It Could Happen Here - The Struggle for Abortion Rights in Mexico

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

We talk to Erika Yamada, a feminist and human rights activist in Mexico about the struggle for abortion rights and what we can learn from the Green Tide. https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/278968/9789241550406-eng.pdfSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a show that is currently taking place in the death of abortion rights in the u.s and yeah it's not good um with me to talk about this is shereen is sophie is is garrison and is robert evans and okay so what one of the things that's been happening in the immediate wake of of the supreme court decision that has destroyed Roe v. Wade is

there's been a lot of discussion about the abortion rights movement in Mexico. And by discussion, I mean in sort of classical American fashion, people saw exactly one meme and reposted it. And that's now the sum of like all American knowledge about the abortion struggle in Mexico. So to try to get a deeper understanding of what's been going on in Mexico and how the struggle for abortion was won there, we're talking to Erika Yamada, who's a feminist and human rights activist born and raised in Mexico. Erika, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Chris, Shereen, Sophie, Garrison, and Robert. I'm so honored and excited to be here and very grateful

to be considered to share about the struggle for abortion rights in Mexico. So before starting this discussion, I would like to share a little bit about myself and the organization I work in, to have some background about the experiences and data I will be communicating in this space. I have been involved in many agendas for girls and women's rights for approximately eight years now. I am currently part of the Women Deliver 2020 class, and I also work in the non-governmental organization, Gender E, citizenship work and family that has over 25 years of experience working for sexual and reproductive rights in Mexico, particularly for the access to legal and safe abortion. Our organization promotes and advocates for the sexual and reproductive health and rights of youth through DDC. DDC is the Network for Sexual and Reproductive Rights in Mexico that has presence in 12 states, and we focus mainly on marginalized communities. We support children, youth, women, and advocate for change at local, regional, and national level.

And our axis is contributing to decriminalize abortion, guaranteeing access to health services, and generate a favorable public opinion about women's right to decide. We are also part of the National Co-Choice Alliance in Mexico, an effort of five organizations, Gender Equality, the Population Council, IPAS Central America, Catholics for the Right to Decide, and JIRE, each with different expertise regarding abortion. Together, we have worked on comprehensive strategies that include the legal, the social,

religious, ethical, and investigation aspects of abortion. ethical and investigation aspects of abortion. And I would like to start sharing some of the context and the legal situation of abortion in Mexico, if it's okay. Yes, please. In our country, voluntary abortion during the 12 weeks of pregnancy is legalized only in certain states. Mexico City, the capital, was the only state in the whole country that decriminalized abortion in 2007. Twelve years later, in 2019, the state of Oaxaca became the second state to ensure access to this health service. Afterwards, 2021 was historic.

It was a very, very historic year to us. four states, Hidalgo, Veracruz, Baja California, and Colima also decriminalized abortion. Then this year, 2022, three other states have been added to this list, Sinaloa, Guerrero, and Baja California Sur. This means nine out of 32 states have decriminalized abortion. In the other states of the Mexican Republic, abortion is only, if the pregnancy causes health effects, among other reasons. It depends on each penal code of each state. And I also must add that pregnancy due to rape is the only indication that permits legal abortion in all states. And now coming back to what Chris said that there was like a meme. I think you referred to the meme of the public protest.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of the, the black clad female protesters attacking. Is it a, I couldn't tell if it's, I don't recall if it's a city hall or a police station or something. There's a building they're going after. Yeah. I have also seen some of these media reports that said that they say that we achieved legal abortion thanks to these radical public demonstrations and well it is undeniable that among the most significant achievements is the role mobilization of feminists and women to eradicate violence and demand justice.

Mexico has demonstrated the world this revolutionary progress with a mass feminist protest and this image is from 2019. It was a huge feminist protest that condemned violence against women, especially sexual and feminist-side violence, police brutality, and the impunity that permeates the governmental system. We received a lot of international media attention, and it has been one like the recent highlights of the feminist movement in our country but like the struggle for abortion entails so much more and yes it did have some influence for example in 2020 feminists in two states Quintana Roo and Puebla, took their local congresses and demanded the discussion of abortion initiatives. And they have put this agenda on the table. It is worth mentioning that the struggle for abortion, it goes back so many years. It goes back so many years. Feminists have been fighting for reproductive rights, including the access to legal abortion for decades now. The progress regarding this struggle has unfolded historically during these recent years for many other reasons one thing i want to go back to a little bit to talk about is

you were talking about the protest being pro-abortion protests but also talking about anti-femicide and anti-violence stuff and i was wondering if you could talk about the anti-femicide uh campaigns too because that's been a really big part of this that gets basically no coverage in the u.s yeah well in mexico 11 women are murdered every day we have a huge femicide problem that has been silenced by the government even by the the president who minimizes this horrible situation. So in 2019, there was an emblematic case where police officers raped and tortured a girl. And that's how this protest started.

And since August 2019, like most feminist protests have been regarding the violence against women. But I would also like to add about the struggle for abortion. I think that in the global south, the Marea Verde, the Green Tide, it played the most fundamental role. This movement, which came from Argentina, is one of the main successes that strengthened the struggle for abortion rights and even the feminist movement in Mexico. It expanded in many countries, including Mexico. Here we have a national Green Tide and many local Green Tide groups in all of our states. all of our states. And these collectives have played a large role demanding social and legal decriminalization of abortion across the country. And there is also an increase of networks

that provide self-managed abortion information and accompaniment services which have contributed to fighting the stigma that still surrounds abortion and the Green Tide and the feminist movement it has become like, how do you say it's been merged and like

feminist movements and the Green Tide fight for legal and safe abortion but also to eradicate the violence against girls and women yeah that makes that makes sense and about the green tide i have two questions about the green tide uh one is what kinds of tactics have green tide groups been doing and also how how linked have the international movements been? How closely have these organizations been communicating across and working together across the different countries?

Okay. Since the Green Tide came from Argentina, like the most, how do you say, the communication comes from regional countries in Latin America. And Mexico has been learning from these Latin American countries, their experiences. We have seen the feminist movements, the protests, also more in the South. And the green handkerchief has this very, very powerful symbol of legal and safe abortion. And this has also contributed to the social decriminalization of abortion. And wearing this green handkerchiefs in the protest also means demanding this health service. And one of our tactics is, of course, pressuring the government.

In Mexico, political will primarily from the left-leaning ruling party has been fundamental for the decriminalization. With the new government that arrived in 2018, headed by Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, we have more allies and progressive legislators. So due to the majority that this political party has in many local congresses, the feminists of each state have been able to pressure and work with these legislators and keep pushing this agenda. That's awesome. I think something that I'm still stuck on is that at the very least, all the states agree that abortion is okay if it happened from rape. Is that what you said that's the one like we we have a federal law it's the 046 official mexican norm that states that abortion is legal if the pregnancy is due to rape and all the states all the public officials have this obligation to to ensure that this that this happens but sometimes

like we we have so many prejudices that sometimes even doctors don't respect the law but by law it should be legal and it's not that they all agree it's the it's the it's better on them yeah it's just so i mean it's definitely has its flaws uh and people with their own biases but like here usually the rapist will have more rights and protection than the person that got raped like there are the family is allowed to sue the person that got an abortion for example it's it's insane but so for then here a lot of it a lot of the bigotry comes from like christianity and religion is it the same like is that the baseline for the opposition there too yes because mexico is a predominantly catholic country and abortion entails many controversies due to the different

positions that come from this religious stances that ignore and deny the access to this service and deny it's a human rights issue and religious anti-rights groups or how do you say anti-rights groups, or how do you say, anti-choice groups, have a powerful presence and are actively hindering law proposals regarding this topic. The prejudices and stigma are present even amongst health care providers. And sometimes the religious people, they pressure these health care providers, the legislators. For example, every time there is a law in a local Congress, there are so many religious groups outside the Congress. uh how do you say like bothering the legislators they even get their personal numbers and they are harassing them yes harassing is the word they're harassing them so yes they they have a lot of power a lot of money and this affects uh affects even the states where abortion is legal because, as I said before, sometimes doctors deny it even if it's requested under the legal indication. So yes, it's a problem.

Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors supernatural creatures. I know you.

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm curious what you see as kind of the value of the street actions that were carried out as opposed to kind of the actual organization

on the legislative side of things? What degree do you think both contributed to the successes that y'all have seen? I think both were very, very important to the recent successes. The public demonstrations helped the feminist movements strengthen. Like it is like, yes, this recent protests have been the, what do you say? It has been where the most women have gone out to the streets, taken the streets, and it has helped because the government has responded to some of our requests. But also, it is extremely important to talk about the organization.

And also, something I didn't mention, and that I would like to emphasize is that in 2021, the Supreme Court of Justice in Mexico ruled favorably in four abortion-related cases. And these provided us with progressive jurisprudence and legal interpretations in favor of recognizing and increasing abortion rights. So this has served our movement and all the argumentation to push the decriminalization laws. the decriminalization was. And well, about the four cases, in the first case, the Supreme Court declared that limitations to access legal abortion after rape must be removed.

In the second case, it declared that the absolute criminalization of abortion with consent is unconstitutional. And in the third case, it declared that the protection of life from the moment of conception is unconstitutional. And in the fourth case, the court ruled that legislative reforms broadening the boundaries of conscientious objection in the federal health law are unconstitutional. And the Supreme Court is the highest court of justice in Mexico, and all judges should respect what they establish and well unfortunately it doesn't happen in all states and but it is like the most important precedent we

we have right now and it is fundamental for our argumentation in local congresses. Has the national government done anything at all to try to force the states who are not following the rulings to accept the rulings? No, because our president, he is very neutral in this topic. And he has spoken against feminist movements. And he thinks that any protest means like conservators against his liberal government. against his liberal government. So, no, we don't have this support from the national government. Although, as I mentioned before, we have a lot of allies and in many instances that have helped to pressure state public officials to respect the law and to keep pushing this agenda. Is the president, I'm just curious, I'm ignorant, but is the president like, well,

how is he received by the general public? Like, what's people's, like, is he neutral? Because, I mean, he's a coward because he doesn't want to rock any boats. But what's the response for the public? He still has a lot of support from the majority. He is one of the first, how do you say, progressive presidents, although we have been very disappointed by many of his actions. For instance, the increase of militarization and the criminalization of feminists, of human rights activists, of journalists. of feminists, of human rights activists, of journalists. However, it is the first time in so many years that a president talks about poor Indigenous people that send support to rural communities.

So he still has a lot of support. he still has a lot of support um one thing that i don't know how much i don't know how much you want to get into it but um we talked to some people oh god i don't remember how many months ago now but we talked to some people a while back who were um doing trans rights organizing in mexico and they were talking a lot about how um that you they were talking about how i guess like anti-choice conservative groups had been using um have been using sort of organized transphobic groups as a way to sort of divert attention away from the abortion struggle and the femicide struggle

into stuff that doesn't challenge the status quo. And yeah, I was wondering if you wanted to talk about that a little bit. Yes, thank you so much for talking about this. Transphobia in the feminist movements is horrible. The transphobic feminists have been getting to conservative public officials. They have been approaching religious groups. been approaching religious groups and they have even affected the abortion agenda because some of our laws include people with the capacity to get pregnant so these health services include trans men and non-binary people but these transphobic feminists have been how do you say

obstaculizing this this struggle because of these prejudices and it is very very sad and some of the main and most famous references in feminism have been citing this transphobic side. And yes, they are approaching to the ultra-right, and they have been hindering not only trans people's rights, but now women's rights in general. not only trans people's rights, but now women's rights in general. Yeah, I think, oh, was it? I'm trying to remember off the top of my head. I think there was a picture that was going around that was some of the organizers from one of the transphobic feminist collectives

taking pictures with Felipe Calderon. Yeah, I think it was Felipe Calderon. Yeah, I think it was Felipe Calderon. Yeah, but... I don't know. I haven't seen that one. But there was a forum some weeks ago. It was a forum in the National Autonomous University of Mexico. And it was a feminist discussion. And most of the panelists were so, so famous in all Latin America,

started to say some transphobic points. So, yes, this anti-rights movement is very present in feminism. Yeah, I guess the other thing on that point that I was wondering is, how have pro-trans feminists been fighting back against these people? Has that been happening a lot? Well, we've tried, but it has been very, very difficult because literally there are transphobic people everywhere. Everywhere. I mean, government and non-governmental organizations and institutions. are not, how do you say, socially conscious about trans rights.

So transphobic people have so much more power. But sometimes we denounce it in social media. We report it to international organizations. And we have all the human rights narrative and argumentation in our favor. But it is difficult because there are so many transphobes everywhere. trans transphobes everywhere uh we have also contacted international organizations to to publicly say that for example if you want to access a certain grant you have to have an transition, what other ways. We, like, the trans movement has strengthened so much since 2019 because in Mexico City, the, a lot to recognize trans children and adolescents was pushed for the first time, like via the administrative way. So there has been, how do you say, a commission of trans organizations, collectives. So I think that is the most noteworthy progress. Welcome, I'm Danny Trejo.

Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonorum. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal tales from the shadows as part of my cultura podcast network available

on the iheart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast yeah i guess there's been a lot of people like looking to the green tide and looking to uh sort of the broader latin american feminist movement for sort of inspiration and also for sort of tactical advice and i was wondering what like what advice would you give people in the u.s who are coming into this fight now and where would you send people to learn more stuff about it? Some key points I consider relevant is, firstly, the visibility of the pro-choice agenda and the social decriminalization of abortion. When we talk about legal abortion, we have to emphasize a lot also on the social decriminalization. It is very important to work on strategies to reduce stigma and demonstrate that abortion is a common reproductive event that must be approached using gender perspective and the human rights

framework. We encourage public dissemination of the legal, medical, and social information with hard sustained data from international organizations that position abortion as a human right and an essential health service. And related to this first point, the narrative and the argumentation. We have to focus on the access to safe and legal abortion as a human rights issue, which means it's a governmental obligation to ensure access to this service. On our case, Mexico has national and international commitments regarding girls' and women's rights, and I'm pretty sure the United States also has this commitment.

So it's their obligation. It's the government's obligation to ensure. And also regarding their narrative, we have to work on naturalizing abortion and encourage people to stop using this word as a crime. Abortion is a human right, and it is a reproductive event in the lives of women and people with the capacity to get pregnant. And it's a reproductive event that has always existed and will always exist, either naturally or induced. And some of the organizations that I know of here that can provide information

are the pro-choice alliance organizations, Catholics for the Right to Decide. They can give the religious and ethical arguments. My organization, Gender Equality, we have the social argumentations. We accompany and work with the girls and women. We are in 12 states and we are in the mobilizations, we are in the local congresses. Also, JIRE JIRE in Spanish is Grupo de Información de Reproducción Elegida. They have all the legal expertise

and they work these reforms and laws to decriminalize abortion. We have IPAS. IPAS is an international organization and they are medical experts and they provide all types of data and information regarding this part. And the Population Council, they are the experts on monitoring and investigation, and they have many research papers. And, well, there are also, like, other pages that can give information, for example, about, what do you say, self-induced abortion. The health organization has a protocol. It's a public protocol for self-induced abortion, and it is completely safe to do it at home.

Well, I really appreciate all the information. Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. I think it's really helpful to hear what other countries have done in the same struggle. It's so similar but different at the same time because we've dealt with the same similar things like TERFs and religious opposition and everything.

So it's really helpful, I think, to see, to realize that, first of all, it is a basic human right. It's not even, it's like internationally an issue. And then just to see how other people have organized is really important i think yes and now i i believe that we have like uh kind of a similar situation where there well it's a situation of legal discrimination in which only women who live or have the resources to travel to the states that have decriminalized abortion can exercise their right for voluntary legal

interruption of their pregnancy am i right because i like i i don't know much about the situation in the united states but i know that it is legal in some states right yeah yeah so it is legal in some states and then like in contrast to that it's like illegal even in case of rape and like the people that have been raped can be sued it's like a very like up and down kind of balance um but yeah there's definitely both that exist and i think that's where it becomes really hard to extinguish the bad side yes part part of our struggle to decriminalize abortion in the other states is because women who who live in poverty and marginalized conditions who want to have an abortion but reside in other states where it's illegal cannot do so under legal circumstances so

it's also a class problem it's yeah definitely and also in Mexico there are some states that even criminalize a spontaneous abortion, it wasn't even induced and instead of calling an ambulance, some people call the health cops

when a woman is dying because of a spontaneous abortion so yes when a woman is dying because of a spontaneous abortion. That's terrible. Yes. And this has caused also a public health problem affecting girls and women in more vulnerable situations who live in the most restrictive context,

rural and indigenous communities also migrants girls and and women victims of of sexual abuse women with disabilities among others and always always always the the most vulnerable vulnerable women are more susceptible to getting unsafe, clandestine abortions, which can lead to infections, hemorrhaging, injury to internal organs, and even death. There are some places in communities where there is not even access to internet or to basic health services

and girls and women are still dying due to unsafe abortions. And they are like 100% preventable deaths yeah no totally yeah thank you you're you've been amazing um but it's interesting because that's true i think regardless of the country the most vulnerable are the most affected whether it's i mean it's a class issue

it's a race issue it's a disability issue it's like so all these things that I mean rich people will get abortions either way like privileged people will always have a route to take care of themselves so it's just I don't know it's unfortunate just seeing how like humans have

functions regardless of the country that they build it's sad and criminalizing abortion does not reduce its practice anything that prohibiting it will like end its practice and it only increases the probabilities of decent safe procedures and it increases the the stigma and prejudices and it even strengthens this anti-rights and choice groups but when abortion is performed in a in a safe and important matter it is even less risky than childbirth and non-gathering intervention and uh for example it is much safer for for a girl to have an abortion than to what do you say than to continue with

with yeah when the pregnancy is like threatening her life. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And well, that's why we have to keep fighting for legal regionalization. Thank you for lifting it back up. I was really, I was getting down there. Yes. And here in Mexico,

like bills continue to be promoted in different states. We keep forming and strengthening alliances, and we have to strengthen these alliances with all types of sectors. And that's why the alliance work, for example, because there are the religious sectors. We work also with legislators, with doctors, health care providers, even in schools and with the public general. So it is a collective effort and a collective commitment. Yeah, very true. I have nothing to add that's better than that so thank you so much for

joining us and I'm going to step away now thank you for sharing yeah and I guess one last thing well A do you have anything else you want to say and then B where can people find you on the internet

if they want to and do you have other organizations and stuff that you want to promote i'm like erica llamada in all my social media and the organization i work in it's equidad de genero ciudadanía, trabajo y familia. But the National Network for Reproductive Rights, where we are in 12 states, it's called DEDESER. I will write, it's D-E-S-E-R. And you can find us in most of the states. And we can provide information regarding abortion if you write to us.

Also, something I would like to say is that even after it's legalized, we must continue to ensure that these abortion services are implemented and that they can reach to all girls and women, that it must be guaranteed in paper and in practice. And yes, the emphasis in reaching the most underserved and vulnerable populations.

All right. Well, I think that's probably going to do it for us today. Erica, thank you so much for talking. Thank you so much. Yeah. It's a wealth of information. It's really valuable. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Yeah. And thank you all for listening. That's your episode for the day. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources.

Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of right. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.