It Could Happen Here - The Possibility of a Digital Commons Ft. Andrew

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

Andrew walks us through a better future of the internet in the form of a digital commons.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new

Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day.

From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T. Connecting changes everything. your podcast. AT&T, connecting changes everything. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of it could happen here uh once again hosted by myself andrew and also joined with garrison is here as well and me mia i'm also here and uh of the things that i've been thinking about lately, because I've been reading a lot more fiction, a lot of things in the sort of sci-fi sphere, particularly some Octavia Butler, some Margaret Atwood. I recently read Oryx and Creek.

And I've just been thinking about a lot of these concepts that are presented in stories um in sci-fi um and what is more sci-fi than the idea of computers that sort of digital space and what has you know become of the digital world um as of, as you know, and really since its inception, as capitalism has sort of chopped it up and privatized it and sequestered it and monopolized it. I think it really goes against what the principles of the internet should be

in terms of how it is run, how it is structured, how it is organized, because the internet as a concept really brings together a variety of people, a variety of spaces and backgrounds and intersections. And I believe it should be a place of sharing, a place of collaboration, particularly since the sort of resources that might be limited in the physical world

are far more abundant in the digital world. I'm thinking in terms of like educational resources and otherwise. Of course, there are, you know, infrastructural limitations, but, there are, you know, infrastructural limitations, but on the cloud, you know, in cyberspace, and I cringe saying that

because it makes me feel like a boomer. You know, they have the ability to freely and easily copy and share and paste wherever and whenever, basically without many limitations. corporate feudalism where all these digital megacorporations, these social media giants basically have carved

up the internet into their own fiefdoms and dominated the discourse, dominated how we communicate with each other, how dominated how we communicate with each other, how we tend to communicate with each other, at least in the mainstream side of the internet, what has become the mainstream,

what most people think of when they think of the internet. But I'm not a big fan of that idea of the internet, that perception, that conception of the internet. In fact, as something that i have been thinking about and developing and discussing for the past couple months uh and researching for the past couple months i really think that among all the other things that i've discussed uh unnecessary components uh in developing the commons in creating and re-establishing the commons, I think digital commons will be just as important because the commons,

rather the enclosure of the commons is what really kicked off the establishment of capitalism. I believe the re-establishment of the commons will be required in that transition away from capitalism towards a more collective, more communal, more sustainable way of life. For those who are, I guess, just tuning in, this is perhaps your first I guess just tuning in this perhaps your first episode with me at least or perhaps you've never seen any videos on my channel I'll take a moment to you know explain what exactly the commons are the commons refer to the resources accessible to all members of a society the totality of the material riches of that part of the world of that world regarded as the inheritance of humanity as a whole something to be shared together the commons are something that are based on common pool resources or cprs

which is any natural or man-made system that is organized to benefit a group of people, but would provide diminished benefits to everyone if each person pursued their own self-interest. And of course, these resource systems, like I said, could be natural or man-made. They could be forests. Traditionally, there were things like forests and irrigation canals and fisheries and pastures and groundwater basins. But I think it can be expanded even further. I mean, things like energy infrastructure, you know, like windmills, wind turbines, or as I'm going to describe, different portions of the internet, different resource systems

within the internet. And of course, the internet as a whole, I believe all of those things can be brought under the commons. And of course, the commons, the theory of the commons, the history of the commons is its own lengthy discussion. Of course, you could read about it in Governing the Commons by Eleanor Ostrom, or you could read about it in Governing the Commons by Eleanor Ostrom, or you could listen to a sort of a condensed version of that in my video on my channel on the Commons as an institution. But when it comes to, you know, information and

communication technologies, when it comes to ICTs and sort of applying that commons idea to ICTs, I like to think about it in terms of these sort of digital communities bringing together people who share, you know, common goals to collaboratively build and share those resources through technology. So I would say that digital commons are and can be, because I think some of them already exist in some form. But they are basically these online creation communities where there's a free flow and free access to and free collaboration um you know the sharing of this non-exclusive digital information and the collective creation of like knowledge resources these resources of course being owned and used freely between or among the community and also available for use by third parties so instead of being exchanged as commodities you know these resources are used and reused and reused without uh artificial restrictions to sort of enforce an artificial scarcity um i just actually thought of a really funny example that i hadn't

initially um conceived of in my sort of guideline for this episode. I don't know if you're all familiar with Martin Scorsese's Goncharov. No. Okay, so in 1973, Martin Scorsese developed this film called Goncharhirav it's a historical epic um a sort of a post-war era mafia movie and it was directed by scorsese and it starred robert de niro and al pacino and gene hackman it had a sort of a deep homoeroticism blended with a sort of exploration of male aggression. It's a sort of a look at the relationship between Goncharov, who is a Russian mafia boss, and his partner slash rival slash old friend, Andre, who I believe is supposed to be

an Italian mafia boss. But the thing about Gonsharov, I mean, you can find posters about it. You can find fan art of it. You can find many, many, many fan fictions about it. But Gonsharov is not a real movie. It does not exist. Everything I described is entirely fake fake the litany of colorful side

characters that you know people have developed for this movie the hundreds of fan fictions the dozens of meta-analyses and pieces of fan art people have you know generated for this movie the movie itself does not exist the movie only exists in the um collective um co-creation of it that took place um over tumblr of all places essentially a couple of tumblr users basically came up with this idea of this lost Martin Scorsese film that everybody has seemingly forgotten and they would rave about it and they would come up with fake plot points and fake characters and before you know it you know it's sort of like this massive internet phenomenon this sort of inside joke internet inside joke. More and more people started building on top of it and respecting what came before.

And that sort of spirit of co-creation is what ended up creating this tale of Goncharov, this Goncharov fandom, this whole development of Goncharov as a character, of the side characters as fully developed characters. characters and it all started because you know one user said to another like oh don't you know the movie Gonsharov is only the greatest mafia movie ever made and that tagline the greatest mafia movie ever made would be built upon uh with further photoshops and embellishments and built upon uh with further photoshops and embellishments and developments and um there's now like a really comprehensive document of Gontra of law um things are added in jest

things are added in complete seriousness but it's just a thing that exists it's a thing that I believe um it's just one manifestation of many of what the internet has the capacity to produce when online creation communities are allowed to operate freely and develop their own sort of common creative resources. I think other examples of, I guess, the seeds of what i'm talking about can be seen in um i guess like role play um servers and role play communities role play message boards i think some fandoms also have some of the seeds of what i'm talking about of course the minecraft community with everything they've created modern communities across different games, they all sort of are manifestations of, you know,

human desire to create and human desire to share without, you know, the artificial restrictions and boundaries of mainstream capitalist imagination. I think another manifestation of the digital commons, in a sense, can be found in resources like Zee Library

and a few others that I'm afraid of naming in case they get taken down as well. Yeah. And I mean, that's really the sad part of what Zee is lost i mean i haven't really been feeling that loss because i am aware of the alternatives um but it's a loss

nonetheless because of the ways the library is formatted it was a bit more accessible to a lot of people a lot of people aware of it and stuff um but z library and i'm glad that it's called a library, it's called Z Library. It's just one manifestation of the roots of the library as a concept and how it can manifest in the digital space. How the commons through the conception of the library can manifest in a digital space, how the commons through the, I guess, the conception of the library can manifest in a digital space. I mean, even mainstream ones, we have stuff like archive.org, and I know archive.org is trying to launch something to host a whole bunch of scientific journals and other articles that are harder to access as well. But I mean, they already host, you know,

a quite impressive plethora of copyrighted books. Me and Robert have gotten into arguments on twitter.com with many an author who is mad about their book being on archive.org. So that is, you know, there is many resources if you know where to look, but sadly,

some are no longer with us and people have been punished by the state for trying to provide open access to information. Yeah. And I mean, who controls information, right?

Well, however the scene goes. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America gasoline counters with shape-shifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time.

Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season

digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists

to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong though, I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough.

So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean.

He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian.

Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, the Elian Gonzalez story as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think another, as you mentioned, Archive.org, I think another example

of that sort of collaborative information sharing can be seen in, of course, Wikipedia, you know. Yeah, yeah. As personal computers and the internet became more and more accessible, the lower the barriers of expression and stuff, this internet culture as it was initially born, it was one with the aim of, you know, collaboratively creating cultural content developing and generating universal access to knowledge Wikipedia is just one example of course different wikis plural but of course

no longer called wikis I think it's called fandom or something now yes unfortunately fandom bought a whole bunch of different wiki sites that were independently operated over the course of the past 20 years and then they kind of consolidated under the the big fandom company yeah and now like half of them are unusable because of ads and stuff yeah yeah it is it is it's it's pretty rough to scroll a fandom site. It's not the easiest thing.

But I will say, as a youth with few regulations and my access to the internet, it was actually quite nice to be able to go on to fandom. I was around when it was still Wiki. But going like Marvel Wiki or going DC Wiki and read up on all the different characters i was into at the time oh yeah absolutely you know i used to go on like power listing wiki and like come up with characters you know based on certain superpowers

um and i also created my own wiki for my own like made up uh sort of world-building project. And just the fact that a resource was available, that the tools were free to access and that easy to understand as well. And of course, there were always tutorials and stuff available if you didn't know how to function and how to do certain things. Just that accessibility and freedom is something that I think still exists in some sense, despite this company buying out everything. And I appreciate the fact that unlike that company,

Wikipedia is in the main, the OG Wikipedia continues to maintain their steadfast anti-ad standing and continues to run on, I guess, crowdsourced donations. Just today, as of the day that we're uh recording uh peep a whole a whole bunch of uh the the right-wingers that have coalesced around uh musk after his purchase of twitter have gotten mad at wikipedia uh for not for they've they've gotten mad that wikipedia wasn't was wasn't reposting their fake twitter files drama thing um as glowingly as some of them might like and they're complaining about wikipedia's left-wing bias and a whole bunch of these musk fanboys are talking about being like hey elon mus Musk should buy Wikipedia

and fix Wikipedia's left-wing bias. And there's this one guy who was like, I wonder how much Wikipedia would cost to buy at Elon Musk. And then the founder of Wikipedia is like, absolutely not. This is not for sale. We are not letting Elon Musk buy Wikipedia.

Yeah, I mean, if conservatives really want a platform that badly, there's always conservativepedia, or whatever it's called. There's always uncyclopedia if they want to get really wacky. But yeah, Wikipedia is just going to continue being Wikipedia, thankfully. I appreciate the rabbit holes it has led me through. I appreciate the Wikipedia games that I've been able to play.

You know, like you have to go from one page to another, you know, that kind of degrees of pages, how you link two different, completely different topics. But yeah, zero advertising, accessible to all, completely different topics. But yeah, zero advertising, accessible to all, many different languages. Of course, you know, it's not completely flawless. There are certain very contentious articles, of course.

There always be attempts to hijack those pages for the purpose of propaganda. Of course, every article has its bias. But by and large, because of the collaborative nature of the project, there have been ways to mitigate bad actors and respond to those sorts of attempts at corruption and co-optation. So it goes to show that even something as, I would say, you know, even something as, I would say,

decentrally organized as Wikipedia is still able to regulate itself collaboratively. Yeah, I think around this time last year, here on the show, we interviewed somebody from Wikimedia, specifically talking about how the, talking about the regional differences of the Wikipedias that are in different countries and in different regions, how that impacts access to information and how people in their own communities can work towards providing a fuller, better picture of the types of information that people are getting.

And the great part about it is that it really does put the power into anyone's hands it's not it's it's not gatekept the same way a lot of other information is yeah yeah that's the beauty of it really welcome i'm danny thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season

digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse

and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand

what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba.

He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez.

At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story,

as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think another prominent case of information sharing rather, file sharing

and just sort of that peer-to-peer architecture can be found in really the pirating community, quote-unquote.

You know, those facilities access and the exchange of cultural products that might otherwise be lost, you know, as we're seeing with a lot of these shows being axed

and people who really worked hard on certain projects and stuff, these companies with their tax dodging schemes and whatever, able to basically sweep all that aside. And so the fact that we are able to preserve, and of course in films and TV shows being taken down by certain streaming services and not even being able to be found easily physically, having these files and stuff just accessible online,

shared between pairs, it's really great to see. And it really allows for the preservation of things that might otherwise be lost. And of course, there's also, as another example of a sort of digital commons, the idea of open source or the free software movement,

which is a social movement aimed at attaining and guaranteeing certain freedoms for software users you know to run the software to study software to modify the software and to share copies of that software whether modified or not um the philosophy of this free software movement is really this idea that computer use should not lead to people being prevented from cooperating with others. In fact, it should be the opposite. It should be allowing people to cooperate with each other. So things like, you know, rejecting restrictions on software,

promoting free software and liberating people who use technology, use computers. That's really what the free software movement is trying to do. One of the founders of the movement, a guy named Stolman, he had said that the idea of the free software movement is that by allowing free access to software, it promotes rather than hinders the progression of technology because it means that much of the wasteful duplication of system programming effort can be avoided.

That effort could instead go into advancing different projects. So the open source and free software movement, whatever you want to call it, although I know that some people make a distinction um it is i would believe uh i would think a manifestation of digital commons people are able to self-organize um fully associate and really just allowing people to you know get their hands on some software to create to run to redistribute to get their hands on some software, to create, to run, to redistribute, to change their software, to pick apart and learn from certain code.

I really just allow people to continue to create and share. And the sort of culture that open source and free software creates is one of, you know, courtesy. It's one of collaboration, of helping one another to contribute to a greater whole, to sort of regulate each other's monitor activity that might jeopardize the project.

And we see the benefits of that. You know, a lot of the most recognizable high-traffic open software projects are stable, they're secure, and they're very thoroughly understood by the people who collaborate to create them. Compared to a lot of the more closed and proprietary projects that are not as accessible, not as open to scrutiny and study. not as open to scrutiny and study. So it is, I think, in a sense, a form of anarchy of people governing themselves and cooperating to create a whole greater than any individual could create alone. And speaking of people, I guess,

coming together and communicating and collaborating, it's this sense that, I guess guess people have been discussing a lot lately of the digital public square and Twitter teams is usually at the center of that conversation. This idea that, Oh, we have this space that, you know, that shouldn't be privatized. It shouldn't, that should be freely accessed so that everyone can communicate without restriction and you have the free speech people within that. I honestly question the value of Twitter

pretty much every day. Obviously, some good has come out of it. And really other sort of quote-unquote digital public squares, like any sort of mainstream social media, some good, you know, comes out of them. You know, you meet people, you're able to work on projects, able to meet like-minded folks. All that is good.

Also, a lot of, you know, terrible, terrible things have come out to these platforms and continue to every single day. And so it's a mixed bag, but I think any sort of digital commons project will need a space. And how that space is conceived would, of course, need to be unmoored from, you know,

capitalist imagination, that the whole, you the whole attention economy, rage economy that aims to keep us divided and butted heads. But I do think there will need to be a space for communication across boundaries, across regions around the world easily. Last thing I really wanted to touch on on this topic

is really the sort of the overlap between the idea of digital commons and degrowth. So, you know, both sort of question that sort of mainstream idea of consumption, digital commons, you know, they promote this idea of someone who both consumes and produces, consumes value in the digital space, but also adds to that value. That doesn't commodify the resources available

in the digital space, but rather makes it accessible and adds to it, contributes to it. And that sort of idea of open access is really something that Degrowth also tries to emphasize. You know, even though we're trying to scale within planetary limits, we still want, you know, a good life for all. We still want people to be able to collaborate and create

and in fact be more free to do so without limitations that the growth-oriented capitalist economy imposes on us. The idea, of course, digital commons also brings the means of production in the digital sphere under the control of the communities who use it, who use that resource, who use that service, in complete contrast to the capitalist aim of keeping them privately held and aiming to serve profit. Digital commons and degrowth both emphasize access to information, to knowledge, to resources, as part of our human heritage, as part of our human right, the commons should be something that is openly available

rather than restricted, commodified, privatized. Of course, unlike traditional commons, digital commons are not easily exhaustible, not really exhaustible. They're not subject to many of the limitations that physical commons would have. But at the same time, you know, they depend on a certain infrastructure,

an infrastructure that relies on, you know, energy, and that energy has to come from somewhere. Being able to access the internet requires certain tools, certain technologies, computers, phones, whatever. And the resources required to create those technologies has to come from somewhere. The cables in the oceans, the satellites in space, you know, the electricity for the computers,

the materials for the electricity for the computers, the materials for the phones and the computers, all of those things consume and contribute to the exhaustion of environmental resources. And so balancing that and being cognizant of environmental impact will still have to be a central component in any development of the digital commons. any development of the digital commons. At the end of the day, I believe that humans are sort of pre-programmed to create and to collaborate with each other. And I think digital commons are one way in which we can do that.

I really appreciated the way that different writers and thinkers on the subject have sort of explored those ideas. Of course, I drew a bit from one particular author, Mayo Foster, Morel, and their exploration of the idea. But there's a lot available uh if you're interested in covering the topic and what to happen of course same goes for um the commons in general there are a lot of different resources out there um eleanor ostrom's work is a great place to start and i really think it's important that we do um get these conversations rolling. In the mainstream. In the background. In every corner.

In every space. Because we stand to benefit a lot from it. And we honestly really need it. In a time like this. That's it from me. For this episode. You can follow me on YouTube. At Androism. On Twitter. So that's it from me for this episode. You can follow me on YouTube at Andrew Azam, on Twitter at underscore St. True,

and on Patreon, you can support me if you'd like, at patreon.com slash St. True. Yeah, and you can find It Could Happen Here on Twitter and Instagram. Apparently, we have a, the cool zone is a TikTok, a thing that I learned. Do we officially have one? I don't know. I was told that we did.

Who knows? We may or may not have a TikTok. You'll never know. By early January, we definitely will, because we have something special planned. But yes, Twitter, at least Twitter and Instagram at HappenHerePod and Cool Zone Media. Still on, we're, despite the digital town square collapsing, we are holding out in the

dystopian ruins of Twitter. So yeah, anyway. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbrass.

Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of rife. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jacqueline Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. Black Lit is for the page turners,

for those who listen to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T, connecting changes everything. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko.

It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.