It Could Happen Here - Transnational Repression of Sikh Independence Activists

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

James talks to Dr. Singh about the recent assassinations and attempted assassinations of Sikh independence activists by the Indian government.  Some resources mentioned in the episode: Askindiawhy.comKhalistan.org@FREE5AB on social media platformsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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it's all packed with gems, fun, straight up comedia, and that's a song that only nuestra gente can sprinkle. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google Search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. Call Zone Media. tendency of India to attempt to assassinate Sikh activists in the United States and in Canada and probably in other places too. So welcome to the show, Dr. Singh. All right, thank you. Thank you

for having me. Yeah, you're welcome. So I think people listening to this for the first time might not be super familiar with the situation in India and also like what Khalistan is and what that means. So I want to get into both of those things. To start with, I think, could you maybe explain Khalistan, explain what it means? Maybe people have seen this yellow and green flag or heard the word, but they might not know what it means. So could you break that down for us? Sure, sure. So Khalistan is essentially a freedom of liberation movement that starts in Punjab. So it's north of India. And Punjab is a region that is populated primarily of Sikhs, though the population numbers are changing. And so Khalistan is essentially sovereignty, freedom, it's its own homeland. So it's labeled as the Sikh homeland. However,

there will be many different ethnicities, many different people of religious backgrounds in Khalistan. So it is an ongoing movement. The Indian state, of course, it's not in their best interest to lose a chunk of land and to lose especially a prosperous chunk of land. So they're doing everything in their power to silence those that speak about it, to oppress the people there so that they don't have enough willpower to fight back. So that's a very, very brief introduction to it. Yeah. So let's zoom out a little bit and talk about the history of Sikh people in India and then the recent tendency with Modi to sort of define Hinduism and Indianism as the same thing. And you can't be one without being the other. So maybe we

can start with like that history of Sikh people within India. We can pick it up like, I guess, wherever you want. You can start in 1930s or we can start a little bit later. Yeah, well, actually, I think it's important to start even earlier than that. The origins of Sikhs are in the region. Our faith was started in 1469 with Guru Nanak Devji, which is in now the Pakistan region. So that's where our faith was started. And our people have essentially been fighting an existential battle since the faith was formed. So different rulers of the time, different kingdoms in that area would attempt to kind of wipe Sikhs out. And Sikhs have always been fighting back and fighting for their existence.

So a small example of this is in 1738 and up until the 1770s, there was mass slaughter of Sikhs. We're talking thousands killed on a single day period. We refer to it as the Varda in Shota Kallukara, which is basically, in our history, largest population of Sikhs decimated in a single day was in 1738 and 1770s as well. So we went from that circumstance to essentially forming our own kingdom,

forming our own country in 1799, was formally established under Maharaja Ranjit Singh, though the Sikhs were operating independently even before that and kind of governing their own regions. But in 1799, the Sikh Confederacy kind of joined and became what is now known as the region of Punjab. So the British came to colonize. They colonized India relatively quickly after arriving. And then when they approached the Sikh kingdom, not only could they not penetrate it, they had to sign a treaty with Maharaj Arunjit Singh, who was the ruler of Punjab at the time, and saying that we won't cross to this side of this river and you don't cross to this side. So they essentially signed

a treaty saying, we can coexist, but we won't come to your side because they feared the repercussions of what that would lead to. And then slowly, as they have with many empires, they have kind of infiltrated, they paid folks, they signed traitors, and they broke down, they annexed Punjab in 1849. So we have a period of colonization from 1849 officially till 1947. And in 1947, the Radcliffe line is drawn. That is where Pakistan is now what we see as Pakistan. And now India is what we see as India, though before it was all together and a large region of it was Punjab. When 1947, what Indian would refer to as independence, though it was actually a transfer of power, the Gandhis of the time are kind of credited with the independence movement, but they were working with the British for decades before that. They kind of knew that

they would receive the reins once the British left the region region so truly it wasn't independence movement it was a transfer of power from the british to them so in 1947 by creating kind of relationships through some false promises the hindu leaders of the time essentially guaranteed six that you guys know how to fight for your rights if we were ever to infringe upon them you guys are allowed to be in the punjab region it's essentially going to be autonomous so after independence essentially they immediately reneged on all of their previous assurances and six have essentially kind of been fighting an independence movement since 1947 yeah they were not allowed to speak their language uh There was a Punjabi Subha movement in 1955 where they even had to fight for their native language to be able to speak their native language in their region. And so now, moving many iterations later, what we see is Modi.

Kind of the, I wouldn't say final form because we haven't lived to the end yet but he is the latest iteration of hindu nationalism of what extremism looks like so he has now taken the work of the gandhis and all of the prime ministers of india and kind of the indian deep state agenda and now transformed it to saying that we want to be a nation of one language, of one religion, of one kind of people. And there's really no space for minorities in there, though they won't say it openly because they want to carry the moniker of the world's biggest democracy. They are not a secular nation. And under Modi, we've seen massacres, we've seen very genocidal violence, which he himself allowed and which he was not even allowed to go into many Western countries because they held him accountable and responsible for leading

the massacre of Muslims in 2002 Gujarat. But once he became prime minister, they kind of backed away from that stand and chose financial relationships. So today we are in a place where Sikhs, being less than 2% of the population in India, are continuing their struggle for liberation. And the Indian state, kind of consistent with their agenda since 1947, doesn't have room for that difference, doesn't have room not only to give them their rights,

but liberation entirely. That's the next step beyond liberation entirely and that's that's the next step beyond that so that's where we are today yeah there's a significant sick community especially on the west coast of the usa right and um i've met probably hundreds of sick people in the last year crossing the border for the reasons you've just outlined and others of course deciding they're nearly all coming from india right and punjab and they have told me some really terrible stories right some really upsetting things i've heard from lots of other people it's not unique to them but uh there's a significant sick population

on the west coast of the u.s and canada too so can you explain i know that sick people here have been organizing for khalistan for some time there There was even like a vote recently, if I understand correctly. So can you explain like that history of the Sikh diaspora and how they've been really important in getting the word out and advocating? First, yeah, I'm glad we touched on migration, actually. Mass migration out of Punjab is not a natural phenomenon. It is the outcome of very genocidal violence. And further than that, it's the continued violence and oppression through different ways. So one example is, there's a strong drug nexus in that area. And anyone who is distributing drugs is protected

by the Indian state, whether through bribery, whether through their agenda in general of keeping Punjab kind of addicted and away from liberation. So that is one aspect of it. Further, Panj Ab, for the listeners, Panj Ab means the land of five rivers. Panj means five, and Ab means water. So its name is literally created on river water. And theian state has now taken those river waters diverted them to different states of india and punjab gets no royalty for those as opposed to any other state of india if they have a natural resource they get to sell it and their state gets the the benefit of that so punjab at this point has been giving trillions of gallons of water to different states for free. And Punjab is, there's different numbers out there, but 60 to 65% an agrarian society.

So everyone is essentially farming. And what the farmers of Punjab are being forced to do is dig underground for water, even though they have natural river water that should be going through Punjab itself, which they can redistribute. So there's a huge farmer suicide problem happening in Punjab because they are unable to get out of debt. They are viewing farming as an unprofitable kind of a dead end business as opposed to farming in many other places. So it's very profitable. There's sick farmers in California who are multi-multi-million places. So it's very profitable. There's sick farmers in California who are multi-multi-millionaires. So it's not an unprofitable business. However,

the state has made it that way, understanding that if we can cripple farming, their water supply, and get their next generation addicted to drugs, then they'll be forced. So the mass migration we see is not natural. It is the outcome of that. And I'm sorry, I think I forgot the second part of your question. Something about sex in the Western. Yeah, no, that's okay. That was a really good explanation. It's really important. I think we should just take a little advertising break here. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly.

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Yeah, so the second part I wanted to ask about was the the importance of this diaspora community in organizing for kalistan right because in addition to all these indian government policies that you've outlined that are having these impacts in punjab and like we shouldn't discount that climate change is also having impacts there right absolutely across the whole indian subcontinent but in addition to that right there's a very powerful and developed khalistan movement in the united states and in canada that has been advocating for the issue and raising i think awareness and that's what's being targeted now right yeah absolutely because they understand that if you say that word khalistan within pun Punjab, the police is working with them.

The judicial system is working with them. Every single facet of any organizational institution is working for them. So, I mean, there's been many people that do mention it and they end up dead. They end up in jails. They are silenced in one way or another. end up in jails they you know are silenced in one way or another so despite that though still many more folks that believe in khalistan in punjab than there are anywhere else in the world and they are willing to say it openly despite the consequence of that which is essentially jail or death in the millions so what happens is when we when six uh are a forced to migrate out or migrate out for any reason they still hold those aspirations with them they still remember the plight of their people in pujab so they have freedom of speech and which is what you should have in democracies in which

they don't have in india so when they have freedom of speech they express those aspirations to the point where there are people being killed all over the world uh we named canada and uh the u.s but there was an activist poisoned in the uk just last year there's been folks killed in pakistan which is on the other side of the border for india and they tried to assassinate a sick in new york and as recently as a few days ago they tried to assassinate a Sikh in New York. And as recently as a few days ago, they tried to assassinate a Sikh here in California. So, I mean, the movement is very much alive and it's on the up. And I think the Indian state understands this,

but they're having a tough time kind of wrapping their head around how to silence folks outside of their borders yeah that's really where we are because within their borders it's full-on suppression you can't say it folks within punjab when they leave punjab and they come to different countries their eyes kind of finally open as to why they were in the conditions they were in it's almost like when you're in the middle of a storm you don't know you're in a storm but when looking on the outside in you're seeing hey this is uh this is a very intentional and systematic genocide that is happening against our people so that is

one aspect of it but it's becoming more organized and you know there's a referendum there's intellectuals there's conferences happening there there's grassroots organization. And so Sikhs have the concept called Chardikala. And Chardikala is essentially ever-rising spirits. for sovereignty and liberation alive. And we've seen that in our history where our population, due to the oppression and the massacres, dwindled down to the hundreds and they were living in jungles. And even then they would exit the jungles,

fight, work to free those being captured by the Mughals at the time or the people in the region. And they would die fighting oftentimes. And so now we're in a position where there's, you know, millions of us, we have no excuse, we keep the aspiration for sovereignty alive. And we see it kind of thriving in places where we're allowed to express ourselves. Yeah. So I think we should talk about this kind of transnational repression. It's not by any means unique to India. I mean, famously, Russia loves to do this too, right? But let's talk about some of these incidents. There was a foiled assassination attempt in November of last year, right, that the DOJ arrested an Indian national for. There was a successful assassination in Canada and an attempted assassination just this week, as you say,

in Northern California? Yeah. I mean, transnational repression is not a new phenomenon, but what we'd like to do is actually have it addressed for what it is. Why is it that the American public understands or the Western public understands that Russia does it. But when it comes to India, it's almost seen as this kind of yoga, chai tea, peace-loving place where in reality, anyone from there and anyone that's been on the other end of kind of oppression understands what India truly is. So I think what we'd like to do is, I don't think it's unreasonable. This is a nation that is very openly going on to other sovereign nations' land and targeting their citizens of any religious background. So I think it's something that these governments should be taking seriously.

And the fact that it continues to happen, I think, is a reflection of how not seriously it's being taken. If it was, you know, if there's, you know, some sort of public statements, sanctions, if there was, you know, a full-on effort to say that this is a violation of our sovereignty, it would perhaps slow down. But it's continuing, and it's continuing rapidly, where we're seeing gunshots and um you know even though indian nationals are being extradited to the states it's not stopping so i think more aggressive action is needed and the fact that it keeps happening is is it just a reflection of how lax these governments have been as a result of these actions yeah you don't see it referred to

in the terms of transnational oppression or really like by the u.s government at least as this this like consolidated program it seems to be seen as like these incidents where then you know joining the dots and being like yeah this this is an attempt at repression you know murder of u.s citizens in the yeah these two cases right i know this has happened with other diaspora communities sometimes the like doj or someone within that has reached out to people in the community especially people who are prominent and been like there is a legitimate risk of someone trying to kill you has that happened within the sick community oh yeah absolutely um there's been multiple folks warned here in california in can, all over the U.S.,

that there is legitimate threats to your life. Though it's a problem because they cannot give you any more information than that. So you ask, where is the threat from? They say, we can't disclose that. It's confidential. So obviously Sikhs who advocate for sovereignty and freedom of their people back in Punjab know where the threat is from. And I think the underlying understanding within the community is that Western countries understand it as well. They're essentially waiting for when it is politically acceptable, when it is politically beneficial for them to actually say something about it. And I think we are under no illusions that these guys are going to speak for us for the

sake of justice, that they're going to express our perspective and condemn these nations based on the protection of Sikhs. We know our liberation is going to be the result of our efforts. We know our liberation is going to be the result of our efforts. But I think from a lobbying perspective, from an expression perspective, I think it is not unreasonable of us to expect that of governments where we are citizens. Yeah, like it's kind of the trade that you make, right? In theory, like you give up a lot of freedom and in turn you get safety and you're giving up one and not getting the other right now.

Right, right. Exactly. up a lot of freedom and in turn you get safety and then you're you're giving up one and not getting the other right now right right exactly i found out i was related to the guy that i was dating i don't feel emotions correctly i am talking to a felon right now and i cannot decide if i like him or not those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take real phone calls from anonymous strangers all over the world as a fake gecko therapist and try to dig into their brains and learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's pretty interesting if you give it a shot. Matter of fact, here's a few more examples of the kinds of calls we get on this show. I live with my boyfriend and I found his t-shirt in our apartment. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails.

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like in the 1980s more like confrontational attempts at califstan like independence were met with collective punishment by the indian state and and non-sick people right within india yeah so um going dating back to the 80s actually up until 84 there was no united movement for independence something else was kind of uh the face of the thick rights movement but in the document they had proposed to the government the anandpur side resolution it wasn't a proposition for exclusively six and i think that's an important point to continue to mention is that the way the indian state portrays khalistan is anti-hindu and i think they understand that to get the public support, we need to portray movements or anything really that's not in our interest as anti-Hindu. We need to make them feel

threatened. And if we can do that, there will be support for us to engage in these collective punishments. So in the 80s and 90s, actually, we call it the decade of disappearances, where the Indian government went from village to village, disappearing Sikhs. Hundreds of thousands. Essentially, our last generation was wiped out by the Indian state. And they would dispose of their bodies in crematories, throw them in rivers. And we basically say that there's a sixth river of blood in Punjab because that is just how many young men were killed from 85 to 1995. So there was an armed resistance against this.

I mean, they were seeing their sisters taken into police stations and all kinds of atrocities committed against them. They were seeing their brothers disappeared, their family members. So at some point, it is better to give up your life than to live in these circumstances. And so that is the brink that they were pushed to. And so we lean on their example, though the movement is not quite exactly at that same place today, we lean on their example in that saying, these people were willing to give up their lives for this cause. And us sitting in comfort, even if it's temporary safety, we have a responsibility to move this movement forward. And with these new assassinations, that's another important thing to mention.

We saw murders of essentially the biggest Punjabi pop star, Sidhu Musa, in history. I mean, this guy was in Hollywood. He was everywhere. And when he started talking about Khalistan, when he started making music regarding Punjab's rights, he was assassinated. And we're seeing a new wave of Indian oppression. And for the first time now, people that thought, oh, the 80s and 90s, you know, you guys could be making something up. Maybe the Indian government is right. You guys could be making something up. Now they're seeing these assassinations happen in front of their eyes and they're making the judgment call as to who is in the right and who isn't and i think that's another

reason that the khalistan movement continues to gain kind of solidarity within the six uh all over the world yeah sure like if uh yeah if the government is trying to assassinate people for just essentially saying something he disagreesrees with it. It's not hard to see like who's in the wrong. So I wonder, like, obviously, there's a genuine threat to Sikh communities here that continues to be a threat to Sikh migrants from both political parties in the United States. Right. Yeah. I'm interested, but not hopeful to see how their asylum claims go based on this very obvious discrimination that you've outlined yeah and there's this threat to sick people in their homeland in punjab how can people who are not sick who are not part of the community like be

in solidarity how can they support what can they do to like i guess yeah to stop people being murdered um well it's it sounds cliche to say awareness but at this point in time they're just enough people aware of you know how in danger they are because if they don't speak for six today tomorrow it could be them and if the western governments are allowing foreign nations to come in and they have embassies in these countries and they're allowing these nations to kind of, you know, assassinate their citizens, then what's to say that they won't be next tomorrow? It's the age old saying, there was no one left to speak for me. That's part of it is you have to understand the ramifications of ignoring something like this. So I guess the first thing we'd like to see is solidarity with that. Palestine now, most folks have an opinion on it, or at least they've heard the word. And they've seen Sikhs everywhere. We're the folks that walk around with turbans and we're one of

the probably 99% of people you see with turbans on our Sikhs. And so we're a very visible community. And so we're a very visible community. However, the reasons we're here, our plight, understanding of our background is generally lacking. So I think the more that we can understand who Sikhs are, what their beliefs are, what they're fighting for, why they're here to begin with, I think there will be more political pressure regarding that. And I'm seeing it starting to shift slightly, especially in the past five to 10 years. We've tipped the scales just slightly, but we're far from anywhere substantial.

Yeah. I think for like, at least for my group of friends, we go down to the border and help people. And we've encountered sick people because they were always there with us, helping right like some sick folks flew down from other places and joined us and stayed out there and helped us feed people and like sick folks have shown up for other people substantially like all over the world and i think it would be really good to see people kind of reflect that that solidarity that's kind of baked into the Sikh religion that it would be nice to see people doing that in return absolutely as Sikhs organized for their

own community safety like obviously there's like a pressing danger to people especially people who are vocal like a Sikhs organized to like take care of one another in that sense uh to some extent yes and again a part of organization and having support that comes from that organization is having political power and six have political power in in certain instances but they do not have a homeland or the resources to kind of back it up and you know politics kind of lobbying works with money so yeah the fact that we have these immigration problems a is a result of india's efforts but b the reason that they don't have the support they need is because six don't have a homeland where they can say all right these are our beliefs these are our people we support our people we will give them these

resources that they need so we're kind of always operating at a grassroots level. And that's part of the issue is why there's not grand or large scale change, but it continues to march forward. As generations grow up, as they become more involved in different facets, a lot of people, especially in the United States, are first generation. So our parents' generation was just focused on surviving. How are we going to put food on the table? How are we going to put a roof over your head? And so the next generation kind of has the opportunity to explore how they can make a difference for their people. So Canada is getting there. The UK is getting there. The US is behind just because our migration here was later than those places uh to that level but it's getting there yeah that's good so people want

to find out more about like the sick religion or like sick people are there good resources that you could suggest yeah absolutely i think there's a very thorough background of what Khalistan is just on Khalistan.org. Okay. So K-A-L-I-S-T-A-N.org. They have publications. They have documentaries. They've done a significant amount of work to give the background of A, why Sikhs will never stop fighting for freedom. And B, kind of what the circumstances are today.

So they've done a fairly good job at that. Other than that, there's pages on social media. There's Free5AB, which stands for Free Punjab. It's on Twitter, TikTok. And of course, TikTok has deleted that page many times. So we're trying to figure out where the where the alliances are there and instagram of course has done their thing based on their alliances yeah but there are some resources out there and of course if you google it the first things that are going to come up is times of india yeah you know hindustan times basically saying this is a terrorist movement that's funded by foreign governments to break the unity integrity of india it's a very rudimentary explanation basically rooted in

violence and how these people just have it out for us but the reality is entirely different and and the facts speak to that and i think the assassination attempts of today, the folks that remain in Indian jails today, there's a UK citizen in an Indian jail. There are folks that are dying in Indian prisons. There's folks that have completed their sentences, six, 30 plus years, still sitting in Indian prisons. So all of the circumstances today kind of speak to why this movement exists and will continue to exist. so hopefully we can take advantage of some of the resources out there yeah that's great and i hope people will go and like educate themselves you can look up calsa aid as well if you're interested in like the uh the sort

of solidarity and support side of Sikhism those people have been great at the border and i know they've done tons of other great humanitarian work as well absolutely yeah is there anything else you'd like people to know before we finish up here like about six or about khalistan or things they can do to help yeah um i think i would especially all the viewers i would like everyone to be open to the opportunity that there are more people in the world that are seeking to suppress and oppress than just what is told by American media today. At least be open to the opportunity. India is the world's biggest democracy today until it's not anymore. And communities like the Sikhs who have experienced violent genocide and today are experiencing a genocide. I think it's very

important to understand that the Sikh genocide never ended. It continues today in different facets and different forms. So that's A. And B, the struggle for freedom and sovereignty, they want to put it on. So indian state continuously tries to kill two birds with one stone um they have enmity with pakistan so they try to say that khalistan is a movement is a byproduct of kind of pakistani interference yeah even though the facts speak otherwise that if it's not pakistan that killed hundreds of thousands of six it's not pakistan that is assassinating six out in these foreign countries. So they try to kill two birds with one stone.

India is definitely not a democracy. I would like the viewers to be open to that possibility as well. And do your own research, of course. I have a perspective based on the circumstances that my people have been through. And I would hope everyone can form a more thorough understanding and that there is a lot more happening, especially in that region,

than is politically correct to say right now. So that's what I'll finish with. Yeah, that's great. Thank you very much for that. I think that's a really good place to finish. Thank you so much for your time. And I really appreciate you explaining that for us. Of course. Thank you for having me, James. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Explore queer sex, cruising, relationships, and culture in the new iHeart podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And we're kicking off our second season digging into Tex Elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech

brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. Welcome to Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get real and dive straight into todo lo actual y viral. We're talking música, los premios, el chisme, and all things trending in my cultura. I'm bringing you all the latest happening in our entertainment world and some fun and impactful interviews with your favorite Latin artists, comedians, actors, and influencers.

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