It Could Happen Here - They're Trying to Put Women Into Men's Prisons

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Margaret talks with former prisoner Eric King about conditions for trans people in prison, what the new policies can mean, and how you can help advocate for people on the inside.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then but not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast. Every Wednesday. On the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you go to find your podcast. We want to speak out and we want this to stop. Wow, very powerful. I'm Ellie Flynn, an investigative journalist, and this is my journey deep into the adult entertainment industry. I really wanted to be a playboy, my doll. He was like, I'll take you to the top,

I'll make you a star. To expose an alleged predator and the rotten industry he works in. It's honestly so much worse than I had anticipated. We're an army in comparison to him. From Novel, listen to The Bunny Trap on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Callzone Media. Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart and how to put them back together. I'm your guest host, Margaret Killjoy, and this is an episode about both of those things. Not Margaret and Killjoy, but about things falling apart and putting them back together. If you live in the US, you might have noticed that things are falling apart. In the onslaught of new federal changes over the past few weeks, there is one that is both astoundingly important and also likely to disappear below people's radars because it affects prisoners

transprisoners Prison is the place that society puts people to forget that they exist. It shouldn't be that way Well prisons ought not to be how we solve problems as a society at all But it is the way that things currently are Things that affect prisoners are routinely ignored even though we live in a society built on the idea of incarceration. It's been in the news that us trans people somehow just sort of don't exist anymore. That everyone is either male or female, dictated at birth and immutable. Obviously, this flies in the face of biological and social reality, and it's going to impact

us trans people quite a bit. One group of people that it's going to impact very immediately, very dramatically, and very dangerously is trans prisoners. According to Bureau of Prison Statistics, there are currently 1,529 trans women and 744 trans men held in federal prisons. And not all of them are being held in gender-appropriate prisons already. As we're going to talk about with our guest in a bit, prisoners have to go through an incredible amount of dehumanization in order to have a chance of being placed in the right facility. But now that isn't an option and women are being moved into men's prisons. Does the idea of being a woman in a men's prison scare you? It should.

It's terrifying. It's worse than what you might imagine. One trans woman prisoner who's using a pseudonym for her lawsuit going by Maria Moe has already filed a lawsuit in federal court to stop this new regulation. She is challenging it on both procedural and constitutional grounds. The government didn't go about this in the legal manner, and to house trans women with men goes against the Eighth Amendment, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, as well as the Fifth Amendment's due process clause. I simply can't imagine putting a woman into men's prison as anything other than cruel and

unusual punishment. The state can pretend that trans women aren't women, but the men in prison will not treat her like how they treat a cis man. On January 21st, the woman suing the prison system was told that she was going to be moved to men's prison after all of her records were suddenly changed to mark her male. Federal data says that trans prisoners are sexually assaulted at 10 times the rate of other prisoners. And that's the state's own reporting on the issue. But you know who doesn't know how to effortlessly transition to ads after saying something as

serious as that? It's me. I don't know how to effortlessly transition to ads after giving you a statistic like that. When we come back, we're going to talk about how serious the situation is, but also provide just an absolute incredible number of things that you can do at various levels of risk to support the people whose lives are about to be ruined by this policy change. Lately on the NPR Politics podcast, we're talking about a big question.

How much can one guy change? What will change look like for energy? Drill, baby drill. Schools. Take the Department of Education closer. Healthcare. Better and less expensive. Follow coverage of a changing country.

Promises made, promises kept. We're going to keep our promises. On the NPR Politics Podcast, listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Jon Stewart is back at The Daily Show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into Jon's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives

you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Lari Santos, and to welcome the new year, my podcast, The Happiness Lab, is releasing a series of happiness how-to guides to help you in 2025. I'll distill the wisdom of world-class experts into easy-to-digest, actionable tips. It's about never feeling good enough. I feel like I'm always failing. You'll learn how to handle relationships,

how to be inspiring, and how to find your purpose. We make it this big pie in the sky thing, and then of course we're all frustrated because no one knows how to get there. Struggling with tough emotions? We have a how-to guide. Worried that you're not enough? We got you.

Self-obsessed and want to get over yourself? There's a guide-to guide. Worried that you're not enough? We got you. Self-obsessed and want to get over yourself? There's a guide for that too. The ability to approach somebody and make them experience desire for you in minutes or even hours is a rare and rather unnecessary skill, historically speaking. The Happiest Labs how-to season starts January 1st. Listen on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We want to speak out, we want to raise awareness, and we want this to stop.

Wow. Very powerful. I'm Ellie Flynn, and I'm an investigative journalist. When a group of models from the UK wanted my help, I went on a journey deep into the heart of the adult entertainment industry. I really wanted to be a playboy, my dog. Lingerie, topless. I said, yes, please.

Because at the center of this murky world is an alleged predator. You know who he is because of his pattern of behavior. He's just spinning the web for you to get trapped in it. He's everywhere and has been everywhere. It's so much worse and so much more widespread than I had anticipated. Together, we're going to expose him and the rotten industry he works in. It's not just me. We're an army in comparison to him. Listen to The Bunny Trap on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, and we're back. So to talk about how trans people fare in prison, I have brought on my friend with the most experienced in prison, the former political prisoner Eric King. Eric served just shy of 10 years in prison for throwing a Molotov into an empty federal building one night in response to the Ferguson uprising of 2014. Those were protests that were anti-police protests that started in the wake of the police killing of 18-year-old black man Michael Brown. Eric is also the co-editor of a book called Rattling the Cages, Oral Histories of North

American Political Prisoners, which has a foreword by none other than Angela Davis and is worth checking out. Eric was released from the ADX Supermax in December 2023. He walked out of prison wearing a support trans kid shirt and has been vocal about his support for us as soon as he walked out the door. So Eric, thanks for coming on It Could Happen Here. How are you? I'm doing really well. Glad to be back. Thank you so much. Yeah. So, you reached out to me about this, what would you call it, like a policy change? Yeah. Executive order, I guess. Yeah. You know, and basically we talked about like, how do we try and make sure

Yeah, you know, and basically we talked about like, how do we try and make sure that people know about what's happening? And I wanted to ask you, so you're a cis man and you didn't have an easy time in prison, right? As far as I understand, no, I think no one gets to have an easy time in prison is one of the things, especially in a supermax. Some other easier than others, I guess. Yeah. You were not amongmax. Some have it easier than others, I guess. Yeah. You were not among the people who had it easier.

And as I would follow your journey through the federal prison system, it seems like you had to defend yourself against both other prisoners and also prison staff. Is that a fair way to put it? Mildly, yeah. Yes, that was what was going on. Can you tell me a bit about the experience of trans people in prison? Because when you look at this executive order, it sort of implies like all trans women are in women's prison and all trans men, actually, I literally have no idea where trans men are

held. I would rather if I was a trans man, I'd probably rather be in women's prison. I just anyway, I don't know. What was the situation like before this executive order? So I want to start with saying like, the reason I hit you up is because there's so much, like, horror happening this first week of, like, Trump's new presidency. And I didn't want this issue to get swept under the rug. Yeah.

A lot of times the bigger, more mainstream issues will get the most attention. And I still remember our trans family inside. And so like that's what scared me enough to go like, dude, I need to talk to you about this. Yeah. So when I was inside, there was not very many trans people in their like correct prison. Okay. Like a trans woman should be in a women's prison. A trans man should be in a man's prison. And that wasn't happening on the level that it should have. And there was a rare case like Marius Mason, who had enough support, enough publicity,

for they were able to, but most people were stuck at their gender at birth. And so over the last couple of years, people started getting a lot more access to safe prisons. That's what I'll call them, prisons where they feel safest. Okay. So trans women were starting to go to women's prisons. And it wasn't very many. It's not like there's tens of thousands, but handfuls.

Because it's very hard in the federal system to get recognized as a transgender person. Yeah. You have to go through years of degrading and humiliating therapy with a prison psychologist. You have to get just horribly treated by doctors who ignore you, gaslight you, diminish you, try to push Christianity on you. And then if you make it through their brutality, then you were one of the lucky ones who got to say like, I am this person, this is who I am. And if you're even more lucky, you got to be transferred to a prison that would

make you feel the safest and the most whole as a human. And that's the goal. Like that's the safety goal, basically. That's where we wanted things to be pushed, that people would be recognized for who they are, they would get treated for who they were, and they would be sent to a prison that was congruent with who they were.

And that's what's all being taken away. Yeah. And when you talk about the safety, I don't wanna like necessarily go on at great length about how trans women suffer in men's prisons, but it's probably worth talking about. Because you've described it as there's literal sexual slavery happening in the prisons. Is that a fair way to put it? Yeah, 110%.

Yes. Yes. And I only speak for federal prisons. I know in some states it's different. Like in some states, people are able to use like their femininity as like a power play as a tool to keep themselves safe. And so if that's an option, then great. But what I witnessed in the federal prison was the exact opposite of that. People are getting destroyed.

And if you go into a men's prison presenting as female in any way or soft in any way or as any type of woman or any type of non-cis straight male, you are an automatic target. And it's not like hyperbole to say that if you walked on to a penitentiary yard and you had makeup, if you had your hair long, if you had breast, if you had anything presenting as female, you will get butchered within an hour. You won't survive that. Or you'll get bought by some group and you will be a slave. You will be property. And at the lower custody levels, it's a lot safer. If you're at a low security like FCI Inglewood, you're not in danger though.

You're a danger of humiliation and being degraded by staff, but you're not going to get stabbed there. But God forbid you go to Victorville medium, Florence medium, or any penitentiary. Like that's a death sentence for real. Yeah. Do you want to talk about the worst things that ever happened to you? Do you want to talk about, uh, you and I, we did another episode on my other podcast, Live Like the World is Dying, talking about how to survive prison.

And in it, you talked a little bit about what was necessary to kind of stand up for trans prisoners. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah. So like everyone needs to have like consequence awareness and they need to work on the lines that like make them feel most comfortable, of course. But for me, I was not comfortable at all watching trans or gay prisoners get brutalized. And so there were times where we'd have to raise money to buy a prisoner out of sex slavery. Yeah. We'd have to raise money to buy a prisoner out of sex slavery. Yeah, we just have to buy them and then basically free them or pay off whatever debt they owed so that they no longer have to be in that situation. And there was other times that you have to knife up or you have to show up physically. And I'm not a big guy, of course, but like I don't tolerate like anti-trans bullshit in my life anywhere and that includes in prison.

And so like there are times you have to step to people and say like, I am not going to let this person have this happen to them. And if you want to continue doing this, then like we're going to take it to the next level. And I wish to God there was more prison allies that would be willing to do that inside. Because once someone is shown to have like support, it makes them less easy to be a victim. Yeah. If people see that like this person's trans or like other people are riding

with them, they're less likely to go after them because there'll be consequences. But if they're all alone, then they're just a sitting duck. Yeah. And so like, we need that. We need cis men to show up and be like, this is not happening. I don't care what race you are. I don't care what gang you're in. You're not going to hurt this person. And that's stuff that we had to do sometimes and it's scary as shit. Yeah. Because you don't know what's going to happen, but you have to, like, you have to live your ethics.

One of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you about it and have you on this show is because unfortunately, I mean, prison is kind a a concentration of the worst parts of society I do not want to say the worst people in society I believe it has much more to do with the incarceration and the way that people are forced to be right when they're incarcerated There's a tangent, but have you heard the whole thing where there's no such thing as an alpha male wolf in the wild? I've only heard from you and I loved it. Okay, I probably said this exact same thing last time we talked. Just in captivity. Yeah.

And so it's like it obviously is going to bring out the worst in people. One of the reasons I want to have you want to talk about this is because I think that the experiences that you're talking about, they're much more real and intense than most people on the outside are like, really thinking. You know, they're like, oh, that sounds bad. But then their brain kind of turns off and they stop imagining what bad looks like. And I think that this idea that we're going to have to stand up for our ethics, regardless

of the risk and cost to ourselves sometimes is what it takes to create a society that is resistant to fascism. I think it's the same energy that people are going to have to do with like, no, you can't take my neighbors, right? In the era of ICE. I think that's really well said too. I think the way like I used to work inside is like we can't take steps backwards. We can't relinquish any progress we've made, not a single pinch of it.

Like everything has to move forward. And whatever you're capable of doing, like not everyone's capable of like physically stepping to someone and saying like, no, right. But everyone's capable of something. Whether that's doing calling campaigns, organizing protests outside of prison, whether it's contacting region, contacting this person, raising money, doing whatever it takes. Everyone can do something to keep people safe.

And it's the same in the free world. Like it's not different. Everyone has something to offer, but it can't be apathy. It can't be this nihilism that like, what does it matter? Like they're going to do it anyway. If we do that, like we're just forfeiting the future and we're letting our, our family get butchered. Yeah. I really like that way of phrasing it. Yeah, we can't forfeit the future How can people support? trans prisoners With what's going on right now? I don't know how in touch you are with with people on the inside and things like that How are people feeling like what's the vibe what can be done? So I assume like when you're asking like what can people do to support trans prisoners

I like I assume you're asking like what can free world people do to support those inside? Yeah. I mean, you actually kind of have said what people on the inside can do already, which is necessary and important, but people on the outside, what can people do? Visibility is safety. Like I saw that in my bid and I've seen that in other people's bids. And if you look at someone like Marius Mason, if you look at people like Jennifer Rose, keeping people visible and letting the prison know that we're not turning a blind eye to this person,

like you're not gonna get a free one on them, that keeps people alive. And so the more the staff knows and the administration knows that like, this person is looked after, the more they are likely to look after them because they don't wanna be held accountable. So things like getting books into people,

things like getting pen pals of people, raising money so that they don't have to go into debt. Like that's real, like this debt stuff is serious. So making sure they have money on their books. Like I don't care what they spend it on. I don't care if they spend it on drugs. I don't care if they spend it on 20 bags of coffee or gambling.

As long as it keeps them out of slavery or out of that knife, like that's what matters. And then passing names around, like it's almost as if we concentrate like all of our prisons were like five or six people. And then we forget that there's like 15,000 trans people in prison. And so organizations like Black and Pink do a really amazing job. But like there's not enough. Like we need visibility. Like we need to keep people present in our lives that we

don't know. And we might not like their charges. They might not be nice people. Like they might not be cool. Yeah. But we need to keep them alive. Like that's what abolition is. So visibility. Yeah. That makes sense. I sort of know the answer to this. But I'm gonna pretend like I don't know it at all. What's Black and Pink? Black and Pink is an organization. I know it used to be an anarchist organization. It might be something else now. But it's an organization that's focused strictly on supporting trans and queer prisoners. That's all they do. Social prisoners, political prisoners, it doesn't matter.

We're going to find you a pen pal and we're going to get people to write you. And they do a really amazing job. Like I honor them for putting in that work because it's hard. And so someone who's listening, who's never considered being pen pals of the prisoner could get in touch with black and pink and be hooked up with someone to write to. Yeah. If you like, even just like right now, someone Googled black and pink pen pal,

black and pink prison pen pal. It'll pop up the website. You just click on find a pen pal and you can find someone in your city. Find someone in your state, find someone back to relate to like the level of biography and you can find someone like to connect with and potentially save their life or save your life. Yeah. I can make you better too.

Yeah. Okay. So writing helps when you talk about putting money on people's books. Like who does that? Is that something you also could go through black and pink? Should people be doing their own fundraisers and then like working with prisoners that they've already made connections with? Like how should people either plug in or start things? So each prison is different, like state and federal, but to put money on someone's books, you can do that yourself.

You go, you find out wherever prison that person's at and you can just go to the DOP website or that prison's website. DOP is Bureau of Prisons. It's for federal people. And it will just walk you through how to do it, how to send the money ground from Walmart or how to do the J-Pay and put it on through your credit card. And you can do it. Like, if there's an ABC and anarchist black cross community near you, you can fundraise with them. If there's any like books through bars or abolitionist groups near you, like you can and should fundraise with them to raise awareness, but you don't have to. Like everyone can do this on your own. Like this is a single person job, but it's better if we do it as a community. Well, the way that I fundraise is that I have advertisers that interrupt me talking

about anti-capitalist things. And here's one of those interruptions. And I'm going to go ahead and donate my pay for this episode to exactly what we're talking about. And here's ads. They are not donating. You can think of whatever you want about these ads. Lately on the NPR politics podcast, we're talking about a big question. How much can

one guy change? What will change look like for energy, schools, healthcare, follow coverage education follows it. Health care. Better and less expensive. Follow coverage of a changing country. Promises made, promises kept. We're going to keep our promises. On the NPR Politics Podcast. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Catch Jon Stewart back in action on The Daily Show and In Your Ears with The Daily Show Ears Edition podcast.

From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners, like in-depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Lari Santos, and to welcome the new year, my podcast, The Happiness Lab, is releasing a series of happiness how-to guides to help you in 2025. I'll distill the wisdom of world-class experts into easy-to-digest actionable tips.

It's about never feeling good enough. I feel like I'm always failing. You'll learn how to handle relationships, how to be inspiring, and how to find your purpose. We make it this big pie-in-the-sky thing, and then of course we're all frustrated because no one knows how to get there. Struggling with tough emotions? We have a how-to guide. Worried that you're not enough?

We got you. Self-obsessed and want to get over yourself? There's a guide for that too. The ability to approach somebody and make them experience desire for you in minutes or even hours is a rare and rather unnecessary skill, historically speaking. The Happiest Labs how-to season starts January 1st. The Happiest Labs How To Season starts January 1st. Listen on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We want to speak out, we want to raise awareness, and we want this to stop. Wow, very powerful. I'm Ellie Flynn, and I'm an investigative journalist.

When a group of models from the UK wanted my help, I went on a journey deep into the heart of the adult entertainment industry. I really wanted to be a Playboy model. Lingerie, topless. I said, yes, please. Because at the center of this murky world is an alleged predator. You know who he is because of his pattern of behavior. He's just spinning the web for you to get trapped in it.

He's everywhere and the web for you to get trapped in it. He's everywhere and has been everywhere. It's so much worse and so much more widespread than I had anticipated. Together, we're going to expose him and the rotten industry he works in. It's not just me. We're an army in comparison to him. Listen to The Bunny Trap on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Okay, with this new executive order, like, how are people feeling? Be either inside or people who are doing prison abolition work or like, how crisis does this feel? Like what's going on?

I can't like speak for every, it should kill like a 10 out of 10. Yeah. Like this is a carceral genocide. Yeah. For real. This is an erasure of an entire people. So like if you're not at a 10 for this, like you either do not care or you're not understanding how serious the prison system is.

I've talked to a couple of homies inside. I have to be really delicate because I'm still on probation. But those people understand like the mood is turning dark. Okay. They see inside that when fascists come into power, it empowers everyone else below them to be brutal. Because they can get away with it now. And so these people that were already monsters under the most liberal of prison directors are now being told by the

president that they do not have to respect this person's entire life. And so it's a very serious situation. We've got a non-binary person about to go in named Casey Gunnan and they got sentenced for allegedly firebombing some cop cars and support with Palestine. And I talk with them on a weekly basis, just trying to prepare them because like right now where they're at is a jail and they haven't really experienced the prison yet and so it's all about like getting them ready for like here are potentials. Yeah. Like here's what they could do but it's dark in there like the Nazis are are celebrating and that includes the ones with badges especially. Yeah that makes sense.

What kind of support felt the most useful to you and other prisoners? I know you talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious about, you talk about visibility. Are protests outside of jails, do they make people feel good and welcome, or does it make the guards crack down on everyone? I know that there's this habit of noise demonstrations

every New Year's, and what kind of stuff felt good's and what kind of stuff felt good and what kind of stuff felt good but scary and what kind of stuff was just annoying? Like, I don't know, I'm just trying to find more stuff that people can do. Yeah, the noise demos are cool, but they're performative. It's more for the people that are doing them than the people inside.

But like, let's say you're a trans person at a jail and there's 35 people outside waving your banner, that will get you respect inside. They'll get people to say like, let's say you're a trans person out of jail and there's 35 people outside waving your banner, that will get you respect inside. They'll get people to say like, what the hell is going on with them? Okay. Yeah, like that is that's serious to where you can build up a rep. If someone's already in prison, that's you'll probably get them fucked up and put in the shoe. That's what happened to me.

If there's a noise demonstration with your name. Yeah. Yeah. Be delicate how you do it. Yeah. Because that's what put me in ADX. Oh shit. So that's a real, that's a real double edged sword, right? Yeah.

They use that as the, as the thing saying I was the leader of Antifa because I got people to come out and protest for me. So I got pulled without a chapeau. Oh, we shouldn't tell everyone that you're the, we have to keep it on the DL that you're the leader of Antifa. Yeah.

Uh. For real, we dropped the ball. I know. Wait, I've been told I're the leader of Antifa. Yeah. For real, we dropped the ball. I know. Wait, I've been told I'm the leader of Antifa. You're my leader. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah.

I'm more a regional leader. The things that help the most like in a real life situation are the things that provide mental safety and something to do. Okay. So books, magazines, that gives you something to do, like empower yourself and pass the time and stay out of the way. Money helps because then you can do crafts, you can paint, you can do art,

you can sell things, you can do crochet. That stuff helps. And then letters, obviously like that gives you someone to talk to if people are actually putting thought into the letters. And I always encourage, and I always will for as many people as possible to on a daily or weekly basis call that prison. Call the prison no matter what prison state, federal, county and demand to speak with the warden, the captain, the warden secretary, the lieutenant, the head of psychology and

demand to know how is this person doing? What are you doing to keep them safe? We're hearing this in this, what is going to happen to our family? That makes a difference. Okay. If you know a lawyer, pay the $120 an hour to have them do a legal call. That way the prison sees this person as a lawyer protecting them. They don't need to know that it's just a one-time call.

Yeah. But that legal call, just the wellness check is what they call it. Mm-hmm. Let's that person get word out about what dangerous stuff is happening, but it also forces the prison to recognize that they might be protected by legal system. Okay. So these things help. Yeah. What's the master plan here for how we're going to respond to this executive order?

Because obviously, we're not necessarily in a position to immediately reverse this order and get women put into women's prison, which is a crazy thing to have to say. We're not going to be able to get women put into women's prisons, but is organizing with a local group. You create a group and you basically like figure out who the local trans prisoners are in your area and make sure that you're communicating with them and that they're getting wellness calls from lawyers and, and basically like just making sure that the, the prison knows that people are paying attention to the fact that there's now women in the men's prison. Is that?

That's the soft version of what we should do. Yeah, fair enough. There's other versions that are. Yeah. Okay. There's the other version that like, I wish people would do. Yeah. There's a version where we do BDS, but for every single company that's benefiting from

prison labor and say, as long as you let this transgender hate go on, we're not going to support your business. There's boycotting, there's putting people on the road so that the cops can't show up to their jobs. There's protesting outside wardens houses. There's protesting outside governor's houses, if it's for a state prison. There is tangibly putting your body on the line. There is sabotaging cop cars that go into the prison.

There is barricading the entrances. There's a thousand things we can do to say, if you hurt our people, we're hurting you. Whether it's in your pocket, whether it's in your car, whether it's in your daily life, whether it's annoying you, we can find things to do if we care enough. And we saw people do it for Palestine. And I don't think transgender lives are less important than Palestinian lives. Yeah. It has to be an equal thing in my mind.

Yeah. But the stuff you said is really great too. That's like, that's daily stuff. No, no, but you're right. And it's like, it's funny because it's like in my mind, it's so hard to ring the alarm bells when all of the alarm bells are ringing and everyone's kind of ignoring alarm bells right now. I mean, I guess the answer is that we talk about it like this, but like how do we make sure that people actually listen to the

alarm bells that are happening right now? And I think part of it is being really unfortunately brutally honest about what it's like to be a woman in men's prison. I mean, I don't think people understand at all. And yeah, there's all this misinformation to like, you'll hear these like fascist talking points coming out of liberals mouths to where like, well, I don't want my tax dollars going to like pay for their surgery or I don't want some man just sneaking into a woman's prison saying he's transgender so he can rape everyone.

And these are like the same scare tactics and like misinformation that's used for every single like every single repression you've ever seen. And it's our job to confront those head on and call them out as lies. Show, show the real information. And it's our job to like continue to just force people to recognize that this is a dangerous and real situation. Yeah.

We can't let this entire group of people be destroyed because like, if you're going to turn your blind eye to transgender people, you're going to do it to gay people people you're going to do it to gay people you're going to do it to women you're going to do it to black people and then it's just you yeah and then no one's going to protect your stupid ass yeah we have to as or as i have to as a cis man we have to keep bringing this belt yeah we have to make people listen i mean as a as a not currently in prison trans woman like like one of the reasons I think this almost happens, I mean, it happens because of cruelty is the point, but like it's terrifying.

You've actually experienced the thing that's terrifying. It is terrifying the idea of going into prison in the United States, especially maximum security prison, potentially especially men's prison, both as a man or a trans woman, I wouldn't want to be in men's prison. And I don't even want to compare it by the way. It's not comparable.

Like if I didn't have Antifa attached on my face, I could walk into any prison in the country and be like, oh, there's just a white guy. It's just a white bro. Have no problems. A transgender person, there's not a single place except for a protective custody yard where they can walk in and immediately feel safe.

It's the exact opposite. Everywhere they go is fight or flight. The scariest moment you've ever had your entire life. 24-7 all day every day. Yeah. Picture someone breaking into your home in the middle of the night and that terror you get. They have to walk into a new prison every single time and face that terror every single day. Yeah.

It's not comparable at all. It's scary as shit. No, that's fair. Like to be honest, like I think about this is like maybe more honest than I'm usually am on this podcast. Like, you know, I don't do as much frontline activism as I did and part of that's like, oh, I'm like aging and I have other work that I do and part of it's like I came out as trans, you know? Part of it is like, I never liked the idea of like, because I always was trans and the idea of like

being surrounded by only men was just viscerally terrifying. But now in particular, like it's just such a, it's a mind fuck. It's terrifying and you know, I feel like one of my like main roles is to try and help people be like, look, we're, we're in this together enough that you should be scared, but you should get through the fear. But it's like, the fear of prison is like such a, I mean, it's part of the reason that people say like no one is free until everyone is free. As long as there is a single person in prison, you are not free because your freedom can

be taken away from you at any point. And that fear of prison, it's funny. Okay, I'm almost done with this rant. You know, people have kind of like figured out at this point that like certain branches of Christianity will use the fear of hell to force people to be good by their definition of good, right? And it's a scare tactic. It's terrorism. It is like a, you know, you better behave or infinite suffering awaits you. But then even the people who are critical of that haven't necessarily wrapped their

head around that. The existence of prisons, especially the existence of punitive prisons like the sort of Theoretical perfect model of the Norwegian prison or whatever where you're just sort of separated from society Which I suspect is not actually I suspect Norwegian prison actually kind of sucks But the American prison system is a prison system that exists to make you on the outside Not feel free like because it can be taken away from you and you can be thrown in prison. That's my rant. Yeah.

I mean, you're absolutely right. Like that is the entire goal is to make sure that the community walks the government line, because if you don't, this is what will happen to you. And when people pull like the nonsense of like, well, if you're not committing crimes, you shouldn't worry about it. Like they are not looking at how like arbitrary crimes are. They're not looking at how quickly something can become a crime or how quickly something

that wasn't a crime can be portrayed as one. And the trans struggle, like trans people should not have to be on the front line. Like at no point should you or any of our trans family ever have to like put their freedom on the line. Like that is, that's a privilege role. Like that's our role, my role. And my boss shouldn't have to get arrested for trans liberation.

Like they should be safe. Like they should be able to feel comfort and warmth. You should be able to feel that safe and warmth and love. Like black people shouldn't be fighting the black liberation fight. That's white people's fight. Trans people should not have to put their vulnerable lives on the line for for this struggle if we really believe in in the liberation struggle. Yeah, and it's and it's hard because you also want to like,

well, also not wanting to like lead that struggle, right? Like I think that like white people putting themselves on the line for black liberation is like super important, but then obviously you can get into there's the hero shit and Yeah. Trying to take leadership. Yeah. Do the David Gilbert role. Be a soldier, how they need you and help and fight how people actually need you. Yeah.

Not how you think it should be done. Yeah, totally. Well, any last words for our audience around this particular issue? Yeah, here in Denver, Brenn Rose's legal center. That's who I work for. It's a transgender ran civil rights law firm. We're about to put forward the, uh, trans bill of rights here in Colorado to guarantee safety.

And I bring that up to say that not only is there direct action and protests we can do, we can also try to weasel into the legal system. Yeah. There's a thousand ways we can fight these motherfuckers. And we got to use every single one of them. Yeah. And I have nothing but love and solidarity for every transgender person alive anywhere.

And I'm with you. And we're going to get through this, I hope. We are going to get through it. Because even as individuals, we might not, right? But that's just true about being alive, right? Literally, none of us are going to get through being alive, right? Literally none of us are gonna get through being alive, alive, right? At some point that's gonna stop working for us.

And they can't get rid of us. We have always been here. We will always be here. As long as there are humans, there are going to be trans people, there are going to be queer people, there are going to be... All of the identities that they're trying to destroy

cannot be destroyed, even if us as individuals might. But again, we weren't going to get out of life alive anyway. That's what I hold on to. I don't know about everyone who's listening, but the thing that I hold on to is just literally I was like, well, I wasn't, I'm not immortal. You know, got a time limit. Yeah. And all we can do is to say, go back to one of the first things that you said, we just

kind of can't compromise our ethics. You know, like, there's like balancing acts right where you have to think like well I probably shouldn't do something where I like while out and get myself killed and accomplish nothing fight to win yeah exactly and some of fighting to win is knowing when not to fight and things like that right but but not in a secretly you're just actually doing it at a cowardice way you actually like have to be strategically being like, where and when should I engage in what ways? And there are so many different ways that people can engage. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. And do you want to

talk about your book? So, Rather Than The Cages is out right now. It's with AK Press and it is a oral history of the political prisoner movement pulled from the mouths of those prisoners. It covers like 50 or so prisoners from every movement, black, trans, our elders, our more recent anti-fascists. And it is a beautiful way not just to hear about like, oh, I fought for this. But what was my life like inside? What did I experience? What gave me joy? What gave me hope? What gave me sadness? And it's a way to see the vulnerability and humanity of those inside. And I think that's really valuable right now. And here soon, my ADX book is coming out on the EMPRESS. Oh, cool.

So I'll be, I'll be hounding you for that here soon for that coverage. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, what's that book called or about? It's going to be called A Clean Hell. And it's going to be about how I won at trial. Cause like no one does that in the feds. 0.08% of people win in federal trial. And then how I got sent to the federal super max and there's no books out about the super max.

There's none. Wow. And so one of your homies has a, has the inside scoop. Yeah. I got some experience. Yeah. You were just a undercover journalist, Just a real deep undercover solitary confinement. So, Josh Davidson is helping me edit it.

Josh Davidson from Rather Than The Cages who did Also Certain Days. So it's been a really great project also. Awesome. All right. Well, people should check out both of those things and take care of people inside. And I hope that we'll have you on again soon. Yay. Thank you so much. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

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