It Could Happen Here - Protesting Russia in Dagestan

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Robert sits down with Dr. Karena Avedissian to discuss anti draft protests in Dagestan.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart. I am Robert Evans, and today we're gonna talk about a specific part of Eurasia, where, I don't know, things are kind of on the edge of falling apart and maybe becoming something else, I don't know, things are kind of on the edge of falling apart and maybe becoming something else. As I'm sure most people are aware, Russia expanded its invasion of Ukraine earlier this year. It has not gone well, and the government has recently announced that they are doing a general mobilization of bringing another 300,000

soldiers into their armed forces. A significant chunk, if not the bulk, of these recruitments are coming from areas away from the, on the periphery of Russian power, you might say, particularly different chunks of the Russian state where there are minority populations who have been dissident to the Federation of Russia in the past. Probably the most active of these is a place called Dagestan. Most Americans probably are not super well-versed on this area. It is the furthest southern point in the Russian state. It borders Azerbaijan. It's pretty close to Turkey. And this is a region that has a massive Muslim population and has been the site of a lot of resistance to the Russian state in the recent past. And today we're going to be talking about

what that looks like now as the government is attempting to draft men from this part of the state and as sort of resistance has risen up significantly within Dagestan, I'm going to be talking with Karina Avedisian. Karina is a PhD studying social movements in particularly in Russia. Karina, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So first off, I'm not an expert on Dagestan. What do you think is important for people to know about the relationship between this region and the Russian state? It's the biggest republic in the North Caucasus. And it has

actually independent media still, despite the really intense repression and the dozens of disappeared or murdered journalists from the republic. Kinship ties are strong in Dagestan. So the announcement of mobilization and the kind of, you know, the start of the mobilization process really affects people because extended families are closed. So when someone is taken away, it affects a lot of people. So that in large part kind of explains the level of mobilization. The other thing I want to mention is that the North Caucasus region in general, but especially Dagestan and Chechnya, just kind of don't see themselves as part of Russia. To be honest, Russians don't really care about what happens there either.

I mean, you know, it's as if it's another country. And there's this huge disconnect. So there doesn't really exist this kind of civic Russian identity. And the concept of Russia as a country is to a large extent held together by sheer oppression and propaganda. Yeah, that's kind of why I try to focus on like, this is a part of the Russian state rather than like these areas are Russian, because that's certainly not the way it feels on the ground or the people feel about themselves.

Yeah, exactly. And you can kind of see differences in the way police respond to these protests in Russian regions versus places like dagestan um in russian regions and by russian region i mean you know places where you know russian ethnic russians are a majority yeah um you have people or you have police kind of arresting or detaining and arresting um protesters whereas in dagestan, you know, the tactics of de-arresting people, you know, who are being kind of carted off is really significant because of the history of violence in the republic. So abductions, disappearances and murder is very common. And this is something

that I've heard Dagestani protest participants kind of express fear about. Like, you know, people know that that might happen. You might get identified among the protesters and you might not get detained and arrested like you would, you know, in Moscow, for example, but you might get, you know, identified and then kind of targeted later. Which is, yeah, I mean, obviously very frightening. One of the things that I had read kind of about some of the origins of the conflict in the region right now is that it had been common for some time because the economy in Dagestan – Dagestan is in the Caucasus, which is a mountainous region in southern Russia, and it's where a great deal of the country's fuel comes from. There are kind of folks who will say that the government of the Federation has like avoided utilizing that infrastructure to the most that it can to avoid providing jobs. And it's made a lot of young men join the military to become contract soldiers. In the past, that was a good way to provide for if you had a large family, you do a military contract, you're not going to get sent outside of the region. It's pretty safe. But then, of course, Putin invades Ukraine.

And suddenly a lot of these people who had been doing this, not because they wanted to support the Russian Federation, but because it was a job, are suddenly being sent to go fight and die outside of Kharkiv or wherever. Yeah. The other thing is, that's why there's so many security personnel kind of internally in the Republic as well. So the Republic experiences high unemployment as you mentioned poverty. And it's almost by design, right?

So many people are just relying on the state for jobs and security services is one of the main sources of employment, but that also kind of has that double effect of, you know, being used as a tool for repression. So anytime kind of dissent comes up, even, you know, when a large part of the grievances are about poverty and unemployment and just kind of having a future, you have a kind of excess of people who are ready to kind of suppress any expression of kind of dissent that might lead to problems later. And it seems like a great deal of dissent right now is coming from the Muslim pop,

in particularly like the Muslim religious community within Dagestan. The reason that you and I are talking right now is you shared and commented on a post where someone was sharing a piece of protest art that was referencing a recent comment by the deputy mufti of Dagestan. And it's a stylized drawing of several mountains on a green background that says the invader doesn't become a martyr. And if I'm interpreting that correctly, what that's saying is it's a statement of protest from within the Islamic community of Dagestan saying, if you go to someone else's homeland to take part in an invasion and you die, you're not being martyred. You're not dying in a way that is respected by Allah, essentially. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly what it's saying. I found that remarkable for a couple of reasons. The first is that dissent in the region originally, so after the collapse of the Soviet Union and then the first Chechen War, there was dissent, but it was mostly limited to ethno-nationalist movements who were very narrow in their messaging. So their grievances were just you know, just about their one ethnic group and, you know, whatever repression that they experienced. So

they kind of missed out on broader support. And political Islam became a channel for kind of representing oppositional identity. And because of that cutting across of ethnic lines through Salafism which is kind of a stricter interpretation of Islam which is prone to radicalization that had much broader support and posed a significant threat to Moscow and I want to make a parallel here because mosques and religious communities across the world are actually really interesting spaces for social movement mobilization. Some of the earliest works on social movement mobilization talked about Black churches in the U.S. as being, you know, key to the civil rights movement because you have these spaces that are kind of away from the state, away from surveillance. Although in Dagestan and lots of parts of Russian Muslim spaces are

totally infiltrated by the state, or they're actually, you know, state muftis, or the state's eyes and ears are kind of there. But still, there's these spaces. And I think that's a big kind of significant key factor in how this movement has been able to mobilize. And I'm interested in, because obviously Chechnya is another part of Russia that has a large Muslim population. There was a horrible war there not all that long ago. That is really a prelude in a lot of ways to the kinds of violence and the kinds of repressive tactics that are being used right now by the Russian state. of violence and the kinds of repressive tactics that are being used right now by the Russian state. What sort of separates, like, why didn't Dagestan kind of go the same way as Chechnya? Like, how, I'm kind of interested in that, because it seems as if the Muftis there are much more willing to kind of act in resistance to the state still. Is it just a factor of the violence that was unleashed on Chechnya earlier? Is there more to it? I think in large part, it's, yeah, I mean, that's the legacy of violence and war in Chechnya. But I think it's partly because of how

this kind of historical view of Chechnya as being, you know, a threat, a problem for the Russian Empire previously, and then Soviet Union, and then now, you know, a threat, a problem for the Russian Empire and previously and then Soviet Union and then now, you know, independent Russia, independent, you know. And it's really the rule of Ramzan Kadyrov, which plays a really suppressing role in the republic and his security services. Chechnya has experienced post-war. I would argue it's calmer in a strange way. I mean, when I was doing my fieldwork in the North Caucasus, I visited Chechnya. I was in Kabardino-Balkaria, which is, you know, a couple of republics over. I didn't experience war.

But I remember at the time there were counter-terrorist operations in Kabardino-Balkaria where the security services would kind of lock down whole neighborhoods and kind of storm apartment buildings to go after someone who had been, you know, identified as a problem and just kind of, you know, neutralize that person. They were rarely detained. They were just kind of killed, no questions asked. Then going to Chechnya from that kind of context, that stuff doesn't happen just because the security apparatus is so strong and so intense that that kind of thing doesn't happen. At the same time, you feel that tension, that kind of fear. So I think that's the main reason why you're not seeing these sort of protests in Chechnya. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. When we talk about, like, what is it reasonable to hope for here? I wonder if you have any thoughts on that from Dagestan, like in terms of resistance to both this kind of general conscription order, and resistance in general to the increasing imperial aims of the Russian state. Yeah, I think it's revealing those cracks that I mentioned in the beginning about identity, and then kind of this region not feeling like a part of Russia. Yeah.

And I think the other thing is that it's unprecedented in many ways, just in terms of its messaging. And, you know, protest movements in general are seen to kind of, when you participate in a movement, it's sort of transforming on an individual level. You feel like you're part of something. You see all these other people on the street who are agreeing with you in a context that's so authoritarian and you don't have that freedom to speak out. There's no free media in general. It's transformative. And I think that's probably, for me, at least as a social movement scholar, the most interesting aspects. I mean, we can't predict, we don't know what's

going to happen. There might be a new wave of repression. Um, but it's, it's revealing these cracks and, um, kind of almost providing this proof of the, the this unified Russian state that is being kept together by repression and propaganda. I think the messaging also reflects a change in identity and oppositional identity in the region. Previously, protests in the region were directed at the local leadership. So at the Republican level, right? So these are usually co-ethnics who are installed by Moscow, not so much to govern, but more to manage. Um, and Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov is an extreme case of this.

And it was a practice common in Imperial Russia, right? You install your own guy, but he's local. So it fits better with the population, even if they're only there to carry out policies that are decided. So those protest movements were normally against the Republican authorities, their excesses, their corruption. And again, the exception to that is Salafism, which was targeting both Moscow and the local leadership. But here, in this new wave of protest movement, the sentiment, the grievances are against Putin. And that's totally new. And one of the things that is kind of remarkable is you've gotten in the wave of – and these are not just in Dagestan, but Dagestan had a lot of the protests against this general mobilization order. You actually have what looks to me, and you certainly know more than I do, so tell me if

you think my analysis of this is wrong, but it looks to me like the regime blinking a little bit because in the wake of the protests, you had both Putin and a number of different local leaders come out and say we – because one of the things that was happening as soon as the mobilization started is you saw a lot of these people, including like doctors, healthcare workers, other kinds of professionals and industries that are generally protected from this sort of thing, getting pulled in by state forces and effectively drafted on the spot along with protesters. the spot along with protesters. And in the wake of the outcry against that, Putin himself and a number of other local leaders have come out and been like, this was a mistake. We're releasing a number of these people. We're not supposed to be drafting people from these certain professions and whatnot. And to me, that looked like, well, maybe that's a little bit of a blink, but I don't know if perhaps I'm being overly optimistic there. that's a little bit of a blink. But I don't know if perhaps I'm being overly optimistic there.

No, I agree. And it speaks to the level of mobilization that kind of unprecedented levels of mobilization on the street. And also speaks to the fact that, you know, previously, Moscow, I mean, they didn't care as much when the protests were directed at the local authorities. I mean, they did, but not like this. This is this is threatening. And I was listening to an interview of a protest organizer from Dagestan. He's exiled, but he's kind of to the Republican authorities, the regional authorities, is on purpose so that grievances aren't directed towards Moscow because it's the regional authorities deciding on who's being mobilized. And it's a kind of deflection of blame that he thought was by design. And the interviewer asked him a couple other questions. He was saying, oh, you know, we're hearing reports about the police being really brutal. And again, he was like, no, not really.

Or that's not the point. That's not the question to be asking. It's actually deflecting because, again, the grievance is not to the local police. It's actually towards Moscow, who is, you know, the origin of this whole problem. And I think that's a threat. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me as the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Son enter. Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows,

presented by iHeart and Sonoro. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to

bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part part of Michael Duda Podcast Network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit. The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories.

Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audio books while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into

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to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it.

Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Awards. Do you have any kind of advice for people if they're looking as kind of things continue to develop in Dagestan as there are more protests, which I'm sure there will be? Are there actually like organizations over there that can be supported by people, including you mentioned independent media there? I'm just wondering if you have any kind of particular advice for folks who might either want to learn more about the region and what's going on, or who might want to try and help the people who are protesting right now. Unfortunately, there's not much for outsiders to do a lot of the news. And I think I was kind of expecting that was the answer yeah yeah it's like it's kind of a denied context so where i get the news is a couple telegram channels that are only in russian um so that probably doesn't help your audience if they don't speak russian

no there's a couple twitter accounts that i would recommend people follow you know um there's um i don't know if i can mention that or. Yeah, please. No, absolutely. Let me quickly find the guy. Personally, when it comes to like where I'm able to get English language news about the region, Meduza is generally kind of like one of the places where I've gotten some. Meduza is a Russian news site that's news organization that's banned in Russia. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, a Meduza journalist just got arrested in Dagestan by the state security services. But you can go to Meduza.io. And that's one place where I've come across news that's English language. It's not the most detailed coverage, but it's kind of hard to find that in English about stuff going on in Dagestan.

It is. It is hard to find. And I would echo that sentiment of Medusa being a good source for that. There's a researcher on Twitter named Harold Chambers. His handle is ChambersHerald8, the number eight, and he is an analyst and he is posting kind of more detailed, you know, in the weeds, up to date, day to day developments from the region. know, up to date, day to day developments from the region. And is there anything like as I'm kind of closing out here, that you wanted to particularly get into about what's happening over there about kind of the development of social movements in Dagestan right now that you find particularly fascinating that you'd like to kind of talk about to the audience? Yeah, I think the context of the Russian war on terrorism in the North Caucasus plays a huge role here. And I mentioned, you know, the counter-terrorist operations that Russia used to use in the region as a repression tool. So they didn't have to be Salafists or kind of, you know,

seen as extremists to be targeted and stuff like that, like secular Dagestanis and Chechens were absolutely targeted in that kind of, in those, in that context of counterterrorism. And it's really the fact that Dagestanis are really tired of the repression. People leave the Republic and move abroad because they've been labeled a terrorist and they don't want to die um and when their families send them money um to support them abroad they get um labeled as terrorists because they're helping you know support a terrorist so god it's it's why it's also why the movement is leaderless um because there's really no intelligentsia or leaders left in the republic um anywhere anyone who had any kind

of critical standpoint um has either been killed or exiled so we have to see the mobilization in Dagestan as kind of you know with that backdrop people are tired of the repression um and and yeah the protests are spontaneous and uh the fact that it's horizontal is also unprecedented. And it obviously means that it's much harder to repress the movement and suppress it because there's no individuals to kind of target. Governments have gotten much better at finding leaders in protest movements, compromising them, going after them, targeting them, arresting them. And I think this has been a part of why all over the world you've seen so many more horizontal movements leading street protests against different kinds of repression, because it's really the only thing that can't be compromised easily by the security forces. Yeah, especially in an authoritarian context. Yeah. Well, Karina, is there anything else you wanted to say before we close out? No, no, that's it. All right. Well, why don't we talk a little bit about your plugs here? Because you have a podcast that you're about to be starting. your plugs here because you have a podcast that you're about to be starting. Yeah. I'm starting a podcast.

It is called Obscuristan podcast where we'll talk about the bizarre and fucked up nature of the region of Eurasia. But also more importantly, how it got that way. Yeah. That's what we're doing. I can think of few more topics, more important topics for people, particularly people just where I live, to understand. So many people have been affected. We're looking at the energy crisis hitting the UK and to a slightly lesser extent, continental Europe right now. We're looking at rising food prices in the United States, all of it tied to this conflict, which people wouldn't have been surprised by if they'd been paying attention to Eurasian history and politics a little bit more. So I think that's a commendable effort and I'm excited to start listening. Thank you so much. Oh, yes. Can I mention one last thing? Absolutely.

So I'm sitting in Armenia and speaking to you from Armenia. So I would just encourage your listeners to find out about what's happening. We were recently attacked by Osprey Jean, and we have some 41 square kilometers that are currently occupied by Osprey Jean's soldiers. So I would encourage people to learn about the conflict and kind of pay attention to what's happening here. Yeah, absolutely. We continue to be big advocates for folks paying attention to that. And, yeah, it's it's i don't know you know i i had this brief period of like optimism when the white house started making

statements and pelosi visited that like and we'll see maybe i know there's like there's a vote coming up right now in congress to stop selling weapons to the Azeris, which would be at least a start. But I mean, you know, what I think is necessary is for Armenia to have access to the kind of weapons that have been so successful at stopping foreign aggression in other countries, shall we say? Yeah. Yep. Well, all right. Karina, thank you so much for your time. That's going to be our show for the day. Have a good one, everybody.

Keep paying attention to stuff. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of fright.

An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The 2025 iHeart Podcast Awards are coming. This is the chance to nominate your podcast for the industry's biggest award. Submit your podcast for nomination now at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. But hurry, submissions close on December 8th. Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it.

Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech, brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit.

The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T. Connecting changes everything.