery and i wish these people only the worst. So, well, Molly, that was,

that was fantastic. That was extremely informative. Um, I, you know, I, I always think it's impossible to find new ways to laugh at Patriot front yet. Here,

here we are. Imagine opening that DM. I wish they had record. They record everything. I wish they'd been recording that. God, that'd be funny. Yeah. Imagine getting served recording that. God, that'd be funny. Yeah.

Imagine getting served via Gab. I would just, you know, I shouldn't say that. Anyway, well, where can people find you online, Molly? Besides on our show now? I know. I'm very excited to be here. You can find me on Twitter at Socialist Dogma, a name I chose as a little joke before I realized it was going to be my job.

That is the same thing with my Twitter presence. So we are in the same boat there. Yeah, you mostly just find me on Twitter. You can find me on my ghost newsletter. It's like Substack, but there's less Nazis there. It's called The Devil's Advocates. There's a link to it on my Twitter. I post about what happens when you take white supremacy to court. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Molly.

We will talk again soon to learn about, I'm sure, even new and more ridiculous things that you have stumbled across by reading those documents, I am too ADHD to look at. It only ever gets worse, Garrison. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons?

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