It Could Happen Here - The Union Makes Us Strong, Part 2

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

In part 2 of our interview with John Hieronymus, we discuss how to organize a union, the power of collective action, and the importance of anti-racism and feminism in the union movement. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the 2020 George Floyd uprising, you know, in Minneapolis,

there were nurses, union nurses, who walked out the door to support, you know, people who were, uh, basically, uh, having an insurrection against like, you know, police violence in, in Minneapolis. Uh, when the, when the 2020 COVID pandemic hit off 2020 was year of everything going off. Yeah. Nurses, nurses were going out and confronting, uh, union nurses were going out and confronting anti-mask protesters.

Like I was literally getting screamed at by like some Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that said, nurses are dying. Go home with like 20 other union nurses. And we were the only people out there who are like together who are, uh, you know immediately impacted by this stuff and um and i think it made a difference like i think it's important and so i think that um and there's an idea called social unionism so if you get to the point where you're building a union and you're making progress and you get to that point where you have a union

always be advocating for to the extent that you can that your union is engaged in the kind of um like connecting with your community around your workplace figuring out the things that are impacting people's lives outside of unions because i think that's another thing that um for a long time unions just ignored or let atrophy because they didn't think it was their problem anymore was you know mutual aid helped build the labor movement yeah you know workers would get would literally like in west virginia and may twan uh they had uh company police throwing people out of their apartments um who are on on strike and were, you know, all of a sudden 2000 of your fellow workers showing up and throwing the police out of town and putting people's, you know,

belongings back in their house. Or, you know, and I believe we're getting back to that point where, you know, teachers went on strike in West Virginia and the union and the teachers did everything they could to support their students while they were out because like i think there's this idea that a lot of union workers at this point are you know everyone is like you know the american workforce is so desperate and so and they've just been pushed around so much that you know there was this idea for a time like in wisconsin what was that 2014 or what was the scott walker wisconsin uprising 2011 wasn't it i think it was like right around occupy it was around there and

like there was this idea that's like oh you're a nurse oh you're a teacher like you should just be happy that your job has some kind of meaning to it. Right. And it was a lot of like weird discourse around in the media and about like how dare these people think that they deserve anything. how can you like as a nurse how can i take care of my patients safely when i'm constantly having um like more and more work put on me right and that that immediately affects the people that i'm taking care of so that when when we went on strike in 2019 it was around our safe staffing um and if i've seen management make decisions about staffing that kill people, and I've seen management make decisions that lead to my coworkers getting injured.

I management made decisions that led to me getting COVID and messed me up for a year. And so when people in these kind of care worker roles which i think has become a more prominent part of the u.s economy yeah um as people are getting older and they need more like care work home care workers nursing home workers uh hospital workers um parents don't can't rely on family the way they used to to help take care of kids school has become like this really important like uh institution for you know working class survival um that you can't do those jobs as a worker if you don't have the resources so like our our children were at the chicago public schools and they're that you know the chicago teachers, which was taken over by the rank and file. Um, educators core might be messing up but it's called core they went out on strike in 2015 and as a you know as this is before my kids were old enough to

be in those schools i was out there still taking them coffee and donuts right because i knew that they were in there because things sucked. By the time my kids were old enough in 2019 for it to be a big thing, the teachers went on strike in Chicago, it had gotten so, it's so bad that Chicago teachers are like Chicago public schools have the the lowest number of staff to students of any school system in Illinois. It's not even like half, right? And it's funny because the state had been constantly trying to erode the power of the union.

They're making Chicago teachers pay for their own retirement, basically, in a way that no other workers have to. They were making it so that Chicago teachers could only go on strike if over 75% of, uh, of the teacher voted to go on strike. Um, so when, so what that does is there's kind of like a, a little bit of a flip where, oh, we have to make 75% of, you know, people agree to go on strike. Well, let's organize so much that we get 90 over 90% of, people agree to go on strike. Well, let's organize so much that we

get 90 over 90% of people to agree to go on strike. And then how powerful is our strike? Are our strikes going to be? We're literally like, uh, one of the things I do as a steward is I connect with all the different unions in at university of Chicago, where I work through a labor council. We were going as, you know, university workers to all the picket lines of the public schools around our neighborhood. And we're bringing out coffee, bringing out donuts, talking to people, Hey, I'm a nurse. We were on strike like six or like two or three months ago. What do you all need connecting with people? And then, and then like at one point when the teachers were like, we're not getting what we want. And this is Lori Lightfoot is trash. We helped organize this mass march where multiple marches of teachers and school workers. And we're all out in the streets dodging cop cars until we had this big convergence. And it was really beautiful.

Like we had like multiple people with like multiple banners and different columns, each one saying, we will win going through the streets of our neighborhood and like messing up like the commercial traffic area and in our very bougie neighborhood. But that was happening all over the city. And it's just like, when you see that happen, it's because we're literally in the support of the community for those strikes was so overwhelming because people knew that it's like these people aren't i mean like first off it's a hard job

there's no reason why anyone doing that job shouldn't have like a materially comfortable life yeah that's how stressful it is and how much work they do awful um and i know i really like i really need to emphasize this enough as people there's like this whole thing is like oh teachers don't work over the summer like oh but no no like their job sucks they have to they have to deal with these kids all day and the other thing is like you know the part of it that you don't see is they have to do all the lesson plans they have to grade all the stuff they have to do all the stuff like after the school day ends they have to do all this yep honestly all the time this job is awful it is extremely hard and like they don't that yeah the conditions are extremely bad i'll never forget when i i'll never forget when i ran into

my seventh grade science teacher on the summer uh she was waiting tables at a local restaurant you know i mean and so i think that there's this assumption that like uh that especially care workers get some sort of you can't you know you can't cash in fulfillment right or prestige or whatever that doesn't pay the rent uh that doesn't put you know groceries on your table um that sort of thing and so you know i think we're beginning to see this thing resurgence and it started with teachers. And I know for, and teachers and nurses have been out fighting like hell for the past like five years. Yeah.

And it's beginning to kind of like spark other kinds of organizing outside of, uh, the care work areas. And a lot of this stuff was, it's funny how it was kind of like, uh, predicted by occupy and like revolt of the caring classes. Someone who wrote a really cool book that just came out, David Graeber, who was talking about, like, why is it that we are seeing all these people who are out in the streets, like during occupy who are like social workers and nurses and teachers and all this stuff, there's something going on here. And I think that, so you'll see places where organizing conditions are easier because the pressure on especially care workers right now is immense in a way that it isn't as immense other places. But look at for those, like when you're thinking about unions and whether to do build a

union at your workplace or do some sort of collective organizing in your workplace do you have the dynamics where you guys are can the boss shut down your uh your your workplace and move it like 10 miles without completely destroying their like like their business. Right. And so, you know, we've seen strikes happen in grocery stores in Massachusetts. There was a really like a pretty well publicized grocery worker strike. And apparently there was like internal documents got released to like shareholders about how that was like one of the most, like it was like for a month in the winter or three weeks and they said they lost like 75 percent of customers refused to cross the picket line

hell yeah i mean and i think we're thinking it's like getting to the point where you're can go on strike it's a lot it's a process and it takes a lot of work and i think that people underestimate what that looks like yeah hence we see hashtag general strike things all the time um but like when you get there i think that we're at a point now where people have a lot more sympathy for workers and workers have become more visible in a way that they weren't before like the essential workers over the past year and a half have been the only workers that sometimes people will see. Right. So you'll see things also like you have, you know, Amazonians United, which is a union that's organizing, but they're trying to organize something called a solidarity union. So they're not, you know, at least the ones here in Chicago.

And I think some of them in New York and this may be changing. Things are always shifting around, but for a long, for a while through like pandemic, they were organizing on a, like in contrast to the Bessemer, uh, Amazon campaign. Sorry. There was a, a business union tried to organize a, uh, a union in alabama in besmar alabama at an amazon warehouse and there was a lot of like media attention to that democratic politicians were paying attention to it you know joe biden said i support the right of workers to choose to have the choice to have a union yeah some really milk toast bullshit yeah and a lot of celebrities showing up. And what wasn't happening was you weren't seeing a lot of evidence that the workers themselves were very excited about the union. And it turned out that that campaign failed.

Whereas workers at Amazonians United appear like in Chicago. And granted, it's a very different organizing environment in Illinois than than it is in alabama um they haven't been focusing on getting contract they've been focusing on getting work changes like they're like we want to have water like we need water breaks and so they would they have these stand-up meetings at the beginning of every shift and they had coordinated where you have you know 30 of your co- all say, we're not starting until we get water. And then management panics because they're not used to that kind of demand. They're used to, we're going to have a campaign, then we can, you know, mess with the votes and that sort of thing and make people afraid. Collective action overcomes fear, right?

Collective action overcomes fear, right? Yeah. So when you have collective action, even through a regular, like a more regular conventional union campaign, those collective actions are what lead to successful unions. So, you know, they'd say we aren't starting the shift until we get water. And then all of a sudden, a manager disappears and then comes back with pallets full of water. Right. And all of a sudden people are like, I'm going to have a drink of water before I start like all together. And then they go off and do their thing. And it's like, you know, things like that build the power of the union to the point where they shut down that warehouse. But then Amazonians United popped up in the three new warehouses that they set up in Chicago.

amazonians united popped up in the three new warehouses that they set up in chicago so it's like when you build that kind of collective power and people feel like this is how you get things then it's hard to repress right it's one thing we're like oh we lost an election why did we even bother it's another thing we're like no we won like all this like this that and the other thing like we got you know like our regular schedules fixed we got like water on our shifts we got this you know that's what gets people into the mindset that they can change things i think this is the thing that a lot of people don't get it's it's like the difficult part isn't getting people to agree that things are fucked up at your workplace most people understand that things are fucked up their workplace difficult part isn't saying that like well this is a solution right the difficult part is getting

people to understand that collective action is the only way to solve the problems right even within unionized workplaces getting your co-workers to understand that if we don't do this as a collective we will fail and so like when there was a like the first successful private uh hospital union drive in north carolina popped off early 2020 um throughout that campaign there were constantly like demonstrations of collective power we We're going to do a vigil. How many people are going to show up to the vigil? We're going to all walk around with stickers saying like safe staffing, safe lives, or like, you know, um, care patients over profits,

that sort of stuff. And building that kind of collective power together is what gets you, um, it's what gets you a successful, like that's what builds a union fundamentally union is um there's the legal thing and then there's the real thing and the real thing is only as powerful as people are willing to fight for and build that kind of collective power together when nurses were on strike and i talk a lot about nurses because i know a lot about nurses but like you know or like you know in um in iowa when the uh john deere strike happened people were out on those picket lines and people were ready to get hit by cars to like stop scabs from coming by crossing the picket line

and if you're not willing to do that kind of stuff and i'm not saying that you need to put your body on the line for things but you do need to be willing to draw outside the lines right there's the law and then there's what you can get people to do. And you will be surprised when people start moving, they move fast and they get really riled up. Yeah. Like this, fuck this, this is what we're going to do. And sometimes unions try and like bottle that energy up. Um, or, you know, if you're in a good union, you use that energy to fix things.

So I think that's kind of where I land on all this stuff. It's like, be aware of like the pitfalls of what organizing at work means. You, everyone has a right to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you get fired for like, uh, for organizing, you can fight that, that sort of thing. Yeah, it is. It's federally protected. Like it's, it, this is, that, that sort of thing. Yeah, it's federally protected. This is a federal government thing. This is what we got

in exchange for everything else. This is what we got in exchange for putting our guns down is that the actual feds will be like, no, you can't do this. I mean, and sometimes that doesn't selectively

but cold consolation yeah and it doesn't always work but and i guess this is the other thing is there are people who are like this is how we're gonna you know we're gonna win socialism as everyone's in a union and i guess like my take on it, is this is how we build all the networks and get the skills and all the necessary things to be prepared to do bigger stuff down the road. So when we, when workers are talking to each other across, like, you know, at Chicago, when Chicago teachers went on strike, they didn't just go on strike as the teachers they also talked to the they lined up their strike to go out as same as education like the school workers who are in seiu and they went out at the same time um in order to improve the power of the strike because the more workers who are out yeah less able the bosses are to like like to undermine the boss either with people scabbing on each other or whatever. And I think it's just like, and like,

that's the point of our labor council is like when like the grad workers at university of Chicago go on strike, we got teachers out or we got, uh, well, there were teachers from CTU out on those picket lines. There were nurses from NNU on those picket lines and we were doing everything we could to communicate to each other. Because like in my work, it doesn't matter that I'm a nurse and you're a secretary. We have the same boss. We have the same problems a lot of the times.

And so I think people want to do the thing, which is to all have the glorious general strike that like overthrows capitalism or whatever, or fixes all the problems at your work. But, you know, starting everyone forgets all the necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And sometimes it means just get the union in the door in the first place, because like at a campaign I was a part of here in Chicago, where my university Chicago bought a non-union hospital that was out in the community just getting in there they were able to expose like basically an entire hospital-wide scheme of like race uh racist like practices around raises and compensation and that is like that

first step and then fixing that right because you don't want to have like white nurses making 20% more than black nurses and black nurses making 20% more than like the immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses. Get everyone on the same page so that you're fighting together instead of fighting each other. you take and then and then you start reaching out to people on other uh other workplaces or other work areas and build that kind of militancy across unions so that you can support each other so like maybe a secondary strike is illegal right now but that doesn't mean that you don't have you know teamsters who won't cross the picket line right you know how do you go out and make it or you can build that solidarity so that like in buffalo when the um the cwa nurses went on strike and they won pretty impressive things around staffing ratios they literally had other unions going out and picketing board members of their hospital businesses hell yeah and like getting really really like aggressive with that sort of stuff. So I think that, I think that people need to just big takeaway is it's the biggest barrier to any of this stuff

is just getting people to believe that collective action is possible and they can get you wins. And then making sure that you take your time and be patient and understand that there's going to be losses but in the grand scheme of things don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when it's actually a victory for like a victory like for a real like a defeat and um and talk with people like that's what they hate that like bosses hate it when we're talking with each other and talk to people you're not comfortable with that's the that's the other thing is that people are very nervous to talk to people like it's always funny when you run into people who are rah-rah like unions rah-rah like socialism

yada yada yada and they don't talk to their co-workers right and your co-workers are the people you're going to be around for maybe some years and that's where you spend a huge chunk of them yada yada yada and they don't talk to their co-workers right and your co-workers are the people you're going to be around for maybe some years and that's where you spend a huge chunk of your time and like but you don't know what's going on and you're like oh they're all hostile they don't want to know anything they don't want to do anything funny thing is is that oftentimes the most people who seem very skeptical and anti-union can be flipped sometimes those people become the best like the most dedicated people to the union it also means that you're going to talk to people you disagree with like yeah there was a trump dude who was on like the bargaining committee

for like our last strike he fucking loved that thing he was like we're going on strike but you know it's also a union full of black women and he shut the fuck up when you know it wasn't like you know being racist and shit but you know you're gonna be with those people and part of the thing is is that it's about how we're all moving together rather than making sure everyone is on the same page for every single thing because the biggest thing is the collective action yeah and building that collective power and hopefully the collective power is hopefully the collective power outweighs it's if you stand firm on principles like anti-racism yeah and fighting against discrimination and misogyny that sort of thing it actually builds the power of the union yep i think that's the other thing is that people

are like oh i don't you know like you know working class people are all racist or reactionary or whatever so i'm gonna do that that's'm going to get, that's my end. And it's like, I think there are a lot of people who like, they really don't like, you know, they don't like being around loud, racist assholes or people who, you know, say slurs. Like, especially if it like, I mean, you can make the arguments like this is, that's their way of dividing us. Our goal is to be together. That's their way of dividing us. Our goal is to be together. And historically speaking, the one thing that's done the most to fight working class racism is union organizing.

Yep. And I think also, in terms of building something that's actually durable and powerful, on top of just the division i mean you know even when it comes to stuff like transphobia right it's like you know if if you can convince people to fight like first like fight for the person next to them right you know i mean this is this was a thing that people like said a lot during the uh during the the bernie campaign but it was like you know if if people like yeah like if you can get someone to fight like fight for the person next to you in a concrete way in the workplace in a way that's actually real for something that doesn't directly affect them you the you know a a it's just like like the amount of power that you've built there is incredible and then b also

okay i forgot where i was going with that tano please cut that hold on hold on i can kind of build on yeah let me just say this my personal experience is that queer women run the labor movement yep and that like and that if you think that people who have been bullied from the day they like step into like a uh into a kindergarten aren't going to be the people who have been bullied from the day they like step into like a, into a kindergarten, aren't going to be the people who are most equipped to fight bullshit, bullying from a boss or injustice or bullshit. You are fucking like, like just get the fuck out because you haven't been in a union and you don't know what,

you know what I mean? You like the, like people unions are at their best when they incorporate you know all like when they are fighting for everybody because what a boss can get away with with the weakest person is what they'll do to all of us if they get the chance yeah and so i think that there's this idea that's like oh we're going to set it we're not going to we're going to ignore this or that sort of thing and And it's like, you know, that's when people like, you know,

people will turn away from unions if they feel like they're not being listened to or taken seriously. You don't know what people's like identities are just because you see how they look. And so I think that it's real important for us to understand that if we're going to fight these fights,

we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody. Yep. And that the working class is a giant multiracial conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that the more marginally your identity is, the more useful having a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said, like racist, uh, racist compensation practices, there was no way that was going to get fixed like it wasn't even uncovered people didn't understand that it was happening until like the union got in doesn't mean there aren't other ways to fix things but it's one of the one of the most powerful ways to fix things

welcome i'm danny thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Welcome. I'm Danny Trejo. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think that people just like don't understand because they don't have experience because they don't have an experience. They end up with,

they end up with misconceptions about what they're going to get into and then they get disappointed. And I think the reality, I mean, I think that the reality is not as bad as sometimes it seems, but also you got to go into all this shit with open eyes. Yeah. And I think that the reality is not as bad as sometimes it seems but also you got to go into all this shit with open eyes yeah and i think that there's and that's the other thing one of the fun things maybe this will make it in the podcast i don't know but um one of the fun things is always like hanging out with like if you like every workplace has like its lefties

just about and like hanging out with the lefties who just can't get their brains wrapped around the shit that you need to have a union i think that there's like this idea that's like oh i'm gonna talk to my friend they're like they're like they say they're a communist and then that all those people do not always but they're don't they're sitting there it's like talking a bunch of shit about like uh the union they're a bunch of sell, this or that. And it's like, literally, it's the only thing you're going to do to get your to fix the problem. And you're just like, we're just trying to get this problem fixed. Can we just set aside

what you think needs to happen that you guys talked about at your Spartacus League meeting or whatever? Like, oh, this isn't a real strike. We're not going out for three months. And it's like, you know, it's like the sort of thing where um sometimes or oftentimes and i think it's because a lot of people kind of pick up their politics almost like an aesthetic as opposed to like a

thing that like is about like fixing the problems in their lives and and sometimes even i'm like you know like this is a problem that i face is like like shit is real like for a lot of people and you can sit there and talk about this or that and like you're you know you think that things you know you've got this perfect ideal vision of what things should be and then you've got this kind of imperfect thing in front of you that is even though it's imperfect it's basically what you've got and so it's like you've got this kind of imperfect thing in front of you that is, even though it's imperfect, it's basically what you've got. And so it's like, you've got to kind of, you've got to work with what you have and fix it up and make it the best that you think it can be. But also understand because it's an organization full of people that it's not going to be perfect every time. And yeah, maybe your union is going to do some liberal shit, you know, and you're going to, and that's going to annoy you. But you know, like, um, those people are still going to show up on the picket line. If you're like, if you're organized and you're good and like, you know, that's, it's not the end of the world that your union isn't perfect. Um, but you've got to do everything you can to do your best to make it better because if you don't, then, then liberals

will do whatever they're going to do or conservatives will do whatever they're going to do and then they'll like fritter away this thing like you can destroy a union if you aren't engaged like a union can be destroyed by people who think that you know they're just like i just want to get my raise and like go home and like you know if people's main concern is like their health care or like you know that hour of prep time before they start their shift or whatever you know start their school day or whatever um you know a union can like dissolve out from underneath you and people are like why is no one showing up to this thing it's because you didn't talk to people and find out what it is i think that's the other thing it's like listen like there's this idea that you're gonna get up and give a big speech and get everyone

really excited about your about like being in a union but the main thing is listening to people yeah and listening to people who are critics you know your co-workers who have complaints aren't like people that you should ignore those are people you need to listen to because those are people who they've got i mean everyone's got legitimate problems with how you know work is happening and like just because someone's like you know union is like you know trash like then find out why they think it's trash and then try and be like i want to try and fix that what can we do to fix it together that sort of i remember when i was working so i worked at uh like maintenance at a county facility uh for a while and you know so i i was like a like i was like i was like a summer hire basically and so we we

weren't in the union but like everyone we were working for was in the union and they all like you know these are old ex-construction worker guys and you know like they're in the union but like i remember that we share these conversations that were like, okay, so we have a union meeting this week. Does like, do you want to be the person who tries to talk about raising wages? And it was like, everyone was just like, no. And, you know, people, you know, like these guys are like very right wing and they were just sort of like pissed off all the time. But it was interesting because the thing they were pissed off all the time about was that like you know their union didn't do anything like their union like they they're like they were they were basically constantly annoyed

that like the union didn't like the the union wasn't fighting for pay raises the union wasn't sort of fighting and and i i think that was you know an example of how this stuff sort of just fails if if people aren't like people don't feel like they can actually do something like even i mean itself i mean and they call it service unionism there's this idea that like um or like a like that a business union's job is to kind of serve you and you kind of like uh they do all the work like One of the complaints that some people who are not big fans of our union or hospital is that, oh, well, other unions have lawyers negotiate the contract for you. And when we negotiate, we have a room full of nurses who are doing the negotiations. And the goal is to have it be as transparent as possible. And like the idea that you're going to hand over negotiations to a lawyer and

somehow get a better deal than, than a room full of, of the actual workers. And it's funny because we have our bargaining team and then like, we'll periodically do something called open bargaining because it's a thing that bosses hate. It's like, they want to make a deal like with a door shut right yeah yeah um but there's no reason why a union has to do that like you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining you can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel like your man it could

be because management behind closed doors will say all kinds of things and you know they'll they'll trash talk everyone involved and they'll you know and they will make absurd demands about you know it's like oh you're all gonna take a pay cut you know on this contract that sort of thing and they hate it they absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up to these things yep and so um i think that uh understanding that like i think there's this idea that like some people are big on like we have to be kind of like secretive to like get the best like deal and like we shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about what's going on because that's how, like, because then they'll figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience, my understanding is that the more transparent your union is,

the more involved people get and the more able people are, the more willing people are to put their time and energy into it. Because that's what it comes down to is like people have to like, everyone's working and busy and their life's life is hard and sucks yeah and so like do you have time to like dedicate to show up to like talk to like if you why would you go to a union meeting if when you raise the concern like we want higher wages and like the union like staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages because they're like, well, we're getting our union dues and like, what do,

what the fuck do we care? Right. That's like a huge problem. And the part of the thing is that those problems don't get solved if they, if they exist, because they, that definitely exists in some, in a lot of unions,

more unions than, than not. If the workers don't get organized together, like, right. than not um if the workers don't get organized together like right we just saw a an election within the teamsters international where uh uh the hafa uh i don't know jimmy hafa jr one of the hafa kids was like president of the union and was just like not doing a great job and um and like there was a rank and file like push to get that guy uh unelected you know and put it replaced with a rank and file worker who wants to put actual time and resources into organizing you know like there's nothing

sadder than a than like watching a union campaign fail because the union clearly is phoning it in like that's happened i've seen it happen not inside my union but in other unions and uh and i mean like at my workplace there's several unions and i've seen i've seen a failed campaign and it's like obvious like there's uh you know i'm not i don't co-sign everything that someone like jane mccavlery i think that's how you share mccavlery has to say she wrote like no shortcuts um i don't sign off on everything she has to say but she has some really insightful things it's like if you're not organizing to win like you'll fail and like you have to take this so seriously and that's where

like i'll say that like if you've got a choice between I'm going to put time into a political campaign versus a union campaign, you are going to get way more bang for your buck. You're going to get so much more experience. You're going to get a durable organization that's going to be around for years if you put that time into a union campaign. because like imagine uh winning an election right um except the politician you're running against is the incumbent and they can um basically drag every one of their constituents into like a meeting and tell them how awful you are all the time and lie and say whatever they want and then they can you know do all kinds of tricks to like, basically dismantle your campaign. So I guess like the thing that I would say is that like, if you, if you do it the right way and you actually win one of those campaigns, you're going to come out way ahead in terms of understanding, like you have to talk to people, you have to be super organized. You

have to know what people's issues are in their different bargaining units. Um, you have to find people like part of like successful campaigns campaigns I've been part of, literally going on a search to go find the people that need to be like signing cards and stuff. And you just have to be a very good listener and ready to talk and listen and hear what people have to say. And then turn that information into knowledge, knowledge and power um and um i think that uh if you pull it off you have done something substantially harder than say like winning a

school board election or something like that i mean it's it's it really is it's like taking like those kind of skills that you would use to win some sort of small municipal election. And it's exponentially more hard because the rules are just so tilted against you winning. So if you are serious about it, if you're serious about changing the world, if you can't... I think Murray Bookchin once said that if you can't run for a dog catcher you probably shouldn't be talking about revolution you know but i think that probably more you know more appropriate would be like if you can't win a union election you probably shouldn't be talking about revolution because even if you want to do all the things you need to have the ability the skills the ability to mediate conflict getting everyone on board to do the collective action that

like you would need to do to successfully kind of like carry out like you know it's one thing to have the the grand insurrection it's the other thing to carry it forward and keep carrying it to the point where you're over the line you've completely changed the world right yeah so and i think that and so i just think that like um and I think that similar things go with like, you know, tenant organizing, community organizing, there's various types of organizing that use a similar skills that you get in like a union campaign. politics and organization and skills that you would get from you know showing up for your local justice dem and you know like knocking on the doors of strangers you'll never you may never speak to again you know when you're talking with your co-workers those are your co-workers they're going to be there until you're you know you retire or you're fired yep or you quit so anyway that's i guess that's another good takeaway, I think, from all this. your recommendations for them you know how how do you start this process what does this look like

and what kinds of conversations uh should you be having with your co-workers yeah for sure so um i think one of the first things that i think a lot of people a lot of people don't understand is that there's an amount of risk and stuff to organizing and that you're like first off like you should be chill and like not like running around telling everyone you want a union because that's a great way to lose your job um i think the thing is is that you build relationships and find out what's happening like just like you know take from your experience and figure out what's like in uh uh, like, man, it really sucks. Like I got, like, I got screwed over on my vacation requests or like, I, you know, man, our raises were really shitty this year. And I heard like, you know, boss talking about like how much, like, uh, like they made so much money, that sort of thing. much money that sort of thing um so i think that it comes down to you have to be it's kind of like a combination of like like an investigative reporter and like someone who is just really

good at like talking to people and just kind of like understanding what's making them tick and understanding also that maybe you're not the person who's going to get everyone on board but that finding other people who ever like i think the big thing is like who's like the most respected person on like in your work area that sort of thing who like they know that the unit or they know the work area they've been there the longest they have like the most experience people look up to them they're the people who train other people that sort of thing those are the people who everyone looks to when it comes down to these sorts of things and you know just you don't have to be friends with everybody but like doing it's i think it's really good to just like to

be open to listening to everybody that you work with and finding out what it is that's really going on yes and so something i've noticed like in a lot of places that i've worked like yeah the bosses often don't really know what's going on either like they and i think that that's something i can give you if you understand how the process works and who is doing what and what people like need, that gives you like a big advantage over the bosses who just have no idea what's going on. Which I think. Yeah, I think it's very, it's very normal for bosses to really not know what's happening. And there's always someone who does like figuring out the people who really know how things work are like those are like the those are the

people who um you want to be talking with and figuring out like where they kind of stand on things and um you know i think like the first step is like just having good relationships and people trusting you. And, you know, you know, if, you know, like, I don't think everyone needs to be a superstar worker sort of thing to be a good union organizer, but like, they always say it's like people who have the most problems oftentimes are people that aren't, don't make great organizers because people don't see them as people to follow but um um but i think that it's important to just like talk with your to like just figure out what's going on first that's your first step figure out what's going

on what are the things i mean and you can come around together in uh you know and like and how do you get people outside of the workplace? So you talk like, how do you like, do you have like a group chat or signal chat or like a WhatsApp chat or Facebook group? And where do you just like start kind of like, and you know, be very careful, be careful about who's involved. And just kind of like low key, just like start talking with folks and identifying people who, who are outside of your work area who know people like sometimes it's you know you'll talk to people and they're like i don't want to talk about a union but you can be like do you know anyone who care who who has said anything about unions before and so talking to

people to find out who they know like these are all this kind of like crucial first steps like organizing and i think the thing is is that like there have been times where you'll have a non-union workplace where if the people in a particular area of a of like a of like a hospital or like a workplace whatever will do some collective thing that gets some sort of result so i think it's always like it's like let's get people to sign off on a petition about like, you know, like if 80% of your coworkers are unhappy with like raises or something like that, like the more people that are involved in those first steps, the more likely it is that it won't result in retaliation and like you'll end up getting some sort of victory. result in retaliation and like you'll end up getting some sort of victory um so i guess like the thing that i would say is just like be be ready for like people to look at greet you with skepticism because like it's it's hard it's a hard thing to do and um always just be finding out what is bothering people and then look at little things that you can do to kind of like flex power,

like to like collectively flex your power. And it can be as small as like everyone bringing up the same issue at like a work meeting. Right. Like if you, and it could be like, Hey, let's talk about this at this work meeting. This is, and if we all say something together, like, we're going to be fine, right? So, like, starting with those first steps, I think is the first, like, thing. Like, the first thing is know what's going on, build relationships, be a trustworthy person. Like, you can't be like the unit gossip or the work area gossip that, like, knows that's in everyone's business or stirring up stuff and be successful at this. But if you are, you know, if you're someone that people like trust or look to, or, you know, like a person that people are like, they help solve our problems. Those are the people who, I mean, you're going to be well set to begin to kind of take the steps on

that. And then, you know, as you kind of build those kind of like build that organization step-by-step no, no union, um, is going to, uh, invest the time in a union campaign. If it's just you and like two other people, like you need, like you need to get a room there always say like, well, if you get a room full of people together, I'm willing to talk to them. And that's kind of the thing. And, you know, zoom and stuff has actually made that a little bit easier.

Um, which in some ways can be a weakness because you end up with like, it's a lot less commitment to show up to a zoom meeting than it is to, um, to show up at like a bar or a place after work, um, or a church or wherever. It's like a good,

like a neutral, safe place that people feel like they can be honest with each other about what's going on. But at the same time, just like being the more, the more people you get on board with the thing, the more likely it is that it'll succeed. The more people you get on board with the thing, the more likely it is it'll succeed.

You'll attract support from like an actual union that is able to help you if you decide that that's how you want to do it. Or if that makes sense in a legal context. And so I just like always like start small, figure out the small things, be willing to do like collective action to get little small victories. And that's a great way to get started i think and then like really do like sleuthing and research like figure out how things actually work um that's like you know uh that was a problem with the best market campaign down in uh down in alabama with those amazon workers is they didn't know how many people worked at that uh facility and then all of a sudden they're like, oh yeah, we're going to include like an extra thousand people on this vote, you know, like six weeks out.

And, you know, like, I don't want to, I don't want to take a dump on the people who did that. But like, if you don't know that there's like another thousand people or you don't have like everyone on board, you're not going to succeed. So know everything you can as you're going in and do everything you can to find out things or make buddies with the friends or buddies of the people who are gonna you know know these things and you know and then support each other like it means showing up when like someone sometimes what we do during these campaigns is

someone will will have the contact for someone who's interested and then your job is to go and find that person where they work and talk with them and then talk with them while they talk with their co-workers or back up them while they're talking to their co-workers because they trust their their co-workers trust their co-worker you know you're a random stranger you know and then like don't be afraid to say i don't know but i'll find out right there's like this there's pressure, I think to like have all the answers to like whatever people's questions are. And I think that it's like, um, I think that it's like, uh, I think that it's important to be honest when you don't understand, but then do the

work of figuring out the answers for people. And I think people respect that. And, you know, a lot of people who are vocally against these sorts of things upfront, it's because they don't know. And if you, you know, you're like, no, we've got a right to do this or like, you know, the, you know, a management will say things like, our management will say things like, oh, you will, you know the hot the you know a management will say things like our management will say things like oh you will um you know the union will get in between our relationship with uh you know with you and us right and the point is is it like well the union is us we're the co we're the people doing it like everyone run you can't run a union if you don't have a bunch of people involved from the

workplace and you're just like and making sure sure that the people who are, um, those people who ended up being kind of like spokespersons for everyone else are people that folks trust and that have like a good like grasp of what everyone wants. And yeah. So yeah. And then like, you know, don't get bogged down in the legal shit. Like, you know, collective action really is like your most powerful tool. All the other grievances and that sort of stuff, it's important and you can't let it go. But it's also designed to grind people down.

So the more collective action you take, the more likely it is that you're going to be successful and keep people engaged and excited welcome i'm danny thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter nocturnal tales from the shadows presented by iheart and sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors

that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, going back to what you were saying earlier, this might wind up being last episode, depending on where this breaks down time-wise. But yeah, I think it's also, it's just, this is going to take time and a lot of work. And I think it's important, A, to understand going in that this is a long and difficult process. It's not going to happen overnight. And B, that it's a lot of work.

Like you have to, there's a lot of things that you have to do. There's a lot of sort of logistics. There's a lot of talking. There's a lot of work. Like you have to, there's, there's a lot of things that you have to do. There's a lot of sort of logistics. There's a lot of talking. There's a lot of like negotiating. There's a lot of sort of, I mean, just,

just even, I don't know, before anything gets off the ground, you have to spend enormous amounts of time and effort doing stuff. And that's, that's, that's, I guess just the reality of it.

So yeah, there's, there's no, there's, there's no, there's, there's, there's, there's no magic bullet. Like there's no sort. So yeah, there's no magic bullet. There's no sort of... There's no just one thing

you can do that magically makes a union appear. It's a bunch of people coming together and fighting for it for a long time. Yeah, I think that that's the main thing. It's a cliche that it's a marathon, not a sprint

um sometimes i hate when people say that shit but it's true like you you really do have like um you're in it for the long haul and a lot of times it's like you're you people are ready to do these things when they're like this is like i don't want you know it's one thing to pop up in a place and be there for like you know six months be like i need a union we need a union right no one you know that works at that place trusts you they don't know who you are yeah like they're not going to follow you to do anything or you know or take or you know follow your lead um it's the people who are like i'm'm going to be here. This is my, this is where I want to be. And you know, this is a, I want to be here for the next few years and think of it as like a long-term

investment in the quality of your life and the quality of life at your workplace. Because to win, you have to be sticking around, you know? And I think that's where it gets tough with people who are in like precarious types of employment yeah or different types of and that's where you have to start looking at alternate ways to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who does maybe you drive like uh for a ride share service or maybe you like do delivery or like you know um for an app or whatever you deliver for an app and i think the thing is is like that sort of thing because of how and you know these aren't like new forms

of work this is actually really old forms of work that are just like been like rebranded by tech bros who have decided it's like they're like they're like they're great geniuses like rebranding the kind of like precarious work that was really like prominent like throughout the 19th century and it's like so then what do you do is you come up with ways to organize people regardless of like oh like i'm you know i work for this like i work for lyft or i work for uber and it kind of switches back and forth like the thing is it's like that's when you start talking with, you know, ride share drivers across different like apps or whatever. And then you come up with a way to work collectively to, to change sorts of things. And sometimes that's, it's going to be, it's going

to be tough, you know? And that's when I kind of look at those, that sort of thing is like, this is where it's a learning experience and maybe I don't get everything I want, but I, you know, it's really important. I mean, it's like building these networks of people who care about like what their working conditions are like, and you can pull things off maybe unexpectedly that you didn't expect were going to be like the thing, you know, like you may start with something that looks like a union drive and then you end up with something, uh, that looks like very different. It could, you know, could go in all sorts of different directions. So, um, you know, there and look outside of the U S you know, there are countries where like in,

um, uh, I think that there have been some pretty successful delivery app, um, organized organizing in London.on um and you know i think that to a certain extent like formal extant u.s unions have not been very successful in organizing those workers because it doesn't it's hard to do from the extant business union model and so it's like uh it's one of those things where you know it used to be you know they would have like you know the fight would be instead of trying to get like workers or uh like a a contract at a particular like work site you'd set up a hiring hall like the iww would set up hiring halls um

and like you know for lumberjacks and that sort of thing and those workers are always precarious right but they would go try and set up so that like people would only take jobs out of the hiring hall and that's how they would control their like their work and i think that more unions need and part of this is like i would if there's any any union people out there who are in staff and that sort of thing, it's like, there needs to be a serious re-examination of how we do unions in this country. And I think a lot of people inside unions understand that, but no one has quite done it yet in a way that's effective. And I think that we really do need to kind of reevaluate that sort of stuff. So just, you know, as someone who's going into like a new sort of organizing campaign, just understand that like getting the union contract isn't necessarily the end goal. The end goal is to try and get your boss to do things differently so that you're not like miserable at

work. And that might look like a contract or it might look like a one-day app strike or something like that. You've got to figure out how it's going to work. In healthcare, there's this idea that there's the gold standard of the strike where you strike until we win and we're out for two or three months. Well, the problem is that there's an industry standard of the strike where you strike until we win and we're out for like, you know, like two or three months. Well,

the problem is is that there's a industry of scab nurses and healthcare workers where at any point they can bring in people to replace enough of you that a hospital can maintain operations. And unless you're super organized, like they were up in Buffalo with CWA, like and have a big network of people and you're ready to go to like, you know, board, like picket board members, houses and that sort of stuff. Um, those long-term strikes can end in defeat where you end up with, uh, you know, you're all replaced with scabs and, and it sucks and it's happened. And then you gotta, I guess you gotta learn from it.

You know, like we've, there was a famous strike in Minnesota with healthcare workers and they went out and they were out for months and months and there were people on, you know, going to the soup kitchen to feed their kids and stuff and they lost. Right. And so my union tends to do one day strikes, but instead of it just being at one hospital we organize multiple hospitals across the country so that it soaks up all the like the scat drives up right scabs and it really like that i think ideas like intermittent strikes were actually a really powerful tool back when you know back when it was the cio and it was like we're going to just stop working until you fix this problem um and that's why they made them illegal and it takes a lot lot of work to pull them off. But if you can pull them off, that could be an effective way. And if you're not in a union, maybe getting people down for a one day, like work

stoppage at your work, or even, you know, maybe it's like, we're not starting our shift, right? I've been in the room, I've been in the room where it's like, no, we're not going out to take that assignment until like, we get our staff situation set up like fixed and you know sometimes it's just those collective actions are you know it's not the end like there's no end-all be-all one-size-fits-all solution just be ready to kind of like explore what it means get all the resources you can there's groups like there's still like the industrial workers of the world, which has really good organizing trainings, OT 101, 102. I'll pitch that as a member of, as a,

also a dual carding member of the IWW. But there's also labor notes and other groups like essential workers, organizing committee, that sorts of things that like give you good like rundowns committee that's such the things that like give you good like rundowns on how to do the organizing work so just be careful always be careful yeah be aware that people are afraid bosses use fear um to scare you guys to scare everybody and like the the the more people on board with the thing the less fear like it's amazing when you're running up into a strike and you're really firing on all cylinders and like everyone in your like work area, it's like, we're getting together to take a picture, like get ready to go on strike.

And it's like, literally, I mean, when we went on strike, when our hospital went on strike, it was the first time where like, there was like 1500 nurses all in one place is the first time when all of us were in one place ever. And it was this massive, like coming together thing experience. And it's really hard to describe when you, when, cause you know, we're always griping at each other about this or that thing. And it's like,

but when you're actually all out there together on the same time, when you pull it off, it's really amazing. It's hard. It's, it's hard to describe. But when you do it, it's like, it's like the purest drug and yeah so i've i've heard some people who are union skeptical be like well you just experienced like the good shit and like what about all the defeaters like well

get the little hits get the little hits here and there and you'll get yourself to the point where you can do the big thing you know you the whole thing is like getting people to do the thing is like the is it's like the the perennial uh you know curse of the left can you do it or a curse of you know like the the organizer activist or you know whatever you want to call it you know it's just but you know if you don't do anything nothing happens yep you can all sit and complain uh and nothing changes so you know the only way to change is things is take those complaints and turn them into collective action yeah i think i think that's that that that that's that's a pretty good positive note to end on just go do things go do the thing now yep stop tweet stop tweeting stop tweeting about it go do the thing um yeah i think that's it i like i guess one last thing because i talked about social media and talk

you know i talk smack i like i've been off twitter for some months now and it's it really cleared my brain but you know um being on finding the social media space where your coworkers are at is really important. And that might mean setting up like a Discord or, you know, WhatsApp or a Facebook group. You can set up secret Facebook groups that no one can see. And yeah, like Facebook will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital has like a, like a Facebook group with like 2000 nurses and we, and that's where we got really amped up.

And it was a way for us to be talking with each other and talk each other through the stress of setting up, you know, this thing. And then also like, you know, people, workers can organize,

like, like people will do organizing even if like they don't have like that full support so like some co-worker or not co-workers but members of my union went on strike at cook county this year and the whole thing was organized practically without like staff right because the staff were barred from being in meetings, like in-person meetings because of COVID. And they couldn't go into the hospital because of COVID. So people were very pissed about how things had been going. And they were talking to each other.

And we organized that strike. They organized that strike on their own, practically. It lined up. They were off there. They didn't have the no- strike clause like operating at the time. And, um, and they pulled off like a pretty, like a significant victory, um, from their one day strike. And it really, um, really, you know, like got them some big wins, uh, but, and they

didn't, they didn't need the union to do it for them. You know, the union was kind of like a facilitation tool rather than like the thing that got it done i think that's the other thing is that they're people who think that like it's all dependent on like having like this hero staffer sort of thing situation and at the end of the day like if it's not the workers doing it themselves nothing's going to happen yeah it's yeah the the the the power the power is with the working class itself. And if the working class doesn't use it, nothing will ever happen. Yeah.

But if it does use it, I will trail off here. Sounds good. So John is, is there any place that you want people to find things that you do? Like, yeah, you're all used to. I used to be on on twitter um

i periodically will show up on uh varn vlog which is uh c derrick varn's um vlog on youtube um there's uh i recommend people uh listen to there's a group of podcasts called the Emancipation Network. I really like their stuff, especially there's a, what's it called? General Intellect Unit, which talks about like cybernetics and the left. of particularly cool stuff that's just come out recently about um about strategy that i think is really important for everyone to understand um i was a founding member of the uh libertarian socialist caucus at dsa but i'm no longer in dsa uh there's a but that group is still kind of kicking around and we're coming up with new things uh and then i guess like um the university of chicago labor council is a group that i spend a lot of time with and uh there's also tenants united hyde park woodlawn which is a tenant union that you helped set up this is true i didn't know hell yeah so uh you know um go out there and you know don't don't listen to me or don't try and find follow me go like

go figure shit out in your own neighborhood and yeah and set up a set up a million different you know like labor councils and worker committees and tenant unions yeah you know like build build power that's why i think i sometimes we are afraid of the term power i think that power is at its best when it's everybody and so i guess i'd be my say is like go out there and build community and worker power and um don't be afraid because fear is the one thing that they've got to wave over our heads and sometimes you just got to take that jump and do the thing. And, uh, and that's how we're hopefully going to win one day. Yeah.

Save the world. Yep. And you can do this. Just all of these things, everything we've been talking about for the past, like two hours, these were all just done by ordinary people. Like there's,

there's, it's all, it's all done by random people. And you know, that random person can be you. You just have to go and do go do the thing yeah so yeah this that this has been making happen here uh you can find us on twitter at happen here pod and also on instagram there and uh yeah there's other cool zone stuff oh i guess

yeah we there's there's there's a new show called Megacorp that we have that's about how corporations are bad, and the first season's about Amazon. It's out now. Okay, maybe it just doesn't have a Twitter. But yeah, it's called Megacorp, and you can find it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye.

Distributed. Yes. Okay. Bye. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks slash sources.

Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trails, and step into the flames of right. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and Lord of Latin America. Listen to nocturnal on the I heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.