It Could Happen Here - Protecting Abortion Providers from Terrorism

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

We talk with Kat Green (@spygirlpix) from Abortion Front (@abortionfront) on how the fight to protect abortion access goes underground. Links: aafront.org operationsaveabortion.com antimap.org  https://digitaldefensefund.org/abortion-privacy  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech

brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist

and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, it could happen here and earlier this week. Not the week you're hearing this, but the week we recorded it, it did, it being the end of Roe v. Wade via Supreme Court fiat and also the coming end

of 100 years of social progress unless people get real organized and aggressive real fucking quick. I'm Robert Evans. Who else do I got on with me today? Is there a Christopher Wong on the line? Yes, there is one. There are many others, but I am me.

Yeah, the others do not count. Is there a Garrison Davis on the line? The only one that I know of. That's right. That's right. We exterminated the others in a brutal set of purges a la Stalin. And then, of course, Shireen Lanayuna. Shireen?

I'm here, too. Would you like to introduce Sophie? Of course. I mean, the one and only Sophie. Okay. Well, that's us. Wow. And now, today, I am intensely excited to introduce our guest, who is a cool person doing cool stuff, to steal from another one of our podcasters. Kat Green of the Abortion Access Front.

Kat, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming on. I know this has been a hell week for you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Now, you and I have a friend in common, and you guys were actually at a national conference for abortion access when the news dropped a little early. Do you want to talk to us a little bit about what happened there?

Yeah. I mean, now that the conference is over, I can say that we were in one of the worst cities in the world to be in when all of this happened, Orlando, Florida, which is basically made of paper sets right yeah honestly you could have stopped that sentence at one of the worst cities to be in yeah we had actually been out to dinner at the oldest restaurant in florida earlier that night and it was a lovely evening even though like some angry driver tried to kill our mutual friend over a parking space ah florida gloss over that part but you know i mean it florida yeah you know also the day had started with uh there already being a bomb threat at a clinic in knoxville so i was trying to help people find information about that earlier in the

day. And then we went out to dinner thinking that we got to relax and then came back to the news as it was breaking and into the lobby of our hotel where the remaining providers and advocates that were there were just trying to make do. Yeah., Kat, first of all, I guess we should talk about what the abortion access front does and your job there, because this is something I don't think a lot of people think about it. One of the things that's become clear to me from some of the reaction of some folks this week on the more liberal side of things is there is a general unawareness of how violent and intense the threats against abortion access providers have been for like 40 years. Yeah. Well, so Abortion Access Front was founded by Liz Winstead, my partner, who was the co-creator

of The Daily Show and started as a progressive advocacy and messaging hub. And so we were making funny videos about abortion and then Trump got elected. We were like, oh wow, our jobs got way more serious all of a sudden. And so we had like 700 volunteers in the week after the 2016 election. And so we started becoming matchmakers for volunteers to different clinics around the country. And we were doing comedy tours where we were trying to build community around the clinics in different states. and then get people to sign up to help because people didn't have access to contractors in many of the places we were going. We would go out and do landscaping work when we were on tour because we were just trying to help out wherever we could. And in the course of that, the nice folks at the National Abortion Federation reached out to us and were like, we're a little concerned about you putting providers on stage. Maybe we should talk about your security plan.

So they, they were out with us the first two years and then were giving me information about people we needed to watch out for. So I got way more involved in creating these security plans around our shows and our tours and started doing a lot of my own research on anti-abortion extremists because as we started talking to more people, the research on anti-abortion extremists, because as we started talking to more people, that clinic escorts in front of the clinics, we were getting information about not just leadership, but the people on the ground who they were the most afraid of. So then I was like, I wish I could just put all this into something where I could look something up by a zip code and be able to tell who I need to watch

out for in a particular area. That didn't really exist. So there was just a whisper network of escorts and then the leadership research that NAP was doing. And so I started consolidating all my research into a database for all of us to be able to use and, um, track, uh, incidents and organizations and bad actors all over the country. I mean, that's, that's extremely important, but also, uh, extremely cool. Um, it is, uh, you brought up right at the start of your, what you were saying, the, that there was a shooting at the Knoxville clinic. Oh, not a shooting. There was a bomb scare at the, uh, at the Knoxville Clinic. Oh, not a shooting. No, not a shooting. That was earlier, right?

There was a bomb scare at the Knoxville Clinic on Monday. And there was an arson at the Planned Parenthood in Knoxville this past New Year's Eve. And that same clinic, that same Planned Parenthood that was burned down on New Year's Eve actually had its front door shot out about a year earlier. And because this is one of the more frustrating cases. If you look this up, you can see that like the fire department has said it was an arson. The ATF is investigating. The FBI is investigating.

They both get given the kind of boilerplate statements they give in those instances. You don't see a lot from the local police. I'm curious if you have anything to say about the degree to which the local police have been useful in responding to this. Well, I don't work with the local police at all. I'm a TV person that got into doing extremist research. I'm an editor and I sort information, right? So like that made sense to me, but law enforcement doesn't really take me too seriously. But the people on the ground

have a lot of thoughts about who it could be, right? There are known people in the Knoxville area who have caused all sorts of problems. There was another arson in a different community center there too. And several white supremacists were arrested after protesting at Black Lives Matter event maybe two years ago. And so there's, here's the thing. There's information about the Knoxville fire that went out on Telegram with an order of nine angles Nazi claiming credit for it. And how hard can it be to find a pagan Nazi in Knoxville? You go to a goth club and be like, who's hit you in the face here? So, yeah, I feel like there are hindrances to the investigation.

And a lot of the a lot of the activists on the ground have good leads that are not being followed. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's probably the most direct thing that can be said about it. What – so to the extent that like there's seemingly not a lot in a lot of these states that is going to be done preemptively by law enforcement. When it comes to like actually tracing out the threats, how much do you feel like you have a chance to actually stop them from carrying out an action? And how much of it do you feel is just like, we need to be documenting this for when it happens? We're already getting early warning about events. We're already, because we track the people who, there are a number of groups that create the same kind of actions that are either invasions or blockades at various clinics and people who have been organizing around this for decades, right? So in tracking them and starting

to put the pieces together, we're already getting early warning about where they're headed, about who needs to be alerted. There have been, at this point, three incidents just, like I'm working with a group of volunteers. These are all people who either escort at clinics or are part of advocacy orgs that, you know, are not getting paid to do Intel. But they're invested in the cause. And so they just follow this stuff on the regular and we're all in touch with each other. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, you know, this person who's been a part of 12 other blockades in the last three years has been seen going on a tour and said the next three stops he's going to, let's tell all the clinics in the neighborhood what's happening and they can be a little bit better prepared. And that's,

you know, I mean, honestly, because the abortion movement is not super supported by law enforcement largely, it seemed like a necessary thing for everybody to start keeping their own records for their own safety. And that's really how all this came together. Now, it's interesting to me that you brought up one of kind of the lead suspects, I guess you might say, for the attack on the Knoxville clinic was an 09A dude. I'm wondering, with kind of the threats you're seeing, obviously, there's decades of attacks on abortion access providers, including a lot of fatal attacks, assassinations, acid attacks, numerous

bombings and attempted bombings. How has the character of who is making the threats and who you see as threats started to change over the recent years? I mean, the 09A who is making the threats and who you see as threats started to change over the recent years? I mean, the 09A thing is a big shift. Yeah, that's weird. We've been following the same Christian nationalists for years, and largely they have the same playbook. They make a few changes to it. A lot of them are older. It's lock and blocks or invasions. There's a few Catholics who get really aggressive and like shove their way into stuff, but it's not, it hasn't been big surprises until recently. And, and a lot of the time in the past, even when there was extreme violence happening amongst

these people, it, it was still sort of tied back to Christian identity stuff. And now we're really starting to see it branching out. And honestly, I blame a few things. One, just the internet in general. But also, the pandemic kind of galvanized extremists across a lot of spheres. the pandemic kind of galvanized extremists across a lot of spheres. And you started seeing a lot of Christian identity people that weren't necessarily militia people starting to mingle with militia people. And then, you know,

militia people starting to mingle with white, like over white supremacists. And so now there's this crossbreeding that's happening where like i mean the groipers are a great example of just like this weird amalgam of things that didn't exist in the same sphere before and now they're their own movement yeah i uh i can't tell you how much i hate that like other people who who aren't weirdos who spend all of their time on nazi telegram know what groipers are now yeah it's extremely frustrating it's the worst thing in the world yeah one of the weird things about doing this type of research for years is seeing like on youtube like thumbnails by like stephen colbert talking about like wacky like nonsense

that i've known about for years and him talking about it like like it's this big new thing you're always like oh wow the the little tiny corner of the internet i was just watching and staring at now is like it's something that isn't like a regular libs uh political lexicon and that's like horrible yeah joe rogan posting about the kali yuga you know that was that was a hard drinking night for me that was a hard drinking night for me and it's so hard to explain to people why it's so bad you're like oh well it's it's just so once back in the 20s there was this lady named Savitri Devi. Now.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's really troubling because, um, it's making its way into traditional Christian identity stuff, you know, um, evangelical stuff, quiver full stuff is now starting to cross over way more aggressively with militia stuff and with like over white supremacist neo-Nazi stuff. Welcome. I'm Danny Threl. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter. Adriel, won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America.

From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast,

and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building

things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh.

And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba.

Mr. Gonzales wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's such a problem because, and this is something Umberto echo you know noted a long time ago but like fascism is is deeply syncretic right and we're that's what we're talking about right now

is its ability it's like a katamari i refer back to that game a lot because it does just keep picking things up and um we don't really do that as much on like, everyone from like the center left to like, weirdo anarchists and whatnot, like, everyone's got their own little box, right? And there's some interplay. But for the most part, people on the left really like making boxes. And people on the right, it's just one big ball pit where everybody's smearing their diseases and snot around and it's not great no and i mean we need to figure out some sort of solidarity because like even with the abortion protests that are happening this week we're already seeing people co-opting things and turning it in really destructive directions um i mean you know the entire cult of Bob the vacuum. Oh, boy. Yeah. I mean, I'm actually worried about that as at this point, it feels like a legit astroturf. It doesn't feel like they're fighting with actual abortion providers and saying that, you know, that like abortion funds are a problem. It's like, those are the people actually walking the walk

and doing anything about this. What are you doing besides showing up in bloody pants and picking fights with cops? Yeah. One of the more uplifting stories that's come out recently is that in France, the left is doing a popular front again in order to kind of wrest control of the government from Macron. We'll see how it works, right? This is just something that's kind of been announced. But this has happened a few times in the past in different formulations. And I do kind of, it would be nice to see a broad popular front in favor of abortion access on a very blunt level. But that would involve people not just getting on board with trying to wrest control from the right back electorally, but people supporting illegalism. A lot of people are going to have to do things that are not legal in order to maintain access

to reproductive health care, you know? There's the other side of it is like, hardline anarchists will have to realize that working with libs is occasionally useful. have to realize that working with libs is occasionally useful um and using them as body shields sometimes can can let you do more illegalist uh type praxis so there's there's both in terms of like people who are really dogmatic on the left being like okay there's types there's certain times where this type this this intersectionalism can be really useful and then people who are less radical having to be OK with more radical tactics happening. I mean, my biggest fear right now is the mass criminalization event that's about to happen. You know, no matter what, people's pregnancies are going to be criminalized in various forms.

If you have a miscarriage, it's going to be criminalized. You're going to have to be more cautious about how you use your phone and what you say in the emergency room and, you know, what you say to people in your own family. And I don't think that most people on our side are prepared to have that level of caution or divorce themselves from technology in the way that kind of needs to happen for people to stay safe. I'm also worried that like, as a movement, we're not really identifying the fact that it's all about bodily autonomy. And so that means everybody trying to access trans healthcare is as much or more so at risk. And, you know, and, and we have so much to learn from the sex work industry about all of this, right? Like so much of what is happening now was built

on like the permissiveness of what people accepted under FOSTA and SESTA. And, you know, that's how all of us got deprioritized and stupid algorithms in the first place. And, you know, that's how all of us got deprioritized and stupid algorithms in the first place. And, and then all of a sudden, we're allowed to put ads out for like legitimate healthcare services. And keeping ourselves in boxes is really doing everybody a disservice. Yeah, everybody that's been criminalized, everybody who just trying to exist is at risk right now is in this together. who just trying to exist is at risk right now is in this together. Yeah, it's, you know, there's that famous quote from, it was a minister of some sort during, you know, the Weimar years about first they came for us, you know, yada, yada, yada. And it is like, it's always true with fascists, but that doesn't mean that people ever spot it while it's happening. Right? Because there? Because there's very few groups that mainstream America has less inherent sympathy for than sex workers. And the reality is that they were testing a lot of this out on those people because they are marginalized. And I guess one of the things I hope we'll see, and that might have some positive developments, is that

there are a lot of sex workers out there with a lot of op-sep tips that they can give other people now. It would be dope if there were folks setting up clinics and stuff in that, because I think there's a lot of information that does need to get shared with folks who are not used to thinking about any of the stuff they're doing as illegal. I've been seeing stuff on Facebook among friends of mine who are more middle of the road and family members who are pretty much centrist politically, where they're talking about like, hey, if you need to go on a camping trip in another state, I'll take you on your camping trip. And it's like, I get it, like, it's great to express solidarity, but will you feel that way when it's actually a felony and people are getting 20 year sentences for doing it, right? Like, because that's where we're headed,

you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people need to get more serious about moving their data out of the country altogether, you know, like thinking about what can be subpoenaed. Yeah. The folks at Hacking and Hustling are doing really amazing work to spread sort of sex work and sex work adjacent OPSEC knowledge to other communities too. Like they're amazing. Oh, that's great. I was not aware of what they were doing. Would you mind giving like a little brief overview of what that is?

I mean, I've only been in a couple sessions with them, but they're generally just sharing information about like tightening up your digital footprint and also being conscious about how having multiple, like if you have to have a clandest something like Facebook, based on how you set it up and what other accounts it's connected to and who you friend in that process, it can very easily find its way back to you and the people connected to you. And so how do you do those streams? Yeah. I mean, whenever somebody angers this podcast, have garrison track them down it's very easy yeah that is that is that is true i have a whole whole folder of people dropping their kids off at school that's right that's right so you know keep your eye out hello fresh don't screw with us again or that one reviewer that said that there was the woman on the podcast who was annoying i know who you are.

I was able to track back via your Apple account. Just one? Just one reviewer? Somebody tried to request access to one of my folders that's connected to it. We had a January 6th document where we had identified a bunch of people. And so I just linked it to Google Drive things so that press people could get to stuff. And somebody just out of nowhere tried to access one of them the other day and requested permission. I'm just like, all I had to do was look up your name in the word abortion.

Like, come on, try a little harder. Try a little harder. So, Kat, I'm wondering, number one, for people who are like pissed and feeling helpless, there are things that folks can do to help, assuming you live in a state that there's anything at all around, because like a lot of people who are hundreds of miles away from any kind of clinic. But if you're not, I know there are ways people can help. Do you have any kind of pieces of advice for folks interested in being of use? There are so many things, right? I mean, right now, I think the biggest thing that the movement needs more than anything is abortion funds and practical support funds really need

financial help because they are paying to move people around as night as needed to get them care. Right. So the money thing is always the obvious, but we're actually having an event on July 17th that is sort of an orientation day for new people coming to the movement who want to volunteer and don't know where. So we're going to cover things like how you become a clinic escort, what it means to volunteer on like an abortion fund or practical support hotline, how you become a clinic escort, what it means to volunteer on like an abortion fund or practical support hotline, how you can get involved in lobbying groups, how you can get involved in direct action groups and sort of pre-vetting people and then getting them out to the organizations that actually have capacity to take on volunteers right now. Because a lot of what's happening,

like we already saw it in Texas where people really wanted to volunteer to help in Texas after SB8 came down. But they were doing things like calling the abortion fund hotline to try and get to people. And it's like, no, you can't clog up the hotline. That doesn't help anybody. So we're trying to take some of the lift off of the orgs that are already overtaxed, that their people, give them some background information, give them a better idea of what the landscape is in the movement, and then make the connections to organizations that have the capacity to take them on. So it's called Operation Save Abortion.

And we're going to do a live stream and house parties all over the country. Awesome. People are either watching the streams we're doing or having their own local people to talk about how people can get active locally in more direct ways. Yeah. And there's stuff like being an escort, which is something I've been learning a little bit more about recently. I guess one of the things I'm interested in is like from a perspective of actually like keeping folks safe. Is that something that you feel has like a lot of value or is that something? Yeah.

Yeah. And is that like people would want to like look at? Are there kind of resources for getting involved with that? There are. Clinic escorting is a little tricky right now because there's a whole lot of clinics that don't know if they're going to be open in eight weeks. So right now, while that's all shaking out, I mean, if you already have an established relationship with your local clinic, definitely check in with them. Clinics in states that are going to see a surge, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York, I mean, really anywhere that's still going to have abortion

after the 26 states fall, the entire West Coast, New Mexico, right, Minnesota, they are all going to need escorts, which clinic escorting is walking a person from their car to the clinic door past protesters. It's generally, I would say 99% of clinics are non-engagement clinics. So doing this means that you're there for the patient. You're not there to get in a protester's face. Some clinics have enough of a protester presence, like clinics in Charlotte, clinics in Jackson, Mississippi, where they have, they split it up and they have people that are there for the patients and people that are there to distract protesters and sort of pull them away from the door, you know, just get them a little bit removed

so that they can get patients past them. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors

that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose.

This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology.

I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba.

He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with.

His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network,

available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a little bit less pleasant of a question, but I've done for a different cause a lot of the same research where you're like spending time in these dark corners of the internet, making notes of people and threats being made. And I remember the horrible feeling of like having a specific kind of thing that hadn't quite happened before that I was sure was going to happen. And then the fucking thing happens. Are there particular things you are worried about in, especially like once this comes through, like that, that are kind of on your horizon? Like, is there stuff that, that people need to be kind of

preparing for in terms of an escalation in direct action against clinics? Absolutely. I mean, we're already seeing increased threats against clinics. This bomb threat the other day was a test balloon, right? But there are organizations like POW who are actively, aggressively invading clinics on the regular and doing things like stealing products of conception, fetal remains, right? And parading them out to the public and naming doctors in an effort to get them hurt, right? It's stochastic terrorism. They're not, they are not going to be the ones to pull the trigger. They are just putting it out there so that somebody else does the dirty work for them. And so many people are guilty of that, right? The church at Planned Parenthood is another good

example. And they've had, you know, they've had a long presence in Spokane. They moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. They've set up church plants in Birmingham and they've been throughout Oregon. And in Oregon, they were hiring the Proud Boys as their security, which eventually, unsurprisingly, turned into a big fight when counter protesters showed up the police showed up tear gassed everybody it's like how is one how is this church two you know like what is anybody trying to get out of this and and so there's a lot of people who've been putting it out there for a long time that there's all this othering language of calling people demons because it makes them easier to kill. There's going to be clinic violence.

I mean, there's going to be more clinic violence, I should say. All of this is violent. It's violent to have people out there screaming at you and calling you a whore with a giant sign of fetus, you know, parts. And then, but I mean, they're really waiting for somebody to light more buildings on fire or shoot somebody and it's gonna happen yeah well does anyone else have anything to get into here on that happy note on that happy note i think um it's just it's not going to be like actual nazi extremists that do a lot of these attacks either i think especially with it uh being especially if if like if roe v wade does get fully taken away

that will justify a pretty violent action in the minds of like most regular christians even when i grew up in like a pretty evangelical uh type of community those types of like attacks against planned parenthood were almost that like there was the there was the overall feeling that they were like celebrated and people who would do it would be lauded as like biblical heroes um for for like for like just arsening a building like that that was very much the sense that i got when i was a kid. I remember thinking those thoughts like, oh, that's what good people do. That's like people who are brave will go and burn down an abortion clinic. They were openly celebrated. The army of God would have the

White Rose Banquet to raise money by auctioning off the personal effects of people who had bombed clinics and shot doctors. And you see a lot of that mirrored now in things like the Saints calendar, right? And so you see neo-Nazis and other white supremacists promoting the Saints calendar and then directing people to the Army of God website. the saints calendar, and then directing people to the army of God website. And then you see Christian nationalists finding accelerationist handbooks and having that knowledge now. Right. And so they can have the knowledge and loosely collaborate without ever having to say, oh,

I'm a part of, you know, and like the proud boys or whatever. Yeah. Like they won't see themselves as extremists. They'll see themselves as regular Christians. They'll see themselves as regular conservatives. And what they're doing is sanctioned by God and it's good, righteous, holy work.

So I think that is definitely something to keep your eye on because it's not all going to be skull mask wearing people doing bomb threats. It's going to be like skull mask wearing people doing bomb threats it's going to be like regular like regular conservative christians who are who are like been on this right words track the past the past few decades most of the people that we track are are not part openly part of extremist group well not openly part of like known militant extremist groups, right?

But a lot of them hold office, you know? Sure. Derek Evans was in West Virginia. You've got John Jacob in Indiana. Like the whole Oklahoma contingent, like Abolish Human Abortion has really just become a lobbying group that's trying to get people in office wherever they can. I mean, they've gotten really strategic about getting people into smaller legislative roles so that they have more power to push things and so that they look more respectable. And so that they look more respectable. Yeah.

And that leads kind of to another point, which is that when you get right down to it, once the ruling comes through finally, as it looks like it will, the vast majority of violence that's going to be done to abortion providers and to people seeking abortions and to people supporting them is going to be done by police. Like that's the eventual end game here. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing I'm the most afraid of, right? Because it's so much easier to turn somebody in than it is to actually attack a person physically or a building even. And so that's what it's going to be.

It's going to be people calling in their neighbors, calling in something from the hospital, turning in their grandkids, you know? Well, is there anything right now that's making you optimistic, Kat? Not to put you on the spot. No, no, it's okay. I've thought about that a lot. I mean, honestly, the people working in this are so dedicated to helping people that that always gives me hope. And I genuinely feel like there's enough of us that have plans. You know, even if even if not, everybody's on board with the same

stuff, there are enough people really doing the hard work and being pragmatic about what's happening and not just cowing under the pressure of it that are energized by helping people that I think there will always be people helping. They might not always be visible, but they're there and it's just going to be harder to find them. So. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Do you have anything else you'd like to plug before we kind of roll out here? Any place people could send donations or volunteer if they're into that? Oh, I mean, you can always, uh, donate to abortion access front where a front.org. And, um, there's a volunteer form there, but also if you want to, uh, participate in our event on July 17th, you can go to operationsaveabortion.com. And there's a

registration form there to get involved in the event. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Kat Green. You are amazing. And what you do is incredibly important. And to everybody else, go find some way to help or, you know, at least it's easy to pee in a water balloon. And sorry. Okay. Well, let's get into that. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us

out on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you can find sources for it could happen here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com sources thanks for listening you should probably keep your lights on for nocturnal Tales from the Shadow of Wrath. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of riot. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast.

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