It Could Happen Here - The FDA Wants to Take Away Your Covid Vaccine, ft. Dr. Kaveh Hoda

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Garrison talks with Kaveh about the FDA's new covid vaccine recommendation and how vaccine access is under threat. Sources: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsb2506929https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fda-panel-says-covid-vaccines-can-stay-fall-access-concerns-rcna208492See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glott. And this is Season 2 of the War on Drugs podcast. Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man.

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CAUZO MEDIA GERRISON DAVIS Welcome to It Could Happen here, a show about things falling apart. This week, the thing falling apart is the US healthcare system, science in general, but specifically the healthcare system. I'm Garrison Davis, and today I'm joined by a very special returning guest, Dr. Kava Hode. Hello! Hey! Yes, the thing falling apart is you, the listener. So it's very important that you listen up. You are going to anyways, but in particular,

you should be paying attention here because this is important stuff. So in mid-May, we got some news in the FDA, CDC, Human Health and Services front, as there's been. There's been a lot of news in the health front, but specifically we're going to be talking about the new guidelines for COVID vaccines that the FDA is trying to push through in the United States. that the FDA is trying to push through in the United States. So the new FDA commissioner, Marty McCarray, and the top vaccine regulator of A-PROSAD have published a quote unquote study, you pushed back on the use of the word study

in the New England Journal of Medicine about the COVID vaccine booster shots and are going to be changing the guidelines in the New England Journal of Medicine about the COVID vaccine booster shots and are going to be changing the guidelines for how these are gonna be administered and who has access to them. Particularly those under the age of 65 might have a harder time getting the COVID booster

that they have like the past few years, requiring certain pre-existing conditions to qualify. And they have a whole bunch of arguments for this. They say they're trying to make this more in line with the vaccine guidelines in other countries. They're proposing further studies on the necessity of COVID vaccines for those under 65. And for someone like me who tries to keep up

with COVID boosters and doesn't like getting infected with COVID, some of this can seem a little bit both confusing and worrying and considering, like, the anti-vaccine takeover of the FDA and, like, the federal health services in general. It's a frightening move, I guess. Yeah, I think you're right to feel concerned. It is something I am a little concerned about for a couple of reasons. One, I mean, I just don't flatly agree with limiting the use of the vaccines to the people they're planning to limit it to. I mean, this is coming from the medical freedom crowd. I feel like people should at least have the bodily autonomy to have the vaccine if they want it. That's a part of it. But I'm actually

even more concerned about the bigger sense of what this represents. You know, on the surface, making some changes is not totally unreasonable to our vaccine policy. And we generally reassess our COVID vaccine policy annually. So that's not too abnormal. But the thing is, we have this whole system set in place to do it in a efficient, smart way that is public. And there's a process to it. If I can give you a little bit of a sense of how it normally runs and what's going to happen now, I think it will explain why I might have my concerns. Yeah, that would be very useful to hear. So normally, there are some clinical trials, there's some studies that happen, some

real world data, some some points that can be looked at. And then the FDA uses this advisory committee. Again, these advisory committees are not career politicians, they're scientists, they're public health officials, they're doctors, people volunteering their time. I don't think they get paid other than maybe food and their expenses, but other than that, they're not paid for just this job. And what that, this group, the first group is called the VRBPAC, and they determine if it's a safe and effective vaccine. If it is determined that way,

then the FDA grants a license and approval. From there, there's another group, the ACIP, and that's an advisory committee on immunization practices. And it's the same sort of thing. It's a group made up of scientists, healthcare professionals, public health professionals, and people will come together. They'll determine who should get it.

And then the CDC director signs off and then it gets out there to the world. Now, basically what we have is two political pointies, both of which have these massive axes to grind on the subject, have some severe chips on their shoulder about what's happened so far to them in this conversation and this dialogue, who are going to bypass this whole scientific system, who aren't going to be looking at these questions like, what is our growing immunity?

Is annual booster still warranted? And they're going to take this outside of that and basically make the decision. And I find that to be very concerning, even past like this, this basic premise of like, you know, does this mean that my friends or myself, I won't be able to get the vaccine that I want to get? So I find it to be very concerning.

And you alluded to that article in the New England Journal of Medicine. It did not alleviate my concerns. What one of the guys here, the guy who's heading up the vaccine regulations has compared the US COVID response to Nazi Germany. He has boosted anti-vax claims from Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And he blocked me on Twitter. Come on.

And truly his most heinous offense. How could you block me? I'm lovable. No, me and this guy Robert Evans were joking yesterday. Never heard of him. About how some of your personal nemeses have been put into positions of government power and how you're upset about that. And I remarked, oh, first time? Because this has unfortunately been the trend of our work the past few years.

These weird online figures who we've developed personal grievances against for being bad people, suddenly now are like in the upper echelons of power in the US government. Hey, I like them. They just don't like me. I don't know if that's true, but regardless, do you have any other notes on Makari and Prasad like specifically? You know what I'll say. So a big thing about this article that they put in there and what they talk about a lot is trying to get more farm companies to do large studies, which, you know, on the surface, totally reasonable.

But the thing about it is not every problem can be solved with what's considered the quote unquote golden standard of studies, the double blind randomized control study. Some studies just can't. They want to see that these companies are doing these studies to say that it's good and safe and beneficial for younger people. But there's a couple of problems with this. Okay, one, I'm not entirely sure that's ethical. Like if we have something that works, if we know this vaccine helps and we do, CDC studies have shown that these boosters help for at least four to six months. Possibly life saving medication.

Exactly. Is it ethical to deny somebody that? Like, would I want to be a part of that study? I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to get potentially the placebo. So that's part of it. But even beyond that, to do these studies, it's lengthy. They're long studies. If you want to do it and you want to do it right, it takes a while. So by the time they do this, by the time they do the study, even if I'm being very generous in how long it takes them, by the time we get the results, we'll be on to a different mutation.

We know that this thing mutates. We know it's going to change into a different virus, and we won't even know if that study that we just spent all the time doing works on it. So we have other options for studying these things. They're not double blind, randomized controlled studies, but we have other studies that work, and there are plenty of epidemiologists out there, vaccinologists, people who know way more about this than me. And to be fair, no more about this than Prasad and Makari.

They're the ones saying this is not a good idea. So I'm like saying, let's listen to them. Let's listen. They know what they're talking about. They're smart people. I've met some of them. They're great. And it doesn't make sense to me on an ethical or practical level to do it that way.

Do you know what doesn't make sense to me, Kaveh? I know. I do. I do. I do. Can I say it? Can I guess? You can guess.

I'm guessing that commercials don't make sense to you, but really, at this point in your career, they should make sense. I should know by now, but still the concept is a little bizarre. Here they are. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes, but there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution.

But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated,

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2 and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5 and 6 on June 4th. Ad free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, resilient favela life and much more.

All real, completely uncensored. This is unique access with straightforward underground reporting. We're taking you deep into the dirt without the usual airs and graces of legacy media. Away Days showcases what the mainstream cannot access. Real underground reporting with real people, no excuses. For the past decade I've been going to places I shouldn't be meeting people I shouldn't know. Now you can come along too. Listen to the your way days podcast reporting from the underbelly on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you

get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glottd. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Sir, we are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug band. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. Got B-Real from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote.

Marine Corvette, MMA fighter Liz Caramouche. What we're doing now isn't working, and we need to change things. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcast. ["Lava for Good Plus Theme"] My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention.

This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell-bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious somebody violated the FBI and he wanted to bring the Catholic love to its knees. The FBI went around to all their neighbors and said to them, do you think these people are good Americans?

It's got heists, tragedy, a trial of the century, and the God-damnedest love story you've ever heard. I picked up the phone and my thought was this is the most important phone call I'll ever make in my life. I couldn't believe it. I mean, Brendan, it was divine intervention. You can now binge all 10 episodes of Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we are back. I guess let's get into more how this will affect the average listener. What these things could mean. Like, both in, I guess, the short term and then like the long term. If you're trying to plan out your, you know, your health journey, what kind of like risks you have, if you're, you know, compromised, what that means for you versus if you're magical, perfectly healthy, you know, 25 year olds, prancing around with no issues.

Frank, as the kids do. Kids love to prance. So in the short term, it's not clear. In a month, that advisory committee I mentioned, the ACIP, is going to meet, or they're supposed to meet, I don't know if it's still going to happen, and they're supposed to determine who should get this. So first things first, they could disagree. It would be the first time I've seen it.

I've never seen the FDA and the ACIP not be in lockstep in this regard. And maybe it's happened, but I can't think of it. And like, I don't know. I don't know what will happen. That'll be a little bit of chaos. And it'll be interesting to see what happens at that point. But if it goes as the FDA now plans,

it will limit who can potentially get these vaccines if you're not over 65. If you don't have what's considered a risk for serious disease like asthma, cancer, kidney disease, certain types of liver, lung disease, diabetes. If you don't have any of these things, then it's not clear to me, will the pharmacist not give it to you? Will the pharmacist check if you tell them you have one of these things? Will insurance cover it? I don't know, and that's really concerning.

I think the price is gonna go up. And that does relate to the bigger concern, the long-term problem in this, which is, I mean, Kennedy has said he's not taking away vaccines. Great, he doesn't actually need to take away vaccines. He just needs to do things like this so that nobody wants to pay for it. Nobody wants to go through the process of studying it. Nobody's going to make them insurance companies are going to pay for it.

People aren't going to end up being able to afford it. They're going to be lesser and fewer of them and they will go away naturally on their own because of this. That's really the long term concern that I have with this. The short-term concern, I mean, I don't know, it's gonna be interesting, you know? Like, there's certain things on this list that the CDC has, like for example,

physical inactivity is on this list. I mean, who could argue with you on that? Like, you know, if you tell the pharmacist you're having physical inactivity, like, will they, I, you know, if you tell the pharmacist you're having physical inactivity, like, will they I don't know, will they check that? How will they check that? So I don't know what will happen in the short term. In the long term, definitely big concerns. It seems like part of their strategy here is just putting as many roadblocks in between

you and vaccines that could save your life as possible to further whatever like conspiracy driven worldview that the people at the top have and just like the inhumane side effects that's going to have across the entire population. Absolutely. I mean to also put this into context, COVID, we're in a better situation than we were years ago. That's certainly true. But at least from the CDC records alone, 47,000 Americans died from COVID related diseases last year. At least two-thirds of that number were directly due to COVID. And amongst that there are about 230 deaths from kids. That is a significant number and at least you can say at least 130 of those kids were directly related

to COVID and not from some other problems. So this is significant stuff that we're still dealing with. And long COVID can affect people, long COVID can affect all groups. It can affect young and old. So it is concerning and it bothers me in particular that the group doing this, as I said in the beginning, is the medical freedom group. And this is sort of the exact opposite of this. I think this demonstrates how much medical freedom has actually just been a dog whistle for like this conspiracy theory driven belief this entire time.

Like people clamoring for medical freedom don't actually believe in it. They're against trans health care. They're against vaccines in general. They want to put autistic kids into behavioral therapy programs to try to make them not autistic. It's not actually about medical freedom. It's about advancing a very specific conservative and conspiratorial worldview that actually controls what other people are allowed to do with their bodies.

This is a massive part of their project. Yeah. And like, I don't know how else you can like interpret moves like this, which are just going to jeopardize people and put them even in more danger. Yeah. And it's going to get worse. We can see the effects already. Just today, Moderna withdrew their application for a COVID flu combo vaccine, a one shot vaccine that

would have both. And the studies on that so far were really good. Actually they showed, they looked really promising and they're just doing this because, you know, okay, now do we have to have these double blind control studies for this? And they know it's going to be a hostile environment and now it's withdrawn. And there's going to be more and more of that. Like way, way before your time or my time, there used to be more pharmaceutical companies

making vaccines. There used to be a lot more than there are now. There's only like a handful now, but there used to be a lot. And then there was like this CBS show about the pertussis vaccine and it was called like Russian roulette. This could give you like, this could end your life.

And there's like one like made for TV like show about it. It wasn't a movie, but it was like a special they did. And it raised such concerns that letters started pouring in to the network. And they then started pouring into Congress. And there was a whole hearing. And after that, we had a significant drop off in regards to the companies that make these vaccines and we have a few now. And I am worried that this could be another sort of inflection point in that,

in that history, in that arc of vaccines. And we're going to get even fewer now. I mean, it's been devastating watching the advancement of the HIV vaccine, which seemed like it was near a completion, get stalled for a number of reasons, including DEI policies getting pushed across these health departments, because the HIV vaccine research uses terms like gay and trans, and it mentions-

Gender. Yeah, you know, all like gay and trans and it mentions... Gender. Yeah, you know, all that kind of stuff, which people focused on in the first few months. I'm super nervous about the COVID nasal vaccine getting basically shelved. And every like new thing we see come out of the FDA just makes those fears heightened. Yeah, it's just pretty rad.

Not to be too depressing, but that is kind of the... That is the mood of the show in some ways. People can still wash hands, mask up. At this point, people can still get the vaccine, but the way that we've been treating the widespread health of this country has already been pretty bad the past few years. And this is like trying to intentionally make it worse. Yeah, it does feel like that sometimes.

Yeah, I am concerned about it all, but you're all right. We still have, as of now, I mean, there's still some options going forward in terms of vaccines and hopefully we'll continue to have them totally and We'll see how this plays out. I am really curious the next month We'll be very telling when we have that a CIP advisory committee again If it's allowed to happen and they allow people like Paul off it people who are real Vaccinologists people who know about vaccines, not just appointed political people, but people who actually study this know it. If they come on and they can provide enough pressure, if

people can support them, then I do think that there is some hope that the pushback will help us alleviate some of this restriction, I hope. Would the people on the ACIP panel be like political appointees? Do they have the same risk of all these other people put in under RFK Jr. where they're very clearly politically there versus like careerists who are actual experts in the field? Well, unless they change it, the ACIP is not set up like that. The ACIP is just, you know, these really great group of independent doctors and scientists, public health experts that are using real-world data. They're looking at how the immunity shifts over time.

They're looking at the virus and seeing if it's changing. They're really volunteers that come from the world of science to do so. So as of now, they're not, that's not how the group works. I don't know if that'll hold. I mean, I don't see any reason why they couldn't, if they wanted to scrap the ACIP, get rid of the people on it, you know, people who are vaccinologists who are great significance to the community like, you know, Peter Hotez or your Paul Offitz,

these scientists who really study and look at these things and put in just people who are already in line. I mean, unless I'm missing something about it, I don't see why they couldn't do that. I hope they don't. I think there's enough scientific background in Prasad and I think there's enough scientific background in Prasad and Makari that they would recognize the importance of an independent council, but yeah, I'm not sure Well, that's good to know We don't need to be fully doomer-pilled on that but it's a good thing to watch out for You know what? I'm gonna be watching out for Kava. I do I certainly do you're be listening more than watching, but you're gonna be listening for some really great ads. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

Sometimes the answer is yes, but there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened

when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser, Inc. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser, Inc. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing,

resilient favela life and much more. All real, completely uncensored. This is unique access with straightforward underground reporting. We're taking you deep into the dirt without the usual airs and graces of legacy media. A way that it showcases what the mainstream cannot access. Real underground reporting with real people, no excuses. For the past decade I've been going to places I shouldn't be meeting people I shouldn't know. Now you can come along too.

Listen to the Your Way Days podcast reporting from the underbelly on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glod. And this is season two of the World on Drugs podcast. We are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man.

We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars stars Marcus King John Osborne for Brothers Osborne We have this misunderstanding of what this quote-unquote drug Benny the butcher Brent Smith from shinedown got be real from Cypress Hill NHL enforcer Riley Cote Marine Corvette MMA fighter Liz caramou. What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things.

Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts are wherever you get your podcasts.

And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcast. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell-bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious somebody violated the FBI and he wanted to bring the Catholic

left to its knees. The FBI went around to all their neighbors and said to them, do you think these people are good Americans? It's got heists, tragedy, a trial of the century, and the God-damnedest love story you've ever heard. I picked up the phone, and my thought was,

this is the most important phone call I'll ever make in my life. I couldn't believe it. I mean, Brendan, it was divine intervention. You can now binge all 10 episodes of Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I guess I'd also like to touch on this actual piece in the New England Journal of Medicine. Yeah.

Their quote unquote evidence-based approach to COVID-19 vaccination, which is more of a blog post, right? It is not a study. It is a blog post. And specifically, they talk about how the United States has a much more severe vaccine strategy than other countries in Europe. And they try to use this to justify their own beliefs, saying that they're trying to bring things in line with the vaccine policies in other countries.

Is this real? Is this true? I don't live in Europe. I'm not super familiar with the European vaccine guidelines. I don't expect you to be an expert either. No, it's really funny though that you mentioned it because it's so funny what they decide to endorse about European policy. Like, will socialize medicine? Most of these European countries have socialized medicine. They will have nothing to do with that and then they'll nitpick certain things. So

there is some truth to the fact that we are doing things differently and again I'm not opposed to looking at that and being like okay what are other countries doing? Does it work? And could we do that? So there is a difference. Currently until now in the, it was generally recommended for anyone over six months. People weren't being made to have this, by the way. Again, medical freedom, you know? No, I was pretty sure that Joe Biden will send a SWAT team to your house and shoot you unless you get the COVID vaccine. That's what I was told on the RFK Jr. podcast.

I mean, he is somehow simultaneously a decrepit old man who's certainly confused, but somehow able to orchestrate incredible from the depths, darkness, deep state espionage. So I guess it's possible. And that's how we do it. It's how Canada does it. The UK, they do do it a little differently. They do it for people greater than 65. They do it for residents in care homes. They do it for people greater than six months and high risk and people who are greater

than 12 years of age, but are in a house where someone's immunocompromised. They do it for anyone who's over 16, who helps care for someone who's vulnerable. And they do it for all social and healthcare workers. I mean, they have a different system in place. They have, as I mentioned, socialized healthcare in general. They're very good about their vaccines.

So it's hard to tell. It's a little bit of apples and oranges, but it's funny what they decided to pick and not pick about that. And it's also funny why some groups are missing under our care. Like a lot of places will vaccinate anyone who's overweight. Here they don't consider being overweight a risk for COVID. So it is funny how they're choosing, they're nitpicking certain things that are recommendations, common recommendations in other countries

and not using them here. So they do it a little differently in Europe, that is true. And again, this is the kind of stuff that they're gonna evaluate every year. The ACIP will evaluate, they'll look at the emerging data, they'll look at the other countries, they'll look at what's being done and they'll discuss it. So it is true and it does seem reasonable on the surface when they say it like that.

Hey, we're just trying to get into dimension this in the New England Journal of Medicine article. We're just trying to get more in line with the rest of the world. And that's not really true. It's like they're just picking certain things that they want to agree with and ignoring all the other stuff about their health care system that we could benefit from. One of the more wild aspects of this, again, glorified blog post is talking about how the COVID vaccine booster program has actually undermined public trust in vaccinations. Which is like, again, this is like, we're all looking for the guy who did this moment, wearing the hot dog costume, quote, even healthcare workers remain hesitant with less than one-third participating in 2023 to 2024 fall booster program. There may even be a ripple effect.

Public trust and vaccination in general has declined, resulting in reluctance to vaccinate that is affecting even vital immunization programs such as that for measles, mumps, and rubella. Oh, so weird. I wonder if it's the people that have been talking about how corrupt and terrible the FDA and CDC are for the last five, six years. It's insane that they're able to do this. Yeah.

I mean, it is an ongoing inside joke amongst people in the medical community, the hot dog meme guy. That's a very common like attribute to these characters who talk about, you know, how they're clearly sowing the seeds of mistrust and then capitalizing off of it. I don't know if they even mean to or not. And people ask me a lot. They're like, you know, why are they, why? Why do they do this? And I, that's a tough one for me. That's your friend, Robert Evans. I ask him that every time I'm on

his podcast guy, there's a point in the podcast where I earnestly, I don't do this on purpose, where I just don't understand. And I need to understand why it's being done. And in these cases, it's hard, you know, previously, Vinay Prasad had a podcast that people really like called the Plenary Podcast in the medical community. I never listened to it because I don't listen to medical podcasts. Why would I? And what it did basically was it would break down like studies and go over them in a very sort of skeptical way.

And I think it's good as a doctor to be skeptical. I think that's a good attribute for us to have. And it was useful in many ways. But then I don't know if it's audience capture. I don't know if it's true belief. I don't know what shifted, but it does seem that it was a steady growth into this contrarian perspective from the medical community. That doesn't totally make sense to me. Like they all kind of feel like they're Galileo or Sammelweis, that they had this rare contrarian opinion that made them special and they were attacked for. But in my mind, it's not so much that as it is, you know, there is a scientific process

that we have. Galileo followed a scientific process and that's how he came to those conclusions. These people, I don't feel are following that. And they are strict to their method, idolatry, to what they feel needs to be done. And I don't feel like they're listening to the experts in the field explain to them why that's not the case. That's how every hero probably feels in every situation, but they have somehow become the victims in this story. And I am very curious to see now that they're in power, how that shifts and if they maintain this sort of victim mentality. Well, how can you be a victim when we have beef tallow back at Steak N Shake, everyone? We did it. Beef tallow.

We did it, Joe. We're back. We sure did. Maga-coated coconut oil. Now I'll be completely healthy again. Yeah. Yeah. That is so funny to me.

I mean, like, we could talk about seed oils. We could talk about the quote unquote hateful eight. We could talk about the quote unquote hateful eight. We could talk about all that stuff, but it's pretty clear that oils are better than tallow for your health. In beef tallow, there's very little, like there's a little proof to prove that it's good for you and a lot of proof to say that animal products

are bad for your heart. So it's absurd that that's an argument that we're still having in 2025. No, instead of frying in beef tallow oil, instead, I just drink a full eight ounces of grape seed oil every morning to wake up. It does wonders for me. It just gets the whole body up and running. Lubricates the whole system. That's right.

I know you can't give medical advice, but do you have any advice to give listeners before we close? At least people who are like, you know, afraid of what these changes from RFK's FDA will mean for like them in their community. Yeah, I think it's okay to be concerned about it, but I do think there is some time to go. There's going to be a lot of people from the medical community fighting to try and fight these restrictions on the vaccine. So we'll see how that goes.

You will probably be able to find ways to do it. You should talk to your doctor about it because your doctor probably can see a risk factor that you don't. If you don't see one that automatically fits that list from the CDC, your doctor might be able to find one that that is. And I'm not talking about fraud. I'm talking about like real things. Your doctor may be able to look through your chart, look through

your history, talk to you and find a risk factor that you didn't think was a risk factor. Like for example, physical inactivity or you know smoking. So there are things that we can look for and as they shift those goalposts, which I'm sure they will, we'll also be trying to find ways around that as well. And, you know, when the ACIP comes out, there's going to be a lot of pressure on them. And I think we can pressure our Congress and we can pressure our representatives to support them,

at least nominally to discuss it if nothing else, because I don't think this is getting talked about that much. So I think if we can bring it to the public attention, I think we can shift the narrative on vaccines. I do believe that the narrative has shifted on COVID and vaccines in this terrible way, this revisionist way where everyone pretends it's not, it wasn't a big deal, and that we didn't lose millions of people. And I think if we can keep that in the public discourse, I think that alone will help. I think that's important for us to do, and that's what people, you know, on Reddit and people on the

internet and Facebook and all that stuff can do, is they can help keep this in the public eye and fight that incipient, they can help keep this in the public eye and fight that incipient, I don't know if that's the right word, insidious is probably the right word. It's this really subtle sort of reconstructing of the narrative of what COVID was and how important these vaccines are. So that's how people can help in the immediate future. And then, you know, stay tuned, talk to your doctor about vaccines and when you can get them and get them as soon as you can. I do think that's a good idea for both flu and for COVID boosters when available. Cave, lovely talking with you as always. Where can people hear you talk more on the internet?

I am on a podcast called The House of Pod, and it is a humor adjacent, fun-ish medical podcast. I would say it's not adjacent to humor. I would say it is on target. We're next door to humor. Next door to humor? We speak a little humor, not a ton, but you will like the show if you like this. I think you're going to recognize

a lot of the same people. Gare, for example, has just recently been on an episode and you know, you'll, we'll get Gare on again, I hope. And you'll, you'll find people that you like there. A lot of the same sorts of people. We take a skeptical look at medical grifters and the wellness community. So a lot of the same stuff you love from these shows

in the extended behind the bastard community. So a lot of the same stuff you love from these shows in the extended behind the bastard universe. You'll also get into I think our podcast, the House of Pod and find it anywhere. The House of Pod. The House of Pod. The first time I met you online, I was invited onto the show and you know, it was a pretty busy year 2020. There's a lot going on for me with the riots and such and whatever damage was done to my brain via all that tear gas. And for some reason, and I don't quite

know why, I wonder if I was just conflating two messages, but I thought I agreed to go onto a medieval history podcast, not a medical podcast. So as things started, I was a little bit confused. And then I went back to reread the message and like, oh no, it definitely says medical. And I still don't quite know how I did that. Like I said, a lot going on that year. You did great. Whatever it was, whatever you thought you were doing, you did it well. But whenever I think of your podcast, I now also think about medieval history. So there you go. Yeah. Hey, okay. That's cool. I'll take it. I think we did do an episode. I mean, not every episode is strictly like medical stuff.

Like I did an episode with these guys who wrote this book on Sparta and the battle with the Persians and how the story has been sort of turned into something grossly that's not, partially because of 300 and partially because of other reasons. And so there's a little bit of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, yeah. You would like that episode. How often do you think about the Roman Empire? I don't. I think about how the Persians killed a lot of them over the Thermophilia. That brings me a little spark of joy.

Okay, good to know just kidding listeners I don't I don't I don't prove of people being murdered. I don't I don't even if they're jerks Good to say in this day and age. Yeah. Thank you so much. God. Thank you. Thank you for having me It could happen here is a production of cool zone media for more podcasts from cool zone media I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad.

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