It Could Happen Here - The Anatomy of a Moral Panic Ft. Dr. Julia Serano

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Mia and Gare are once again joined by Dr, Julia Serano to discuss how the concept of contagious stigma drives moral panics against cis and trans people alikeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking musica, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra

gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm your host, Mio Wong. I am happy to be here once again with Call zone media. a bit one of the really bleak aspects of being trans in a hostile world is that we've we've effectively been forced to become experts in the architects of our own extermination and i think that's a lot of what kind of the new afterward to the upcoming 2024 30 edition of whipping girl is about so i guess i wanted to ask what do you see as the biggest shifts in sort of the struggle for trans liberation between the end of the sort of Mitch fest, like fighting over Mitch fest era that you wrote, like dream, which you sort of wrote the second, the forward, the preface to the second edition. And then the stuff that's happening now is the sort of third edition is coming out. the stuff that's happening now is the sort of third edition is coming out sure i think a huge aspect of trans activism from my perspective of like first coming to

trans communities in the 90s a lot of 90s and zeros era um trans activism was overcoming basically people's ignorance their their lack of awareness about trans people and so and and this is one of the things that you know whipping girl for example there are a lot of bad ideas about trans people that have been circling lading for a long time especially with the culmination of janice raymond's book the transsexual empire in the 19 late 1970s 1979 i think and that influenced a lot of people let's say places like mish fest that had trans women exclusion policies and i felt like during the 90s through the zeros we were constantly making gains that was largely due to people learning more about us and then recognizing basically shared goals, shared things in common. I think that trans people are marginalized because of, you know, mainstream assumptions

about sex, gender, sexuality. And those assumptions also hurt LGBTQIA plus people more broadly. They hurt, you know, in a sexist world, they hurt, you know, cis women, you know, all women, all people who move through the world perceived as female and feminine so we all have this kind of shared yeah thing that we're working towards and i feel like that was where a lot of the progress was happening and i think what really changed in the mid-2010s especially 2000 year 2015 which is literally the year after the so-called tipping point, Time magazine declaring the transgender tipping point, was when it was the beginning of what I

would describe as organized anti-trans activism, where it wasn't just that people didn't like us or they detested us, but it was where there was actual coordination between different groups in in the afterward i describe there's the social conservatives and far right who have always been anti-lgbtq plus who took um an even more intense focus on trans people. There were groups that at the time that I wrote Whipping Girl, the term TERF wasn't around or the term gender critical wasn't around. Now we would call them gender critical or trans exclusionary feminists. They've become kind of a part of that. And both those groups working together in a lot of ways on policies.

I think one of the things that the average person might not know if you're not really highly aware of trans communities and issues is that probably behind the scenes, the anti-transparent movement has probably made more of an impact than any other group, and they're very much like the anti-vax parent movement, where it's a lot of people who are, you know, from their standpoint, they're just concerned about their children, they want what's best for their children, but they actively seek out

and often get involved in, you know, websites, social media forums, and sometimes actual activist campaigns that buy into a lot of ideas of children being indoctrinated into gender ideology or being infected by social contagion. And there's all this pseudoscience that grows out of that. So I would say that that was the main difference, that there was this organized campaign,

and this campaign has just grown and grown and grown to the point now where it's just this astoundingly large moral panic that the types of things that 30% of people in our country believe about trans people is abhorrent, but that's kind of how it played out yeah i mean there's there's been a lot of a lot of very common weird pseudoscience myths that sort of came out of that i wanted to talk a little bit about quote-unquote rapid

onset gender dysphoria because that's been all over the place i mean there's like a new york times article talking about it like two weeks ago and it's i don't know really been a fiasco especially given how unbelievably tenuous the the stuff they sort of faked or not as they fake like unbelievably tenuous the like quote-unquote study they did that got retracted was yeah and this is something that i actually um saw developing firsthand and then did research on in 2019 so let me frame this i'll tell like my personal a short version of my oral history of this so it was around 2017 that i first heard the idea of of children you know becoming trans because of social contagion and it just seemed to come out of the blue and it's like what you know it's gender identity is not contagious um if it was like

you know trans people would have infected way more than like the less than 1% of us that actually exists. Not a very effective contagion as far as contagion scale. 30% and rising, like, no. Yes. Yeah, exactly. It's like once you start looking at it, it seems kind of ridiculous. A lot of it was because, well, you well you know you know my kid was hanging around a trans person or started watching trans videos on youtube and now they're trans it's like yeah

well maybe they were hanging out with that trans friend and watching the youtube videos because they are trans and they just hadn't come out yet or they're just they're still figuring it out anyway so in 2018 is when the lisa litman paper on rapid onset gender dysphoria came out and i wrote this essay at the time talking about all the things wrong with it and then in 2019 i'm like where did these ideas come from and i should say that rapid onset gender dysphoria is basically transgender social contagion wrapped up in a medical sounding diagnosis okay so if you read the the initial descriptions of transgender social contagion and the description of rapid onset gender dysphoria they're basically the same it's that kids are infecting one another but um the idea of rapid onset gender dysphoria

was meant to describe this quick infection of transness that supposedly was happening. And so in 2019, I basically did a deep dive. I'm not an investigative reporter, but that's kind of what I did into like where the origin of this was. And basically all of this kind of came down to the website Fourth Wave Now, which often worked in coordination with two other anti-transparent websites. So Fourth coordination with two other anti-transparent websites so fourth wave now is an anti-transparent website arguably the very first one that that came out and a parent posted the idea that her child was like being infected by transgender social contagion and it's almost definitely clear now i will leave a little caveat even though i think

the evidence is pretty strong that that was lisa marciano who is a anti-trans therapist who's very very involved in anti-trans activism right now okay so and like all everything points to that being her and she also seems to have in some capacity worked with Lisa Lippman. So basically the first paper about rapid onset gender dysphoria that came out was not Lisa Lippman's. It was actually Lisa Marciano's, which came out in 2017. So basically kind of grew from these anti-transparent websites. It really quickly within six months, not only was lisa litman doing her survey lisa litman being someone who has no experience in trans health ever before then just decides to go in and only survey parents from an anti from three anti-transparent websites and it gets taken very

seriously just because the the media fanned the flames a lot of these groups were very excited to have something that seemed to be a case study on their side the paper was heavily critiqued when it came out there are now and i described this in uh an online essay i have it's free if you google my name and all the evidence against social contagion it's's in there. There are now 10 papers that have tested the idea of rapid-onset gender dysphoria and or social contagion and found evidence that contradicts the hypothesis. So it's still being talked about that Pamela Paul. It was an op-ed that looked like an article in the New York Times. It's not the first time Pamela Paul and or the New York Times has done this.

They seem to have a particular axe to grind against trans people and putting out specious articles suggesting that gender-affirming care, especially for trans youth, is bad when actually all the evidence points to the opposite so so yeah that's a brief discussion of rapid onset gender dysphoria which i think is the most popular of these kind of pseudo-scientific ideas but there are definitely others there are like about

like four or five others that i could get into and i do get into in the afterward and in some of my other writings but uh yeah and and you know i don't use the word pseudo-scientific lightly basically there's like science which is where different research groups try to answer a particular question and if they all get similar answers then that becomes okay well that seems to be established now let's work from there and ask more questions and do more studies junk science is when you do kind of a crappy study that doesn't really interrogate all the possibilities that either doesn't use controls or or you know only looks at you know a bias sampling size or a bias sample or small sample sizes and comes to a conclusion that it wants to come to that's junk science and then pseudoscience is when multiple independent groups

all find something different to what you're saying but you keep touting the thing you're saying is science and that's definitely where ROGd is right now same thing with one of these ideas that i talked about way back early in whipping girl and i've written other you know both academic papers and online essays about um this concept of autogynephilia which is this really old theory that just like it's kind of like this zombie it doesn't matter how many groups find evidence to the contrary contrary it jibes with what basically certain you know gender disaffirming practitioners practitioners and researchers and anti-trans activists it jibes with what they want to say so it just kind of continues to be out there so yeah yeah i mean something that

garrison we were talking about before this is the extent to which the extent to which the the rapid onset gender dysphoria study is almost exactly the same study as the first anti-vax study like it has it has almost exactly the same it's the same thing where you you find a group of people who think their kid has autism because they got vaccinated or you find a group of people who think their kids are trans because social contagion or something and then you ask them about it and then you report the results of the study and it's like well now and you report the results of you asking the people the thing that they believe and now it's a study and it's it's i don't know it drives me insane the extent to which it is literally exactly the same thing

yeah I mean that was something so I didn't know this until uh h bomber guy who's a youtuber who does really good investigations and video essays and uh I saw his autism and so this is something that you know I remember I'm old enough to remember the Wakefield paper being in the news and then you hear lots of people debunking it and then it's officially retracted and basically all you know the scientific field has settled that it's like vaccines do not cause autism a lot of that is is just like a coincidence of the time that you first start noticing that children may be autistic is like right around the time after they've had vaccinations but but yeah it wasn't until the h bomber guy video that he talks about that the

wakefield study is a study of parents not the children a study of the parents and the parents already had were already suspicious of the vaccines and so they said oh well it happened right after they had these vaccines um just like rapid onset gender dysphoria happens oh it happened right after you know one of my child's peer their peers came out as trans it's like yeah maybe they're connected maybe that's why they're good friends you know most of my friends you know like when i go out and stuff like that you know a huge chunk of my friends way higher than the average person are trans people yeah and it's not because any of us infected each other it's just

that you have that thing in common you also really importantly when you're part of a stigmatized group being around other people who won't stigmatize you often because they're a part of that same group that can be really freeing and really supportive so yeah yeah so we need to take another ad break but when we come back there will be more i don't know i'm really i'm really kind of blowing the ad pivots on this one i'm very sorry hi i'm ed zitron host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search,

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and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko.

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So I guess speaking of moral panics. Speaking of social contagions. Yes, moral panics are always very socially contagious. Yeah, it's really, truly, really, truly. They have described their own ideology and then projected it onto everyone else. So one of the things that you talk about both in the afterward and in sexed up is about the relationship between stigma and contagion and how it's this powerful, incredibly powerful force for mobilizing moral panics. Can you explain sort of how that works? Sure.

Yeah. So, um, and this was something that when I was first working on Sexed Up, it wasn't kind of my idea. I didn't think I was going to write about the concept of stigma that much, but it really ended up being very central the more kind of research I did into it. And so I think most of us are familiar with the idea of stigma in terms of feeling embarrassment or being made to feel lesser than other people because of some aspect of your person, right? And there is that aspect of it that's often called, like, felt stigma. But then there's the way that other people view stigma, right? And so, you know, people aren't

necessarily stigmatized in that way themselves. they might view people who are stigmatized in particular ways. And one aspect of stigma that I learned a lot of this from psychologists, I think it's Paul Rosen, I know the last name is Rosen, and also Carol Nemiroff, and they both worked together and they had other colleagues who worked on this. But a lot of this comes from this really unconscious idea of contagion that seems to be, it's like pan-cultural. It's just kind of a way that people tend to view the world, kind of like a lot of people and a lot of cultures have essentialist views. Contagion is sort of along those lines. It's often described as a type of magical thinking and the idea is if something in your mind has this contagion if you get too close to it or

you interact with it it can like permanently corrupt or taint you and so it has this kind of contagious like property in people's minds. And so people often view groups who are stigmatized, especially groups that are highly stigmatized, as essentially contagious, where that stigma that they have could rub off of like if you were friends with a trans person a lot of times people or even someone who was gay back then um people be like oh so what are you you must be gay too right it's almost as if that stigma would then like kind of migrate to you and that's a lot of why stigmatized groups face a lot of ostracization in society and so so this idea of contagion has been around, I think, groups who are lesser stigmatized. One of the ways that that plays out is they're viewed as less contagious. So, you know, when I was really young, the idea of if

you had a trans person in your life, people would really question you. Whereas by the time I came out, you could have a trans friend and that would be fine it wouldn't necessarily be contagious unless of course you were interested in them and then that stigma would if you were like attracted to them then there's that stigma and I think that stigma plays a lot into kind of dynamics of and I've read about this in sexed up that the whole idea of like fetishes and chasers and all that that's basically all this stigma contagion stuff playing out in different ways anyway so uh i also think that and i write about in sex up i think people view sex and stigma as really closely intertwined such that i think people view the average person views heterosexual sex as a stigma

contamination act where the male is the corrupting force and it's the woman who is corrupted by sex which is why you know virgins are pure but then once a woman has sex she's like you know she's become contaminated or tainted and as she has a lot of sex then people view her as like ruined right so so that idea is built in there and i think this combination of viewing sex and stigma is kind of intertwined leads to the sexual predator the sexual predator stereotype that we're seeing play out in really strong ways with trans people right now but actually if you look throughout history like a lot of marginalized groups like deal in different ways with the sexual predator trope and so i think this really clearly plays out with the the kind of

what i call the groomer explosion that started in 2022, where, you know, people were accusing trans people being groomers before then, but it really exploded in 2022. And if you listen to what people are saying, they're using the word groomer, which sounds like a sexual predator thing, like there's a real thing of grooming children that sexual abusers do. But they're using it against trans people in a way that has nothing to do with that but what they're talking about is corrupting you know so their children who are presumed to be cisgender um are and who often i think this is why a lot of these anti-trans discourses continue to paint like trans children as being girls right like because then it kind of plays

into these feelings of like you know transgender people are the adult men corrupting young girls it plays into a lot of people's view like messed up messed up heteronormative views of sex and and fears of you know sexual abuse child abuse being a very real thing but people greatly misinterpret it so that the people who are the usual perpetrators which are usually you know by and large straight men who are like adults who are close or sometimes even family members of the child in question but like when they say grooming they just mean corrupting or contaminating and i think that both grooming and social contagion i think both of these basically play off of this stigma contamination idea right the kids are pure but then transgender is like a type of cooties that if one kid becomes

trans then they spread it to the other kids and so yeah and so i i feel like it plays a really big role not only in moral panics which almost all moral panics are there's some kind of corrupting force that is often attacking otherwise pure and innocent children um sometimes it's technology right and so people be like oh we have to ban you know social media apps you know because it's hurting the children or it could be transgender people who are the things we need to ban because they're corrupting the children but i definitely think that both these ideas of stigma and contagion play a big role in the way in which moral panics what why they resonate with a lot of people even though they don't make any rational sense um if you just

think about them kind of from a very realistic yeah practical point of view and we have to go to ads but we'll be back in a second hi i'm ed zitron host of the better offline podcast and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned silicon valley into a playground for billionaires from the chaotic world of generative ai to the destruction of google search better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong though, I love technology, I just hate the people

in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating.

I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now, and I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend and I found his his char in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. I have very overbearing parents, even at the age of 29.

They don't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, search for therapy gecko on the I app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead,

now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. And we're back this is something that you mentioned briefly in the uh afterward and that's something that we've reported on is how a lot of this groomer thing that started in 2022 and a whole bunch of this kind of modern wave of transphobia is mirroring a lot of the anti-gay stuff from like the 80s uh that was pushed forward by a lot of the anti-gay stuff from like the 80s that was pushed forward by a lot of like evangelicals and into just like mainstream conservatism and specifically how it functions as this yeah this is sort of like moral panic and even social contagion the way the way uh

homosexuality was treated as as this thing and this this sort of social contagion aspect is so common now i mean even even the way we've already alluded to musk even the way he mentions like the woke mind virus is is is exactly this thing and it's really like moral panics and stuff right this this was kind of predated by the critical race theory debacle uh which then got you know turned into the groomer thing and it is now the dei thing yeah exactly and and now it's even changed again. And these moral panics can have like devastating results in terms of pushing forward legislation that outlasts the actual moral panic. But the actual things themselves are very short lived.

They don't seem to have very much like staying power as as as like cultural moments. They move on so quickly, like no one talks about critical race theory anymore. You don't even hear this sort of groomer rhetoric as often as you did two years ago. It's being replaced by new versions. And yeah, like Mia said, the DEI thing is the current thing that is wrecking American society, if you ask about maybe one third of the population. But yeah, how do you feel about the life cycle of these population. But yeah, how do you feel about like the life cycle of these moral panics and how they relate to like the social contagion aspect?

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with what you're also, all the things you're citing that like, I think these are all different variations of kind of the same idea. And I do really appreciate the idea of the woke mind virus as being kind of like the perfect like the exemplar of this yeah in that you know people were you know people were complaining about you know stuff being woke for a while and you know it it is usually it's often coded as

something that's woke is like anti-racist or you you know, is something like, it's very much associated, you know, infused with like, when people complain about wokeism, a lot of times they're like, they're racist or they're, or at the very least, they have fears about kind of the corruption of pure whiteness being corrupted by increasing, you know, people of color and, you know, like making gains in society, right? But the woke mind virus, because no one could really explain what woke is, because then it keeps shifting and it refers to trans people or critical race theory, et cetera. And the woke mind virus is like perfect because that's how they think it all works like it's just this thing

that infects people especially children and the way in which there is a recent thing just today i think it was ackerman the billionaire who's been involved in a lot of this dei stuff um complaining about his child being infected in college with marxism and elon musk had similar issues with his trans daughter like becoming pro-marx or anti-capitalists and so they just assume that like no my child was pure but now they're infected it's like well maybe there are other ideas out there that are better than your idea yeah and maybe that's all it is but but yeah so i think in all of these cases yes i think that there's this idea of a contagion or corruption often involving children and it is yeah a lot of the moral panic a lot of the literature

like the social sciences literature on moral panics, they often describe them as fleeting. You know, this one, the anti-trans one isn't fleeting enough right now from my perspective, but people will tend to kind of move on. Like the satanic panic of the eighties, you know, like that was a really big deal. And then all of a sudden it was just gone and no one ever talked about it again. I think the difference here is that a lot of these moral panics are really tied together with what's happening in the country more generally with anti-democratic and authoritative, you know, views coming from, you know views coming from you know particularly the the right wing of the country you know like one of the two major political parties it's really pushing a lot of um just

generally across the board you know they're against feminism they're you know against people of color against lgbtq plus people and i think it's all wrapped up into the same thing i think that while individual parts of the moral panic may go away they may talk about critical race theory for a bit and then shift to trans people being groomers then shift to dei but i think a lot of this is they're all intertwined and actually I think that's like the last couple paragraphs of the afterword I talk about that as a potentially good thing because even though it's been a harrowing time to be a trans person with all the anti-trans legislation and all the anti-trans news stories um all the pushes back on gender affirming care despite all that i think the good thing is that

i think there are clear sides here and i think while this wasn't true early on in the anti-trans backlash in the like late 2010s i think most people realize now that all these things are tied together from like kind of the, you know, the right wing perspective in this country is just against all these things. You know, they want a white Christian straight minority of people running everything about this country. And so I think the rest of us really need to recognize that and work together to defeat that.

Yeah. I mean, I i think i think that's a pretty good place to end on do you uh do you unless you have anything else that you wanted to make sure you get in no i mean i feel like we touched we covered a bunch of the book past present and hopefully future being better than the present right now hopefully hopefully hopefully yes so okay where can people find a the new uh the the new edition of whipping girl and b you and your work on the internet and or other places sure yeah so the book should be available so it's available for pre-order right now so you can do that through like you know online places i often suggest people go to the seal press my publisher because they give lots of options there but you can also go to your local independent bookstore and say hey i'd like the

pre-order this book and they will do that for you so the book will be available everywhere and should be in stores starting in march um As for me, my website, juliasarano.com, particularly if you go to the writings page there, I have like literally links to everything I've written online over the years. So it's kind of a clearinghouse of free writings of mine. There are also links to my books there. And then if you're looking for me on social media, I'm julia serrano on most platforms that i'm at i don't know how much stronger i can possibly recommend reading whipping girl it had i don't know it had an enormous impact on me when i first read it and yeah it will it

will it will do good things for you if you read it too. Yeah, and it's all still incredibly relevant. Like I was breezing through like 50 pages just to refresh my memory this morning. And I'm like, oh wow, so many of the like inter-community trans discourses that are constantly happening have already been addressed like 20 years ago. So many of like, all the time I spend

trying to write about like uh transmisogyny i'm like oh i i forgot this is already like all like written down like i spent so long writing about the daily wire movie and like oh this is art all this work's already been done i can just like stop oh man uh yeah, cannot recommend enough. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thank you all for the kind words. Yeah, thank you for having me, and it was great. And thanks for all you do, too.

Oh, thank you. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com. Thanks for listening. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Thanks for listening. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from.

Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking musica, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight-up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra gente can sprinkle.

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