It Could Happen Here - The Most Extremely Trans Healthcare Ban You've Never Heard Of

Episode Date: April 13, 2026

Mia talks with David Forbes, editor and journalist with the Trans News Network, about her work covering the Catholic Church’s draconian trans healthcare ban and how Catholic hospitals spread across the healthcare system. Cool Zone is nominated for 3 Webby Awards! Submit your votes by April 16th or we'll hunt down your family.   Behind the Bastards - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/features/experimental-innovation  It Could Happen Here - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/limited-series-specials/news-politics  Migrating to America - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/limited-series-specials/documentary   Sources: https://transnews.network/p/u-s-catholic-bishops-launch-attack-on-trans-healthcare-it-s-time-to-fight-back https://transnews.network/p/it-s-a-nightmare-the-human-toll-of-the-catholic-church-s-trans-healthcare-banSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I am your host, Mia Wong. And today we are going to be talking about, frankly, the largest and most draconian trans health care band in the country. And the unexpected place that, well, I don't know if unexpected is the right word, but the ignored place that it's come from. And with me with me to talk about this ban is David Forbes, who is an editor and a journalist with the Trans News Network. David, welcome to the show.

Always good to be here. I once again, back to my, I wish I could have people on the show to talk about like cool and normal things, but, you know, we get that sometimes. This is not one of those stories. I mean, we're trans journalists in a dying empire. Yeah.

Let's, let's, yeah. So speaking of bad things happening in dying empires, do you want to take us sort of, to the start of this healthcare ban and what we're even talking about here because it's not a government health care ban in the way that I think people expect. No, and that's actually really important

to all this story because a lot of the attention in health care bans has been on governments and occasionally hospitals, like secular hospital systems, refusing to provide care because they're scared of the federal government. So it's been a, the military is a fight between governments or fight over stuff happening at legislatures. And to be clear, that stuff is absolutely important.

Yeah, yeah. However, this ban wasn't put in place by a legislature. It's not any institution that people have even the facade of an ability to really influence. On November 12th, 2025, a complete and total trans-health care ban, medications as well as surgeries, adults as well as youth, was put in place throughout every health care system. run by the Catholic Church in the U.S. Yeah, and that has not really, like, I don't know, like, I've talked about it. Like, we've mentioned it on the show before. I don't know if I've really seen any other, like, systemic large-scale coverage of it.

I mean, there were, like, a couple of articles when it came out. But other than TNN, like, this has been almost completely ignored, even though it is more draconian than any health care ban that has gone into effect anywhere in the country. It is a, again, as you said, this is a total health care ban for children and adults. Yes. And for all types of trans health care. Yeah, for everything. Yeah, and that's the thing.

So, and I've honestly been a little surprised by that, even old and cynical as I am. But TNN, as far as I know, is one of the only outlets, including queer and trans media. I won't say the only, but one of the only. that has done ongoing coverage on this, let alone in-depth, extensive, what are the roots of this, how did we get here, kind of coverage. I've done two articles on it, and those were in December. So a few weeks after it passed, we kind of went in detail on what it meant and the implications of which were and have proven to be pretty horrifying. And also the Catholic Church has pretty horrific history as an institution. While individual Catholics have a, as we'll get to, of a wide range of

beliefs, including on trans rights, the institution itself has always been highly abusive, highly reactionary and incredibly opposed to our very existence. And that just hasn't changed. It's actually escalating. And then we did one just last week that was on the actual impact. Like, we talked to trans people around the country who've encountered the impact of the bishop's ban, as I've heard a few folks call it, and I've called it a few times myself, and what it means for their lives in the ground. So I guess there's two points we should hit immediately. One is sort of how this happened and like how this band sort of came together and was

voted on by like who. And the second one is how many people this affects? Because I think this is the part that's really been ignored, which is that like Catholic hospitals, it's not like they're running like 10 of these. I mean, it would be bad if they were running 10 of these. But this is a significant part of the entire U.S. healthcare system. Yes, a massive part of it. Yeah.

I think that that's very important to kind of touch on. So this was passed in November at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, which they, you know, have regular meetings and decide policies and stuff. And it's one of the things, and this is going to be a recurring theme in this is the degree to which I think, even people think of themselves as progressives, being fairly left, have kind of bought hook line and sinker some of the propaganda. And it is overwhelmingly propaganda coming out of the Catholic Church since the mid-2010s when Pope Francis got in. So you were seeing from this conference, the big news in a lot of progressive circles was, oh, well, they made this statement against the Trump administration immigration. Yeah. But here's a thing. That was a statement.

Mm-hmm. Certainly it's, you know, better than if they supported ICE, but it was a symbolic step largely. Yeah, like they didn't even do like the very baseline thing, which would be like excommunicating JD Vance, a thing they could do and did it because they're fucking cowards. Yeah. But they didn't even do that. Yes. And we're going to get back to that. It often worse than cowers.

Yeah. So at this conference, that got most of the headlines, but they also passed this very draconian anti-trans health care ban. Yeah. It passed overwhelmingly. This was not like some narrow victory by the conservative faction. No, it was almost everyone. It passed 206 to 7.

Yeah. Jesus Christ. It's your Stigley. It was interesting listening to some of the proceedings of this, which may not be great for mental health, but was quite informative. Yeah. And one of the, one of the bishops involved, Robert Barron, cited Pope Francis, who was held out, even sadly by some queer media as being this, you know, step forward for queer and trans rights, which I think was completely a farce, held out his rampant transphobia, which he was always very clear about, and quoted him saying that viewed the existence of trans people. They used the far right term gender ideology as, and I quote, repugnant to the Bible and to our tradition. You could not ask for a more clear statement of hatred and extermination.

against trans people. Yeah. I mean, that's it. This is not an institution that, you know, is slowly but surely getting better. This institution that outside of the PR... It's getting worse. Yeah, is digging in on doing really very reactionary harm. And so the effects of that were pretty devastating and immediate.

I mean, we'll get into some folks who dealt with stuff later that same month due to the span in a little bit. But, like, the Catholic Church's health care networks are massive. By some estimates, one in six, one in seven, of all people in the U.S. go through a Catholic health care system at some point in a given year. Yeah. It doesn't just include a few hospitals and includes an incredibly sprawling network of clinics and specialists and doctors practices. Plenty of them are not outwardly Catholic even.

So people may be going to a practice owner of the Catholic Church and not even be aware of it. It's also expanding. It's taking over and buying out previously secular practices. And this is a multifaceted problem. It goes along. with cuts in federal aid. It goes along with the general, like, capitalist fervor that kind of grips secular health care as well. So if they cut services, the Catholic Church often buys them up and expands. So it affects everyone in that. Yeah. Everyone who deals with that. And the Catholic tears has never been pro-trans remotely. But previously, prior to this ban, there was kind of a hodgepodge and some local ambiguities. And there were cases that we'll get into some of them a second,

where local pro-trans Catholics or folks working at those networks could and did provide pretty substantial trans care through like one ambiguity or loophole or another. That just ended. All of it. Yeah. So throughout that entire network in some states, and ones you wouldn't necessarily think, including ones like Oregon of Washington that are ostensibly supposed to have like pretty strict trans health care protections, Catholic hospitals comprise like over a third of hospital bids. and I think Washington is over 40%. So we're talking about of health care beds.

We're talking about a substantial part of the American health care system. Four and ten of the largest healthcare networks are Catholic. That's how extensive this was. And now trans health care is banned in all of them. Absolutely. Yeah.

And that's something that has an absolutely massive rolling impact, right? Because again, it's not just that it's like outwardly Catholic hospitals and something I think you're going to talk about more later, but it's also like it's people who have health care plans through like something that's

affiliated with the church. There are all of these ways in which, you know, suddenly just enormous numbers of people had their health care taken away effectively overnight. Because the primary way that anti-trans healthcare repression has been understood

has been for the state level. And I understand why it's like that because like a lot of it has been coming from the state both on, this is where you get to confusing American terminology, but both in terms of the federal government and the state level governments, right? Like people have been a huge focus on that,

but the distribution of the Catholic health care system is cutting through the lines of what people sort of had previously assumed to be safe. Yes. And this is something that is a threat to trans people effectively everywhere. And it's compounding, as you're talking

more earlier with the sort of crisis of affordability and coverage because a lot of these healthcare clinics and hospitals and practices are the ones that are actually covered by insurance. Yes. And you can get a situation where, like, they're secular ones, but you can't go to them because they're not covered by your fucking insurance, so they're unbelievably expensive. And this gets to a reality that goes through a lot of our coverage, which is that trains people are an overwhelmingly working class demographic. Yeah.

I don't think that gets said enough. it doesn't get picked, even in some queer and trans media. But that is incredibly important here. I began the second story with an interview that we published with an interview with Beth, who's a trans woman in the Midwest, and found it nearly impossible to find health care outside of their networks. Because like a lot of trans people, Beth has an ACA plan. And because the secular networks are a little more expensive, some cases a lot more expensive,

the ACA plans that are available to most trans people, you know, that they can remotely afford, don't cover health care there. So you kind of have to, and then they don't provide your health care at all. Yeah. And in that case, this was someone,

she'd been going across state borders, which she noticed kind of wild to get health care anyway, to go to Planned Parenthood, finally thought that she had found a practice closer to home, went there before the bishops ban, like right before it hit. They seemed very welcoming. She knew other trans people that had gotten a care of their,

before and everything seemed great goes back after the ban and it's like oh i'm sorry we can't help you and this wasn't a practice that was obviously catholic it you know did no giant cruise fixes or anything hanging on it yeah it was just one that was in oh it's a doctor's office some other trans you've gotten care there beats driving at least an hour each way if not more yeah again you know when you're working glass a two-hour you know round trip commute is a lot that's you know especially with gas being up more Like, that's a lot of money and it's strained things even further. And so she had to go back to traveling across state. But, you know, I think some folks assume, and she points out like, oh, you just go to another provider, you often can't.

There's not that option. Yeah, there isn't one. Even in some fairly major cities, there is not that option unless you have a lot more money or health care through a fairly well-heeled employer. And a lot of us don't. You know, this is another one of the problems here, which is that trans people are overwhelmingly working. class, it is one of the worst demographics, a poverty rate of any, of like any demographic group in the U.S. Yes.

The unemployment levels are, like, like, this was like 23, back when the economy was, like, working was like 1936 Great Depression levels. Yes. Incarceration rates, education rates, it's all among the poorest of the poor. Yeah. Yeah. It's all apocalypticly bad. Yeah.

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I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of them. And I was, hi, Dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen. And she says, I have some cookies and milk. This is his badass convict. Right. Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk at my mom.

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Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic. And without this trouble, I'm going to die. Open your free I-Heart radio app. Search the Cito Show and listen now. Then there is the issue, and this is an issue that we've covered on this show from other lenses, which is that, like, Yeah, like we're dealing with these like large scale waves of hospital closures.

Yeah. And the less hospitals that exist in an area, and particularly in the sort of working class areas where these people are living, right, the more of those hospitals close because those are the ones that are closing because they're losing a whole bunch of funding from the government. Yeah. And, you know, there's like there's a series of other economic pressures there. The more of those options disappear,

the more reliant people are on on these Catholic hospitals, which have just implemented an adult health care ban. Yeah. Like, the Republicans in Congress aren't pushing that right now. No. Like, I cannot emphasize how unbelievably draconian and reactionary this is. Yes. Well, and also, they're doing it the same time that you have major progressive media

figures, legislators, praising the current Pope for uttering some words about universal health care. They don't practice universal health care. No, they do. Not just with trans people, but definitely not with. trans people. It's like they have the money to. Like they could. Yeah. And they don't. There's a story in investigating this that really stood out to me. And it was from a pharmacy intern, basically, someone who's been studying to be a pharmacist and did a, you know, a stint, a training

stint in a Catholic hospital right before the bishop's ban hit and said that they were doing at least one gender affirming procedure a week. Jesus Christ. A week. And that actually, you know, this was someone who had dealt with the institution to Ford and had not got great experiences. And was actually heading into this, you know, kind of this 12-week extent, expecting to have to deal with, you know, the problems of being a trans person with a religious institution. And I actually said, no, that this particular hospital, the folks who work, they were super pro-trans, super accepting.

They were actively providing trans care and mentioned even because it was a moral area. And that's that stat alone that it was, you know, a gender affirming care procedure most weeks should be a reminder that a lot of trans people also don't live in major cities. Yeah. They live in smaller cities. They live in small towns, rural areas even. By a mile, actually, the region of the U.S. with the largest trans population is the South.

Yeah. And the Midwest is very closely tied with the West, which includes the West Coast, for second. So they mentioned that there's this was a sense of the staff, like, look, if you're in L.A., okay, there's a bunch of Catholic hostels, a bunch of other ones, too. So the people seeking out Catholic hospitals Maybe a bit more conservative. There are more likely to be other alternatives

Now so healthcare access may a problem there too. But in war era, the kind of staff had a sense Look if we don't do it and no one else will. Yeah. And so they didn't be pretty pro-trains. The loophole they used, the ambiguity, I guess the very short way used was if an insurer secular or otherwise

said, hey, this procedure is necessary, they didn't question it. And under the previous pre-Bishop's situation, there was kind of that a bit of that leeway. This is an example of, you know, some of them Catholic, pro-trans folks in a rural area

actually doing some real good. And then because they kind of maneuvered in this gray area and this band just completely ended that. Yeah. They also described because they actually had top surgery schedules at this same hospital and the band hit.

And they're very thankful to the doctor who did, you know, surgeries at that hospital who intentionally just kind of kept them on the schedule and they did it anyway. Incredible. Yeah, but like we need way more of that, but also it just got a lot more difficult and a lot more hurdles where we're placed in the way of that. So like what was happening just got cut off.

Yeah, and this is also a really, a really significant issue because trans health care is already, even before this, you know, like the wait list for things like top surgery, things like bottom surgery or sometimes years long, even in places that have like, quote unquote, like good health care, right? Like even in places like Oregon or like, you know, in places like L.A. Like you're dealing with multi-year wait list to get these procedures. And suddenly like a seventh of all the people doing this are just gone. And that just contributes even if you can get. And some places half. Yeah, yeah. And the number of people who do these procedures is so small that if you are looking to get these procedures, like you can talk to the trans people in your area and they will know every single doctor who does it.

Yeah. Right. Because there's like three, maybe. If you're lucky, there's like three. Usually there's like one. Like even on the HRT front, sometimes, you know, and I can speak from experience on this, you know, it's often kind of an icebreaker of like,

oh, you know, which medical practice is giving you your HRT and down because there's like two, maybe three if you're lucky. Yep. And that's maybe for a whole region. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of transport, maybe even most live outside of what you think of the few, you know, major metropolis.

But also, while I was looking into this, there was a case in 2017, before the bishop's ban, where a Catholic hospital in California, which on paper at least has fairly strong trans health care protections for the U.S., where a priest with no medical experience, comes in last minute, vetoes the top surgery for a trans man. And they kick him out on the streets still on the drugs, the pre-surgery drugs. What the fuck? Jesus Christ. He sued them. rightly. But like, you know, this is a hospital in New York, California. We go into it a little bit in the story. So, like, that was happening before, but that's not everywhere. Yeah. And the few cases like the hospital that we mentioned, where there were folks

working around that to still provide some health care, that's probably gone now. I would say it's almost certainly gone unless folks are really just breaking the rules, which they should. Yeah. But this is sort of the systemic problem with having the church hierarchy, having control over these healthcare institutions, which is that even if you are just like in the institution trying to do good and you believe in the right thing and you're trying to do the right thing, it doesn't matter.

Yeah. Because suddenly just the hammer can come down on you from above. Even if you keep doing it, right, there's always just the risk that like they're just going to fire you all. At best it is highly precarious. Yeah. Yeah. And it's this really kind of, I don't know,

this kind of like brutal demonstration of the reality that in a hierarchical institution, it kind of doesn't matter what the people on the bottom believe because at the stroke of a pen, 200 reactionaries who run your fucking institution can just come in and be like, no, fuck you, none of you get health care. Yeah. Well, and not just that, but run a substantial amount of the entire American healthcare system. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and this is actually why, and this is a larger factor, I have survived the literal

fundamentalist Christian violence when I was younger. And I think this is actually something we'll probably get into it a little bit. Like, I've never gotten the aversion, especially from queer and trans organizations, to criticize their religious institutions. It didn't always used to be this way, but it's definitely been in this way, including on this issue. Because, you know, you will look in vain for a major national organization that's like taking the Catholic Church in task over this.

Yeah. Once with million dollars of budgets, you know, apparently they're high. higherups, they're too busy, you know, taking first-class flights and raking in nearly a million dollars a year while trans people can't find jobs, you know, but like, so I've never gotten the aversion because for a lot of us on their ground, for a lot of us who are among the, the many, many, many, trans people that are working class that live outside, some of the, like, you know, handful metropoli that we often get depicted as exclusively living in, fundamentalist violence,

and to be clear from plenty of Protestant evangelicals as well, never stopped. It never stopped being a very serious and real threat.

Their numbers have gone down since the 90s in the early 2000s. But it's never stopped being something you really have to have to account for whether it's

institutional, even if it's totally illegal, they'll still do it like they did in California or literal like street violence, literally like people

attacking you with weapons. So I think, I think that's definitely a factor in all this. And I think it's a sad factor in why folks haven't heard about it. And, you know, in some of the stuff I've talked about before on the show and elsewhere, I've mentioned that I think that whatever the intent behind it, the gay ink, as it were, the structure of, you know, these larger nonprofits, which you can send down to like the local and state level at some point, and the culture from them that kind of is more status quo and more so much dictates a lot of, like,

official, at least queer and trans politics, has been a disastrous failure. And I think that's even, you know, even more apparent here. This is, again, the largest most rican trans health care around the U.S. It's already happened, it's already in place. And you will look in vain for any organizing from these suits that they're supposed to protect trans rights against it. Yeah. There aren't like big lawsuits being filed.

There's not like, you know, expizase being run. They have far more resources than are, you know, worker-run newsroom. We do a lot with what we have. we encourage people to support us, but like, they have a lot more resources to make those things a large national issue. They have chosen not to, and a lot of people are going to suffer for that, are suffering for that. Yeah. And I should mention, too, on an actual policy level, like, a full-scale health care ban on adult trans health care is, like, hideously unpopular. Like, there's a reason the Republicans haven't done it. Yeah. Right? Because it's not popular.

So this is, like, this is a winning issue. Yes. Right? And they won't, fucking take up the fight because they're too busy glazing the papacy. Not just them. I mean, progressives in general are lately leasing the papacy way too much. Yeah, and it's just this issue that trickles down to like the fact that the SBC,

right, the Southern Bath is convention, the fact that there hasn't been a sort of broadscale offensive against them, you know, even though they've been like driving. Also a massive problem, yeah. Yeah, driving all of this shit for fucking ages. And they were like, you know, there was a point like a couple of years ago, but they were genuinely seriously weakened by their series of

like of internal abuse scandals. Yes. And like even though like these are like the church groups that are also backing the healthcare bans on the legislative level, there's no sort of political will to actually go to war with the right-wing churches that are doing this stuff. Well, so this is an interesting difference and relates to what we were just talking about. The sentiments I hear among trans folks in the ground, you know, working class trans folks, it's pretty anti-clerical, like to put it, to put it mildly.

It tends to be more gentry types, especially ones more in Scotson institutions or like, you know, official political culture, the gang stuff we've been mentioning, that have more of this aversion. And I will have to say it wasn't always this way. I am old enough to remember when queer organizing, taking aim at mocking, even go directly going the attack against, suing definitely. Yeah. religious institutions was a pretty common fixture.

A prominent example when I deal with this in the earlier piece as well as touching on the more recent one was Actups, 1989, stopped the church action, which you'll imagine a queer org doing an action with that title today, in which case they militantly disrupted services of St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York because of the ridiculous homophobia of the Catholic Church and its role in the Asianicides. Yeah. And if there's some video of this that we linked in that first story from Actups Archives, and I find the signs hilarious, but there's stuff that you would immediately see tone policing about, even from some queer and trans media today. Yeah. You know, oh, we shouldn't alienate normies, all this, all that. And no, hey, there was a big backlash at the time, a huge one.

The president condemned it. You know, the federal officials condemned it. The Congress critters condemned it. You know, there was this giant attack. This was unacceptable beyond the time. the pale. It also worked. The Catholic Church did start backing off their stances because they didn't want to be attacked more. And I think it's a good example that stop looking at the damn polls and just fight them. Yeah. It's generally a much better approach. And I think, I have to say, I think part of this,

as you've seen, especially with how, you know, the co-option of some of the results of equal marriage, when you saw after that era, gay in groups use that to become like the predominant force and gay keep a lot of other organizing and queer and trans activism, you saw this backing away from ever criticizing religious institutions. I mean, the advocate named Pope Francis in 2013, their person of the year. Yeah. And like this is the guy who said that, she said that gender ideology is more dangerous to the world of nuclear weapons. Yes. Median women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the honest talk podcast. I'm

Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast and IHeart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. On the Serving Pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have a little best friend compatibility test. Okay. How long have we been best friends for? Since the day, We met. As the League One volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to

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Open your free I-Heart radio app. Search the Cito Show. And listen now. Again, you know, individual Catholics are their own sets of beliefs and differ. Some are very obviously pro-trans. But, like, the institution is very unequivocal on this. It has never stopped being that. And a long-time journalist covering the Catholic Church caution that, look, the term they used was changing the tone but keeping the same music for Francis's papacy.

Yeah. And Leo is very much in that. Now, I think that actually opens up a weakness because with the, you know, revelation of the horrific levels of serial child abuse within the Catholic Church, with the, you know, atrocities on massive scales, involving in indigenous genocide, with the attacks in the 80s and 90s and 2000s about their homophobic. and the role in the ancienticides as well, like there was actually starting to be this giant institution, despite how hierarchical and unaccountable is starting to be on the back foot.

And, you know, in some places like Ireland, this has led to its power and numbers being like taking a massive hit. So there was a shift like any institution to give a hinder face. And the depressing thing is that among a lot of people

should know better, it's largely work. Yeah. And I really wish you would be less taken in by symbolism. Yep. It's also like de facto a theocracy because one of the people we talked to Allison would try to get testosterone right after the bishop's ban. They're not Catholic.

Their doctor isn't Catholic. Their pharmacy's not Catholic. So you think, okay, well, you should be able to. No, no, no. The insurance that their spouse had was technically provided through a Catholic health care network. Yeah.

So it took them months before they finally got the testosterone and so now they have to pay out of pocket for it. They can for the time being, but for working-class trans people. That's one more cost on top of everything else. And eventually, those are costs you often can't bear. So, like, that's the reality. Yeah. And the reality is unaccountable theoretic rule in areas where it's not supposed to be happening.

Exactly. Well, and potentially any area. You know, if you have a secular practice today delivers you HRT, no issue. Yeah. It could get bought out by one of these networks tomorrow. Yep. Why the fuck do these religious institutions have the ability to influence, like, health care at all? Yeah. Right. This is something you would think would be not a place where someone else's religion can suddenly. Yeah. And not even, like, that person's religion. It's like, the religious hierarchy of a church should not be able to dictate whether someone gets health care. And yet.

Yeah, this goes well beyond the, you know, even supposed power in a secular society that, religiously have, oh, we can, you know, they can make this pronouncement that applies to those who believe in that religion or that specific denomination or institution or whatever. No, this is affecting plenty of people who have never set foot in a Catholic church. Yeah. Who are remotely Catholic. Even the providers that they're going to aren't Catholic. They, and this is still happening, because that's the kind of sway in power they have. And it's not been seriously challenged, including by liberals and even too many leftists. And you mentioned to the Southern Baptist convention earlier, it isn't just the Catholic

Church, but because of the sheer scale and the centralized nature of its hierarchy, they are certainly probably the single most damaging institution on this front. The SVC is a problem while they operate on far too vast a scale they don't operate in the scale the Catholic Church

does. Yeah, and this is like, this is fundamentally part of the issue here is just there's a, I don't know if advantage is the right term here, but like the centralization of the Catholic Church relative to like the sort of divided

Protestant denominations allows them to wield power like collectively in a way that is a lot harder for something like the SBC where it just doesn't have the scale that like that the church does and like that the Catholic Church doesn't

because the Catholic Church is this large is able to just buy out this much of the hospital system and then because of the top down structures where the bishops can just go and vote and do and implement the stuff it's a really really really significant problem yes that is just not being dealt with this is not a problem that you can just like snap your fingers and solve by like running stuff through a state legislature

no like you actually have to go after the institution you have to fight them on their ground yes and also this is you know it's it's kind of what i ended the december piece with but also it's something then I emphasized in the second one, anyone who wants any kind of liberatory future, regardless of whatever their personal beliefs are, anti-clericalism has to be part of it. It's not the same against being against every individual of a certain religion.

It is specifically against this kind of theocratic hierarchy and its power over people's lives. You do not get to anything remotely liberatory without directly attacking and challenging that. And for too long, that struggle's largely been abandoned. Yeah. And not shockingly, fundamentalist of various varieties.

And let's be honest, primarily Christian fundamentalists have played a major role in American fascism. Yep. And in stripping rights from entire groups. And it's interesting because you mentioned the council bishop beside this, but that's true, but it gets even more centralized than that. The, you know, progressive pope that's getting praised for, you know, condemning the Iran war. And it's always condemning or statements or this or that. Yeah, the Catholic Church is still kind of an absolute theocratic monarchy in some ways.

You know, he could just say, hey, American bishops don't do that. Like, I'm overruling you. You do have to provide trans health care under whatever circumstances or, ideally all of them. He's chosen not to. And if you look at his history of transphobia before he became pope, it's not particularly surprising. Yeah. I think sort of like the very baseline kind of anti-clerical stance here is like, the moment your religion is able to dictate the behavior of people who are outside of it.

Yes. You have crossed the line into sort of like into this kind of clerical rule in ways that I think everyone should be like deeply opposed to. Yes. Like universally that should be regarded as. Yeah. Unacceptable and oppressive. Yeah.

And this is what we're dealing with here, which is that when there isn't this, you know, because like we talk a lot about sort of the separation of church and state, which has always been kind of a joke in the U.S. to like a broad extent, right? But like, you know, there are like other spheres that exist in our lives, right? There's, you know, like, there are economic spheres. There are health care spheres. There are like social spheres. And, you know, like the fact that a church can just be like, no, fuck you and cut off unbelievable numbers of trans people from their health care in a way that even the sort of like right-wing theocrats in office wouldn't be able to do.

Yes. Is something that has to be, that has to be opposed. Because fuck that. It does. And I will add while, you know, obviously, and we deal with some in the story of, you know, an example of pro-trains folks at a Catholic hospital, even a Catholic hospital overwhelmingly,

the staff were pro-trans. Yeah. But I do think, and polls, to the extent that they matter, you know, do show repeatedly that opinion, within Catholics themselves. And visually is pretty split on this. There are the substantial number who are pro trans rights and pro trans health care.

I also have to say, though, that at this point, I think there is a specific obligation among them to speak up and act against this loudly. Yeah. And, you know, I think the example of the doctor who, who helped people I interviewed, you know, get around the band to get top surgery. I think that's the minimum, honestly. Like, yeah. Like, okay, if you support trains rights.

start here because I think pressure from that quarter, as we've seen, hits even harder on some these institutions. You know, because while they claim, you know, be this above everything kind of hierarchy, we have seen worries about losing numbers of Catholics being involved in the church has driven their decisions before and more pressure will drive them again, potentially, you know? Like, I think it will. Like, what we've seen pretty clearly, just in my lifetime, is when these institutions are under attack, when folks go on the offensive against them, culturally, you know, socially with direct militant organizing like ActUp did, then we see some of our rights and liberation advance, shockingly quickly in some cases,

compared to where they were. Yeah. And when that is relaxed on, when they are given space to gather power and plan and go back on the attack, then things get a lot worse very quickly. Yeah. This can be fought. The first part of fighting it is to talk about it, to be vocal, about it, to be loud, and talk about how it is unacceptable.

I think, frankly, a lot of pressure can also be exerted on some of these gay inkworks. Yeah. Like, if they want any donations or any support, I don't think they should get a lot of donations supporting, I think there's better places to put it. But if they don't want to become pariahs and queer and trans communities, that needs to be the message. Like, you need to fight this. You need to fight this hard.

need to fight this now. Yeah. Because to do otherwise, I think it's just an act of unforgivable cowardice and treaties and in war time to kind of use a metaphor. Yeah. But, you know, we always end our pieces of TNN because I think, I mean, there was a joke about it I saw recently of like it is the sacred role of trans journalism to, you know, unnecessarily scare trans people beyond all measure.

Yeah. And I think people should take that to heart that among, like, trans folks, some trans journalism is getting that. And I've termed these pieces panic slop when they're, badly sourced, exaggerate something. Yeah, yeah. The day we're recording this, the episode came out. So I don't know if like some other unhinged thing has happened between now and

then and you're like, wow, why are you not mentioning like public max executions of trans people or some shit? Like, I don't know, I just like panics up. Like that's why because this is this is being recorded on the day in which our episode about this dropped. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like this panic slop shit is just like. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's become a real problem. in some quarters. And I, you know, I think kind of it's to be a nerd, like any reckoning with conflict and even like the warfare level of conflict is always like, you have to have accurate information. You need to know what actually is a threat, what is not. And I think communities under fire, which we're all part of, have to have that even more so, and especially now. So I tried to exaggerate the very real threats and the Catholic Church's ban is definitely one of them.

but also like people have fought this stuff. They fought this stuff even when the odds looked more dire. It can be fought again. Yeah, like during the age genocide. Exactly. They fought them and won. Yeah, exactly. And it can be fought against again and won,

but it has to be fought and has to be fought hard. Yeah. But I think the last thing I want to mention, this is something I say a lot with union organizing, but like the people in Act Up who went and fought are just you. Yeah. There's nothing like special about them. they were just people who were forced to act.

Yeah. And who took up the fight and did it. Yeah. And I think that actually kind of can transmute something that has been seen as a bad trend within trans communities. I don't think that always is. Of like, oh, trans communities like crucify their heroes too much. They pillory people too much.

In a lot of cases, if it's a public figure, like Simon McBride, that's done some really terrible stuff. They're acting out of, frankly, a just sense of grievance. But also, I think there should be a shift away from individual. figures on pedestals from looking to like a set of leaders to, you know, guide everyone else. I think we're strongest when the organizing is coming from everywhere. The fight is coming from everywhere. It's not singular figures. And honestly, I think pedestals are bad for everyone involved. But, you know, and that's exactly what you're saying. Like, people can start acting now.

They don't need to, you know, certainly I think it's good to pressure, large organizations and figures with power, partly because they think it gives people a sense of empowerment as well as occasionally fear works and they can see and, you know, something improves. a little bit or something worse is avoided, but also just for like, it's just us, y'all. You know, like, yeah, that's what's going to have to solve this.

And that is why we start, I don't know, I don't have a percentage on the episodes that we start with things falling apart, but also putting them back together again because we can and we can make it better. They're building something better entirely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

And on that note, if people want to support Trans News Network, they can find out how to do so at transnews.network. We are a worker-run nonprofit and kind of trying to set a model for trans media that's in-depth and hard-hitting and unrepentantly radical, but that also goes in-depth and investigates stuff and gives an accurate picture of what's going on,

the threats, but also real victories. Yeah. And the best reporting on us is going to be done by us. Yes. So you can help make that possible. we appreciate any support we do a stunning amount on a fairly shoe string budget yeah it's unreal I appreciate that compliment but yeah it's an awesome crew of people I am incredibly fortunate to work with all of them yeah and actually shout to my head to myelizine who did a great job of going through

this piece and also has done some incredible coverage but yeah everyone who works at tennin I'm I'm really fortunate to work with and you know this is trying to set kind of an alternative in trans journalism that is worker run and is under pantone. Hell yeah. You two can go to war with the bureaucrats and the theeocrats and the politicians who are trying to destroy your life. Indeed. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia. Or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. On the Serving Pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have a little best friend compatibility test. Okay. How long have we been best friends? This is the day we met.

As the League One volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind-the-scenes stories and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, Serving Pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Open your free Iheart radio app. Search serving pancakes and listen now. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. On the Ceno Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances.

The entire season two is now available to bench featuring powerful conversation with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcohol. I'm going to die. Listen to Sino's show on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Saturday, May 2nd, country's biggest stars will be in Austin, Texas. At our 26, IHard Country Festival presented by Capital One.

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