It Could Happen Here - Trans and Autistic: Interview with Noah Adams

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

We talk with PHD student Noah Adams about his research into the intersection of autism and being trans. https://www.canadahelps.org/en/charities/metropolitan-community-church-of-toronto/campaign/trans-and-proud/ https://twitter.com/noahadams https://www.amazon.com/Trans-Autistic-Stories-Life-Intersection-ebook/dp/B08289P67ZSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of fright. An anthology podcast of modern-day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm Garrison. With me today is Chris. And today we'll be talking about something that I was wanting to do for Pride Month, but time kind of got away from me.

But we'll be talking with Noah Adams, who does research into the kind of crossover between autism and being trans. I know we briefly mentioned some rhetoric around this on our War on Trans People series episodes, and Noah was kind enough to reach out to me to be willing to discuss this more in depth. Greetings. Hello. Thank you.

Hi. It's always Pride Month somewhere in the summer, so I think we're okay. That's true. So I guess let's, I first want to kind of hear how you personally kind of got into this field of research, and then maybe kind of clarify what exactly your field of research is. Sure. Well, I guess, where do you start? I mean, I'm a trans person, and I'm also autistic, so it's sort of a natural crossover for me. I got started in trans research or trans activism doing suicidality work in such a long time ago now, but in I think 2006, myself and my best friend cycled across Canada to bring

awareness for trans suicidality and in memorandum of a person, a friend who committed suicide. So, you know, we went to a lot of different communities in Canada, including Saskatoon, and did talks about, you know, did talks with local trans communities about suicidality prevention stuff and met a lot of great people. and met a lot of great people. And then I came back and I did my Master of Social Work, also on trans-suicidality research, kind of looking at how there's a lot of different research out there and who knows, you know, there's a lot of different rates

that are given all high and where are we supposed to, you know, fall on that. And then I finished that and I was kind of tired of doing suicidality work. Yeah, that seems to get a little bit, a little bit exhausting. And kind of great. I have a, I have a much darker sense of humor than I used to. Yeah. So a friend, I was kind of drifting into autism work and a friend who, Jake Pine, who's a professor now at York University, suggested I kind of move into that area, and here I am. So with the kind of crossover between being trans and have, and I guess, I'm not the best,

I don't know, I consciously don't kind of know what the most appropriate language is. Would you say that you would you prefer to say that you like have autism or you are artistic? I mean, I think it's pretty universal in the autism community to talk about identity first language. So, yeah, exactly. Autism kind of leads and that's, yeah, I mean, I guess I'd say I'm autistic. Most people don't say person with autism. Yeah, yeah.

So with that, how have you kind of, what initially got you to, you know, we see a lot of propaganda and stuff trying to almost like take away people's agency around both being trans and being autistic. There's a lot of propaganda there, especially from the TERFs in the UK really started this out and really accelerated on this point. There's a whole bunch of basically autism exterminationist groups out there and a whole bunch of other kind of problems around this.

How, when these kind of crossovers start happening, where did you kind of, what kind of prompted you to see this and be like, hey, here's this thing that needs to be researched and here's how I'm going to go about it. Because you, you see a lot of people talk about this thing,

but it's always generally to like attack trans people or attack autistic people. I mean, you know, there's a lot there. I mean, I would say, you know,

my sort of seedling of interest is, is I just really don't like injustice. I really, I mean, that's such a broad thing to say, but I really, you know, injustice against people for the sake of who they are really just kind of pisses me off. And, you know, I mean, when you pick a research topic, you've got to pick something that you're willing to spend hours and hours and hours in a library or, you know, a virtual library, what have you, just kind of plowing away at it. And it seemed like I was pissed off enough at the injustice of the way autistic people

and the way trans people are treated, and especially the way I think we're ignored by both spheres, by both, you know, for TERFs and trans exclusionary folks. I really feel like we're an easy target where, you know, autistic people or for that matter, people with developmental disabilities or people with any kind of, and I'm using heavy finger quotes on this, any kind of impairment-based disability feel like a soft target for people that just want to attack trans folks, right? Like, because they're a group that are so, it's incomprehensible to them that we would be able to speak for ourselves.

So they're, you know, I mean, I don't even think that they, I don't think they care about autistic people, but I don't think they even, it even occurs to them that autistic people might have and trans autistic folks might have something to say for themselves. So what's kind of the scope of your research been, uh, the, for however, however long you've been working on this for, uh, it's, it's for a PhD program, correct?

It is. Yeah. Well, I started doing, uh, I a book on trans and autistic folks. It's sort of a series of interviews with folks. And, you know, I mean, I just asked them, like, about their lives and what it was like to be trans and what it was like to be autistic and what it's like to, you know, try to transition as an autistic person. And a lot of stuff came out of that around, you know, how difficult it can be for folks that are that are both to access trans health care and to sort of navigate their way in the world. And this is for my PhD work. It's sort of an outgrowth of that.

So I'm looking specifically at how trans autistic community groups or grassroots group formations are are forming and and what their goals are. grassroots group formations are forming and what their goals are. How do you, like, how do you go about, like, ethical research into this topic? Because definitely, like, you know, there's a certain way to, like, there's a certain way to be, like, I'm researching autism and trans people to be, like, huh, that's a little bit of a side eye, right? Because of how some of, because of how, like, the TERF groups talk about it. that's a little bit of a side eye right because because of how some of because of how like the turf groups talk about it obviously you're trans and autistic and that's completely different but like definitely yeah i was definitely wondering like is there like how what what types of like ways does ethical research go about so that you actually understand people when you're talking to them it's not it's not about like here we need to, we need to solve these problems because they're not problems to be solved.

It's research into living people who are having lives. Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I'm sort of sorting through that myself right now because I'm just working through my ethical research proposal. But I think you just have to be really honest and open and really write all this stuff out like how are you going to contact people and what are you going to talk to them about and showing other people what you're doing and being very open to that process if that makes sense yeah yeah Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter?

Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season or wherever you get your podcasts. unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. in what types of ways do you see the the crossover kind of between ableism and transphobia and like what how have you seen that crossover be used to kind of hurt both trans people and people who are artistic and people who are both you know i mean I think the most explicit way has been, you know, I see a lot of articles by The Guardian or The Daily Mail. Sure. You know, bring up the specter of autistic people being overrepresented, overrepresented again in finger quotes, among the trans population going to gender clinics. trans population going to gender clinics and and there isn't ever any explanation after you say that that the scaremongering is is just saying there's autistic people supposedly overrepresented among trans folks oh no but as if it doesn't need saying it's it's assumed that that's

that's appalling you know but i would like a little bit more explanation there's there's there's a lot said by how they how this how they frame it and how they and like what they don't say um they really like they it's all framed as if this is an you know something that everyone recognizes as like a problem um and countering that is really challenging because it is yeah because like again you're you're doing research into this specific crossover. And what kinds of stuff have you kind of learned throughout your research about this? I mean, it's interesting, like it's, that attitude is also represented in the academic literature, like over the last, I'd say over the last five years, the literature on the crossover of autism and trans folks has like skyrocketed. I always say in 220 alone, something like 150 articles were published, whereas two years before that, maybe 20.

OK. And the vast majority of them are mentioning the co-occurrence in passing. So they're saying, oh, well, we read these other things where autism and trans identity co-occurs, so thus you should be very careful prior to providing trans healthcare because they might be autistic. Yeah, that's another thing I wanted to talk about was the whole medical gatekeeping aspect.

And especially if you especially see with you see this with like TERFs you know there's a lot of like infantilization with the TERF rhetoric around this and then that kind of leads to this type of medical gatekeeping yeah I just think you know I see I see this I saw this in a book with the interviews I did and I see it in so many other places and especially conversation with folks is that, you know, the problem seems to be if you tell an unexpected narrative to the person in charge of gatekeeping you for transgender health care, you're going to make them nervous. And if you make them nervous, they're not necessarily going to say no, but they're going to say to themselves at least, oh, let's wait and see. And for autistic folks,

waiting and seeing might mean forever, right? Like I talked to folks in the book that, you know, without mentioning actual cities because of the, you know, the particular situation of this person. But let's, you know, let's say he lived in New Orleans and he wasn't able to access trans health care in New Orleans because it just wasn't available to folks who were autistic. And so he ended up moving to Chicago, which which shows, you know, he moved to Chicago specifically to get trans health care, which shows a level of capacity that they're implying in the context of trans health care in New Orleans that he's not capable of. you know he can uproot his whole life move across the country set himself up find a doctor and then he talked to the doctor

in an informed health clinic in chicago and and they were like oh yeah we knew that you were from this city and we knew that you were autistic before you told us because there's this whole pipeline of autistic trans folks making the migration to chicago from this particular city because they can't get health care i mean like you know i'm also thinking about you know like kids trying to come out as trans um who have autism or have any other kind of you know quote unquote developmental disability um and like just all of the ways that that can be used to gaslight kids about their gender identity. I know in your book, you mentioned stuff around

like self-discovery and coming out and issues with family. What kind of things have you heard about that in terms of how kids that, that kids are figuring out gender stuff while also having this whole other thing that people used to kind of add on to their experience. I mean, I think one of the things I notice, especially in sort of trans-autistic autobiographies is that gender doesn't really make an inherent sort of sense to a lot of autistic folks. I mean, it doesn't make sense to me, but I mean, I have, I have something going on in my brain. I don't know what it is. I don't think it's autism, but

yeah, gender's never made sense to me either. And I think like where you, for autistic people, especially where you come across things that don't make an inherent sort of sense, it's difficult to accept them. Like so much in the world doesn't make inherent sense but that can be a real sticking point for autistic folks so you know what i seem what i seem to see a lot of is that by the time folks come out of well first of all it seems like although you know i don't want to quote any particular kind of research on it because I think the jury's still out. But it seems like autistic people are more likely to identify as non-binary or to just not identify with gender at all. And it does seem like by the time folks come out as trans, whatever, you know, permutation of that there is for them, they've tried just about every other identity they can, you know, they can try out. Like, especially, you know, I mean, we're aware that there are

social stigmas and social expectations around gender. So I think for a lot of autistic folks, they're going to try to fit that, even though it doesn't make sense to them. They're going to try to fit within that because they know it exists. By the time they come out as trans, or male or female or what have you, we pretty well know

if that makes any kind of sense. Yeah, no. There's a lot of misconceptions people have about both being trans and being autistic, of sense yeah no i mean they think there's a lot of misconceptions people have about about i mean both being trans and being autistic let alone uh being both um is is there any like yeah like what sorts of common misconceptions about this on like on like a broader level would you like to dispel um sure yeah i mean I think a lot of people get told, you know, you can't be autistic because you're too articulate, or, you know, you have too much of an opinion. Autistic people can't have an opinion of themselves or their own life. Yeah, that's gross.

I'm paraphrasing, but I think that's what it equates to. Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, trans folks get told, it's not uncommon to get told, oh, well, you can't be autistic because you know trans folks get told it's not uncommon to get told oh well you can't be autistic because you're trans so you're sort of in this this no no person's land that's such a that's such like an ontological attack on someone's being it's so it really is yeah like that's you know like you know already like, just being solely trans or autistic, you get some of that. And then together, it's like it's just attacking every kind of part of you that you're trying to figure out. Well, I mean, I mean, in terms of attacking people rhetorically, it's sort of the perfect weapon because you can make autistic trans people into whatever you want to be convenient to you.

you can make autistic trans people into whatever you want to be convenient to you. What kinds of stuff do you think people should know about this to help kind of either, you know, to help either like counter some of like the rhetoric around this or just to gain better like personal understanding, right? If they have, if they have, you know, people in their lives who are like this, or maybe they suspect that they're, that they're trans and they're autistic? Like how, what kinds of stuff would you like people to be more aware of about this intersection? Well, I guess I remember a story someone from the book told me about how, you know, he was, he had, his best friend is trans and autistic as well, and has a number of physical disabilities. And he was kind of, he's sort of the care a number of physical disabilities and he was kind of he's sort

of the caretaker for him um and he was kind of talking to him about how oh well i don't know if i'm trans and i don't know if i should you know if i should use that label or like you know maybe it's not the right thing to do or it's bad or something and his friend was like well you know you're not you're not a hormonal vampire. Like, you're not going to, like, suck the hormones out of somebody else and hurt them by taking away their testosterone. Oh, I wish. I wish it worked like that. I would be a trans vampire. This is about you and what makes you comfortable.

It's not about, like, you're not hurting anybody else by being yourself. And I think, you know, autistic folks like anybody else, you know, worry about, I mean, we're just as susceptible to the attacks on trans folks as anybody else, right? And you worry that like, well, maybe this is the right thing to do. But like, what are you hurting by by exploring it that doesn't mean you have to be trans or you have to transition or or you can't change your mind like but it doesn't it doesn't hurt anybody let alone you to just be open to it even just like temporarily trying out different names or pronouns right can can be like such a a big deal. And it can be very incidental. Like, it doesn't need to be so cataclysmic, right? That's something that you can

experiment with, and it's fine, right? You never, you don't need to lock yourself into anything. But of course, you know, when it's about your personal sense of identity, of course, it feels much bigger I think people worry about what other folks I mean obviously people worry about what other folks will think of them and what that means for them I don't know I mean it seems like a strange

comparison to make but I don't know if you've seen Crimes of the Future I've not yet oh it's really good it's the most recent David Cron yet oh it's it's really good it's it's uh the most recent david cronenberg movie and there's this great i i'm gonna give away the end of the movie so spoiler spoilers i know finally we're turning this into a movie podcast what i've always wanted there's this great scene at the end though where vigo mortizen is like in this he has this special

like very david cronenberg bone chair that he has to like be in to move him around while he's eating yeah and he finally is convinced by his partner to like try the the plastic chocolate bar that's you know supposed to be like it's a whole digestive thing i won't get into it but you know there's this moment of realization like he's been avoiding this for the whole the whole movie and he like tries it and he's eating it. And suddenly there's this realization moment in his face where he's like, oh, this didn't have to be so difficult. Like, society doesn't want me to do this, and it's seen as a crime, and it's seen as terrible. But actually, when you cross that Rubicon, it wasn't as bad as you thought. Yeah. I mean, especially if you're, even if you're not like coming out to everybody you know

all at the same time, right? You can start, you start off with a small group of people that you know are going to be with you and you try it out with them. And if you like it, then great. That's a really good sign. If you start it and you're like, and this doesn't feel right, then you don't need to commit. Like it's not a thing, right? That Rubicon can feel so big sometimes. Yeah.

And it feels like you're jumping across a giant, like the Grand Canyon, but really all it is is you're stepping across, you know, a small stream and you can step right back across there if you didn't like it. Yeah. So what kind of things would you like to see happen know a small stream and you can step right back across there if you didn't like it yeah so what kind of things we like to see happen around like the medical gatekeeping so that

it's less fucked up i mean i know a lot of i'm actually at a uh conference in belgium right now for trans health sort of medical trans health stuff um and you know i mean i think one of the things i keep coming back to is you don't need to treat autistic people in the realm of trans health care any differently than you do anywhere else like anyone else like especially in the gatekeeper model we have like either you have the capacity to consent or you don't like that that test is and i have lots of thoughts about that if that's for another day but you know whether you meet those tests or not it should not be any different just because you're autistic welcome i'm daniel thrill won't you join me at the fire and dare enter

Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors

that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how tech's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. and with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field.

And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people.

I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make real people. I swear to God, things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Would you like to, I guess, talk just briefly about your book?

You know, what's it like, what the scope of it is, where people can find it, that sort of thing. Trans and Autistic Stories from Life at the Intersection by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. It was out in 2020, I think. People can find it on Amazon or wherever you buy books. I'm sure Powell's Bookstore over there in Portland has it. Yeah, it's a series of interviews with folks who are trans and autistic. I sat down with folks and asked them about their life and what's going on and what that looks like. And then I sort of, you know, try to transcribe that into a text,

into a narrative form and put that in a book. And here we are. That sounds wonderful. I see the listing on amazon.ca for our Canadian folks as well. Yeah. Thank you so much for talking about this. Is there any other kind of random thoughts that you would like to you would like to mention that we haven't that we haven't brought up yet? Sure. You know, I always like to plug Rubes Walsh's work, which looks at, you know, they do a lot of work in trans autistic stuff, too. And they kind of look at why more people may be trans and autistic. And they kind of look at why more people may be trans and autistic. And one of the things they've found is that it may be that autistic people are both less capable of hiding the fact that they're trans and less capable of caring or caring about hiding it. Yeah. It may be more obvious that there is a concurrence there, but not an actual overage of a concurrence. Let's say.

Yeah. Yeah. That mean that was definitely in the back of my mind. Yeah. Huh? Well, again, Noah, thank you so much for coming to talk with us.

Yeah. Can I, can I plug a couple things is that okay plug plug away this is still still your time okay um so i'm leading a refugee sponsorship group for a group of five for a trans guy from the middle east and we're raising funds through the metropolitan community church in toronto we got to raise a certain amount before we can put the application East. And we're raising funds through the Metropolitan Community Church in Toronto. We got to raise a certain amount before we can put the application in. And I can give you that link, but it's at CanadaHelps.org. And the name is Trans and Proud. Trans Proud. Trans and Proud. I can read out the whole URL, but it's kind of long.

I will, I will put, if you send me that link, I will put it in the description for people to click on. Awesome. And you can find me at Noah Adams on Twitter. Because I got in early enough to get my name. Yeah, wow. March 2009. Just right on the cusp.

Well, again, thank you so much for reaching out to talk about this intersection. Hopefully, if anyone was interested in what we were talking about, please check out Noah's book to just read a whole bunch of stories from people about this. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. All right, everyone. That does it for us today. See you on the other side. All right, everyone, that does it for us today. See you on the other side.

It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow Broth. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of rife. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.