IT IS WHAT IT IS - Episode 22 #ITISWHATITISTALK

Episode Date: July 23, 2023

"FIRST TAKE" VERY OWN STEPHEN A. SMITH PULLED UP ON US...

I said it's only one. Oh, he ain't got it. He ain't got it. We done heard his tongue. Welcome back, everyone. Today, we have a very special guest. He was born in the Bronx, but raised in Queens. He went from writing sport articles for print to hosting a radio show to now being the face of ESPN. He worked diligently to not only break stories, but analyze and debate about prominent players. He is the business of the sports business and is currently the executive producer and featured commentator of the very successful show First Take on ESPN. He also hosts the Stephen A. Smith Show where he talks about various topics.

He is known for his bold and authentic takes and his trusted voice in the world of media. Welcoming the one and only Stephen A. Smith. Hey, hey, hey. What's going on, man? How y'all doing? That's what I'm saying. You made it. Yeah, man.

Happy to be here. I told y'all I'd be here for you, bro. I told y'all I'd be here. Oh, you made it, man. We appreciate it. No doubt. Look, we're not going to waste no time. We're going to get right into it.

Sure. Cool. So I see you on the podcast. I'm not sure if it was Matt Barnes and Stack 5. And you were saying how you got back on first tape. Right. With Skip and everybody. Or Skip on how y'all started on first tape.

Yeah. It was a quick answer. Skip was upset and did about an hour on his podcast. I wouldn't say a rant. Whatever his point of view was. Yeah. And he seemed to be upset about it. So you never responded. You're always on record saying

you're never going to disrespect Skip, which is cool. But I'd like to know, what were the blurred lines between your story and his story? Well, what happened is he thought that I was saying, and he apologized to me for it in fairness to him. He thought that I was saying his show

before I arrived was failing, and he desperately needed me. So he begged me to come on. That is not what I said. What I said was he came to me and said, I have taken this as far as I can take it. I'm doing fine, but to take this to another level, I need somebody sitting across from me that I can trust. And you're the only one that I can trust that's going to bring it every day, that's got the focus and the tenacity and everything else that I have that I can trust will help me take that to the next level. And so when I reminded him that that was what I said, he fessed up and acknowledged that there were people in his ear that was interpreting it differently and got and it got to him and it hurt him a lot. And so he overreacted and I said, cool. And I think that, you know, ultimately at that particular moment in time, listen, First Take has been incredibly successful without him, but it was also successful with him. And the one thing that Skip at the time and I

always had a desire to was to work together again. And when that couldn't happen, I think that was something that obviously disappointed him. And it disappointed me, too, because I wanted him back with me at ESPN at the time. He wanted to be back with me, but it was something that we couldn't make materialize because a lot of people don't realize that when you're in this business, there's so much that goes into it. Like, for example, you got a contract. Well, you got a negotiating window where you could talk to somebody else and you got to operate in good faith, which means you can't negotiate with anybody else at the same time. You can't have competition. Then not only that, let's say, for example, you can't reach an

agreement and you decide that you want to depart. Well, sometimes when you want to depart, you got to sit out for a certain period of time, which could ultimately compromise your success. If you recall, when Skip Bayless left First Take at ESPN, he departed in June of 2016. You never saw his face again until that September because his contract with ESPN didn't expire until then. And he wasn't allowed to work for anybody else until that period of time. And a lot of times in this industry, when you disappear out of sight, out of mind, and people are very, very hesitant to let that happen, which means that's why it doesn't happen too often. And that's what was going on.

And so taking all of that into consideration, that was just something that he didn't want to do and he couldn't afford to do in his mind. I understood that. Gotcha. Because when I seen that, I was like, this is kind of going far. You gave like a three minute answer and he went like through the whole hour. Well, I was pissed. Yeah. I flew out to LA

We're right there that went to LA Yes, I was in I was in I was going to LA on business anyway, but I moved my flight You my man, I've never Disrespected you I've never I've never I've never disrespected you. I've never done anything like that for you to go. And that was my first question to him. I said, I literally want to know what would make

you take a 60-second remark and make it into a 45-minute remark. I was like, I was too many seconds. I was like, I'm just doing it. He went from the time, like, it was ridiculous. I'm like, yo, he was really upsetting.

I thought it was a little bit of jealousy, my personal opinion, Ken's personal opinion, because where you took first take to where it was before, I don't know, I'm not into the ratings and everything, but it's not hard to see. Right. Well, we've been number one for 11 and a half years. We started out number one with Mia Skip for four. We've been number one the last seven and a half since he's been

gone. So it is what it is. But that doesn't take away anything from the fact that I would not have been on first take if it were not for him. Absolutely. And that's why it doesn't matter what's going on or whatever. Me confronting you man to man is entirely different than what I'm going to say in front of the cameras. I will defend myself in front of anybody.

But in terms of me going on the attack, no, I'm very personal with shit like that. I will roll right up. Same thing you said with Allen Overseas. You have to go to Atlanta to talk to Allen Overseas. That was wild, too. That was wild because, I mean, listen, I'm a reporter and I got a job to do. And listen, we all from the streets. You know what I'm saying?

A lot of times people think it's about getting your ass. Whose ass can you whip? No, it's not. It's about what you're willing to take an ass whipping for. Where do you stand on your principles? I like that one. And so it's not a matter of whether you can beat somebody, whether you can fight somebody or whatever. It's about the fact you ain't backing down when you know you right.

And in the case of Allen Iverson, that was many years ago. Knowing the love that I have for this man, that's my little brother. He was hurt over what I wrote. And he wasn't realizing I really didn't say anything. I was really saying you got to stop partying. You got to focus on what you got to do. That's all I really said. I gave no details.

But other cats got in his ear. We hadn't spoken because he departed from the sixties. He was gone for eight months. And then I'm in Atlanta one day and they were like, yo, man, you know, I was on my way to Atlanta. Rather. They were like, yo, man, you, you know, you got to stay out of that city. Hey, I. And he's looking for you. And if him and the crew find you, and I'm like, what? So I moved up that flight. I moved up that flight. And I rolled to Atlanta looking for him.

And we found each other. And I will tell you, that was a total change. Because when I saw him and I spoke to him, I never felt so bad in my career. What happened is he looked me dead in the face. He said, I don't give a shit about the article, man. It's that it was your name. It was you. He said, that's what hurt me.

I don't care what anybody says. It's true or false or whatever. He said, it was because it was you. And I said, I feel you. But what did I say? Read the article. I really didn't say anything. Somebody else should have said that story. You know something? I understand it's a rare, rare moment in this industry, but our relationship is on a different level. And so he's the kind of person that I can or rather I'm the kind for him. I'm one of the few people on the planet that can pull him aside and tell him anything. Yeah. Talk to him about anything because of the relationship, the brotherhood that we got. He's like a little brother to me. So because of that, it's like, all right, the hell with all of this journalism stuff or whatever.

It's on another level with me and him. And from this day forward, anything that I say is going to be to him. I got nothing to say about him unless it's to him. And so from that point forward, you know, he retired thereafter. We talk at least two, three times a month. He's always calling me and I'm always calling him, checking up on each other, and that's our relationship. Yeah, we love our life.

One more thing before we move on to the next. Being what's going on with everything with Skip and sharing everything, would you want to work with Skip again now? No, but it has nothing to do with it. Seriously. It has nothing to do with it. That was a strong note. That was a strong note. But that has nothing to do with... That was a strong note. That was a strong note.

But that has nothing to do with Skip. Okay. Look, yo, fellas. And then listen, not to cut you off, I know it's contracts and everything. Everything is clear out the way contractually. And y'all had the opportunity to work today. No.

No. Would you send somebody to work with Skip? Yeah. But I want to hear his reason why not. All right. My life has moved in a different direction. I'm not just the host of First Take. I'm the executive producer.

I got my own production company. I got my own podcast that I own and operate. I'm doing a little acting these days. I got a recurring role on the soap opera, General Hospital. I mean, I never tried. I never took an acting lesson in my life. I need to. I need to go.

I need help. But the point is, is that I'm doing a lot of things now. And it's important to me to do that on my own now. When I think about me on first take, I honestly view myself as somebody that's facilitating success for a whole bunch of people that I'm bringing on the show. I got mine. And so because I got mine and I was able to accomplish and do what I do, I'm out to do different things. Now, if you notice, I brought that cat, Kenny Beacham, that's got his own spot on YouTube right now. He's a basketball guru.

I'm looking for young talent that I'm going to bring on and stuff like that. I see people that work for ESPN, Ryan Clark, Marcus Spears, and others. I'm looking at their success. Well, it grew on first take in part. And so for me, knowing the executives, having the relationships that I have, speaking up for cats, you see ladies like Monica McNutt and Kimberly Martin and others and Mina Combs and people like that. Dan Orlovsky, even it's not just the brothers is black, is white, is male, is female. Molly's still with me on first take. I'm looking at myself as a person that's going to do everything that I can to set up opportunities, not just for people who are there with me, but folks want to come up.

You, one day, you going to be there. You know, if I can't have anything to say about it, I'm just looking for opportunities. I'm looking at y'all. I'm looking at everybody. Cam knows, you know, you roll up on me. Yo, man, I need your advice. I need your, here it is. No problem.

I definitely call for advice. It's all about that. Because if I'm not doing that, then what purpose do I serve? I've been very blessed and fortunate enough to achieve a level of success that most people in my industry haven't achieved. I'm not going to do that and be at the top all by myself. I want to bring as many people with me as I possibly can, as many of us as I possibly can. I ain't apologizing for that shit to nobody. I certainly want to facilitate success for a lot of people but especially my

brothers and sisters that's just the way that I roll and so for me to be able to help cats along the way I'm good with that because I got other visions I've got other dreams and aspirations that I'm after cool that's why I wouldn't work with Skip got you before we go on 90 athletes I want to talk about a few year contemporaries so it's no secret that after a couple years, you didn't want Max Kellerman on the show. Right. Correct. A lot of people would be like, Stephen A got Max kicked off the show. Why did

he get Max kicked off the show? I didn't look at it like that. I looked at it when Max left First Take, the very next week, he was on two different shows on ESPN. Right. So, what I want to ask you is this. Before Max left First Take, did you make sure that he had another slot on ESPN with another job?

Or was you like figuring it out, we've done this two, three years? I absolutely knew that he had landed spots. Okay. I absolutely knew that he had landed spots. And I don't like talking about it too much because people try to make it into something that it isn't. I do not dislike Max. I do not hate Max, nothing like that.

I certainly didn't want him fired and to be without a job. I did not want to work with him anymore. Period. I thought that we had reached our limit. I thought that the show was stale and it needed to change with us. I was even

willing to leave first take. If you wanted to keep him there, let him do first take. I knew that we together would not win. And because of that, I let them know this is what I feel. Now, you do what you want to do. You keep him. You keep me. You move him.

You move me. Whatever decision you make. But I'm telling you where I stand. Fully aware of the fact that once they made that decision, he was going to be all right. He had his dollars. He had his contract. He wasn't going anywhere. He wasn't going anywhere. To me, it was all about me making

it clear I didn't want to work with him anymore because I didn't believe we could win together anymore. The discomfort and all of that other stuff, it really didn't matter to me because I had told him this to his face on many occasions. He understood exactly the way I felt. I've seen 10 episodes myself where you expressed it.

That's right. And I told him. Do you think he felt the same? No. No. But I don't care. Wow. I still don't care. I don't care because I meant what I said.

I'm trying to win. And if I feel like the formula is a losing formula, then I'm going to change. We watch sports. We talk about sports all the time. You know what? This cast that LeBron love, how come they ended up off of Cleveland? How come they ended up out of Miami? How come they end up out of L.A.?

Because they didn't contribute to a winning formula. The same with D-Wade. The same with Kobe. The same with Shaq. The same with MJ. The same with everybody. When you're trying to win, okay, complacency and just collecting the check ain't cutting it. And so to me, if you're going to reach a point where you don't believe that you can get it done

together, if you're trying to win, you care. If you're trying to get paid and that's all you care about, then you don't care. Now, I can't speak for what he felt, but I let him know what I felt. And that's why I've never harbored a scintilla of guilt. I said what I meant. I meant what I said. I didn't say he wasn't a talent. I didn't say he should not have a job. I didn't say that he shouldn't make his paper.

I said none of those things. All I ever said was he and I don't work together. Let him work with somebody else. He work with Marcellus Wiley or somebody he might do some things he worked with Shannon Sharpe or somebody he might do some things he worked with other people he might do some things with me yeah he and I did not work for me anymore because I knew that that wasn't gonna be a winning formula right let me get one more one more your contemporaries um so this is Cam's opinion. So he's got 20 years straight, Brian Wynhurst.

Great job he does for ESPN. But my thing with him is how he got to ESPN. And I wanted to get your opinion on this because to me, in the outside looking in, I may be oblivious and don't have the knowledge of this, but it looked like to me you're from Cleveland or Ohio in that area. You follow LeBron James around for his high school career.

And then when LeBron gets to the NBA because of the big name he is, that you get a job automatically on ESPN without doing the other work that you or anybody else may have to do. I don't think that's fair. And I don't know if that's how it went. If that is how it went, he gets this job because of LeBron. How do you feel about that? Well, a couple of things. Number one, I think that Brian

Wendhouse is a sensational basketball analyst. I think he's great what he's been doing. He does. He does a great job. He really, really does. I love having him on my shows. I would say he's never disappointed me. That's number one. Number two, I don't know all the particulars of what he was doing before he got to ESPN.

Here's what I would tell you. You might be blaming the wrong person. Okay. How about blame LeBron? Explain why. We don't talk about this. Yeah, I want to see what you're saying. We don't talk about this.

Yeah, I would like to hear this. Brian Winters, first of all, one of the things about ESPN, understand something. We don't keep scrubs. You might get through the door for a second. You ain't lasting unless you can get it done. Right. And there's a whole bunch of cats at ESPN that can get it done, and Brian Wintors is one of them.

You listen to his brother, it speaks for itself. Yeah, and not to cut to it, that was what I was saying. He does a great job. I know you said it. How did he get in the door? But my point is this. If you get in the door because you decide to turn LeBron into a beat, meaning instead of covering the team, cover him,

you're going to pick the person most identifiable with him. That's fine. No problem at all. Again, I don't know if that's the case, but let's just take your hypothetical because it could be right. I don't know. I just know he does a great job for us. But what I would say to you is this. We live in a day and age, particularly when it comes to black folks in this industry. Say what you want about MJ, but who was his man? It was Amar Rashad.

Amar Rashad was a former NFL player. Right. It was Amar Rashad. Amar Rashad was a former NFL player. But he was at NBC, and everybody knew, you want to talk to MJ, Amar Rashad was his guy. Right. You know, you look at Shaq, you look at Kobe, you know, they spoke to me. Right. You know, they spoke to other people.

They spoke to me. Those are my boys. AI, needless to say, et cetera, et cetera. Right. LeBron James, Brian Wintos, and Rachel Nichols. Right. That's your call. Right.

You got every right to do what you do. But I'm just saying to you, and I've said this before. I said, listen, there's no shade. There's no knock on anybody. Everybody can do what they want to do. But I'm in Miami. What do you say? Cam Ramos was like, yo, dog, you be free.

Yeah, I'm here. Yeah. Consider it done. You see what I'm saying? You got people that you look out for, and you want to big up the industry. And one of the things that I said, you know, to LeBron, a lot of people sit up there and say to me, yo, man, y'all never sit down. You ain't sit down with LeBron in the longest time, really, since I called him out about his performance against the Dallas Mavericks

in the NBA Finals. But I'm cool as hell with LeBron. He's cool people. He's a great role model. But we don't rap like that. We just cordial, respectful, and we keep our separate ways. But my issue was, where's the brother or

sister that's attached to you? Right. I've seen you say that on many occasions. I wasn't sure exactly. I can't remember who it was, but superstars, like you said, should have a liaison, so to speak, like yourself or like Muhammad Ali. I told you, I said it doesn't need to be

me. I like this. I want to speak it up for myself. You know, you got cast like Chris Haynes that's working for the NBA, does great work on TNT. You got Marcus Spears who's been covering the NBA for us for the undefeated and all of that stuff and all of this other stuff for ESPN along with a host of others. Chris

Boussard was at ESPN before he went to Fox. You know, he used to work in Akron, Ohio. He used to work for the Akron Beacon Journal. He used to do work on the Cavaliers and stuff like that. So when you look at certain cats and it's like, again, I would pick up the phone, call Dwyane Wade, what you need. Floyd Money Mayweather, what you need. You know what I'm saying?

A whole bunch of athletes I'm calling. It's like, yo, yeah, you talk to everybody, but you understand the climate that we're living in, the trials and tribulations that we have to go through as minorities in this nation, etc., etc. And so when you look at white guys, who are they talking to? Who's the brother or sister

that's their liaison? I haven't seen one. There's always one of them. But when it comes to us, that ain't always the case. And so for me, I wouldn't look at Wintour's. I wouldn't look at any of these cats. I would look directly at the athlete because I'm telling you something right now. Me being in a

position that I'm in, guess what? I'm speaking to you. Guess who I'm going to be speaking to a few hours or a day or so later? It's going to be the Sports Brothers here in Miami. Why? Because they were on the graveyard shift. They were on at midnight. Asked them. They asked me to come on. I came on live

at 2 a.m. 2 a.m. Why? Because they were young brothers trying to make it. And they asked me to do them that favor. And I stayed up and I did it just to help them. Isaiah Thomas. Isaiah Thomas, the great Isaiah Thomas, two-time NBA champion, national champion, Indiana Hall of Famer,

one of the greatest point guards ever, gave me my first NBA interview. I was a high school reporter. He stopped the media session and walked over to me and said, what you need, young fella? That was the first time I ever met Isaiah Thomas in 1993. I remember stuff like that. People sit up there and you got Jordan, you got Amar Rashad and all this stuff. But he's MJ. He got the Jordan brand. Well, I got him on speed dial. Right.

Because it's me. He don't do that for everybody. Right. I'm not Amar Rashad. I'm not Michael Wilbon. But outside of those two, I'm me. And Michael Jordan got that kind of love for me. Kobe, God rest his soul, the

Black Mamba. How many times you see me doing interviews with him? He ain't talking to the media. He go and he talk. But that's Stephen A. Come here. You see what I'm saying? It's stuff like that. And what I do is I pay it forward. The same thing that they did for me, I try to do for cats in this industry. That's what it's about. Maybe you got that in your soul or you don't right? That's what so so look let's move on. Yeah

You have the same view as us up here with Scottie Pippen with this nonsense going on with Michael Jordan. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah We're a little more raunchy than you are on our show. Y'all can be. I went for the mouse. What we want to know is, because we got our own opinion, do you think this place is coming purely from basketball or that

Michael Jordan is dating his baby's mother? Michael Jordan's son, pardon me, is dating his baby's mother. And ex-wife. Do you think all this hate. Michael Jordan. No, no. Michael Jordan's son, pardon me, is dating his baby's mother. And ex-wife. Yeah, yeah. Do you think all this hate towards Michael Jordan is because of that or it's just purely basketball?

But Scottie makes it like it's only basketball. And I think it's some things that's outside of basketball. I don't know the answer to that question. I addressed it on my podcast, Stephen A. Smith Show, and I just said, yo, is it that? I did ask the question because I don't know. Right. What I do know is that you're a six-time champion. This man was your teammate

and the star of the team that you were on all six championships. Yeah. You know, he was there when you had the migraine and couldn't show up. He wasn't there when you quit and refused to enter the game because Phil Jackson didn't call the last play for you. He was there telling you don't sign that contract that you elected to sign

and felt underpaid by. He was there for all that. And, you know, to me, to just go off on MJ like this now, it's like, wait a minute. You know, I saw when you kicked up your sneakers, showed you were wearing the Jordans, begging them to come back. I saw all of that.

I mean, come on, man, what you doing? I mean, it was really unfortunate that Scottie would do that. I don't know the answer to that question as a reporter, but I will tell you this, as a man, it's not far-fetched. If

I got an issue with you, I'm jealous. I don't make your money. I feel you should have looked out for me better than you may have. You know, the last dance, you had editorial control over that. And look at how you portrayed me in that in my mind. Yeah, that might agitate me. No doubt about it. But if that agitates you, I can't imagine how his son hooking up with your ex-wife would not agitate you. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it doesn't. I mean, some of us are made from a different cloth. If I'm with you, I'm with you.

If I'm not with you, I have my time. Live your life. But there are some other people, some other men, that have a very, very difficult time moving on in that regard. That's not unreasonable, but I don't get into it because that's so personal. And if he did feel that way, you sort of can't blame him. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you can't control his son.

You know, because it's entirely possible the son, the father would have went to the son. And the son would have been like, yo, dad, I love you, man. I'm a grown man. And this is what I want to do. That is possible. But I'm just saying that we just don't know. And I don't want to speculate it. Because I wouldn't even blame him.

I wouldn't even blame him if he did feel that way. I really wouldn't. That shit cost him. I wouldn't even blame him if he did feel that way. I really wouldn't. That shit cost you I can see Mike going to him and I can see his son just saying. That shit is because Scotty is mad because he's team. That's my opinion that Scotty's upset. Like you said, you can't be mad at Scotty, but

yo, your hand, your acting, it sounds so crazy because it's Mike. A horrible player. Yeah, horrible player is ridiculous, man. You're the greatest player who's ever lived. You know, you came into the league averaging seven. Michael Jordan averaged 28 his rookie year. Yeah.

His rookie year. Right. Ten-time scoring champion, nine-time All-NBA defensive player, six-time champion, six NBA Finals MVPs. I mean, really? Really? Yeah. Really, that's what we doing? I mean, it's ridiculous. Exactly. champion, nine-time All-NBA defensive player, six-time champion, six NBA Finals MVPs. I mean, really? Really? Yeah.

Really? That's what we're doing? Right. I mean, it's ridiculous. Exactly. It's ridiculous. It's clear to me. If you ask me, it's definitely over women. And I understand that because I went through that a lot.

I don't think it's the only thing, though. It's got to be. Some of it's got to be the envy part because, listen, remember, Michael Jordan owns the Jordan brand, and he's one of the few black billionaires in this world. Scottie Pippen was working for the Bulls to make a paycheck at one point in time. So let's

understand, their oceans apart. I didn't know that. He used to work when he first retired. He was working for the Bulls. What was he doing? I don't even know. Something community affairs or whatever. I'm not the hell involved. But it wasn't as an assistant coach. Yo, it wasn't as an assistant coach.

It wasn't as a player personnel dude. It wasn't as an assistant to the VP or the GM. It wasn't none of that. Right. It wasn't none of that. Gotcha. Really, it wasn't. Cool.

So, what I wanted to ask you now, I want to move on to Bob Myers. Sure. So, he's leaving. He left Golden State. I've seen you allude that the owner's son may be moving into the GM. Kirk and Kent. Exactly. I'm thinking that Bob Myers wants to get the hell out of there because players are getting older. Contracts are coming up.

And I think he gets really personal with his players. Real quick, even like when Kevin Durant tours Achilles or whatever, he's up there crying. Yeah. And really emotionally involved with his players. Real quick, even like when Kevin Durant tours Achilles or whatever, he's up there crying and really emotionally involved with the players. I believe that Draymond's contract is coming up soon, Clay's contract is coming up soon, and they're going to want to get paid because they have a personal relationship

with Bob Myers. Do you think that has any part of him leaving? You can make an argument about that. I would respectfully disagree, and I say respectfully because I understand it's a very reasonable conclusion to draw. Right. But I think, here's what I think, and this is just my personal opinion as somebody that knows the owner.

I'm very cool with Joe Lacob. Right. I'm very cool with Draymond and those guys. And here's the deal, and I know Bob Myers very well. When you're working for an owner, Joe Lacob is demanding. That brother ain't playing. He want to win. He wants to eclipse the Boston Celtics and the Los Angeles Lakers

for the most championships in NBA history. We both got 17. He not BSing. I mean, he will take his money and pour it right back into the franchise because the franchise in itself, its value elevates, and as a result, you make your money that way. But he's not playing. He don't care.

He don't care about spending $300 million, $400 million in luxury taxes. He don't care. I mean, he's that fixated on winning. That's a pressure cooker of a situation to live in, especially when he has two children who want to do your job. Right. And Kirk and Kent, more so Kent, you know,

running the G League operations, et cetera, et cetera. You got cats that really, really believe they can do this. And so that's his children. They're the heir apparent. You know that if you Bob Myers, you don't want four championships.

You want, you know, been the six in the last nine years NBA finals that is what else do I have to prove why I be here for this and so what you want to do is you want to position yourself to get a better situation could be the Clippers could be the Phoenix Suns but what you do is you start off at a place that don't have a

championship on their resume in the Clippers case ever and in the Suns' case, recent memory. And so if you have that going on for yourself, then you're able to position yourself based on the credentials that you built at that pressure cooker to sit up there and say, I have a more peaceful scenario, a more tranquil scenario with not as much pressure. And I think that, to me, and I haven't spoken to him about that as of yet. But to me I would surmise that that played a bigger role than

what you what you expressed got you why don't you think they give him on Jackson the job or offer him a job. I think I my personal opinion is that Mark Jackson express some things when he was the coach of the Golden State Warriors that turned some people off and they haven't forgiven him right uh you know i understand the times that we're living in the woke culture and all of that stuff you got xenophobia you got transphobia you got homophobia and all of that stuff going on but back then you know it was really just beginning right and him being a religious brother

that endured some trials and tribulations and found God and was more religious than ever before. My personal opinion is that Mark Jackson spoke out about some things, turned a few folks off, and they never let it go. And so I think, because there's no excuse for him

not to have had a head coaching job by now, considering the job he did in Golden State that set things up for Steve Kerr and, B, the success that Steve Kerr and the Golden State Warriors have had. Tradition shows that if you have that kind of success, then what somebody would say is,

look at the success Golden State is having. I know Mark Jackson was going, but he's the one that put all of this stuff in play. And so because he put all of this stuff in play, you know, Draymond Green, Witt Clay, a couple of years after Steph arrived, you know, because all of this stuff was put in play, Mark Jackson's got something to do with it. Let him do it for us. That's what would usually happen. That did not happen in this particular situation. I believe that's the reason why. So why doesn't that transfer forward?

You said you made a notion of Bob Myers and how he's able to go to another team. Why hasn't Mark Jackson, you think, been able to go to another team? I'm saying that to be quite – If you put all that together. I'm saying what I said. Mark Jackson spoke out. If you remember, you know, of course they wanted him to do some things. They would like to talk to him, whatever. He's very dogged, very strong willed and wants to do things his way.

One of certain assistant coaches. But he had also spoken out when people were celebrating the president coming out and acknowledging that he was homosexual. Mark, Mark didn't vibe with that at the time. And so because of that, again, that's just my personal opinion. It's something that I've said on TV in the past, where when you echo certain sentiments, if the industry turns against you because of it, it's pretty hard to be re-embraced by that industry. And I think that's the challenge that he's been dealing with. Let me ask you this. Although no one will admit it.

Right, and I already kind of assumed that, but nobody likes to talk about it. Let me ask you this. What do you feel about players missing games and not giving explanations of why they missed games and then get mad at media for assuming whatever they want to assume? Well, first of all, I think they're full of it, and I don't like it, and I'm going to call their asses out every chance I get.

You know, I don't care. No, because we said some things, not to I don't care. We said some things about when Andrew Wiggins missed games and nobody knew what was going on, so they're like, oh, y'all jumping the gun. But the whole thing is with us, we're like, if you don't explain to us, we're going to assume because we're not going to be there as long as you are. I'm not talking about something

like that. Like, for example, Andrew Wiggins had some family issues going on that were very personal. You don't want to talk about that. That's fine. Right. I'm gone because of a family matter. You're not saying I'm gone because, you know, you're not on drugs.

It's not telling the world you're on drugs or alcohol. In the beginning, it wasn't no family matter. It just said he's missing. Right. And they shouldn't do that. But the teams have their way of doing things. And a lot of times the players do get a bad rap because the teams are the ones that control their message instead of them. A lot of times when they're skipping time,

it's because the team sat up there and said, you ain't playing strength and conditioning coaches and stuff like that, team doctors, we signed you to this contract, they're trying to preserve you for it, we make our most money to come play off time, we need you there, we don't need you out there. Now, there are teams that put their fingerprints on things and influence stuff to some degree.

So that's accurate i'm talking about the players that you know you going home in april every year right and you exercise and load management during the season or even if you go on to the playoffs and you know you missing 20 25 games but you're on the bench in street clothes you clearly healthy you smiling, living your life. Fans came through the turnstiles to see you. They got no heads up, no warning whatsoever that you wouldn't be playing, and you don't seem to give a shit. Now, that's a problem.

That's something that has to change. You can't have that going on. You can show – listen, my attitude is this. You're getting a minimum of five months off. You're getting a minimum of five months off in most situations. 28 of the 30 teams getting about five months off a year. During the season, you ain't practicing every day. You know, I mean, you're talking about a league that was built on cats

that had to fly commercial. They didn't have chartered flights. They didn't have first-class troops. They weren't sleeping in five-star hotels. They didn't get a per diem. They didn't have massage therapists, people for pedicures, manicures, and all this stuff. They didn't have all of that.

That's what I've been talking about. You're getting everything, and you're still taking time off. And if you add it all up, if you add it all up, take the five to six months a year you got off, combined with the time you've taken off, you really, most of them really working for six months a year you got off. Combined with the time you taking off, you really, most of them really working four or five months a year. Right.

And getting paid nine figures. Right. Average salary in the NBA is $10 million per year. Yeah. And you trying to tell me that you can't show up 82 nights a year, even if you go on the court for 10 minutes. You can't just show up. Now, come on, man. I'm not buying that.

And I think they do need to be held accountable for it. Gotcha. But how? Well, again, I don't know how you can do that because, again, once their contracts are guaranteed and all that stuff, me personally, I would have messed with their money. I would have messed with their money. And I would be like this, yo, man, you going to sit on that bench now? You going to sign some autographs?

You going to take some pictures? You going to do something. You going to do something to earn this money. Because remember, the people ain't coming through the turnstiles just to watch you play basketball. They came to see you. And so remember how Steph Curry, who's class personified, by the way, remember how Steve Kerr sat him out? And it was this little girl that they showed on TV that was crying her heart out because she came to see Steph Curry. Well, the next time Steph Curry came to town, she was there.

And they made sure, you know, he went to see her, gave her a hug, took pictures with her, hung out with her. I think, as a matter of fact, she might have came to San Francisco to watch him play because she was so heartbroken. His heart was in the right place. So he made up for it. You see what I'm saying? Because he didn't know.

But the point is you got some players, not all, not most, but you got some players that don't give a damn. And if you don't give a damn, then we don't need to give a damn about paying you sometimes. We need to affect your money. We need to make sure that you're going to care about it as much as you want the fans to care about it. Because, remember, everybody don't get to afford to see the playoffs.

I go for free. I don't pay. I got that kind of access to it. A lot of people do. Millions upon millions of people only get to see them that one time. And it's a damn shame that they don't think about that in this day and age. But there are plenty of players who do not think

about that. And that is the shame. Cool. Now, if you didn't know, you're sitting next to this year's NAACP Journalism Award winner. Congratulations. And she had a couple questions she wanted to ask you. So before we go to break, try to ask them a couple of your questions. Okay, so we're just going to get straight into it.

So we're at the point where regardless of what you say, people want to listen to your voice. Mason Kams say they can't get canceled, they cancel themselves. Do you feel like it's the same for you? No, I don't feel like it's the same for me because I think that when you're associated with Walt Disney, you know, the one thing about me that I think that I praise myself for is that I maneuver through a minefield every day. How do I be a real and true as authentic as I can possibly be while still operating under the confines of corporate America. And Walt Disney is the very personification of corporate America. You got shareholders to consider, you know, not just the employees and the contemporaries that you work with.

And when you've got shareholders, it's about the bottom line in anything. The slightest little thing that affects their image can influence the stock market. And that's what you have to be mindful of. You can have this attitude that you don't care, you don't give a damn. And that's true. That's true. But here's the flip side. To be in the position that I'm in, understand outside of my talents, as a journalist, writer, reporter, pundit, whatever,

the biggest reason that I'm successful is that I've proven I can be trusted. You know I'm going to show up to work every day. You know I'm going to give it all I have. And you know I'm going to represent us in the best fashion imaginable. Why do I accept that responsibility? Because the treasures of the world, the mazes of the world, the Camerons of the world on the come up. And when you coming up and you're next in line, potentially, if I act up, I mess it up for everybody. And so for me, I accept that accountability. Where I'm hard is when you have brothers that are pioneers that have done it and not even

pioneers, but they followed up pioneers. They know the responsibility and they don't care. And they know it's going to cost other people. Now, I understand you got to have a level of intestinal fortitude. You got to be able to take it. And some people just can't because the frustrations of corporate America can creep up on you. I get that. But it's a difference between making a mistake, slipping.

And that's different than I don't give a shit. I don't care. I'm about me. I'm about mine. I'm about being real. And it's authentic. F all that. Y'all 40.

I'm real. I'm raw. Really? You can be real in a lot of ways. You can be real stupid. You can be real dumb. You can be real selfish. You can be real broke.

You can be real unemployed. You can be a whole bunch of real things. And so to me, it's important that I make sure I'm still that brother from the Bronx, raised in Hollis, Queens, from the streets of New York. I'm a brother to the core. I love

nothing in this world that I want more than that. I love more than being black. I love that shit. But in the same breath, having said all of that, I understand that my responsibility is to facilitate opportunities for others on to come up by showing corporate America. Yes, you can trust me. You can trust me. Therefore, you can trust a lot of us. So don't use it as an excuse to close the door. The second one person makes a mistake because I'm here and I'm showing you I don't necessarily I will not necessarily make those mistakes and there's a whole bunch of others that won't either to make

sure we fuel that machine that buffers your bottom line and therefore buffers our bottom line and that's what I live by okay very very very good point okay so you touched a little bit on it but do you feel fulfilled with your career? Nobody ever speaks of an end, but have you ever thought about walking away? No, I've never thought about walking away from the business. I've thought about walking away from a particular job. I've thought about walking away from first take, or I've thought about walking away from NBA countdown. I've even thought about walking away from sports from time to time is something I never fathomed doing because I love sports so much.

But new challenges are things that I like to embrace. Make no mistake about that. But I've never thought about walking away from the industry. I've never thought about, okay, no one needs to hear my voice. Let me be silent and disappear and go into the twilight. That's not me because I believe in myself. I believe in the impact that I have had and can continue to have. I believe in the kind of difference and the game changer that I can

contribute to being one of many of us out here. And I think that it's important for me to be that conduit because if I'm here and I'm present and I'm relevant, I can help more people that way than if I faded into the twilight and then somebody just picked up the phone from time to time. The more conspicuous, the more present you are, the more omnipotent you are, the more people are going to reach out to you because they're going to say you're that guy and I'm positioned to give advice. So when the time comes and it really is time for me to walk away, I can look at it with a smile on my face, knowing how many brothers and sisters I helped along the way to get to where i am that's why i'm still here that's why i don't see myself

going anywhere for the foreseeable future okay well thank you that is great and with that we'll be right back with the debate between one hour one heart, one love Excuse me, after last night performance, we gonna do this again? Yeah That's right I don't think so And make sure you close the door behind you When I tell you up, man. I'm Rico fucking strong.

I'm back. Hey! I'm back! Oh my god! Oh my god! Oh my god! Oh hell no! Welcome back. Okay, I told y'all we were going to get into some sports debates, so let's get to it. Are y'all ready? I'm ready. Okay, who would you rather have on your team, Steph Curry or Allen Iverson?

Steph Curry. Allen Iverson's a warrior, loving to death. But Steph Curry's a four-time champion. He's the greatest shooter God ever created. His movement without the basketball is unparalleled. I mean, you had J.R. Smith on social media a few weeks ago talking about Matthew Delvedova almost died because he was chasing him around that much.

He had to go to a hospital, get more oxygen, all that. Steph Curry, his movement without the basketball is what makes him just as lethal as his shooting ability, without question, is Steph Curry. But what I'm saying is this. You don't think he's in a better situation than Allen Iverson? Allen Iverson is who? Eric Snow. I've seen you say this on every –

McKee. Yeah. Radcliffe. Yeah. Come on, bro. You say Allen Iverson told you it's 24 seconds on the clock. If you pass it around, but Tommy gets that thing... Exactly.

How do... If Allen Iverson's system would go to state, you don't think that he would... He get the same chips? No. No. No. Because Steph Curry is the greatest shooter God ever created. And Allen Iverson could not shoot like that. He was a scoring machine, but he was a volume shooter. Career 41% shooting from the field, about 32% from three-point range.

Do you know that Steph Curry last year, first of all, 38% shooting from three-point range is really good. Do you know that Steph Curry last year, first of all, 38% shooting from three-point range is really good. Do you know that Steph Curry last year when he shot 38% is the only season in his career where he shot less than 40% from three? Steph Curry's a liability on defense. What was Allen? Allen got stills. He got three tops.

He got stills. Three tops. Fellas, y'all talk to him. He's got three tops. I respect you, but if you put AI on Golden State, they get fired. AI would sit right here in this seat and tell you he would take Steph Curry over himself. He would tell you that. I'm telling you that.

I got to hear that. I don't believe anything. Not only that, not only that. I don't believe anything. As somebody that covered Allen Iverson every game of his career in Philadelphia, every game. AI with Clay. AI was the steals leader

because AI would be the first to tell you he couldn't guard anybody straight up. So he would roam and anticipate steals because he couldn't guard anybody straight up. But you can't underestimate steals. You act like steals is not a big deal. No, I think it matters. I think it matters. I'm just saying

to you that Allen Iverson is phenomenal and great as he was, worthy of the Hall of Fame, a giant, a miniature giant as far as I'm concerned. He was not Steph Curry. No, we're not saying he was, but if you put him on Golden State, they would get five championships. I disagree. I disagree. You have the right to believe that.

I think when Golden State overcame Oklahoma City the year that Kevin Durant left, Oklahoma City was up 3-1. If Allen Iverson with that team is down 3-1 to Kevin Durant at Westbrook,

Oklahoma City wins that series. You're using one series, man. I'm not using one series. I can give you more. I can give you more. Stephen A, I don't know about this. I really don't know about this. I was letting Cam talk. I don't know about this. Listen, listen.

If you put AI at the top of that perimeter with Clay and the rest of the team that he had, it would be impossible to stop him. I'm telling you right now, Allen Iverson, I'm not saying he wouldn't have won rings. He took him to the chip without any of them. I'm not saying he would have won rings. I'm saying that he would have won, first of all.

He wouldn't have won a ring? I want to hear it from you. No, he wouldn't have won a ring. How many? How many? Not five. How many? No, Murda, this is a better question.

You take Steph Curry and put him on that team that Allen Iverson took to the championship. Does Steph Curry take that team to the championship? Yes. Oh my goodness. Yo, yo, yo. See, it's something in that cup. Check that cup. It's something in that cup. Can I tell you why? No.

Covering the team, I saw what Larry Brown and Billy King did. And they looked at Allen Iverson's scoring ability and they meticulously picked each spot for people who would do their jobs and do everything else so he could feel free to score.

They did everything else. I'm not, I don't look at it as, yes, Allen Iverson did lead Philadelphia 76ers with scoring machines, a league MVP. He was absolutely sensational. I never missed a game, but I will tell did lead the Philadelphia 76ers. He was a scoring machine. He was a league MVP. He was absolutely sensational. I never missed a game. But I will tell you that when you look at Theo Ratliff and then he gets hurt and they go and they acquire Dikembe Mutombo. When you look at Tyron Hill, George Lynch, Aaron McKee, Eric Snow, all of these guys, their jobs was to do specifically what they were brought there to do.

And I'm saying to you, they would have freed Steph Curry up to simply shoot. That's what I'm trying to tell you. On the East Coast? I'm saying. On the East Coast, they would have been banging. Wait a minute. He wouldn't have been able to get that. Okay, so you're saying he would have been hurt.

Yeah, he wouldn't have been able to do that on the East. Okay, then that's a different argument. No, no, I'm talking now. We're not taking that into account. I'm talking if you're healthy and you're on the court, his game, Allen Iverson's game, because of the way the team was constructed, I believe that Steph Curry would have been Steph Curry,

which means he would have shot better than 40% from three. He would have shot better than 47% from the field. I don't agree with that, Steph. I don't think Larry Brown would have let that main three show up. Larry Brown would have never shot from the low goal like that. I would say this to you. Steve Kerr was that type. Remember one of those highlights where Steph Curry dribbled? Yeah. Larry Brown was never shot from the low goal like that with Larry Brown. I will say this to you. Steve Kerr was that type.

Remember one of those highlights with Steph Curry dribbling? And he was like, no! Because Steph Curry is one of those rare breeds that you look at him, you're like, no, no! And you got to concede because his shooting is that great. He would have had Larry Brown blood pressure too high to play. I'm going to let y'all agree to disagree, but now I'm going to give a list of basketball duos. I want you to tell me who you believe is the best

and who you believe is the worst. Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown, Steph Curry and Klay Thompson, Jamal Murray and Nikoli Jokic, and LeBron and AD. Who's the best? Who's the worst? For me right now, it's Jokic and Murray because of what they're doing. The best for you? I said right now.

No, I'm saying the best. But they're your best. I would tell you they're the best because their symmetry with one another is unparalleled. Klay has fallen off a touch. We got to acknowledge that. Do I believe he'll come back? Yes, but he's fallen off a little bit. Obviously, Tatum and Brown are something special.

Here's the problem. They don't play together. They just wear the same uniform. They're not on both sides of the court feeding off of one another and capitalize off of each other's greatness. It's your turn. Do your thing. Okay, it's my turn.

I do my thing. They don't work together. Jokic and Murray works together. But I would still put LeBron and Anthony Davis last for one reason and one reason only. Anthony Davis misses too many damn games. That's my problem. I'm not talking skill. I'm talking about he's literally not reliable for consecutive games.

In, out, in, out, in, out. At his best, they'd be number one. The problem is you can't rely on him game to game. That's why he has to be fourth. What do you think, Murda? I think Tatum and Brown, their issue is that they're both great, but the offense should run through Jalen Brown. If I was a coach, I'd run it through Jalen Brown.

I think the idea of them both playing together because they're unsure of who should shoot the last shot, a lot of times that's what break the offense up. So would you make them your worst? I would make them my worst. I think you're insane to say that Jalen Brown should be the number one option ahead of Jason Tatum. Yes. No one, you can't find an NBA person that would agree with you on that. And we love Jalen Brown. No, and that's okay.

You can't find him. And that's okay. But that's why they keep losing because they're doing the thing you believe. Well, how do they keep losing? They were in the Eastern Conference Finals

the last two years and the NBA Finals last year. Because they keep going through Tatum and Tatum is soft-hearted. He's very skilled when it comes down to... In Game 7's average of 28 and 8? Yes, yes, yes.

Really? Talent and heart is two different things. We're watching that with Miami. Jason Tatum is not soft and he's not devoid of heart. He's not devoid of heart. You know what's funny? The thing that's funny is that me and Kevin Durant was talking. So I'm

talking to Kevin Durant and he's like, Boston is the most complete team. This is our first, second round. And I said, it's something about our first second round and i said it's something about boston that when it's time exactly it's just that i don't trust them he's like cam you don't know what you're talking about they're the most completely i said i i think they are but when it's time i don't know what it is you got jalen brown pardon me jason tatum who breaks larry bird's records and this that and the third and did he beat more than 50 games. Well, who would you rather have, Larry Bird or Jason Tatum?

Well, the answer to that was the same thing that people used to ask me about, LeBron James or Larry Bird. I used to be like this, LeBron James for the first 46 minutes, give me Bird for the last two. So you're saying – And that's how they do it hard. That's what I'm trying to communicate. But shooting ability too.

You're saying that you have Jason Tatum for the first 46 I know you said LeBron, but you're using that same equation with Jason Tatum for the first 46 minutes. For Larry Bird. No, we'll have questions. Larry Bird was clutch. But I'm talking about you don't want him for the whole game? No, no, no. I'm saying for me, not Larry Bird for the whole game, no. Oh, come on.

That's what he's saying. You're basically saying you'll take Tatum over Larry Bird. For the first 46 minutes. Oh, no, come on. Okay, let me ask you a question. Wait, wait, wait, wait. We'll have to get into that another day. We'll have to get into it another day. Come on now. We'll go all day.

What do you think happens in the last couple of minutes? What does that have to do with it? Pressure mounts. Pressure have to do with heart. Pressure mounts. I understand that. But what I'm saying to you is Jason Tatum has had moments where he's showing up under those lights not at the biggest light and other times he hasn't but game seven is a game seven bro and you go save

seven in the eastern conference finals you go get game seven in the eastern conference semifinals and you drop 51 you do that last year in the postseason you drop 46 in the closeout game six you down three two you go on the road to mil, you drop 46 against Giannis. That stuff matters. What I'm saying to you, however, is that if you show up sometimes and you don't show up other times, you just don't have it. It's not a matter of heart. It's a matter of heart when you don't show up at all. Now, I don't like saying this, but a James Harden would be an example. Like, yo, you've had ample opportunities to show up with a closeout game on the line. You're about to get sent

home and you show up and he has it repeatedly. That's not Jason Tatum. In, out, in, out, in, out. So it's not a matter of heart because you show up sometimes and other times you haven't. Oh, it's inconsistent. It's just inconsistency. I'm going with Larry Bird. I don't care what about it. Just Larry

Bird get them championships. Larry Bird will say, look, I'm better than you. I'm a play you. Larry Bird was my left hand tonight. Larry Bird was sensational. But I do think that at times he was a defensive liability. And so what I'm saying to you is that I know what he can do, but physically he would elevate himself in pressure moments. He could have sustained it physically over the course of 48 minutes.

So you're basically saying, I know the best ability is availability, but we're just using a prime time healthy Larry Bird. Then I would pick Larry Bird over Jason Taylor. That's what I'm saying. I don't have a problem with that. But I'm looking at it over the course of the game and what you physically can and can't do. And then in certain situations, you're looking at Hart.

James Harden has earned the reputation for people to question. I don't call him a choke artist and stuff like that. But there are other people who have. He's kind of earned that scrutiny because every time you're waiting for him to show up in those pressure moments, he has it. And that's the problem. And then before we wrap, what's your best and worst duo? Listen, I have a degree with Stephen A. I like Joker and Murray.

I was really with Klay and Steph until this year. My argument with a lot of people was that Klay Thompson been to the last, his last six years playing, he's been in the championship, win or lose. The two years that Golden State didn't go to the championship, he didn't play. So my argument with everybody is like, I don't care, because when Klay Thompson plays, he's in the championship. This year,

like Stephen A said, he doesn't look the same. So I'm going to give him another year, and then I'm going to be like, what's going on? But I have to agree with the best is the Joker and Murray right now. Okay. Again, Stephen A, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for coming by, man. We appreciate you. going on but i have to agree with the best is the joker and murray right now okay again steven a thank you so much for being here thank you for coming by man we appreciate you man yes thank you and make sure to hashtag it is what it is unless you know let us know your thoughts on the steven

interview we'll be right back She call this thing about toxic Boy isn't counting Got you feeling like an option Maybe I'm my own problem, babe She tired of hearing, I don't know What's happening in me won't fall Dealing with this thing called trust But she ain't really thinking about it

She wanna be free Why am I in this woman's way? She wanna be free Hell, I don't want to see her walk away. I wish somebody told me the rules. Disagreements let her win, and it's cool, even when I'm right to say about you. Welcome back.

Kim Kardashian wore a shirt taunting her sister, Kendall Jenner, starting five picks with a t-shirt of her ex-boyfriends. She's wearing a shirt titled, Kendall's starting five with her exes, Jordan Clarkson, Kuz, Ben Griffin, Ben Simmons, and Devin Booker. What are your thoughts?

That's a crazy starting five. I think the bitch got a lot of her fucking dastardly. Bitch, you started off fucking Ray J. Why do people ignore that? Now you're going to torture sister like she got mad. Nigga, she got it from you, bitch. Yo, you fucked Reggie Bush. I'm T-shirted to be crazy, too.

I'm T-shirted to be crazy. I'm T-shirted to be crazy. Now, I hope this is all fun and games with her sister because, listen, your starting five consists of athletes and entertainers. First of all, we got the head coach, Ray J. We got Reggie Bush. Then she made that basketball player wasn't shit. Then she found out

he wasn't shit and curved that nigga. Then she started fucking with another athlete. Then she got with Kanye and had kids. Got into an argument with Kanye. Rushed the fuck with Pete Davidson. Bitch, y'all line up as well, too. You got a lot of nerve, man. She's global. Yeah, there do it. She's global.

Yeah, there you go. She's global. Yeah, she's very global, but don't act like your sister ain't seen you do this shit first, bitch. Amen. Well, thanks for tuning in to today's episode. Stay tuned for the next, and as always, it is what it is. Outro Music