It Could Happen Here - Settler Colonialism with Andrew

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Andrew and James discuss settler colonialism across several contexts. Sources: Settler Colonialism and the Elimination of the Native by Patrick Wolfe https://www.britannica.com/place/Liberia/History Liberia: The Violence of Democracy by Mary H Moran.  The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi The Question of Palestine by Edward Said https://rpublc.com/story/2024/02/08/international-affairs/the-false-equivalence-of-liberia-and-israelSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It's the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey,

Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Happy Pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network. All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original. It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting. Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes, and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity key keys, check outlaws with T.S. Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem, and start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July.

Celebrate Pride with the Outspoken Network. Open your free IHeart Radio app. Search Pride and listen now. Here at the Happiness Lab, we're serving up some hot takes for the summer. Big ideas that just might reshape how you think about your well-being. Like the radical notion that we should get rid of small talk completely. We talk about current events. We talk about what you do for a living.

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many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft. I thought we were going to die then. The Knife is a podcast about the moment ordinary lives take an unexpected turn. Real people, real stories, and the split second that changes everything. New episodes drop every Thursday on the Exactly Right Network and the IHeart Podcast Network. Listen to The Knife on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. With scenes of the genocide in Palestine, fastering our screens with the past few years, and increasing analysis of the settler colonial and supremacist root of Israel's violence.

It's had me thinking more about the concept of settler colonialism. Many people know now about Israel's settler colonial past, and its parallels with the US, Australia, South Africa and Canada. Those are common comparisons. But few know much about the settler colonial origins of Liberia, which has gained a little attention as people have begun learning more about the concept. So I'd like to take a look at Liberia, Israel, and the parallels of settler colonialism. This is it could happen here.

I'm Andrew Sage. Andrews I'm on YouTube. And I'm joined once again by... It's James again. I'm excited to learn about this. Yeah. I'm mainly looking at the parallels through the lens of analysis provided by historian Patrick Wolf in his famous article, Settler colonialism, and the elimination of the native.

with other historical resources and articles linked in the show notes. First off, before we start making comparisons, I'll need to introduce the concept for those unfamiliar. Settler colonialism is in one sentence an ongoing structural process where outsiders permanently occupy indigenous lands to build new societies. Wolf notes that invasion is a structure, not an event. He calls settler colonialism inherently eliminatory but not invariably genocidal, and calls elimination an organizing principle of settler colonial society rather than a one-off occurrence. Unlike the kind of exploitation, colonialism which seeks to extract resources and leave,

settlers come to stay, to claim land, as wolf quotes Deborah Bird Rose, to get in the way of settler colonization, all the native has to do is stay at home. Settlers tell various stories to justify their eliminatory ambitions, race, religion, ethnicity, civilization status, but it really comes down to territory. Settlers want to establish lasting autonomous communities by eliminating the existing indigenous way of life

and replacing it with the colonizer's culture, economy, and political order. Wolf says that, settler colonialism destroys to replace, pointing to the quite visceral example of Israeli settlers uprooting ancient olive trees and replacing them with foreign fruit trees. Or, as Israel often euphemizes it, making the desert bloom. Elimination doesn't have to mean the wholesale slaughter of indigenous people, though frontier homicide tends to be a trend. But elimination seeks to dissolve indigenous people and their way of life through various means. Expulsion, encouraged population mixing and forced assimilation, enclosure, child abduction, missions and boarding schools, religious

conversion, marginalization, labor exploitation, and more, often several at once. Settler colonialism tends to remain deeply embedded into laws and institutions of the countries found that way. But Wolf points to a curious side effect of settler colonialism, which is the way that settler society subsequently attempts to recuperate indiginity in order to express its independence from the mother country. He references Australia's incorporation of indigenous symbolism, for one example. Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand, South Africa, French Algeria, Rhodesia, Liberia, and Israel are all examples of contemporary or historical settler colonial societies. But unfortunately, but unfortunately, on the parallels between just two of them, Liberia and Israel. In 1818, the American Colonization

Society scouted what was then known as the Grain Coast and deemed it a suitable location for their planned African colony, meant to be a home for formerly enslaved people in the U.S. fallen emancipation, as well as three black people that already existed in the territory. The first successful settlement was established in 1822, after an agreement with the local Chiefs signed in 1821 granted the society possession of Cape Messurado. Now, some free black Americans had advocated return to Africa projects long before the ECS was even founded. So we shouldn't erase the agency in this. But the ECS was led by a mix of white abolitionists and white enslavers who mostly just wanted to rid themselves the free

black population in the US. Most free black Americans opposed the project, either in initially or in time. Those Black Americans that did participate came to be known as Amerioreans. They carried on the American Colonization Society's narrative that the establishment of Liberia was a return to the promised land,

an exodus of formerly enslaved people returning to their ancestral homeland, establish an independent land of freedom. And as a minority in that land, the Amerioreans would establish a government and various settlements they ruled that would attempt to expand Liberia, Syria's initial territory and bring civilization and Christianity to the natives.

Those that went were clearly heavily influenced by their American background, viewing themselves culturally, socially, and educationally superior to the native African ethnic groups they encountered. After a few decades of support from the American Colonization Society, independence was declared in 1847, but only recognized by the U.S. in 1862. They also very quickly fell into a deteriorating economic situation marked by heavy foreign debt obligations, culminating in multinational intervention and oversight in the early 1900s, as well as the establishment of a million-acre rubber plantation for the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company, which would exploit the indigenous people in Liberia for decades to come.

Any time you're sending up a rubber plantation, I feel like that should be a massive, flag that you're one of the bad guys. Yeah, yeah, exactly. People who have been subject to settle a colonial violence and to like racially motivated, sound like a cop, I say racially motivated violence, like the violence to inherit the racism and capitalism. The idea that the way to kind of write those wrongs is to become the one doing the violence, not the one subject to the violence. I see it in Myanmar, right, like a country that was brutally colonized by the country that I was born in, but in which essentially today, the state of Myanmar is itself a colonial entity, right? We have a number of different ethnic groups, dozens of ethnic groups within

Myanmar, and we have one ethnic group, which has dominated governance and which has dominated the military, and which has used the tool of the state to extract resources, labor, human bodies from the other ethnic groups, right? Because they've gone from being colonized to effectively being like a contiguous empire, and they've adopted the logic of the colonizer in doing so. Yeah. And fortunately, this is a very common phenomenon, you know. This is why I tend to view nationalism, even so-called third-world nationalisms, as dead ends, as explicitly counter-revolutionary, as against deliberation of all people.

Yeah. Because that construction of the nation-state or really of states in general tends to come with the establishment of certain superiors and inferiors, you know, subordinates and rulers. Yeah. And the privilege in of certain religions, ethnic groups, skin tones, whatever the case may be, even within so-called ethnically homogenous societies. Yeah. You can even look at Japan, right, which is touted by, you know, supremacists of all flavors as an ethnically homogenous society. Even within that society, there's, you know, colorism.

Yeah. And there's also the exploitation and marginalization of certain groups within that territory, such as the Ainu. Yeah. In Montreal and Osiaga, with four nights at residents in downtown Montreal, flights from Porter Airlines, two weekend gold tickets, and $1,000 of cash. Please love me. Lord, Zara Larson, Tema Gray, Sombor, 21 pilots, and more.

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And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend Nile Horn is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It's the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, our taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done.

You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. June is Black Music Month, and on the Drink Chams podcast, we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Sway Lee. You realize how legendary you are? I appreciate that. I'd be seeing it, but I'm like, man, I still got, like, so much more to do. Like, Prince, he dropped, like, 30 albums. We dropped, like, five right now.

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I literally filmed in his apartment in Queensbridge. His moms were still up in that apartment. apartment. Nans was just beginning to take up. His pops used to live near me in Harlem. His dad introduced him to a whole lot of, you know, conscious stuff and he made a young prodigy. No matter the era, Drinkchamps brings

you the biggest names and the most unfiltered conversations. Listen to Drink Chams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. But did Black music, food, and culture teach us about who we were becoming? 2016 was sort of

that last era. of monoculture, where we still consumed things in community. From Beyonce and Rihanna. Everybody wanted to be Beyonce. I don't think we'll ever see another Rihanna. To soul food, memory, identity, and the stories we carry through black culture. What does it mean to be black and eat in America? So we were this group of people who knew how to work the land, who knew how to live with the land.

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There was a time when there was a movement to try and use nationalism as a positive thing. Like the idea of a brotherhood of nations, right? It existed within Catalan anti-fascism in the 1930s. Like, we are a nation which has been suppressed by the state. so we will build a nationalism that doesn't suppress people, right? We saw the same thing with Kurdish people, right, with the Kurdish freedom movement. Their understanding, I would say, was more advanced than the Catalans,

and that their analysis was, we are a nation that has been suppressed for multiple states, and therefore we will build society without the state in order to literally create the world where there is no boot, so we can't trade on people, right? I still believe that that is possible, but like in the last, six months, you know, I've seen people back away from that within Kurdistan, right, and start talking again about the Brotherhood of People's was a mistake. They feel betrayed. I don't think those people, like, consider themselves to be superior, but they feel that their project didn't work. That really makes me sad. Ultimately, the Brotherhood of Nations, like, didn't succeed in Syria, right?

And we've seen it effectively at, like, Syria's still called the Syrian Arab Republic after hundreds of thousands of people. gave their lives for it to be a place where everyone could be free. And yeah, it really saddens me to see that that like, like I really hoped for something better, this idea of like Brotherhood of Nations, which acknowledges people's difference, but it doesn't create a hierarchy. But we're not, we haven't made it quite work yet, I guess. And I guess we live in a world, right, where the, where they appeal to nationalism and bigotry and the idea, like specifically in Syria, I think,

that like Arabs should not be equal to Kurds was appealing through making that appeal. This project was able to be sabotaged, I guess. Yeah. I think that while we're still forging different approaches to liberation, trying to figure out what that looks like, we've seen the track record of nationalism, is my point. Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's fair. Like, it's been used much more as a force for dividing us.

in making us hate each other than it has been for creating a world war we can all live together alongside each other. Yeah. This is a digression, but in my experience in Trinidad, what I've noticed is that there are efforts to kind of construct, and they have been since the establishment of Trinidad as an independent country Transvagal as an independent country in 1962, first led by Dr. Eric Williams, There were efforts to kind of build this kind of cross-racial, like overarching, like Trindadian, Trinbigonian identity,

which, I mean, I use that term Trinbago in some of my work. But Tobago is kind of attached to Trindade against their will. And even now, there are people who try to push that Trin-Bago unity. but there are also people who will assert, particularly people from Tobago, who will assert that, yeah, no, we want greater autonomy, we want even independence from Trinidad.

And so for maybe certain people unifying purposes, I would use the term, but I try not to give off that impression that I'm using it for a kind of unifying nationalism. Because I think with the nationalism of such a young, quote-unquote, nation, a nation of nations, of various people from all over the world,

mostly brought here against their will. Yeah. There are these competitions, I think, over the proportionality of the representation of different racial ethnic groups, the competitions over who gets to define what this Trinidadian nation is, what it means to be a Trinidadian, and efforts to kind of balance or imbalance the proportion of representation depending on which government is in power. You know, our current government is very much oriented toward a kind of Indo-Turnda, an Indian focus and have in many ways marginalized all other groups, maligned, all other

groups, disrespected, all other groups within the country to kind of elevate the sense of or get back for the Indian people in Trinidad. And I don't want to go too much down that road talking about that, but it's just another examples me of the frustration and misdirection that comes with investment in nationalism, which currently holds a monopoly both here and in much of the world on narratives of liberation and antichlonial resistance. It's almost treated as if anti-clonial resistance is synonymous with nationalism, as though the two cannot be distinguished. It should be a relic of the 20th century, right? It was heavily tied to like state socialism, right? The idea of

the way that we fight the wrongs of colonialism is through creating post-colonial nation states and ignoring the fact that many of those states, many of the boundaries, they find themselves within, include a diverse range of identities. Like you said, of many people, including those bought against their will to those places. And that many of those identities don't line up with national identities and it almost always results in a change of the oppression rather than the absence of oppression. Yeah, I mean, you could literally just look at the entire history of independent Nigeria. Yes. But one very clear example of that. Yeah. But getting back to the comparisons, right, I don't see an explicitly titled ideology behind the founding of Liberia,

beyond settler colonialism, I suppose. But the implicit ideology was the supremacy of the elite American-Liberian way of life and the right to that territory and the labor and the resources of its people, while the elite would themselves be subordinate to the global Catalyst Order, dictated particularly by America and Europe.

So the supremacy of the American Liberian elite did not place them in a position of supremacy in the global stage. they were still in a subordinate position in some ways. Turning now to Israel, the political Zionist movement emerged into late 19th century Europe amid pogroms and the failure to achieve equality for Jews in many countries. Its most influential illy theorist, Theodore Hutzel, argue that Jews constituted a nation and that anti-Semitism could not ultimately be solved through integration into European societies.

instead they required a state of their own. And Palestine was not initially the only territory under consideration. Various proposals included Argentina, Uganda, and other locations before Palestine became firmly established as the movement's focus. Not all Jews agreed with this political Zionist cause. In fact, many Jewish socialists, particularly those associated with the general Jewish labor bond, rejected Zionism altogether. They argued the Jewish should be.

fight for liberation where they lived rather than establishing a separate nation state. Nevertheless, the Zionist colonial settlement efforts began and expanded in Palestine through the late 19th and early 20th centuries, aided by wealthy benefactors, land purchases from absentee landlords, and growing immigration. The movement received a major boost in 1917 when the British government issued the Balfour Declaration, expressing support for the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, despite the fact that Palestine's Arab population constituted the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants at the time. As settlement expanded, Zionist narratives increasingly emphasized the idea of return. The Jews were not colonizing a foreign

land, but returning to an ancestral homeland from which they had been dispersed centuries before. And the state of Israel was officially established in 1948, accompanied by the Nakhba or catastrophe, when more than 700,000 Palestinians were displaced or expelled from their homes across Palestine. Like Liberia before, Israel emerged as a state founded by a population claiming a historic connection to the territory. And like Liberia, his legitimacy would be built upon narratives of return, civilization, and nationhood, while the indigenous inhabitants found themselves excluded from the political order being constructed on top of their home. Pride Month, Toronto.

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The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called Hey Jonas. We've here, since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far. And now our good friend Nile Horn is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It was the same thing with Slow Hands.

Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good can't be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe. Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. June is Black Music Month, and on the Drink Chams podcast, we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Sway Lee.

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I directed when the Nas is early videos Which one? One love. Wow! I literally filmed in his apartment in Queensbridge. His moms were still up in that apartment. Nause was just beginning to take off. His pops used to live near me in Harlem.

His dad introduced him to a whole lot of, you know, conscious stuff, and he made a young prodigy. No matter the era, Drink Chams brings you the biggest names and the most unfiltered conversations. Listen to Drink Chams from the Black Effect Podcast Network, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Why is everyone obsessed with romance right now? Like everyone?

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Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, already, these situations aren't exactly one-to-one, but they don't need to be to apply a settler colonial analysis. The key questions for ascertaining settler colonialism are if the settlers established permanent residents, if they claimed political sovereignty, if they dominated indigenous populations,

if they created institutions that privileged settlers, basically, what was the political and social order that emerged after they arrived and who was elevated and degraded by it. For Liberia, the answer becomes pretty clear once we look at how the new state was organized. Over the course of the 19th century, American-Liberian settlements expanded their territory

through a mixture of politices, treaties, coercion, military expeditions, and outright warfare with indigenous peoples, who made up the overwhelming majority of the population but were largely excluded from political life. For generations, they lacked a meaningful representation in government and were treated as subjects to be administered. The settler elite monopoly state institutions and eventually established what was effectively a one-party

under the True Wake Party, which ruled Liberia for over a century. The Liberian state extracted taxes and tribute from indigenous communities, relied on indigenous labor, and by the early 20th century, international investigations were uncovering systems of forced labor and human trafficking so severe that they generated an international scandal. While the settlers themselves had once been victims of slavery and racial oppression, they recreated similar class and ethnic hierarchies in their state. Liberia, of course, differs from many other settler colonies, but they retained the basic framework of a settler population claiming sovereignty over territory

inhabited by indigenous peoples and concentrating political and economic power in its own hands. Now compare this to Israel. From the late 19th century onward, Zionist organizations acquired land through purchases and violence. Following the Nakhpah, which created one of the largest refugee populations in the modern world, the Palestinians which remained within Israel was subjected to military administration for years, while Palestinians in the occupied territories continue to live under a, a different legal regime than Israeli settlers. The 1952 citizenship law and the 2018 nation-state law

cemented the Jewish supremacist heart of the Zionist project. And since 1967, settlement expansion in the West Bank had steadily increased, accompanied by land seizures, home demolitions, restrictions on movement, and the fragmentation of Palestinian communities. And Gaza has been an open-air prison where settlers occasionally Mo the Lawn, aka slaughter population,

since 2007. It's worth noting a major difference between the two cases, which is the demographic element. America Liberians remained a small minority ruling a much larger indigenous population, but the entire history of American Liberian ruled Liberia.

Those kind of demographics are more akin to settler societies like South Africa, Rhodesia, and French Algeria, which leaned heavily into the exploitation aspect of colonialism. Israel developed differently, intentionally, to ensure that Jewish people became the demographic majority within its territory, so it's more comparable to settler societies like the US, Canada, and Australia. Such demographics necessarily led to a difference in how indigenous peoples were managed between projects.

Liberia's system depended upon indigenous labor, while Israel's project has generally prioritized secure land while minimizing dependence on Palestinian labor. In many periods of Zionist history, Palestinian labor was actively displaced in favor of exclusively Jewish labor. But again, settler colonialism operates according to a logic of elimination. That might often be expulsion and extermination,

but it can also mean assimilation, confinement, and wherever else. Again, the settlers want the land. the native becomes an obstacle, and different set of the societies developed different methods for dealing with that obstacle. The U.S. had its ethnic cleansings, removals, reservation system, and boarding schools. Australia had frontier wars, stolen generations, and land dispossessions. Canada had assimilation policies like reservation schools. South Africa, under white rule, couldn't expel the black majority, so they maintained apartheid,

controlled reservations and extracted labor. But again, what matters for defining settler colonialism is that indigenous sovereignty is displaced and settler control over the land is secured. Of course, indigenous people in all cases do not take this abuse line down. From the very beginning of Liberian settlement, indigenous peoples resisted. The crew, drabo, vai, and numerous other ethnic groups

fought against territorial expansion, taxation, forced labor, and attempts by the Liberian states to extend its authority into the interior. And despite generations of American-Liberian dominance, indigenous resistance never entirely disappeared. Eventually, the political order that had governed Liberia for over a century began to crack. Economic crisis, corruption, and growing resentment towards settler domination culminated in a military coup in 1980, led by Samuel Aldo, overthrowing the government of President William Tolbert,

and ending more than a century of uninterrupted American-Liberian political dominance. Now, that coup clearly did not create a free or egalitarian society. Liberia would soon face dictatorship, civil war, and immense suffering. But it did mark the collapse of the old settler elites monopoly on state power, and efforts at recovery in the country are ongoing. Palestinian resistance, on the other hand, faced a very different trajectory. From the beginning of Zionist settlement, Palestinians resisted displacement and land loss through protests, strikes, political organizing and armed revolt.

The Great Arab Revolt of 1936 to 1939 saw Palestinians launch a massive strike and uprising against both British colonial rule and Zionist settlement. Decades later came the first and second indifadaes. Mass movements are combined protests, civil disobedience, community organized and armed resistance. Palestinians have built a number of institutions alongside international solidarity movements in an effort to sustain their efforts under occupation, siege, exile, and apartheid. Even today, amid the destruction and genocide of Gaza, Palestinian resistance continues. Liberia and Israel are both settled colonial projects, but they are different enough in scale and goals and methods and historical development that obviously treating them as equivalent would be misleading. The point of the comparison is to identify what these societies have in common. Since the coup in Liberia, the old American-Liberian elite has lost its monopoly on power,

but in Israel, the settler-Kulner project is alive and well, with ever-expaned settlements, occupation, displacement, and brutality. Whether settler dominance in Israel remains or falls is yet to be seen. In Liberia, the end of settler rule to not automatically bring justice, equality, or freedom. The liberation through state power has not brought their relief, especially in the context of a global capitalist order. The replacement of one ruling class for another

has not ended the struggle, but maybe put a semicolon on that struggle. I believe the aim of decolonization must be not merely the fight against the people at the helm of the system, but the very helm of the system itself, dismantling the structures that make domination possible in the first place. For Palestine and for all people's struggling against oppression, ending settler colonialism is only the beginning in the pursuit of liberation.

And that's all I have for today. All power to all the people. Peace. It could happen here is a production of Cool Zone Media. from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, Coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. All right, listen up. The Jonas Brothers here. Our podcast is called, Hey Jonas. We've here, since everyone has a podcast, we want it to as well. And we've had some incredible guests so far.

And now our good friend, Nile Horn, is joining the show. How's it going, boys? Hey, Niall. It's the same thing with Slow Hands. Slow Hands is not about anything else, really, is it? You know, or taste so good, can be about food. You do the same, Nick, with some of the stuff that you've done. You too, Joe.

Drop what you're doing and listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Happy Pride from the Outspoken Podcast Network. All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original. It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships and adulting. Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes

and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity key keys, check out outlaws with T.S. Madison. Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem. And start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July.

Celebrate Pride with the Outspoken Network. Open your free IHeart Radio app. Search Pride and listen now. Here at the Happiness Lab, we're serving up some hot takes for the summer. Big ideas that just might reshape how you think about your well-being. Like the radical notion that we should get rid of small talk completely.

We talk about current events. We talk about what you do for a living. But not, do you love what you do for a living? Is this your dream job? For more surprising ideas backed by psychological science, check out our new series, Happiness Hot Takes. Listen to the Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You think you're in control until you realize you're not. As they're having this gun battle, thousands of feet up in the air, many of the bullets start to puncture the aircraft. I thought we were going to die then. The Knife is a podcast about the moment ordinary lives take an unexpected turn. Real people, real stories, and the split second that changes everything. New episodes drop every Thursday on the Exactly Right Network and the IHeart Podcast Network. Listen to The Knife on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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