It Could Happen Here - Update from an Invasion

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

Robert sits down with Joe Kassabian to discuss the invasion of Artsakh by Azerbaijan, and what might be the start of a new Armenian genocide.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a fake gecko therapist

and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here. The episode you're about to hear was recorded late last night at like 2 in the morning due to the time difference between me and Joe, who is based in Armenia. As you may have heard, Azerbaijan launched another attack on the independent Armenian-majority region of Artsakh, which is in territory that Azerbaijan claims. Since we recorded this a couple hours after, the Artsakh Defense Forces have surrendered. There's currently negotiations and something that's being

called a ceasefire, although there continue to be reports of shelling and other violent acts by the Azeri military. It's kind of unclear what is going to happen. Tens of thousands of frightened Armenians have crowded the airport out of Artsakh. The pictures are pretty stunning and sobering out of fears that a genocide will be instituted against the Armenian populace in that area. The episode you're about to hear is Joe and I kind of talking earlier in the invasion, pretty soon after it happened, going over some of the history, what's going on now, fears for the future. So I thought it was still valuable stuff, but I wanted to let you know the situation has advanced since we recorded this, as is often the case when you're talking about, you know, unfolding events. So thank you.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about it happening here. And unfortunately for our guest today, it is again, this is not the first time that it has been happening where this person happens to live. Joe Kasabian. Joe, hey, how you doing, buddy? Hey, Robert. I would like to say it's good to be back, but this tends to happen a lot. We did, in between the first time you were on, or the last time you were on this show, and now, we had a surprise meeting in Dublin that was a lovely time. That is true. That is true. That is true. Yeah. And now, Joe, you are a podcaster, a genocide

expert and academic studying that, and also the host of the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast, which is a lovely podcast. And you are based out of Yerevan, which is the capital

of Armenia, which is the capital of Armenia, which is a country that is not yet being invaded, but is also in another way is being invaded right now, right? Like it's a complicated situation. Basically, the gist of it is, folks, if you're kind of tuning in, there are a number of different little republics in the Caucasus region. And one of the, like over the course of the last, like, I don't know, couple of thousand years, there have been a lot of Armenian people in this area that we call the Caucasus, right? And you have your couple of thousand years of history, around the 11th century, you get some claims start being made to this area in what is now called Karbak, Artsakh.

Artsakh. And yeah, now you've got this kind of area that is an Armenian majority region where the surrounding Azeri people argue that it is their land, their territory, that they should be allowed to take it. And there have been a series of wars that have been fighting, that have been going on over this area since the fall of the Soviet Union. And now, going on over this area since the fall of the Soviet Union. And now, as we are talking right now, Joe, you and I, the Azeri military has just launched a new invasion with the presumed goal, with the stated goal, really, of retaking this entire region and potentially the goal of engaging the Armenian military

in a wider, formal way, right? That's at least the way the Azaries have discussed it. The Armenian military, the Armenian government has said like, this is not, you know, Artsakh is not, uh,

Armenia. Um, this is not like our troops and stuff on the ground here. Um, but the Azaries have basically just said like, we are disabling Armenian military equipment. It's, it's,

you know, it goes back to december of last year i mean obviously this goes back even before then but if you start talking about you know history people's eyes are going to glaze over um yeah this the the war that was fought in 2020 obviously azerbaijan won and ever since then uh karabakh or artsak has been cut off from the republic of armenia through this area called the lashing corridor and it yeah according to the treaty it was supposed to be maintained by russian peacekeepers but it never was and specifically since december of 2022 karabakh has been completely cut off by the Azeri and Russian military and is effectively being starved out so it's been you know quite a long time and we knew like everybody knew the war was

going to come again yeah but we kind of assumed it was gonna be in like 2025 when the Russians are mandated to leave um but it started yesterday you know it started yesterday. You know, it started yesterday. It seems like, I think it's like the Azeris invaded right after about 23 tons, something like that, of essentially like bread was brought into like across the Lachin Corridor, right? Like literally the next day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. This tiny amount of food makes it into this starving populace. And then the next day invasion starts since december they've done as much as they possibly could to turn karabakh into what is

effectively an open air concentration camp and their military operation now what it is it it to me is it's a continuation of the 2020 war because they couldn't conquer Stepanakerts in 2020, which is the capital of Karabakh. Yeah. Due to external pressures as well as military capacity. Because during 2020, the Republic of Armenia, despite not legally, directly fighting the war, was, of course, helping karabakh with volunteers soldiers military supplies everything sure um this time they can't it's completely cut off and this is not a war of any kind of near peer powers the the local karabakh defense force called the art sock defense army is a self-defense group they have some heavy equipment but the vast majority of

it was destroyed 2020 so this is you know effectively like a local gun yeah trying to trying to fight the u.s army this is more or less a militia going up against i mean like the azeris one of their major suppliers of arms is israel israel and turkey yeah as well as russia russia as well too yeah um and russia is selling obviously to armen, as well as Russia. Russia as well, too. And Russia is selling, obviously, to Armenia as well. They actually aren't. We found out, I believe, last year. The government isn't the best at transparency, I feel like, is the best way to word that.

And we have been paying Russia for weapons since 2020. They have not delivered a single bullet since the last war. Sorry, I should have said, Armenia is paying Russia for weapons. Yeah. Yeah, once again, we are being fucked by Russia. But as far as the stated Azeri goals are, they're very different. In 2020, when the war ended, they could frame it as a victory because they took over all these areas that they lost during the first war, minus an area where about 120,000 people live in Stepanakert and the general outskirts there. But this time, the messaging is much different. It is, you know, the government must collapse.

You know, they only going to like this is going quote unquote until the end until they see a white flag from stepanakert so this is because now if they don't do that they can't spin it as a victory right right and you know since december the lashing corridor has been shut for everybody um people couldn't leave people who live in in Karabakh, who are in Armenia for school or whatever, couldn't go back. And now suddenly yesterday when the war started again, they are saying there's a humanitarian corridor through Lashin. So the goals are very, very clear here. And we know from their conduct in 2020, government propaganda, just the general attitude of the Azeri government towards Armenians, which is they can't exist here. This is a liquidation of the open air concentration camp that they've created.

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonora. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. Modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time.

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the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, I mean, Joe, first off, I guess what I want to ask is like, what, uh, what is it like in Yerevan right now? Because, you know, you are, you are not far from, from where the fighting is, is continuing at the moment, but obviously Armenia is not technically involved at this point, right? That's at least according to the claims of the Armenian government, the Azeris allege that they are striking Armenian military targets right now. What is it like in Yerevan right now? I think everybody is, I mean, you can see it on

everybody's faces. They want're just, they want information. They want to know what's going to happen next. There's a lot of protests yesterday and into the night because the prime minister came out and said, like, you know, we're not going to get involved. And he's not exactly very popular, despite the fact he kind of is our best option at the moment. So there's a lot of rightful anger towards him, towards Russia, towards the EU, you name it. Everybody's mad at everybody. So there's different protests. Yesterday, there was Fuck Russia protest. There was Fuck Nikol Pashinyan, who's our prime minister

protest. There was a combination of the two protests. They all kind of met in the middle. There was some fighting with the police. I heard reports that quite a few people tried to break into government buildings. That all seemed to have cooled off because I went down to the area where there was protesting and I didn't see any of that. But it seemed to have also started up again after I left. But again, it's only day one. People's anger is only going to get worse as the situation in Karabakh gets worse. Or, you know, the fall of Karabakh and Stepanakert, if and when that occurs. I have a hard time believing that the current government here in Armenia will survive. They'll either resign, be forced out.

An unfortunate third option might happen especially with the the messaging coming from russia where they're blaming armenia and specifically the prime minister for all of this because since september of last year armenia has been doing decent diplomacy in turning towards the West. There's American soldiers in the Republic of Armenia right now for training. We've sent supplies to Ukraine. We've all but left the CSTO, which is like Russia's shitty version of NATO. Yeah. So this is clearly not very functional, right? Like, yeah, yeah.

I mean, this is a fact. I mean, this is a green lit punitive expedition on Russia's behalf. Effectively. Yeah. And this is, um, you know, a couple of things. So like, obviously the way in which the, the paper on paper alliances here kind of like chart out is, is not, um, friendly to the sort of like soundbite media of of our current day right because um armenia on paper armenia is like big supporter has been

russia recently right as well as azerbaijan like the day before russia invaded ukraine they like cemented an alliance but you know because azerbaijan has been very overt i guess you could say and their support for ukraine giving them money and you know supplies here and there non-military supplies but humanitarian supplies yeah this gets spun in the brain dead info sphere as it being like another russian that being Armenia is being invaded or, you know, people equate Karabakh to Crimea and Ukraine's war goals. And since Azerbaijan is,

you know, a PR ally of Ukraine and supplying the EU with gas and supplying you with Russian gas as well, it gets spun as like people are cheering for azerbaijan which is is absolutely baffling to me like it i wish i could say i'm confused or surprised but like when you treat war like it's a team sport you want to put on your favorite football jersey or whatever yeah like this is how it goes uh when you know karabakh declared independence from azerbaijan during the the azeri soviet socialist republic

when that was legal to do and the state that they have created is one of the most free in the region whereas azerbaijan according to like the free the the freedom index is one point above the taliban controlled afghan state at the moment yeah so like this this the moment. So this is not a liberation. A dictator cannot be a liberator. No. And a lot of what is happening and why Azerbaijan is engaging in aggression right now is due to what's been happening to the price of oil and what that's done to the Azeri economy, right? I mean, it's a pretty standard page in the authoritarian playbook, right? Of course. I mean, they're a classic fascist dictatorship. And so far as, you know, every problem in the state that they have, of which they have many,

because it's effectively a kleptocracy built around a petro dictatorship, is caused by Armenians. They're, you know, every single anti-azari piece that gets published in any media and you can use the term anti-azari to mean like literally anything is funded by the like the armenian lobbying group which i mean any jewish conspiracy theory that we all know and hear about constantly in a Azerbaijan, you just replace Jewish people with Armenians, and it's functionally the same thing. So we're this global superpower with our tendrils and everything, but also we're weak and pitiful and need to be destroyed. It's the same kind of messaging that we're used to hearing for classic fascist propaganda. hearing for like classic fascist propaganda and you know the as far as like why they're doing it now is because they've so ensconced themselves in um the european good graces in the over the

last little bit they know nobody nobody's going to stop them the eu literally can't and the united states i mean they're an outside player when it comes to European politics, at least internal politics. And they are only loosely connected to Azerbaijan. They do some military funding, but it's mostly to do with these weird ghosts of the early global war on terror, where they're looking for friendly Muslim powers that would act as counterterror forces. But Azerbaijan is secular. friendly muslim powers right that would act as counter-terror forces but azerbaijan secular secular this this war has nothing to do with us being christian or them being muslim yeah though though it does tend to be free uh framed that way by the worst people imaginable yeah it it it slots conveniently for a lot of people into those but like this this is, I mean, again, as I tried and, you know,

this is we're kind of like throwing this together in media res. But like this is we're talking about like this is the result of a very long period of conflict and movement of peoples in a region where they have been for thousands and thousands of years, right? Like that's like it's not. I would say the current uh conflict is mostly rooted in about the last 30 35 years um i mean the ancient the ancient history gets thrown around a lot by like propagandists but this is a direct result of the soviet union's

policies it has nothing to do with like you know the 1300s would you take it back though to like um like world war one right where you've got you've got this like very brief period where like azerbaijan and armenia and georgia all attempt to have this like almost little like caucasus u.n or eu of their own right and then they all get like gobbled up you know, over the course of the end of the war by Turkey and then by Russia. Like it's this like that's kind of where it all results from. Right. That's at least that's my understanding of it. If you want to go back that far, it has more of a result of early Soviet policy and specifically Joseph Stalin before he took over the Soviet Union.

He was the head of like the the office of like minorities effectively yeah he he arbitrage georgian yeah he's it's so is baria yeah yes and he he redrew the borders to include what is today karabakh within the borders of what effectively would become the Azeri Soviet Socialist Republic. And during the entire period of the Soviet Union, which, you know, a lot of people like to frame as this, there's no problems when the Soviet Union controlled these areas, which is, you know, magical thinking. There were protests by the Armenian populace, right? Like for... There was a lot of protests during the 80s. You have what's called the Karabakh movement wanted either A, Karabakh to become its own Soviet constitution, which did exist. I mean, it was largely fluid and completely ignored as we see today. And that triggered a lot of different

pogroms between Azeris against the Armenian population within Azerbaijan. And Armenians did the same thing here as well. But that started the first war, which ended with Armenia winning and Artsakh becoming a de facto independent republic, not recognized by anybody to include Armenia. during this kind of like early 90s period where the U.S. was – there was some belief that the U.S. would act if like these conflicts got out of hand. That was like often proved wrong, right? The best comparison is effectively Kosovo. Yes, yes. because of geopolitics you're getting involved in this war whether it be in the 90s in 2020 or today is it's not geopolitically advantageous like telling azerbaijan to go fuck themselves by supporting uh art sock armenians doesn't help anybody geopolitically um if if it was russia invading us it would be raining weapons from the west but geopolitically doesn't benefit anybody to support us

and you know like there's this concept of like ethics and morals from superpowers whether it be you know the bastion of democracy in the united states or this concept of european ethics and morals in the eu like that's all propaganda vaporware it's not real um if your country is being helped by any of these countries it's because it benefits the countries that are helping you geopolitically it's not because of they they support whatever it is that you're doing, you know, and because the Republic of Armenia itself is kind of in the situation as well, but the people of Artsakh are certainly in this situation. And so like right now,

I mean, honestly, like what, what is there to do, but watch, right? Like, is there,

is there, do you have any kind of of hope for sort of positive productive action at this point? Or are we kind of stuck in this, we're going to see what the next chapter of this conflict looks like as it kind of rolls out here? Well, there's two options, really. Stop it through military force or let the largest genocide of the 21st century go unimpeded. Right. Because the reason why our prime minister said that the Republic of Armenia is not going to get involved is because it literally cannot. You know, we have Turkey on one border that will almost certainly be involved if we do. The Azeris also have guns pointed at our southern border, which they have said

for years now they want to conquer. The Armenian military is not a superpower by any stretch of the imagination. And since we are not connected to Artsakh in any feasible way, it would require a massive counteroffensive to just relieve Stepanakert from the current siege, right? There's a reason why it didn't happen when they were being starved. So Armenia lacks the ability to stop this. However, there's multiple countries in the world, mostly France and the United States, that could end this in five seconds if they truly wanted to. Yeah. You mentioned at the start that there are US troops who are in Armenia right now. And my thoughts are drawn back to in 2019 when Turkey carried out an expanded invasion of some of the regions in Northeast Syria that composed Rojava. And US peacekeepers pulled out

previous to that. Now, the US troops who were in Armenia were training. They were not there as peacekeepers, but- Right. They have no mandate to do anything. And there's only like 200 of them from some National Guard unit. It's not like it's a brigade combat team. And pressures, whatever you want to call them, are simply not going to happen. The European Union is not going to sanction Azerbaijan. They rely on their oil. And Azerbaijan has only become more powerful in this petro-diplomacy since Russia invaded Ukraine. The United States has no functional sanctioning powers over Azerbaijan that could really affect them. And not to mention, as we've seen since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, sanctions don't stop wars.

Yeah. I mean, they never had, like, again, this is something the left is supposed to know, right? After like what happened with Iraq in the 90s. But like, they don't, they don't do anything. No, of course not. I mean, the only thing that stops a genocide is military force. And there's never been a genocide that has not ended from military force from one actor or another. keeping U.S. troops in the area, not even as like a viable combat force, but as a like, all right, Azerbaijan, if you if you are going to like disrupt the territorial integrity of the actual Armenian state, then, you know, we've got people who are in country and and so you'll have to you'll have to kill them, you know, and that's that's something that people have been arguing for a long time now, not necessarily Americans exactly, but some kind of international peacekeeping mission kind of worried of what happens next year. Because if Azerbaijan does complete the conquest of Stepanakert, which unless someone gets involved, they will. I need to be practical about these things. And once that happens,

Russia won't have the sword of Damocles hanging over the Republic of Armenia's head anymore. So it does make us wonder. And everybody is very, very stupid if they think Azerbaijan stops with Artsakh. In September of last year, when I was on your show, they were invading the Republic of Armenia. They were not invading Karabakh or Artsakh. They were invading the Republic of Armenia. And their stated goals have not changed. The only thing that would happen

is that this thorn in their side over the last 30 years would not be there anymore. They would have no impediments at all within what is considered their own borders. They could focus everything on the Republic of Armenia. So people who believe

that this ends in Stepanakert, you only have to go back to this time last year to see that is not the case. The only thing that's going to happen is maybe they'll take a little bit of time. The war is coming to Armenia. This massacre will come across our borders. It's only a matter of, massacre will come across our borders it's only a matter of is it one year two years three years that that's the only thing so without some kind of immediate intervention the slaughter will continue until they're defeated that's you don't negotiate with people who want to murder you it's impossible no you you can't and it's it's also this is a very dangerous situation in part because like the reason why armenia is acting now right in part is because you know they have been watching and i think like keying and like sort of um editing their behavior as a result

of how the russian campaign in ukraine has gone Yeah, they definitely see it as a way to get away from Russia. I mean, like any small state in Russia's sphere is doing right now, with the exception of Georgia, who's kind of a freeze and a number of conflicts around the world that we have seen thawing out for the last, really the last five, six years. It's been particularly like accelerating this kind of like thaw and a bunch of these old frozen conflicts. And part of why is that there's this understanding by a lot of these regional powers that like, well, if I kick the fucking door in, nobody's coming after me. Right. And Azerbaijan understands that to a certain extent, which is why they acted the way they

acted last year in September. I mean, the CSTO is a joke, but it does have a mutual defense clause just like NATO does. So invasion of our borders should have triggered it. And that was if people had some kind of not sure if Russia could commit to other things, that cemented it for a lot of people. It cemented it for Armenia specifically. I mean, we're still technically legal members of that alliance, but we have no representation in it anymore. We don't take part in trainings. We don't go to meetings.

We're functionally out of it. And we certainly will be after this i believe but i mean the it as an example of how you can't really negotiate with someone with this kind of ideology in so far as from this position like i'm not saying that like this only ends with international peacekeepers hoisting a flag over baku yeah with this kind of power discrepancy the the azaria government has said that they will negotiate with the government in stepanakert in karabakh once they dissolve and lay down all their weapons so once you completely disarm and get rid of all of the ways you can defend yourself from the obvious slaughter that's coming your way then we'll talk is that really a way is that is that a way of any negotiations

could ever happen like being realistic of course it's not the government of karabakh is the only thing the government of karabakh and the the small local self-defense force is the only negotiating like little crumb that they have because it's it's stopping them from being murdered and for people who think i'm being like i'm overreacting or something look at how they treated that any armenian civilians that fell into their hands into the 2020 war they cut off their ears they cut off their fingers they cut off their noses they fucking beheaded them it was like watching isis videos but they're wearing multi-cam and into the 2020 war. They cut off their ears. They cut off their fingers. They cut off their noses. They fucking beheaded them. It was like watching ISIS videos,

but they're wearing multicam and wearing fast helmets. Yeah. And they published them proudly on the internet. They're not ashamed of this. You can only imagine what happens when a city of 100,000 people falls into their hands.

Yeah. And that is, I mean, we're looking at something around like, yeah, about 100,000, 120,000 people who are still there. Our media cannot solve this problem. We do not have the power to force them to the negotiation table to guarantee the rights of existence for people where they live.

The countries that do are now friends with the country that is doing it so it requires some actual diplomatic spine and the thing is is you know the the joke is every time someone is deeply concerned about something you take a drink and then you die alcoholism but you can't say you know we we call for an immediate cease of the military offensive without an or. Or what? Or fucking what? What are you doing? You can't use strong words to stop a fucking ballistic missile.

Yeah. There needs to be an or. We're staring at about a century since we had a series of conflicts, many of which were based around different sort of like regional powers, scapegoating, and then carrying out acts of tremendous violence against groups of people, including specifically the Armenians. Every time, like a tale as old as time,

it's being treated as an anti-terror operation. And you can go back to 1915 during the first genocide, and it's the same exact excuse the Ottoman Empire used. Well, and it's being treated – that's how the Azeris are excusing it. But over here, when you're talking about U.S. politics, when you're talking about Western politics, it's a thing that's happening over there, right? Like it's a couple of countries that most people don't know very much about. And like, what is our, why are we involved in this? And it's like, well, because this is the thing that we said, like after a hundred something million people died, the idea that we all kind of came together with was, well, we should probably stop folks from doing some of the things that led to all of those terrible wars. And we just don't anymore. And you often hear people frame it as, oh, those people have just been fighting forever.

Yeah. No. We haven't. It's been within my lifetime. I'm 35 years old. This war is not older than I am. Yeah. There was not always mass violence between like the the people in this region right like azeris and armenians have not been killing each other over artsak for thousands of years right like that's uh yeah it's it's there's armenians and about as old as volvo us yeah they used to live next to one another we're not this intractable millennia-long enemy. This isn't one of those conflicts that you can...

I mean, you shouldn't do that with any conflict because it's a scapegoat to get you to stop caring and educating yourself about it. But specifically in the context of this episode, certainly not this conflict. This conflict involves very recent events. And it's tied to major geopolitical events happening in the world right now that whatever country that you're living in and

listening to your country is involved in and it's i mean like the the the actual as far as i can see the actual like realistic solution here because this is not a case right i don't think like shipping a bunch of fucking weapons is a realistic thing to hope for like the actual realistic case for stopping this is putting people in the country that uh provide some sort of like barrier to azeri aggression right like that's like it's taking action we need the same thing that we did for Kosovo. Yes. Yes. It's exactly what we need without without any kind of negotiations or debates like. Yeah. That is the only thing that will stop what is coming. It's not an if. people you know the azeris are buying israeli arms uh like this is a a situation in which like we're not talking about we don't need we don't need guys kicking in doors we literally need dudes standing around to create a a barrier by the the the sheer political fact of their existence right that's all it takes and not to mention if you're trying to frame this in like an anti-imperialist context or whatever as much on is literally a fascist fucking dictatorship like the yeah i under armenia we have our problems karabakh they have their problems

you know but they're functioning representative democracies and with with people in land that they've lived on it's i mean there are other people who are indigenous to that land as well but it's it's all also theirs it's if you want to think of it in that way which i don't really like to do because it's it's dirt but the the real issue here is the people the people's lives are like it doesn't fucking matter who controls the panikert at the end of the day if people are allowed to live there and live their lives in dignity in the way that they choose to live them yeah but that's not going to happen if the fascist dictatorships genocidal armies come storming through right it's it's simply impossible and that's one of the main

reasons why karabakh uh karabakh armenakh Armenians and the Armenian state as well has continuously said that Karabakh can't exist within the frameworks of the Azeri Republic. Because the Azeri Republic is demonstrously anti-Armenian. For instance, if you have an Armenian surname like I do, you can't even go there. It doesn't even matter if you've even been to this country or not. Simply existing is enough to be denied entry. It's not a place... I mean, if you want to see how they'll be treated, look how they treat their own fucking people. liberated by the fucking forces of north korea or saudi arabia or something it's obscene it's absurd the the only thing that like and i'm not saying i support the government in armenia as any as anybody who knows me i don't support any government but the only constant track they've had is we we support their right for self-determination as anybody should. And they voted in the 80s to be on their own.

Not to be part of Armenia, not to be part of Azerbaijan, but to be the Republic of Artsakh because they're the only people who care about their own rights, their own dignity, and their own right to existence. That's all anybody should ever defend

is people's rights to do that. And ever since they've made a functioning state with free and fair elections ministries that handle these things ministries of health ministries of uh of defense ministries of education it's a functioning republic it's not some statelet that barely functions yeah and so the the the powers invading it don't only mean to destroy those the separatist power only mean to destroy the separatist power. They mean to destroy the people that live there. There's no room for them to exist in this country.

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me as the fire and dare enter? Nocturnum, Tales from the Shadows, presented by iHeart and Sonorum. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network,

available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone

from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough,

so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. On Thanksgiving Day 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida

from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story

is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Joe, what do you expect us to see coming in the next couple of days here? As we, you know, we are about 24 hours in right now to the renewed Azeri attack on Artsakh. Like, what is your kind of expectation for what happens next? Well, the Artsakh Defense Army is doing their best. Yeah.

I mean, obviously, they're fighting as hard as they possibly can. However, without immediate international intervention in some capacity, I mean, physical intervention, a you will stop or this will occur type situation. It's only a matter of time until it ends. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's um and to quote the former head of doctors without borders you cannot stop a genocide with doctors yeah there's only one way to stop it and you know like i've said a million times before i believe before on your show yep the only thing that's allowing this to go on is the unwillingness of literally anybody to get involved and there's a couple of quotes about that yeah exactly it's it's not a new

concept yeah and genocide studies as someone who studies war studies genocide and has fought in war war is fucking awful and i don't want it for anybody i don't want a zary kids the conscripts to be fucking dying for this i don't want armenians to be dying for this but the only thing that's going to stop it is someone who is not armenian not a zary and certainly not fucking russian to say stop or we will fucking stop it yep yeah i think that's um i think that's as uh as good a point to close on as there is um as we're going to find at least joe do you have anything else you wanted to kind of like bring up before we we roll out here um i would i would this is normally where i would say you could support the people involved in this in this way, but unfortunately, they're under siege, they're surrounded, nothing can get to them. I got nothing, man.

Yeah. I mean, that is the reality, right? It's like, there I'm not overly optimistic. The Biden administration has been making noises, but I have not seen evidence that they're going to do more than that yet. So I hope they do. I will say if the United States gets involved and they really want to turn Armenia to the West, which they absolutely should. There's no better time like now. This is the chance to do it.

You want to show that like the West is the way for Armenians and pull them completely away from Russia because everybody wants to get the fuck away from Russia. Like there. Yeah, there's thousands of people marching down the street literally saying fuck Russia yesterday. But you need to give them a path to do so and this is the way to do it yeah well shit thanks joe sorry sorry we keep having you on the show in this uh this situation i uh we'll we'll we'll come on and talk about something i don't know know. We probably won't. Neither of our shows ever talk about anything. Neither of our shows talk about anything lighthearted.

Check out Joe's show, Lions Led by Donkeys, the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast, great military history podcast. Joe, thank you for being on. And please, I don't know. Good luck. Thanks for having me on rob yeah it could happen here is a production of cool zone media for more podcasts from cool zone media visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts you can find sources for it could happen here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com sources thanks for listening you should

probably keep your lights on for nocturnal tales from the shadow join me danny trail and step into the flames of right an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into tech's elite and how they've turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search,

Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech brought to you by an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. I found out I was related to the guy that I was dating. I don't feel emotions correctly. I collect my roommate's toenails and fingernails. Those were some callers from my call-in podcast, Therapy Gecko. podcast, Therapy Gecko. It's a show where I take phone calls from anonymous strangers as a

fake gecko therapist and try to learn a little bit about their lives. I know that's a weird concept, but I promise it's very interesting. Check it out for yourself by searching for Therapy Gecko on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts.