It Could Happen Here - Rescuing Migrants in the Mediterranean

Episode Date: August 31, 2023

James talks to Giulia Messner from sea watch about how the EU is creating a humanitarian crisis and how people are organizing to help.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking music, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and

influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only Nuestra Gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, it's me, James, today, and I'm joined by Hulia Messner from Sea-Watch. She's one of the spokespeople for Sea-Watch, an organization that rescues migrants in the Mediterranean. Hulia, hi, good morning, welcome. Hi, thank you so much for your invitation. Yeah, not good morning for you, I guess.

Could you start off by explaining to us perhaps what SeaWatch does and why there's a need for it to do that as well? Yeah, of course. So SeaWatch is a civil sea and search and rescue organization. So we are trying to save people from distress at sea in the Mediterranean Sea. So you can imagine the situation being very cruel at the European external borders right now. So far, more than 2,200 people drowned only this year while trying to flee to the European Union. And the area we cover, people are mostly fleeing from Tunisia and Libya

for example to Italy but also trying to reach Malta for example so what we are trying to do is actually really rescuing with ships so currently we have two ships one is prepared at the moment for its first operation and the second one had just had rescue on the weekend and is now currently blocked in Italy and on the other side we also have monitoring airplanes surveying the area and trying to monitor the human rights situation over the Mediterranean and trying to monitor firstly state violence but also secondly trying to give information when the airplanes are finding boats in distress then for people being rescued. Okay, so there's a lot there I think that we should probably break down for people.

And the first thing I think is you said that one of your boats is blocked. Now, maybe people won't be familiar with the way that certain European countries have reacted to the migration coming across the Mediterranean. So can you explain what blocking constitutes? Yeah, so in Europe, since a few years, in several years, we also see an increase in ultra-right wing movements and also ultra-right governments. So what is happening now, especially in Italy, where we are operating from, is that we have an ultra-right wing government under the president Giorgio Meloni installed and the government is currently trying to hinder civil sea

rescue because it's a way to actually hinder and also block migration. So in the beginning of the year, for example, there was a decree put in place that really makes it so much harder for us to operate. And at the moment, after our rescue on the weekend, we are blocked for 20 days, meaning that we cannot go out and do our usual work in the Mediterranean, but our ship has to stay in port because Italian authorities are claiming that we violated the Mediterranean, but our ship has to stay in port because Italian authorities are claiming that we violated the decree, which is actually going against international law. Yeah. So I think when you say that they're trying to hinder migration in the Mediterranean, that's quite a nice way of saying it, I guess, because what this means is that they are making that migration

even more dangerous than it already is by not allowing people to be rescued. And as you said, it's already incredibly dangerous. Yes, correct. The Mediterranean Sea is a graveyard. Like, as I said, more than 2,200 people died this year only crossing and thousands of people died since 2014. Like numbers can be seen like with the IUM, so the International Organization of, again, for crimes against humanity, because states are purposefully, really intentionally letting people drown. Yeah, it's tragic. It's really horrible. Can you explain a little bit about the way that, I guess, just the mechanics of people crossing, the vessels they use, where they, like, the journey.

If people have seen the Mediterranean at all, depending on where they live, obviously, they might live on the Med, but if they don't, maybe they've seen beaches and beach holidays in Spain or something, and obviously that's not all of it. So can you explain a little bit about the conditions of the crossing? Yeah, so people are, or like, obviously that's that's not all of it so can you explain a little bit about the conditions of the crossing yeah so people are all like people that we rescue mostly are trying to flee from Tunisia as well as Libya so the situation in Libya for example is really horrible it's very violent there's a lot of documentation of torture camps, of rape, of murder, of slave trade. And people that come from the sub-Saharan region

and are trying to flee to the European Union are crossing Libya, for example. But also in Tunisia, the situation at the moment is very dire. It's very racist. There's a racist, violent campaign started by the Tunisian president in the beginning of the year, especially. So we see a lot of institutional racism. We see a lot of racism and also a lot of violence on the streets.

So people are really trying to flee from the country. And people are using all means possible of course because they have to there's no easy way to come to Europe then people fleeing cannot just take a train or an airplane actually and then like trying to reach shores of the European Union of a boat is their only means so they're really forced to do that and boats that are used are for example inflatable boats but also metal boats and these metal boats especially are very very dangerous because they are only like constructed um very really not in good condition so they're really easy um to sink um so as soon as water comes in, these boats are actually sinking. So people are also mostly not wearing life vests.

So it's really dangerous. The number of people on the boat is way too high for their capacities. So most boats, as soon as they go on to sea, they are actually in distress and they are in need of rescue. Okay, yeah. And then let's talk about some of the rescues that Sea-Watch has been able to do. Some of them have resulted in really big numbers of people you've been able to save, right? I think there was one in 2017, which was 50 something people. Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, could very well be. 2017, I didn't work with Sea-Watch, so I don't know which rescue you mean exactly. But for example, just now on the weekend weekend we rescued 72 people actually out of distress at sea with our ship Aurora. Okay so let's talk about like what that rescue looks like I guess what happens is maybe they um the aircraft spots so the ship is in distress is that right and then your ship can respond and go to them? distress is that right and then your ship can respond and go to them yeah for example there's also another organization it's called alarm phone they are like a distress hotline where people in distress at sea can call and they are also giving them the information to all ships in the area and of course to authorities so um on the weekend our aurora actually first supported another civil surgeon rescue ship from open arms with air rescue

and then was led to this particular distress case also with the help of our monitoring flights operations, which are called Airborne. And the people were then rescued on Friday, as said, 72 people. And then normally what you have to do is, of course, inform the competent authorities in the area, so state authorities. And according to international law, then state authorities have to coordinate the rescue. So we, of course, communicated with authorities, and authorities only after a while actually assigned us to the

port of Trapani. So Trapani is in Sicily, on the island of Sicily, and it was much farther away than the nearest port, which was on the island of Lampedusa. So you have to imagine, of course, distress and rescue cases are very dangerous situations and people of course need immediate support and need immediate transfer to the land where medical help can like intensely happen etc because people might be on sea for several days they might be on in psychological but as well in physical pain and in stress and they might have burns from actually a fuel and seawater mix for example and of course dehydration is a very very big danger and risk for people in distress at sea so after we rescued and after we got assigned the port of Trapani we made very clear to the

authorities that Trapani is way too far and that according to international law we need to go to Lampedusa because it's the most suitable nearest port but then we got noticed that we are not allowed to go to Lampedusa actually and that meant that we were in total forced to stay on sea for 37 hours and also for those people in distress and rescued they were forced to stay more than 24 hours additionally on sea like having to really endure those really difficult this really difficult situation and the next dayurday we were still on sea um the sun like really burned relentlessly by that point and people were facing dehydration one person actually fainted and it became really increasingly dangerous the situation on board

um which is why uh we communicated more and more with authorities, and they were then forced after a while to let us enter to Lampedusa because the situation was really dire and people needed to disembark on land. Yeah, I think that's a really good summation of some of the hostility you encounter from states. encounter from states. Another thing that Sea-Watch has encountered, at least in the past, is either negligence or interference by state agencies at sea. I'm not sure if it was the Navy or the Coast Guard. I think it was maybe the Coast Guard, the Libyan Coast Guard, had interfered with a rescue. This may have been before you started, so it's fine. Yeah, but the so-called Libyan Coast Guard is an actor that is really violently intercepting people that are trying to reach European shores and also violently interfering with rescues of civil search and rescue ships.

So we saw, for example, shootings, like shootings in the air, like in the direction of our airplanes, but also in direction of other search and rescue ships, for example. We saw intimidations. We saw violations of international law and human rights by the so-called Libyan Coast Guard. Because what is happening is that the European states, the European Union, is actually supporting the so-called Libyan Coast Guard to intercept people at sea, so to really block people from

getting to the European Union. Yeah, and it seems to be like a strategy throughout the European Union, right? It's rather than supporting people as they come, making this journey less dangerous, they're trying everything they can do to keep people in North Africa or to stop them coming to Europe at all? Yeah, absolutely. We see this on a very practical level in the Mediterranean Sea, but we also see this on a political level. So with externalization policies, with deals with Tunisia, for example, just recently there has been a deal between the European Union and Tunisia with a lot of money involved to actually trying

to block migration again and to increase the support for the Tunisian coast guard, for example. But we also see a lot of political talks between Italy and Libya. Libya is also now a former colony of Italy. So there's very close ties and ties and a lot of influence. And just a couple of days ago, there was the transfer of two ships from Italy to the so-called Libyan Coast Guard. So they're really also supporting this very violent, very dangerous actor with technical means.

Yeah. And obviously, people who listen to all our episodes will be aware there's increased violence in the Sahel. There's large-scale protests in Syria this week. It's not as if there will still be dangerous situations for people to flee. And what the EU is doing is making that dangerous journey more dangerous rather than sort of accepting that it's a thing that happens to humans and trying to make it less deadly yeah absolutely and it's like it's a very uh politically induced situation and we are or like the european union is supporting human rights

crimes like with the money of the european union human rights crimes are actually committed so a couple of weeks ago we saw um deportations from Tunisian authorities of people on the move to the Tunisian-Libyan border, so to the desert, and people were actually left there to die, literally. Welcome, I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora.

An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network,

available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian.

Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. minds everywhere. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation.

Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm you get your podcasts. paycheck. You're probably thinking, yay, I can finally buy a new phone. But you also have a lot of questions like, how should I be investing this money? I mean, how much do I save? And what about my 401k? Well, we're talking with finance expert Vivian Toot, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it all down. I always get roasted on the internet when I say

this out loud, but I'm like, every single year you need to be asking for a raise of somewhere between 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're going to get 15% every single year, but if you ask for 10 to 15 and you end up getting eight, that is actually a true raise. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Another way that you guys encounter state-level hostility is with these legal actions that have been taken against you, against Sea-Watch, against individuals who are part of Sea-Watch and against vessels that Sea-Watch owns.

Can you explain some of those? Yeah, so for example, I mean the most recent one with the blockade of our ship. So it's blocked according to state authorities because they claim we violated the Italian decree that I just talked about. And they actually said that we had to request a port in Tunisia and bring people back to Tunisia, which would have been completely against international law because Tunisia cannot be considered a safe port or a safe country of origin. So now we are in the process of waiting for the Aurora actually to be deblocked again. But also Italian authorities, of course, trying to criminalize persons. For example, in the case of Carola Rackete, who was a captain with us in 2019

and who had to enter also the port of Lampedusa because of the very, very difficult situation on board because the ship was forced to stay several days really on the Mediterranean Sea and the situation became very dire. So there was also proceedings against her in person. So really people that are trying to show solidarity and support people on the move to claim their human rights, to claim asylum, are criminalized on the basis of accusations that are just completely not true. Karola Rakesi, for example, all the charges against her were dismissed. There was no legal ground for them. Yeah, but the harassment obviously still hinders your work, right?

Even if the charges are dismissed, like the time that the ship can't go out. Yeah, absolutely. And it's also a means to implement fear in people's minds. Because of course it is super scary to be accused by a state to have actually violated law, and you are facing

charges of years in prison. And only that fear can already do a lot. But we don't only see this in Italy. We also see this a lot in Greece, for example, a country which is also really trying to criminalize humanitarian and political workers

that are standing in solidarity with people on the move. Yeah. So people might not be as familiar with the landscape of migration. So maybe you could just explain where the boats are based, maybe you could just explain like where the boats are based because you talked you talked about greece and i know that um that maltese authorities have also like bought cases against sea watch can you explain the different landscape i guess of where your boats are based and and where they tend to sort of end up relocating or taking people to once they've been rescued well we take people um people who've been rescued a lot to Italy. But we're also, of course, trying to coordinate with Maltese authorities

who also have the legal responsibility to take people in. But Maltese authorities or Malta, the state, is actually really irresponsive. So we really see as little engagement of the country as possible. We see a lot of hindering of migration. We see very special cases with Malta where Malta Maltese authorities are actually, for example, communicating to merchant vessels who are finding or who are in vicinity of distressed cases that they should just hand out fuel to the boats or hand out water so they those distressed cases those boats are actually making their way to italy

on their own so they are out of maltese responsibility oh Oh, wow. Yeah, so just kind of passing the buck along. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just so sad and how similar so much this is to the way the US deals with people coming across our land border, which is often to say they've beaten back to Mexico, which again is a violation of international law and it's not a safe place. And again, people in the US have been criminalized

for providing drinking water to people in the desert, um and even if it doesn't work it scares people yeah and it's like definitely it's not only a european um kind of situation it's the situation at borders in general um because uh borders are in the end a con like a construct um to uh yeah to safeguard in like like i don't know how to say it like in um quotation marks yeah um your uh apparent space yes exactly yeah and to kind of yeah i don't know enforce some kind of notion who's in who's out and who's the other and who's the same i wonder the one thing that people will be wondering is obviously sea watch is a large scale operation with quite substantial assets and uh people may be wondering like how is sea watch funded how do you get you know you need

experienced captains you need maybe uh people who experienced in rescue operations at sea, pilots. So where do all these people come from? Well, like they come, I mean, also from the general public. We have so many volunteers that are working with us really. Also, we have people that are writing us and trying to support. And of course, like everybody can or anyone can have a look at the website. We have job offers on the website usually as well. And like, if you want to support,

really have a look and also try to reach out in case of any questions. And like SeaWatch and also other civil sea rescue organizations are really sustaining themselves and are financed by donations. So we are solely financed by donations and we are really like themselves and are financed by donations. So we are solely financed by donations and we are really trying to keep the work up as much as possible.

And we have lots of different opportunities as well to support not only by working with us, but also in spreading our message on social media. So that's maybe the easiest for everyone who has social media accounts. Just like search Sea-Watch and you will probably find our accounts on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, but also on TikTok, for example.

Like inform yourself, educate yourself and share the message. Talk to your families while having dinner and talk to your friends and also support really self-organized groups of people on the move so for example you can inform yourself by finding refugees in Libya the group or refugees in Tunisia on Twitter and they are actually talking about their situation in the country but also like like on on migration routes yeah I wonder like talking about refugees in Tunisia and Libya

has sort of reminded me, recently we discussed on an episode, like the presence of the Wagner Group in Africa, right? Specifically, they've been in Libya before. They are now in the Sahel and Central African Republic in different places. And how people have reacted very differently to the presence of the Wagner Group in Ukraine to the presence of the Wagner group in Africa and I wonder like and this

isn't to say that people I don't want to be construed as saying that people shouldn't have solidarity with people fleeing conflict in Ukraine because they should and those people have every right to a safe place too but has there been a change in in the tone or did this just the material support for you guys since the conflict in Ukraine grew broader, like grew out of the Donbass and Crimea into the full-scale invasion? I mean, we see like we are in a situation of like multiple crises now. Of course, we saw the invasion of Russia into Ukraine,

but we're also facing climate change. We're facing dire economical situations, etc. So also our donations went down in the past year, definitely. But we are still also so lucky to have a very strong solidarity basis of people supporting us. So I think it's kind of both a little bit. Yeah, I always think, with respect to the solidarity,

I've never really seen, like every time there's a larger scale crisis at the southern border of the United States, right? Recently, the United States government, very similarly to what you were describing, was keeping people in the open desert and leaving them there for days without food or water. And hundreds of people mobilized to help them people who you might not expect to be particularly radical in their politics or uh you know in sort of direct action people but they were great and

everyone helped and as a result no one died uh one young woman died in texas in cvp custody and like i always think if people could see it then like you were saying if they can see your videos people there's a very human response to never want that to happen to another human being. It's just hard when there's so much going on. Yeah. And also, I think it's completely understandable that not every person can concern themselves with all the topics uh all the crisis situations we're facing right now and like no one expects that of us but we can expect of states because it's their duty um that like they are taking care of people actually and they are really uh trying to set the base for everyone to uh like to claim their human right and it's states themselves that actually like wrote down those

human rights because of a certain situation so i mean especially in europe we really have like we're just considering our history is just considering the history of germany we just like it's it's blatant ignorance and also completely against any historical evidence against any historical work we've done uh what the situation now is and what we're actually doing at the external borders, like committing human rights crimes and like ignoring the situation and actually like increasing the dangers for people on the move on a daily basis. And I think, I mean, it's not only, I mean, you also mentioned

this before now, like it's also a situation you're facing in the US and we really have to like build strong transnational movements and strong transnational ties to like work against state violence, border violence in general. Yeah, I think that's an excellent point that like this is part of a broader kind of state violence that everyone should be opposed to. Like it hurts everyone in the end. And yeah, as both of us being European people, we've seen that very obviously, but we, I

don't know, government seemed to have forgotten. Welcome, I'm Danny Threl. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother, trying to reach Florida from Cuba. in 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean.

He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez.

At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzales wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Parente. And I'm Jimei Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, the early career podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. One of the most exciting things about having your first real job is that first real paycheck.

You're probably thinking, yay, I can finally buy a new phone. But you also have a lot of questions like, how should I be investing this money? I mean, how much do I save? And what about my 401k? Well, we're talking with finance expert Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it all down. I always get roasted on the internet when I say this out loud, but I'm like, every single year you need to be asking for a raise of somewhere between 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're going to get 15% every single year, but if you ask for 10 to 15 and you end up getting eight, that is actually a true raise. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. One thing that you mentioned that I wanted to talk about before we finish was climate change because you said you know we obviously like the it's very hard for someone living in europe or north america this year to to pretend that climate change isn't happening like with soaring temperatures hurricane in cal California, wildfires everywhere. Can you explain a little bit? Because I think one thing that people fail to connect is, and maybe that's largely due to bad, not bad reporting perhaps, but like it doesn't get mentioned in reporting.

When we talk about migration, we don't talk about climate change. When we talk about climate change, we don't talk about migration. But the two go hand in hand, right? The people, certainly many of the people that I see at our southern border are coming from areas most affected by climate change. And is that something that SeaWatch sees too, like as parts of the world that are more marginal for people to live in get even harder to live in?

Are those people coming, you know, being forced to leave, I guess? Well, let's look at science now and about at research and um like millions and millions of people more will be possibly because of climate change in the next in the next years we can't deny that fact and we as european states and european societies are a big part of why um this is actually happening and why climate change is increasing in the in the speed that it is increasing right now. So we have a huge responsibility to take care and like to support people

actually on the move. And I mean, at SeaWatch, we don't make any difference as of why people are fleeing. People are in distress at sea. People are being rescued. That's it. That's the only perspective we have, supporting people that are in distress at sea, because if you are calling an ambulance, they also don't ask,

oh, hey, why are you actually calling the ambulance? Like, why are you in this situation? The ambulance is just coming. And this should also be always the ambulance. Why are you in this situation? The ambulance is just coming. And this should also be always the case in the Mediterranean. Yeah, or anywhere else people see. So I wonder, the last couple of things I wanted to ask you are more broad, but you spoke earlier about the rise of right-wing governments and movements in europe and um when we like

obviously talk about the history of the right wing in europe and we think about fascism and uh i know people who listen to this podcast will be very invested in like their their history and and current struggle of anti-fascism and would you say it was fair it would be fair to cast what Sea-Watch is doing within the broader spectrum of opposing fascism or opposing, I guess, nationalist state violence, right-wing state violence? Absolutely. We are part of an anti-fascist movement. We are anti-fascists by core.

So we definitely define ourselves as anti-fascist activists. Yeah, nice. And I wonder, the last thing, that people want to show their solidarity. You mentioned some ways. Is there anything in particular, like I know people have contacted me about volunteering for Sea Wish before and I've directed them to your website,

but we do have a lot of listeners in Europe. And are there particular things that you're looking for in volunteers obviously anyone can donate and they should if they have money but uh what are you is there certain qualifications you desperately need or so i mean we of course always looking for people that are supporting our operations um in especially on sea but also with our airplanes of course so um if you have have captain's qualifications or other qualifications that allow you to go to sea and sail or engineering qualifications for example or medical qualifications as well we're always looking for nurses for doctors supporting on the

ships then please just like have a look at the website and reach out. We have a specific form as well where you can just also sign in for interest, basically. And then our crewing department takes care and sees who and when it's actually fitting. Okay, yeah, that's great. Hopefully some people can reach out. And before we finish up, is there anything else that you'd like to share with people that you think we haven't got to? I think we didn't talk about Frontex, for example. Oh, yeah. Let's do it. Explain Frontex to people.

Yeah, so Frontex is the European Border Protection Agency, so-called, actually, or Coast Guard and Border Agency. And Frontex is also surveying and working on the Mediterranean Sea and responsible for border protection specifically in general, or it actually has a double mandate. So border protection on the one side, but also Coast Guard duties,

Europeans on the other side. What we criticize is, of course, that Frontex does so-called border protection and does not actually support people on the move and people in distress. So this double mandate does not work at all. We see a lot of non-coordination, a lot of non-information and also a lot of violence of Frontex. So, for example, Frontex, there was a report from Human Rights Watch, for example, that Frontex is complicit in pullbacks by the so-called Libyan Coast Guard because there is actually communication between Frontex and the so-called Libyan Coast Guard because there is actually communication between Frontex and the so-called Libyan Coast Guard.

And the so-called Libyan Coast Guard can then detect boats in distress, their location with this information provided by Frontex and bring people or force people back to Libya, for example. So Frontex is really an actor that we criticize hugely and that we're actually working towards their abolishment because how the organization or the institution is working right now does not have anything to do with legal rights of people. Yeah, and we spoke with Ruth Kinner, who's a professor in Loughborough, about lifeboats in the UK, because the UK has a very real distinction between rescuing people at sea and doing border enforcement,

and those two are different things. Yes, very different. Yeah, if people... It's also in Kropotkin's book, Mutual Aid, he talks about the value of lifeboats and volunteer organizations such as your own. It's also in Kropotkin's book, Mutual Aid, he talks about the value of lifeboats and volunteer organizations such as your own. It's very foundational. People talk a lot about mutual aid, but this is one of the foundational examples of it. Can you explain what a better system...

Obviously, I'm not asking you to solve all the world's problems, but we can make relatively few changes, I i guess and make this so much more humane and not have someone's little children drown in the mediterranean so that i don't know people don't have to live next to someone who speaks a different language from them or whatever people's fears are of migrants um can you explain what that would look like i mean we need freedom of movement uh that's for sure. And this is also one of our basic demands. We need freedom of movement for everyone. We need people to have legal and safe pathways to Europe, so safe passage. We need a system that in accordance to the needs and the wants of people, people are actually also

redistributed over the European Union and can join their family members, for example, or their friends. They support systems while trying to flee violence, while trying to flee from places where they cannot live in the end. So this is really what we are focusing on in the end, to have people coming to Europe through safe passages. And this is really what needs to be established. And of course, in this current situation, as a first step,

we need a European coordinated search and rescue program with the only mandate to rescue boats in distress, to rescue people in distress, to actually make sure that the situation, the death trap that the Mediterranean Sea is actually constituting at the moment stops, like this situation has to stop immediately. Yeah, and it could stop very quickly, right? The level of resources that are state-type available to deploy, they could make this go away very quickly.

Yeah, they could if they wouldn't be actually focused on externalization and blocking people to come. Yeah, and I think, like, I don't know, when you think about the fact that that's a conscious choice and the results of that, it's very, very sad. I mean, in the UK, we seem to just talk about it openly now. Like, they have whole campaigns about stopping small boats. But, yeah, I think people need to realize that it's not boats that they're stopping.

It's little children that they're consigning to risking their lives. Yeah, children, it's women, it's men, it's non-binary persons. It's everyone who wants to reach safety and everyone deserves to be rescued. Everyone deserves to live rescued everyone deserves to be to live no questions asked yeah no i think that's a wonderful place to end actually because i think it's a hard statement to disagree with uh can you what are your twitter handles where can people find and follow sea watch see what's true okay and that's all over that's your url as well um yeah so um let me have a look so i'm not saying saying anything um wrong but sea watch crew so at sea watch crew all together and also in small

is actually our german account and our international account is at sea watchWatch underline INTL for international. And then we also have an Italian account for all Italian speakers. Okay, perfect. Yeah, we'll make sure that we link to those too. And thank you very much for your time this afternoon, your time, morning, my time. Thank you so much for the request

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