It Could Happen Here - Why Is ICE Relocating Migrants Away From Their Lawyers?

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

James talks to immigration attorney Kirsten Zittlau about ICE’s recent transfer of asylum seekers from detention in California to Texas, Biden’s recent executive order, and how to participate in mutual aid to help migrants. Please support The Sidewalk School here: https://gofund.me/06cd0c76See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That's iHeart.com slash podcast awards. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy, Elian Gonzalez, was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home, and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami? Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the

Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T. Connecting changes everything. CallZone Media. changes everything. ice transferring people in their detention and generally the sort of post-arrival process that migrants asylum seekers specifically face when they come to the United States. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. So I think to start out with people when I speak to them like in my day-to-day life are very unaware of the situations that migrants face when it comes to obtaining legal representation right so maybe we could start off by just explaining like this isn't like if you're accused of a crime right in theory it's a civil proceeding but also they'll lock you up but you don't get a public

defender assigned to you right so can you explain someone let's say someone comes through the hole in the fence in hakumba right they get detained at the oeds we give them a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and then they get taken out, processed. What happens after that? So from when they come to street release, in terms of their legal representation, how does it work? Yes, so I'll address the street release folks, as well as the people who are then taken to ICE detention.

Yes, yeah. Yeah, so I'll start with the street release folks. So they, well, first, anybody who irregularly enters the United States not at a port of entry is subject to detention, not just by border patrol, but by ICE. their awful situation is that there's so many people coming that there's not enough detention space to detain everybody. And so hence the street releases so that people can then go directly to their family. They will go with a notice to appear, which starts their immigration court proceedings, which was issued by border patrol. So immediately they have to navigate the immigration court system, starting with the fact that the notice to appear might have a false date on it, as far as their court date. So that's the first. Yeah, it's the first issue.

So what does that mean when you say a false date, like if they show up on that date, the hearing won't be happening. So there's been a trend over the years to put to be decided as a hearing date on their notice to appear, which is the first document that says, hey, you're you're now being put in immigration court proceedings, we'll send you a later notice to your address that you gave us of when you're actually going to have that hearing, or rather the court will. So the immigration lawyer bar pushed real hard on this issue and said, no, this is BS.

You need to put a date and time. The reason they weren't is because they didn't want to take the time to coordinate with the courts to make sure that there's actually a judge on that date and time that they assign. So to satisfy the legal requirements that we've pushed for, they often will just put a fake date and time. So in other words, they haven't done anything to verify whether there's actually a judge sitting at some court that day or time to hear their case. Yeah, they're just making it up. So this is exactly, so this is of course incredibly confusing and very dangerous because they

basically need an attorney immediately to explain this concept to them because they first of all won't know how to look for when their actual court date is which is a link that I don't think border patrol ever gives them and then if they miss their actual court date then they will of course be ordered deported and um they get you know then ICE is after And really, they have no other options at that point. So really, the need for an attorney arises immediately. And often immigrants have been robbed, they've paid all their money to transnational immigration, criminal organizations, excuse me. So and an asylum case is costly. So they have a right to an attorney, as you said, but only at their own expense. So this is a tremendous challenge off the bat, as you can imagine. Yeah. And then just to further sort of go down that pathway,

the attorney is paid for their own expense, but without an attorney, they may not be able to obtain a work permit, right? So. A hundred percent. I mean, navigating the process on your own is, as an immigrant, it just, it seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there the process on your own as an immigrant, it just seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there's so much that even us as attorneys struggle with that it is, and it's evolving all the time. So even if you manage to submit your asylum application by yourself, the process, and then later submitting the work permit form and knowing where to send it and how to navigate USCIS. That's, I mean, like I said, it's difficult for us. I mean, let's just say I got a work permit with somebody else's photo on it the other day. So, you know, so it's a total mess. And to have an immigrant even navigate that process is, it just seems impossible.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've not applied for asylum, but when I renewed my green card, I did that myself. And English is my first language. I have a PhD. asylum, but when I renewed my green card, I did that myself. English is my first language. I have a PhD. I'm used to paperwork. And it was both scary and complicated. Exactly. And when your whole future is resting on it, it's extremely anxiety-inducing.

By design, too. I mean, they haven't updated forms to become a resident since, I mean, like the 30s or something. Yeah, to ask you're a member of the Communist Party. Exactly, exactly. And it's all just to make it as difficult as possible and the wait times and everything else. Yeah. So how about the folks who go into ICE detention?

So these are typically people, well, I mean, that's just the thing. These days, there aren't the typical people who go into ICE detention. It's kind of, it seems to me that certainly there's people who are mandatory detention, where if they have a prior deportation right now in detention. And if they were white, I'm absolutely convinced they are not even white, but Latino, they would have been released already. So and one of them is a black Muslim man from Kenya. And he's been called a suspected terrorist by ICE for six months or more that he's been in detention with zero proof whatsoever. And so they'll just hold them for that reason, because he's a black Muslim man. So these are often people with very meritorious cases. Like, for example, this man was an opposition party leader and recruiter back in Kenya.

So these people just need, I mean, whether they win or not win their case or not can hinge on just being able to get representation, you know, because he's very intelligent and probably would have been able to put together a good case on his behalf. But the stats about people winning cases detained without attorneys is very, very low. So yeah, so then they have to work with a family member on the outside, obviously, to get a hold of an attorney. Not a lot of attorneys or all attorneys do detained work because it is so difficult to start with. I mean, access to your client is just so limited and getting evidence. I mean, they have to have a reliable family support network on the outside, essentially, to help them get evidence from their home country. I mean, how else do you do that detained? And so it's a lot of work coordinating as an attorney and so forth. and so forth. So San Diego County saw that need and actually started a great program. I'm not exactly sure when it started, but apparently they weren't getting enough applicants and maybe it's been around for a little bit, but they didn't know about it. And they set aside like $5 million to specifically pay attorneys to represent people detained in Otay Mesa,

which is of course the big ICE detention center in San Diego. So that caused there to be more attorneys, you know, or slightly more represented people at Otay Mesa, which was great. Because typically when I go in there, you know, this is just anecdotal evidence, you'll see a handful of attorneys, maybe a couple, maybe at most like five. And then you see all the detainees, the immigrants sitting there, and there's clearly more than there are attorneys. So, you know, I read a stat by the ACLU that it's like something like 70% as of 2021 did not have attorneys in detention centers. Right, so they just won't be represented

throughout that process. Exactly. And certainly, like, God forbid, you're a Muslim. If you're a black Muslim man, you're like at the intersection of things that are going to have you sent straight to jail. Exactly. Just to briefly explain for people who aren't familiar, when we talk about ICE detention, what are we talking about?

Like what are the conditions and who is often operating these detention centers? Excellent point. So these are for-profit detention centers. So it is operated by ICE in conjunction with two large companies called CoreCivic or GeoGroup. And if you're not familiar with these companies, Google them and you will immediately be horrified. Yeah, so it's a horrifying state of affairs. Essentially, one of the biggest things, and one can Google this right now, is the wrongful death suits and payouts. one can google this right now is the wrongful death suits and payouts so literally the business model is to allow people to die detained as a cost of business rather than give them proper

medical care or take them to the hospital and so forth and they will pay out and they do pay out millions to families and i've seen this in action not not that any of my clients died but just the the gravity to which the health situation has to be in order to have a prayer of getting them out yeah it's um it's very sad like i think one thing that i come back to now like four years ish into a biden administration is that like on one of his first executive orders was he's going to end for-profit prisons and he never did shit about the ICE detention like right from the outset there was like these people do not have the same right to the people and we don't care about them as much exactly exactly and at this part well and at this point too it's like given that he's done a 180 on anything that was pro-immigrant or that he said he was going to do at the beginning you kind of start to wonder is he just being paid off by the same people by a

geogrupper core civic you know they they contribute millions of dollars to whoever's running for president for good reason so it makes you wonder from that aspect as well yeah like it certainly it was in his immigration reform bill right to increase the amount of of ice detention facility beds or cells or whatever however you want to put that hopefully this advert that we're about to pivot to here is not for core civic or geo group but if it is fuck them amen hey i'm jack these thomas the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks

while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories of the brilliant writers behind them.

Blacklit is here to amplify the voices of Black writers and to bring their words to life. Listen to Blacklit on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again,

the podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars, from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with cheese man laughs

and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again,

a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zitron,

host of the Better Offline podcast, and we're kicking off our second season digging into how Tex Elite has turned Silicon Valley into a playground for billionaires. From the chaotic world of generative AI to the destruction of Google search, better offline is your unvarnished and at times unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry

veteran with nothing to lose. This season I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong though, I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to god things can change if we're loud enough so join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com.

On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian. Elian.

Elian. Elian. Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzales wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story,

as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Parenti. And I'm Jimei Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, the early career podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. One of the most exciting things about having your first real job is that first real paycheck. You're probably thinking, yay, I can finally buy a new phone.

But you also have a lot of questions like, how should I be investing this money? I mean, how much do I save? And what about my 401k? Well, we're talking with finance expert Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it all down. I always get roasted on the internet when I say this out loud, but I'm like, every single year you need to be asking for a raise of somewhere between 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're going to get 15% every single year, but if you ask for 10 to 15 and you end up getting eight, that is actually a true raise. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we are back and we're going to talk about this process of ice relocating detainees. So this is something that you've actually done an interview about recently, right? There was a piece written about it. Yes, yes. I did two interviews about it just because it's an issue very close to my heart for several reasons. Detained work is very, very difficult. And just the fact that few few attorneys do it i mean more have now in light of the county program but still it's it's very emotionally draining to uh you see

you literally see the decline of the person in front of your eyes both mentally and physically and it's just it's it takes a lot out of you. So these people need and deserve representation. And like I said, are often detained unjustly and have strong cases that they could actually win. So basically, these people deserve representation and need it the most. I mean, they're basically the most marginalized out of any immigrant there is. So for ICE to suddenly start transferring, mass transferring, I might add, represented detainees when they never have in the past and they haven't their own memo from 2012 that says they shouldn't do this,

except for exigent circumstances, and they describe it as some medical issue or something severe that requires it. It's pretty obvious that this is just direct retaliation or just designed to get attorneys out of Otay because there's been more of them in there, and we tend to make a stink, and we tend to ask, hey, why haven't you given a decision on my client's request to be released,

and what's going on here? And we tend to send a lot of emails advocating for our clients and we tend to be pains in the asses. And before this happened, I noticed that ICE was just not responding at all. Whereas I had some relationship with the ICE agents that are at the detention center. Just to back up, every client is assigned to a deportation officer. So you technically have somebody from ICE to communicate with, and they're supposed to be in charge of the person detained, whether they're released or whether the treatment,

and they're their point of contact. And so even under the Trump years, you'd be able to, yeah, you might have to follow up, but you'd be able to communicate with a couple of them, or some of them would do. And so I noticed in the past year or two that this is it's just been kind of the scorched earth approach where they just won't get back to you. Or, yeah, and and they're also not responding to requests to have people released for just months and months and months, despite attorneys asking. and months, despite attorneys asking. And so it doesn't surprise me that the timing of this and that they would do this now that I'm reflecting back on this as well as the county program.

There's more attorneys at Otay Mesa now. And so, I mean, essentially what happens is if the person is transferred, which they've all been transferred to places like, I think Colorado is probably the best option, but generally like Louisiana, Mississippi, things like that. Texas is where my clients are currently. So these are places where you can imagine there's A, not a lot of quality immigration attorneys and B, not a high chance of winning your case given the nature of the judges that are there. Yeah. I've heard migrants articulate to me that they would not want to be in the Fifth Circuit. Exactly. Come here in the Ninth Circuit. Exactly. They're getting sent right back to the Fifth Circuit there. Exactly. And that's where my clients are now. And one judge

from Otay decided, who scolded me for suggesting that this was even by design, he told me to act more professional. He didn't say anything to the dhs attorney about what his client was doing but told me to act more professional changed venue for that client i was talking about the kenyan client and so we're now in el paso and thank god he has a strong case but even then i wonder because that's it's i mean if it's well known amongst migrants you can imagine how bad it is yeah totally if it's reached someone who knows nothing of the u.s like yes i mean so it's just it's ludicrous that you have you know people pretending like judges you know just like this had to happen when you have you know 70 percent of people you know at least that's slightly dated but still i don't think the percentage is that

even if it's 50 why, why not unrepresented people? So to do this, it's just a very obvious like, fuck you. I mean, it's just there's no other way to. To justify it. Yeah. And like when that happens, right. So you have this this gentleman from Kenya who's been who's been transferred to Texas that then you then have to travel to Texas, right, for his hearings to meet with him. Yeah, so that's the whole big battle.

And I have two different clients with two different experiences. So he, I will either have to appear via Webex from my home, but then the judge now has two people remotely because my client's not in El Paso either. He's detained in Anson, Texas, which is a blip about three hours away from Dallas or something. So they, and this is also by design, right? They put all these detention centers in the middle of nowhere because God forbid the public sees that people seeking asylum are in prisons. So anyways, so both of us are going to be remote if that's the case. So I mean, I think there needs to be

some personal contact. And maybe if I can have some communication with the DHS council, I have to go to El Paso to give my client the best chance of something. Otherwise, we're both faces on this video with a Fifth Circuit judge. So the other flip side of the coin was that I have another client who was transferred and his trial is literally around the corner. It's next week. So yeah, he was transferred four weeks before his individual hearing.

So I filed something scathing saying, judge, please don't consider changing venue. This is, you know, he's been detained long enough. He's a 21 year old, by the way. I mean, so DHS sheepishly filed something. you know yeah he's been detained long enough he's a 21 year old by the way i mean so um dhs sheepishly filed something so counsel for ice filed something saying okay well we're asked we agree to that we just asked that he could appear via webex from anson texas also right so now he's going to be a face on a screen but i can be at o-type but still i mean these are all

significant disadvantages i mean judges are evaluating immigrants to see whether or not in their mind they're, quote, credible. That means do they think they're lying or not? That's very hard to do on a video because you're looking for body language. You're looking for subtle things, you know. And also it's just like the human aspect of it is very important. You know, it's easier to deny asylum to somebody on a screen than it is somebody sitting in front of you. You know, there's so many, there's so many small aspects. And so ICE claims like, oh, well, we'll, you just, you can communicate just fine. You know, you can, we'll offer you calls and even video calls. And I'm like, okay, you don't understand anything about being an attorney and what it means to, to, to actually represent clients. At the, the person's final court hearing,

they are asked to swear to the contents of not only their asylum application, but also all evidence they filed. And so if, how on earth can you show them and sit with them to show them the evidence in person, you know, that you can only do in person. So it's just this whole concept that you can even adequately lawyer

remotely or over the phone. It the phone, it's not possible. Yeah. And especially for people who are less, you know, like I spent less time on Zoom than we have in the past four years, right? Exactly. And a lot of these people are traumatized, you know, and are like as as an attorney you need to build rapport with them and you do that by meeting with them in person otherwise they might not share vital information with you you know and and honestly the family of the 21 year old mainly hired me to be with him during his final hearing and so now i can't even do that you know just to just to try to calm

and and you know these people are petrified they've been through so much and now they have to talk about all of it in front of this american judge in a robe and from a prison yeah and i have to be their only ally is not even with them yeah and like there's understandably in a lot of countries saying something on a phone or on a call might be a risk right a hundred percent you know it takes a i'm on a call might be a risk, right? A hundred percent. You know, it takes a, I'm not saying it's not a risk doing it in this country, but like, yeah, all of these things stack up against them. I spend most of my time telling my clients like,

what we discuss on the phone is attorney-client privilege. Like nobody could use this even if they try. And it doesn't calm them down because it's just, they think they're being recorded probably from their experiences and in their home countries and frankly i don't even know if we're being recorded i just know that it can't be you are it can't be used you know i mean so yeah there's so many things that go into representing somebody who's detained and ice knows all of this full well so this is a very deliberate choice and it's something we haven't seen before, like ever. I mean, everybody's pretty shocked by this.

Yeah. When did it begin? I want to say a couple months ago, but this mass transfer they did that sparked us to talk to the press and so forth was over Memorial Day weekend. So they like to do that too, I've noticed over holiday weekends, because last year they were trying to deport a couple of my clients, even though they had things pending and they try to do it over the weekend. And so on purpose, right? And so the client's families would call and be like, Hey, he's being printed, like processed for being deported. And so we immediately, yeah, I had to do this twice a year ago. So I had to send two emails basically documenting and ceasing the ICE attorney being like, hi, they have a pending XYZ case. It is unlawful to deport. Stop what you're doing immediately. But like, had we not been notified over the weekend and sent that email, they would have been deported despite having a kid. So this is the type of stuff that regularly happens, but it's very ballsy to me to transfer.

Like, I think it was probably like a hundred people or hundreds or something, you know, I mean, over Memorial day weekend, you know, and of course, Oh,

their memo, by the way, also says they're supposed to notify the attorneys, you know? I mean, I heard from frantic family members who are like, why the fuck am I getting a call from Anson, Texas?

Oh, Oh, and this is rich. You'll appreciate this. It wasn't even one transfer. They first went to Eden, Texas, which is another lovely place in Texas. And then a week later, we're moved to this place called Blue Bonnet because they have to give them pretty names, right? Detention facility at Anson. Yeah.

And so I had arranged a legal call at the first detention facility and then had to like do it all, do this process all over again. And they ask you for everything, but like your DNA in order to prove that you're their attorney, you know, to get this legal call. I mean, I spent two weeks just trying to figure out where my client was. And these are two, imagine, this has sucked up like all my time since Memorial Day. I mean, there's other clients, you know, I've been struggling to get to their cases. Like, thankfully, I haven't had too many deadlines. But I mean, it's been brutal.

Yeah, that sucks. Talking of brutal, unfortunately, we have the brutal obligation to transfer to ads for a second time. So we're going to do that. And then we're going to come back. Hey, I'm Jack Peace Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. I'm Jack Peace Thomas, and I'm inviting you to join me and a vibrant community of literary enthusiasts dedicated to protecting and celebrating our stories. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while commuting or running errands, for those who find themselves seeking solace, wisdom, and refuge between the chapters. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our

culture. Together, we'll dissect classics and contemporary works while uncovering the stories Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. unhinged look at the underbelly of tech from an industry veteran with nothing to lose. This season, I'm going to be joined by everyone from Nobel-winning economists to leading journalists in the field, and I'll be digging into why the products you love keep getting worse and naming and shaming those responsible. Don't get me wrong, though. I love technology. I just hate the people in charge and want them to get back to building things that actually do things to help real people. I swear to God things can change if we're loud enough. So join me every week to understand what's happening in the tech industry and what could be done to make things better. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

wherever else you get your podcasts. Check out betteroffline.com. Hola mi gente, it's Honey German and I'm bringing you Gracias, Come Again. The podcast where we dive deep into the world of Latin culture, musica, peliculas, and entertainment with some of the biggest names in the game. If you love hearing real conversations with your favorite Latin celebrities, artists, and culture shifters, this is the podcast for you. We're talking real conversations with our Latin stars,

from actors and artists to musicians and creators, sharing their stories, struggles, and successes. You know it's going to be filled with chisme laughs and all the vibes that you love. Each week, we'll explore everything from music and pop culture to deeper topics like identity, community, and breaking down barriers in all sorts of industries. Don't miss out on the fun, el té caliente, and life stories. Join me for Gracias Come Again, a podcast by Honey German, where we get into todo lo actual y viral. Listen to Gracias Come Again on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, a five-year-old boy floated alone in the ocean. He had lost his mother, trying to reach Florida from Cuba. He looked like a little angel. I mean, he looked so fresh. And his name, Elian Gonzalez, will make headlines everywhere. Elian Gonzalez. Elian Gonzalez. Elian. Elian.

Elian Gonzalez. At the heart of the story is a young boy and the question of who he belongs with. His father in Cuba. Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom. At the heart of it all is still this painful family separation. Something that as a Cuban, I know all too well.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Parente. And I'm Jimei Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, Hey, I'm Gianna Prandenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline,

the early career podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. One of the most exciting things about having your first real job is that first real paycheck. You're probably thinking, yay, I can finally buy a new phone. But you also have a lot of questions like, how should I be investing this money? I mean, how much do I save? And what about my 401k? Well, we're talking with finance expert Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF, to break it all down. I always get roasted on the internet when I say this out loud, but I'm like,

every single year you need to be asking for a raise of somewhere between 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're going to get 15% every single year, but if you ask for 10 to 15%. I'm not saying you're going to get 15% every single year, but if you ask for 10 to 15 and you end up getting eight, that is actually a true raise. Listen to this week's episode of Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back. So we've heard about how ice are transferring people across to different different parts of the united states what i wanted to talk about now was another recent development which was joe biden's executive order not the very recent one on parole in place people have seen that but this one uh quote unquote closing the border

can you explain we haven't really seen that impact on the ground yet but can you explain these people are supposed to get a essentially a document forbidding them from re-entering for five years correct and um it's not just any document it's yes the worst document. So it is an expedited removalenter during that time period, or even at any time irregularly, you will then be put in what's called withholding-only proceedings. And that essentially means you are no longer eligible for anything, not even asylum, just a very, very difficult form of asylum, which is called withholding or protection under the Convention Against Torture, which is also very difficult to win. So those are the two things you're stuck fighting and then you are also mandatory detention. So there's no possibility of you getting out unless you win your case

which is of course very, very difficult. So I haven't seen this play out. Like we're saying, it's relatively new. It's very fresh. Yeah, but I can imagine based on my experience and based on what all of us know that people aren't going to have any idea what this is. And they're going to and plus there's desperation and other.

I mean, they just came to the dairy and they're not going to let a piece of paper stop them. You know, so I mean, so these people are probably going to turn around and try again and end up being in this withholding only posture, which means they're now really screwed in terms of having a way difficult time winning any sort of relief and definitely detained. Like they will not be released. I've had clients on occasion, like every blue moon be released, but the way ICE is acting these days, I don't think it'll happen. So one of the thoughts I had is, is this justifying additional detention centers? is this justifying additional detention centers. If we're now going to have probably more of those types of people. But just in general, I don't see there being a shortage of people they can detain.

So I think... Yeah, no, I think they... Yeah. I don't think that we have an option in November to vote for a person who isn't going to build more prisons for refugees. 100%. 100%. which is which is why and i think that's something very you know it can be you can take it and be like okay i'm so depressed you know blah blah there's nobody to vote for like you know because basically biden has

done you know gravitated so far to the right i call all the stuff that they waived it out in 2020 so trump will do this biden has done exactly right and so i don't even know that Trump-lite, but I don't even know if he's Trump-lite anymore. He's like more like Trump-medium or almost there, you know. Trump with less racist speeches. Exactly, Trump minus the racist speeches. Exactly. So it's just, I mean, so the way to look at this is that like literally we are their only hope. I mean, the government here is not only like not only gonna

not save them from anything they're in creating all these situations putting them in more peril so it really behooves us to find all the different grassroots organizations and there's there's so many of them that that we can help and donate and volunteer our time to because that's literally all these people have yeah so let's talk about that time to because that's literally all these people have. Yeah. So let's talk about that a bit because that's something both you and I do is we participate in water drops, in migrant aid of various kinds, welcome stations are the thing we've been doing recently. You know, you and I were out a while ago now, time just kind of collapses on itself. But we were out in a place near the border. We were there when we met the two Mauritanian dudes

who carried the Chinese. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it was so beautiful, right? Yeah, it was such a wonderful, like obviously it's pretty bleak that this guy's unable to use one of his legs properly and therefore two people

who don't share a single word with him had to carry him. These two Mauritanian men we met, I'll just rewind to tell the whole story. Yeah. We were driving down the road and we kept meeting groups of Mauritanian refugees coming north. And we were able to help them by giving them water.

Quick interruption, by the way. I looked up Mauritanian and unsurprisingly, they have female genital mutilation, child labor. And basically any like it's just horrific. Capital punishment. Yeah. Gay people. Right. Exactly.

So these people, very, very nice, just wanted mostly a bottle of water and how far until we can surrender to border patrol, which is what they intend to do. And they kept saying, there's a guy with a broken leg. And we were like, oh shit. But that's potentially fatal in this place that we're at.

They just keep saying, go down the road, you'll see him. So we keep going down the road and we come around the corner and there's two guys sort of each and then the third guy in the middle of them with like his hands over both their shoulders right and they're sort of humping him down the road and it turns out that this chinese man only speaking mandarin had he had like a brace or like a like an external fixation on his leg like like bolts through his leg, and couldn't walk. And these dudes had been carrying him for two days,

and they couldn't speak the same language. Like they weren't able to communicate. And it was, yeah, the most humane thing, and it made me just so ashamed. Like these people in a time of desperation for themselves have taken the risk to help other people. And then here's our government just being like screw you if you don't belong here we're going to put you straight in prison or especially these these are mostly muslim african men from mauritania right they'll generally sort of that will be one of the more persecuted demographics and perhaps you can talk about

like how you got into participating in water drops and how other people could do so or any any form of like direct mutual aid as opposed to like advocacy yeah yeah absolutely i mean i think i think the main thing to take away is that it's easier to help or participate than one would think you know i think you look at this issue of immigration and it's so overwhelming right now and it can be a bit like oh god you know what can i possibly do or you know and even if i'm you know what difference am i making you know and it's just like i have the same struggles working as you know an immigration attorney because you're just like, God, you see just the vast need. And, you know, you focus on the person in front of you, you know, and not to sound cheesy, but that's the life you can affect. And so we're, and all of us collectively have an impact more than we know, you know, so I think that's just the first thing to share. So don't,

don't feel defeated. And, and think that, remember that if you have 20 extra bucks a month to spare, for example, like if you donate that to supplies for migrants, then that literally allows the work of water dropping to continue. And, and, you know, that's the other side of the coin. If we can go out all we want, but if we don't have money or supplies to drop, then nothing gets done. So if you live in any part of the country, really, you can find a reputable organization or BRC is a collective. I volunteer with Borderlands Relief Collective. goes directly to the supplies that we drop. And that's a very, it's a huge tangible source of help. All of our supplies are consumed, as you know, within a week or so, we think, you know, so it's just, there's so many different ways to, to participate. There's organizations that allow you to talk to detained immigrants, you know, like Freedom for Immigrants, or, you know, there's different ways you can help

if you want to communicate with them. There's also Detention Resistance, who works with the people mainly in Otay Mesa, to help just provide even a source of support, just someone, a human being to talk to, who can help them with little things, like writing letters or putting money in their account, to be able to contact family members. I little things but those things are huge yeah because if you can

imagine being an immigrant in another country and you know somebody in that and you're in a prison but somebody in that country or a few people are are showing you love i think at the end of the day whether you're officially deported or went asylum or whatever, those are the things that stick with people. Because I know that they're going to remember that probably for the rest of their lives. Yeah. And I think it's the least we can do to be welcoming. Exactly. The state has failed to do so.

Exactly. That's why the welcome stations that we do are so beautiful too, right? Because it's just, I mean, what we were doing that day when we met those two people, or the three people rather, and it's just like they get a they get a help a loving helpful person as their first exposure to the United States and then you know instead of border patrol

which makes them take off their shoelaces and treats them like you know yeah like they're criminals exactly exactly yeah and it's nice like I've exchanged numbers with those people and they're like oh you're the first American I met you'll always be like my first American friend someone said the other day and I thought that was really sweet like it's nice. I've exchanged phone numbers with those people, and they're like, oh, you're the first American I met. You'll always be my first American friend, someone said the other day, and I thought that was really sweet. It's a beautiful thing.

It's a beautiful thing. I think about that all the time with my clients. I'm just like, God, I feel so fortunate to meet all these people from different countries. And I'm embarrassed to say that I have to usually Google where the country is. It's awful. I don't know what our geography education was,

but let's just say I didn't get much of it. But, you know, just where am I going to meet people from Belize, from Kenya, from Trinidad, from Chad, you know, and be able to really share life with them to a certain extent? Or, you know, I know their most vulnerable and awful experiences. I know their family, you know, or about their families and about them. And it's a really beautiful thing so it's just um you know unfortunately so to have to interact with

them in a prison is just you know it's just uh it's just ridiculous you know but so that's why those welcome tables are i think so just pure and precious because at that moment there's no bullshit involved yet there's no u.s government it's just humans interacting with humans yeah totally it's really nice like it's one of the better things that i like to do and yeah if you're in a place where you can do it you should do it if you're not it would be great if you're getting your money i am going to read as we finish up uh a plug for the sidewalk school matamoros and reynosa um i just want to like they are in desperate need of money right now they do amazing work uh with people on both sides of the border i've been on a panel with felicia for ucla that you can find if you're good at googling things it's on youtube it's the allied community arts

brigade at ucla hosted uh the panel so if you if you search that and board a panel i'm sure you'll find it and if you want to know more about the sidewalk school i recommend it um and we're joined there by people from Border Kindness and Alo Trolado, which are both excellent organizations working on the border here. But the sidewalk school

are working with refugees and asylum seekers on both sides of the border in Matamoros and Reynosa, so in the Texas area. And they desperately need your money.

If you would like to support them, you can go to gofund.me slash 06 CD OC 76. And we'll include that in the notes of this podcast as well. Kirsten, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.

Thank you, James. It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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