It Could Happen Here - UCSD and the Palestine Exception to Free Speech

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

James talks to a UCSD faculty member facing disciplinary proceedings for their participation in the Gaza Solidarity Encampment about UCSD’s history, the Palestine exception to free speech, and campus organizing. Sources: https://palestinelegal.org/the-palestine-exception See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, and welcome to the show. It's me, James, today. And I'm very fortunate to be joined by a member of the UCSD faculty, someone who is a professor of environmental physics at Scripps Institution of Oceanography. You're also teaching the Critical Gender Studies Department. And we're talking today about the disciplinary action that they are facing for participation in the Gaza Solidarity Incampment. So welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you, James. So I'm really happy to be here. Yeah, it's great to have you. I'm glad we can share our platform and talk about this. So I think to begin with, you know, it's been a little while. Perhaps I know a lot of people have sort of been investigating and changing their politics in the last year or so. So perhaps you could explain a little bit about the Guards of Solidarity Encampment,

the moment that came in and the role that it played in the anti-genocide of Palestinian liberation movement at UC San Diego more broadly. Yes, thanks again for this opportunity. So the encampment at UCSD was set up on May 1st, 24, and that was happening in the context of encampments that were being set up at universities across the U.S. I believe that the UCSD encampment was approximately the 100th encampment set up in the U.S. at that time. There's quite a number of interesting things about kind of the whole encampment movement.

First of all, the fact that they met with such severe repression is very suggestive about how effective they were in bringing the issues related to the genocide and the occupation of Palestine to the forefront in ways that certainly weren't happening in the U.S. at the time. Another thing about the encampments that I found really interesting, but also, I mean, I think brilliant from a organizing perspective is that they were very visually and viscerally recreating the conditions under which Palestinians in Gaza were living at the time and still are, having been displaced from their residences on. and being forced to live in these very makeshift of tent encampments. And so there was a recreation then of those conditions in a very visual way. And I think that that also was in some sense reminiscent of the shanty towns that were constructed on college campuses in the U.S., in the mid-80s in the anti-apartheid movement. So I think paying attention to some of those details which often get lost, we started talking about, you know, Rive Police and so forth.

These encampments were, they weren't just, you know, a bunch of students hanging out. These were constructed and developed in a very thoughtful manner. And that was definitely the case at UCSD, as I was told by students who were. participating at it as a space to engage in education and research about the genocide and about the occupation of Palestine, as well as the ties that UCSD had to the occupation and the genocide in Palestine. So you had, and I talked to many students who were actively engaged in this, you had students sitting on their laptops, doing research about the UCSD's ties to weapons manufacturers, the ways that UCSD supported the discourses that were enabling the genocide and the occupation,

including archaeological research. And also, you know, there was a program associated with every day, and the students would plan teach-ins. Sometimes professors would do the teach-ins, sometimes students, sometimes community members. There were teach-ins on a whole range of really interesting topics, including, of course, about Palestine, about the genocide, but also about other issues like the role of surveillance and surveillance technology in the genocide,

the eco-side that was happening. continues to happen in Gaza and Palestine. And so it was a place of, an amazing place of learning and research and also community engagement. So as I said, you know, outside speakers are being brought in. Community members were coming in

and participating and learning. And so, you know, those three things, research, teaching, and community engagement, those are precisely the things that the university tells us as faculty and students that we should be doing. So to me, the encampment was functioning, even though it wasn't getting any support from the university, and it was actually the university was throughout its five days of existence, was trying to shut it down. Despite all that, it was fun.

functioning essentially like any other research institute on campus. And I would say probably better than many of the research institutes on campus. Yeah. You know, I attended a few times to talk to people, to observe, to do my journalism. As you said, a university immediately was very obviously very hostile. You had people from like university administration giving out little flyers or something about like university. rules. There was constant presence of UCPD, constant presence of administration, constant concerns for people about their safety in the encampment. As you say, the university was very hostile to it,

despite it doing things that the university purports to believe in. Let's discuss briefly the history. UCSD hasn't always come down so hard on protest movements, but it also has I think of a history of handling these moments very poorly, I would say. So perhaps we could begin, yeah, if you could talk about the anti-apartheid movement, and then we can move through what people have called the Black Winter at UCFD and some of the other things that we both have some experience of. Yeah, yeah. So it's very interesting to me.

I mean, of course, you know, many people are aware of the history of student activism at UCSD. Many times when you just mention that, people immediately think of Angela Davis, who, of course, was fired by UCSD, but then went on to become a distinguished professor at UC Santa Cruz and just prolific and amazing scholar, academic, but not talking about obscure. academic topics, but, you know, topics that are directly relevant to people's lives, so many of those topics. And so now, of course, UCSD celebrates Angela Davis without mentioning that they fired her. So there is kind of a, there is a little bit of this, this, okay, we're going to try to suppress these commitments, but then later on celebrate that. So there, of course, were quite a number of other Stephen-led movements.

One of them, as you mentioned, was the anti-apartheid movement. And of course, that was also part of a national movement, especially Berkeley, was a very strong campus in that respect. But, you know, newer campuses across the U.S. were involved in that movement, as was UCSD. and at UCSD, the students, and this was in 1985, it took place over a period of about four or five months, as I recall. The students had numerous protests, and at the time for people who were familiar with the ECCC campus, UCSY has grown significantly since the 80s, but at that time, the central, meeting place for campus was in what's called Revelle College and on Revelle Plaza.

So there were numerous protests there, anti-apartheid protests. The students on several occasions set up replica of shanty towns on the Revelle Plaza, as happened at many other universities in the U.S. Those were basically replicas of impoverished conditions that South African black folks had to live in under apartheid in South Africa. So they were setting up the shanty downs to kind of reproduce those conditions visually. And additionally, during that four or five-month period, the students occupied the humanities library, which was called Galbraith Hall. It's just adjacent to Regal Plaza.

They took over the library, and they occupied it for a month, more than a month. Okay, yeah. And like all of these things happened, and there were no invasions of a riot police or anything. And what came out of that movement at the U.C.'s was that the regents decided to divest from all of corporations associated with South Africa. So that was like a major win. But it was not just a win for the student movements, but it was also a win for the university. Because the students were basically able to show the university that participating in this very unjust system was something that it shouldn't be doing. And so the students basically helped the university to see that.

And so by kind of allowing these protests to happen, in a sense it allowed the university. And I'm not singing their praises because, you know, they were quite retrograde in many ways as they are now. But by by kind of stepping back and allowing these things to happen, the university was able to learn from what the students were saying and had to act on it. So I feel that that moment in history is something that, I mean, I know the current administration hasn't forgotten because they some. celebrate it. Now, they say, you know, how wonderful we were for divesting from South Africa and look at our great students, you know. But okay, so that happened in the 80s. Before we get to Black Winter, I'm just going to mention one other event, which I think is significant, especially when we're thinking about encampments. So in 1992, UCSD was the only UCCamp.

that did not have a women's resource center. And women and their allies on campus had been organizing to get a women's centers since the 70s on the UCFD campus. Wow. But they had mostly been ignored by the administration or, you know, where are we going to find the money, blah, blah, blah. So it was student-led, but they were also, like, staff and faculty involved as well. because the problem misogyny was very real on the UCSD campus then, I arrived at UCSD in 1990, and I immediately saw that problem. So I was very aware of it. So the organizers then of this movement decided to set up an encampment on what is called Sun God Lawn, which is kind of a major open space,

on campus. So they set up this encampment and basically they reproduced what they envisioned a women's center would look like. And so they essentially opened a women's center in this open space. They set up this encampment. They staffed it 24-7 and it was up for a week. No arrests were made, you know, no disciplinary charges resulted. But the university then started paying attention. to the demand for a resource center. And it took them several years, but they eventually set up the Women's Resource Center that exists now in 1995. So again, that was an encampment where the administration was basically able to learn from the activists

on campus about, you know, how to basically kind of behave reason. Yeah. Let's take a little break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about the Black Winter, which coincides with the start of my own time at UC San Diego. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of very. journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Daniel Jeremiah. And I'm Greg Rosenthal. And this is 40s and free agents. The games may be over, but the NFL never stopped. This is my favorite part of the calendar. Yeah, mine too, Greg, free agency, the combine, the NFL draft Pro Days, trades. This is where teams reshape their future. This is where Daniel Jeremiah makes his money.

On 40s and free agents, we break down every move that actually matters. From my draft evaluations, mock drafts, and team fits. To my top 101 free agents and how real rosters are built, cap space, contracts, and all the tough decisions included. You got quarterbacks on the move. We got teams rebuilding. It's hope season. Yeah, absolutely.

It's hope season. We'll tell you what's real, what's noise, and what it means for your favorite team. Smart analysis, real conversations every week. I don't know about the smart, but definitely analysis. Listen to 40s and free agents on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, gorgeous, it's Lala Kent, host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Live on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala,

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Hi, Dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen. She says, I have some cookies and milk. This is a badass convict man just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk tomorrow. Yeah. On the Sino Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail, talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances.

The entire season two is now available to bench featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic. And without this trouble, I'm going to die. Open your free IHAR radio app. Search the Cito Show and listen now. And then the third example of this is something that's called Black Winter. And it's essentially a three-week intense period of organizing on campus. That happened.

I mean, it was in response and direct response. to a racist party that was held by one of the UCSD fraternities that they called the Compton Cookout. They put out a announcement on Facebook, which was probably the equivalent of today's Instagram. And I don't even know, probably many of your listeners haven't even heard at Facebook, but back then it was a big idea. Back then, it was, yeah, very big. And it was a, you know, just despicable racist description of a party where people were supposed to dress up as what they imagine.

People, you know, characters from Compton would look like. Yeah. And, of course, you know, students who found out about this were very upset. At the time, the students in the Black Student Union and in METHA, who were working very closely together, had been organizing for quite a number of years prior to this around, you know, what at the time, this is 2010, was called Campus Climate. And that's basically just the fact that there was a lot of racism,

sometimes overt racism, sometimes less overt microaggressions, that were very common. And for many, especially black students, but really all states of color and also queer and trans students as well who were basically how to navigate this,

like, every day. I mean, it was part of their everyday life. Yeah. So it was this extra burden. on our students. And they had been organizing around this for quite some times. They had written a report that was called, Do You See Us?

So, do you see us? In many ways, they were ready for an event like this. They were prepared. They had been doing a lot of organizing already. And so when this hit, they basically immediately went to the administration and said, you know, can you do something about? the administration said, you know, it's free speech. They deployed that phrase when it's useful to them.

Yeah, tactically. So that was the message they were putting out. And it very quickly became a news item. So local outlets were reporting on it, and the response of the university was free speech. And it basically started escalating. There were a number of students on campus at the time, probably still today, but maybe a little bit quieter. We were fairly openly racist, and there was one group.

They published a newspaper and newsletter, which was particularly so. And they also had a television show on, it doesn't exist anymore, but it's called UCST TV. It was kind of a local TV station. The Compton Cookout hardly happened on. Monday, and that was like a holiday in February. And then on Thursday of that week, the student groups I was talking about had a TV show, and they started using the N-word explicitly on that show. And a number of students saw that, and of course, were completely outraged. And so the students in the Black Student Union and kind of their friends were basically trying to figure out what to do.

And so they decided to call for a rally on Library Walk, which is one of the main walkways at UCSD. And they called for a rally right in front of where the chancellor's office was located at the time. And so they had this rally. There's quite a number of people. They called the rally real pain, real action. Yeah. You know, they were saying we were feeling real pain. at these kind of racist incidents, and we want to see real action by the administration.

Yeah. So they have this rally, and the chancellor at the time, who was Mary Ann Fox, came out to the rally, and there's video of this. It's a somewhat pathetic video, and basically the organizer of the rally were like chanting, leading the chance, and then the chancellor was basically following, the organizers and trying to put her arm around them, as if somehow that would solve everything. Yeah.

You just need a hug. And of course, the organizers were like, no, you're not getting near me. I don't want a hug. I want some action. Yeah. This kind of snowballed. The chancellor basically then met with a bunch of these students who had been at the rally, and they had a list of like 30 domains.

And she went through the list and it was just like there's video of this too. And it's almost, I mean, I just feel because I knew like a bunch of these students that I was like, oh, my God, you know, how awful this must have felt to them. But she was going through this list very rationally and dispassionally and saying, oh, you know, we can't do that. Sorry. But this one, yes, this one's done. this one's done. And the students were sitting there like, well, if it was done, you know, why haven't you done it? You know, if it's so easy to do. Yeah. And so nothing very definite came out of that meeting, but the university decided to make a teach-in the following Wednesday.

And I mean, of course, teach-ins are not things that people in power do. So they're obviously kind of co-opting and appropriating that term. Yeah. So what the students decided to do, because they knew that this was just going to be, okay, we're going to try to bury this, basically. Yeah, yeah. And so what the students did, they organized a press conference that morning, which a lot of press did come out to,

and they had really powerful speakers, and this was before they teach them. And then they just went on a march. They marched around the chancellor. complex, you know, continuously chanting, up to the point of the teaching. And so then they all went into the teaching. They had like 500 people by that time. And the room was just completely packed. And so they allowed the teaching to start. But then at some point, one of the Black Student Union members went up and said, we've had enough of this. We're not. going to do our own teach out. So they marched out of the teach-in and went around to this area

that has these steps. And just, you know, 500 folks, incredible concentration of black folks and people of color, students, and faculty, and all of their allies all gathered together, and they had to teach out, which was incredibly colorful. And that, day I said it myself and for many other people that I knew at the university, we basically all said, this is the best day we've ever had at UCST. It was so amazing. The next day in the library, in the main library, one of the students who was there found a news hanging in the library. And of course, I'm sure your listeners know that the news is a very powerful, symbol of violence against black folks in the U.S.

and so that was traumatizing for so many students. I remember getting text messages from students, you know, saying, you know, I can't come on campus because I don't feel safe here anymore. Yeah. So the next morning, the students held a rally again in front of the chancellor's office where there were probably, I'm guessing,

close to a thousand people and people just got up and were talking about what they were feeling in their analysis. The university came in. They sent a spokesperson to say, oh, you know, we have

the police out like looking for whoever hangs on the noose or whatever. And I mean, you know, police are not a comfort. Yeah, no one wanted to hear like we're sending the cops. at that moment, yeah.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So the students then went in and they occupied the chancellor's office for the full day, and that really made people sit up a nose. And by this time, there was international coverage of what was going on. There was an opening of the Civil Rights Investigation on UCSD. I was getting emails from colleagues, like in other countries, saying, what's going on at ECCC? Is this like, you know, it sounds like a KKK rally or something?

Not exactly that, but it's close. So then this all culminated about a week later in a huge rally where much of library walk was completely packed, filled with people. It was definitely blocked. And during that rally, the university said, we will commit to implementing these demands, the demands of the students. Of course, in the end, they backed off much of that. But so that was like a huge victory, and it did result in some pretty substantial changes to USCD.

I'll just mention a couple of them. So UCSD created a black resource center, which didn't exist before, a Razor Resource Center, and a intertrial resource center. So those were, you know, significant victories. They also created a undergraduate requirement or requirement that undergraduates take a diversity, equity, and inclusion course. And that was an attempt to try to change the climate and do some educating. You know, students in California universities come from all sorts of different backgrounds. and some of them are very aware of racism and its impacts and anti-blackness and it's impacts,

but some come without that knowledge. Yeah. So that was a significant help, but also at the time was boosted a little bit. It didn't end up maybe being such a great boost, but it did boost the departments that teach those kind of courses because now they had, you know, a significant, to be greater number of students. Yeah.

And we're getting more resources as a result. So all of those things were good, again, no arrests, no disciplinary actions.

And the university learned some valuable lessons. Yeah, definitely. Let's take a little break and when we come back, I want to talk about

this, this is like Palestine exception to free speech. Canadian women are looking for more. more out of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart.

And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Daniel Jeremiah. And I'm Greg Rosenthal. And this is 40s and free agents.

The games may be over, but the NFL never stopped. This is my favorite part of the calendar. Yeah, mine too, Greg, free agency, the combine, the NFL draft, Pro Days, trades. This is where teams reshape their future. This is where Daniel Jeremiah makes his money. On 40s and free agents, we break down every move that actually matters. From my draft evaluations, mock drafts, and team fits, to my top 101 free agents and how real rosters are.

built cap space, contracts, and all the tough decisions included. You got quarterbacks on the move? We got teams rebuilding. It's hope season. Yeah, absolutely. It's hope season. We'll tell you what's real, what's noise, and what it means for your favorite team. Smart analysis, real conversations every week.

I don't know about the smart, but definitely analysis. Listen to 40s and free agents on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, gorgeous. It's Lala Kent. Host of Untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast, Untraditionally Lala, I'm still that Lala you either love or love to hate.

I've been full on over sharing with fans, family, and former frenemies like Tom Schwartz. I had a little bone to pick with Schwarzy when he came on the pod. You don't feel bad that you told me I was a bootleg housewife? I almost flipped a pizza in your lap. Oh my God, I literally forgot about it. that until just now. Sorry, I don't want to blame alcohol. I got to blame that one on the alcohol.

This is about laughing and learning when life just keeps on life in. Because I make mistakes so that you guys don't have to. We're growing, we're thriving, and yes, sometimes we're barely surviving, but we do it all with love. It's unruly, it's unafraid, it's untraditionally la la la. Listen to

Untraditionally Lala on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I wouldn't stand on the middle autumn in front of him. I was, hi, dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen,

and she says, I have some cookies and milk. This is a badass convict man. Right. Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk at my mom. Yeah. On the Ceno Show podcast,

each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation,

and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to bench featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic. And without this trouble, I'm going to die. Open your free IHAR radio app.

Search the CETO show. And listen now. All right, we are back. Yeah, I remember that black winter moment. very well. I recently arrived at UCSD and I was like immediately taken aback by the brazenness of the racism. I come from Britain, not a non-racist country, but yeah, the openness and the cruelty and the delight that certain people took and that was pretty appalling. Now, if we skip forward 13 years, right, to the beginning of the genocide in Gaza, a lot has changed on campus, but also a lot

has not, right? It's still not a massively diverse institution, UCSD even compared to other institutions in the city. But from 2023 through 2024, right, we have this movement on campus to end the genocide in Gaza comes a movement that's about more than that, right, about liberation for Palestinian people and then broadly about like, I guess liberation in the region and what that means. And the university did not respond in the same way. This has led to people theorizing a Palestine exception for free speech. So could you explain that to people? And I thought you had a really interesting approach to it as a scientist that perhaps you could share with people as well. Yeah. As you said, kind of in the wake of October 7th, that marked the beginning of Israel's

genocide on Gaza. Obviously, it took many people quite a while to conclude it was genocide. But the I remember it was almost, maybe it was within a week or perhaps 10 days of October 7th, the coalition of Palestinian unions put out a call for labor solidarity in which they turned to what was happening in genocide, and there were also others who were doing that as well. Just personally, like I was in Syria on 7th October, I think I entered that day. I spent some time in Kurdistan, and I remember by the time I was conducting interviews in southern Kurdistan, maybe a week later, maybe 10 days later, Kurdish groups were using that phrase, right? Like, there was a sense of, like, impending disaster that came very quickly. This is what will happen next will be horrific.

But yeah, those calls came very quickly, as you said. Yeah. And of course, like students at UCSD were kind of also coming to those conclusions. The administration was putting out language that was, you know, sympathetic to those who were killed or, you know, injured on October 7th. But they were ignoring everything else that was happening. And so, of course, this wasn't a surprise, but it was part of what was happening. And it was also the kind of language that the university was using. And this is something that continued.

It was essentially recalling, even though it kind of had this neutral sense to it, it was recalling the decades of Islamophobia. anti-era racism that happened in the wake of 9-11. So in a sense, they were communicating by using that kind of language, language around, you know, using words like violence and safety and civility. They were communicating very clearly that people could talk about what happened on the morning of October 7th, but not about anything else. And that was entirely clear.

I mean, it's not like we had to do any deep analysis to figure out that's what the administration was saying. And, you know, as students organized over the following months, students who were engaged in that organizing or being subject to disciplinary investigations. There were some faculty who were investigating for mentioning the genocide and the occupation of Palestine in their classes, and all of these things were creating a climate of fear,

but also uncertainty. You could never be sure if what you would say could get you in trouble. And so the easiest thing to do would be to say nothing at all. Yeah. It's like a chilling effect on speech. Absolutely. So that was happening. This phenomenon, of course, wasn't invented by UCSD administration. It's something that's been going on for quite a while, many, many decades. As you mentioned, James is called the Palestine exception to free speech. There's a, if anyone wants to find out more about it. I mean, there's a huge amount of scholarly work on it. There's an excellent report that's available freely online, which is called exactly that,

the Palestine Exception to Free Speech, written by Palestine Legal and the Center for Constitutional Rights. It's very easy to find online. And one of the things, as a physicist, I'm very critical of of the role of physics in society. You don't have to think very deeply to be critical of physics, thinking about nuclear physics and so forth. But as a person who does physics, professionally, I often think about problems from a physics perspective. And so when I think about the Palestine exception,

I kind of bring a bit of a physics lens to it. So in physics, when we're looking at a phenomenon, we often can't observe that phenomenon directly. And so, for example, people who study the physics of subatomic particles, they will, to study how to subatomic particles interact, or many subatomic particles interact, they will collide them together. they don't have the precision and the resolution to observe exactly that interaction, but they can look before the interaction and then what comes out afterwards. And by looking at those patterns of what goes in and what comes out,

they can get an idea of what's happening within that black box. And so this is the way I view the Palestine exception, because the Palestine exception to free speech is just the idea that there are these structures in society that have been formulated such that it makes it very difficult to engage in speech about Palestine. And the impact of that, of course, is that if you can't talk about Palestine, then violence that's committed against Palestinians is something that's innate. It's facilitated by that lack of discussion. Like, I don't have access to the conversations amongst UCSD administrators or between UC administrators and the main office of the president of UC,

like, I don't have access to any of that information. In some sense, that's the black box part of it. But what we can see is kind of what's going in and what's coming out of that box. And so we can see the behaviors, the patterns of behaviors. And so as a physicist, I'm like, okay, if we're going to look at the UC and say, the University of California and say, is this a place where the Palestine exception to free speech is operating, then we're not going to be able to have access to the rooms in which that's planned, if it is being planned, but rather we can look at the pattern. And the really interesting thing about this report I cited by Palestine Legal and the Center for Constitutional Rights is they laid that out very clearly. They lay out, okay, the Palestine exception of free speech is basically a combination of these kinds of behaviors.

So they talk about things like accusations of anti-Semitism, for example, and accusations of support for terrorism. So if you come to any rally, pro-Palestinian rally, at U.S. UCST, there's always at least one or many counter protesters who are shouting exactly that. That this is anti-Semitic, that everyone here is supporting Hamas. You know, and when we say Hamas, you know, that just immediately goes in everybody's mind to terrorism. Yeah. All these kinds of behaviors on it to lay out are things that can be seen on UC wide campuses, but definitely at UCST. Yeah, yeah.

It's important to consider, like, as we enter a time where, like, repression of campus speech is at a height, right? Like, the combination of this Palestine exception and the seeming desire to expel as many international students as possible. But this is contrary to the reason the university exists as well as, as you say, it suppresses opposition to genocide. To finish up, I guess, we're not just doing this at the university because it's a place where we're, like to argue or because students are particularly predisposed to radical politics or for any other number of reasons, right? The university is also part of the apparatus. Can you explain that a little bit? Like the university is not neutral in this to begin with. Yes, that is certainly true. And I mean, and that happens in many different ways. Some of the ways we don't even know about, but there are many

of those ways that primarily through student research, some faculty research, we have some ideas. Basically, at UCSD and other UC campuses, there's quite a lot of military-related research. You know, some of that research is not directly related to the Jow side, but as we all know, the U.S. is supplying many of the weapons that are being used in the genocide and now in Iran as well.

And some of those weapons like drones, the aspects of them have been designed and worked on at UCSD. The hardware then of genocide is very much a product of university

research. Part of which has been done at UCST and other UC campuses and part at other universities in the U.S. and in Israel as well. Another aspect of it, which I think we don't know as much about this software, so, you know, there's a huge amount of research on artificial intelligence that's happening at UCSD, other UC campuses, other university campuses. I mean, all of that research came out of universities, you know, as we now know, through credible journalistic investigations that Israel is using artificial intelligence

and it's targeting. Yeah. And apparently that's also happening in the U.S. military as well. Yeah. You know, so there's like another very direct connection. A third connection, which is very strong at UCS. of course of many other campuses, is that part of the creation of a discourse

that legitimizes and justifies Israel's occupation of Paul Stein is archaeology. And I'm not an expert in this field, but I could just kind of cite what other people I've talked about. But there are many archaeological investigations that UCSD academics have participated in Israel, that contribute to creating this story that the people running Israel and Israeli citizens are the rightful owners of that plan, and that the Palestinians came in at some late point, maybe a couple decades before.

the founding of Israel, which of course is completely false, and there's so much scholarship about that. But that's the, that's the purpose of those investigations. And so, so again, that's connected to universities and to UCSD in particular. Well, it can't really argue that having a discussion about complicity and genocide is something that is of not of interest to, UCSD who doesn't do it yeah

it has to happen at the university because it is about the university I think

to finish up we've outlined why it's important we've outlined how anti-genicidal speech

when it is about Palestinian people is treated differently and we've outlined

why there is a chilling effect I understand some people especially international

students and non-citizen faculty etc have have real concerns and I want to

respect those but for people who would like to they should continue to speak out, right? Like, we all lose, even if you somehow are unconcerned by genocide of

fellow human beings, if the university becomes a space where certain things are repressed and where we can't stand up for each other. So, like, what resources would you suggest for those people as new students coming into university this year? They've lived half the high school years through this genocide. I'm sure many of them will want to continue advocating. What would you suggest for them. Yeah, especially for students, I would suggest to connect with organizations that are already kind of doing this work. So, you know, at UCSD, there's students for justice and Palestine, but there's also quite a number of other student organizations. Like tomorrow, we're having a major Earth Day rally where organizations, students for justice

of Palestine, but also anti-imperialist organization like Spark, and then other organizations like Green New Deal, students' sustainability collectives, they're all coming together to talk about Palestine, and the ecocide in Palestine, the genocide in Palestine. So I think that there are ways for students from a broad range of interests and backgrounds to get involved in organizing. You know, it's not like you have to start that from scratch. People are already doing that. It might be a little bit hard at your university to find those because of the suppression.

But if you ask around, you will, or if you look on social media, you will, you will find those folks. That's where I would start as a student. For faculty and staff, especially, it's a little bit more difficult, Because we're, you know, as employees were very vulnerable. Faculty with tenure are less vulnerable. But, you know, my case and other faculty's cases are examples of how tenure doesn't really protect you from this if they're determined. Yeah. So I feel that there's, again, here what we need to do is to kind of work collectively.

So you don't want to fight the system on your own. But find other faculty who are doing this work. And basically you can work as a support network and kind of collectively find ways to speak out, to support our students, which I think is in many ways our primary responsibility with regard to the genocide. and basically create spaces where it's possible to talk about to genocide.

Yeah, I think that's really important. I guess I'll just say, like, if you're a student or faculty and you see someone involved in its advocacy, like don't feel afraid to go talk to them and ask either. Like, I know, university can be intimidating, especially when you're a new faculty member or undergraduate, for that matter. Like, it can be hard to meet people and talk to people. But I think most people would be happy if you're. did. Is there anything else you'd like to share with people before we'd wrap up?

There is so much. I do hope we can talk again sometime. Yes, we will. But I also just maybe just want to say, you know, thanks to you, there aren't a huge number of spaces where we can have these kinds of discussions. So I'm really grateful, you know, I know that you're doing not just this kind of work, but also, you know, really going out. And, you know, reporting on stories that aren't being told. And so I'm grateful to you basically for doing that work. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com,

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