It Could Happen Here - Wagner Group in Africa

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

James talks to Dermot Cosgrove about the human rights abuses committed by the Wagner group in Africa and why these weren’t reported until the group began doing the same thing in Ukraine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And so what we wanted to do here was kind of paint a picture of how they have a long record of human rights abuse. Dermot's more expert in Africa, so that's what we wanted to do here was kind of paint a picture of how they have a long record of human rights abuse. Dermot's more expert in Africa, so that's what we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course. And I just wanted to give some more information. So we recorded this on last Friday. Today is Tuesday, the 1st of August. And we talked a little bit about the coup in Niger, which has continued. And, uh, since we recorded Evgeny Prigozhin, who of course is the head of Wagner,

the founder of Wagner, the oligarch who's in charge of that private military contracting group, um, made a statement sort of not exactly saying like, oh yeah, we did this coup, but more like saying, uh,

oh, cool. I see you've had a coup. Uh, what you could use is a group of mercenary Russians who are prepared to do incredible and horrific violence on your behalf and let us know we'll roll up um also since then ecowas which is the economic community of west african states it's a west african bloc there has threatened intervention in nigeria if they don't sort of return to a democratic

process uh and then mali and burkina faso to other countries that are run by military governments military more or less hunters have threat have said they'll like stand with niger stand with the niger coup so it threatens to destabilize again the whole region right you'll see lots of misinformation about this on twitter i've seen a ton of stuff from like just tanky accounts who don't fully have a grasp on what's happening in this part of the world and and i think it's quite dismissive to just use africa to further your whatever your political agenda is rather than treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living in these countries right especially in this year and where people are

already often struggling to get by really struggling to make ends meet like sanctions on this country will hurt them sanctions on this country will hurt the poorest people in this country a military dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality of life for people and i would like to see people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument about decolonization like it's uh that's not what's happening here what's happening is that the powerful people have wanted more power and they've taken that at the expense of the quality of life and often the lives of other people obviously with with mali and burkina faso saying that they would like support support Niger those are both governments that struggle to support themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies and and other like our movement so it's you know not not a hugely I guess serious threat but still

very destabilizing and again like this will have negative impacts for everyone living there which is the thing I'd like to focus on so we're going to start here with Dermot introducing himself and then we'll go from there. My name is Dermot Cosgrove. I'm a French Foreign Legion veteran. I was six years French Foreign Legion and since 1996 I've worked across Africa and the Middle East and a little bit of South Asia as a security consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies, infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media. Nice. Yeah. So I've been a journalist, been covering that field for not quite as long. I've been a journalist, been covering that field for not quite as long. But one of the things that I remember seeing in a pre-pandemic is this rise of this Russian mercenary group, Wagner Group, in Africa.

It was just not an area of interest to any US publication. Generally, stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I know that you were obviously on the ground looking at this. Can you maybe just start with when you sort of first became aware of them and what you were seeing well I first became aware of them with their activities in the Central African Republic when the um when the the mayhem broke up there a few years ago, and the EU started sending in troops. There was quite a lot of heavy fighting. Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still quite a lot of fighting going on.

Next thing, these Russians showed up. And it was just a little bit kind of, yeah, I'd heard about them operating in Syria. But, you know, next thing they were in of all places the central african republic which you know is a is kind is you know a little bit of a backwater in the middle of africa it's it's squashed in between chad rwanda burundi the congo places like that and it's um historically it's, it's been, there's always been a French, French presence there. But it's always been a place where there's been quite a bit of conflict around it. Yeah. Yeah, not like a consolidated,

like nation state, really. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of a lot of different people um it's not an identity that like fits with with identities on the ground and necessarily so yeah what was their role there what were they they doing as like a sort of mercenary or private military contracting group well they they were really operating a bit in the shadows they were they had come in apparently they were supposedly there to train the governments, the Republican Guard of the Presidential Guard. But there was also word that was starting to leak out where they were involved in the diamond mines. And they

were moving all over the country. They were heavily involved with militias. Then word started coming out about there was murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this story broke where three journalists, three Russian journalists, disappeared. They'd been following the activities of Wagner in Central Africa. And I think the last thing that we've seen of them

was that they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There was just, they disappeared in the bush. And that was, I suppose, that was kind of the first peak that these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there had been a company in russia years ago who were the alpha group and they had basically they were basically the afghan veterans but they operated kind of in the shady oligarch section of security in russia itself but wagner group were a completely different animal you could tell from the

right from the start these were they had a different model yeah very much so and like a different model to even like like there are various like I guess like national perspectives to private military contracting like there was a time when you like you could sit down in a hotel bar in lots of places in africa and be assured that someone with a south african accent or someone who would claim to be from rhodesia would like come and talk to you and that was their industry and they would say some racist shit it's hard for me to not like hear a south african accent and be like oh fucking i don't want to have anything to do with this but obviously that doesn't define everyone from south africa by any

means but yeah like there was that there was there were a lot of colombian people in that industry as sort of the civil war in colombia became but these guys are kind of different right like they seem to be operating more like on behalf of governments or people who would be in government who would like to be in government yeah and yeah explain how they do shit just differently well they they seem to have taken the uh well you'll be familiar with executive outcomes the south african mercenary organization and executive outcomes business model was when they operated they went to the client and said right okay we'll sort out your problem but we want a percentage it wasn't a

paycheck or a contract kind of a great dollar sum for uh for a contract it was they wanted a percentage so they would clear like Outcomes cleared out some of the diamond fields in Angola, and I think their going rate was something like 15%. Wagner Group seemed to have done that, taken that model, but at the same time, they've rolled in a little bit

of the Black Water type idea in Iraq, where they were operating as an arm of, Black Water were operating as an arm of, you know, Blackwater were operating as an arm of the US government. They were, you know, Paul Bragner's personal guard and

Bragner seemed to have combined the two along with making Hollywood movies because they've made a couple of movies. One about Central Africa and these Rambo-esque kind of movies. And it's just like, what the hell is going on here?

It's very strange. I think we maybe can't divorce it from that kind of global war on terror, for want of a better phrase like era yeah kind of cult that developed around the u.s special forces and and they're like it's why you can buy navy seal soap right and like they've they tried to do a similar thing but with a private military contractor do you know like the what's the composition of these like most like pmcs from i guess western nations will be ex-military people is that the case with wagner or where are they getting people from yeah it's it's um from what i've seen up there the people that

brought in is that you've got a core group of russians who come from the more elite units um who come from the more elite units. Now, they've been really assigned to the money-making contracts in Africa. So they've operated alongside Malian troops. And the whole idea there is that if they do take control of zones in the Malian government is actually giving them a percentage of mineral extraction and whatever in the region. There's also been talk of their blatant intimidation and protection rackets of other Western companies working

in the Sahel. So they'll rock up and kind of go, we'll look after you. ISIS or Al-Qaeda won't get you if you pay us a fee. And then if the company go, well, that's crazy, then suddenly attacks start happening. But they seem to be a core in Africa, at least. And in Libya, where they were heavily involved, there was a core group of Russians who were there. And then surrounding them, there was kind of lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya, especially during the fight in there, when they fought for Haftar, they brought in Syrians. They were known to have brought in um a few other

different nationalities of basically guys they'd gathered in other countries and offered jobs yeah so you had i think there was about 15 1500 2000 um syrians at one point because there's these huge numbers of w Wagner kind of being bandied about on maps and stuff like that on the internet and it's it's smoke and mirrors actual proper Wagner personnel are wouldn't be massive numbers but they've got you know they bring in these almost auxiliaries from the likes of Syria or other places that they've been in right yeah and they another thing i guess that was unique about them was like with that they were obsessed with posting on telegram like i've never seen uh yeah just incredibly online uh in to include like evidence of their

war crimes right which or i guess sometimes not at war at all human rights abuses would probably be more accurate yeah yeah we should probably talk about some of those just so people can get a sense of I think what I'd like people to take from this just to like uh be explicit about it I suppose is that like all this stuff was happening in Africa there was no lack of evidence or people trying to say it and it was not paid attention to by the government or media really especially in the u.s but also elsewhere and then every body suddenly got sad when it happened in ukraine because it was happening to people who were more valued and i think we can we'll keep fucking up like that if we keep ignoring um especially yeah yeah yeah i mean

i mean i'm i'm shocked in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions put on, because there's been, there's been two UN investigations into their activities. There was the, they, they were, they were complicit in the murder or actively participated in the murder of over 300 millions in,

in a village only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation. They've been found to have been there, been participants in it months ago there's been a u.n investigation they've been found to have been there been participants in it and there's nothing and i'm you know you're not seeing any u.n sanctions you're not you know you're not seeing anything uh going on the world seems to be turning a blind eye to it in libya i mean the bbc had a had a report, a special report, where they'd actually found the iPad of one of the Wagner operators with tons and tons and tons of evidence as to what they were doing, numerous human rights abuses. And again, it's just like, yeah, that's fine. We won't really worry about it.

Oops, Ukraine. Yeah. that's fine. We won't really worry about it. Oops, Ukraine. Yeah, and it seems shocking to people, I think, if you're just a consumer of the New York Times or something. Wow, where did these guys come from? They're terrible. But they've been there for years, decades maybe. And because our news is very focused on certain countries and certain things, it came as a shock to people. Maybe you can explain like obviously the human rights abuses began in syria um i don't think i need to detail there are videos that people can find on their own time if they want to yeah

some brutal executions and such. An anthology of modern-day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone-chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. I know you. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But yeah, could you like at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've where they've done that in africa i can think of three or four countries at the top of my head well there's there's valley is the instant one there's the the the big one which i think was 300 civilians were murdered they basically rocked up in a village, I think it's Munia, or Munia is the name of the village in Mali. They rocked up with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and murdered 300 people, including was absolutely 100% guaranteed. There was Wagner operators did murder and behead local villagers.

Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there was, there was an attack against a convoy, which included Wagner personnel and their response was to rock into a village and execute 10 people. So, you know, that's two cases that, again, unless you're looking, unless you're kind of aware of the certain sources that are available and looking at local journalists who are in these countries, it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to light.

You know, there's Central Africa know there's uh central africa there there's been rapes murders there's been mass rapes there's you know there's been executions torture you know it's just off the charts in mali there is actually a known and it's becoming famous in mali there is the torture house in inside one of their bases in Mali and it's becoming it's widely known it's there you know it's the multinational organizations the UN the EU all know about its presence they all have the evidence and yet there's nothing there's still nothing being done yeah and I think it's easy like a thing that happened if you remember when they were right in France uh was that people would be like oh well like you know France is in all these countries think it's easy like a thing that happened if you remember when there were riots in france uh

was that people would be like oh well like you know france is in all these countries in africa which obviously comes from a legacy of colonialism which was violent and terrible but uh there are other forces like i remember someone positing that like mali had been liberated from french control uh france left left, but these guys came. It wasn't as if there was a democratic transition of power or

a desirable outcome. And I think... I mean, even this morning with the coup in Niger, there was a tweet put up by one of the Russian Twitter accounts claiming that

the coup had been orchestrated and managed by Wagner who were liberating Niger from the colonialists. It's just like... Yeah. They actually believe their own... Do they actually believe their own stuff? It's just amazing.

Well, it's very well it I don't know if they believe it, but it seems to be very well targeted to get people to believe it online, right? Like there's this whole sort of hammer and sickle in bio community that thinks that what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denazifying and when you couple with a lack of media coverage of africa and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there it's very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it i mean i think that's that's that's an education thing and a media thing yeah but it's i think a thing people may not be aware of is the one thing that has been reported a lot is the heavy, heavy losses have taken in Ukraine, right? Often in like, they're almost penal battalions that they have, like, they'll have convicts and things like that. Can you explain, like, I think this might lead people to believe that they're not capable of doing what they've

done in Africa for a long time. But that's not correct, right? They're still sending, I guess, operators to Africa. They're still doing their terrible shit in Africa. Yeah, there's been, even recently, there was a lot of flights being picked up moving in and out of Africa, which were Wagneragner wagner associated aircraft and at first it was you know this happened around the time that they made the move towards um back into russia towards to towards putin and there was a lot of questions as to

is this a pullout of personnel to support what's going on in Russia? And then it stopped, and the flights started coming back in. So it looks like there's been a ramp-up, again, in a lot of African countries. So it looks like they're upping the personnel. Now, whether they've cut some kind of deal where they're now just going to be a moneymaker, I'm not quite sure, but that will remain to be seen. If they have orchestrated Niger,

which is possible, then it's clearly kind of a ramp-up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up local populations because they whipped up anti-French sentiment in both Mali and in Burkina Faso.

And the French did bomb and carry out drone strikes, which did kill civilians and stuff. But the massive reaction to these incidents was definitely by wagner at the time it is a very lucrative almost informal empire for russia right like it's a very lucrative way for them to continue this process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of african people and often in ways that are not that distinct from the colonialism that we saw you know 150 200 years ago and with your real like you've detailed brutal uh human rights abuses and all extends all to just extract wealth and resources from africa in a very similar way to what we've seen before but in a less formal way i guess than you know with french

and british colonialism yeah it is it's it's um it's very much a corporate imperial as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way and it's you know the money is flowing into the pockets of the you know the oligarchs and stuff in in russia i mean the there was a i was in a bit of a discussion this morning um about about niger and someone made a comment about there being oh there's not the if you look at them the sahel map and the mineral wells that oh there's there's more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction further south into the congo but the thing is in and i've worked in mauritania you know you have mauritania which is three times the size of france with a population of four million and yet only one percent of the country has actually been serried for its mineral

wealth and it already has massive gold iron and iron ore deposits and copper deposits. If you go over into Burkina Faso, it has huge gold deposits which are underexplored. It's relatively, the vast majority would be artisanal mining. The same with Mali. And if you go across

into Niger, you've got the huge uranium mine, which is a keystone of the French nuclear industry at Arlette, which would be worth a fortune to whoever would control the territory. So it's a very colonialist, I suppose, manual to what Wagner are doing, but it's very much a corporate model

as opposed to coming in and establishing governance. They're quite happy to leave administration and governments and stuff like that to local governments, but they want the mineral wealth and they will manipulate and embed themselves with the local military. You've got Mali, it's governed now by a military junta. Niger is likely to be the same. And you have Burkina Faso, it's not quite far off that either. So in these countries, if you don't have the backing of the military, you've got nothing, you're not going to be in power.

So, yeah. And if they control the military and they control it in power. Right. And as long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire to extract wealth and they don't care. And yeah. And it's, you know, the other part of it is they're, they're bringing in all the toys for these governments as well. They're importing drones, they're importing weaponry, helicopters, you know.

Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit, because that is something they seem to have, like Eric Prince tried to get himself a plane, right, and he didn't really do very well. But their access to military hardware is unprecedented. So where are they able to obtain all that? Oh, they're definitely in collusion with... I mean, whatever tensions there are in Ukraine

between the Russian military and Wagner, there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the Russian military when it comes to securing hardware for Africa. Yeah. I mean, there was brand new Mi-24s unloaded in Mali only last year. And they made a very, very big show of the French leaving and these helicopters arriving. the French leaving and these helicopters arriving.

So, you know, there's been Turkish-built drones are starting to, are coming in left, right and center across all with the aid and shipment by Wagner. So they're, they have incredible, with Russian-produced equipment, they have incredible access to it produced equipment they have incredible access access to it and it can only come from one place it only it can only come from the military and you know undoubtedly you know we've we've seen russian troops arrive in ukraine with weapons that are 50 years old because there's nothing on their bases Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill.

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Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again. Simple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything, from music and pop culture, to deeper topics like identity, community,

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Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex's elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, Better Offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. Nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field. And I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people.

I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Well, kind of, it's very clear that there's nothing on their basis because these weapons are showing are being transported for use in africa yeah they've done the same in myanmar right they're still selling planes they're still selling munitions there and it's yeah yeah like it's it's almost like a uh i don't know there's like a corporate and a state structure

and sometimes it seems like especially well we see that in the u.s too i guess but they're competing they're competing desires they're parallel one doesn't one doesn't have sort of oversight of the other one thing i do want to get into is this culture that exists within wagner that is it's an extreme glorification of violence right and a glorification of sometimes of Nazism yeah of other sort of related kind of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies and you can see a lot in the telegram can you speak a little bit to that yeah it's been um there's definitely been an element that these guys have been recruited from right wing in the Russian military. And we already know that some of these units were heavily involved with the Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyhow.

And we've seen across, it's been hugely in evidence across some of the towns where there's been fighting in Libya, where Wagner had left graffiti of the Sonnenrand and a lot of these other Nazi symbols. And there is this whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I mean, the executions, beatings, the torture of local non-white people in there that come in contact with. We've seen it in Syria, brutal executions. It's very much a white supremacist

far right. It's not even undertones because it's so blatant. It's right in your face. I mean, they just don't hide it on their telegram channels. They don't hide it where they go. We've seen military patches that they're wearing which are extreme

right. Graffiti they leave behind which is extreme right. I haven't seen the movies they've made, but I believe there actually is a lot of extreme right you know even i haven't seen the the movies they've made but i believe they're they're actually there's there's a lot of image there as well which would be you're right up the street of kind of neo-fascist organizations as well yeah it certainly seems that they're pretty explicit about it and no one's they don't care they i mean yeah gzian supposedly called it Wagner because it was Hitler's favourite composer, right?

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, there's crossover between some of the other Russian far-right organisations and some of these units, these far-right units who are in Ukraine and Wagner. There is a cross-pollination of personnel as well. Yeah, yeah, it certainly seems. They sort of go back and forth with the military. I think people would say it's more of a distinct entity than it perhaps is. Yeah, they're not a...

There's guys from Wagner will show up with other organizations from time to time but then they seem to kind of drift back to Wagner

and seeing that especially in Ukraine in we saw this well in Libya there was there was guys that were identified

who were operating in you know with Wagner in Libya who definitely had you definitely had operated with other organizations as

well. They had been, I think there was a number of them had been photographed

that had actually been ID'd during some of the football violence in Marseille during the European Cup

a few years ago. So they're in this circle and they are moving over and back between different organizations. European Cup a few years ago. So they're in this circle and they are moving over and back between different organizations. But again, it's a massive

far-right entity. Yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of the armed extreme right. Yeah. It's been festering for a long time, unnoticed by a lot of people i wonder like yeah yeah yeah you've mentioned like if people aren't paying attention they won't see things which i

think is right because it's not you know it's not on primetime tv or tv at all where would you like where would you go for coverage especially if in parts of Africa where you're working? I would use Twitter quite a lot to look at what local journalists are doing in places like Mali and Niger. I think I started off using Twitter in Yemen when I was working there because I was 50 kilometers from a town that was entirely controlled by Al-Qaeda. And every one of them was on Twitter. They were all posting on Twitter. And there were some fantastic local journalists who were posting on Twitter as well.

So you got to see in almost real time what was happening in these places. And when there was no other media, really. And I carried on using Twitter. And then because I do write security reports, digging around, and there's a couple of uh online analysts and awesome people who are on who cover kind of global conflicts but they do cover quite a lot in the sahel okay yeah so you would have like the likes of war noir and people like that were very good on the art side of things yeah he's very good at uh he keeps an eye on miyamara as well yeah um yeah there's a few

useful accounts i think you do share them on your own account sometimes as well i've seen i do yeah from time to time i'll share them on my own yeah um what is yours if people want to follow along see pictures of your feet it's it's uh dermot and cosgrove all right so d-e-r-m-o-t-n and then cost of c-o-s-g-o-r-o-b yeah wonderful it is one of those things that like we talk about you know like in many ways you're where people spend too much time on twitter and you know when it dies it'll be nice but like it is something i was talking to colleagues in rwanda uh you know a while ago but i remember when going to Rwanda one of the things that they ask you is are you verified on Twitter this was before you could buy a verification for seven dollars or whatever it actually allows a lot of people to work especially in parts of Africa it

gives them sort of like especially in places where the government is hostile to journalism it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes, make them a little bit safer. Also to be able to share these things. Yeah. Yeah, and losing that, there's no other platform that does that. No, there isn't. And it's a pity that it's actually gone down the road it's gone down.

I mean, I work a month on, month off, so I would be a big twitter user when um when i'm at work um because you know gathering information from my reports and stuff and then um and at home i'm not on it so much but you know for local journalists and and activists it you know it's a fantastic it's it the whole idea is fantastic because they are able to get that message out they are more visible in countries where they've got repressive regimes and it keeps an eye on them and the more visibility they have, it wouldn't be 100% safe

but they are a little bit safer. Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in Myanmar as well just sort of it's only out out to the world you know the irrawaddy and all these other publications which are um yeah able to get things out and lots of those people are in hiding you know like they can't operate in cities and they're able to get things out to the world so like for that alone it's valuable and and yeah it's a shame that it seems to be going the way it's going. Yeah, I think there was even during the, well, even currently, there's still some people in Afghanistan who are,

it's their only outlet to get information out about what's happening under the Taliban regime. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in touch with a few people in afghanistan here that it's you know that would all be lost i wouldn't have ever found them otherwise um or some of them know through friends yeah um i want to finish up by asking like this the stuff that wagner has done in africa is repulsive stuff it's done in syria is disgusting like what if you had your your like if you had your way like how can people or how can governments or what can we do to stop

this kind of you know human rights abuse um i think there's as much pressure should we can that can be put on um in states obviously, with congressmen and senators, that if people go to them there, in the UK, government, you know, I'm Irish, you know, we have a long history of peacekeeping and stuff like that, and, you know, investigations of human rights abuses.

So, you know, it's putting pressure on your politicians that action needs to be taken, you know, and the UN, I'm not a massive fan of the UN It's putting pressure on your politicians. That action needs to be taken. And the UN, I'm not a massive fan of the UN because they have been so ineffectual in places. I mean, my brother was in Lebanon on three separate occasions with the UNIFIL force and came home and described it as one-hand clapping because they even hamstrung their own people. But there you know,

there isn't, outside of the EU, which can enforce sanctions on them, you know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone associated with Wagner. And there needs to be more, I mean, the EU has pretty much been

kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be more, a better relationship built up with these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are, there is no real other choice. But there has to be a way where Wagner has to be highlighted. If you know journalists, get to journalists. Ask them, why aren't these questions being asked why is it only being the focus and I'm a big supporter of Ukraine

but why is it only since Ukraine that we're seeing Wagner televisions they've been murdering people they were putting kids toys in Libya as they retreated out

of uh out of uh western Libya yet none of that appeared you know the the one BBC report kind of came out and it died afterwards which you know is you know horrendous you know this needs to be they need to be hammered left right and center yeah and I think a lot you're right a lot of that comes from if you find editors you can ask them why they haven't covered this when it was happening in africa like they were putting human beings in holes in the ground yeah i mean you know if you're on twitter jump on twitter follow the follow editors news organizations and you know tweet at them and just why aren't you covering this yeah make them say or make people explain why this doesn't matter as much and the same with your politicians like i know sometimes

writing to politicians can seem ineffectual but like i can't put sanctions on them you know and i can't i don't have the ability to project force yeah and i don't think there's nothing that wagner produced that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going to buy, you know, I'm not going to buy this product because it impacts Wagner. They don't care. They're, they're not selling to the consumer. They're, you know, they're stealing to put in their own pockets. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was, that was wonderful.

That's, is there anything you want to, else you want to plug or anywhere else people can find you learn out more learn more about this stuff um well well i'm on um twitter is probably the best place i have kind of promised myself to do a little bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in because because i work in north africa um the Africa and even though I'm not in the Sahel itself, the Sahel has been it's always been a massive area of interest for me so

I've kind of I probably will kind of flip my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's going on across the Sahel so I'm on there I i've got a i've got an instagram account but that's only really if you like pictures of dogs yeah that's uh that's what it's good for yeah

well thank you very much for your time do it we appreciate it and uh yeah hopefully people learn a bit more about this it could happen here as a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadowbride. Join me, Danny Trejo, and step into the flames of riot. An anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America.

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