It Could Happen Here - The War on Iran and Convergences of Fascism

Episode Date: June 4, 2026

Dana El Kurd speaks to Negar Razavi, a political anthropologist at the Mossavar-Rahmani Center for Iran and Persian Gulf Studies. Dana and Negar discuss conditions in Iran today, the impact the war has had on the regime and on regional dynamics, and how the “experts” in DC are implicated in this disaster. Sources: Mohammad Ali Kadivar on the Iranian regime’s popular mobilization - https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/online-exclusive/why-the-iranian-regime-owns-the-streets/ Moustafa Bayoumi on the anti-Palestinian roots of Islamophobia - https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/may/23/islamophobia-us-palestine-history   Negar Razavi’s website - https://negarsrazavi.com/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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My name is Dan Al-Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of Arab and Palestinian politics. And today I'm joined by Dr. Nagar Razavi. She is a political anthropologist at the, I'm going to get this right, Masavar Rahmani Center for Iran and Persian Gulf Studies at Princeton University. And her work is on the role of think tanks in shaping U.S. security policies towards the Middle East and Iran specifically. And I've recently had the pleasure of being at a symposium with Dr. Rossavi. And I thought she would be a really welcome viewpoint for our audience.

Thank you for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. So I think in regards to the war on Iran, there's been such a focus on the Strait of Permuz and the economic impact of that that conditions on the ground have really slipped from our radars. Like, I don't see it as often, and I think I'm a very well-plugged-in person. So can we start there? Can you tell us more about the situation and what it's like for like the average Iranian right now? Yeah, thank you so much for leading with that because I do think that is absolutely missing in not only, mainstream media, but in much of the policy discussions that both of us follow closely, it's very bad on the ground for ordinary Iranians on all fronts.

Economically, it is very dire at the moment. Inflation is now at unbelievably high rates. The level of damage that happened to the country, the physical damage, cause a lot of people to lose their jobs, if not their lives, because they hit hospitals, they hit schools, they hit factories. These are places where people work. So now all of those people are without a job. The cost of living, again, has skyrocketed. People who depended on the internet somehow to do their work are also now out of a job because it's been the longest internet shut down in Iran's history at this point. So that's the economic aspect that implicates

every single person inside Iran at the moment. And we're hearing that even people can't exchange the dollar. So things are really, really bad at this point. And then you add on the layer of the number of people who have been killed by the latest count. I think I saw 1,700 civilians have been killed. 3.5 million Iranians were displaced, and this was mainly people trying to escape major city centers. They went to areas that were very under-resourced, and so they were also suffering from lack of water and electricity wherever they were going. Those people have now slowly been coming back to the major cities. Many more thousands of people were injured or maimed. And then, of course, the entire population has been terrorized.

by this war and the uncertainty of whether it's going to start again. I mean, the threats that Trump has given up until just a few hours ago was at any moment the bombings could start again. And then lastly, I want to say in terms of, I touched on the infrastructure, but they hit desalination plants, they hit hospitals, they hit oil depots. People's quality of life right now inside Iran is pretty bad. And then you layer onto that a now even more repressive government that has been executing people they accuse of being traders at unbelievable rates, a total clampdown on levels we haven't seen previously. So again, short story, it's very bad inside of Iran right now. Yeah, I really wanted to make sure that people got that full scope. You know, we forget that

there's an internet blackout. We forget that Iranians have already dealt with such a repressive crackdown right before the war started. You know, like, I want people to make the connection that, like, conditions are super, super dire. You know, since you did mention that point, maybe we can elaborate a little bit. How do you think the Iranian regime is using this moment? I know short term, they are utilizing it to just crack down on any dissent, but how do you think it'll be used, kind of medium and long term. Yeah. So, you know, in our line of work, it's always hard to make predictions, but we can use past experiences as a somewhat of a guide here. So just to remind your listeners, in January, there was a major uprising of Iranians against their government,

and there was one of the most massive crackdowns since the 1980s when there was a massacre against political dissidents. And so going into this war, there was already one of the most brutal crackdowns happening. And then what people who are much more knowledgeable about Iran's domestic politics are telling me is that the people who are essentially replacing the leaders that were killed by U.S. Israeli strikes are more hardliner and are more aligned with the hardline factions of the IRGC or Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, which is one branch of the military in Iran that is very, very powerful and is loyal to the Supreme Leader, who is now the son of the previous

Supreme Leader who was killed on the first day of the war, actually. And so using the last time Iran was at a war, which was in the Iran-Iraq War, repression is going to get so much worse under war conditions because anyone who they don't like or anyone who speaks out can then be made a traitor and an enemy of the Iranian people. And so they can use warfare as the grounds to essentially go even further in their oppression. And that's what a lot of human rights activists and people on the ground are worried about. Yeah. I also read a really interesting article I'll put in the show notes about the popular mobilization that the Iranian regime has like really fostered over, you know, many years through a variety of ways, whether it's

through inserting, you know, their forces in universities or through particular kinds of cultural practices around like martyrs and things like that. So like the Iranian regime is also kind of mobilizing its supporters in a way that, I mean, obviously for people who like want democracy and freedom, like this is, this is the worst case scenario. We as in the United States, I shouldn't take responsibility for that at all. But neither of us should. Yeah, neither really. It's not our fault, but we really have, you know, given the worst actors, a huge victory. And also to that point, if you don't mind me jumping in. Yeah, yeah, of course.

It's also, you know, triggered nationalism among segments of the population. The war has made many people who were even protesting in January against the government, now coming out and defending at least not the sovereignty of their country or the integrity of their country. I mean, it makes sense. Yeah, so there's all these strange now alliance. is forming. And the government is actually playing some parts of it smartly where you'll see them having women without hijab coming to pro-government rallies and having a Lebanese woman singer's

voice at their rallies, which, for those of you who don't know, women are not allowed to sing as solo artists in Iran. They can be part of a chorus. So they're also playing this interesting imaging game where they want to also show, look, we can also be open and inclusive at the same time that they're executing people at the highest rate since the 1980s. Yeah. I'm going to have to look for that video of the Lebanese singer. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine.

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Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So we participated both of us in a symposium at Princeton. I think was titled like the long arc of fascism, very interesting set of presentations. and your presentation was about the different kind of political strands that facilitated this war on Iran. So I just wanted to just start off with, could you outline the argument of your presentation for our listeners? Yes. What I argued in the conference, which was fantastic and I really learned so much from your presentation as well, was the idea that this war was made possible in a sense because several different strands of fascism have come together in this moment. and I called it converging fascisms, just to go quickly through it

because I don't want to drill on and on. But the idea is that one of the core strands has been this growing anti-Muslim sentiment that really goes across so many different fascist movements that we see, whether it's the far right in Europe here in the United States. Islamophobia is so central. And of course, the shootings at the mosque in San Diego

is just the latest of. of long string of violence. The Hindutfa in India, anti-Muslim sentiments, racism is central to the fascism that we see there. And then, of course, in Israel, that's been a core element of their anti-Palestinian racism generally, but also specifically anti-Muslim racism.

So that's kind of the big strand that I identified as coming together. And within that, there's an inflection of anti-Shiah sentiment. And there's lots of scholars who have talked about how really the anti-Muslim project starts with the 79 revolution, this like modern manifestation of it. And so it's always had this anti-Shiya sentiment to it. Inflection. Yeah. Infliction.

Thank you. The second strand that I wanted to highlight was this white supremacy and Aryanism, which is interesting because it actually looks. loops in the far right of Iranian actors, and Iranian diasporic actors in particular, those that are tied to the former Shah of Iran's son, Reza Pahlavi, who are really linking their wanting to overthrow the regime in Iran to restoring this Aryan nation that existed before, and this is their words, not mine, the Arab invasion of Islam.

And this is really important for the far right movement that supported this invasion, was this idea that they're going to save Iran from Islam, which again, the Islamophobia, but also the racialized violence against Arabs in the region and particularly against Palestinians. There's this very strong anti-Palestinian current in this movement that I'm talking about, where they are actively recruiting and aligning themselves with Israel. in the genocide, which is so horrible. The third strand that I wanted to talk about was settler colonialism and nativism. And I think your listeners probably know enough about this,

but this is essentially the bringing together of both the settler colonial violence that we see in Israel, the United States, Australia, etc., with the anti-immigrant sentiment that has swept across much of the world, including in places like South Africa. Then the next strand that I talk about is nostalgic paternalism. I call it that. You always need a little bit of patriarchy. Right, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it's basically like the people who call Trump Daddy, you know, this idea that we need some strong man in our lives. And like Egyptians have this with Cece, you know, this idea that we just need this strong man to guide us. forward is so dominant in a lot of these fascist groups. Modi is somebody's, you know, paternal figure. And again, Rza Pahlavi, the self-proclaimed leader of the Iranian opposition in exile, has numerous times called himself the father of the Iranian people. And he's used

really cringe language around how Iran is this abused woman and he's going to come in and save it. and completely out of touch with this amazing feminist movement that came out of Iran organically in 2022 called the Woman Life Freedom Movement. He's put himself in direct opposition against that movement, which is wild to think about. And then the last kind of fascist strand that I identified, and this really also links to Naomi Klein's work, who was also at the conference, are these techno-fascists. And that's like the Palantiers, the anthropic, dystopian future that a lot of these techno bros want to impose on the world, that is very anti-human. And so all of these strands come together at this very particular moment to justify and advance a war that some actors have wanted for a long time. And I say that it's kind of the blending of these at this particular moment that enabled this war. Yeah, I think the convergence is an apt description. And yet, especially the patriarchal stuff,

like cringe is the right word. Like, it's extremely cringe, but also, you know, dangerous, that all of these things are coming together to facilitate this kind of violence. And then the war on Iran is facilitating the expansion of fascism here and vice versa. I wanted to just kind of get your opinion of something. I read this article by Mustafa Baiumi in The Guardian about how in the United States, what actually drives Islamophobia is at its root anti-Palestinian racism. I mean, and you certainly, you know, in your presentation, talked about that strand as well. In the Iranian context, is the anti-Palestinian racism kind of tangential to the kind of broader racialized Islamophobia? Yeah, how would you see that?

Yeah, no, I agree to a large extent to what Biomi is saying, I think anti-Palestinian racism is central to how the opposition in Iran views itself. This hasn't been helped by the fact that the Iranian government, the current Iranian government, has been at least materially and ideologically, one of the biggest supporters of Palestinian liberation and has used the issue, as many other dictators in the region have, by the way, has used the issue to actually suppress and oppress their own people. And so for a long time, there was a sentiment inside Iran that the Iranian government is sending its resources, sending its weapons, making Iran an isolated rogue state on behalf of the Palestinians

while we, the Iranian people, suffer. And so this created this people-to-people tension, where anti-Palestinian sentiment grew inside Iran and outside Iran, obviously, in these fascist movements. And then that feeds back into the Islamophobia, this idea that we have nothing in common with the Palestinians because they're a part of a religion that has also oppressed us or a part of a ethnic group that has oppressed us. So it's its feedback loop. That's pretty horrible. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's good that we outline kind of the different mechanisms. there. And it's really, you know, it's, it's so unfortunate because, like, you see polling of, like, Palestinians and Palestinians were very much against what the Iranian regime did in Syria, for example. Yeah. But like you said, there's a weaponization of these, these different causes, just like the

United States weaponizes the woman life freedom movement, you know, every regime uses things for its benefit. Just to add, like a slightly hopeful note is that I actually think the experience of this war has actually made more thoughtful Iranians see more of themselves now in the struggle of Palestinians. Interesting. Because they are actually seeing the hollowness and hypocrisy of what the U.S. and Israel say and do. And so now I think there's been a little bit of a shift back in the direction of solidarity with the Palestinians. Oh, that's excellent to hear. You know, we could talk about this all day. Like, there's such a disconnect between diaspras and what happens on the ground.

And this is not specific to the Iranians. But I imagine even if you lean that way, but you're in Iran being bombed by Israel, that's going to change your opinion in a way that, like, if you're in Los Angeles waving the Israeli flag, it's a little bit different. Absolutely. There's kind of stakes there. Yeah, yeah. You're like, who's the one dropping the bombs? Exactly. Yeah.

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Your coworker who, quote unquote, doesn't read, is reading romance. Your mom, book talk, the entire internet. I'm Sanjana Basker. I'm Tyler McCall. And this is Radio 831, a romance podcast. The books, the tropes, the adaptations, the drama, the disc, course. And what all of it says about how we actually love, yearn, and obsess. We're going to Weathering Heights, which, for the record, is not a romance novel. And yet it has haunted the romance

genre for 200 years. We're getting into dark romance, age gaps, certain Russian hockey players, and sentient objects, in love, which is a thing. That's the kind of conversation we're having every episode. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. So your research is on, as I said earlier, like kind of the think tank landscape in D.C. I remember, by the way, finding out about you back in the heydays of Twitter and being like, somebody's studying think tanks? Like, that's so cool.

That's so clever. Like, yes, we should be studying them in this way. And basically, like, your research is like the types of knowledge and the sources of knowledge that become hegemonic in these spaces. And then that, of course, impact American policy. So could you, I know this is kind of a. a hard ask. But could you tell us like some basic findings of your of your research the past couple of years? Yeah. So thanks for that setup because I actually have a book coming out on this and it's called

The Geopolitics of Expertise. And that's one of the central findings of the book is that this think tank landscape needs to be understood as a transnational space. That's one of the key findings in which a lot of actors and stakeholders, especially from the Middle East or Swana region, are invested in shaping the narrative from the inside out. And this is something that I think traditional models of understanding U.S. Empire, for example, failed in understanding,

which is that, you know, when you have Arab Gulf states or Turkey or Morocco or Israel, invested in ensuring the debate, in Washington is shaped in a particular way that meets their interest, which is not always aligned with the U.S. They're going to throw millions of dollars into think tanks to essentially shape what I call the common sense on any number of issues. And so they are co-constructing the imperial imagination. And this is one of the key findings. And then when it comes to Iran in particular, they paradoxically want to ensure that Iran remains an unknowable enemy.

That's the other key piece of the book, which is that this constructed unknowability is key to ensuring that the U.S. maintains a posture of confrontation with Iran. And that means that you want to have this enemy that you can never fully figure out, or this enemy that's always unpredictable, this enemy that never follows the rules. because if you had a predictable, rational enemy, you'd eventually have to make some type of peace with them because that's actually the rational course of action. But when you have weapons manufacturers,

when you have foreign governments, when you have all kinds of interests shaping the debate in Washington, you don't actually do what's quote unquote the rational policy for U.S. national security interests as narrowly defined. So sorry if that was too rambly of an explanation of the book. No, not at all. I mean, it's interesting because we come at it from different disciplines. I'm a political scientist.

And in the international relations landscape, there was, you know, well, first and foremost, like, American Empire is not really recognized in, like, American political science. But there was this argument that percolated. And, like, I remember going to grad school and learning this is that, like, the United States is hegemonic. and we can like study hierarchy. And there have been political scientists who have studied like global hierarchies. But it's a liberal hegemon and it can't be considered an empire because it does provide these voice opportunities for our subordinates essentially to come and shape policy. And so it's an interesting, not a flip on its head, but it's like kind of a nuanceing of that argument here is like, yeah, they are here and they are shaping policy and shaping kind of. U.S. Empire, which I think, you know, poses some questions about, like, the agency of these

actors, of course, but also, like, what is the broader project of U.S. Empire? Like, yeah, we don't need to think of it all the time as, like, kind of top down in a way. Exactly. There's lots of actors implicated. Or coherent or, right? Right. Or, you know, even the Iran war is a clear example, right? There's been winners and losers, as people in D.C. like to say of this war. Oil companies are reaping the greatest profits of like the last decade because of this war, because of the shortages coming through the Strait of Hormoz, weapons manufacturers are doing really well right now. Private equity and AI are doing well. But the damages that we are now seeing coming out of the production side across the Gulf, including inside Iran, is going

to have very long-term detrimental effects for all of these same industries, paradoxically, but in the short term, they're winning. Meanwhile, everybody else is losing. Food prices are going up. Gas prices are going up. I have a friend who works in research with helium. There's no helium in the world right now. So if you want to go get an MRI, good luck, because there's not much helium. Most of it comes out of this one facility in Qatar. And I was just reading an article about how Qatar has lost so many billions of dollars as a result of this war as a result of the attacks on some of its facilities. And it's like Doha's a ghost town. And I used to live in Doha and for anybody who has, you know, been there or whatever. I mean, Doha like at its best is a ghost town. Like often it is a

ghost town if it's not like a busy season. So like what even does it mean that these places, I can't even fathom what's going to happen long term given the impact of this war. And that was with just 60 days of war. Right. Yeah. So we don't know. It's like in such a short amount of time, the amount of damage it caused is unbelievable. Yeah. Like you said, it's good to start to disentangle who's benefiting in service of which actors here are we attacking Iran. Yeah. And this is like the most corrupt administration imaginable.

It really is like kind of breathtaking the level of corruption. So yeah, hopefully, you know, historians and political scientists and political anthropologists will have years and years of research. to study this moment. All right. Well, is there anything else you think people should keep an eye on when it comes to the situation in Iran? Moving forward, I think we need to be much more critical about who is shaping the narrative on Iran moving forward.

A lot of the figures who are now disavowing the war in these think tanks and saying, you know, war was such a bad idea. Trump fumbled it and this was a terrible idea. had essentially been, I say, hedging for this war for a long time, which is that by constructing Iran as this unknowable enemy, you can't negotiate with an enemy that you can never predict. You can never negotiate with an enemy that lies about everything. These are the narratives that these Iran experts have been advancing for years.

And now we're expected to go and turn back to that same group to get us out of this mess. And that's what I would urge all of the listeners, is being much more critical about who is, analyzing Iran in such a moment. Look at who they work for. Look at what types of analysis they've done in the past. How do they access Iran? How do they know what they know about Iran? It sometimes takes five extra minutes when you're reading a New York Times piece to just go through and highlight who they're quoting as experts, for example. And New York Times has all kinds of problems,

but pick whatever Wall Street Journal, foreign affairs, foreign policy, and just do five minutes of due diligence on who that piece is citing as an expert on Iran. And that's my key takeaway for people. Yeah. That's such a good takeaway. I mean, I think there's so many aspects of our politics in which people are trying to convince us, the same people who got us into these messes are like, all we have. Like Democratic Party operatives that like led us to Trump are the ones like now pretending they really dislike the genocide in Gaza and whatever. And it's the same thing. These Iranian experts, they're not even Iranian sometimes. It's just Iran experts claiming expertise. And it's like the way that you have shaped this discussion is why we're at this point. So yeah, that's a very good takeaway. I appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you so much, Nagar. This has been really enriching. Thank you so much, Dana. I will put all of the things we talked about in the show notes. Does your book have a publication date yet?

No, but I signed the contract. So, good, good. So people be on the lookout. But it will be with Stanford. University Press. So, yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So I will make sure to note that and flag that. Thank you.

Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Of course. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the IHeart Radio app,

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Podcast Network. All month long and all year round, we're celebrating being loud, proud, and always original. It's me, Brandon Kyle Goodman, host of the podcast, Tell Me Something Messy. Check out my show for unfiltered takes on dating, relationships, and adulting. Listen to High Key for the best pop culture takes, and there are no girls on the internet for all your tech news. For your favorite celebrity key keys, check outlaws with T.S. Madison. Learn to love yourself unapologetically with BFF, Black Fat Fem. and start your day with intention with waking up with Ryan coming in July. Celebrate Pride with the Outspoken Network.

Open your free IHeart Radio app. Search Pride and listen now. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health. Because most people out here really.

care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. The biggest what if of my career is what if I didn't get hurt. If you had became an all star that year, we might not even be friends anymore. My name is MC Jen. I'm excited to tell you about laugh, but not least. I'll be chatting with guests from all walks of life like Jeremy Lynn about the power of humor when it comes to facing difficult times, conversations that Remind us all, life is hard, laugh harder. Listen to laugh but not least with MC Jin starting on June 9th on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.