It Could Happen Here - The Campaign to Bust Chicago’s Only Bookstore Union

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Mia talks with Ez and Finnly of the Seminary Co-op Booksellers Union about black mold, bad management, and how union busting works like an abusive relationship. https://www.instagram.com/semcoopbooksellersunion/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Call Zone Media Welcome to Iqadap here A podcast Reunion Good and not everything that is called co-op is good. Sometimes they're not actually really co-ops. I am your host, Mia Wong. And today we are joined by

the people struggling on the tyrannical fist of a co-op a thing that shouldn't be possible, and yet, somehow. Yeah. Yeah. So we were talking today with Ez and Finley, who are booksellers at the Seminary Co-op in Chicago, and yeah, we are welcoming the union back to the show. And dear God, what a disaster.

What a year it has been. Well, it's really great to me, fan. I wish we were back with slightly better news. or more movements since we were last here, certainly. Yeah. Because when we last spoke, we had just sort of theatrically announced to our management that we were an organized shop with the IWW, and we were going to be bargaining with them for better wages

and humane working conditions for us all. And they were like, yeah, you're a union. We so recognize that. and then they have sat on their hands ever since. Yeah, so let's roll back all the way to the beginning and explain a little bit about what the seminary co-op is for people who weren't here. How many years ago was that now? That must have been last year.

Yeah, it was a while ago. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the seminary co-op is a set of two bookstores in Hyde Park, the Seminary Co-op Bookstore, which is a misnomer on two out of three counts. It's not a seminar anymore. It's not a co-op anymore. It is still a bookstore, although it is a not-for-profit

bookstore, which is a mysterious category of business that doesn't exist anywhere else. Baffling. Yeah. Briefly, just to interject, I do think when I would announce events and sort of give this exact breakdown for audiences, like I said not-for-profit bookstore whose mission is book selling, right? And when I was hired, like about three months before we announced we were unionizing, the way it was put to me was other not-for-profit bookstores. They do a lot with like family literacy or like specifically around women's issues. But that was just like acknowledgement of the reality that bookstores don't make a whole lot of money. And what we are providing is a not-for-profit bookstore is just the browsing experience. We kept books on shelves

for too long. It just, it seemed like a, like, a really romantic idea of bookselling that didn't have, like, a whole lot of legs underneath it, so to speak. Yeah. So it is nonsense, I would say. But that's me. Just be a library. Like, I, we have this. It's called libraries. Say you're a really big bookstore. Just, I don't know. It's, it was vague. Yeah. Baffling. Baffling. Yes. Yeah. And then I guess, like, the second part of it is like, when they say it's a co-op, what does that mean? It means truly, and as can speak to this more,

that it was founded by Chicago Theological Seminary students. And there was a reason for that. Yeah, like they did want to buy horse books at the prices that retailers got them wholesale. And so the thought was, I forget their names, but we have the pictures of them. It was like A. Kavanaugh or something. But these two guys, just, you know,

if you were a student at Chicago Theological Seminary, for even like a student at one of the other divinity seminaries nearby, you just put an amount of money and you were part of, like you got your course book cheaper, you know, and under like a specific manager who came like a couple decades after that, like then it really became like, this is the neighborhood bookstore. This is part of like, as they say,

like the intellectual and sort of cultural life of the university. But yeah, at one point it was a cooperative because like you were a member and you got your course books cheaper because you, you know, had a certain amount of shares in the books, but yeah, it was, I think, smarter, not harder kind of scheme. And then when they dissolved the, like, ownership shares and stopped being a co-op, that was 2019 when they organized as this not-for-profit. It's not a 501c3. They don't have non-profit status. It's this slightly different thing. And so one of the one things that has happened in the past

year is we had an interim director who got us, like, basically a nonprofit sponsor who lends it's 501c3 status to other organizations and allows you to take tax deductible donations. But like up to that point, we couldn't do that because we were not a legitimate nonprofit. We were this other thing. Yeah. So since 2019, it's been that. And then since 2024, it's been that plus Chicago's standalone unionized bookstore. For now, we're hoping that others follow.

Inshallah, they will. Yes. I feel like it is not a great sign of your business being well-run when you are doing a thing that like rookie activist campaigns do when they're like, oh shit, we got a bunch of money we need to borrow someone else's 501

C's three status like Yeah Great great job management Like incredible stuff And like for me Part of what's been so like Just mind-boggling is like The not-for-profit bookstore, whose mission is bookselling, does sort of give this, you know, if we're like a 501c3, who often doesn't, they don't turn a profit or they do, they reinvest it back into the operations they're doing. But like part of, and we can talk more about this as we get into like the bargaining, but like store financials have been so obscured. And I hate from like, truly, truly hate from a linguistic standpoint, just sort of the subtle like, oh, we must not be doing well. Because to me, that feels like the rhetoric that really justifies the pact that I'm.

paid $16.90 an hour and I have a Masters of Divinity from the seminary of the seminary co-op. Yeah, well, and I think it's also worth noting that like even from the perspective of capital, like, all of the giant tech companies didn't make money for

like decades. And all those motherfuckers were walking off with like a hundred billion dollar payouts, you know, like they only ever started making money when they started like reeling in a bunch of government contracts for like web services and like defense contract and shit. It's like, I don't know, like, this is, I guess on topic, but it's just something that makes you really mad, where people talk about, like, running the government like a business and then, like, you know, you get like the post office where it's like, oh, the post office doesn't run a profit. It's like, do you know it doesn't run a fucking profit? Uber literally has never run a profit ever. Not once. Not once. Right? Like, it's like, no, like, I'm sorry, welcome, welcome to, welcome to fucking 2025 capitalism. Like, companies don't make profits. They either get contact.

from the government or their entire existence is either conning some venture capitalist dipshits out of all of their money or it's like Peter Thiel has decided that your like surveillance camera company is ideologically important to him taking over the world so he's going to give you one billion

dollars and it's like oh no I'm sorry like our financials aren't good enough for you to pay you it's like motherfucker like have you seen the rest of capitalism like eat shit pay your workers like yeah oh yeah god damn it Well, we keep using that one meme over and over that is, like, we're trying to balance the budget.

It's the drill, the candles. Drill, thank you. Oh, the candles tweet. Yeah, yeah. Because our management is so infuriating, and they also, in the year since we've been bargaining, had an interim director and spent most of his tenure searching for an executive director to take over. That person is being paid $160,000. $1,000 a year to our knowledge. Jesus Christ.

And that's the offer that we know of. We have yet to get his contract, even though we did make a formal information request for it. Yeah. Which is fucked. And it's also like, yeah, like every time these companies are like, oh, we don't have money. And it's like, okay, I can find like an unbelievable amount of money

that you have given to someone to like to give a random non-specific example that has nothing to do with with any company that is in any way related to this show um alive or dead by a bored ape yacht club nfts like this is like they spent $300 on google home speakers for 57 street books and i'm like wow my having that $300 would change my life um but also So, like, you're paying that union-busting lawyer, thousands of dollars that you could be paid in the reverse. Yep. But that's capitalism. Yeah, they have enough money to make your lives miserable, but they apparently never have enough money to, you know, like, make your lives not miserable because they have to spend that money on making your lives miserable. Yeah. And it's so intentional because making us miserable means that they are wearing down the number of people that they have to deal with and making the people who are left.

so tired and so frustrated and so much less capable of fighting them. Yeah. And that feels like just, you know, Finn's leaving. We've also had a number of folks. Like our bargaining unit, like last time y'all spoke last year was like 25 people. Now we're down to 11. And it's they've refused to hire anybody part time or full time. Yeah, of course. But they've been giving seasonal workers sort of like extra hours and that is someone's got to start counting they have like unless they work for 90 days they don't have to and because they're seasonal yada yada they don't really join our union is kind of what i understand why they are not considered eligible but it's like the booksellers are the heart of the store the classification of seasonal workers and particularly of event runners

has been a point of contention throughout negotiations this whole time because obviously from our perspective. We want anyone who's working in the store in any capacity to be involved in the union. We want them to not have this random scab force that they can deploy at will. And that has always been the point that gets revisited over and over again, just when we think we've gotten them locked into being union members. They'll come back with their latest counter. And it's like, actually, I think because of X, Y, and Z that we just changed, they're no longer eligible to join your union. But they did just hire, I think, three people that they were training at 57th Street last week, but they've made no formal announcement to anyone that these people have been hired.

Yeah. I only know that they were, like, in the stores because one of them came to the co-op by mistake instead of 57th Street and was like, oh, I'm one of the new hires. Oh. And so it's unclear if those are the seasonal workers or if those are new hires. Those are, I'll say, the most recent member, like, part-time, full-time member of our staff, who's not me. None of us knew she was hired, and she just came up, took a book right off my cart, and I was like, bitch what, but she, but those, those were event, those were the seasonal workers at the store the other day. Like, I worked one of those Chicago humanities events with them, and it is like, yeah, Ben, they just changed the qualification of who can be in the union.

Yeah. It's been very intentional, and it's been just, like, over. and over. They revisit and reclassify and whittle us down. Yeah. We've done, I think two, since you last spoke, like a couple of work stoppages and then ticketed

outside of our store as well. But that, I don't know, in terms of like sort of regressive bargaining through attrition that we're seeing and that they refuse to hire other people, even though they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot, but just like our direct action has,

I think, worked against what they're thinking. which is that we're tired and that we're not going to fight back and that we are overwhelmed and we don't know what we're doing. But there are a lot of folks who do have, you know, experience with these sort of direct actions, like a work stoppage. And I think it's great that we're wobblies, but also like I do kind of like on the work stoppage how flustered and ups, not like upset, but just how flustered and, yeah, just awkward management feels.

It's empowering for me. Yeah. but it's very much on purpose. Well, and I think that's one of the better says to just like a campaign in the broad sense of continuing direct actions during negotiations is it is

that chance to connect with your coworkers and re-solidify that you're fighting for something intentional in the face of the fact that you will probably start being scheduled more sparsely, you will have fewer opportunities during the workday to talk to people. And like,

That's just stuff that's going to happen while negotiations go on. But, like, making sure that you stay in touch with your union as best you can and, like, show up for all the direct things that you can helps you internally combat that, which is really helpful. Yeah, and I mean, like, you know, like that's something we ran into organizing here was we spent, like, God, I think it was two years bargaining for our contract. And they didn't have the capacity to literally force half the workforce to quit, but like. Well, don't worry.

they don't have the capacity to lose this many people. Those are falling up our own and they are fully how few people they have. This whole thing is just like a really, really common managerial tactic.

Yeah. Which is just like, we're going to make everything unlivable and try to get as many people as we can to quit and then just make everyone else's lives a living hell, which is like,

this is, I think I've said this before, but it's like, the extent to which the strategy is just, the deliberate infliction of terror? Yeah. Well, and the strategy is just tank your business,

which seems incredibly counterintuitive from their perspective. And like there have been events where like it's been a book about like Carl Marx, labor organizing, whether it's a history or like a like sociology book. And folks are like, I waited to buy this book here because it's the union bookstore. And like there is a way that us being a union bookstore could look given like that that folks on our board are really progressive people, like Atam Getichu, like, State Senator Robert Peters, who's like running on a pretty pro-labor background. Like, us being unionized could be, like, we are already a tourist bookstore. Like, folks come from everywhere. Like, this is such

a famous bookstore. But, like, it does baffle me. It does make sense that it's a common tactic, but also there's so much that could work in their favor if they were not just, like, so committed to busting this union. Wait, hold on. Sidebar. A.O. Gritch? She was my professor. Yeah, I talked to her today. Wait, she's just part of the management team now?

No, no, no. There's, okay, so this is part of where... Or is this is like a different thing. Okay, sorry, sorry. This is... Okay, no, no, no. This is where, like, us being a not-for-profit bookstore, but not actually, like, having any legal standing as a not-for-profit gets a little confusing and, like, Finn, you can probably speak more to how this has come up in the bargaining meeting, but when we, I don't know if this was around before,

the cooperative was dissolved and shares were basically, like, worthless at that point. But there is a board of directors, one of whom, like, is very, very famous, and at least among the folks I know, for effectively union vesting employees at Experimental Station on 61st in Blackstone when they try to unionize, right? Oh, Jesus. And also, there are so many, like, hide-part progressives, like RJP, like Edom Gedishu, Eve Ewing, as well. And these are people, people I really respect, but like because there's like this four cabinet, I think, of folks who have been in and out of bargaining meetings. When we've had employees at other labor unions who do have a connection to like, for example, Robert Peters, it does be very clear that like this

governing board, which does govern, they have terms, but we're also a retail outfit. You know, usually like a not for profit, the board of a not for profit would be helping with like an annual fundraising campaign. It's unclear entirely what the board does in a retail outfit, other than, at least in my experience, like giving advice, writing emails to try to bust this union, you know, before we unionized, albeit I had a very short tenure before we had unionized. None of these people, none of their names matter to me, but because like there's so much confusion about, is management going to be representing folks in the bargaining meeting or is it going to be a board member representative? And just who is accountable to

disclose what financial information and when or just any information and when? Like, Yeah. Adam Getichu is not one of our, one of our bosses, but like there is just a lot of confusion that I feel about what the board is responsible for in bargaining and what management feels they're responsible for. And I can clear up a little bit of that because what we were told when we first unionized and when the management team was kind of shifting and reorganizing itself around to the board was the board. is there primarily to advise and supervise and hire the executive director for the stores. And so there is a financial contribution. Like, they're all significant donors. That's part of the way that they secure their seats is making a large donation to the stores.

But then, at least according to them, from that point forward, they have no managerial oversight over the operations of the store whatsoever. It is not their responsibility. They don't make any decisions about the budget. They don't get involved. They don't want to be involved. And they were embarrassed by having this attitude when previous management went off the rails

and nearly drove the store into the ground by buying stock on credit cards. What? It's a whole thing that we do not have to get into. But that's the same of bad ice story. This is... Bonkers. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That is to say that somehow that experience did not act as a wake-up call for this board of directors.

And they said, what we will do is hire the next white man we can find and take our hands back off the wheel. Jesus Christ. Is this an institution that people, like, it would be helpful to put pressure on or? That's what it's hard to say. Because there's this, and I think I talked about it the last time we were on the podcast, but there's this responsibility carousel between management who will be. in a bargaining session because the other thing is because we can't tell how involved the board is because they tell us that they're not involved at all and then they make decisions and we hear about the decisions that they're making we have asked repeatedly that they be involved in bargaining and that they send someone to represent them or they like participate and have an opinion on the way that the stores are run and they have repeatedly refused those invitations requests

demands etc yeah it seems their involvement has been to recommend that our management hire Jenny Golds to be their lawyer, and that is about as much as they want to do. Jesus Christ. Like, two things, too, Finn, I think there was supposed to be a board member president at the next bargaining meeting, but because our meeting was contingent on having the full financial information that we requested literally a month ago. And when we requested that information, the next day a board member, the president of the board said, okay, we'll get this to you.

We got it. I think you might know more about the timing of this, Finn. like at the last possible minute. You got it the day before the meeting. Oh, God. Yeah. And it was half of what we asked for. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And then what we said, this is not what we requested and we cannot meet because we said we couldn't meet without this full information. They were like, we're disappointed that you can't do that.

And we were like, yeah, shocking. Yeah. A combat surgeon with secrets, a world built on power and privilege, and the most unexpected creative duo of the year. As an actor for so many years, I would always walk into other people stories. And I thought, well, why don't I give it a shot, you know,

and try it right up myself? This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club goes live from Apple Soho in New York City with Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben, the powerhouse team behind Gone Before Goodbye. Now a New York Times bestseller. I think we both knew right away that this was going to happen. It's a conversation about,

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Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast, so you'll find out soon. This person writes, My neighbor's been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals, and now my ceiling is collapsing. I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they may be part of a cult. Hold up, Sophia, a real-life cult?

And what is a dirt ritual? No clue. But according to this person, contractors are tearing down the patio to find out going on with her ceiling and her neighbors are not happy. Well, she needs to report them ASAP. She did. And now they've been confronting her in really creepy ways all the time.

So do we find out if this person survives their neighborhood cult or not? To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up everybody? This is snacks from the Trap Nerds podcast and we're bringing you the horror every week all October alone. Kicking off this month, I'll be bringing you all my greatest fear-inducing horror games from Resident Evil to Silent Hill, me and Tony bringing back by our team on Left for Dead too, and we're just going to be going over some of the greats. Also in October, we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movie,

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But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to here we go again with Cal Penn on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We are back. Let's get more formally into what the marketing process has looked like. It sounds like it's been extremely chaotic. They've been not turning over information. It's deeply unclear who's making decisions, which all seem. and I can say this

is my professional opinion not good technical analysis this is why they pay me the mediocre bucks wow I think you were so well informed yes journalistic insight

yeah the way that we set it up on our end when we entered into negotiations was we had a core team of three people who were going to be our core bargaining unit who would attend every meeting And then we had a small team of like three more people, including myself, that were like alternates in case something got scheduled on day that one of the core team couldn't be there.

And we made sure that we would always schedule one person who was not negotiating to be at the meeting and take notes so that like none of the people who were negotiating had to do that at the same time. And when we first started negotiating, the management team was sending Dan Meyer, the interim director and Nain Kano, who's our deputy. director who is basically the like one person on the management team who is not she's not supposed to be a direct supervisor she has not actually let go of the people that she was supervising but she's like in that middle space between like supervising management and like director management um but she has since stepped down from negotiations because of the way that she's been involved in the rest of store operations she was like i can't come to the table anymore and so the latest meeting that has been rescheduled is going to be with Kevin Bendel, who's the new executive director,

and then one other name that I forget, who is either a board member as thinks, or I'm not sure well, she would be. But it is, it is a board member, I think it is Tierra Goldstein, is her name. Tira Goldstone, yeah. Yeah, every so often in negotiating sessions, Dan or Naid would make some reference to, like, a financial decision that we were trying to bargain about being like not their choice and being something that would be up to the board. And we'd be like, so take it to the board. And they would be like, okay. And then we would never hear anything about it ever again.

Incredible. Incredible work. Seems like a great tactic to never address anything you're supposed to be addressing. And so the way that we were negotiating, we were trying to come to terms on things that didn't affect the finances of the store first so that we could land some easy wins and feel like we were making progress and then address the stuff that we expected to be thornier later. But then what that ended up being as meetings went on and on was them asking us constantly, like, but what is it that you guys really are like prioritizing? Like, what is the thing that matters the most to you that like you have the least give on? And we're like it's wages. You know it's wages. It's been wages this whole time. And they're like,

what if we were like asking you to give up all your benefits to get wages that you want? And we were like, okay, that's not how negotiating works. And then in an email that labeled it, their best and final offer, which is language that they have yet to take back, they sent us a version of the contract bargaining agreement that we, A, let me just back up for a second. When we first started negotiating, they asked us to draft the entire first draft of the collective bargaining agreement ourselves, which is incredibly non-standard. And we were like, that's fine because that gives us a leg up in terms of like studying the initial terms.

I guess we'll do it. But like, yeah, incredibly non-standard, super stupid, not a thing that we should have had to do. Yeah. I've never heard of that before. But so when we drafted it, we drafted a three-year term collective bargaining agreement with a bunch of stuff about procedure and wages and benefits that we wanted done. And so, zooming back forward to that best and final offer, suddenly the draft that they've sent us back of the collective bargaining agreement is a two-year term.

And up to this point, all of the offers that had gotten anything close to our ask on wages were in year three. And everything in year one and two was still like 25 cents, 50 cents increases. is. And so suddenly, year three, which was always the only year that made any improvements for us, is gone. And you did not improve any other parts of the contract to make up for that unilateral decision. So that's just regressive bargaining. It is. It is. Which, by the way, okay, do you want to explain to our dear listeners what regressive bargaining is and why you're not allowed to do it.

Yeah. Regressive bargaining is a dirty negotiation tactic where one side without making any sort of give and take concessions like they should to balance a big move, just

unilaterally decides to change a term, especially a large term, like wages, contract term, etc. And so it is taking something that has been tentatively agreed upon and, like, in good faith, taken as a part of the contract that would stand and axing it.

Yeah, and you are not allowed to do this. No, no, you're not. This is under the terms, under the terms of the National Labor Relations Act, which, you know, who knows. But by the time this episode goes out, there is a small chance it won't exist anymore. A bunch of provisions of it are under attack right now. But, like, that is... We have two unfair labor practices. practice is filed with the NLRB since the terms of negotiation have been in effect.

And they are not, in fact, progressive bargaining charges, but issues of status quo where they're trying to change the way that they do scheduling, change the way that they do, like abstinence discipline, which are topics that are covered in bargaining and should only be changed in bargaining while bargaining is active. But they're trying to change them and then say that they, have been the policies all along. And so... Oh, God.

Literally gaslighting. Yeah. Like, actual, actual straight-up, you could pick up the psychology textbook point to it. Oh, yeah. Just pick up that whole lamp. And we have their words in writing of every step of the way where you can see the language change and be like,

no, you are the person who said before that it was this other thing. That was you. Yeah. So we... She's filed unfair labor practice about those things, and you can, in fact, not track them anymore because since the government shut down, you can find a little PDF that explains that all ULPs are going to be pending indefinitely, and that is all you can find. Yeah. And it's also fun because Trump illegally fired one of the democratic people on it, so you don't have a quorum on the board of the National Labor Relations Board. So they don't have a quorum anymore, which is a shit show and is making any NLRB, like, attempt to get.

get anything done to the NLR, be really annoying. Yeah. Yeah. I think the direct action has been helpful. We're like just that reality would just, I think just, it would drive me crazy. I mean, it is, it is gaslighting. This is traumatizing. If a boyfriend does it to you, it's a red flag, but when your boss does it to you, you know, it's like, the public's fine with it. It's the cost of business. Yeah. It is just the continuous nonstop onslaught of

regressive marketing tactics that like from the minute we started despite the fact that like I was sitting next to the director when we said we're unionizing it was like a split second before she said yep we recognize it and so our direct action at the work stoppage I remember our first work stop if you sat for half an hour management was very cool with that the second time we did it we did it for an hour we should have done our homework better because we didn't know that you can't like just like leaflet on store property because you Chicago is our landlord I'm kind of like that store property um but i i put on my clerical collar i put on a t-shirt that had like give on to caesar what is caesar's and also like a little footnote about you know run me my money

you know um there's a more obvious instruction from jesus out of luke that's like pay the work or their wages but um i was wearing my clerical call i set up the pa and i and i was loud there was a hide park harold reporter who you know took my comment who uh i remember him walking over to naïne and i think asking her for her comment um i had a a bluetooth speaker that was dan's right um playing never never fight a man with a perm by idols and i will not forget i will not forget the way our the deputy director approached me she was like okay this is fine this is all fine i just want to let you know this is fine but can you please turn the music off um and it took me about 20 minutes to just turn the buttons down slowly but um like that we we were reprimanded yeah we got a

very, very email the next day illustrating what the consequences would be if we tried to do a similar action again in that manner. And so we picketed it outside their store. That was the next direct action that we did. But like, I do think our most impactful direct actions have been the ones that have been noisy, that have been incredibly visible. When we picketed last, it was on the first day of classes. We sell, like, a lot of core course books for the college at the university. And so there were students like that we were like, hey, do you have the bookseller who sold you that book to have a living wage? And students, like, the 19-year-olds are so outraged by the amount of money I make as a grown person. I heard so much eat the rich that day from Zillenials.

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. But it's, it is clear that when the public is made aware of what's happening at a store that a lot of people love just so much. Like, it is a part of the community. And I think so much a part of people's, and even like my own before I worked there, our experience of being in this, like, tight-knit, bizarre community. And folks are upset. Like they, and I think rightfully so. And that's just, I think really the beauty of direct action is not just that it empowers us, but it really just like in a sort of spectacle way says, this is what, this is what they're doing. You want a place that you love to run this way. and to treat people like this.

And I think they're really effective for that reason, especially because people are really like on our side when they talk to us, but they're also really surprised because like part of the instant recognition thing, part of the being cool with us having union buttons on the register, part of all of that is the fact that management is benefiting from the illusion that they're on good terms with us. And so like one of the reasons that we held that picket was to be, like, hey, just because

they are not stopping us does not mean they have done anything to improve the material conditions that we have been organizing around this whole time. Yeah. Well, and also, to be incredibly clear about this, like, it's so obvious it has to actually directly

be stated, which is that all of the things they are doing are union busing tactics because their strategy here is to do a recognition and then go for the second place where unions most commonly collapse. which is once you're recognized as a bargaining idiot, the second place they fail is getting the first contract

and that that's what they're really obviously trying to do. And yeah, the fact that people don't understand that they're just running a thing that like, I'm trying to think of how to even describe. It was like, like that bookstore was like, it was treated as like something that was, as an institution that was like part of the university. That's like the way it was like treated culturally.

It was this is like our thing. And these people are, running it into the ground because they don't want to pay their workers, like, enough money to survive, which is just hideous. And that's really all it comes down to when you look at what the facts on the ground are, is the decisions that they are making are directly tied to the fact that they feel like they have no money, which is directly to the fact that they are paying the executive director too much, which is directly died to the fact that they want to have an excuse to not pay us anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, wow, we don't have enough

money because we're spending like $160,000 on an executive director, have you considered, you can simply eliminate this entire expense by turning this into an actual co-op. You could do it in like one day and you suddenly would not have the administration expenses because those people wouldn't be there. You could do this really easily. Well, and as the like movement in and out of that position over the past year demonstrates, it has no effect on the operating. The thing that has any effect on the operations of the bookstore is the fact that seven people have left not been replaced and all of their work has been redistributed across like increasingly siloed positions to the people who are left so that you have no help on your particular assigned task that is now yours and yours alone and you just feel terrible in your little hole by yourself. Which this is something like I know for a fact that like multiple people on that board. know what a speed up is.

Like, that's, that's a speed up. I know for a fact that you know what this is. And most of them who know what it is have written against them. Yeah. Just kind of like expanding a bit larger, the staff at the Museum of Science and Industry has also unionized. And they were outside of their store, you know, threatening to strike. And so, like, I loved on the picket line.

Like, I had a sign that said fired Jenny. and I went to explain to the U. Yeah, I went to explain to the U.E employee who Jenny was, the U.E employee who worked with the graduate students United at U.S. Chicago, and she went, oh, I know who Jenny is. And that's, I don't know, just... Yeah.

It's sick that, like, somebody can make their living, making my life worse. But A, that's capitalism. And also, B, like, she has been involved, that lawyer and, like, a number of, like, she's busting, trying to bust unions at U.S. Chicago. unsuccessfully, and also representing Northwestern in a case where one of their employees

accused them of sexual harassment and discrimination, you know, so it's like, you're, you're really, this is, this is the person that you're working with. This is the tool that you're using, you know? Is it who you would rather pay? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's also, it's like, that, that's a thing where this, this whole metaphor of like the boss acting as an abusive partner is suddenly getting very literal in terms of who the people that they are employing do for their other shit

which is defending those people yeah it's almost like there's a structural connection between management and patriarchy wow who could possibly have done this between systems of abuse yeah who could possibly have written about this checks notes looks at

the books that were written by the members of the board I'm just so mad about this. Like, Will Nicky after Empire is really good. It is. Yeah. And I, like, I don't know how much I can, like, hold those individual board members responsible. And it seems like so many of them are, like, just now finding out about it.

Yeah. That's an abuse 101 is to make sure that the person that you are exploiting, that you are, you know, taking advantage of, that they don't feel like they can say to people who could help them, this is what's happening to me. And that, like, the people who would be sympathetic could, you know, go and take the initiative to help folks. And I'm grateful that we have a meeting with Robert Peters coming up soon. It was supposed to happen that has not yet. And I appreciate how dedicated he is and his staff is to making sure that our union sits down and talks with him. But it is also like... There's a deep irony for him accepting an award from another union and rescheduling a meeting with ours to do it.

No, no, no, no, no. It's because we have Jacob. I always say it incorrectly. Ask me. Ask me. Yeah. Yeah, the big end. But that's also like part of the other great community support. Like I mentioned that you, we employee, but, you know,

there are other union employees who just because they love the bookstore so much will show up to every outreach event that we have. He was one of the first people to have a yard sign. And it's funny, he was right next to this guy from my church who also has a window sign. And that's how I found out they were neighbors. Yeah, it's really cute. But like, I'm proud that we're really. Boblies because there is a really long tradition of being in Chicago, a lot of radical organizing

that I think fits our spirit and also like the seminary co-op spirit. It has been hard that we don't have a lot of resources towards bargaining. But like we're good at direct action and we also have I'll give the Ask Me award. I'll give it a pass because Jacob's been so and other community members have been so helpful in just giving their time and their skills and their expertise. So yeah. Yeah. The The MSI union, the grad students union in particular, have been incredible allies to us and have been, they were huge, like, presences on our picket. Because, like, because we did an open store running picket, we had only about half of our actual union members available because everyone else had to be on desks in the stores, keeping them running. And so the majority of the people who were, like, collecting signatures to get Jenny Goltz fired and otherwise improve our bargaining conditions were people from other unions who were just out there being in. wonderful, awesome solidarity with us. Yeah. So my first picket line, I mean, I think I made since

this last episode, but my first picket line ever was the grad student picket line in 2019. That was the first time I was ever on a picket. And it rock. Hell yeah. And yeah. It makes it really happy to see that the whole base of sort of union organizing from that

has like, you know, it's this thing that like I remember when this was like, you know, like I was there in like one of the big pushes and everyone they finally won. And it's like, They're still around helping people because workers, workers fucking fight together. Well, and then they'll always be like, hey, one thing that we know about Jenny Gulles is she likes to lose. And we're like, thank you. Finn, it's not that she likes to use.

The quote is she's very good at losing, which that's true. Even better. Even better. And like what you were saying about GSU, I don't remember what, I think like 2008, 2007 was like when they said we'd, starting organizing for unionizing the graduate students. I had a roommate who was like a 12-year PhD student who was around when that shit started. Yep, yep, yep. You can just count hanging out with your wife in Australia as field research, I guess.

Love this. Love this. Well, she's just doing postdocs. You're just hanging out. But they had a baby yesterday. Anyway. Oh, good for them. Yeah, like I was around.

He came back to finish his PhD, like about the time. like when the contract was ratified. And I just with, what is it, 16, 17 months of bargaining no contract, in the name of my blessed Lord Jesus Christ, like Jesus Christ, GSU has had, like has such a wealth of knowledge

because they've been through just like heaps of bullshit. And it's years. It's like, okay, I want to, I want to like, the fucking GSU thing, they had a whole thing.

When I was there, like in 2019, the whole, the whole thing was that, and like, Genuinely, this is, like, one of the most admirable things I've ever seen a union do, which was they refused to take their case because the university was refusing to recognize them. And they refused to take their case to the NLRB because they knew that if they did it, there was a pretty good chance that the old Trump NLRB was going to like bust every single graduate school union in the country. So instead of trying to win for themselves, they fucking didn't do it and just like fought on picket lines instead and it fucking rocked.

It was, like, they rocked. They're great. They're great. Yeah. Yeah, shout out. Shout out to GSU. Yeah, shout out to GSU. Well, and they are a great, great, great example to us all in terms of, like, how to persist on a fight through attrition. Because one of the things that, like, you try so hard as a management team to do is just wait until everyone gets tired and leaves. And, like, it seems like, grabbed. students would be the perfect population to just wait out because they rotate out constantly. But, like, just the way that they have managed to maintain energy through generations and generations of organizers and get it over the line at long last is so encouraging. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A combat surgeon with secrets, a world built on power and privilege, and the most unexpected creative duo of the year. As an actor for so many years, I would always walk into other people stories.

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and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Cal Penn on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's a thing I remember from, I think the last place I read into it was like one of of Mike Duncan's things about the French Revolution. Like one of the things he talked about was like the ways in which part of what caused the French Revolution was that like they spent a whole bunch of time teaching all of

these kids, these like incredibly radical enlightenment ideas. and then they were like, wait, we live in, like, the most absolute monarchy that has ever existed. What the fuck? We hate this. Yeah. Yeah. Like, wait, hold on. And it's like, there is obviously always sort of contradictions between, like, the number of people I have seen write books about labor resistance and then, like, go bust unions is pretty large.

But there's a reason why everyone from, like, Pinochet through, like, the Trump administration, And back through, like, the original Nazis, it's like, one of the first places, you know, I mean, like, the Greek riot place had this thing where it was like the first place you go when there's discontent is like, you must stop the workers from allying with the students. You must do this or you're fucked. Yeah. But the workers and the students love each other. They're all kissing and healthy. And we're the same person sometimes, you know? Yeah.

So often. Yep, yep, yep. with all my comrades a kiss on the forehead yeah and I think like that is I think like the positive element

of all of this is like the way that one campaign winning can transform the lives of everyone else around you is so astonishing and I've seen it happen in so many places

where like one shop wins and suddenly everyone else is like it could be us could be us yes it's possible yeah

yeah well and I think that We're trying to capitalize on that and trying to make sure that we can be the next person to, like, capitalize on GSU's win and help MSI do the same. But, like, as much as we have really suffered from the at-the-table bargaining negotiating process and been really sort of beaten down in the past year on that battleground, I think we have learned so much about the allies that surround us. the people who, like, want to do more than just email our board members. And we're like, we don't know what else you can do because we don't know who makes these decisions for you to yell at.

But we have so many people who have, like, signed up for an email list with us. So many people who are, like, ready to go as soon as we figure out what we need them to do. Yeah. And that's been really encouraging and bolstering while management continues to, like, just not acknowledge us when they feel too cornered. Like, they simply never spoke of the picket because it happened outside, and so they couldn't be mad about it. So they didn't have to tell us off about it.

But they also just didn't speak of it. Yeah. This is, Chicago is a motherfucking union town. And that's what, yeah, I'll admit, I'm angry when I go into work. They don't care enough to get the mold and the dust remediated, you know, and the ducks. And I can't really breathe when I go into work. and I also don't have health insurance, right? Oh, my God.

Well, I do have health insurance, but I have to pay for, like, you know, I have to pay for my own premiums for a marketplace thing. And that's not really affordable. And, like, as frustrated as I am, like, coming into work, it is, it's the people, you know. And I think that's for a lot of folks who have stayed at the bookstore, I don't know how much you relate to this then. Like, it has been, like, other booksellers, the folks that we've gotten to know through the community who do make a difference, at least for me and whether or not I stay.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, this is a good fight. The union crew that we have is an incredibly worthwhile team to be on. It is a group of people that I feel very solid standing shoulder to shoulder with. I think that is, like, without question, one of the things that, like, keeps the stores a place that you can work, even if it's not a good place to work right now. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And honestly, I think that would have sustained me a lot longer if my commute were different, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Wait, okay, sorry. Can we roll back to the part where you can't breathe because there's, I feel like, because there's mold? Because I feel like you just dropped that very quickly. It was like, oh, yeah, that's like a normal part of the work. What the fuck? Well, so for a very long time, you've been allowed to request that you only work at the co-op because there is a known mode problem at 57th Street that they,

can't afford to or can't get the landlord to ameliorate but there is also at least in our lung experience some sort of growth issue in the venting at the seminary come-up yeah it's it's very dusty at least and like i when i wear like a like a can ninety-five for a little bit like that helps a little i take like five benadryl usually and then that that kind of that kind of helps And that's more just, I think, like, I mean, not more. That is in part, like, my own health. But if I had the resources to be able to take care of my health and get what I need, maybe I could withstand the mold and the dust and the ducks a little bit easier.

But like that. Well, but also, like, as an employer, it is your responsibility to not have your workplace poison your employees. Like, I'm sorry, like. That part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And that also make them pay for the medical care to treat medical problems that they're having because you poisoned them with mold. Like, what? That's, yeah. What? Jesus Christ, it's so evil. Well, and we had a couple of clauses in our first draft of the collective bargaining agreement that included demands regarding mold remediation at 57th Street.

And I do believe those clauses have been struck in subsequent rounds. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's a thing that you could ask people to do, which is go ask people to complain about the whole. fucking bold like it seems like a thing you could do yeah it's that might be a worth another direct action i also notice like people in the store like they cough when they enter yeah you know and like oh god this is where the like the snake eats its own tail the wheel turns inside the fucking wheel right because like maybe like if i'm giving them good faith benefit of the doubt management would

have if they weren't overloaded with so many tasks that they have to take on you know sort of more supervisory management, if y'all didn't have to do all these tasks, maybe you would have time to, if there were people hired in the bargaining unit, perhaps you could yourself have more time to improve the conditions for the store, not just for your workers, but also for the people who enter the stores, but because you will hire new workers until there's a contract, you are just so overworked and you can't. And it's just like, this turns until the boss decides that it does and it's like this, this is their responsibility to bargain in good faith and to treat their workers correctly.

Like, this is an active decision that they could make, that they are not making. So, yeah. I got to say, that might be the single wildest thing I've ever heard, like, an hour into an interview is, oh, yeah, they're poisoning us. What? And the mold. The mold. Just the mold.

But also, this is, like, prove that this is the craziest place to work, because, like, that doesn't even land on our radar anymore because we've been. just like banging our head against walls for a year. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I keep going back to the abusive relationship metaphor, but like that is one of the big things one of abusive relationships is that because of the information control and because of the way that your world gets condensed down

into a really, really tiny, narrow set of experiences where you're isolated and you're only interacting with like one person who was controlling everything about your life, it becomes really difficult to see things that are very, very obviously wrong the moment you step out of it and, you know, I don't know, maybe it turns out having absolute hierarchical relationships of control is an extremely bad way

to run literally anything especially the thing that your livelihood depends on that you do most of your time. Just a thought. Wow. Well, and it also just like means that you are too busy to actually interface in any meaningful way with your workers.

Like, if I tell you that it took me two-thirds of the day to schedule a 15-minute conversation with any of four managers who were on site to quit, I would not be lying. Jesus Christ, they can't even take your rest of bitch. They at one point tried to reschedule that conversation, which I was attempting to have on Friday to Monday. And I was like, I think you want to know this. Yeah, it's like, managers, you two are getting, you two are getting screwed over by understaffing. Oh, my God. I do think that's starting to take a toll to on management, which is a little encouraging. They're losing it.

Yeah. They are not feeling well. And because, like, for me, I don't know, I'm not going to trust a boss. Like, I just stayed it for three months in the 1997 UAW strike. Like, that's, oh, yeah. Cosses are canceled. Yeah, you know, I know how that ended, but I remember one of the supervisors who, who at one point in her, like, her previous career had been on a picket line for a very long time, had been on strike.

And she, like, immediately took one of our little sabocat read pens, put it on her backpack and is otherwise, like, as far as I can tell, generally supportive of the union, but also, man, lady, I wish she would make a stink. Because here's the thing, I think she only talks to us. I feel like the other managers do not speak to her. Yeah. Am I crazy? I could just talk about that for a very long time, and I don't think we have the time. Yeah. Before we get into, what can people do to help?

Is there anything else that you want to make sure that you get to? I think the big thing that we should emphasize to is as much as we are complaining and frustrated about the process, we know that, this is not impasse and that we are so sure that like there is still negotiating to be done there is still conversation to be had and that like we have been emphasizing that at ever opportunity to management as we have to but like just because we are tired and frustrated means nothing in terms of us giving up because this is a fight that is going to continue yeah yeah and like to that point then we're doing this because we love the stores like i the stores were a really important place for me

just putting down roots in the neighborhood and I think when you love something a lot, like you got to be brave enough to wrestle with it and that our unionizing is the right thing. It is the thing that will like hopefully create an environment where the people who make that bookstore

run, who sell the books, in the long run it will make the institution healthier. I really do believe and just that we've been talking about like this metaphor or as the boss of like, as an abusive partner, I think for so many folks when they are, whether it's something like domestic violence or it's in a union campaign

or you're speaking out against, you know, your neighbors being abducted and shot and killed in the street, there is such an expectation that I have to sit by and be quiet while this happens. And part of that, I think what does prevent, and at least in my experience, as someone who survived, you know, particular kinds of violence that, yeah,

I wasn't sure I was doing the right thing, but us unionizing is absolutely the right thing. It is the right thing for the stores. It is the right thing for the community and for the workers. And I just, as much as I'm frustrated, like, I know myself and my fellow booksellers are doing this out of love. Like, it is absolutely love for the stores and the community we serve. So, yeah. We're never going to feel bad for continuing to fight for what is the right thing to do.

Yeah. I'm too broke to feel bad. Yeah. Don't be poisoned by bold every time you go to the bookstore, support the union. Yeah. Wear your mask at seminary co-op. Take a stab a cap pin. Yeah. Ask to talk to a manager.

Make it a long talk. Yeah, honestly. See if you can get one on the floor. We'll help you. Yeah. So how can people help support y'all? And do you have places where people can find more information about the campaign and follow updates? We have a change.org petition that, um, that,

I think if you can link it somewhere in the description. Yep. Yeah, we will link it in description. Yeah. So that does ask folks to sign off in support of the termination of Jenny Goltz, their union busting lawyer, as well as releasing the full slate of financial information, too. So there's a change. org petition.

You can also follow us on Instagram at some booksellers union. We've got the little icon with the Sabo Cat. Sign the petition. There are also some action items on. some of the posts such as emailing the board and management about the release of financial information and also the termination of Jenny Goltz's employment. You can also email those emails on that post about the mold too if you want me to breathe at work. Yeah, I'm so mad about this. I am going to lead the description with their poisoning you because I'm so angry about

this. Thank you. I'm too tired to be angry about it. I'm so glad this. I'm so glad this. and one where the French perspective has remembered that the mold is totally bogus because I had forgotten. It's crazy. Yeah. It's so bogus. It's also like, it's in such plain sight. Like, if you're in 57th Street books and you look to the right of the air conditioning unit

and room one, you would see that shit growing on the wall. Jesus Christ. And it's like, but I also feel like if I talk to management, which I tried about this, it just is not a priority. My breathing. Not a priority. Yeah, it is wild. Thank you for reminding me that.

Someone, one day when you win, someone's going to write a paper about necropolitics in this or something. Like, good Lord. Jeez. Yeah. Some shit. But yeah, sign the petition. Follow us on Instagram.

Help us make a ruckus. And come talk to us and our managers at the bookstore. Because we love to talk to people while we sell them books. Yeah. Yeah. We'll take any goodwill we can get, so. Very much so. Hell yeah.

Well, thank you both so much for coming on and just for doing this in, I don't know, like a place that was really special to me when I was, yeah, when I was there for a long time. Thanks for your help. Thank you for following up with us. Of course. It's really nice to have this platform every so often. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. Hell yeah. Well, hopefully we will have you back on when you fucking win. and yeah yes celebratory round I'm buying I'm personally buying

the cool zone media team around at jimmies when we win our contract I'll come through y'all I will come back down to park just for the celebration change everyone's oil while you're down to

yeah yeah yeah no don't take that long I won't be ready for a second yeah Yeah, this is a bit it could happen here, and you two can resist both your abuser and your boss, even wouldn't know the same person. And you should. Hey, man. Get them.

It Could Happen here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, CoolzoneMedia. Or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. In the heat of battle, your squad relies on you. Don't let them down. Unlock Elite Gaming Tech at Lenovo.com.

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This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club goes live from Apple Soho in New York City for the ultimate storytelling mashup. Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben on their new thriller, Gone Before, goodbye. Can you think you're going to read for 10 minutes? And next thing you know, it's four in the morning. Get the story behind the season's most addictive read, already in New York Times bestseller. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I live below a cult leader and I fear I've angered her. Wait a minute, Sophia. How do you know she's a cult leader? Well, Dakota, luckily it's I'm not afraid of a scary story week on the OK Storytime podcast. So we'll find out soon. This person writes, My neighbor has been blasting music every day and doing dirt rituals. And now my ceiling is collapsing.

I try to report them, but things keep getting weirder. I think they might be part of a cult. Hold up. A real life cult? And what is a dirt ritual? No clue, Dakota. Find out how it ends. Listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Cal Penn.

And on my new podcast, here we go again. we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? Each week, I'm calling up my friends, like Bill Nye, Lily Singh, and Pete Buttigieg to talk about everything from the space race to movie remakes to psychedelics. Put another way, are you high?

Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to here we go again with Cal Penn on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.