It Could Happen Here - To Remember Occupy, Part Two

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

Part 2 of our conversation with Vicky Osterweil about the legacy of Occupy in activist theory and tactics Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech

brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. On Thanksgiving Day 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami? Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating.

I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about a crumbling empire and planting seeds in the spaces between. Here's part two of our interview with Vicki Osterweil about the legacy of Occupy Wall Street.

But, you know, like you were saying, you know, like that, you know, don't get arrested. It's bad. So I think when Occupy really started, you know, we were mostly people who had been educated by the cooptation of the civil rights movement, which is that it was all nonviolent and that the whole thing was getting arrested. And Martin Luther King was like the only voice that made any sense. And that was what was effective, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We had all learned that in school, right? We'd all been trained that like nonviolence was like the only thing that made sense and that worked. And I think like those of us who learned about it at all in school, which is certainly not everyone.

But like, I think like, like the, the experience of Occupy of like every day, just getting beat up by the cops every day, like getting attacked, getting arrested. Some people got really, some people got really nihilistically nonviolent. Like some people like really dug in and they're like, attacked, getting arrested. Some people got really, some people got really nihilistically nonviolent. Like some people like really dug in and they're like,

we're like, no, like there is nothing we can do except be beaten. And it turned into this like real masochistic game. Yeah, that happens. That still happens all the time. Oh yeah, oh yeah. That's one common response. But another thing that happened was that

people started breaking through that shit. People started on the ground. Like I remember a march, you know, early on, you know, the police would attack and everyone would sort of like try to deescalate and people would try to like, you know, like talk to the cops or whatever. And like by November,

when right before the camps got cleared, I remember being on a march where we stole all of their orange netting that they were using. And we were just holding it over our head as we marched and trapping cops in it. So even in New York where things never got that intense, in some ways in terms of direct action, that lesson on the ground. You have to be very ideologically committed to get hit with a baton three times and still think the police are on your side. You have to really be drinking the kool-aid and some

people are like some people really do want to believe that but i think um i think that was one so during occupy like those of us who hated the police were pretty lonely um even though the police were beating us up but by the end of occupy the seeds had really been sown for a lot of generational understanding of the police that didn't necessarily immediately sow fruit. Like it wasn't immediately obvious. But I think like I think like folks who stayed in struggle from there grew more and more anti-police. Yeah, that was in general. That was well, OK, so my experience was less with Occup occupy and more with like the 2013 stuff in turkey but it's like that that was because i i was brought up in that like the sort of like

faux gandhi and like yeah mlk civil disobedience and then it was like like i watched turkey happen and it was like hey here's my friend just like getting his ribs broken by a cop and then like there's rabban you know and rabban is sort of where the egyptian movement dies and rabah they just you know they bring out the machine guns and they just shoot everyone yeah and at a certain point like you know this is the limit of non-violence right is that what happens if they just shoot you and and gandhi you know if what if you ever want to like go down the gandhi rabbit hole like gandhi like writes this letter to like like the like the Jews of Germany where he's telling them to like throw themselves on the blades of the Nazis. And it's like,

this is, this is like, yeah, it sucks. This is ridiculous. Like just, this is like, it's being complacent for abuse.

any window studios has a really good video on why non-violence helps the state um and how basically activists that try to force other you know demonstrators to adhere strictly to non-violence yeah that's basically that's that's them in that's them basically saying that if like that's them endorsing the police beating somebody up. Like, that's, it's not actually tied to any kind of movement, and it doesn't actually help. Like, I mean, we could actually see this last year with, like, the first few weeks of, like, you know, abuse from the state actually making headlines and actually changing people,

but after a while, it just didn't matter. Like, a cop could pin someone down and pummel their face in like august and like who gives a shit nobody like it doesn't it doesn't matter you know like that's why i i i found it funny when he talked about like you know people getting mad because cops were like macing people when they surrounded them and i'm like if that happened no one no one would give a shit like yeah well i think not not at all anymore yeah totally well i think i think part of it is is the first time that you see it it's like what on earth yeah like this this i think has been one of the things that's been the core of the the whole sort of 2019 like late 2018 2019

to like 2021 sort of cycle revolutions is that like if if you're just like a dude in a grocery store and some guy runs in is like running away from the cops and then like 15 riot cops and just start beating the shit out of them which is the thing that happens like a lot like if you just see that right there's no way you can actually like like if you ordinary person just witness the cops running up and just beating the shit out of someone like there's no way you can't not be sort of radicalized against the police by it but like yeah but there's there's a certain point where you hit it the desensitization happens yeah more quickly than what it should yeah um and we stop caring i agree i agree with both of you that like that like both it is shocking and radicalizing and we get desensitized because there is so much spectacular pressure to naturalize the police.

And nonviolence ideology is part of that, is part of naturalizing police violence. Right. Like there's nothing you can do about police violence. So all you can do is control yourself and therefore you should you know, you should be better or whatever. Or you should be better or whatever. Yeah, Gandhi had this whole fantasy about the perfect army would march unarmed into machine gun fire. Yeah. And would just be mowed down. He's a fascist, frankly. Yeah.

You only need to look at his opinions about black Africans when he was in Africa to see that. Even if you just read self--reliance it's like this is you know yeah everything i want to talk about with with the peace police though which is that like they're also like in terms of like fighting like inflicting violence on other protesters like they are the most violent like of of the factions you see in a protest that does happen very well like maybe maybe not the most they're like like that does happen like like they beat people up like yeah i'm just gonna say like it ties into like protest security and when protest security is usually working with these more like peace police type organizers and then they use protest security to literally beat up people who are doing more radical action against the state. That happens all the time. Yes. Oh, yeah. Protest security. When I see protest security or marshals,

I know exactly that we're in a bad march. The only time I've ever been physically assaulted by another protester was during Occupy, actually, the night after we've been evicted, which is like November 15th, I think. And if people don't remember, Obama and the FBI coordinated this nationally. All the occupied encampments got swept within a week of each other. On that march, we're marching around. We've been marching around all night. And I'm just dragging a trash can into the street

because we're being followed by police cars. And I'm literally attempting to do some education at the same time. I'm pulling the trash can into the street and I'm yelling, you know, I am doing this because I want to protect us from police violence. Like if this is in the street, then the cop cars can't catch us as much. That's why we build barricades. I'm like literally trying to like yell this because like, you know, because pulling a

trash can in the street is incredibly ineffective ultimately. So it was like literally, it was literally just like for education purposes at that point basically anyway. Especially since a lot of people would like pull them back out of the street whatever this guy runs up on me and grabs me by the collar and lifts me up and like threatens me with his fucking fist and he says if my mom can't get to work tomorrow because of you like i'll beat the shit out of you and we're like we're marching in manhattan at like 1 a.m i'm like what the hell are you talking about and like he would he would have hurt me like pretty bad if a friend of mine hadn't like luckily

had my back and like deescalated a bit that's the only time I've ever been like physically like brought up like into a fight um with by another protester was a guy insisting that me dragging a trash can into the street was beyond the pale no pun

intended I want to just talk a bit more about like how systematic the violence was like because okay so originally i was going to try to get someone from occupy oakland's to come talk about this and i talked to a lot of people and the biggest thing that i got was that no one would talk about it on the record because they would they got because oakland had oakland had a blacklist and if you were in occupy and like anyone else found out about it like people like people couldn't people spent half a decade just not being able to find jobs because they just blacklisted everyone and like to this day like the thing i was told was like yeah i can't i won't talk about this because you know

like if i talk about this like i will be fired all my family everyone around me will be fired and there's like i think like this is the other thing but when we talk about sort of the collapse of occupy the the extent to which after obama and the fbi order the camps closed the policy is that the cops are going to torture anyone who attempts to like gather in a place yep yep for For two years, you couldn't have a meeting outside without the police attacking basically. Yeah.

And, and yeah, I mean, it was, it was, you know, I think like a lot of the people who now claim the, that occupy is the reason that they do politics or whatever for Bernie

Sanders or whatever. At the time they were saying that the reason it collapses, cause there was no organization, there was no structure, there was no political party, there was no, you know, whatever, there was no demands. And, like, it's true that it was poorly organized. Like, there's no doubt. But,

like, we got beat out of the streets. Like, we got beat out of the streets. And, like, people tried for six months really intensely, and for another six months after that, less intensely, to restart that energy um there was all this works towards like a general strike on mayday um 2012 which ended up not really working which is actually exactly the kind of demand-filled one day of action kind of politics that they were demanding it actually really failed yeah um which i think is telling but but in the meantime like you know like occupy like

zuccotti got cleared, but for a while there was the thing, no one remembers this, I don't think, but there was a thing up in Union Square. There was an occupation for three weeks. There was all the Union Square freaks and a bunch of occupiers. And yeah, the cops just,

it was just batons out on site for a few years in New York. And I know it was like that everywhere else or most everywhere else. And that, that came down from on high that like the police were just like, Oh, what was dangerous about this was people gathering in public. So we really need to like, we really need to like enforce the second amendment being meaningless.

Now we really need to stop meetings from happening in public. And that violence was super intense and super real. And a lot of people got beaten out of the movement, you know, and a lot of people got really demoralized and left. And, and I understand why, um, it was scary and awful. And there was a lot of repression and, um, you know, and it, and it, and it has continued to sort of that, that kind of repression has continued to escalate. But what has successfully happened in our movements, I think to our credit, is that we haven't actually formed

the kinds of hierarchical organizations that allow for more effective police repression. All the police have right now against us for the most part is batons in the street. They have a lot more trouble infiltrating, a lot more trouble, which doesn't mean they aren't trying like crazy, but they have a lot more trouble taking down the movements in a sort of COINTELPRO way, right? The modes of repression have changed a bit.

But that's also because we don't have – it's a combination of the fact that we don't have those forms of organization, but we also don't have those forms of organization because they don't emerge spontaneously from our living conditions like they used to. So I think it's, it's, you can't just give credit to any one thing. There's a lot of different factors at play. Welcome. I'm Danny Threl. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter... Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonorum. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters... to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors

that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists

in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough,

so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again. The podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians

and creators sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral.

Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez,

will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez.

At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom.

At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I will say, one of the other things that I've noticed, and I'm pretty sure this has happened, I've talked to people who are talking about this with Occupy. Is it like the first thing, if you have a group of people who are just there, the first thing the cops try to do is appoint a leader.

So that they have one person they can negotiate with. And this lets them sort of, this sort of like access point to which they sort of break like the demands of the crowd is that they find one person, they appoint them the leader, and they get that person to sort of like be the liaison. My favorite Occupy joke, I got to give respect to Occupy Denver. This was the best joke that ever happened in Occupy. They announced at the beginning of one week, on friday we are going to announce our leader occupy denver has chosen a leader and the whole movement got so upset everyone was so angry i was like what the fuck and like they had this like big press conference and their leader was a golden retriever and it was like it was as a perfect role kudos to occupy denver whoever organized that prank i love you i guess yeah so speaking of Kudos to Occupy Denver, whoever organized that prank. I love you.

I guess, yeah. So speaking of kudos to a place, the last thing I wanted to talk about was the giant like port occupation strike thing in Oakland. Yes. Because, I mean, that wasn't the first time people had done it. I know during the anti-war movement, even until 2007, 2008, there's a bunch of people trying to occupy ports. But in Oakland, they like did it they really they put like 40 000 people like in this in in the port of oakland and they shut it down yeah and i think that was like that was one of the thing one of the stories kind of been lost from this because like you know like

that was the point like so like i know people in oakland who like they got like drugged repeatedly drugged by police informants because particularly oakland is also oakland's also way the walk by oakwood is way way less white than any other movements and they get like the the kind of police oppression they get is like just like yeah you know again like people people being repeatedly drugged by informants like cops shooting people in the face like the you know you have the blacklist you have all this stuff and and i think you know part of it is battles yeah yeah and i think part of it is because part of it's because it's a bunch of

non-white people and that's you know that's just what happens and but i think another part of it is because part of it's because it's a bunch of nonwhite people and that's, you know, that's just what happens. And but I think another part of it was also that there was this fear about. Yes. So the reason the poor strike is able to happen is because there's sort of there's a complicated game here where the people like sort of got involved in in like longshoremen union politics but that sort of like fusion of of you have all the people in the street and then they start shutting down ports and that like like the cops like lose their minds over that like that that i think was like extremely scary to them in a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean, I would defer to anyone from Oakland who was there during that.

I have comrades there I've talked to, I've read about it since, but I think part of the heightened police repression and the heightened power of the Occupy Oakland folks was the Oscar Grant Rebellion, like I mentioned, in 2009, which had happened, which had been a few hundred people, but it had been really rowdy.

There'd been like looting and smashing, um, maybe, maybe more than a few hundred, maybe near a thousand people on the big, on the first night. Um, and you also obviously have the legacy of the Black Panthers in Oakland. So, you know, the Black Panther Party, you know, forms in Oakland. It lasts in Oakland a decade and a half longer than it does anywhere else in the country. Um, so there's a lot of like, and you also have the really, really intense gentrification of the Bay that's happening. So there's an incredible political

and economic pressure in the Bay combined with this history of radicalism that really, you know, but yeah, I think also the other thing that's really interesting, I think what you said, like you put your, you know, you hit the nail on the head,

like it was largely like it was terrifying. It was the most effective direct action in the Occupy movement, I think was that port shut down. I think think without a doubt like the biggest mass direct action that that occupy achieved um was that november 12th was that was that was the date of that i don't remember it was 2011 near the end of the near the end of the cycle um and i think like the other thing about um about that though was that that was very similar to the alter globalization movement right where the unions had sort of teamed up with you you know, like in Seattle, there's a lot of trade unions on the ground next to all the black blocs, right?

And I think like that, that image, I think really, it's really interesting. It really terrified the police. And it really, it could be, it could have been a vector for a certain kind of like labor first politics that could have emerged. But instead, like the labor first politics that could have emerged but instead like the labor first people have turned out to be all electoralists yeah it seems that's sort of a weird blip that hasn't really returned um yeah and it's interesting too because like because now like you know like the the afl-cio just like you know afl-cio is like no cop union's great and it's like there's this there's this sort of of split between the street movements and organized labor because they're off doing electoral stuff and cop shit, which is this sort of –

Yeah, and have been now for seven decades. I mean, really, like, the buying off of the unions and the New Deal, you know, with some brief – you know, with brief windows of, like like wildcat action in the 70s and the 90s, the buying off of the unions has never really gone away. Industrial unionism in the U.S. has long been, and in Europe, everywhere where those developed in the early 20th century, that labor movement, they've really been successfully bought off. And I don't think there is, I don't think that those unions are like a big easy route to power anymore than yeah i don't like yeah i don't think they're gonna overthrow the government i mean i will say yeah this is this is my my also my the thing that i plug every time is that the afl cio overthrew allende like yep yeah like like they they they're they're people on the ground we're like directing like like we're we're directing a bunch of the anti-ayende stuff and

it's like and it was the and it was the union bureaucracies like more recently in 2001 who um are in the wake of september 11th who transformed the anti-globalization rhetoric into by american yeah which it turned out was often buying prison-made materials yeah but like that was that was the union the union sort of um defanged the defanged alter globalization into by american yeah there's there's i think like there's a whole nother story there about how that like how anti-globalization turned from like you know the zapatistas to like trump yeah which is incredibly depressing and yeah goes goes through this line of sort of like the replacement of internationalism with nationalism and that

kind of like by local stuff and the fact that like these people sort of just decided that you know partially after seattle partially after 9-11 they're just like we're not doing direct action again and in oakland's like oakland's like that's like that's like the one big exception to that was that moment and then it just kind of just has never happened again, that's like the one big exception to that was that moment. And then it just kind of just has never happened again. And that's partially because that union, the ILWU, is ILWU I think out there is on the courts. That was a particularly like radical union that had had some wildcats like, and was like more democratic than many of the other unions in those states. But yeah, but that's also like a big story for another time obviously yeah um the co-optation of global

anti-globalization over the 20-year period yeah welcome i'm danny thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors

that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities,

artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with cheese, my laughs and all the vibes that you love each week. We'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity,

community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun. And life stories. Join me for gracias. Come again, a podcast by honey German, where we get into total. Actual. Listen to gracias. Come again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral.

Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to the leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just

hate the people in charge, and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough, so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry, and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere.

Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with.

His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. You know, this is kind of corny, but like, what can we actually learn from what happened there? What went wrong and sort of what the limits of it was. Yeah. Okay. So the, the legacy. So I think one legacy that, um,

the legacy that is most widely accepted and known, which we can go over quickly is that it reintroduced class discourse largely into the popular, you know, the 99%, which is a very, very bad class politics, but like, you know, like, um, like the, you know, it reintroduced some of that sort of class war class war discourse. And, um, and I think more important than that, but not that dissimilar, it, um, reintroduced, um, street politics into the US. I think a part of the legacy that gets forgotten because the globalness of the wave gets forgotten as well is that when shit pops off in New York, everyone in the world knows, or at least they did then, right? Because America had been so

successfully appeased politically for so long that I think that when Occupy popped off in 2017, like in 2011, rather, it really like signaled to the world, like there was an Occupy in, uh, New York in a UK. There was one in Tel Aviv. There was actually kind of like a pro-Palestinian Occupy in Tel Aviv briefly. Um, and you know, I think maybe the most powerful sort of immediate tactical, um, offshoot of Occupy was Occupy Nigeria, um, in the first weeks of 2013, um, when, uh, president good luck, Jonathan, um, took, took the, took the fuel subsidies away. And there were like sort of two weeks of really intense revolutionary rioting in Nigeria that then called themselves Occupy as a way of being legible to the rest of the world.

I think the other legacies, though, that are a little more sort of subtle, I guess, is like that a lot of folks still in the struggle now, like I will still meet people, you know, my age who like, I've met, I have two comrades here in Philly who I didn't know at the time, but who were organizing in New York. Right. Like we probably hung out in rooms together. Like we probably like, we were probably in the same spaces, but like, so like a lot of folks, you know, it, each of these waves that has come has left, you know, some people leave, some people swing, right. But like, there's a residue of folks that like becomes the base for the next movement.

And I think like occupy really did provide a lot of people in a way that the gap between alter globalization and occupy didn't produce nearly as large a contingent of people. Although of course there are those people. But I think also like really importantly, like the tactics of occupy, like one of the things that was incredible about the george floyd uprising was that every tactic that we um have tried in the last 10 years re-emerged right there was a prison strike there were uh indigenous blockades

there were me too style call outs um which of course developed out of um punk and queer scene call outs that have been going on for a decade. But there were occupations, right? You had the Chaz in Seattle, which we can, you know, Yeah. We will get to that one day. In any case, in any case, like, I think like that, that has remained in the repertoire of proletarian struggle, like as a result of Occupy.

And if it had just been Occupy, maybe it wouldn't, but as a result of the global movement of the squares, which obviously goes until Tahrir Square in 2013, 2014 in Turkey, I think is probably the... Excuse me, Gezi Park in Turkey, which is the last big moment of the squares, really. But that five-year wave, it was really, really important globally, really, really important locally as well, in terms of building activists, building a class of, well, I don't, you know, whatever, building revolutionaries, whatever you want to call them. The good version of the thing, not the bad version. It produced a lot of them.

And I think like in terms of its limits and like what we can learn from it, like I think taking the police more seriously was really important. I think taking police violence more seriously was a really important legacy of Occupy. I think, I think pushing towards the limit of what total democracy meant. A lot of people in Occupy remember that like a lot of Ron Paul people and like weirdo, like end of the Fed cranks and like right wingers like spoke in Occupy a that that that total open populism of of occupy i think was both probably its greatest strength and its ultimate limit right which was that like it was never going to be able to really like sharpen itself into the into the knife and it wanted to be to like really change the face of of global capital or whatever um because of because there were so many white middle class people involved. A lot of the current far-right media people came at it. Sandra Fairbanks was an Occupy streamer. Tim Pool.

Yeah. You're welcome for Tim Pool. Tim Pool was filming on the last day, a bunch of us doing some things, and Tim Pool did not manage to continue filming, is all I'll say. And after that is when he started swinging right. So you're welcome, everybody.

Anyway, sorry, that guy's a fucking asshole. He was an asshole then, though. I think what's important to know is that a lot of these people were sus as hell back then to Occupy folks. Like, they were around in Occupy because of the nature of Occupy. Like, but like they were, we already didn't like them, you know, like a lot of these people

were already unpopular, were already disliked in the movement. So yeah. But yeah, I think, I think, so I think, you know, there is, there, there are all these different legacies from it that think um ultimately the legacy things that emerged are much more important than occupy um i think you know one of the things about it was that it really was just like the re-emergence of street politics and like like as the re-emergence of street politics like it was pretty limited and it was not that effective at changing things um and also it was incredibly effective at leading to those last decade of

struggle in the U S and I think you can't, you know, I think there's a tendency to want to judge movements by the immediate results that they produce, you know? And like, you know, I think, was it, is this, am I about to quote Mao? I think I am. Was it like when, when he gets asked, you know, what was the, what was the, you know, in the 20th anniversary of I am. When he gets asked what was the 20th anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, he gets asked what was the outcome of the Chinese Revolution.

He says it's too early to tell. I think like that, maybe that's Xiaowen. I don't remember who that is. Yeah, I don't know, but they were right. Yeah, they were right. A lot more people died than what we thought. Yeah, it's like, yeah, they successfully transitioned to capitalism. and they transitioned to capitalism yeah yeah

yeah it was yeah so um so what was the result of occupy it's too early to tell um but i think like i also think like the things that we've talked about here um were core components of what why it mattered i do think one other kind of effect that it's had, and it's hard for me to gauge this because I've only been around post-Occupy, but I feel like now when people try to get stuff started, they really fall kind of into an Occupy mindset where they're like, the only way to make this successful is to hold this space.

And I think that is really a default way that even more experienced, like both experienced organizers and new organizers really kind of just I keep using the word default it's because like that's just that's just really like what they go into you saw this in a lot of different cities last year where they like people trying to set up spaces to hold um a lot of them did not work you know a lot of them a lot of them were like oh yeah we're trying to try to hold the space for like an hour because then the cops pushed us out right and you know in a place like the chas it got extended out a bit longer the chas had its own problems um in other cities in the pacific northwest this happened a

city happened in atlanta too it happened it happened in a lot of places i mean like i think george floyd square is maybe one of the more honestly successful ones for how they were able to actually kind of keep police away. And they avoided turning it into this big media thing like with the Chaz did. And I don't know. I think I grew very... I saw a lot of people kind of grow kind of frustrated with this kind of Occupy mentality

because what that kind of grow kind of frustrated with this like kind of occupy mentality because what that kind of results in is people just setting up outside of a police headquarters and trying to stay there for as long as possible which is like that's not doing anything you're just kind of waiting to get beat up um yeah yeah but it's complicated though right like in defense of that tactic like i think like like that was also very that was also very core to Ferguson, right? They held West Florissant for a week and a half. Now they did it much. They didn't do it by setting up tents and sitting there.

And also like, you know, like, like a thing that gets forgotten a lot in the Latin, the history is, you know, Occupy Ice. It was pretty small. It was big here in Philly. Yeah. It was, it was massive here in Portland. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so like there were moments when that tactic really does, like, it's important to have a space to meet in. And I think we did learn that. But I also agree that it has become – like any tactic that works once, it becomes a fetish, right? Yeah. It's always trying to balance space because the two big things that have happened the past 10 years is Occupy and Hong Kong. So people try to balance these two kind of almost opposing things, like hold this space and be water. That's kind of the two things that people yell in the street back and forth. And no one really knows what to do.

Cause we're just yelling slogans. And I will say the other thing about this. So they're like the one time the people in Hong Kong got pinned down when, when they had to, when they had this whole university siege, it was a shit show. Like, and you know,

and I would say like the, the, the people in Hong Kong, like and you know and i said like the the people in hong kong like you know okay like even when they're like they they did not have by by the time you're getting to the the the sort of the siege of the universities like that like you know like they had like mullet they had like like molotov workshops like there were people like standing on the roof shooting bows and arrows like cops, and it, like, it just wasn't enough. And I mean, partially it has to do with the fact that, like, you know, Hong Kong's in a uniquely bad position insofar as it is one city, and it's, like, the only possible way that a social movement in Hong Kong, like, ever just doesn't get crushed by just the fact that they're outnumbered like a thousand to one is if it spreads but like yeah it became this you know like that that moment like yeah the this that the whole problem with with trying to hold space becomes really apparent there because even if you have an extremely large number of people right like like attacking one isolated

space in mass is the thing the cops are really good at. And the thing they're really bad at is trying to deal with like, you know, like 500 people, like 700 instances of 500 people going through places because there just aren't enough of them. But yeah. What was it like the head of? Who was it? It was a big, big muck muck in the national police, in the national police, you know, whatever, said that like, we can very easily handle one march of 10,000 people, but we can't handle 10 marches of 1,000 people. You got to see this in Chicago too. Like this is how the police lost control of the Miracle Mile. It's like, yeah, there's people everywhere, everywhere, everywhere.

And yeah, I don't know. Yeah, no, and that's how that's what, you know, I mean, certainly in Philly where it was very, very powerful, that's what the George Floyd rebellion looked like was when people were everywhere in Philly. All the neighborhoods, you know, people didn't, you know, like we were out there, you know, whatever. And like, people didn't know what was going on three blocks south. You know what I mean? Like, it was like that. Like, there was just, there were fights happening everywhere. And under those conditions, the police can't, can't, no matter how militarized they are,

they can't act. Yeah. Um, effectively anyway, they can act. They, they, they certainly will. Um, they will act like pigs. Um, but, uh, but I think like, yeah, so I think that, that, that sort of dispersion, but I think the other, there's this, so there's, I'm going to promote a really, really weirdo crank book right now.

Sure. Go for it. This 20th century literary weirdo, this guy, Elias Canetti, Italian guy. Oh, boy. Wrote this book called Crowds and Power, where he attempts to describe the entirety of human history and anthropology in terms of crowds. This is obviously impossible and ridiculous, but that book has the best descriptions of crowd dynamics I have ever encountered anywhere. Interesting. And I like people who take big swings because they end up, they miss.

Yeah, yeah. Miss has lots of interesting stuff. I think that's why people liked Settlers by Jay Sakai so much. Like, I think the thesis wasn't great, but there's so much incredible stuff in that book that, like, it works anyway. Having a really wild thesis allows you to like really like get into some yeah so anyway one of the things that canetti talks about in that book is that um a crowd uh an open crowd as he describes it an open crowd is um must constantly be growing and the moment it stops growing it starts shrinking right yeah like this i think that dynamic um in terms of both movement and like

a momentary protest or riot right is like really real i can i can totally see that yeah and i think one of the things that um particularly organizers are trained to do and like that that we learn to do especially in lull periods and we're like organizing these little you know you know these little crystallized groups of like hard cadre or whatever, is that like you that like what we learn as organized is something that is defendable. But once you start defending something, you start losing it because we cannot take on the state or the police in a head on confrontation. And this is this can be confusing because sometimes you can successfully defend for a few weeks, maybe even a few months.

You can defend a space sometimes. because sometimes you can successfully defend for a few weeks, maybe even a few months. You can defend a space sometimes. But once people get really interested in the defending, then they begin forming bureaucracies, governments, internal policing, security forces, whatever it is. They start undermining the very thing that made it powerful, which was this sudden rapid growth, this sudden big explosion of power and self-recognition that comes in the beginning of movement. And I think, I don't think there's a way to will that problem away. Like, I don't think we can just like think our way out of it.

Like, it's just a problem. But I do think that like one thing that we could take from the experience of Occupy and the experience of the last decade is that like, if you do, you know, consider yourself someone who wants to participate in these kinds of movements, which is probably why you're listening to this podcast right now. Don't try and defend, like don't try and defend, like some things will need to be defended sometimes, obviously. But like, if your main thing is like the thing, we should never defend something we've achieved so far. We should never not be willing to destroy it in order to like build something bigger. Right.

Like we should never, no movement thing that we have, be it an occupy park, be it, be it a, like a taken space defending that should never outweigh the possibility of expanding. And if that's our strategic mindset,

obviously moment to moment, you can't just be thinking that constantly. Yeah. But but the strategic mindset is like what we have now is, is only good to the extent that it can turn into something more, um, rather than we have to defend what we have now. If you can think that way, I think it opens up a lot of strategic possibilities. Um, and I think it, it's what has worked what has worked over the last decade that I've seen is when people attack, when people expand, when people try to do new stuff, it doesn't always work and it doesn't always hold. But when that stuff stops happening, the movement is doomed. I think that's a really good way to wrap things up. I think that's a nice, beautiful sentiment.

I kind of view this type of thing in more than just protests and, you know, in different facets of life. I think you can always learn from past experiences, from past struggles, but if you try to perfectly replicate them, you're absolutely going to fail. You should always learn and move on, but you should not be focused on any kind of replication. Is there any of your books or writings you'd want to plug before we wrap up here? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I wrote a book that came out last year called In Defense of Looting. It came out in 2020 with Bold Type. I am currently also writing. I'm obsessed with movies. I write a movie review column for the Al Jazeera plus. I did not know that.

Yeah, the newsletter sub stack if you want to read. I mean, it is really movie reviews. So if you want cranky anarchist theory, it's not the spot for you. Otherwise, yeah, I'm on a pretty long social media break right now. Good for you. But you can find me on there eventually. I'll probably come back inevitably. Unfortunately. Yeah. media break right now but good for you there eventually i'll probably come back inevitably um unfortunately yeah just yeah um you know i just have i i have writing popping up every every now and then and um and if you read it i would appreciate it well is that helpful yeah absolutely

wonderful thank you uh and yeah thank you for so much for coming on to talk about um occupy and stuff that i think a lot of people hear about, but at least a lot of my generation does not fully kind of grasp it. It is literally my pleasure. I wasted so much of my life thinking about this. I'm so glad to be able to share some of it with some people.

I'm so glad you're able to join us too it with some people i'm so glad you're able to join us too this is i've been looking forward to this for a while so yeah it's very exciting all right that wraps up uh us today you can find us on twitter and instagram at cool zone media and happen here pod we'll be back in uh for a few more episodes this week. Adios. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow Broth. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of rife. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline Podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into Tex Elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires.

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Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept,

but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.