It Could Happen Here - What's Wrong with Human Rights, Pt. 2

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Mick and James pick up their discussion of Human Rights where they left off yesterday and discuss how we can all ensure people are treated properly.  Sources: Human Rights as Moral Progress? A Critique by Jarett ZigonCULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGY, Vol. 28, Issue 4, pp. 716–736. ISSN 0886-7356, online ISSN 1548-1360. C 2013 by the American Anthropological Association. All rights reserved. DOI: 10.1111/cuan.12034 Agamben, Arendt and Human Rights: Bearing Witness to the Human. 2012John Lechte & Saul NewmanState of Exception. 2005Giorgio Agamben, translated by Kevin Attell The Need for Roots: Prelude to a Declaration of Duties Towards Mankind Simone Weil. Routledge Classics 2002 Philosophize This! - Episode #191: The Modern Day Concentration Camp and the Failure of Human Rights by Stephen WestSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Also, media. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to It Could Happen here. I am still Mick and I'm still with James. If for some reason you haven't listened to the first parts, I would strongly urge you to do that first

because we're going to dive straight in here and I'm afraid you're going to miss a lot of context and a lot of explanation as to what's going on. So yes, our next shin kick. King Badass is Giorgio Agamben. I mentioned him before. Some of you may have heard from him because around the COVID pandemic,

his work became incredibly popular all of the sudden. He follows a similar philosophical path that Hannah Arendt already laid out, but he goes like a few steps further. I'm sorry to say that we have once again some concepts to explore before we get to go deeper. Agamben strongly uses the concept of homo Cesar. It's a Latin term used during some time in the Roman Republic.

It means sacred man or a cursed man. It is a person who is banned from society, might be killed by anybody, but must not be sacrificed in a religious ritual. So Agamben sees this as someone who is exiled from society, and also not recognize as someone fits or worthy of being used in religious rituals. In fact, the Roman state has declared that this person is just a biological life form. That's in essence what this boils down to.

It upholds the sovereign power over this person because it is like the Roman state that could enforce this or retract it. But for all intents and purposes, like the homo-sacetre is like stripped of, humanity from political community essentially rightless. And this is also like a really weird position because you're still sort of subject to the state without the state wanting anything to do with you. Yeah. Almost like a very one-directional relationship. And Acombein, in turn, adapts this concept of the homo sacer into his state of exception.

In his work of the same name, he lays out how in times of emergency, usually this is what like the German philosopher Carl Schmidt often referred to but Agamben is taking it in a much cooler direction than Carl Schmidt ever did. In times of emergency where on a political level the decision is made to increase the legal power of the sovereign system. This increase can be an addition of new laws or the annulment of others. The question of how legal this is, this increase in power, is often a very, very gray area.

Like, martial law is a good example. Like, there is a real perceived or imaginary threats to the country or society, and thus whoever is in power invokes martial law, and suddenly all bets are off because they can't be restricted by law in order to deal with that situation. Yeah. Like many a dictator has, like, invoked martial law just so they could, like, crush down on everything.

Yeah. there are so many places where I could think of where there's been like a state of exception or a state of emergency for decades, right? I mean, to an extent since the United States passed the Patriot Act, or like, you know, in the United States we famously have the first 10 amendments because the Constitution, which are referred to as a Bill of Rights,

right, which enshrine many of the things that states are supposed to do to us unless you happen to be in the border enforcement zone or subject to some of these, like, sneak and peak warrants that the Patriot Act allows, right? Or other pieces of legislation as well, right? Like, there are many, many, many examples of this. Yeah, where Hannah Arend has, like, very distinct, like, the Zewa and the bios. And Arganbent sort of sees like an in-between area where, yeah, you become this homo-sacacer, where, like, you're not really the one, you're not really the other. And in that gray area, just anything can happen. Yeah. I think that, like, humans without

right concept is useful. Yeah, and they become so fluid in a bad way. Like, if I were to arrive at, like, LAX, if I make the wrong joke while I'm in the gray zone, then probably every one of my oral physicists will be searched for, like, drugs or other things. But once I step out of LAX, then, like, the LAPD can't do that to me. Right, without a whole different bureaucratic legal animal

that they'll have to deal with. Yeah, but, like, physically I just took three steps. right yeah yeah yeah or like if you think of the rights that the migrants and refugees have right like they can be in the same space as someone but have completely different rights think about how the rehingya people are in the camps in in Bangladesh for example like a Bangladeshi person could come there that they would have very different experiences of the state and their rights especially if they tried to walk out of there yeah together or like Palestinians living in in certain areas and the Palestinians will need to be able to identify themselves at each checkpoint

where they have to wait two hours. And an Israeli person will just walk through it and wave to the guards. Yeah, they're the exception so they can be treated differently. Yeah, you literally have roads that they can't go on, right? But yeah, a Palestinian and Israeli person is a good example, right? They could be holding hands, walking together and enter a checkpoint. From the moment they enter to the moment they left, they would have completely divergent experiences.

Exactly. And the whole different set of legal rights and legal protections. Yeah. Another example that I wrote down here was like the pandemics and the lockdowns. Because I know at least in the Netherlands when we had lockdowns, it was very unclear as to if it was constitutionally even allowed to do that. And if the crisis was severe enough to justify those measures on a legal level. Right. Yeah.

That was also a discussion here. Yes. Well, I'm not an expert on the US, so I can only use my own example here. At this point, this is where all the critiques sort of start to blend together. And this is where I hope it's going to make the most sense. As Simoneville already said, like, rights are conditional and require power to uphold them for you as a subject. What we run into now is this distinction between being human as a biological unit, or as a political one, because the latter has access to rights.

The former doesn't, and as a consequence, that person becomes this homo-sacer, in a sense, outside of society and the protections that that offers. You get all the downsides of being a subject, but none of the benefits. Like, the social contract sort of becomes revoked. Yeah. The tricky part is that our can also treat you differently based on, like, biological categories or political categories. Like prison labor is a very good example of this.

Under the 13th Amendment, slave labor was made illegal, except as a punishment. So as soon as power can give you a punishment, some of your rights just dissipate. Yeah. Like another one is healthcare. Like if you're a cis woman experiencing like a menopausal issues, it's relatively easy to get like hormone treatments. But if you're a trans woman, it suddenly becomes incredibly difficult or downright illegal to get those very same hormones. And that's also like this categorization in order to treat someone differently.

So what I think I'm trying to say is that our can also navigate in such a way that even if you are part of a political community, it can negate the rights and the human rights that should come with it by categorizing you differently. like this is agamance like massive fatigue because rather than you getting human rights and getting them respected by power it makes you dependent on power to recognize and honor it yeah in a way human rights become a liability instead of a protection because power the sovereign the state can still decide whether or not to recognize you as like biological or political Canadian women are looking for more. More out of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark.

And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast and IHart Radio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. So one of the most tangible and powerful examples of this not being recognized comes from our good friend, James, President Gregory Wookie Bush and his seaside resort in Guantanamo Bay. I think I had that to correct. Under international law, you're still entitled to have certain human rights when you are detained as a prisoner of war. I'll be citing a little bit from the third Geneva Convention in which this was ratified.

the status of POWs only applies in international armed conflict POWs are usually members of armed forces or of one of the parties to a conflict who fall into the hands of the opposing party. The Third Geneva Convention also classifies other categories of people who have the right to POW status or may be treated as such. POWs must be treated humanely in all circumstances. They are protected against any act of violence

as well as against intimidation, insults, and public curiosity. International humanitarian law also defines the minimum acceptable conditions of detention, covering such issues as accommodation, foods, clothing, hygiene, and medical care. You know where this is going, because Greg Waterwalker Bush circumvented this all by proclaiming that certain people were not prisoners of war, but rather enemy combatants. and as such, not subject to the protections of the Geneva Convention. It's a bait and switch that is as smart as it is like diabolical because power simply switches around the political community that applies to you.

And suddenly they can do whatever they want to you because you're just the biological unit. Yeah. Like it's a linguistic switcheroo. Yeah. And it shows how our rights are perceived in the US law to come from the state as a guarantor of them, right? Because these people were quote-unquote terrorists and they weren't fighting on behalf of a state, therefore obligations to them and to the state that we're at war with don't exist. And so they, therefore, they don't have rights because there is not a state

to say, hey, you're violating them, even though many, many Americans, including in many, many court cases, said, hey, you're violating their rights. And even when they were citizens of other country. It's like British people in Guantanamo Bay. Yeah, from all over the world. Yeah. Also, I think that DeNepra has been a single conviction because of whatever the fuck happens in Guantanamo Bay. Yeah, they have their own special court. I didn't know if they've convicted people there, but they definitely have a court there. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know about the convictions, but I remember teaching a sociology course and getting into Guantanamo Bay quite a lot, but that was some time ago. I've had students who were, who served at Guantanamo Bay. Oh, fuck. And I think it's, fair to say that like that the psychological damage that does to everybody involved should not be

underestimated like it's it goes back to your idea of like we have an inherent gut feeling of right and wrong and participating in something that you know to be wrong isn't good for you it's not it's not the same as being tortured and waterboarded but knowing that you are in a place to be clear I don't know anyone who has participated in any of that like uh enhanced interiors irrigation bullshit, but just being a fucking cook in a place where that happens is still damaging, I'm sure, to you and your

sense of being a person who believes in their obligation to others. Yeah, like, I would not trust anyone who wouldn't be affected by that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, that person who is not affected by that is like either a psychopath or like that inside.

Yeah, I'm not going to be nuanced about that. But like, this is like the core of like the entire critique against human rights because it is simply the state decides that you're not part of a political community or just cuts you off from it and suddenly we can play like Hotel California

24 7 and drive you insane or lack of sleep too hot or too cold. It's so weird to have something that we are taught is like unalienable is actually just like the premium option but you can't buy it like there is a power that has to say

oh no, this person has the premium package and you get to have human rights. Yeah. Like, it is this right to have rights, as Aaron said, that makes it really weird because you're still dependent and unless recognized you're still just an animal existing out there. Yeah. So, and this is why I thought it would be a good idea to have this discussion

because I think we can look at every much any continent at the moment and see things like, oh, you can see this pattern everywhere. Yeah, it's very relevant to the United States right now, right? Because like we got, you know, largely the Department of Homeland Security going out there and doing stuff, which is violative of people's rights, both in U.S. and international law terms. And like, there's been a response, right, by certain groups of people. And I understand, right? If you have spent your whole life seeing, like, rights as guaranteed by the state and the state is a benevolent actor, that it's hard to make that mind switch. I do understand that. But like, it actually doesn't matter. And this is very hard for some people to grasp judging by my replies on B.C. guy. App, yeah, that's actually illegal. It doesn't matter, right? Like, people just being like, oh, they can't do that while they're doing it. It doesn't matter that they're violating, like, half the Bill of Rights in a two-minute period. They're still doing it. There is no accountability because the state doesn't hold itself accountable. So, like, when we need to think of a framework where, like, our assumptions can line up with reality. You come back to obligations,

because, like, what do you think is right and wrong to happen to people? Yeah, we'd meet that a lot with outdoor detention, actually, like, when we were feeding people. Like, you'd be like, hey, just trying to get help from folks, you know. Like, trying to be like, hey, you know, I'm trying to feed these folks and help us out, give us whatever, like people will be asking friends in their community. And then folks would be like, well, they can't do that. They have the right to her, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you'd be like, cool, do you want to come tell them?

we'll see how it goes, I guess. But they are doing it, and we have an obligation to take care of them. And I think people have become very comfortable outsourcing their obligation to the state without realizing that, therefore, they no longer get to decide who gets right to when, when you do that.

Yeah, I think it's important to highlight this little switcher room, if you think of the Palestine protests, like they can't out. right-band protests because then you're very much violating the constitution. Right, yeah. But if you say like, oh, no, but this is not because they're protesting. This is because it's anti-Semitic.

And we need to protect these other people. Yeah, like the acts that are happening on the ground have not really changed, but the way you can approach this from a legal and a political level, become a whole different ballgame. And I think that that doesn't pertain to human rights as much as like the example you mentioned. but it is again this date and switch that keeps happening. Yeah. And I'm sure everyone listening can think of times or examples of that.

And it is not great. Yeah, it's not great. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart. And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspired.

hiring women, entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast and IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Yeah, that is all I have. Unfortunately, I don't have any advice or anything. I don't know how to deal with this for you as the listener. Yeah. It doesn't help to tell if a cop, they're violating your human rights.

they won't listen. Yeah, I think it could be easy for people to assume that this is a hopeless thing, right? Like because the rights only matter when the state decides they matter, that therefore they don't matter. But like, it can also be a hopeful thing because maybe if we look at the example, I wrote back to my book, right, of the Yazidis when they were in Schengal and they were on their mountain, right? And the Islamic State, I think it was ISIS at that time.

I'm not sure if it had declared itself the Islamic State yet, was surrounding them. and very much coming to violate every single concept of rights and decency that one can imagine for a human being, right? And I remember interviewing a Yepege commander about this in Rojava and him saying, obviously, I'm translating here as an un-direct quotation, but we were very disappointed in the states of the world at that moment. And so we decided to go ourselves. And like it was a very small number, right? Different accounts have had different numbers of, I think entirely Kurdish. We can debate

if Azidi people are Kurdish or not but it's not the place for that, is it? No. People from the YPG who went to the mountain and eventually built a corridor with their blood, with their bodies, right, to allow those people

to come to Rojava. Now, unfortunately, those people, this is a very good example now, I think, about it actually, right? So those people acted as guarantors of someone else's rights by fulfilling their obligation. Now, if we look at it, at where the Azidi people are in some part, not every single Azidi person, but many

Azadi people are still in refugee camps in Iraq, right? The conditions that they are in, we hear a lot about how bad conditions are for the people in the Islamic State prisons or we do not hear as much about how bad conditions are for the Yazidi people, but they are bad, right? They have a right to a much better life. The states of the world are not fulfilling that right. They are not fulfilling their obligation to these people who did nothing other than live the way they've lived for thousands of years and because that way was considered to be heretical by the Islamic State

they were targeted for genocide, right? And would have been killed in much greater numbers were it not for those people who are willing to fulfill their obligation to go and defend them and then the states of the world have let them down again and so, you know, try to try to find a future for themselves. So like it's... We're very good at that.

Yeah, yeah, this is the thing that we do. I may have a hopeful example. Nice. I told you, Japs, that I have. a random person living in my house. And, well, for you, the listeners, like through the community, it became known to us that there was someone

who had fled an unsafe home situation. Legal adults, but I'm not entirely sure how much it should say, but it sounded very serious, and we took it very seriously. And I had a spare room at that time. I did not know this person. I only have a first name.

I never learned a second name or anything. never asked for an ID. I thought to myself, the world I want to live in is one where someone can feel safe in situations like that. So despite me being

a pretty introverted person, I was like, okay, come live here because you need some place to get back on your feet. You need somewhere to be safe. And that is a way in which you can uphold your obligations to other people. Also with like the safety, security without persistent fear, a roof over their heads,

even just a place to cool down a bit and figure things out. And it would wreck my own political convictions to be able to help in such a situation and not do it because I find it a little uncomfortable to have a stranger living in my house. Also for the record, nothing was stolen, nothing weird or bad happened. Yeah, this person just lived here for a week and moved on. but that is a way in which you can also in any small way like fulfill your obligation

to other people and to live in accordance with like your own convictions and your own moral and ideological compass. Yeah, I think that's a great example of how you can act according to your obligation, right?

Yeah, and we can all do that in different ways, right? Different senses. And like this one thing like, I liked what you said a lot that like if the world you want to live in is one where that person can feel safe. And like, we only do that by building it ourselves. My perception of politics is that, like, we are wasting our time asking the

state to build that world for us. And instead, we can build it, like, piece by piece along the way. And I know people, like, perceive anarchism to be, like, like, chaotic and violent, but, like, most of the time when you're doing anarchism, you're making someone food or giving someone a blanket, it like a very nice, pleasant things to be doing. It makes me feel better that we can make a world where that happens through our individual actions. Yeah. Very nice David Graber metaphor there for the digging a well.

Yeah. So like Mia likes to say, like put a trans girl on your couch. That's also protecting human rights. Yes. Yeah. I'm sorry. I just thought of it. But yeah, put someone on your couch who is in dire deed of a sense.

safe place. Yeah. But be also safe yourself, clearly. I think that's all we have, James. This was depressing and then uplifting enough. Yeah, that's what we do here. Okay. Yeah. Well, take care everyone and until next time. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, Coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.