It Could Happen Here - The Junta’s Sham Elections and a Myanmar Update

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

James talks to Billy Ford (@billee4d) about the Junta’s “roadmap to democracy” in Myanmar and the state of the spring revolution two years after it began.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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or heard from Billy when we finished our last series on Myanmar where we spoke about the funding that the PDFs are using and how they're using a lot of unique and really innovative methods to continue to support their revolution when they're not getting very much at all in the way of international support and certainly nothing compared to countries like Ukraine. But what we wanted to talk a little bit about today was the SAC or the Junta's attempts

at kind of staging a sham election, which they've sort of backed off on. Can you explain a little bit about what they had proposed and then maybe what they're doing now? Right. Yeah. explain a little bit about what they had proposed and then what they're maybe what they're doing now right yeah um so the expectation was upon um instigating the coup february 1st 2021 that um the state of emergency would end on um february 1st, which was two days ago, giving them six months after that period to kind of undertake an election. And so the expectation was that before August 1st, 2023, there would be this sort of sham electoral process, and the Junta would essentially structure the process in such a way that their political party, the USDP, would prevail. And that the commander-in-chief, Min Aung Hlaing, who runs the SAC junta, would ascend as he had dreamed to become the president of the country and kind of rule in a military dictatorship model, but under kind of these auspices of civilian governance. So that was the expectation, but things have changed as you

kind of alluded to. Yeah. So they've said they're going to extend for another six months. Is that right? That's right. So they said they would extend for another six months until August 1st. But then this morning, they also announced a new political, economic, and social objectives, which includes a five-point roadmap, which for those of you who have been following Myanmar for some time is often the way that they frame their kind of sham and circuitous approaches to civilian governance. But that articulates a series of reforms, restoring law and order, you know, social development, implementing a peace process, and then holding elections. And this is, I think, indicates to most people that elections are very unlikely to occur any time in the near future.

They did something almost identical in 2004, articulating a roadmap to democracy. And that didn't really start until 2010 when there were elections. And there weren't really meaningful ones until 2015. But this is kind of an indication to, I think, a lot of folks that elections are unlikely this year and that there's kind of a long road ahead. in the international community, including Thailand, China, and India in particular, how they will respond in part because they were pushing the SAC very hard to undertake these elections as a potential off-ramp to the horrifying violence that resulted from the coup and, you know, all the atrocities that the SAC has committed. Maybe we could talk a little bit about the international support they have,

because it's still quite significant. And like, especially in terms of propping up their military force through the use of air power, they don't have domestic fighter jet manufacturing, right? So can you talk a little bit about that? Like, I think they received a couple more planes very recently, right? Yeah, from the Chinese. Yeah, it's kind of an interesting dynamic whereby you have an entire country of 53-ish million people

fighting against a tiny military institution of about 500,000 or fewer, if you include their families and all the medics. of about 500,000 or fewer, if you include their families and all the medics. And that tiny institution is being supported by just a handful of countries, as I said, kind of China, Russia, to a certain degree, India and Thailand, and a few others. And the vast majority of the world kind of opposes this military takeover and the subsequent dictatorship and all the horrendous atrocities that they've committed. And so there's quite a lot of international actors who are providing kind of rhetorical support to the resistance and some support to civil society and humanitarian assistance and others.

But on balance, the support that the Chinese, Indians, Russians in particular have provided in terms of material assistance to the SAC, as well as the diplomatic assistance that the Chinese provide at the Security Council in particular, but also the ties provide within ASEAN is, you know, far outweighs the rhetorical and small material assistance that the West and, um, you know, other supporters of the resistance movement have provided. Um, so yes, to answer your question, the, you know, the Chinese and Indians continue to provide material military assistance to the SAC. Um, and, you know, my question is kind of what is their theory of change here and how will supporting the SAC militarily lead to anything like stabilization is just kind of perplexing

to me when both countries are very interested in supporting a level of functional stability so they can undertake their economic and geopolitical objectives, many of which go through Myanmar. I just don't really understand how they see kind of a military victory by the SAC as a pathway to stabilization when you have an entire nation that has risen up against this dictatorship and has wholly rejected it and demonstrated that they're willing to make

these incredible sacrifices to ensure that this coup does not succeed. Yeah, it's very perplexing because it's not in any sort of conventional sense like a consolidated regime and nor does it show any chance of being one, right? Like it doesn't even have territorial control over large swathes of the country that it claims.

Yeah, exactly. And you're even hearing this. I mean, there's been quite a bit of research, contested research that shows the junta has less than 50% control. But even today, or day before yesterday, you heard from Min Online, the junta leader, that he's now admitting that they only have 60% control, which is a pretty sanguine analysis of what they control.

It's probably much smaller than that. But them demonstrating that they do not have control over 40% of the country is a pretty staggering proposition and kind of indication to their allies that, you know, they just don't have the capacity to administer a country that's unwilling to be pacified. And so, and, you know, on top of that, there's very little – I just don't see a pathway in which they will capture more territory. I mean they have constrained resources. They have – I think they had 22 entrants into the Defense Service Academy last year. I mean there's – when there's casualties on the front lines, you just – there's not a lot of replacement happening.

They're not able to get spare parts for their Russian-made helicopters. There's just major material constraints that the SAC's military is facing, and it's just hard to imagine that they will ever regain much more than what they say is 60% territorial control. Yeah, it's very – and then if we look at the pdfs by comparison and i got banned from twitter last week for uh posting a picture of them but uh i their their equipment compared to even a year ago is vastly improved like uh i don't know if you saw the one group of guys with their actual international rifle but I have no idea where that came from,

but it's very impressive that they have one. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of, honestly, the resilience of this movement is partly a testament to the ingenuity and innovation. I mean, we saw it in the beginning, in the nonviolent action demonstrating or kind of deploying tactics that we've never seen before that have been lessons to other international nonviolent movements demonstrating or kind of deploying tactics that we've never seen before that have, you know, been lessons to other international nonviolent movements around the world. Just really creative fundraising tactics, as you and I have discussed in the past.

But yeah, now it's the military ingenuity. I mean, essentially creating facilities for retrofitting drones for aerial attacks. One of the military's helicopters was taken down this morning. I don't know exactly what weapons were used in that, but it's just kind of a level of innovation, given that the PDFs and most of the arrows have very little access to very few international arms markets.

So the fact that they're able to sustain themselves at all and maintain this 40%, which is probably much more, of the territory is kind of an incredible testament to their innovation and ingenuity. Yeah, there's a couple, obviously, of several PDF fighters who I keep in touch with. And they've spoken to me about, first, their 3D-printed guns, which we've spoken about extensively,

but also tourniquets, night vision goggles, even prostheses, like limbs, people who have lost legs to landmines and things. So it's amazing that they've set up all these things which normally require massive interaction with the state and with an international system, and they've done it using, in this case, the internet and a $300 printer they got

on AliExpress or something. Yeah, yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, it's extremely sort of inspirational in that sense, but also very sad. I want to talk a little bit about the the sac seems to have it's not fair to say they've pivoted to war crimes because it's been kind of integral to what they've done from the outset but they seem to have given up on trying to make like targeted strikes against like military formations and it just pivoted to

dropping bombs on civilians could you talk about a couple of those like maybe we could talk about the the kachin um music cultural festival that they bombed or one of the other examples of that yeah there's definitely been a shift from um a strategy of essentially augmenting um or providing air support to kind of exposed frontline light infantry to a tactic of targeted airstrikes against civilian targets and against armed organization headquarters, which had under previous negotiations been deemed off-limits, but it seems as if there is nothing off-limits now. They bombed the Chin National Front's headquarters,

which is right on the India-Chin border on the western part of Myanmar. And there's pretty reliable accounts that there were bombs that landed in Indian territory. I mean, as you referenced, there was a bombing in Kachin State on a festival killing at least 60 civilians. They've done something similar on ethnic armed organization headquarters in the Southeast and Karen territories, including the Arakan armies facilities in those areas. So there has been a shift in tactics to targeting headquarters facilities in that sense. And as you said, kind of civilian targets to, I don't know, you know, this is just the modus operandi of

an institution that is devoid of humanity and so alienated from society that they, you know, they're willing to go to any ends to kind of protect themselves and their control of power. I think particularly now that they've seen that the public is against them and probably quite concerned that if they are unsuccessful in this military endeavor, that they'll be kind of strung up, you know? So it's, I think it's kind of a sign of desperation and as you mentioned, kind of a tactical shift. kind of a tactical shift. Welcome.

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You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned silicon valley into a playground for billionaires from the chaotic world of generative ai to the destruction of google search better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose this season i'm going to be joined by everyone from nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field and i'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible.

Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Maybe we should explain the sort of four-cut strategy, which has been a long-term strategy even before the coup of the military and what that means and how that sort of provides,

I guess, I don't know, like a moral framework. Maybe that's the wrong way. But, you know, it's not like they started doing this shit in February 1st, 2021, right? Like, this is how they do stuff. Yeah. I mean, this is an institution that's been at war with its own people for 70 years.

Yeah. I mean, there is an underlying philosophy of the Myanmar military, the sit-tap, that they essentially are the protectors of national sovereignty and to a certain degree are protectors of the Burma ethnic group and Burma Buddhism in particular. certain degree are protectors of the bumar ethnic group and bumar buddhism in particular and um this is a deeply entrenched philosophy within the um military establishment and um it's been to a certain degree a fairly compelling narrative for retention and institutional solidarity which is why in some part i mean it's it's one of the reasons, there are a number, why the SAC and the SITDAT, Memorial Military, has been resilient to collapse despite being extremely incompetent and very isolated and virtually never having won a war

despite being at war for 70 years and having structural and military advantages. And so this is kind of underlying the justification and the moral philosophy of this institution that is morally corrupted. is essentially one of social isolation, division, and ensuring as much human suffering as possible so as to pacify a population into submission. And so essentially the strategy is to kind of cut communications and food supply and connections between communities and these sorts of things, which is for a very long time, the military strategy has been one of divide and conquer in which they've attempted to exacerbate divisions between ethnic and religious minority communities to ensure that they would not face a united front.

And so the incredible challenge and opportunity of the current resistance movement is one in which the Myanmar military is no longer at the table in conversations with one another. And they are trying to build cohesion with one another. And frankly, this is where there is unbelievable progress that I don't think gets enough attention and appreciation. There's meaningful changes in behavior in terms of the Bumar majority ethnic communities, posture towards ethnic and religious minorities, and communication and coordination

across institutions that had historically been at odds and happy to go more into that. But yeah, the strategy of divide and conquer is really front and center. Yeah, and ironically, by pushing that so hard that they've done the complete opposite, which is force people to form a popular front against them. Let's talk about that,

because I find it really fascinating how even how EAOs and PDFs are kind of vaguely underneath a unified command at this point and so yeah let's talk about how those barriers which existed for so long are sort of gradually breaking down now yeah rapidly i guess one of the ways in which there's been a meaningful shift has been just kind of the individual experiences of the military's atrocities. I mean, I think in your previous episode with Ko Ang Chol Mo, he had indicated that public perception of Rohingya has shifted somewhat, although it's kind of questionable whether it's a durable shift and whether it's meaningful and all that.

But he had attributed that shift in part to the fact that the Burma majority Buddhist population is now experiencing, frankly, some of the forms of atrocity that the Rohingya had experienced in the 70s and the 90s and then in 2016-17 when things escalated to genocide. So I think this is one of the shifts is that in the Burmese heartland, in the area where the military recruits most of its soldiers, they are undertaking the most, arguably the most extreme atrocities, burning villages to the ground, just horrendous stuff that I don't even want to say on the air, but just, you know, just an incredible campaign of terror, in part because the people's defense forces and the resistance forces are extremely strong there and only strengthening in response to these atrocities. So I think that's one of the dynamics is that there's been a shift in perception because of the Hunter's behavior. Another is that, frankly, there's just a massive political shift at play. I mean, you have, you know, February 1st, the National League for Democracy-led government is deposed, and they don't necessarily have arms or an experience of

military combat, whereas the ethnic armed organizations have been fighting for 70 years against the central government, including the National League for Democracy-led government. And so there is a shift in power at that moment that shifts power from the BAMAR center to ethnic minority communities in a particular way. So that kind of open space for greater humility and greater dialogue and, you know, willingness to make concessions to ethnic and religious minority communities. And that is, there's actually been tremendous progress there. So there's the National Unity Consultative Council, which is, you know, probably the most important dialogue platform, but one that is very focused on big picture governance challenges and long-term kind of national dialogue processes. But there's been some good progress there, but frankly, the most progress has been

made in military and governance coordination platforms. So this includes the C3C, which is essentially a command and control platform that's between the national unity government and ethnic armed organization leadership, basic things like coordinating humanitarian assistance or local administration or policing, these sorts of things where there's, you know, there's a problem that needs to be solved in the near term and we can come together to solve it collaboratively and in that process sort of build understanding and trust with one another. So there's been really meaningful differences I've seen in terms of cohesion across traditional lines of inter-communal division.

Obviously a long way to go, but this is a lot of what we're working on at the U.S. Institute of Peace and that the U.S. government is supporting is trying to support the resistance capacity to chart a viable pathway to stabilization. And a lot of that relies upon building cohesion and trust among resistance groups. Yeah. Everyone I spoke to, not everyone I spoke to was Burma,

some people were Karen, and some of the people we'd spoken to remotely were Rohingya. All of them said that what has to come out of this is like a federalized democracy. Do you think that that's likely? And what does that look like in a country that's been at war with itself for most of this last century? Yeah, I mean, clearly this is a question that needs to be answered by the Myanmar people. And I think the National Unity Consultative Council is a good platform for having this discussion. But there is a number of prerequisites for having that discussion.

And one of them is kind of new norms of dialogue based on trust and mutual respect. But yeah, I think that the only viable pathway to stability is, you know, is one that results in a federal democratic system in which subnational federal units have a degree of autonomy and in which there is a baseline of equality. There is rule of law, independent judiciary, just the basic fundamentals that ensure protections of minority populations. Another challenge being that even within states like Kachin State, where the Kachin ethnic community is an ethnic minority at the national level, but there are also sub-minorities like the Shawnee population.

And there's concerns that there needs to be protections for the minorities within the minority states. So all of these things need to be sort of worked out. And this is, of course, maybe a decade-long national dialogue process that will ultimately culminate in a new federal governance structure, a new security structure that maybe doesn't have a union-level military with the level of autonomy or political involvement that has plagued this country for so long. But this is really the key to long-term peace and stability in the country.

this is really like the key to long-term peace and stability in the country and frankly like it felt a long way off under the NLD administration I mean they they were making a lot of progress in a lot of ways but you know building a just and inequitable governance structure in which ethnic and religious minorities had a voice and didn't feel oppressed by the dominant Bama Buddhist population. Frankly, it was, it was quite a ways off. And this, you know, as horrible as the coup has been, it is definitely a shock to the system that may open up new pathways for dialogue, new opportunities for trust building, and, you know, the opportunity to, you know, think about a new model of governance that is you know more just more equitable more inclusive yeah it's definitely brought in a whole generation of

younger people who like aren't sort of who didn't come through the institutions that created the old regime and just came at this it's like i'm 17 and i'm fucking angry and like i'm gonna make this better you sort of uh however i can yeah they they're really i mean obviously very inspirational and uh and fascinated to talk to i wonder like how do you see the end to this conflict because we're still a long way from like either side having a definitive military victory right certainly all these big cities are still more or less controlled by the hunter and there's there's not an immediate way that i can foresee them not being that way so if i could ask you to like speculate a little bit or look at the way

things are going how do we get out of the situation where the hunter's bombing schools and music concerts and right um hmm it's yeah this is honestly like i think everyone is kind of lost um in our attempts to make predictions of where this is going um honestly i don't know that there is a path to a military victory for either side here. I mean, it seems pretty unlikely that you'll see PDFs marching on Nipido and capturing the Ministry of Defense anytime soon. But equally

unlikely that the SAC will consolidate control of the country. I mean, that's just not going to happen. So, I mean, a lot of our work is thinking through the best possible outcomes and doing the work to try to increase the probability of those outcomes. And I think this is where I have questions for a lot of the international actors that are supporting the SAC because I just don't know of any possible pathway to peace and stabilization that goes through a stronger SAC. It just seems

unfathomable. But there are pathways to stabilization that go through a stronger resistance movement that either yields some radical transformation of the SAC's composition and then some sort of dialogue process, or, you know, just a very, very extended conflict in which, you know, the resistance holds territory in some parts of the country. The SAC controls some other areas um over an extended period the ethnic armed organizations contain kind of um act more and more autonomously and you have areas in you know kachin and wakokong on the chinese border or kain state that kind of gain a bit more autonomy and sort of act more independently of one another so like this sort of fragmentation process. And honestly, if there is an election,

you know, a sham election by the SAC, it seems to increase the probability of this fragmentation scenario. You know, it increases the probability that the SAC just maintains its presence in the urban areas. And then Rakhine State, Kachin State, Wa State, these kind of become more autonomous regions, Chin State,

and they start to operate as semi-independent states. So honestly, that's part of why I feel like support to the SAC, not only is it SAC for the elections, I should say, not only does it SAC for the elections, I should say, not only does it almost definitely increase violence because the elections are a target, but also it increases the probability of national fragmentation

and it doesn't do anything to increase the probability of stability. So I don't really see that being a pathway to any form of stability or ending the SAC's bombings of schools. Yeah, I think it gives them this weird talking point that the Russian sham elections in the Donbass, like, because we saw like, I think it was a Moby PDF. I don't know if you saw this, but they did a drive by and shot some people who were polling for doing some kind of election stuff and obviously that gives them this kind of

oh look our election workers are being attacked what terrible people the pdfs are kind of but you you know if you've spent more than 10 minutes your entire life reading about myanmar then you'll realize that that's a false claim. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories

inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.

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Hey, you've been doing all that talking. It's time to get rewarded for it. Submit your podcast today at iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. The international community just doesn't seem to care to a large degree about atrocities in Myanmar, about the revolution in Myanmar, about the coup in Myanmar. It certainly doesn't care in the same way that it cares about what's happening in Ukraine, right?

It doesn't care with manpads and tanks and guns and training and all the things that could bring this war to an end much more quickly. Do you think that that will change, or is this going to be Burmese people liberating Burmese people because the world doesn't care about them, or doesn't care in a material fashion? Yeah, I think there's like... Yeah, I think there's sort of like two dynamics at play here. One is that, yeah, people care a lot less than Ukraine or Taiwan

or other geopolitical interests. They see this to a certain level as a domestic issue that doesn't have regional implications, something that we're very focused on demonstrating is totally untrue. And the other thing is that people don't know what to do. And, like, I mean, even the U.S. Congress just passed the Burma Act, which is a piece of legislation that essentially signals congressional interest in Burma and more to be done alongside appropriations of resources to support it. The challenge now is figuring out what is the best use of resources. like Japan and honestly some EU states, ASEAN states,

it's more they are very uncomfortable with engaging with revolutionary actors and there's just not a lot of certainty as to how to help because there's like, okay, military assistance to the NUG. military assistance to the NUG. It's like, there's a lot of concern that, you know, significant expansion of arms access in the country is, you know, you have this mass proliferation of weapons. You have, you know, concerns about post-conflict warlordism or weapons and resources getting into the hands of narco-traffickers. There's just a lot of uncertainty, and so there's not an adequate, given the first point that this is a kind of peripheral regional matter in the eyes of some,

it yields a very low risk tolerance and uncertainty as to what to do. And so this kind of has resulted in a couple of things. One being that the buck is just passed to multilateral institutions like ASEAN. I mean, I think China has done a very effective job of ensuring nothing happens in the international realm by pushing it to ASEAN, which it knows is incapable of doing anything meaningful. by pushing it to ASEAN, which it knows is incapable of doing anything meaningful. And so it's just relegated to multilateral platforms where nothing will happen. You always have a veto from Thailand, Cambodia, or Russia and China at the Security Council. And so, you know, it's these combinations of factors that really challenge this thing.

And even within the U.S. government, there's like a very robust interagency debate about exactly what is the best form of assistance? What is the most ethical way of engaging? And what are risks associated with different forms of assistance to the resistance movement? So I think that uncertainty plays a lot into it. And so, um, a lot of what I think there's a lot of value that could be added if, um, the resistance movement can come together essentially around, uh, a common set of requests from the international community, um, essentially saying, this is what we need, um, to be effective. And, you know, you based on your risk tolerance, help us as you can, but we're demonstrating to you that we have, we're unified in these ways. We have these needs and, you know, help us however you feel is most appropriate given your risk tolerance. So

I don't know. It's incredibly complicated. I think having China, India, Bangladesh, Thailand, and Laos as your neighbors also makes this just incredibly challenging. You can't access the country in the way that you can for Ukraine. So just logistically, it's incredibly challenging. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It does seem still, you like you said like it's like in ukraine we also have deeply problematic groups who we are who we are arming and yeah it's it's ironic that their concern is spreading the preventing the proliferation in arms when what they've done is is helped like a giant leap forward in i don't know artisanal homemade weapons technology that like we're probably only seeing the very tip of

in our reporting. I'm sure there's more stuff that we'll see as time goes on. Billy, I wonder what can people do? People often ask where they can donate, how they can help, right? Because obviously it is extremely difficult to see little kids getting shot in schools and want to do something.

And I wonder what you would suggest for people who are looking to help we've both spoken to people who are collecting money through click to donate which is one thing people can do but um do you want to explain that actually explain how people can and can participate and click to donate because i think that's cool yeah i mean there's been a number of really fascinating fundraising models. Yeah, the Cook to NodeAid model is essentially the resistance leveraging what it has a comparative advantage in, which is huge numbers of people on their side. And essentially, the resistance creates web pages or YouTube content or anything and just engages the advertisements on those pages, which increases the value of that ad space

and then they can generate revenue that way. The National Unity Government has also done some really fascinating stuff, issuing bonds, conducting a lottery, selling off SAC military properties. I think they just sold the Men on Lines house in Yangon for a considerable amount. So it's kind of an incredible fundraising model

and requiring tremendous innovation. They also created a financial technology called NUGPay and a digital currency, DMMK. So yeah, it's kind of a remarkable innovation there. In terms of what kind of your listeners could do, I think engaging in some of the international kind of advocacy and awareness raising is really valuable. I think some of these things, like if your congressperson acknowledges demand for this, then that can increase the pressure that they put on the State Department, DOD, National Security Council,

and potentially increase the risk tolerance of the U.S. government if there's just more pressure there. So those sorts of things. I think, honestly, engaging with some of the content that's being created by the resistance, learning about Myanmar, just following the story. I mean, it's like, I don't know, you've probably experienced this doing your reporting, but it's just like the most unbelievable stories of human resilience and just like, I don't know, it's such like an honor to be nearby these people who are just risking so much for such an honorable cause that they truly believe in it's just like

the quintessential example of integrity and um yeah goodness yeah it's amazing it's stuff you couldn't make up and like it's stories you can sell as fiction almost like yeah their integrity like even there like um one thing i find absolutely amazing is like you said perspectives on ethnic groups of change on so many things that people their willingness to be like i've examined my stance on this and it was the wrong stance and i'm changing my stance on this it's like like we spoke to so many young people who were like yeah i was fairly misogynist, uh, like February 1st, 2021. And since then, like I fought alongside women. I've, uh, you know, I've, I've seen them do things that I didn't, I'd been told that they weren't capable of and I've changed. I was wrong.

And like, we need to not be a misogynist country going forward. Yeah. No, there was a, I was, you may, maybe, you know, this group, but I was engaging with, uh, uh, armed organization that was, it's led by kind of an activist, former activist. And he was kind of saying that they've essentially tried to eliminate all of the sort of misogyny in their training protocols. Like even just using terms like man up or something is like wiped it from their approach because it's like that's a misogynistic kind of you know approach to thinking about strength and power and so it's like that what you're saying is i'm here i'm feeling the same hearing the same things it's which is incredibly powerful given particularly given the pressures and what they're all going through just having the wherewithal to kind of pick their head

ups and think about, you know, be reflective of themselves. Like imagine in the American political discourse, people actually changing their minds for once. It's remarkable. Yeah, yeah, no, it genuinely is. And it's refreshing in that sense to see people like wanting the right thing and not letting tiny differences like blow them into several thousand different pieces, right? Like broadly agreeing on one thing. Yeah, exactly.

And that's kind of the remarkable, I mean, the National Unity Consultative Council, for example, you know, it's had its challenges as a dialogue platform, but it's still going. And that is like, people are still coming to the table. And frankly, it's remarkable because repeatedly in quote unquote,

peace processes in Myanmar's history, they've collapsed because someone said something and another party left the table and didn't return. So the fact that these dialogues are continuing on is an incredible testament to people's willingness to kind of open up and be more humble and kind of consider the other's opinion and question their own, which is, you know, a lesson we could all learn.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Billy, where can people like, where can people find you online and where can they find more good information about Myanmar? I am, you know, if you search Billy Ford at USIP.org, you can find the stuff I've written recently. And then I'm on Twitter at B-I-L-L-E-E, the number four, the letter D. And good sources of information. I mean, there's great investigative work by Myanmar Witness, which is just an incredible group of researchers.

which is just an incredible group of researchers. There's been a couple of good reports recently by Global Witness and Earth Rights related to sanctions that just came out. USIP, you can check out some of our writing. My colleagues Jason Tower and Priscilla Klopp just published something related to how the conflict has regional consequences that could be of interest. related to how the conflict has regional consequences that could be of interest. And there's, I don't know, there's innumerable great Myanmar think tanks.

The Chin Human Rights Organization has done some incredible research and reporting about military atrocities in Chin state. You could go on and on. But yeah, if you, I don't know, check out my Twitter. I tend to repost stuff that I find fascinating and there's a lot out there. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much for giving us some of your time this afternoon.

I really appreciate it. It's good to catch up. Yeah, thanks for having me, James. It's been great. No worries. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow Brass. Thanks for listening. terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature.

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