It Could Happen Here - The State of the UPS Union Negotiations

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

Mia is once again joined by Rose and Oliver, two rank and file UPS workers, to talk about the insufficiency of the proposed UPS contract, the No vote, and how a militant union should function.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And once again, the thing maybe not happening is the strike at UPS. Yeah, so stuff has happened since we last recorded. And also there was the thing that happened in the middle of the recording, which was the announcement of the tentative agreement. And there was the thing that happened in the middle of the recording, which was the announcement of the tentative agreement. And so to talk more about what's been happening since and what's sort of in this deal, because we now know more details about it, is once again, Reese Smith and Oliver Rose, who are two rank and file UPS Teamsters. And once again, they do not represent the union or speaking as individuals, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, but welcome back. Yeah, good to be back. Yeah, thanks for having us on again. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm happy to talk to you. All right, so last time we found out in the middle of recording that there is a deal struck. And I guess I wanted to start by talking a bit about what's been happening since then and what sort of organizing has been

happening, what the sort of union bureaucracy has been doing. Yeah. Well, it's been kind of crazy. Basically, we had that highlight reel that we all got. And then it was a bit before we got the actual contract, at least like a few days. And since then, you know, your union bureaucracy has been promoting these contract Q&A sessions and stuff like that. And they had three of them last Sunday and one of them this Monday. And voting has opened up. Yeah, it's been a bit crazy feeling, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, it's been wild. Yeah, and of course, you know, while we're recording, you know, we get the tentative agreement drop. And, you know, it's framed as, you know, this big historic, you know, this game changer.

So, you know, of course, for for the first day we just had what was in the press release um even some of that language was a little bit confusing wasn't until uh team series for a democratic union also had their own like press release which clarified some language and then you know we're kind of just like okay we'll get you know we're told we'll be getting uh the kind of agreement language next week and a chance to debrief with the local. But really, I think it was the following day, the actual language comes out.

And some of the things where there's a promise with all the general wage increases going on top of those market rate adjustments we're speaking about, which are basically wages that are that ups can you know add or even remove that's not actually tied to the contract wages and you know so one of the things was yeah getting those raises on top but there was no contract language you know in there which definitely caused definitely caused a lot of confusion and concern among rank and file members. And it actually took one of the locals having a no endorsement before we even saw this memorandum of understanding between the company and the IBT guaranteeing this was going to happen, uh, you know, that we would be getting

those raises on top was just kind of one of those things where, you know, there was this kind of really vague language that was used. And I think definitely caused, you know, people to not really fully understand, you know, what was going on, especially, I think it was about 75% of part-timers currently have a market rate adjustment. That's kind of a very big portion of the workforce. Yeah, I'm going to be honest. It was kind of a real calm shit show from union leadership releasing the information in the way they did. It absolutely led to a lot of misunderstandings about what was in the contract, which kind of spread like wildfire.

And the union response to what I think is a lot of just genuine misunderstanding is to just label it all as misinformation from people that have, you know, their own agendas, right? And you can't, you can't like trust those people. You can only trust what's coming from the union. And yeah, that definitely didn't inspire trust from the people that were leaning no. Because in between a lot of these, like, and there is definitely was some misunderstanding about what was initially in the contract. But there is also a genuine critique about certain things that are in the contract, right? And so instead of like substantively like looking at these genuine critiques, we're all forced in the situation of sorting out what is quote unquote misinformation or, you know, more accurately, people not understanding legalese and also a bad rollout of information versus, OK, but what is in the contract that really needs improvement? And instead of like substantively getting into the latter, it's just been a pure focus on the former. And yeah, it's been kind of tense.

It seems like, you know, it seems like there's a real mix. It's real kind of even-even how rank and file members are responding to this contract you know some have kind of bought in full sale that this is a historic contract um and others you know you know such as myself like you know there's still things in this contract that to me are unacceptable um and it's going to be interesting to see where it goes. Yeah. I mean, you know, I kind of feel like it's hard to get a gauge of where everyone's at. And of course I only have the, you know, kind of my local experience in my specific shift. You know, definitely. Yeah. I haven't, I haven't come across, you know, someone I work with yet, you know, who's totally just like, yeah, this is super historic. This is, you know, i work with yet you know who's totally just like yeah this is super historic this is you know game changing uh you know as they were saying or the union was saying um a lot of

people you know especially long timers like yeah this is a really good contract with you know the best i've seen uh you know in my days here and then there's you know there's been a few other people were like yeah i'm gonna vote yes but it really doesn't really seem, you know, there's been a few other people who are like, yeah, I'm going to vote yes, but really doesn't really seem like, you know, it's matching, you know, the framing of, you know, this historic contract. And then also know there's, yeah, I mean, other people who are just kind of like, no, this seems, I mean, honestly, kind of like too little too late. Like the gains aren't quite there. Yeah, it's, there Yeah, there's raises. They're also kind of done in a weird way where they're more or less like kind of front loaded towards the first and last year. And everything in the middle is a lot lower to the point actually where, and it gets confusing because everyone's kind of at a different rate with those market rate adjustments.

it gets confusing because everyone's kind of at a different rate with those market rate adjustments. You know, the more you're making from, you know, that supplemental pay, the worse this is going to keep with inflation to the point where it's kind of, you're only actually going to be just above inflation towards the end of the contract. Especially one of the, definitely one of the weaker things in the contract is all new hires or current people without seniority are going to be on a different tier. And this is for the part-timer inside warehouse positions. of 21 an hour to start, and that goes up to 25.75 an hour versus those new hires or no seniority employees are going to be at 21 with a progression to 23. So 50 cent raises. And of course, once tack on the average, a little bit over 3% inflation. You can kind of quickly see

it's those new members who are getting the worst part of the deal. Yeah, and that comes to, I think, another thing that is like, I don't know. So when this was all first happening, and I've seen this a lot from people talking about this,

is people talking about this as a contract that ends the tier systems, and that just doesn't seem to be true at all yeah and so one of the things so there's the and i believe we spoke to this last time but the 224 is what it's called where it's a combo driver and inside warehouse position and most of the time you know they were just more or less practically uh full-time drivers except for a few times where, you know, especially like earlier this year, they tried to transition them to mostly like inside full-time. But so the thing is, yeah, those will all get, you know, converted to the package car drivers with that, I believe, with that rate or at least very similar. with that, I believe with that rate, or at least very similar.

Yeah. Yeah. So we did get rid of the, the 22 fours. Um, and that was the big promise, you know, going into this contract fight. Uh, but yeah, no, there are definitely still remaining, um, tiers within UPS. You know, there's this new one that's been created, which is the, you know, the tier between the what they call the unborn. That's how they refer to people that have not yet been hired by UPS that have like stipulations in the contract. Right. Yeah. They call them the unborn. It's kind of funny. And, you know, their whole thing is that they just have a completely different wage progression than the rest of us do. a completely different wage progression than the rest of us do. But in addition to that tier, which was introduced, you know, there are tiers elsewhere. Sometimes it's a tier between the hubs,

like all of the hubs are making different MRAs and stuff like that. But additionally, there are some hubs that don't have a daily guarantee of hours like regular hubs do, daily guarantee of hours like regular hubs do, like, for instance, air hubs, right? So like, that's another, basically another tier, because it's, you know, people doing the same work, but not guaranteed the same things. And yeah, yeah. So there's definitely tears remaining in this contract for sure. And it's really unfortunate to see that the one existing didn't get addressed4 less than full-time, which was, I think, $12 an hour back in 82 versus $8 an hour for the part-timers. So that's continued across all these decades. And so now with the current contract, provided you're getting paid the contract minimums, yeah, you're looking at full-time inside warehouse,

their top rate going to $36 an hour, I believe. And then you're going to have part-timers who have seniority just below 26 an hour, I believe. And then you're going to have part-timers who have seniority just below 26 an hour. And then you're going to have those people who weren't quite in the door yet at 23. And of course, it's doing more or less the same work inside. You're doing your loading, unloading, sorting, the other you know various positions there and of course you know one of the things i've seen you know particularly online i haven't heard this on the shop floor but it's just like oh well you know they're working more so of course

they're going to get paid more but it's like okay well yeah they have more hours so they would get more pay but that doesn't mean that they should be at a higher hourly rate yeah plus you know there's going to be other things too like the pension accrual and you know vacation time where you're working more you're going to get more of that too that's kind of has its own reward uh there's really no reason to have you know like a ten dollar discrepancy for that type of work performed. Also, I was doing some quick math in the background and the, the, the, the 1982, uh, wage is like $36 an hour and, uh, with, with, uh, inflation now. So that's great. That's fun yeah I don't know I think it's um when I think about you know uh this union being touted as historic I like actually think about like what are the actual historic wins of the labor movement

and you know I'm thinking about like you know the right to a five-day work week meanwhile this historic contract you, it ended six-day punches, but that's not a new historical thing. That was something we lost and then regained with this contract. So it's, you know, in my mind, it's not really breaking any barriers or like, you know, blowing anyone's minds, you know, especially when we have Sean Fain of the UAWD, who is talking about, you know, one of their demands is a 32 hour work week, right? Like, he's, he's advocating that every worker needs a 40% increase in pay because the CEO got a 40% increase in pay. And yeah, it's just, yeah, our contract just contract just you know it isn't at that level by any means

when you use that word historic you know like i think there could be times where you can you know call something historic before it stands the test of time but this is kind of like okay this is kind of i feel like the contract you know you would expect a union to bargain uh maybe it's i mean partly it's historic because there just really hasn't been really any gains and so it's kind of like okay you got us wage increases uh isn't that kind of just like what you should be doing yeah well i mean i this is this has been there's been like this has been like the there's been a bunch of unions in the last like maybe like eight months who have like settled and been like we've gotten historic raises and it's like i don't know it's the the thing that seems

actually historic about it is essentially averting and like averting this massive strike wave yeah one of the things i wanted to add was um you know especially with those combo positions uh you know ending that tier that that was something that was introduced in the previous contract which uh rank and file members voted down it was a no vote but it was just because of this, you know, kind of obscure, you know, rule in the constitution where it's just like, Oh, 50% of people don't vote. Then it requires a two thirds, you know, no vote. So, you know, that was just completely, you know, over,

overruled by the union like yeah we're gonna do this anyways so kind of you know it's good that we righted that wrong um you know it's good to reduce a tier of course i'm not gonna knock that um but just kind of one of those things where it's like yeah but membership already didn't want that or at least yeah it's like you guys did you guys introduced this in the first place like come on yeah yeah it's also worth noting that um the 22-4 position you know it wasn't working for our members but it also wasn't working for the company either they were having significant trouble trying to uh fill all the shifts that were were needed and required by the position and to the point that workers needed and required by the position.

And to the point that workers ended up kind of being slotted into one or the other with like really bad schedules. And it wasn't it wasn't working for either is the thing. So it is it's great that we got rid of it. But it seems like it was somewhat of an easy thing to win. It made mutual sense, right? And yeah, yeah, it's just, there were, you know, there were bigger, there could have been bigger fights

over other things in this contract that weren't pursued, right? So. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing from everything that I've seen from it seems like it seems like the goal of this contract is to get a contract that's like exactly good enough to get like 51% of the vote in a contract to avoid UPS having to like

actually deal with a contract that a strike would produce mm-hmm oh yeah oh yeah yeah it's kind of the I mean whether i mean probably intentional where it's just like you know it's like just good enough you know to maybe warrant like a yes vote and especially i mean in context of you know the last however many contracts but it's kind of one of those things where it's like okay by comparison it's good but again you

know i don't think it quite goes far enough um either on the wage side uh you know on the on the wages or you know especially one of the issues um that i've been focused on a lot is the heat protections yeah can we can we talk about well specifically the heat protections but then also kind of talk a bit about what's what is in the contract and what isn't in the contract that should be? Oh, yeah. We can start with the heat production stuff. Yeah, so one of the things, so they'll be rolling out air conditioners in the all trucks, package cars purchased I believe after August of next year

and they'll be kind of distributing them by zones and current ones will be retrofitted with heat shields and vents I'm not quite sure how effective that'll be one of the things for the inside people,

you know, is there, you know, there'll be installing, you know, tens of thousands of more fans, which, you know, I'm not going to lie, that will feel really nice because those trailers just get so hot and stuffy. There's no airflow. Especially like if it's been sitting for a while,

you open the door, it's just like a blast of heat. But the problem with fans is they're only so effective. Particularly once it reaches 95 degrees. They don't do anything. And so, you know, there's a lot of places where it'll probably feel nice, and it might help to some degree. But you know, especially like right now in, you know know like the southwest and the south uh where you've just had these you know 110 plus degree days you know for like over a month like that's not going to do really do much um especially if you're anywhere depending on if you've got dry heat or higher humidity, and the latter fans can sometimes make it worse. I'm also worried it's going to kind of be like this kind of like a comparison to a security theater, but more like safety theater where

it's this appearance of doing something to say like look we're doing this thing it's going to keep you safe but whether that's you know actually true or not well I mean we'll kind of find out but definitely I'm pretty worried about you know what's going to happen especially in the next five years we already have i mean i think it was the who was it it was the world meteorological organization you know now has a their researchers have like a 98 certainty that we're gonna um reach a high mark for global warming before 2027 so you know and i'm pretty sure last july was already the the hottest um month on record globally and it's something i believe there's and i think in that report it was like a 66 chance of passing that 1.5 degrees celsius warming global warming between now and 2027

so it's kind of one of those things where, you know, I don't think we necessarily have five years to wait to, you know, address this contract language and add further protections, especially we got other unions like the International Longshore and Warehouse Union. They had an article last talking about their heat protections, which have things like stewards that are equipped with heat monitoring equipment versus the current contract language for us would be,

they can just use like the OSHA app or, you know, like weather service to check, you know, like a weather station versus like the actual specific conditions you're working in. Yeah. Yeah. That seems like there'd be a huge, it seems like there's a huge discrepancy there versus like the actual specific conditions you're working in yeah yeah that seems like there'd be a huge it seems like there's a huge discrepancy there because the like the indoor temperatures and temperatures in these trailers are way hotter than like the reported conditions yeah and it can be like 5 10 degrees hotter at least i bought a little uh thermometer

and uh high hydrometer hygrometer something, something like that, whatever measures humidity. Because that's kind of how, because there are states with heat protections. There's like seven of them. A lot of times they're using the heat index when you're factoring in the temperature and humidity to get the feels like temperature. And yeah, with the ILWU, you know, they're also getting rest breaks as part of their contract language, which I believe two or three states have those of the seven total that actually have heat protections that kind of match or even kind of exceed partly um what some of the states have you know they're kind of saying this isn't enough for the current extreme heat we're facing yeah and i mean and you know we've talked about this on the show before

but like whatever heat protections get negotiated in a contract like the company is going to basically the instant negotiations are over is going to figure out what the well a what the cheapest possible way to do this is with the shittiest equipment and then be like try to they're going to immediately try to figure out like how you know like how how to actually subvert it and you know this is this is the thing we've seen all over the world even in places that have sort of national heat protection laws is that you know, this is this is the thing we've seen all over the world, even in places that have sort of national heat protection laws, is that, you know, even even if you have a law or even if you have a thing in the contract, even if you have something in your contract, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be enforced. And that requires a you know, it requires like a pretty significant degree of organization to make sure it stays enforced. And that's you know, that that's true, both of stuff that's in contract and stuff that's like legally required and so like if if if if the thing that they're nominally required to do

is still insufficient it's going to end up being way worse than that on the ground yeah we're seeing that with our i mean existing heat protections at the state level where they're you know falling short and especially you know there's either you know there's kind of loopholes or even just kind of like murky language that makes it really hard to enforce in some cases i do not have a good transition but uh it's hot uh yeah here here are some ads that are i't know, hopefully not making the climate worse. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. And we're back. So outside of the concerns around heat, what else has been going? What else is in the contract that there's been sort of dispute over? So if you look online and this is an instance of not really quite understanding what's in the contract, but if you go online, a lot of people think that there are pension freezes in the contract. But if you go online, a lot of people think that there are pension freezes in the contract. And once again, I think we can contribute this misunderstanding to a comms strategy failure as well as a lack of open comms the pension contribution rate has decreased but money is still going in to the pension fund uh not as much as it was is my understanding the way the union broke it down

for me was um like there's a dollar and 25 cents of that dollar is going to health care. 25 cents of that dollar is going to the pension and then 50 cents of it is going to wages. And I'm going to be honest with you. I don't super understand all this money stuff either. But we yeah, they showed us a thing where like the contributions are going to keep happening. Other things that have been in the kind of in the like what we've all what people have been thinking about is the full time jobs, which I know I we talked a lot about on the last one. And yeah, that's it. I think we we were using the 7500 for newly created jobs, but apparently the contract also specifically requires them to actually fill the 22,000 some full-time jobs that exist that they just have not been

filling. But even with that additional 22,000, that's still roughly 30,000 full-time jobs. That is for the full-time work for the whole workforce of 340,000 people. And something I learned is that full-time drivers can bid into those positions and get them because they will likely have the seniority to do so because that's how we determine how to fill jobs. It's by seniority. How long have you been there? And usually, I think that makes sense. It's by seniority. You know, how long have you been there? And usually, you know, I think that makes sense.

But, you know, that really just contributes to the long, long wait of part-timers trying to get full-time work, right? And yeah, like the thing like kind of related to that, you know, we have these like if you have a market rate adjustment and you get your 275, for me, that's going to be 26.75 an hour. And that looks great until you remember that we are part-time. It is, like, we are supposed to work half a work week. I work less than because of the hub that I am at, which is not great. But, you know, we need the hours and there's not the there isn't enough jobs and that's stipulated by this contract i think that there probably could be a lot more jobs yeah i want to see something about that specifically too which is that like when when like you random listener who does not work at ups whenever you see someone like talking about a wage number and it's for part-timers like

if you want to try to figure out can this person survive you need to divide that number by two at like at the very least divided by two possibly divided by more because again like you don't there you know no one's like if you're a part-timer like obviously yeah you're not you're not getting the hours that you know that that that you that you would normally you know if you you can't just immediately convert that to what would the salary be if you worked if you got like 40 hours a week or whatever like you can't do that i've seen a lot i've seen this a lot a lot like on the internet i've seen pundits talking about it like this and it's just like a incomprehensible misunderstanding of the act of like how how this stuff actually works for you

to be going like oh look at all this money that people are making assuming that like you know and then using calculations that are based on like someone working full-time which is most of the workforce like a significant significant majority of the workforce is not is not working full-time and will not be even after this contract yes yeah. Yeah. It's estimated there are 60% of the workforce is part-timers. So yeah, no, that is a huge issue. A lot of people also, like when this is brought up, a lot of people like to then say, well, get a second job. But our jobs aren't flexible. First of all, fuck having a second job. I am kind of staunchly opposed to the entire concept. But even if I wasn't, this job is not flexible enough to account for a second job.

Not unless you never want to sleep and your second job is when you should be, like, sleeping. Because, you know, we have our start times. Those are given to us a week in advance. But we don't know when our end times are because the end times are when we run out of packages. So, you know, some days, you know, like in my hub, it's always just going to be the two hours. But like in other hubs, you could be there, you know, you could be trying to get your three and a half hour daily guarantee, like employing that when they're trying to send you home. Or you could be there six, seven hours. And, you know, how is another employer supposed to operate with that? You know, you call in like three times saying like, oh, I can't actually leave my first job. You're not going to have that second job much longer.

actually leave my first job, you're not going to have that second job much longer. So yeah, in addition to the lack of full-time jobs, the way this job is makes a second one impossible. So a lot of our part-timers really are relying on that part-time wage to get them through and picking up doubles when they can, which means you kind of end up having a 10 hour day because there's like about a two hour, uh, like space of time in between the shifts. So yeah, yeah, it's, uh, yeah, those are, those are some, some of the big issues. So, yeah, that's one of my worries, you know, if I, about, you know, if I want to go full time or not is, you know, can be at least in the hub I work at. Um, I would say usually I I'm getting like 24 hours a week. So, you know, if I'm going full time, what double that, cause now I'm working two shifts, but also, you know, got to have that like hour or two of wait time between shifts. So, you know, it's just a lot of time to be

spending at work. Um, especially unpaid time at work. That is the worst. It's not quite a long enough stretch to go home, or at least you have a decent commute to work. And another thing that came to my mind a little earlier was that, and it sounds like, at least talking with new hires, that this is still continuing, which is kind of this really deceptive hiring practice where the hours are posted. When I got the job, it was posted as part-time. I forget, it was something like, I don't know, nine to four.

But I had that schedule for five days a week, seven- shifts, 35 hours a week times by the 26 starting pay. I was like, oh, perfect. I'll be making like somewhere like mid $40,000. That's livable, at least for my specific circumstances. But then, of course, get there and we get two days notice for start time. It's posted on our either um you know end of the week so don't know exactly when i'm working you know until right before uh the next week and you know at least during orientation someone asked oh like what's actually the end time it's just like oh well when the last package is loaded now of course if you know what when the next shift, you can kind of get

a better idea of when you'll actually be out of there. So it's just kind of, you know, it's this claimed flexibility, but it's very difficult, you know, to actually work a second job or even, you know, they offer tuition reimbursement and a number of students who have had, you know, a hard time actually like, you know, getting the time off to attend their classes and i also second anywhere that's part-time work that offers tuition reimbursement you know i would say there's an expected expectation that okay well you're going to school and you're working part-time you would think the wages then should at least you know provide enough for rent, food, gas, textbooks, all that. Yeah. To piggyback off of what Oliver just said regarding, you know, like this is a wage that is

good for, you know, their situation when they were assuming it was at the, you know, 35 hours a week. You know, another thing to think about is a lot of these part-timers, you know, they have families, they have significant others that they're caring for. Like, you know, a lot of people look at this wage and one, make the faulty assumption that you talked about earlier by multiplying it by 40 to get the 40. And then they assume that's for just that one person. And like, there are part-timers of every age, right? And they all have their own, their own families and stuff like that, that they are expected to care for as well. So like, when you look at all of this and the, you know, the rate of inflation and the way the economy is, and you take all of these things into account, like the gains that are provided for in this contract is not enough when you consider

the whole of everyone who works at ups you know it's leaving behind families right like yeah it's it's wild yeah and i think another thing that isn't talked about that much in terms of this is like the actual physical effect on your body of doing this kind of work because this is like i don't know this kind of work is intense enough that i mean there's there's there's very real risk of injury and there's also i mean just like know, over the course of time, doing this kind of shit is going to like fuck up your body. And, you know, like part part of the sort of bargain of like like part part of the bargain of this work is that you're getting, you know, it's in some ways like. It's in some ways like you could think about it like if you're a mid-level football player like you're gonna get your fucking brain destroyed by just repeated head trauma right and you know so so there's only a limited amount of time your body can physically handle this and it's like yeah okay

it looks like you're getting a lot of money in a very short amount of time but you have to you know you have to live with the sort of physical consequences of what happened of what happened to you on that job getting the money so that money also like not just it doesn't just have to get you through like now right like it also it has to also essentially be compensation to the physical damage that you're doing to your body by doing this shit and you know i i think i think it i think like these wages look even worse when you look at like you know when you think of it in terms of you you know, in, in, in like, in like, not even, not just in terms of immediate rent, but like in, in the really long term of having to, you know,

live with the sort of physical damage that you take from doing this stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. And that's fine. I just had a coworker talking about that today, actually. And cause that's, I mean, there are a lot of like college age kids you know the early 20s uh they i've at least from you know my experience you've noticed kind of usually they're kind of like the quick turnover i feel like a lot of people are staying more like their you know 30s 40s you know we have people older older than that too um on my line i think part of that's just like kind of we understand the uh

importance of i mean a gold tier uh health insurance plan and a pension but you know of course with uh you know being older uh it's gonna you know have even more of an effect on the body and yeah i know i've heard people talking about this where it's just like oh well it's just part-time or it's you know entry level you know quote unquote uh you don't need a degree for this so like why do you think you should be paid more it's like well it's it's brutal i mean we get a 10 minute break we're working up to six hours that is it why they don't have to do a lunch break i don't't know. It seems like UPS just always gets their way. And that's, you know, like state, local, federal law.

They don't care. Even this last contract, there's so many violations. Of course, you know, we got to, whether, you know, this is yes or no, whatever the next contract is, you know, that's going to be a big part of the fight is just holding them accountable and to the terms. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like I, you know, I've had co-workers out on, you know, workers comp for like you know doing physical therapy for the injuries that they got on the job for like months at a time right these like you know we're sitting around loading boxes all day and some of them are very light but some of

them are really fucking heavy some of them are really awkward to hold they're weirdly shaped like there are some boxes where like they they tell you about the ups tells you about methods the eight keys of lifting and lowering that you know should make it safe but like there are some boxes where it's impossible to follow those met those methods uh the absolute bane of my existence um and I recognize them every time I see them I swear to god these things must be just filled with lead because you look at them and it's a very small box you know it's not more than like probably 12 inches long you know like no not even 12 inches probably more like seven inches long, you know, like six, seven inches wide, and then like two and a half inches, you know, deep. And that should be a very

easy box, but it's like filled with lead. And for whatever reason, it can weigh like 35 to 50 pounds. Jesus. And it's like one, that box is too small to like have a team lift on because you can't have two people around something like that and like you know when you pick up a box you're supposed to keep the natural curve of your back but do not overextend the curve and you have to for those like packages like that right like there's not a way to position yourself to lift them safely and you kind of have to a little bit jerk up which they tell you not to do but that's the only way to get leverage on it and yeah like and you know i've been in trailers where like a box like that was loaded precariously like just slightly above my head and one time it came crashing down and i like neo'd out of the way like I was like in the fucking matrix and I was just like oh if I had just been a little bit less responsive that could have been

a very serious head injury for me and so yeah the the risk of like very severe injury like you know I busted my face open on a grate outside of uh where the what we call the cans which are like the things that have all the packages they bring them to the bay doors I was unloading and I had to go between them and I like there was motor oil spilled I tripped and I like smashed my open my face open on a fucking grate and had to get stitches like it's yeah no the the safety involved with this job is not extremely guaranteed and yeah the risk of injury is high and we should be preemptively compensated for that yeah it's like and even somehow if you manage to go like your whole career without a single injury um you know there's well at least like more the kind of like accidental injury um because it's

still it's a lot of repetitive motion and you're gonna i mean eventually it's gonna take its toll all right we're doing we're doing we're doing some more ads. Yeah, bye, thanks. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast

Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the

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Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I am talking to a felon right now.

And I cannot decide if I like him or not. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend and I found his piss jar in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails.

I have very overbearing parents. Even at the age of 29, they won't let me move out of their house. So if you want an excuse to get out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head, Out of your own head and see what's going on in someone else's head. Search for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's the one with the green guy on it. All right. We are back. So I guess another aspect of this that I wanted to talk about has been the sort of broader strategy of trying to avoid strikes.

And this has been both sort of, to some extent, run by unions, to some extent, like imposed from the top down. I think a sort of kind of under-discussed aspect of what's been happening in the last sort of year or so has been Biden's willingness to get involved in strikes earlier. Obama eventually got involved in a couple of strikes during his tenure, but he tended to not get involved until a strike had been going on for like nine months or whatever and biden's been taking like a very very proactive approach to sort of i don't know strike mitigation i guess is the sort of like sanitized term you take either like keeping labor peace but he seems to have a sort of you know he seems to be getting very very involved very quickly in trying to make sure strikes don't happen and you know the consequence of this is that we didn't get the rail strike that we should have gotten and there's there's been a few other strikes that have sort of been averted and i wanted to ask i guess how

you're thinking about this strike not just sort of in terms of like the immediate benefits but in terms of what it would actually mean if like another major strike sort of get shut down before we can get going in a year that is, I mean, still, even if the strike doesn't happen, a pretty sort of full year in labor terms. Yeah, yeah. Well, one, I guess I got to say thank you to the most pro-labor president of our lifetime. Yeah, no, he, yeah, about this whole economy thing that we keep talking about, right? And he doesn't want to see any big shocks to the economy. And, you know, that's something where I guess I disagree. I think, you know, I think a shock to the economy that is brought about by workers going on strike is a reminds them of what they have and what they move and what they create. Right. And I think, yeah, the ruling class, our politicians and the capitalists who own our politicians, they don't want us to experience that.

on us to experience that. You know, like I remember even during the, you know, the Trump administration when, you know, it was when during the government shutdown and Sarah Nelson got all the flight attendants to do a sick out and stuff like that. And kind of just like that, the government shutdown had ended and they all went back to do government things, whatever those government things are. And, you know, like people on Twitter, you know, they were talking about like, yeah, this is like workers have power to affect not only their own work conditions, but they can have broad implications on society, on the political climate, on what's going on. And yeah, there was absolutely, I think, a contingent of centrist liberals that were like really frightened by that idea. You know, they like a society in which the right people who went to the right schools and all of that, like where they're the ones are in charge and they are the ones that are shaping history with the pen strokes on like, you know, whatever bills they're legislating.

And yeah, I think they have a vested interest in making sure that workers don't get to experience that sense of autonomy that they can experience by going on strike. And by seeing, you know, exactly what kind of power they have and what it does. Because they don't want it. They don't want it to get beyond what's going on in the workplace. They barely want it there, you know, like. So, yeah, yeah, I think there is a vested interest. And yeah, I have not been able to see it confirmed, but I have seen in articles where they will say that, you know, Sean O'Brien had met with President Biden, but then there isn't a link click through. So I can't figure out what the initial thing is, but I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. And it's a damn shame.

And it's a damn shame. It's a shame that the president of our rank and file to like get to just like sign on to some kind of agreement and i think i think this is something that you know in in terms of sort of political repression like it's something that's not understood in the same way but like that is also still like that like that that like negotiating behind the scenes and putting pressure on and then you know eventually biden does just actively like mandate that the strike can't happen right like that is like that i i i will argue that that is in fact a form of strike breaking i agree and and i i think i I think people tend to be less, but, you know, specifically

the ability to sort of cut deals with unions like this is something that the Republicans aren't really good at. It's not an ability that they really have. It's something that is largely limited to the Democrats. But this means

that they have sort of they have a unique capacity to repress social movements that isn't as obvious as sort of like you know just like a bunch of strike breakers showing up or the cops showing up but is there all the same and i think is in some ways more dangerous because you know like you get these arguments with like with the rail strike where like technically eventually biden was able to get some kind of deal through for some sick time right but you know and and you have you have this sort of like liberal conception of of what labor is where they're like oh well yeah you everyone was wrong to like be mad at biden for this like they got the thing eventually, but you know,

the problem here isn't, it isn't just, you know, strikes aren't just about the immediate thing that you're fighting for. Right? Like they, they're, they're also about like moving the class as a whole.

They're about the experience of striking. They're about the, and they, and they're also about the fact that you will get a better deal if you win a strike than you will if you get like, you know, if you there is a fundamental sort of difference between like liberalism sort of conception of you know you you achieve material gains and it doesn't really matter what the process is right or you know the process is like you go through the legislative domain there there's an actual difference between that and the things that happens during a strike, which is there's an actual process of the building of power of workers and building the autonomy of the class itself. of what we've been seeing here is an attempt both by unions themselves by and you know by by business leaders and also by like the president and the democratic party to try to make sure that this

doesn't happen and that they can sort of contain this really explosive uh labor moment and prevent it from sort of turning into anything more. Yeah, I think that's very true. I think that, you know, the unions, you know, have long been divorced from their original roots as like, you know, this was a communist social, this sprung out of communism, socialism, anarchism. It was about workers banding together to not only collectively bargain just for the workplaces, but for society-wide issues, right? Unions used to be explicitly political. And I, you know, as we've like seen this rise in political conscience, you know, over like this last decade,

the ruling class and, you know, the entrenched union bureaucrats that have long been, you know, divorced from those origins, I think, have a very vested interest in, you know, not having labor go back to those roots to and stuff like that. It obviously threatens the ruling class power, excuse me. And it threatens union bureaucrat jobs when workers start demanding more from what the labor movement can provide for them. So I think that's all very true. And it's just that this is another avenue where collective change is possible. But this is another avenue where collective change is possible, and the state and capital will always clamp down on any avenue where change can be achieved through those means. So I think that's really, really what we're seeing here. Yeah, and I don't know. worth pointing out is that like part of the reason that like part of the reason that you know if you if you go back to sort of like when when the era of the sort of decline of unionism happened right like part part of the reason why the reagan era repression worked was that a lot of these unions

had already sort of hollowed out the radical core of like what had been their union organizers they had purged you know like the the cio and even back as early as like the 40s like the cio purged like all of its leftist members um and you know you got these successive like these these successive sort of iterations of unionism that were less and less militant and you know like you you can you can you can literally see what the result of that has been right like union density down to like six percent and so you know if if if if it keeps going like this and we keep getting these sort of like sustained efforts to make sure that it never redevelops again like yeah like it's we're gonna we're gonna be stuck there yeah and i mean. Yeah, I mean, specific to those UPS contracts,

you can absolutely see that by looking at the wage growth through the last 40 years, or maybe the lack thereof, more of the stagnating wages, just between either union officials or even Biden coming in. I think it's like, you know, more or less like these people who aren't going, you know, who didn't enter the economy, uh, you know, within the last, you know, decade or two, you know, and don't know at all, really what, what our experiences are, uh, you know, what kind of challenges and struggles and burdens we're

facing. And I mean, especially in not prepared at all for, you know, this world with a drastically changing climate. Yeah, yeah. And then like, you know, also to go back to like, you know, the decline of, you know, how unions have operated over these last, for some decades, right? I think this is something I talked about a lot, and I talked about it, I think, on the last podcast. But once the organized left was kind of purged out of all of these unions, unions kind of became about a service model. And that's when the that's when the union leadership, you know, does, you know, like you on the floor are enforcing your contract, you're bringing your grievances to the union and the union is getting something done about them. Right. And I think,

you know, that model in and of itself is indicative of a decline of a collective action. indicative of a decline of a collective action right that reduces the union to yeah that's the entity you're going you go to when there is an issue in the enforcement of your contract and they negotiate a new contract for you and you know that's that's the service model type right and that's like what we're seeing a lot of that's what like you know a lot of the business unions do and stuff like that some of them do it better than others, you know. But then there's also the organizing model where you use the union as a means to make your members militant. And they do contract enforcement on the floor. And they like, you know, organize protests at their work site. And they like, you know, organize protests at their work site and they like, you know, they get involved in, you know, issues outside of the work site. Right. And I think, yeah, like watching the

service model kind of prevail over these last, you know, some decades over the organizing model is just, yeah, it's absolutely just another sign of collective action being stamped down wherever it can be. You know, there's, there's an interesting thing with the, there's an interesting thing with the service model that I see a lot where it's like, you know,

when, when, when, when you're getting like sort of union inoculation like stuff, right. They'll be like, ah, like the management is going to tell you that like the union is an outside

force and it's not, the union is actually you. And it's like, this is true you and it's like this is true but also like damn i i wonder where the idea that the union is an outside force it is not actually you came from like it couldn't you know it's it like it it could it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the way you run your union like okay yep absolutely absolutely yeah i think we were talking about that last time like the kind of like the lack of onboarding engagement by the union yeah um i mean especially you know i mean yeah i mean i know there's i mean other union members too where like it does kind of feel like

they're like oh i don't have all these benefits or higher pay or or you know we're thinking about striking but we don't even have a strike fund uh you know we don't know how exactly we'll weather this storm i mean that's something i hear you know a lot on the shop floor it's like when talking about you know our union you know it's it's always the union i know i say that a ton too, but I mean, I kind of feel like the language we just use like day to day talking about it. You know, it kind of, there's not like inherent separation when it's like, Oh, it's the union. It's this, you know, it's this outside thing. It's not, Oh,

it's a collection of all, you know, rank and file members. It's us. We're the union. And it doesn't, The thing is, it doesn't become that unless you have a really high level of participation and then also a systemic effort to make sure everyone's involved and to make sure that

the union functions in such a way that that decision to membership actually matters. And I don't know, I think, I think, I think it's really, I think it's really easy to, you know, in this moment where unions are incredibly, like, you know, with the total, the actual amount of like unions in the US is really small. And also simultaneously, like, you know, we're seeing a sort of resurgence of union organizing. I think it's really, really easy to sort of fall into this trap and like, be completely uncritical of the way that unions have functioned. of the way that unions have functioned because again like if the current model of unions that exists right now like if that stuff worked like we wouldn't be in in in the sort of conditions that we're in now and that calls for you know like that that that calls for collective action and you know one of the things that calls for is being willing to go on strike.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do you two have anything else that you wanted to add? Yeah, no, because like something that, you know, when I think about like, you know, how do we get back to like this sort of, you know, where a union is, you know, we are the union. A union is a collective of workers advocating for their rights, right? They are banding together, you know, they're negotiating together. And when I think about, you know, the Teamsters, you know, and how they operate right now. And, you know, we just had that big reform slate win where Sean O'Brien won and then, you know, delivered us this contract. And, you know, Sean O'Brien won and then, you know, delivered us this contract. And, you know, Sean O'Brien did do like they did in TDU, did do other good things. They got rid of that constitutional rule that Oliver mentioned earlier.

But I think, you know, when we talk about like bringing down that barrier between the union and the members, the next most obvious step for me is that we need to get to open bargaining in this union. And frankly, I think open bargaining or the fact that this bargaining was closed, you know, it was behind closed doors, you know, there were NDAs signed, there were rank and file members there, but they also couldn't tell us about it because of those, you know, NDAs. Open bargaining is what's going to solve this because this like the whole fiasco about this tentative agreement and now all the kind of resulting hostility that is felt between members and leadership and members and even other members. I think it's, you know, like so much of this is due to a failure of comms and the fact that we did not know what was being discussed in these negotiations at any time, except for the big highlights that they could tell us about, right? And then, you know, they release a highlight reel that has very confusing language. They eventually do release the contract,

but not all of the memorandums of understanding that would help us understand what is actually in that contract. And, you know, they're releasing all of this information in a way that is going to result in people not understanding what's in it. And I really do think open bargaining is the next step that, you know, reformers in this union need to be advocating and organizing for. Because this has just kind of been a real shit show, um, to be honest. And I, yeah, I think it's a comms failure to be perfectly honest. So, yeah.

Yeah. And I would, I would absolutely agree with that. Um, you know, and I know like there was, there was a IBT webinar with, um, Sean O'Brien and, you know, he even spoke to misinformation, but didn't, you know, elaborate on what it was or, you know, how or why it's wrong. And I was just like, man, you got our emails, addresses, phone numbers. We're here on this webinar. Like you can correct the record anytime, you know, it's if you're worried about something that's not true and may may or may not influence people's votes like you can do something about that like you

you have a lot of money uh you have you know a comms team so use it uh you know just talk to your members like they're real people uh you know we can we can understand shit uh you don't gotta just you know get get angry or even kind of like i was saying earlier where it's just like almost this like feels like this framing where anything you know that's a dissenting view or a critique you know so oh it's just it's all misinformation don't don't pay any attention to it yeah which is you know i i don't know like i i've seen this in a couple of i don't know like i this i've seen this in a couple of sort of union things we've covered on this show is like i don't know and and an incredible unwillingness of union leadership to even like

consider a position that's not their own and to just sort of like immediately you know when confronted with another thing to just immediately attempt to completely delegitimate them and that sucks um yeah yeah it's just not a not a great way to run a union. No, no. You definitely, you know, and I've been seeing this closing, like, sort of rank around leadership, right? And it's not something that inspires trust in union leadership whatsoever, right? Like, you know, you could be a member that, you know, doesn't understand something, just has a question, and then you kind of getting, and you kind of just end up being stonewalled. And, you know, you're told, well, you know, go to this meeting where we're going

to explain things and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And it's like, yeah, but, you know, I have you on the phone now. Can you explain it now? And, you know, and it's as it's like they're taking all of these concerns as a personal blow to their ego. Right. Like they're taking it personally as if people having concerns about what this contract does and does not stipulate is like an attack on their moral character. And. and does not stipulate is like an attack on their moral character. And it's just really fucking frustrating. I got to be real with you. And, you know, it doesn't say a lot for the overall democratic nature of the union either. Right. Like, you know, this is like, you know, you're kind of being told, well, you know, keep your opinions to yourself, accept our word for it. Like you can vote however you want. You know, this is one member, one vote being told well you know keep your opinions to yourself accept our word for it like you can vote however you want you know this is one member one vote but you know you can't be

going online talking about it you like can't be going talking to your co-workers about it because you don't have all the information you're not understanding it correctly and it's just like, well, can you get better at explaining it? Can you not react this way? Like, can we have like a thing where like, we can just like fucking talk about what's in it and what's not in it. And yeah, it's, it's just, again, been real fucking frustrating. Yeah. It's another thing. I mean, too, is, you know, any contract language, maybe it should either be more clear or concise, or if it's going to be more on the legalese side, you know, put out a little, like, contract, like, explainer guide,

maybe especially around key language or language that they know is maybe vague or going to cause, you know, issues of like understanding it. And even, you know, one other thing about like, you know, open bargaining was, you know, looking at the IBT press release, you know, there's one paragraph and it starts, rank and file members served on the committee for the first time. It continues on later saying, you know, our hard work has finally paid for our hard work has paid off. And, you know, and goes on to then say, you know, this is the most historic contract we've ever had. hat so it kind of seems like right there where it's like well if limited member participation found by ndas led to this historic contract maybe it's time to involve all of us

and also you know the rank and file that are on these committees are appointed by leadership so we don't we don't get to choose who these people are. And it's like leadership absolutely just has the ability to be like, well, I'm going to, you know, appoint the ones that I like the most, that I have the best relationship with, that I know thinks the sun kind of shines out of my ass. And yeah, there's just this absolutely overall lack of a democratic internal culture. You know, we elect, you know, our officers, most of them, but we don't elect stewards. We don't really, we don't elect our business agents or like anything like that. We vote on our contracts and that's it. You know, at our union meetings, I have had one union meeting where we did a vote that was introduced by leadership, right? It's just, it's, yeah, it's not the most democratic culture. And that's another thing that needs to, that needs to change as well.

that's another thing that needs to that needs to change as well yeah and i mean i think that goes back to a sort of like you know a fundamental political conflict which is like is is democracy when you vote for someone else to make every decision or is democracy when people collectively make decisions themselves and the sort of slipperiness of those two things causes you know like causes you know allows people who essentially want to be the only ones who ever get to make decisions to be able to claim that they are in favor of democracy or whatever but you know mean like mean that they get to make all decisions after they get elected and not mean actual people sort of make decisions for themselves yeah one thousand percent yeah it's like we need a you know more someone who serves as more of a delegate role than a uh you know representative okay i guess i guess my my final thing is i

yeah you you two are both encouraging are going to encourage people to vote no on this contract for the extremely long list of both technical, procedural, material, and broadly social reasons. Yeah, that's correct. I'll be voting no and also advocating for that and also i mean just also advocating people to vote as well yes big same on that uh low low union participation uh sends a bad message to the company. So definitely, definitely doing both and continuing to have those conversations on the shop floors with folks explaining my concerns and stuff like that.

But yeah, no, I'm, I'm also going to be voting no on this contract as well. Yeah. So that is... Yeah, I guess that is our coverage of this. There is still time for there to actually be a strike and for this contract to fail

and for people to fight for a better one. And yeah, I wish both of you two good luck in fighting this. And yeah yeah and thank you both for coming on yeah yeah thanks so much for having us i was excited to give you guys an update about all the crazy shit we talked about in the first episode yeah i'm glad glad glad we got to talk about it was a pleasure being on and yeah the time. Yeah. Do you have anything to plug before? Yes or no vote. Solidarity. All workers and everyone on the shop floor.

And, you know, we'll keep on fighting for better conditions. Yeah. And you too, dear listener listener can fight for better conditions in your own workplace and yeah. If one day, one day fight for a world where we don't have workplaces like this at all. Amen. Hallelujah. It could happen here as a production of cool zone media for more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

Hey, guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow.

Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturno on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions.

Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.