It Could Happen Here - The Wall and the Environment

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

James is joined by Erick Meza to discuss the ecological and human damage done by the militarization of the US/ Mexico border.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should probably keep your lights on for

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and to include the border wall. So, Eric, would you like to introduce yourself? Thank you, James. Of course, my name is Eric Mesa. I use he, him pronouns. And I am the Borderlands Coordinator for Sierra Club, part of the Grand Canyon chapter based out of Tucson, Arizona, which is the unceded land of the Tohono O'odham and Pasquayaki people and many other tribes that might have called home. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you very much for joining us. That was a fantastic introduction. So, Eric, I think if we start out by just explaining

what the border wall kind of looks like in the landscape and how it operates in the landscape, because although it's something that you and I might see almost every day, for a lot of people, it's something that they kind of saw on the news three, four years ago, and then the news started reporting on it. So can you explain the physical kind of stature and impact of the wall? Yes. Well, I think for each person, it definitely takes into it with the perspective that they might have. It definitely impacts people in a different way.

But one thing that you can notice as soon as you see it is how massive it is, how it just divides these pristine, beautiful Sonoran desert lands and divides them on half. So that already for us as an organization since the beginning and the conception of the idea of start walling all of these remote areas, start looking at the environmental impact that social action can have. So it's always really hard to see and just to imagine and to think about all of the different things, not only people, but all the different movement that used to happen in these areas now has been completely interrupted yeah yeah definitely i remember in 2020 i was out in on kumi island in in place called campo uh filming a kumi i protest against the desecration of their sacred sites by the actually i was writing for the sierra club um and i i saw a deer that day

like and it just came up to the wall and it was like what the fuck do i do like this wasn't here last time i came here it was just this really i don't know why obviously the world does horrible cruel things to people every day but i don't know why it struck me at how unnatural and unwelcome it was in that place but it did so i think maybe if we could look at these different the wall spans a huge area and then stops randomly throughout that area so perhaps you could explain some of the ecological impacts maybe if we start where you are in tucson and then we move gradually west to where i am at the western end of it. And would that be a good sort of way to do that? Yeah, of course.

Well, here in Tucson, our closest border is Nogales. And once we started moving east, or I'm sorry, west from there, the closest one right next to it is called Sassavie. And as you mentioned, Nogales, there is big walls. And then suddenly it stops because then the terrain gets very uneven. There is a range of mountain called the Pajarito Mountains, which is one of the most biodiverse areas here in the southwest with some endemic species of plants and animals, actually. Thankfully, the wall stops there. the wall stops there and then there is certain areas that there is a lot of unfinished

projects or we also call them orphan walls, like sections of the wall that never were completed and they just stand there. Unfortunately, to get them up there, there was a lot of impact. For example, they used dynamite to blow up entire mountain tops to get equipment up there. And some of the cases without even constructing any wall at the end. So it's really unfortunate because a lot of the debris that came out of these explosions right now is causing a lot of erosion issues,

and it's like moving into those canyons and covering a lot of the vegetation that was there before. Then as you keep coming, passing through the Pajarito Mountains, then you get to the area called the Buenos Aires National Refuge near the town of Sassabay. And there is a large segment of a wall there with 26 gaps, small gaps, big gaps. And all of these gaps have been there since the beginning of the construction. CBP recently announced that they're going to be closing some of these gaps. apps. They have been used by migrants a lot recently. But in recent days, actually, the influx of migrants have definitely declined a lot, different to what other people have seen in other parts of the country. But especially in this area in Arizona, we didn't see the huge amounts of migrants coming after Title 42.

So once you pass that section, then you get to what's the, once you pass the Sasebe port of entry, then you enter the Tohono O'odham Reservation. Tohono O'odham decided that they didn't want a wall there and they fought for it and they didn't build a wall. And there is about, I'm not really sure about the number of miles. I think there is about 16 to 22 miles of just the land that only contains what's known as a vehicle barrier or Normandy barriers. These are made out of like old train tracks, which we really like environmentally speaking, because it allows the movement of the animals and the flow of the water as well. And then once you pass the reservation, then you go into Oregon Pipe National Park, and

then you start seeing more wall sections on areas like Quito, Quito Springs, like a very important ceremonial site for the Tohono O'odham, Hiesha O'odham people. And a lot of destruction on those areas, sacred sites as well. There are very cultural and important for the Tohono O'odham people like Monument Hill,

a burial site that wall was built right on top of it. And you just keep moving and then you get to areas that are more remote until you get to Yuma. And then we have also Kokopa Reservation there, that there is no wall. Cocoa Power reservation there, that there is no wall. The wall exists just after the reservation. There are some segments, I believe, that still have no wall in there. Recently, there was the action by the state governor to put shipping containers there. They were removed recently to be replaced with the

regular bowler type of wall, the wall that you see in other places. And yes, you keep coming past Calexico and all those areas until you get to Jumie Land and the Yuma and Otay Mountains. mountains and all the way to what's known as Friendship Park, which is a binational park located in the border between San Diego and Tijuana, which is the last binational park or the only one that we have in the southern border. And now as we speak, new 34 walls are being built in that area as well. So even so, President Biden said that he was not going to build more walls. We still see new construction happening as we speak right now. Yeah. And we've had friends at Friendship Park on our show before, and I'm sure we will again, because they do very important work. And it's a very important space for so many families who are divided by the border yep so i think people i guess when we talk about ecological impact

people always like um they people like big animals right and so the charismatic megafauna i guess that um that are impacted by this so maybe that's a good way to look at this i know that um there are some jaguars jaguars however you want to say that that are impacted uh in it's my very british pronunciation uh in arizona there is the bighorn sheep uh of course who are closer to me right near to hakumba where people will have heard the scripted series by the time this comes out, so they'll be familiar with Hukumba. Can you talk about the impact of the wall on those sort of bigger animals? Absolutely. Yeah, that has been our main focus as an environmental organization. Since 2005, when the Real ID waiver came up, signed by George W. Bush as a response to 9-11 and the intention of

secure the borders. The Real ID Act waived every single environmental law that we know, like including the Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act, Act, Clean Water Act, a law that you can imagine it's included. It's about 40 or more of these laws were completely waived in order to start building walls. We noticed right away that the first walls started coming up. It was really easy for people to go over, undercut through them, or go around them. But then we start noticing that animals were not able to do that anymore. We start seeing the impacts on some of the species that are super important. You got to remember the species of the desert, they need to cover large amounts of territories to find the resources they need to survive. We're talking about large migration routes that go from Mexico

into the United States, back and forth. And just to mention some of the species that are considered in danger in the area of California, we got the big horned sheep. Then you start coming and there's the Sonoran Desert pronghorn in the Desierto de Altar. Then we got jaguars in Arizona. We have also black bears. The thing that makes this area so special here in Arizona is what we have known as the Sky Islands, which is really high altitude mountains that you can find some of the species that come from the north. This is their southmost territory. And some of the species from the south, this is the southmost territory and some of the species from the south this is the northmost territory so species like jaguars can all of a sudden be drinking water out of the same pond with a black bear yeah and that is very unusual and very rare and very uh amazing you know

so we also have ocelots which is another type of cat that lives here in arizona uh we also have ocelots, which is another type of cat that lives here in Arizona. We also have the Mexican gray wolf, a species that is in danger that use these corridors back and forth. And unfortunately, we haven't had the opportunity to track properly a lot of these animals to recognize their migration patterns, because a lot of these animals cannot be put on a GPS collar, for example. But what we have done is put a lot of cameras on the wilderness, and we're able to photograph jaguars on this side of the border and photograph the same jaguar a few years later in Mexico or vice versa. So there is a lot of proof that all these animals have been using these corridors for

thousands of years. There is plenty of evidence that the importance of these wildlife corridors in the Sonoran Desert. And also we see, you know, like the, that with the construction of the border wall, a lot of the species that we used to see more often in the United States, we don't see as much anymore. Animals have a memory. So when they come and all of a sudden see this really large obstacle, they're less likely

to come back and try it again. And that can be a generational thing that they can pass it to future generations. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the

pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search,

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to get to the place where the border is to build the wall and can we talk about how those have affected drainage and water sources along the border absolutely yeah water is life so in here in arizona for example we have two rivers that actually flow north, the San Pedro River and the Santa Cruz River. These are rivers, for example, San Pedro is born in Mexico and Santa Cruz comes in the United States and goes down to Mexico and then goes up again. and then goes up again. And a lot of the drainage, that has been one of the biggest issues that we have encountered because the wall acts like a dam almost.

And in a lot of places, doesn't allow the water to flow as it used to. And that is going to bring an impact to all of the different species of animals, but also the plants that depend on this water to survive so when the construction of the border wall came you mentioned roads and the road right next or adjacent to the wall now it's it's it's like four or five line

road in some places and it's been also increased the elevation so when you increase the elevation on these roads and do not have the proper drainage on the areas that need to be and then you're going to have water being stuck on one side or the other of the border and not able to make it to the areas where it used to flow normally so we might not see the consequences in the first year or the second year, but we can start seeing consequences in a few years from now. Several plants all of a sudden starting to die because they didn't have the water that their habitat used to provide for them. So that's why they grew there in the first place. So we might see a lot of changes on the landscape in regards of the way that the water moves on those places. have been either moved or destroyed in the construction of the wall around Organ Pipe and just not on their reservation, but very much on their unceded homelands, right?

Yeah. Yeah. The saguaro cactus, it is considered as a relative for the Tohono O'odham. So you can just imagine the sentiment of the Tohono O'odham people by looking at the saguaros being chopped or bulldozed on these areas considered sacred for them so there was definitely a lot of that happening there is an effort but we haven't seen it yet it's just on uh written right now that they're going to revegetate some of these areas that got impacted

but we're still waiting for for that yeah and that stuff always comes like last and slowest if it happens at all and i know like both the kumiai the autumn i'm sure other to horn autumn other tribes have had their their ancestral burial grounds as you mentioned uh destroyed and for a similar reason to the Real ID Act, I think it was different. I think this was because it was done under executive order and it was an emergency that they waived a lot of those. Normally, tribal nations would have the right to sort of inspect and do a survey before digging, but I know in 2020 they weren't doing that, right? they weren't doing that, right?

No, they didn't. The Real ID Act also has a law that protects archaeological resources, so they were able to do those things even if it was on federal land and it was an indigenous sacred site. Yeah. So another thing, talking of federal land that we should probably mention, is this concept of the Roosevelt Reservation that people might not be familiar with.

Can you explain what that is to folks? The Roosevelt Reservation, it is the area at the border, about 60 feet away from where the border line or division is. And that's what's known as the Roosevelt Reservation. So that is an area that's right now mostly managed by CBP, Border Patrol. And people can't, it's like technically not, it can't be private land right or the government can take it at any point is that right exactly and i know that's what they were using uh in the case of the uh around campo and that's what that's what they were doing one thing i think we've

neglected to do i guess i've i spent half my life trying to do this but uh i'll let you take a swing at it is. Can you describe these desert landscapes for people who are... Because people think of the desert, right? And they think of Ossetia Wells, where people like to go drive their vehicles, and it looks like Saudi Arabia, but that's not most of the desert. The desert is actually a very alive place and a place full of life that has struggled and made a way to exist there. Can you explain? And it's a very special place, not just sort of because it's unique, but it has a real sort of, well, yeah, it has a uniqueness that you can't really feel anywhere else in the world, I guess. Yes, thank you, James.

I definitely agree with you on that. As a person that grew up here and had this deep appreciation for the desert environment, I think it is such a beautiful area and not only beautiful in the sense that the Sonoran Desert, for example, is considered the most biodiverse desert in the world. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's the sonoran desert for example is considered the most biodiverse desert in the

world oh wow so well yeah so it's considered a desert because the amount of water that we have but the amount of species it matches no other desert in the world here we have the most species of plant most species of animals and only for people like and people goes out there sometimes on a hike on the desert and might not see much of the wildlife there other than the birds. And especially on areas where there is a little bit of water, but you got to remember also that the desert comes most alive at night. So that's when all of the species, you know, that are not wanting to hang out in the heat of the desert, they come out and this place becomes like a whole other place at night. So it is definitely worth protecting these and every single desert, because sometimes as we might not see the biodiversity in our first visit,

it's there. And we, like the amounts of plants and animals were enough to sustain entire populations of people as well in the past so i think once you build that relationship with the desert and able to experience you and everybody that i have talked started developing this really deep appreciation for it, for sure. Yeah, it sort of pulls you in once you appreciate it. Yeah, you become a desert person. We were talking about this at Hukumba the other day,

how you just turn into a desert. You can see who the desert people are and who the people who haven't been out there before are. So obviously the desert is a beautiful place and a very diverse place but it's not a place that is necessarily easy to cross right and when we as you've explained so well there are the wall is not a contiguous thing it's full of gaps and holes and a lot of the places where there are gaps are places where it's hard to build and therefore it's hard to cross can you you explain what this... It creates a funnel, right?

Like a funneling effect through the gap sometimes. Can you explain what that means for people who are crossing north? Yeah, that is a huge issue, these funnels or areas where there are no walls because what's been happening and we observed is that as more people start going to these really remote areas of the desert, we have two issues. You know, first people is putting themselves on bigger danger and they're more likely to get themselves hurt and some of them die.

likely to get themselves hurt and some of them die. So as also you start pushing up people to more remote areas out in the desert where used to be this nature pristine environments, now we have the impacts of people moving through these areas. And not only the impacts of the people, but you got the impacts of border patrol, patrolling the area with their trucks and dragging tires to erase their footprints. And these are really fragile soils already, opening new roads through the desert with ATVs or flying helicopters on these mountains or drones or putting lights in the middle of areas where it used to be one of the most dark skies in the country. So all of those put together create huge issues for people and the environment as well.

Yeah, yeah. The light thing you mentioned, like it's very, I don't know, people, again, who haven't been to the desert won't understand how much more you can see when there is no light for hundreds of miles. There's a place I like't know, people, again, who haven't been to the desert won't understand how much more you can see when there is no light for hundreds of miles. There's a place I like to go, which recently got a Border Patrol substation, and now it's just glowing,

and you can't see the Milky Way and things. In addition to the human impact, which, as we said, is terrible, right? I think 860 people Border Patrol found in 2022 had died crossing north. That's a very low estimate for the amount of people who died. And Border Patrol are kind of actively trying not to count all of the deaths, according to agents I've spoken to, right?

So this is a difficult topic because it's it's it's a horrible thing that like shouldn't happen um but i guess can we discuss how lethal these the wall is for people crossing north if you're comfortable talking about that yeah um well definitely the design of it like uh on most of the places, it's a 30-foot wall with a metal plate on the top. And for some sources, I have heard that it was designed because when people reach a 30-foot height, they start kind of getting dizzy or nauseous. So they're more likely to fall down. So it's already like a dead apparatus, you know, like designed to kill. Still, people will venture and give it a try.

Some young folks, it's kind of funny to see them climb how fast they're able to do it. But we got to remember that not only like young folks are trying to climb, you know, sometimes there is a older lady or sometimes an older man that wants to give it a try. And the rate of injuries definitely has increased so much of people falling because they go dizzy or they got nauseous or they burn their hands or they lost balance and then fall from 30 feet high. You know, it can be lethal. So we have a lot of broken legs, spine injuries, head trauma, people that has fall.

People, one person, one time hang out from it and end up choking herself. So there is definitely a lot of debt when people try to go over the wall. But we also see people now just cutting through the boulders. So it's easier. And then just put the thing back. So there is all kinds of people doing it all different kinds of ways, depending on the area. And we see a little bit of everything for sure. And of course, you know, if you try to reach for the gaps,

then you have to do a longer hike. And usually people is not even able to carry the amount of water that they need to do these kind of hikes. We got to remember that a lot of the people that we encounter now in the border, they come from other kinds of environments. They're not familiar with the desert. They come from tropical areas where they can find water everywhere they uh they're not used to the heat of the dry heat of the desert they're not used to the cold of the nights of the desert so all of these factors make this environment really challenging for people uh to try to cross it yeah In a lot of ways, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

And it's a very hard environment. Like I spent a lot of time camping in the desert and I like, I don't think there's a year that I've been hiking in the desert that I haven't rescued someone who was very well equipped and had just gone on a day hike, right? And they've run out of water, they've overheated, they've drunk water and not electrolytes,

and they've got hyponatremia or whatever it is. And that's people who went to REI the day before, let alone people who've been walking since the Darien Gap or people who have much lesser means to equip themselves. It's a very dangerous environment. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout?

Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know follow and admire join me every week for post run high it's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all it's light-hearted pretty crazy and very fun listen to post run high on the i heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America.

From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse

and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

Check out betteroffline.com. betteroffline.com People may be listening and thinking, like I think with immigration issues, and specifically with the wall and the border, it's such an apparatus, right? The whole, you know, DHS and its $175 billion budget is such an apparatus that people can feel powerless in trying to put a stop to this, to make this change,

to make this even a little bit more humane, just so we seem to ratchet up the evil meter every year at the border, regardless if Democrats or Republicans, it doesn't matter. What would you suggest folks listening can do to make it more humane, to advocate for like even less impactful

border policies on the environment or on people? Yeah, I think we need to look at what we have done so far and look at the results. I think we can see that in some areas to build a border wall, a mile of border wall, we're spending over $30 million. And I think it's important to think about what can we do with that money? There is a lot of resources that we have used for this false sense of security that a border wall can give us.

And it's just not working the way it's supposed to be working. And it's putting a lot of pressure on the environment. I think that should not be an afterthought conversation because I think when we listen to politicians and it's our next time to go out to vote, we need to really start asking the questions about the environment. I know it's important that we hear in the border narrative of politicians talking about immigration, border security, trade with Mexico, but there is very little talk in the border around the environmental issues, you know, and that shouldn't be an afterthought. Border people, people that lives in the borderlands also should have a chance to live on a good environment, a clean environment. And. So I think a solution for people, things that they can do,

is definitely ask those questions when it's time to vote and see how can we really address root causes. The border wall is just a medieval solution that it's really trying to stop such a complex issue by doing that. It's not going to work out. So it's originally Border Patrol said that the border wall is just the only intention they have is to slow down people for at least five minutes. Well, is it really worth it then, you know, to slow them five more minutes to all these impacts and all these expenses that we're doing? And the maintenance

that nobody has talked about yet is that we have sections of the wall already that they're falling apart because it was just thrown up really fast. You know, the erosion is already exposing the foundation and we are looking at millions and millions of dollars that will come just to try to keep it every year after every monsoon season. Yeah, yeah. I know along the Rio Grande as well, the wake from the Border Patrol boats is causing the river

to undercut the foundation of the wall. Yeah. Which is, yeah, fantastic on the part of the government. Good work. And yeah, Eric, where can people follow you and your efforts if they want to follow along online and maybe see some pictures of the border and hear more about what you're doing?

Thank you, James. I appreciate that. We do have a website, the Sierra Club Borderlands. You can learn all about the waivers there. You can learn a lot of the work that we've been doing in the past. We are part of a larger coalition of environmental-related border organizations. We work with people all the way from California through Texas, but mostly here in Arizona. And we have our social media,

Sierra Club Borderlands. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all of the different. We have a YouTube channel as well. And you can see some of the videos of the documenting that we do. We're able to go down to the border,

document with drones so people can actually look at the irony of the whole project. We do also outings that we take people out into the desert to get familiar with the issues themselves. We do cleanup at the local rivers and collaborate with other organizations, all kinds of work. collaborate with other organizations, all kinds of work. So if people in the audience is based here in Arizona, they're welcome to join us to some of these outings or activities that we do with the community. We are going to do an announcement probably in the next month, because since 2019, Sierra Club, in collaboration with the Southern Border Community Coalition,

sued the federal government for the illegal use of funds of the 284 and 2808 funds which were funds that were originally allocated for the military and drug related programs that were used to border wall construction so we sue the government and we're about to settle on this and we're hoping that we're going to get good results on environmental remediation and wildlife passages along the southern border oh great that's good to hear yeah i know there are a lot of lawsuits like individual tribes sued the government as well for that and so we'll have to do a lawsuit roundup one day and have you back well thank you very much er Eric. Thank you for joining us

and sharing some of your experiences along the border. Absolutely. Thank you for the invitation. And I'll see, talk to you soon. Yep. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com,

or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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