It Could Happen Here - What's Happening in Immigration Court

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

James talks to immigration lawyer Kirsten Zittlau about the end of the asylum system as we knew it, detentions in courthouses, and the case of Primrose from the Darién Gap series. Donate to Primrose's legal fees: venmo.com/u/kirsten-zittlauSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. It's me, James, today, and I'm joined once again by Kirsten Zitlal. We've heard from her before. She's an immigration lawyer who takes asylum cases. I'm going to talk about the asylum system, or I guess what's left of it today. Kirsten is representing somebody I met in the Driere Gap, Primrose, who you've heard from before. So we're going to talk about that case and then we're going to talk a little bit about

ICE detentions inside immigration court. Welcome to the show, Kirsten. Kirsten Thank you, James. It's good to be here. James Yeah, thanks for coming. I know you're extremely busy. Can you explain to us, like, the asylum system is essentially coming to an end, right? We are not getting new asylum cases. Like, what

is the situation for people in the asylum system right now? Yes, that's a correct statement, James. So there are no new asylum cases. In other words, people who cross at the southern border are now detained only to be removed immediately, basically, or as soon as possible under what's called 212F authority. It's under the Immigration and Nationality Act. Trump has used this authority, which basically broadly says that if the president finds a certain class of immigrants or the entry of immigrants would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, they may by proclamation, you know, suspend all entry of said immigrants. So that was the purpose and the effect of the executive order discussing the invasion

at the border and all the other executive orders discussing invasions and criminal aspects such as cartels and Tren de Aragua, which we all know now is the justification for, alleged justification for just shutting it down at the border. So whereas people used to get credible fear interviews or were paroled into the United States to be allowed to fight an asylum case, none of that is happening anymore. And people are, if anything, only screened for what's called Convention Against Torture screenings to just determine like, hey, are they going to be tortured by their government or with the acquiescence of their government if they return to their home country. But even then, they are not allowed to remain in the United States or fight any relief in

the United States. That just means that they will be deported to a third country. So that was the situation like when we saw the Iranians sitting in the hotel room in Panama. That's what happened there, most likely. So that's the situation at the southern border. Whoever is still in the United States, who came in before inauguration day is still allowed to fight their case as of now. But

there are no new asylum cases, essentially. Right. So for those people fighting their case, the asylum system was already an uphill battle, right? And it became harder after Biden's asylum ban. It was already harder after Title 42. Like people who listened to the show would have known about the people who crossed in 2023. And of course they would have followed those people who I met in the Derringham Gap, some of whom, very few of whom crossed before January. Literally one, I believe that I'm aware of. Can you explain what the asylum system is like for those people now? Yeah, so I think the biggest two factors affecting asylum cases these days is what you just referred

to, which is the asylum ban called the circumvention against lawful pathways that barred people essentially from asylum if they did not use CBP-1, the application to apply for an appointment, which of course only allowed, I think, $1,500 a day or something absurd, forcing most people to cross unlawfully. So that's still very much in place. The litigation has been stalled forever. There's no hope of, you know, I don't think there's a movement on that. I haven't seen or heard anything. Most likely intentionally, because when Trump did a similar ban, it was overturned immediately. So this is like a new strategy that we're seeing where things are just lagging in court. For example, just a quick side detour, the birthright citizenship issue got up to the

Supreme Court real quick, whereas the asylum issue, meaning the border shut down to asylum, is still languishing somewhere before I think even just a federal district judge is not even in any appeal to court yet. So this is all, I think, strategic. So that circumvention against lawful pathways ban is still very much an impediment. You know, we all, of course, argue that every migrant in Mexico was in danger and thus qualifies for the exception to the CLP that their life was in danger and they couldn't afford to wait the many, many months for the CBP-1 appointment. But judges, it's been met with mixed reviews. They generally like to see somebody basically near death for the

exception to apply. And of course, the immigration bar argues that all migrants are basically under threat of death. I mean, any cartel or even immigration official contact in Mexico could have been a death sentence very easily, as we all know. So that's a big thing affecting the latest thing that's also being implemented as a result of this cartel terrorist organization designation is, you know, where it's not just the cartels, it's MS-13 and 10 de Aragua, is that there's a what's called a trig bar that's applied then also to asylum. And the bar is basically about material support of any of these groups, but it's construed to an absurd degree where even if you made a bowl of food for some Maras under duress or you made payment

because your kid was about to be killed, that's considered material support and you're barred from asylum. Geez, I wondered if they would do that. So we're seeing that too. Other than that, I mean, I have been fortunate to win asylum for folks under Trump 2.0. I mean, I don't know how long that'll still last, but judges are still, you know, granting cases. So I'm glad to see that. Yeah. So that's generally what it's looked like these past four months for asylees. Okay. Yeah, I think it's really important that we do that there are

still possible like victories to be had within the court system. And asylum is one of the places where like, there's no more getting on the train, I guess, like the people who are on the train now, we can and people should if they have the financial means and we'll talk about how they can do that later. People should support those people because there's no one else who can go through that system and like there are people who have gone through horrific things to get here and horrific things in the places that they came from. And even if it's not everyone, we would like to keep safe. We should do everything we can to keep those people safe. 100%. Just to say, I mean, and funding somebody's legal fees, I mean, an attorney makes all the

difference in navigating these types of issues that I just talked about and other issues in presenting your case. I mean, asylum cases are still incredibly difficult to win. And so representation of counsel is often key. Yeah, I think that the rates of success people who don't have counsel are dramatically lower. I haven't looked on track recently, but you can normally find that on the, I think track is no longer the University of Syracuse, but it did someplace where you can find information statistics. Let's talk about one of those cases if that's okay. And obviously, you know, we won't intervene in anyone's privacy anymore than we have to. But like, I want to talk

about Primrose. Primrose is Zimbabwean woman who I met in Bajo Jikito when I was in the Darien Gap reporting on my series, people heard from her in the series. Even me, I was crying myself. I was like, I want to just put myself in the water. Then I can just go. Both the journey was tough. Really, really tough. The mountain, the stones, the river. It's not easy at all.

It's not very. I don't even recommend it to someone to say, use that in Gap. No. And even myself, I did know about it. I was regretting myself. I was crying. I was like, God, I don't know my family and my family, they don't know where I am right now, but I make it. So I'm just thankful that I make it. You're safe. Yeah.

She is now in the asylum process, right? Can you explain a little bit about like where she is in the process? And I will eventually do a scripted series on this. But like, I guess, can we get an update on her situation and how it's progressing? Absolutely. So I came into the case about, I want to say a month or two ago, as she had somebody supporting her, a friend living in Texas. And that situation, a living situation has changed, I believe, which is also not the worst thing. She will be moving with a friend to Southern California, or moving in with a friend rather. But just the situation is very different in Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi and those types of states, markedly so and her case is a good example of that. And there's a reason that people like Mamou Khalil and many others are sent to detention centers in that area because it's in the

Fifth Circuit, first of all, which is widely renowned to be not a favorable circuit, a court of appeals to immigrants. But more so than that, even the judges themselves are very different from what we would encounter in California, for example. So my first encounter with the judge was, you know, and this is all virtual, I submitted a motion to appear for her. She had a master calendar hearing in June. I submitted a motion to appear for that telephonically explaining I was representing her at low or no cost, you know, whatever funds could be raised and could I please appear

for a status, it's a status type conference, telephonically. And that motion was met with a really strange response. I don't, to this day, I don't really know exactly it was sort of approved, but then moot because eventually a final court hearing was set. So that's where we're at right now. She has a final court next year and about a year and a couple months. But in ruling on my WebEx motion, I was emailed the order of the judge along with a notice that PermaROS should self-deport. So judges are sending out these notices with routine other orders in cases where the immigrant has counsel, is fighting their case. Yeah.

It's obvious they're fighting their case. Jesus. And, yeah, so it's one of the things where you just feel very strongly this administration's influence. Are they obliged to do that? Or is that a choice that the judge is making? Not at all. And in fact, it's completely inappropriate.

So all of us are... The immigration bar is taking a different approach to it. Some are filing motions to recuse, telling the judges, hey, you need to recuse yourself. You're a non-neutral judge to send this out in the middle. The case is absurd. It's a due process violation. They're entitled to a neutral judge. I think my approach would be more one of playing dumb because often this has happened, the

system, if you will, of ECAS, the electronic system that we use for court immigration filing systems that Elon Musk briefly had access to or whatever was going on there. But anyways, I digress. We'll send out automatic notices with the emails with the judge's orders. So my approach, I think, will be to give the judges the benefit of the doubt and ask them if this was an electronic notice and if they say no, then I've gotten it on the record. And if they deny the case, I have that in there for the appeal. But yeah, it's happening all over the country with all sorts of different judges. And it's definitely something that we're grappling with right

now. And it's just, it's very ballsy for a judge to say, hey, leave the country. And oh, by the way, I'm a neutral arbiter. Yeah. I mean, what's the point of having the judge or having the whole process, right? If then they're going to declare this clear bias. Yeah, it's absurd. I mean, it's such a violation of due process rights. And I know everybody in this country now knows the importance of due process, whereas before only attorneys threw that term around. But no, I mean, this stuff really matters, you know? Yeah.

And then also another thing that happened in Primrose's case is that when you have a work permit clock, right, which is another absurd thing for asylees, that once they file their asylum application, they have to wait 150 days before they can apply for a work permit. And of course, they're expected to be independently wealthy during those five months or, you know, or star over. I don't know what they're expected to do. Yeah, rely on the generosity of others. Exactly. So if you do something like try to change venue or a motion to continue, if you do something in your case that the judge perceives as not moving the case along and rather like kind of trying to stall it or possibly pausing it or slow it down, the

judge will stop the work permit clock, the days, and it's a whole thing. So Primrose's was stopped because the judge wanted her to get an attorney. So usually when the case is set for a final hearing, that code, adjournment code, they call it, I know from, we have the access to the codes and what stops the clock and what doesn't. And it always restarts the clock because you moved your case along because you're setting it for trial. It's, you know, obviously moving your case along. Hers was not restarted for whatever reason. And my only remedy would be to write some court administrator who may or may not ever

respond. I can't even go to the judge about this. You know, it's absurd. So that's just the situation that one asylum seeker is dealing with in Texas. So you can only imagine what goes on in detention, you know, detained cases in those states. Yeah, or people who don't have counsel. Like getting that self-deportation notice if you don't have counsel, like you could assume that you are just obliged to leave and like that your process is over. 100%. 100%. And there's no legal basis for the judge to be issuing that. In fact, it's completely unlawful to be issuing something like that at the beginning of the case. At

the end of the case, and at the beginning, the judge does have to give certain advisals, but telling somebody to self-deport is never an advisal that should be given under the law ever. Right. Yeah, like it kind of nullifies the whole system. And plus, I should mention real quick that it's disingenuous and harmful, and that what these, you know, this administration on purpose isn't telling people with the thousand dollars, take the thousand dollars in self-deport and you know, we'll pay for your flight and all this stuff. What they're not telling people is that when you leave, you're then subject to a deportation order and that comes with a 10-year bar.

This is not mentioned and that's a big deal. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it seems even like, I think the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right? like, I think the executive order said permanently leave the United States, right? Well, it did. And then, but then they switched tactics a little bit with the app to self-support, saying like, you know, leave now, leave now so you have a chance to come back later or something like that. Right. But, you know, without mentioning that, hey, no, you're barred from the United States for 10 years. And if you ever return unlawfully, then you're subject to a whole series of, you know, I mean, it's just there's all these warnings that need to come with the deportation

order that are strategically left out of all the administration's latest messaging on this topic. Yeah, that's, that's pretty bad. Let's take a break for advertisements here and then we'll come back. I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, resilient favela life and much more.

All real, completely uncensored. This is Unique Access with straightforward underground reporting. We're taking you deep into the dirt without the usual airs and graces of legacy media. A way that showcases what the mainstream cannot access. Real underground reporting with real people, no excuses. For the past decade I've been going to places I shouldn't be meeting people I shouldn't know. Now you can come along too. Listen to the your way days podcast reporting from the underbelly on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published and he was unlike any first time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. I spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary. He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity.

He was an adrenaline junkie, and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my spleen, break my ribs, I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. I had a stomach puncture in my screen, break my ribs, I had my fex all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Roger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong.

You're so wrong on that one, Roger. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GO! Boy on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops call this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple.

Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two, and three on May 21st, I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glodd. And this is season two of the War on Drugs Podcast. Sir, we are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives.

This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug means. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown.

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It really does. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple podcast. All right, we are back. And we've spoken about these like self deportation orders, right? For other people who have entered more recently, right? Entered within the last two years, been this this has been happening, we're recording on the 22nd for the last two days now, it seems like ICE is dismissing the cases against them and then detaining them directly in court, if I'm correctly informed.

Yes, so this has been happening periodically throughout the past four months, but in the past few days, like this week, it's been dramatically ramped up. Like right now, as we're recording this, ISIS is arresting people in the downtown San Diego court and also courts throughout the country. It's been reported everywhere, happening widely this week. And this is another thing the administration said they were going to do and is doing. I mean, you know, they're doing what they said they were going to do. And it's to use what's called 235 authority more broadly. So INA Section 235 applies to people who entered within less

than two years, like you said, and they can be then subject to what's called expedited removal. That means that they have to take a credible fear interview and be detained and that they only get to fight a case if they pass their credible fear interview and then they do not qualify for an immigration judge bond. So they only get out if ICE lets them out, which of course ICE is letting nobody out. So the administration wants to have people detained under this authority, this 235 authority as much as possible to have them have to fight their case detained and either lose the will to do so and or not be able to afford an attorney because detained cases move along a lot quicker and are very costly as well for that reason.

So what they're doing is anybody who was here two years or less but was paroled in, so they're in the regular immigration court proceedings, they got out, they're under 240 proceedings, that's called. So DHS attorneys in court are terminating those proceedings. They are asking the judge to terminate the 240 proceedings. So then that case is closed and then they immediately restart a case under section 235. And at the second they do that, the person is subject to mandatory detention and ICE is right there in the courthouse to arrest them and detain them. Jesus, yeah. I thought ICE couldn't arrest people in California. Is that California state courts, not federal courts, which are in California?

I believe so. And colleagues and I have been talking about this. I haven't researched it thoroughly, but I think also the nature of these proceedings, like the 235 proceeding, like you are mandatory detention, like you were taken into custody. It's as if you just crossed the border and, you know, are taken into custody. It's treated like that type of situation, like no warrant is necessary, I don't believe, you know. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. So they have very broad authority to detain people like anywhere. That makes sense. Exactly. So the real issue here is the ethical, I mean, a lot of us are grappling with this and,

of course, fiercely opposing these motions in that the justification that the DHS attorneys are attempting to use is that circumstances have materially changed since the issuance of their initial case that they're in now, which of course is not the case. Right. Like whose circumstances? Exactly. Exactly. Like the rise of fascism doesn't constitute a change circumstance. So it's just there's no basis for this motion. And secondly, the only basis, like there's zero justification for this other than filling detention centers, lining

core civic and geo groups pockets, and intentionally prejudicing an immigrant to have to fight their case detained. I mean, there's no good or legitimate justification for this period, the end, you know? Yeah. And fighting it detained will be a lot harder. They will be obviously in like terrible situation. They are, as we've covered before, often moved to a different state from their council. It will make it a lot harder for them if they choose to go that route.

I'm guessing that ICE is hoping that people won't fight and will just, or DHS is hoping that people will just choose not to fight. 100%. That's the whole point is this whole administration's, the messaging and their actions are all about forcing people, breaking people's spirits and forcing them into a situation where they feel their only option is to self-deport. Yeah, it is heartbreaking. It's very sick.

Yeah, it's very disturbing. It's very, very different from Trump 1.0. Yeah, I think that's worth sort of focusing in on that this is a completely distinct and much more radical disassembling of the asylum system as we know it. Absolutely. I mean, I think we can all agree or disagree as far as how we feel about the past four months and what has happened, but I think everybody can agree the pace at which it has happened is extremely concerning. Right. We are four months into four years and we have seen like a constitutional crisis,

like a full blown defiance of the courts. We, the day we're recording the Trump administration is attempting to deport people to South Sudan, many of whom, 11 of 12 of whom are not South Sudanese, right? I guess from what I understand, their attempt to giving those people a credible fear screening was that they didn't hear them shouting from the cells they were detained in that they were afraid of being tortured. Yeah, they're supposed to give them opportunity to be heard, essentially, and give notice of this third country that they're going to be deported to that nobody and no judge

has ever considered whether they have a fear or if they would be in danger or deported to this country. Right. So again, this is a due process situation where, hey, before you can be sent to some random country, especially South Sudan, maybe you should be given an opportunity to present why you have a fear or that something bad might happen to you over there to a judge.

And so this was recently ordered, I believe the case is called DVD versus DHS was what stopped the Libya situation from happening where, yeah, a judge said, this is exactly what needs to occur. These people need to be given real notice, not this whatever has been, you know, and an opportunity to be heard. And then, yeah, they immediately thereafter attempted to, as you said, or I think they did, I don't know if they actually accomplished it with South Sudan.

Yeah, my understanding is they are in a country which is neither the United States nor South Sudan on an aircraft at this time. And DHS is arguing that they can do their credible fear screenings there on the aircraft. I don't know how they plan to give those people privacy, translation, access to counsel. I just looked on court listener right before we recorded and Judge Murphy clarified Massachusetts District Court Judge that 10 days would be the amount of time that they would need to assert a credible fear. And then if DHS determined that they didn't have credible fear, they would then have 15 days to ask for the reopening of their case.

TBD is the United States going to somehow accommodate them in where they are. People are speculating they're in Djibouti, which is the largest US military base in the continent of Africa and close to South Sudan. And so if that's the case, yeah, I don't know how they will get due process. We will find out if they will get due process, I guess. Yeah, they probably won't, but we'll be told that they did. Or we'll be told that they were criminals in the first place, which is the other theme of this administration, right, with the Alien Enemies Act, which has basically been put on pause by a number of Satan judges who have said there's no invasion, there's no war, this is absurd, this just flat out doesn't apply. And I have to say that the immigration bar is very, I think, not just the immigration

bar, I think all of us are very frustrated that the Supreme Court has not yet come out with a definitive substantive ruling on this because for the people who don't know, the Alien Enemies Act allows the administration to circumvent the INA, which is the whole immigration court system and immediately deport supposed criminals who were invading the country. I mean, we all know this with the Venezuelans who were accused of being in Trenadera, just for having tattoos. And so that is, to me, and I think all of us, the biggest threat to just be able to put somebody on a plane to another country and in a prison in another country, as we've seen with CICOT and El Salvador. I mean, we need our Supreme Court to speak on this and we

need it quickly. Will Barron Yeah, like if we no longer have habeas, it's a frontal assault on the Bill of Rights, like most of them. Emma Cunningham And there's so many assaults on the Bill of Rights and then we need our Supreme Court to really to step up. And I think I'm not the only one who's extremely frustrated by that because we're in crisis. And as we've seen, it's fallen on courts and lawyers and judges to try to defend the semblance of democracy in this country. But the highest court in the land needs to help out soon. Yeah, yeah.

And like, this is where like the rubber meets the road, right? Like maintaining people's basic rights, dignity, and the right not to be sent to a labor camp in El Salvador or, you know, South Sudan, a country which is rapidly descending into conflict again. I thought the government was barrel bombing this week. Well, and just real quick, another note on the Supreme Court is that they're also concerning. I mean, as we know, there's a lot of Trump appointees there. Sure, yeah. they're also concerning me as we know there's a lot of Trump appointees there. And so, I mean, it's not even that that's the answer. It's just we're, you know,

but we need answers more quickly than what they're giving us. And it's just, given the rate that this administration is working at, I don't know that they will, if they ever get the case for the asylum ban at the border, would even overturn that because historically they've sort of supported his 212f powers. So I'm not saying that's the answer to everything, but it's definitely frustrating to not have basic things already decided like the use of the Alien Enemies Act. Yeah, like just not to know where we're at. Like, when people are trying in good faith to move forward with the legal processes, that they have spent their entire life savings on to get here and do the right, quote unquote, the right way. I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker.

Away Days is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Life from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing, resilient favela life and much more. All real, completely uncensored. This is Unique Access with straightforward on the ground reporting, we're taking you deep into the dirt without the usual airs and graces of legacy media. Awaiday showcases what the mainstream cannot access. Real underground reporting with real people, no excuses. For the past decade I've been going to places I shouldn't be meeting people I shouldn't know. Now you can come along too.

Listen to the Your Way Days podcast reporting from the underbelly on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1978, Roger Caron's first book was published and he was unlike any first time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 any first-time author Canada had ever seen. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted. I spent 24 of those years in jail. 12 years in solitary.

He went from an ex-con to a literary darling almost overnight. He was instantly a celebrity. He was an adrenaline junkie and he was the star of the show. Go-Boy is the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. I had a knife go in my stomach, puncture my skin, break my ribs. I had my guts all in my hands. Only to find himself back where he started. Roger's saying this, I've never hurt anybody but myself. And I said, oh, you're so wrong. You're so wrong on that one, Ron. From Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts, listen to GoBoy on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops call this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them.

From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Inc. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two, and three on May 21st and episodes four, five, and six on June

4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glod. And this is season two of the World on Drugs podcast. Yes sir, we are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives.

This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug band. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. We got B-Real from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette.

MMA fighter Liz Karamouche. What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcast. You're still fighting a number of asylum cases as we said before the call, like, you probably won't be forever, right? Like at some point, there's just not going to be any more asylum cases. I know that you're accepting donations, I think through Venmo on behalf of Primrose that we'll be sure to link to that Venmo account in the description of this show so people can donate if they'd like to. Now is the time to do it, right? It's not like this is going to be an ongoing thing. Like if people don't help now, then there won't be migrants to support or asylees to support later.

So like how can people materially support maybe in other ways, right? If they're like on hard times and they don't have the financial resources, what else can people do to, just to make this a little bit less cruel to some people who are among the most unfortunate people on the planet often. I think even mental and emotional support for the immigrants in your life,

I think is something that is underestimated because speaking as a very privileged white woman attorney, US citizen, this has taken a tremendous toll on me. And the mental toll that is taken on the actual undocumented community and the Siles, this messaging is so harmful and so disgusting that I think I would just caution people to not underestimate the power of human kindness to those already in your life. And just empowering them, distributing know your rights cards and information, that still matters. But also, I think the people who are, as we've been discussing, going to be at the most disadvantaged in terms of being

able to keep up morale are these people who are going to be mandatorily detained. So in terms of what we were talking about, I believe before we started recording, reaching out to any organizations. I know in San Diego there's detention resistance. Or even reaching out to the detention center that's near you to be able to determine how you can send a letter, how you can put money on somebody's books so that they can have phone calls with their family or phone calls with you even.

I think these types of things are key in light of the administration's clear messaging that immigrants are very much unwanted and criminals. So I think that's where I would come at this from. If you cannot donate, again, like we were talking, if you have a few dollars to spare, I mean, if everybody has a few dollars to spare, there is a finite number, like we were saying, of asylum cases left, like from roses.

So if people can spare a few dollars here or there, whenever they can, it does make the difference. Yeah, no, it does. And it shows that like, even if the government doesn't want you here, a lot of people want you to be protected. We want you to be safe. Like, yeah, the mental damage it does, I think it's hard to overstate. Like I was talking, I remember to a young woman in Bajo Chiquito, and like, she was the only surviving member of her family. The government had killed everyone. And so she came to the US, right, to be safe.

And like now the government is coming after her in addition to the trauma she already has from watching her entire family die. Like now the most powerful government in the world is coming after you. I can't imagine how that feels. That's a very good point. I mean, yeah, people are coming already traumatized only to be further traumatized by this administration and the system. And yes, I mean, emotional and mental and any kind of support is not to be underestimated in the slightest during these times.

Yeah, like have people over for dinner if you can, or yeah, like call the detention center and put money on someone's commissary. Just showing people that they're welcome is important. I know a lot of migrants, like if I look at my phone right now, in the time we've been recording, one of the migrants I met in the Darien Gat will probably have texted me, they're in Mexico, right? And they just want the world to know about the situation. They know they can't come to the US anymore. But sometimes people will say, I guess the Americans don't want us anymore. And like that breaks my heart because I think most people if they knew these people circumstances, right, like hundreds of people have reached out to me since the Darien Gap stuff to ask how they can help. And like,

most people do want those people to be their neighbors. And it breaks my heart that they think that we don't want them, that we would rather leave them to die wherever they're at. Like it's genuinely really horrible for me to think of that. So yeah, I would really encourage anyone listening if you can to do what you can. Absolutely. And just remembering that, again, these asylum cases are finite. So if you know any asylum seeker or can support any asylum seeker right now, they made it in. Let's give them their best shot.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like we can still help those people. And while we can, we should. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us.

We do appreciate it. I know that your time is very valuable and you're really busy right now. So we really appreciate your time. You're always welcome back. And if there's anything else you'd like to say before we finish up. Emma Yeah, thank you, James. I think the only thing I just want to emphasize is that, you know, from the standpoint of immigration attorneys, like I feel that we're obviously a subject of an executive order and you know, big law firms are being extorted by the administration to represent

causes that the administration believes in and not pro bono immigration work and so forth and so on. So it's not like too many of us have been personally attacked. Although, you know, judges have been arrested, even judges for just hiring an immigrant to do work around the house. So it is a scary time to be practicing immigration law, but unfortunately, I do see there being a time when it won't happen. I mean, I see the writing on the wall where I will not be able to continue mentally and or economically because a side effect of all this and a very intentional side effect is to make it so that we can't do much for people anymore and or they can't afford us or there's not people here to do anything for because their spirit was broken or their

finances and or all of the above and they had to leave. So it is a very intense time, but I came from different areas of life, only been in immigration seven years. And it's the first time I've thought of, okay, where am I going to go to next? Yeah, in these seven years. And it's a very real thing. So if you like I said, it feels very different than Trump 1.0. So, no, yeah, this is considerably more severe.

So in other words, take care of yourself if you are an ally, because you know, the attack is on immigrants and anybody who advocates supports and so forth. And it's a very targeted direct attack and it's very easy to get run down and consumed by it. And so definitely do what you need to do to take care of yourself. And if that means stepping back, then you know, I mean, I want to keep my foot in the door as much as possible these next four years on something immigration and asylum related, but there's also economic and other realities that are happening intentionally. So, yeah, definitely. And I think it is important for people to do whatever they need to do but there's also economic and other realities that are happening intentionally so.

Yeah, definitely. And I think it is important for people to do whatever they need to do to self-preserve and take care of themselves as well. I think that's a good place to end. Thank you so much for your time. And again, like if you're listening, please check the description of the show and we will have a link to Primrose's GoFundMe if you'd like to help. Thank you so much, James. Thank you. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, CoolZoneMedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. I'm Jake Hanrahan, journalist and documentary filmmaker. Away Days is my new project, reporting on countercultures on the fringes of society all across the world. Live from the underground, you'll discover no rules fighting, Japanese street racing,ilient Favela Life and much more. All real, completely uncensored. Listen to the Away Days podcast, Reporting from the Underbelly, on the iHeartRadio app,

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