It Could Happen Here - Third Places ft. Andrew

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Andrew and Gare discuss the disappearance of third places in our increasingly suburban society.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso

as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead,

now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking music, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and

some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories, combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Calls on Media. Welcome to Que Rappen Here. I'm Andrew Sage from the YouTube channel I'm Drewism. Call Zone Media Now, love them or hate them, cities are here to stay. And if you spend any time on urban planning YouTube or really just looked around, you know they have some issues.

Traffic congestion is a big one, a notorious nemesis of modern cities stemming from increased population, poor urban planning and excessive vehicle usage, creating a big waste of time and straining our well-being. There are also issues of physical and mental health among city inhabitants. The environmental impact of urban areas can be quite terrible. Housing issues seem to be globally hellish, but still people flock to cities because that's where the opportunities are, hence the growth of slums and the overall strain on infrastructure like utilities and transportation and the functionality of cities many of which are currently well above their capacity of course many of these issues just don't touch the wealthy in the same way within the city's gleaming skyscrapers lie stark disparities in income access to to resources, and opportunities.

And for another issue more relevant to our discussion here, in the midst of a crowd, urban dwellers often grapple with feelings of loneliness and disconnection. The paradox of being surrounded by people, yet feeling totally alone. In his seminal work, The Great Good Good Place published in 1989, American sociologist Ray Olinberg presents a captivating notion for a balanced and fulfilling life, a harmony among the three spheres, the home, the workplace and the realm of third places. These third places encompass inclusive social settings, crucial for community bonding and foster meaningful interactions. Now, as for what qualifies a third place, common examples come to mind.

Cafes, pubs, stoops, parks. However, not every cafe, pub, stoop, or park captures the essence of a true third place, as Olinburg described it. Historically, third places have been a powerful force in shaping the course of revolutions and cultural movements. During the American Revolution, the tavern was a vital hub for political discourse. In the French Revolution, the café was a crucial meeting place for the revolutionary intelligentsia and common people.

During the Enlightenment, coffeehouses in London assumed a central role in fostering the intellectual and cultural transformation of society. And during the Harlem Renaissance, third places could be found in theatres, churches, jazz cafes, and more, serving as vital havens for African-American musicians, writers, and intellectuals that sought to develop and celebrate their cultural identity. Olinberg outlines eight key characteristics that define the allure of these communal spaces. He takes a rather strict approach, and this is key, emphasizing that his description excludes the majority of venues, even if they exhibit some of these defining traits.

And I suppose you can argue with that, but I think that's a quibble I've had with the discussions about third places. Because people seem to be more infatuated with the vague idea of them and not so much interested in what the term has actually been coined to describe. So you end up with people labelling all sorts of spaces, clubs and organisations third places, even if they don't fit the criteria. clubs and organizations third places even if they don't fit the criteria. At this point the internet has seemingly lost the plot on third places and it's taken a life on its own independent of what Oldenburg intended but he's dead his book is still around but I don't think a lot of people have read it but I did in preparation for this and so we'll delve into some of those characteristics now. But I did in preparation for this, and so we'll delve into some of those characteristics now.

For one, a third place lies on neutral ground. No one is expected to play host for the others, no one is obligated to be there, and people are comfortable and free to come and go as they please. Third places are spaces where people can just be, where opportunities can exist for fraternization in a safe public setting that can't be found in the privacy of the home or the professional boundary of the workplace. A space where a variety of relationships can blossom, including the ones that don't go any deeper than friendly public encounters. Secondly, the third place is a level in place. It requires no formal criteria for membership, it places no emphasis on one's

social status, and provides the possibility for people of a variety of backgrounds and experiences to associate on the merit of their personality alone. Within third places, people can find friendships with those whom under ordinary circumstances they might never cross paths. The third characteristic of a third place is that it is a place in which conversation is meant to be the main activity. It doesn't have to be the only activity. For example, card games or pool or dominoes make for an excellent social lubricant. But the space should be comfortable enough to facilitate pleasurable, light-hearted and

entertaining conversation. Now, it's not difficult to create a space that can facilitate good conversation, but it's also easy to ruin the flow of good conversation. Music, personal screens, egotistical people, they can all be quite ruinous to the social energy that a good third place tries to foster. Fourthly, third places need to be open and readily accessible. That means being accessible in the sense of being in a convenient location and open whenever the demons of loneliness or boredom strike or when the depressions and frustrations of the day

call for relaxation amid good company. In other words, third places are available when people need them to be. Now, the form of accessibility that Oldenburg describes is not the form of accessibility that disability justice advocates fight for. And that is one of the quibbles that I have with Oldenburg's conception of third places that disability justice advocates fight for. And that is one of the quibbles that I have with Ortenberg's conception of third places that I'll get into later. Next, third places are given their appeal by their regulars, who help set the mood of the space and provide a welcoming environment for newcomers. Every regular was once a newcomer,

and the acceptance of newcomers is essential to the sustained vitality of the third place. Sixth, third places keep a low profile. They're not exclusive, extravagant, pretentious, or overly fancy. They're not usually openly advertised, and they tend to be older places with a modest or even seedy atmosphere. They're certainly not tourist traps. Seventh, and we're almost done, third places have a playful mood.

People go to third places for the banter and the laughter, not tension and hostility. So that's what the space is set up to encourage. And lastly, number eight, third places are meant to be a home away from home, offering a sense of intimacy, regeneration, and community that puts people at ease in a warm and friendly atmosphere. So to summarize, third places exist on neutral ground, function as equalizers of social status, provide an environment where conversations are at the center, keep a low profile, are open and accommodating, have an essence shaped by their regulars, characterized by playfulness and a sense of home away from home. Third places, with their unique characteristics,

present an array of advantages. They not only enhance an individual's social and conversational skills, but also foster a sense of genuine connection and belonging within the community. Third places are a respite from the monotony of daily life under the weight of modern capitalism. They inject much-needed novelty into our routines, offering a diverse and free-flowing atmosphere that stands apart from the rigidity of our daily grind. They're a balm for emotional well-being, a spiritual tonic, and they allow us to tap into our creative and expressive selves. Crucially, Third Places offer what Oldenburg coined as friends by the set. They provide convenient spaces for social gatherings, offering routine and reliable interactions with a diverse array of individuals, both casually and intimately, without the hassle

of scheduling meetups. Unfortunately, third places kind of fell off in many areas. Obviously, not everywhere, but especially in places where American-style urban sprawl and suburbia has proliferated. I've been describing the characteristics and benefits and historical potency of these spaces, but I've only gotten small taste of some of these myself. And for a lot of people, I think particularly of my generation, besides perhaps the approximate experience of a college common room, third places are a distant cultural memory, not a lived experience. So Oldenburg basically asks, what's up with that?

And according to him, the blame for this vanishing out falls squarely on the suburbs. falls squarely on the suburbs. These sprawling enclaves prioritized private abodes over public spaces, perpetuating an isolating narrative that confines the good life within individual homes and yards. Suburban designs, often imposed by distant developers, stifle community connections. Few opportunities exist within them for organic social interaction beyond your immediate neighbours. The car-centric layout further thwarts the revival of third places, as reliance on cars diminishes chance encounters and informal gathering spots along daily routes, fostering a culture of detachment among neighbors. But it's not just the suburbs that are suffering this issue. Urban environments too have succumbed to efficiency and profit, sacrificing space for genuine human

connection. Standardized franchise chains dominate, erasing the character and charm that encourage communal interaction, replacing it with sterile environments. And technology hasn't exactly aided third places either, as the allure of the internet has been a substitute for real-life interaction that tends to keep people indoors. Sure, you can see the internet as the frontier for new third places, and in some ways they are, but not quite in the same way. And of course, I mean, let's call it out, even though Oldenburg doesn't, capitalism plays a significant role in the decline of third places. Work-life imbalances leave scant time for social engagements. The relentless commercialization, privatization of public spaces, gentrification, closing traditional hubs,

and profit-driven urban designs all contribute to this decline. The disappearance of third places isn't an accident of history, but a consequence of our modern societal choices and systemic pressures. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities,

artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars from actors and artists to musicians and creators sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like

identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished

and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things

that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. You look like a little angel. I mean, you look so fresh.

And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba.

Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzales wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban,

I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Wilming's ideas have been catching on a lot lately, especially with younger generations.

Like I said, it's this distant yet learned cultural memory. For obvious reasons though, things kinda suck right now and a lot of people are taking a half understood grasp of the concept and running wild with it. Like for example, I also see some people just blanket applying the internet as the new third place. And while there are corners of the internet that do approximate that experience, and I recognise the potential of virtual spaces such as Discord to embody the characteristics of third places, I firmly believe that virtual third places lack the tangible elements inherent in traditional spaces that are essential for fostering deep emotional connections and empathy that are vital for healthy community life.

These social media platforms, particularly sites like Twitter, often lack the authenticity and nuanced communication present in face-to-face interactions. That's by design of course, Twitter thrives on on conflict that's why i'm not there anymore but it's all too easy on sites like those to misinterpret intentions or to use anonymity for negative interactions like cyberbullying trolling or online harassment in real life trolls get kicked out bullies in some cases are dealt with people who are harassing people also tend to get kicked out, but online all those things often run rampant. Moreover, the permanence of online interactions

can hinder the relaxed vulnerability often experienced in traditional spaces, as everything is recorded, which makes trust easier to breach. which makes trust easier to breach. But despite my critique of how some people have been running with the term third places, I think the actual book and its concepts do deserve further scrutiny and, in my view, radicalization. Wollenberg's idea of the home, the workplace, and the third place is a sort of a pecking order. It also really sidelines domestic labor as like not really work as if it's separate from the workplace and i also don't like the idea of where it could be in prioritized over like essential social interaction i think there's also the interesting aspect now that for a lot of people like like myself included, work and home are now the same spot.

Indeed. Ever since the pandemic, there's been a large surge in people working from home, which kind of complicates this dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. Pre-industrialization, I think especially, that idea also coincided.

The first and the second place, the home and the workplace were also a bit blurred. And now I think we're witnessing a similar blurring today, you know, post-industrialization and as a consequence of the pandemic, with remote work really catching on and blurring those lines, for sure. I think another major oversight in Oldenburg's work is the gender bias within historical and contemporary third places. These spaces have been predominantly male-dominated or gender-segregated.

I think his nostalgia for third places, which you kind of pick up on in the book, neglects the historical limitations women face in accessing these spaces. historical limitations women face in accessing these spaces. So I think if three places were to make a resurgence, we would definitely need to address these systemic barriers, like the double shift that many women juggle, to ensure their inclusion in future three places. I think another critique I would have is on ownership control. You know, third spaces are touted as neutral,

but when they're operating under the whims of private owners or state authorities they very easily succumb to those profit-driven motives i don't think a community space a space that is to be sent that is central to a community should be so concentrated in the hands of private developers or private owners. I think those spaces are the types that should be collectively stewarded. There's also the cost barrier of food places, you know, due to financial constraints and everybody's able to, you know, spend the time there and spend the kind of money there that those spaces kind of require

for you to stay there for extended periods of time. You kind of have to buy something in all those places. A lot of big places are alcohol-oriented, which is not exactly inclusive for people who are not interested in alcohol consumption or recovering from addiction. But of course, speaking of inclusivity, Oldenburg's idea of accessibility, like I said before, doesn't really come from a place of disability justice, but that has to change. We need a broader grasp of accessibility, which is why, despite my critiques, I do acknowledge the merits of what are often

termed as virtual third places. They serve as more accessible alternatives for the immunocompromised or disabled individuals. These spaces break down geographical barriers, uniting people from diverse backgrounds and locations, fostering connections based on shared interests, passions, and identities without the constraints of physical distance. And unlike physical third places,

virtual third places are offered around the clock, catering to users' diverse lifestyles and rhythms, offering a flexibility that is really rarely found in real-life settings. At the same time though, in Ohlenberg's defense, he does point out that third places will not resonate with everyone there is this popular notion that third places have to be for everybody and then i see people criticize him saying oh well i prefer to just stay at home i don't really like third places i don't like social interaction or whatever or i don't like that form of social interaction and that's cool you know third places shouldn't be the sole remedy or the main remedy for social ills

preferences will of course vary and not everyone finds cafes or bars appealing which is fine but i still think we can radicalize third places a bit further not just in the sense of diversifying it but also in the sense of bringing it under popular power uh you see radical third places, in my vision, aren't content to merely exist in a neutral ground dictated by capital or state initiatives. No, they're envisioned as collective grounds, common grounds,

where individuals not only frequent, but co-own these spaces, invest in time, energy, and resources to ensure their survival. Emerging spaces that transcend the typical lightheartedness associated with third places. They wield the power to spark social revolutions, serving as zones for decompression, rallying spots for union activities, and nurturing grounds for mutual aid, a nucleus of community-driven change.

But what sets these radical spaces apart is not just the accessibility and location operating hours, but also a culture of inclusivity that goes beyond nostalgia for traditionally male-dominated third places. You know, it's about welcoming a broader spectrum of perspectives,

identities, and abilities. Imagine this, not just a space away from home, but integrated within neighborhoods and mixed-use buildings, fostering community integration. As for how we bring these radical free places to life, the Rot Flora in Hamburg, Germany, I think, provides some great inspiration. Formerly a theatre, it was transformed into a political and cultural hub by activists in 1989. Today it stands as a symbol of resistance against social injustice, and a space pulsating with artistic expression and vibrant dialogue.

They achieved that place through squatting, and squatting is risky, yet revolutionary, but it isn't the only path for securing such spaces. I think we can mobilize communities, empowering them to actively participate in shaping public spaces instead of waiting for decisions from above. I really like the idea of, I can't remember where that term comes from, but it's guerrilla urban planning. You know, painting lines on the pavement for bike paths, you know, reclaiming the sidewalk, claiming spaces in your neighborhood, taking control, not asking for permission to shape the park or the spaces that you share as you see fit.

It's really about, you know, co-creating our environment. It's not merely accepting what's imposed upon us. our environments, not merely accepting what's imposed upon us. Reformist strategies in instances like these can have their merits. They don't exactly advance revolution, but advocating for a walkable neighborhood to improve public transportation doesn't hurt. But the crux remains. These actions, this effort to push for reform,

you know, it can slowly accomplish potentially some change. But the crux remains, you know, empowering people to manage their own lives and spaces, not relinquishing that power to uncaring autocrats. The decline of third places might not be catastrophic, but until we recognize and harness

our power to shape physical environments, our urban social life will continue to lack vibrancy. I think we have to acknowledge our profound influence on our surroundings and seize our agency to actively craft our spaces.

All power to all the people. This is Andrew. This is a good happening. Peace. is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources.

Thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into Tex Elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from.

Curious about queer sexuality, cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Join hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso as they explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into

todo lo actual y viral. We're talking música, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers. Each week, we get deep and raw life stories,

combos on the issues that matter to us, and it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only Nuestra Gente can sprinkle listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts