It Could Happen Here - The Theory and Practice of Mutual Aid

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

James is joined by Ruth Kinna to discuss lifeboats, Kropotkin, and how we can all take part in mutual aid.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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cast that in a broader perspective. We talk a lot about mutual aid but we don't talk often about what it is and what it means and how it's been happening for a very long time. So Ruth, would you like to introduce yourself and tell us everything you think is relevant? Yeah, thank you, James. So my name is Ruth Kinner and I work at Loughborough University in the UK. Loughborough is halfway between Nottingham and Leicester in the East Midlands. And I'm a political theorist and historian of ideas and I specialise in anarchist political thought. And one of the people I've spent probably most time looking at is Peter Kropotkin. And I've written about Kropotkin's life and work. I'm also the editor of the journal Anarchist Studies, and I'm a member at Loughborough University of the Anarchism

Research Group. Oh, lovely. Yeah, that's a very, very appropriate CV for this. And so can we start off by explaining, because I think people hear mutual aid sort of thrown about a lot and they know that it's people helping people. But what would you define it as? What would be a useful definition for people to work off? So mutual aid is about people helping people. is about people helping people, but I think Kropotkin's argument or the way that anarchists tend to think about mutual aid is that it's a way of describing a relationship that can be encouraged or discouraged according to the ways in which we organise our social relationships. So mutual aid is a kind of a response that we all have to people when it's based on empathy, I guess. But it's something that we can dampen, I suppose, if we divorce ourselves from that people's well-being is the concern of others, rather than something which is a collective concern of all of us. Yeah, I think that's really excellent, because it's very easy,

especially if you're living under capitalism as it exists today, to divorce yourself from your empathy, or I don't know if responsibility is the right word, but to help other people. We see that all the time. And I think one area where we've seen that increasingly, certainly in the two countries that we're sitting in, is with this bizarre, I don't want to pathologize it, but this deeply untasteful lack of empathy for refugees and people

seeking asylum and so i wanted to sort of start with the example of the lifeboats in the uk and because i think they're great they pop up in in kropotkin they've been around for a long time and they were at least when i was living in the uk a very cherished institution that people supported and can you explain a little bit about how they operate within that sort of mutual aid lens? Yeah, so the Lifeboat Association was prompted by, it's called an appeal to the British nation. It was published in 1825 by this guy called William Hillary. And what Hillary wanted to do was to support the foundation of a kind of national institution that was going to help the victims of shipwrecks. And he couched

this project actually as quite a sort of, in nationalistic terms, I suppose, or in patriotic terms, as sort of part of the duty that British people would have as one of the great seafaring nations. But what it did was that it established the skeleton, if you like, or it produced the sort of the foundation for the Lifeboat Association, which is what we know now, which is basically a voluntary organisation run by volunteers, funded by the public, with a remit to help anybody who is in distress at sea. And I guess although it was sort of the original idea of the Lifeboat Association came from this sort of rather patriotic seafaring tradition, Hillary's idea was that once you set up

these organisations locally on the coast, that actually they could be replicated. So he did have a sort of internationalist perspective. He thought that these things would mushroom across the globe and that we would have lifeboat associations everywhere. I'm not sure if that's true, but certainly the Lifeboat Association is still alive and well in the UK, and it does exactly what he wanted it to do. It looks after people in distress at sea without fear or favour, and it's an example of mutual aid, I guess, because the people who do this as volunteers are always putting themselves at risk of peril or drowning, if you like, in order to try and preserve the lives of others. Yeah. And it's a very, at least from my memory, an institution that I've never really heard of anyone having negative opinions about lifeboats until relatively recently.

Like there was always a lifeboat shaped thing that you could put money in, like a donation box and people just put money in it. And no one was like, oh, I don't like the lifeboats. suppose they've come under fire from britain first um for i think they would phrase it as like encouraging people to take the risk of traveling on small boats to the united kingdom to claim asylum uh and can you characterize i don't want you to characterize that attack because it's it's relatively easy to characterize and it's it's you know it doesn't need much explaining it's stupid but uh the response to that like because i think it has been quite it's easy for people in america to see britain as like a parochial little island full of turfs but um i think actually most people were still like most people were pretty i guess offended by the thought that we'd allow people

to drown rather than coming to our country right to claim asylum is that a fair statement yeah I think so I mean I think it was astonishing actually um or I think it astonished people that that the lifeboat association would be politicized in the way that that was that was attempted by the right um the whole idea of of of of picking and choosing who one would rescue at sea is is simply preposterous and as you say i mean you know the lifeboat association is is um widely supported i mean you tend to see um offices of the lifeboat association at seasides so you know this is a you know the environment is the holiday environment it's the beach environment um it's part of being together uh in a place which is enjoyed by people together um but which also has its risks and i mean the first time i think i you

know i came across the lifeboat association was um was actually through an appeal that was uh made through a very popular and well-known b television program for children, which was called Blue Peter. And, you know, they funded a boat by asking kids to send in milk bottle tops, which could be melted down and turned into aluminium or whatever it was. And then, you know, this is how they funded a lifeboat. I mean, so this, you know, lifeboats are deeply rooted, I think. I mean, the support for lifeboats are deeply rooted in people's psyche in this country.

And as I say, I think it was interesting, I guess, that these calls from the right, that the Lifeboat Association was somehow doing wrong in looking after migrant boats. I mean, the small boats, really vulnerable dinghies that were being sailed across the channel. migrant boats, I mean, the small boats, really vulnerable dinghies that were being sailed across the channel. I just think it gained absolutely no traction because it simply didn't speak to people's public or deeply held perceptions, if you like, of the role of this association. Yeah. And there's been a really significant campaign to dehumanize migrants in the UK, even perhaps to a degree greater than we've seen in much of the US, although there's complete bipartisan consensus

that we should criminalize people coming here in the United States too. And people will have heard that I spent the last week driving along the border seeing little children forced to to be held in the desert with no shade and no water like it's it's also very brutal here but i think it says something that that's an institution that looks like that we that was a line that wasn't crossable i guess by the right and this demonization of migrants so we having established that this is a very cherished and important institution, can we talk about how mutual aid is something that, because I think it can seem understandably to people who have been educated in the sort of neoliberal consensus, it certainly is very common in schools and universities in both of our countries, how this is in fact being like part of human history for as

long as people have been living in societies and how it's a natural human response to want to do this yeah so i mean i think this takes us back to to kropotkin's um uh theorization if you like of mutual aid so i mean talking about sort of you you know, our neoliberal culture, I mean, Kropotkin's writing in a time where you have a similar kind of individualism being stoked. And it's being stoked particularly through a notion of social Darwinism. So, the idea that fitness is linked to, or that the survival is linked to individual fitness and that competition is the basic rule of life. And that therefore not only individuals, but states as well, should be pitting themselves against each other in order to gain advantage and to secure their own well-being. And Kropotkin wanted to sort of challenge this argument. And so the way he did it was to say two things.

One, that biological fitness is not linked to competition. It's actually linked to cooperation. So individuals in any species cannot survive unless they have support from others in their species. I mean, it's simply, you know, that's how biology works. So whatever advantage that individuals might, you know, acquire, actually their well-being depends on the cooperation or the collective practices that they have with others. So he recognised that there was interspecies competition, but he said basically within species, survival is based on cooperation. And from that, he then said, you know, one of the things that we can learn from this, from this sort of review of social Darwinism is to think about how we can encourage cooperation as a moral value.

And he said, you know, the way that we, because that's a good thing, surely it's, you know, if we're biologically attuned to cooperate, then why don't we make this a principle of our lives? And he said that the way that we should do this is by configuring our social arrangements or our environments, if you like, in ways that enabled us to see that we were affected by the same sorts of problems, that we had affinities with each other, that there was a basic relationship that we had with each other, not only with family members and friends, but with strangers too. And that once we could understand that, then actually we could sort of organise our social lives in ways that were supportive of others when they were in positions of need or when they were in situations of need. Yeah. So how would one go about doing that?

Because it can seem, look where I live, thousands of people live on the street, right? And I can watch people every day walk past people who just need a little bit of help and not give it to them. And it can be very disheartening. And so how do we begin to organize in a way that recognizes our sort of mutual dependence? So, I mean, part of the argument, I think, is that people will fill the gaps when they see that others are in need. And that's exactly what the Lifeboat Association does. That's exactly what happened during the pandemic, for example. So, you know, not surprisingly, one of the things that happened in the first weeks of the pandemic was the mushrooming of groups that called themselves mutual aid societies, mutual aid associations, and they were networked. I mean, somebody set up a website so that people could see exactly where these groups were. They were networked in the UK. I think there

were some relationships that were even transatlantic. So part of the argument is that you don't have to plan this. And in fact, mutual aid is an unplanned, is best thought of as an unplanned response. Mutual aid is an unplanned, is best thought of as an unplanned response. But I guess the other thing is, or the question that mutual aid begs is that, you know, if people get together in times to fill the gaps, if you like, to provide support for people who are in need, then how do they sustain those organisations over periods of time without suffering burnout and all the rest of it. And I think that really then depends on, you know, sort of establishing, I guess, I mean, you know, that's again why we should take some heart, I think, from the Lifeboat Association. It's been going a long time. It is possible to do these things, but it's difficult. And it does require that you learn how to cooperate with people who you might not otherwise work with, you might not otherwise think you have anything in common with, but where you find that common ground in order to undertake practical activities in collaboration with each

other. Yeah, I think that's very prescient. I'm always like, in 2018, I don't know if you were familiar with this, but in the southern border of the United States we had a large group of migrants coming here from Central America who became like a sort of talking point in the midterms and through no fault of their own right and they were held at the US border and then tear gassed from the Tommy Hilfiger gift talent store in San Diego and I was really impressed with like i was there trying to help with my friends and and sort of trying to do anarchist things but also there there were people who were older ladies from churches and people from mosques and people from synagogues and very

very much willing to work together and you know like you know we'd go to costco together and spend thousands and thousands on water and nappies for babies and such. But I think getting past that initial sort of, I'm not a person who works with me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories their journeys and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together you know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout well that's when the real magic happens so if you love hearing real inspiring

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Can you perhaps think of other examples that people i'm interested in things like the life boats which people might not see through the lens of mutual aid because they're such established institutions that they there's an assumption i think a lot of people probably think that there's some kind of state involvement with the lifeboats right and the same with lots of um sort of the uh the societies that exist to prevent cruelty to animals and children and that kind of thing, right? Those aren't state-funded either in the UK. Can you think of other examples of mutual aid

that people might have sort of not realised are entirely driven by society and not the state? Well, I suppose, I mean, the best, or one of the best examples recently in the US context is the establishment of the Common Ground Collective after Hurricane Katrina. So the aid that first went into the people who were stricken by by groups of people who thought that they could offer medical support or set up systems of, you know, or help set up systems of basic supply and rescue. And that's exactly what happened.

And the Common Ground Collective was established as a result of it. I mean, you find this sort of thing. I mean, it's fairly usual in times of, you know, sudden emergency and crisis that actually the people who do the hands-on work of actually taking people off, you know, the roofs of flooded houses and all the rest of it, these are local people, typically. They're not the agencies who often, you know, take a lot of time to get there. I mean, the other examples, I think, in the American context, again, which are often rooted around church groups, but certainly a lot of Black people's organisations, which, you know, who couldn't, you you know where they couldn't access uh support services yes set up mutual aid societies because that was the if you like the only alternative that they

would have in order to provide um you know sort of uh clubs for their kids and um breakfast clubs and uh any kind of welfare at all uh that that was the that was the root of it. The other example, I mean, Kropotkin looks at, I mean, these are 19th century example, which is sort of something that's later absorbed by the state, the insurance arrangements that were made by miners to look after those who were injured down the mines and their families in the event of their death. So, you know, they were setting up their own systems of contribution to ensure that those families would be provided for if the worst came to the worst. And, you know, eventually this gets taken up by the state and it's sold back to you

as national insurance. Eventually this gets taken up by the state and it's sold back to you as national insurance. But these systems are established essentially by local people for their own benefits. Yeah. Perhaps we ought to talk about that because there's a lot of these spontaneous societal things, especially in the UK, that are co-opted by the state and then sold back to us and then gradually stripped away of the very essence of what they're supposed to be right the national health service being another example um can you talk about the danger of that kind of state maybe danger is the wrong word but there can be a state capture of mutual aid efforts which can sometimes one might argue always like strip them of the essence of what they are is that fair to say well it certainly

changes this well i mean so so state welfare changes the relationships that that people have uh yeah to those institutions and and uh so in one sense it's it alleviates the burden of of running those institutions but in the on the other hand it it does two things i think one is that it uh it tends to encourage the idea that um looking after each other is somebody else's responsibility yes so actually it diminishes or it disincentivizes the sort of the um that that uh stimulus to to help each other directly so mutual aid is a kind of direct action if you like uh whereas you know once we give these these processes over to the state then actually we start to to see people in different in different ways so we do start to

get the language of scrounging uh or of you know, idleness, deserving, undeserving, poor, all of those things come from the idea that we're paying into an institution and not necessarily being guaranteed that we're getting value for money. So we start to see the institution slightly differently. And I think the other thing is that the, I mean, the worry, I guess, of that sort of co-optation is that it conceals the other things that the state does. So welfare is the last thing, if you like, that states assume as a responsibility. And it provides a gloss, if you like, on the law and order function that the state serves, and somehow sort of makes the state look a bit friendlier than perhaps we should think it is.

I suppose the term that was used in the British context in the immediate post-war period was not the welfare state, it was the warfare state, because the idea was that the introduction of welfare, which starts really after the Second World War, concealed the violence that the state was otherwise perpetuating elsewhere. Yeah, I think that's something we should consider very strongly when we're looking at these things. I think it also strips the person-to-person aspect of mutual aid from mutual aid. Certainly the most common mutual aid responses I've been part of are to health crises and then along the border. And part of what makes that very meaningful is people saying, this is a line between two states, but it's not a line between two people or two communities. And you are welcome because I am of this community and I want you to come here, which you do not get when there's a man in green combat pants throwing MREs from the back of a pickup truck.

That doesn't... That's right. But equally, I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, that's, that's kind of what I was trying to get at that, you know, once you have a, uh, once you have state welfare, you have concepts of, of access through citizenship and that reinforces the idea that there's a, there's a right of access and then there's a, um, uh, there's an exclusion that necessarily follows from that. And so the relationship becomes much more transactional rather than, which is the way that the mutual aid is couched in the anarchist lexicon.

It's driven by altruism and giving without the expectation of reward. Yes, yeah, I think that's very important. It doesn't imply a power or an expectation of sort of reciprocity. I forget exactly where I read this. I'm terrible at these things. But I guess you don't do it in a selfish sense, but it benefits you as well as the person

you are giving to. Because those people are part of your community. Is that fair? And you shouldn't be complete if people are suffering right next to you? Yeah, so I suppose there's an argument to say that, I mean, that comes from the notion of recasting what it is to be an individual. So, you know, your personal enrichment actually relies on the relationships that you can cultivate with other people. So, you know, the quality of those relationships is actually something that, of course, benefits you.

But I think the, I mean, one of the things, Kropotkin tells this story about um a child drowning in a river yeah and he imagines three people standing on the riverbank one of them's a religious believer um the second one is he calls an ordinary bourgeois a utilitarian and the third one he doesn't describe at all and he says you know what what happens when they see this child in the river? And he says, well, the religious person is wondering, you know, I should go and save the child because I'll reap my reward in heaven. And the utilitarian is thinking, you know, if I save this child, then I'm going to feel really good about myself. And so therefore I should do it. And while they're sort of going through that process of reasoning, the third person has just jumped in and saved the child

and that's mutual aid yeah yes i think that's very good yeah it comes from yeah it does it doesn't need to be like overly theorized i suppose yeah and it really doesn't like i've never i think the construction of mutual aid is important because it allows us to join the dots across the world and across time and and to see the relationship with the state. But it doesn't need, you don't need to have read Kropotkin to like, I know a big, it sprung up here a lot in the pandemic too, right? Like free shops and certainly for older people or people who are immunocompromised. I remember breaking thousands of loaves of bread from a pizza shop down the street wasn't able to open so they would bring me flour and I would make bread and we would take it to people and things like that were very

spontaneous and didn't particularly need like theorizing in terms of kropotkin but sadly they sort of we lost a lot of that with the you know with the reduction in in the severity of the pandemic I guess and I think it's important to remember that that was a natural response and one that we should cultivate. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I mean, you know, I mean, there were all sorts of things that were going on here. I mean, there were people who were sewing up scrubs for health workers, delivering lunches to health workers, you know, as well as just, you know, the checking on the neighbours, making sure that people were okay. you know, as well as just, you know, the checking on the neighbours, making sure that people were okay. So, yeah, I mean, it took, you know, multiple different forms. And, yeah, I mean,

it is difficult because, you know, once real life, as it were, sort of returned and the lockdowns were relaxed, you know, people have all kinds of other demands on their time. And again, we sort of then get used to thinking that, you know, somebody else is going to pick up the pieces now. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that that's part of that lockdown nostalgia, which is bizarrely already occurring three years down the line, where people look back and think, oh, well, it wasn't that bad.

And obviously thousands of people died that we shouldn't overlook that but if part of what people are looking back on is that sense of community which i think so many of us lack the alienation is very real for a lot of us and so those mutual aid groups or whatsapp groups and things gave people a real sense of belonging i think that's the same a lot of people felt that way in 2020 for obviously there were there was an uprising in the united states which gave people a sense of purpose which maybe they they're not feeling anymore hey guys i'm kate max you might know me from my popular online series the running interview show where i run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about.

It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me as the fire and dare enter? Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonoro. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters, to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America

since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley

into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google Search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge

and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

Check out betteroffline.com. If people are interested in, I guess, there's learning and there's doing, and they can be distinct, or they can be done at the same time, and we can learn by doing. Where would people start if they wanted to start their reading? Are there texts that you'd recommend that are not the size of a breeze block that people might find approachable?

Well, you can get, I mean, yeah, I mean, Kropotkin's book Mutual Aid is quite long. I mean, it's the last two chapters, really, that are the ones to read, and that's freely available online. I mean, it's a very 19th century kind of argument. I mean, the other one that I really like is Cindy Milstein's Anarchism and Its Aspirations, and that's short. very accessible. And she has this discussion of mutual aid where she links it to what she calls the ethical compass. And I think that speaks really nicely to the, you know, the principles and the sentiments, if you like, of mutual aid, that it is this kind of thick relationship that people cultivate, but not necessarily with a view to living in sort of permanently in in uh in community with each other but actually to to uh change the dynamics of the of the kind of cities we live in and uh the the detachments that that we we not only have but also sometimes kind of value uh we don't

necessarily want to live in each other's pockets, but actually that doesn't mean to say that we can't practice mutual aid with each other. Yeah, I think that'd be a great place for people to start. If they want to read a tiny bio of Kropotkin, Dog Section Press has an excellent, I'm a big fan of their great anarchist book. I think it's very approachable for tech. Yeah, they're also available online. Yes, they are. And they're great anarchist book, I think it's very approachable for. Yeah. They're also they're also available online.

Yes, they are. Yeah. And they're illustrated. Yes, they're very beautifully illustrated. It's been a good one for me to assign to students and have them approach anarchism from a non prejudice perspective, I suppose, which is which can be hard. Like, I always remember coming to the US for the first time when I was 21 and like I don't think I presented in a way that was particularly affable to to the transport security administration but uh I what are you doing here I'm a PhD student what

are you studying political violence and the anarchist unions I was immediately sent to the little room that you go to. I had some more questions to answer, but I think it's really important to present anarchism. I think through the lens of me, because I think so often it's viewed through the lens of like a predilection for chaos and violence, which is the opposite of what you're doing when you're giving someone a blanket or something like it's yeah um

and so i think if people listening will at least be familiar with the concept of anarchism mutual aid and not see it in that prejudicial way but i think if we can present it to other people you know you're doing anarchism everyone was doing it at the start of the pandemic when they were sewing masks like you say or homebrewing hand sanitizer. Yeah, and I think that's really important, actually, to the argument that mutual aid is for everyone. So, you know, anarchists are not trying to change people's heads or get them to think in particular ways when they talk about mutual aid. What they're doing is tapping into a propensity that exists

within all of us. And what anarchists are saying is that if you push organizations in particular directions, then actually you've got a better way or a better means of a better sort of environment within which you can sustain those practices. But mutual aid itself is not about being an anarchist. It's about being a human being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder, so people want to sort of build ways of taking care of each other without the state where they are.

Maybe they can see a problem, right, that hasn't been addressed by the state, like one of those holes that you spoke about, or a problem that the state is addressing uh inadequately or in an undesirable way how would they go about like do you have advice people looking to start it can be a especially if you're not on social media which i know we've had people email about like i'm not on facebook or twitter and how do i organize mutual aid so do you have any suggestions for that yeah so i mean there are i mean there are normally sort of in in any i mean certainly where i live which is a small market town i mean there is a community center

there are i mean there are churches too but i mean there is a sort of a local civic center if you like which has all kinds of uh adverts for for local groups and activities there's a i mean we're a town of sanctuary so uh we're one of the places that migrants are sent to in order to register. And the people who are involved in the town of sanctuary, they meet them, greet them, try and give them information that's useful to them. They run English language classes. They try and get the kids into swimming pools. I mean, there are all sorts of activities that they're doing. So I think it's a matter of sort of seeing what's there

and then sort of try. I mean, often I think people don't realise the skills they have. So, for example, if they speak more than one language, it's often really helpful to people who are arriving in a foreign land or a land that they're not speakers of the native language to help translate, to share information, a foreign land or a land that they don't, they're not speakers of the native language, you know, to help translate, to share information, just to point people in the direction where they can get help from other agencies. So I don't think, I mean, it seems to me that, you know, mutual aid

is not necessarily trying to sort of say, you're not going to enable people to access support services that are provided. I mean, even if they're paltry, services provided by the state, what you're trying to do is to meet people's needs. And there are existing groups and associations which will enable you to do that. I mean, you could go, if you live at the seaside, you could go down to your local lifeboat association and see if they need a volunteer to run the office you know there are that these are the sorts of things things that keep these institutions running um that's the kind of thing that you can do yeah i think that's a very good uh very good suggestion for people and it's just

we don't we don't need to yet be like turn our noses up at support for the state where what little is available we should avail ourselves and other people who need it and empower other people to get to yep yep absolutely um and and certainly we can't we can't act as if the state doesn't exist at a time when it does it's powerful and it can hurt vulnerable people yeah i think this is there anything else you'd like to say before we finish up on the topic of mutual aid um no i think we've covered um yeah we i think we've sort of covered it. I mean, I just, I guess it's, you know, mutual aid is, the important thing for me is that mutual aid is an easy thing and it can build and that's the, and it can be sustained.

That's the joy of it. And I think that's the brilliant thing about the example of the Lifeboat Association. Yeah. We can set up all kinds of things and run them. We don't need to be told to do it. We don't need to be told how to do it. Yeah.

I remember one of the things that always gives me a little spark of joy for such a venerable British institution with Royal in its name is that they celebrate Kropotkin's birthday, apparently. Oh, really? Yeah. Certainly they'll post on all their social media pictures of Kropotkin's birthday apparently and really yeah exactly they'll post on all their social media like pictures of kropotkin and like a little birthday cake and uh like these celebrations which uh yeah i think people should you know take a little moment of joy to celebrate these things that we've already achieved and and i guess trying to get better is there is there

anywhere people um can find you on the internet i don't know if you have social media or website. I'm not on social media, but I'm in easily. You can find me at the university, at Loughborough University. It's L-O-U-G-H-B-O-R-O-G-H. It's one some of my colleagues have struggled with. Yeah, it's not easy.

Yeah, so that's the easiest place to find me. And my contact information is there. And if anyone wants to write to me, then I'm happy to write back. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Pleasure. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com,

or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey, guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys,

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