It Could Happen Here - The Lunar New Years Special: Part 1

Episode Date: February 1, 2022

In part 1 of our special Lunar New Years episode Mia is joined by JN, a member of the Lausan Collective, and Jane Shi, a poet, writer, and organizer to discuss organizing in the Chinese diaspora, the deployment of anti-Asian violence by reactionaries to strengthen the police against Black and Indigenous people, and our favorite Chinese New Years foods   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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yeah uh welcome welcome to the year of the tiger uh this is a special special lunar new year's edition of it could happen here a podcast that is today just about well it's still about sort of things falling apart and things being rebuilt but i wanted to specifically you know do do it do it do a special new year's episode and spend some time i think talking about chinese-ness and how what sort of being a part of the chinese diaspora in sort of in the us and canada is like and you know how that how the influence is how we organize how what we're afraid of what we're sort of in the US and Canada is like and you know how that how the influences how we organize how what we're afraid of what we're sort of proud of and with me to talk about this we have JN

who I think first time ever returning guest yeah who is it works with Laos on hello JN oh what an honor thanks thanks for inviting me back yeah thank you for coming and we also have jane shi who is a queer chinese settler living in unceded traditional and ancestral territories in the musqueam sasquamish and slay with tooth uh nations in what is falsely and fakely considered canada um she is a poet, writer, editor, and an organizer, and does many other cool things. Hello, Jane. Welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me.

Just wanted to share that it's Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh. Yeah, sorry. Unfortunately, I do not live up north, and so my pronunciations of tribal names are even worse than they are for the tribal names that are around me. So my apologies. No worries, no worries. Yeah.

stuff i wanted to because this is the this if you you will be listening to well okay unless you're listening to this on monday night in which case uh congratulations on beating time but most of you're probably gonna be listening to listening to this on uh on lunar new year's and so i wanted to before yeah before everything gets completely dark i want to know what you choose favorite chinese new year's food is because this is like maybe my favorite holiday and what it's basically my favorite holiday because in in grand chinese tradition it's just an excuse to eat a lot so yeah opening the floor up yeah i think you're the expert here jane so feel free to i am not lay down the knowledge i am not an expert just because uh I fold dumplings does not mean um I'm an expert but I I mean I haven't spent like lunar new year's with really that many other people in a very long time

so my sense of like breadth of food has really really narrowed to what is available to me um and I also have been really struggling with the dumplings that I've been making because of like carpal tunnel issues but I've been thinking a lot about jellyfish lately. Like I keep thinking about jellyfish and I keep thinking about like the sesame, anything with sesame in it. Yeah. And like just boiled dumplings, I feel like are really great for me at this particular moment. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. My favorite is in Cantonese, it's called Ningo, which is, it's a homonym. You stole mine. Oh, really?

Yeah. It's amazing, right? It is. Yeah. And the way my mom used to make it all the time was like dipping it in an egg first. Oh, cool.

And so it has this kind of like eggy crust on it which is really really awesome and i've been making that for the past couple years myself uh where i am and i can't wait to uh go to the grocery store and grab some because it's only available around this time yep i guess they don't really produce it any other time and uh last time i went to visit my mom she like loaded my suitcase full of them and I wasn't able to eat them fast enough, unfortunately. And some of them went bad. Oh no, we have a, we have one in our refrigerator. I think it's, I think it's, it was in the freezer.

It's now I think in the refrigerator and we're, we're all incredibly excited to cut into it on New Year's. Yeah. Do you, do you guys do the uh because i know so we normally have red bean ones i know there's like brown sugar ones or something that are like plain wait i just wanted to check like is it mangal yeah or at least yeah like so like the sort of like flower thing that is like shaped like a semicircle? Yeah, wait. I feel like there's different like...

Yeah, we usually cut them into like square strips, but I think that's just like a cooking ease of cooking thing. Yeah, and it usually comes with like a date or something on top. Yeah. Yeah. when it's packaged that is so interesting because i feel like the nangal that i grew up with doesn't usually have

a lot of thing on it it's kind of like sticky and kind of plain and i'm just this is this is a new thing for me yeah yeah the one we usually get just has red beans in it and then there's like the one date on the top oh i don't know if you're thinking of like town you can go which is like a different type of dish um where it's like white rice cakes and then you you can like it's like saucy and then yeah like different ingredients in it yeah i think it's a different ours are just you put different ingredients in it. Yeah, I think it's a different... Ours are just... They're pretty close to the... It's like a sweet dessert.

Yeah, I think I'm just talking about just regular nangal. They're just like... They're basically plain, but there's some red bean stirred into the dough and then it's just like the flat brown thing that you like fry

yeah that's what i'm thinking yeah all right this is this we've now done dessert chat honestly much much less grim time than most of the stuff that happens on here and you have all been now subjected to it i go eat chinese new year's food it's great uh yeah so on to things that are somewhat more grim um i think there's there's two big things i want to talk about that sort of related to like i guess chinese diaspora ness um i guess we can start with talking a bit about anti-asian violence and police violence because i mean it's not like so my sort of into this is that my, my, someone, okay, so, one of the things that's happened in the past about two years was this huge sort of spike in anti-Asian violence. But then, you know, part of what happens politically around that was there was this huge attempt to essentially turn anti-asian violence into i guess like the anti-blm like especially in the u.s but i think i think this happened

elsewhere too where there was it didn't i don't know it it it worked in some places and didn't work in other places so i went to the university of chicago and a few is it a few months ago now maybe just a couple like a month or two ago a uh asian chinese international student like got shot on campus and this turned into a huge sort of like bring more cops on campus there was this huge petition that got signed it was the people were like asking for more security cameras and asking for more cops and like the ucpd like a couple weeks later just like shot a dude and so that there's been i've been seeing this tension a lot i was wondering if you

two had also sort of run into similar stuff and what your thoughts were on it um i mean i feel like unfortunately with canada there's like this dynamic where we look to the states for news and validation in this weird way that I find really delegitimizes the unique struggles that are here that are different. And there are, there's a different kind of police system. There's like the local police, like Vancouver Police Department, but then there's also the RCMP, the Royal Mount Canadian Police,

which are in other municipalities. And the RCMP was created specifically as a tool of settler colonialism to enforce the Indian Act, which is, I guess, the most succinctly way I can put it is segregation of indigenous peoples from settlers. And there was a lot of displacement of Black communities across Canada, and there was also slavery in Canada, even though we like to pretend that there wasn't. And so against this background, I guess, and ongoing police brutality, whether it's in Wet'suwet'en territories or just the police killing people, there's a lot of mainstream Asian-Canadian and Chinese-Canadian institutions that are very, very much complicit in the system. Like there is an organization, an immigrant Chinese Canadian organization in Vancouver, who one of the board members is a cop who is married to a,

a, a city councillor. And a lot of the discourse that institutions, not people themselves necessarily, but institutions create around, for example, the revitalization of Chinatown or the preservation of culture is around, oh, there's graffiti in the neighborhood. Chinatown in Vancouver is in the downtown east side, which is considered the poorest post-sickhold in Canada.

And it's like a tight-knit community with a lot of Indigenous peoples, Black people, a lot of indigenous peoples, Black people, people in poverty struggling against the poisoning massacre, wherein the government is not providing safe supply, and where the police just kind of, like, are everywhere, pointing guns at everyone, displacing the tent cities and so when there is an easy not an easy but just like a demonized group of people that um the general public doesn't know enough about um if you walk through the downtown east side and talk to people you would talk to people about their experiences with residential school, their experiences with missing family members, experiences with poverty. And in the broadest terms, it's like the way that Chinatown is being gentrified, people tend to blame the poor. And there's like this divide and conquer mentality within the Asian diaspora

within the Chinese diaspora specifically and so similar to what happened with um Michelle Goh similar to her um there was a South Asian elderly woman who a group of people who lived in the tent city had killed pretending to be cops when they knocked on her door. And one of the city councillors in Vancouver was like, we need to stop indulging in these tent cities. we need to stop indulging in these tent cities. Meanwhile, there's a lot of like marginalized people in these tent cities who, who, who cats, who need to live there because it's COVID times and society has abandoned them. So it's like anti-Asian racism and violence has also the hate the so-called hate crime thing has so

apparently increased um and I don't think that it hasn't increased it's just that like the way that the media the way that the institutions within Canada is also jumping onto the police wagon, the police, the hate crime angle, rather than learn from abolitionists, rather. Yeah, this is a long way of putting it. It's like similar. It's similar. And I know a lot of details. Yes. yes welcome I'm Danny Threl won't you join me at the fire and dare enter

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I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Yeah, I mean, I think that, yeah, I think that tracks. I mean, the targets are slightly different just based on sort of snares, but on the sort of local context. But I think that does, I mean, the targets are slightly different just based on citrus news, but on the sort of local context. But I think that does, yeah, that tracks a lot with what we've been seeing here as, I think there's another thing that, I don't know. So I really don't like the term, like, because the, is it the Twitter hashtag?

Stop Asian hate. Like, I hate that framing of it as sort of hatred not racism but even the sort of the anti-asian violence framing which i've been used a lot i think has problems because you know i mean this is one of the things you're talking about one of the things that i've seen a lot is just you know anytime like you know there are genuine sort of racism attacks right but then there's also just like i mean one of the sort of scare things that happened here was it was like a bunch of people's like a bunch of restaurant chinese restaurants got broken into and robbed and everyone was like well this is anti-asian violence it's like well no like this is just theft and and

there's there's been this sort of like collapsing of something bad happens to an asian person with specifically sort of like targeted racist attacks and i think that's been well i mean that's been a problem and there's also the secondary problem of you know who even gets included in this in the first place like one of the biggest things i've been frustrated about is you know the sort of the selective inclusion of south asian people like i there there was there was a shooting at a fedex uh facility last year by a guy who was like very much very far right kind of like pilled online guy and it killed a bunch of seek workers and there was never there was just nothing like no one talked about as anti-asian violence but then you know selectively you get inclusions of southeast asian people when it's like it's it's

like people get folded into being asian when it's like useful to call for more police but then when it's you know not useful for that or when it's you know especially when it's working class people getting killed there's just sort of nothing and i've been i don't know i've been really frustrated by this dynamic a lot um yeah and jane i want to know what you think about this too because i have no talks long enough about yeah i mean you know wasn't there there was a hate crime bill that was passed in congress right uh and it was supposedly quote-unquote supposed to be addressing all this quote-unquote anti-asian hate stuff and you know the only thing it accomplished was it created like some some government organ to like oversee these efforts to address hate crimes and then more funding for the police. Right. So I think it was it was a very kind of direct impact.

We could just see how this discourse transformed into exactly what a lot of organizers had said would would happen which is more funny for the police and not making communities safer right so um i i think the real conundrum for me and i think that really kind of you know i spent a lot of time thinking about this and i get i get kind of frustrated is um you know whenever these these attacks happen on you know as Asian heritage or Asian identified people. Um, the response, I mean, it's, it's a good nature and it's well-meaning and I agree with it, but you know, the response is always like the, the telling folks who have been victimized or those who know them, um, that more police is not the answer. Right. And, you know, I think that's true, but then I think what I'm struggling with

is how to make this message resonate with those folks, right? Because I think there's a way that, in some ways, that can alienate them even more and make them even more reaction, right? Because that's, you know, the media has often spun that argument. They use further instances of violence to spin that argument of like, when people say the answer is not more cops, it doesn't make us safer. The media is able to spin that to say, look,

this isn't working, right? Things are actually getting more dangerous. All the kind of like scaremongering tactics with crime statistics and all that stuff, which are usually false anyway. So I think that's what I'm trying to figure out now is like, you know, cause in, in Chinatown, LA where, you know, where I've done some work, there was community meetings with CCD, the Chinatown uh committee for equitable uh oh what's what's the d stand for i always forget uh develop um they had some meetings with community

folks to kind of like you know hear what hear what they wanted to uh do to address this and they they kind of like a lot of those organizers had um you know they're coming from that viewpoint that calling for more cops is not the answer and so some uh of the male they're from the community but they're not they weren't part of the kind of like senior population of chinatown which is you know it's like low-income seniors is kind of like are the folks that are being pushed out and by developers and all the gentrification happening as well um some of some men were kind of like okay well we should start uh kind of like orange neighborhood watch um and you know i think in in some way that taps into this kind of like we protect us type of uh ethos right? It's not relying on a state or government

or whatever police paramilitary force. But then I think the question that some folks had, I heard the second hand was that, are these people actually from the community and are they actually doing this to address the needs of the folks who are most affected by it? Right. And so I think some folks were uncomfortable with the idea that there should be these kind of like street patrols. And so there's there's just so many different ways to approach this.

And I haven't, you know, I'm not laying blame on anyone, but I just haven't seen an effective way to counteract that call for more police yet. people who experience like various forms of sexual violence or street harassment that sense of unsafety is amplified when we witness other people getting murdered in public spaces and so I think in a way it's like understandable why people want to grasp for any kind of solution and and also why that kind of trauma can be weaponized or like taken advantage of immediately like just because I'm like who asked for you to be street proof trolls of Chinatown who decided that you make the community safer have you consulted the seniors have you have you talked with all of the seniors all of the elders to ask them like how would you feel if i did that like where is that suggestion coming from and i think that like the other argument is that like mental health resources is an alternative

to policing even though um policing and mental health systems are very very very connected Edward Wong has an article about that in upping the ante and I don't know I just think that like there has to be like a way to talk about this without invalidating each other's trauma and invalidating people's survival instincts as well because I feel like for years as someone who's done work in the anti-violence sector it's not that I wanted there to be more policing it's just that like a lot of survivors might be like hey I actually do want to use the court system because this person is dangerous like that's like as somebody supporting a survivor I can't just go no you're wrong less cops right like that's that's not um a compassionate response and it's also not a compassionate response to go hey you're making this like all about yourself and you should like be talking about like Black and Indigenous people.

Like that's also really insensitive. is like a way to talk about abolition that really needs to respect every survivor or every like communities like trauma and it's not an easy thing because it's not like our communities have had a good way to respond to trauma like we haven't really like we're still breaking the cycles of intergenerational trauma yeah and i think this this kind of comes back to another sort of difficulty of this whole project because you know a lot of the sort of the abolitionist framework is about like transitioning things towards community solutions but like what is that you know like what what does that even mean when you're dealing with you know this is this is part of the problem with well okay you have armed self-defense groups but you know what happens

when inevitably and this is this is just something that happens just you know this is this is this is the nature of security forces right is eventually you're going to get abusers in it and it's like okay well what happens then and what happens when you know like the abusers are people inside the community and and this is compounded i think by this problem of like what like what even you know the the i i think i think there's there's there's there's a broader problem of like what asianness is and there's a broader and this is this is also sort of localized problem of like what even like is the chinese community at all because you're dealing with something that's incredibly fragmented you're dealing people who speak different languages you're dealing with

people who've been in these places for you know some people have been here for centuries some people who've been here like two months and i think that makes it really difficult in a lot of ways to sort of like even even just bring together something that could be a community and i know i know what happens and i know you know there's there's lots of different sort of like fragmented communities but but i think it makes this harder because there isn't a sort of like ready-made thing you can turn to and go okay well this is how we're going like this is the group of people and this is the sort of like social sphere and this is the community that we're going to turn to to sort of deal with this stuff there's just this kind of a bunch of amorphous different groups

and then also you have the problem that like you know if you're going to talk about like political forces in asian communities like the business associations are extremely powerful and you know we have different objectives than they do but they're also like extremely well organized in a way that most other sort of like chinese groups aren't i don't know that that's that's that's been where my thinking has been going on this Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories

inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them. Blacklit is

here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising wherever you get your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast,

and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field,

and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Yeah, I think there's some resonance with what you're saying and the kind of dynamics that you're identifying and what I've kind of witnessed and experienced in like Hong Kong diaspora organizing.

Which I think, you know, there's a lot of overlap with that same type of like, you know, small business organization type of thing that usually dominates Chinatowns across North America, which is the case in LA. And actually CCED spends a lot of time fighting the small business organizations because they are very friendly with developers and they're usually pro-securitization and anti-poor folks and all that kind of stuff. So there is that element, right, where a lot of the times, you know,

you are fighting against people who might have the same heritages, for example. And, you know, for me personally, that's very much the case with Hong Kong diaspora groups, right? Because, you know, many of them are very conservative, are right-wing, and not only just kind of held personal beliefs, but advocate a lot for these kind of, you know, these policies and politicians and all these different things that I really can't stand and I'm aligned against. And, you know, I think it's

a lot of folks want to take the kind of pragmatist route of like, we'll work with you on things that we, where we have points of unity. Otherwise we don't. Whereas, you know, I guess some people see me as a little bit more rigid in the sense that like, I don't want to work with these folks at all because I see them as kind of themselves as, as a force that is causing more harm than good. Especially if with these Hong Kong diaspora groups, the usual mantra is like Hong Kong first, like everything that we do is serving Hong Kong. And that in the diaspora, that usually means kind of like non-partisanship, lobbying Congress, all those different things. like non-partisanship, lobbying Congress, all those different things.

And then kind of like completely ignoring or being agnostic of local and domestic issues to oversimplify a little bit. So, you know, I think that's been on my mind a lot. I know your question was about Chineseness, but I guess for me, that kind of filters a little bit further down to like, what is being a Hong Konger, right? Yeah. It's really difficult to organize with your specific quote unquote ethnic or diaspora community when the meaning of diaspora is not a cohesive community but people's memories of home um it's like a difficult thing to kind of but but your head against because it's like

you have your um diversity equity inclusion framework of organizing and then you have the everyday like what what what these frameworks can't simplify which is the tensions between your communities like I didn't grow up experiencing overt racist violence when I grew up in Richmond. Richmond is an extremely East Asian and Chinese suburb that saw first, not first, but just like at some point a wave of Hong Kong diaspora because of 1997 and then afterwards more like mainlanders um and so on the playground somebody was like are you from Taiwan mainland or or Hong Kong and that was when I was like seven and that was my introduction to what it means to be in diaspora in this particular kind of way and um being like just right like in that and in that and and figuring yourself out within that and seeing how there is just an absence of community

because of how like these different geopolitical experiences have like separated us and made it more difficult. Like when we filter our parents' political beliefs onto each other, it's kind of like this awkward thing. But I think that like in trying to contend with that in the present, in in trying to contend with that in the in the present it's sort of like um we have these older institutions that other people that that the older generations have built what new things can we build what things can we um because i i feel like i'm I'm really rigid too I'm like really not great at yeah talking across the aisle and when I do it's not it's not really about anything substantive it's like hey like hi it's good to see you know like when you live in a place you you don't want to make like make enemies but like it's it's a really hard thing um and it's even more heartbreaking

when you find out slowly that people are just taking advantage of you right like and i i don't know it's it's a it's a really difficult thing to organize against when you're like you all hate me great love it this has been It Could Happen Here. Join us for part two of this discussion tomorrow, where we go into more detail on the state of the left. In the meantime, you can find us at HappenHerePod on Twitter and Instagram.

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