I've Had It - Keeping Up with the Cult

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

Trump IS a whiny titty baby and we'd say it to his face. CNN's Abby Phillip joins us to talk Trump, Behind the scenes of CNN, and her new book.Order our new book, join our Substack, and more by clicking here: https://linktr.ee/ivehaditpodcast.Thank you to our sponsors:This episode is brought to you by Booking.com: Head over tohttps://booking.com and start your listing today. Get Seen. Get Booked on Booking.com.Apretude by Viiv Healthcare: Learn more at https://APRETUDE.com or call 1-888-240-0340.Article: Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit https://ARTICLE.COM/hadit and the discount will be automatically applied at checkoutGoPure: Get the Tighten & Lift Neck Cream and Sculpt & Tone Arm Cream for 57% off OR get 25% off all other products with code Hadit at https://gopure.com #goPurepodFollow Us:I've Had It Podcast: @IvehaditpodcastJennifer Welch: @mizzwelchAngie "Pumps" Sullivan: @pumpspumpspumpsSpecial guest: Abby Phillip @abbydphillipSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Ready, one, two, three. Patriots, gay, trots, they triots, black triots, brown triots, and to all of the crusty motherfuckers that don't support them, you can. Fuck off! We are in New York City with the one, the only, Abby Phillip, who is single-handedly, in my opinion, making CNN. and relevant with your show. Yeah.

I know you can't call. That's a huge burden. I know it's a huge burden. How are you, Abby? Yeah, I'm hanging in there. Good. I'm having fun. Yeah.

And you come on the show a lot, which I love. I know. It's fun. We enjoy it. Yeah. You've given us some of our best one-liners, I think, in the history of the show. What's so funny about Jennifer is she'll say something and I'll react in real time, but we'll just move on.

And then I'll see a clip of it. on the internet, and I bust out laughing. I'm like, oh, my gosh, that was so funny because you're so quick. And so acidic tongue, is that a good way to say it? Yes, yes. And it'll sometimes come out of nowhere, which she'll just sort of start talking, and then it'll, she'll say something. I think it was like, you called Trump a whining.

Titty baby. Well, he is. That's, that was, that's in the top 10 things people have said on the show. Yeah. Titty baby. In terms of how surprised we were when it came out. We were just like, wait, why did she just say? You know, I think what it is.

We're going to write it up on a wall somewhere in the office. Sometimes the podcasting world, because podcasters speak a little bit more relaxed. That's what I like about your show, because you're having podcasters come on with pundits and with politicians. And so I think the reason your show is so successful is because it's mixing the totally people that really want to curate their content and stay on script. and a podcaster, I'm like, I think it was Kevin O'Leary. I'm like, why are you defending this man? He's such a titty baby wines all the time. And that's kind of really the way people talk.

So I think it's fun. I had never heard. It's a southern thing. Is that a southern thing? I had never heard that before. I mean, but then I was like, yes, it makes perfect sense. I mean, the phrase. But it was so absolutely hilarious, just the surprise that you just caught us all by surprise.

I actually wish that the show. were even more conversational, you know, because some people I have to really walk them through, you know, this is not going to be your standard television interview. Like, we are actually talking to one another. This is a conversation. It's not a, I'm going to give my little diatribe, and you give your diatribe, and we're just going to go back and forth talking past each other. And so a lot of people have to get used to that, the concept of talking to other people,

surprisingly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's, I think it's such a good show because it's interesting when we, we're all in the green room together. Yeah. Sometimes I wish I were in there with you guys just to see what's happening. We're all in there together. And then, you know, we're out. But, you know, it's everybody like in the green room, in the green room, you're kind of asshole buddies. You know, you're about to, you know, gear up to go sit down to lock against each other. But I think it's a, it's, I, like you, I wish that people would get a little bit more untethered to their scripts. Yeah.

Especially on the right. Like, it's okay to criticize dear leader. Like, it would actually be helpful if you criticize some of the insane things that he does. And I think that they would have more credibility as a messenger. I, I 100% agree. And the people who do that are the ones that I think do best on the show. They have the ability to be firm in their beliefs, MAGA beliefs, liberal beliefs, whatever it is. But they're actively thinking.

They're actively saying, oh, I don't really agree with that. I think that's a bad strategy. And you know what? The truth is the number of times, especially these days, it's not that hard to get Democrats to criticize Democrats. Right, right. These days, I mean, I can't get Democrats to defend Democrats these days. They're criticizing Chuck Schumer and, you know, Hakeem Jeffries all the time.

Yeah, I do that. Guilty. I mean, all the time. And on the right, there's so much more fear. Right. But I think the incentives are also a little different, too. It's not just the fear. It's that the adulation that you get from being a true believer is so intense that it's hard for people to walk away from that.

There is a lot of social pressure to just be on the team, be a solid member of the team, and never stray from the party line. And I think that's very intoxicating to a lot of people who come on our show because these clips really go far and wide. And I just wish people would have just a little bit more courage. Yeah. You know, just be a little brave. I feel like a lot of the guests that are, you know, Trump aligned, I feel like they are speaking on your show for an audience of one. Yeah.

Yeah. And everybody knows exactly why they're justifying or defending something that is indefensible or denounce. or denying something that we all objectively saw and heard with our eyes, denying that that existed because they know that it will upset this man, this titty baby, with this fragile ego. And it's that component feels somewhat regressive, like that we can't just call a spade a spade. So as you sit there, I told Abby the last time I saw her, she's so zen. And she's very powerful, but a quiet, powerful commanding presence at the table. do you ever like just have the desire just be like shut the fuck well listen i have actually i mean

i have had those moments that they don't always end up on tv but i mean look there are first all there are times when it is so annoying to me that i am clearly trying to stop the cacophony because no one at home can hear what's going on because everybody's talking at the same time and screaming at each other and i will have people look at me and see that i'm trying to shut them up and then look away and keep talking. Really? And I just want to be like, excuse me, hello, like slam my hands on the table. And then there was one time where there was a big fight that happened at the table.

And it was over some bullshit. I'll say it like that because it was honestly some, it was really, it was literally a misunderstanding. One person misheard the other person. And I had to just go to break while they were. screaming at each other. And in the break, I was like, guys, what the fuck? What is going on?

What are we doing here? You know, I'm all for us, you know, disagreeing. Yeah. Right? But let's actually disagree about real things, not about misunderstandings. And people just get so caught up and wanting to be the last person to speak and wanting to be the loudest person at the table. And they just forget that what are you even arguing about?

Yeah. And there is something weird in a way, okay, I said all that, but I also think that in a way, I don't mind that part of the show because I do, I don't mind people being all in. Right. And being emotional and being upset or being sad or being, whatever the emotions are. Because I think those are real things. And I think we need to be tethered in real things as opposed to in this fake, like, we're just going to sit here with our hands folded and talk to each other nice and polite when that's not the authentic emotion that's behind it. So it's right up to that line of let's be as real as we can.

But I also think, let's not fight over dumb stuff. Okay. Let's fight over. There are real issues at hand here. There are things that matter to people in their lives. I mean, people, we're talking about health care. We're talking about economics. We're talking about people's life savings, their businesses that they've spent their

whole lives creating that maybe might go away tomorrow because of terrorists. I mean, these are real things. Let's talk about those things. And let's not get caught up in silly fights about misunderstandings. And you just don't want to be the one to back down. Well, speaking of silly things, we do like to ask our guests what they've had it with. Just everyday grievances. So, Abby, what have you had it with?

I'm so tired today. and it's not I can't I really blame it on this but in the aggregate I'm tired of my daughter waking up at five in the morning and waltzing into the room just like mommy hi what's going on I had a dream I had a dream about rainbow dinosaurs and you know it's like that at five in the morning it doesn't matter what time you put a kid that age to bed they always pop up like a toaster right at 5 a.m they do our kids jot when they were little I thought let's put them to bed later. They still woke up at the same time. Oh, no. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I mean, she literally, you know, she will go to bed at nine and get up at five. And then she's just like bright as a daisy, just happy as a clam, and complete energy from sun up to sundown. I don't know where they get it from. I would like some of that, but I've, I've had it with that. Hello. Yeah, totally. You're a young mother. So I have a question. I've just, when we, when I was a new,

baby mom, you know, new kids. We had one book, what to expect the first year. That was it. So if there was some type of behavior or tantrum, you would just look it up and say, okay, yeah, that's developmentally normal. Now I feel like there's just this influx of mommy blogs and influence. There's mom talk. There's all these different things you have to do with a small shot of shit.

How do you feel about that? Is it hard? It's impossible. It is impossible. I mean, in a way, some of it is helpful because there are definitely some things that I'm like, what am I supposed to do when she does this? What am I supposed to do when she does that? And how do you not screw up your kid is really the thing that is the dominant thought when you're raising a child? How do I not, you know, torture this child and make them, you know, complain about their childhood trauma when they're older? But at the same time, I mean, I think for me, the hardest thing was around sleep for her. And I actually think, Sleep and food are the two things that moms are guilted about the most.

Do you let them sleep with you? Do you put them to bed too late? Do you let them cry? Do you, you know, all the things. And I think there's so much guilt that is associated with those things about how you balance their needs and your needs. And look, I'm a working mom. and I have a really busy job that requires all of my brain. And from a very early age, I was like, she cannot sleep with us at all.

Like, sometimes it would happen just because I just didn't have the energy to keep getting up, but I cannot sleep with this child in my bed. And I don't know. I mean, we put her in her own room when she was like a month old. Yeah. And it was better for her. she slept better, I slept better. And even when I had to get up and go in there and, you know, deal with it, it was better for me and better for her. And there were some mom friends of mine who

they had their kids in their room until they were like eight months old or they would, you know, co-sleep. And that's all fine, but I just, it just did not work for me. Yeah. And I had to figure out the sleep thing and it didn't really work, but I had to try something because I was like, I just, I can't get rest when she's in the bed, period. Yeah, I agree. And then I had, I was talking to some man, a very sweet guy, and I actually really appreciated this because he was like, oh, I love when my son comes into our bed because it's so sweet and he's so little. And I just thought to myself, I felt guilty because I was like, I should love this, but I don't. Yeah, right.

I do not like it at all. Yeah. I don't. I want to like it. I want it to feel like all cozy and cuddly. But honestly, she's kicking me in my solar plexes. Totally. I agree. Totally. I'm with you on that. I was like it feels so easy for like especially a guy to say, oh, it's so sweet. I love it. But like when you're a mom, they're like on you like a koala. They are. They're so hard. are. And what I think that the thing about young motherhood that was so hard for me to identify until after. And I realized, like, it's a very lonely thing. Even though you're with this other person that you love more than anything else, there's not a word in the English language that can describe how much you love. But it's an isolating, you've been removed from all society that you knew before and you're reduced to these shows and these puzzles and somebody. kicking you at night and there's a loneliness to it that's hard to articulate and when you said that like I wish I loved this part or I wish I loved that part that's the real mind fuck of motherhood because there's this burden that you think I have to be a 12 out of 10 on all of these

issues and I think that my advice to young mothers would be unsolicited advice find what works for you if you don't like doing puzzles with your child don't do them don't do them that's okay find what you're good at with your kids And that's what I did. But now I see I have these nephews and they're having kids now. And the pressure of like mom talk and then mommy groups, I thought it was bad when our kids were little. It's so intense right now. It's so intense.

And they're doing all this stuff. And, you know, my schedule, this show is, my show is at 10 o'clock at night. So I have this weird schedule where I'm exhausted in the morning and in the evening I'm working. And at 3 o'clock, you know, she gets home from school. That's pick up. And a lot of the other parents, not all of them, but a lot of the other parents are there and they hang out with the kids after school. And the times I do pick her up, which is not that often, because this is just not a thing I can do with my schedule. But when I do pick her up, I'm like, people are texting me and I've got things to respond to and I've got a meeting that I'm on.

And I'm just not, I'm not all the way there. And I wish I could be, but I'm just not. Yeah. And I've had to let go of some of those things and just, that's just not my ministry. I'm just, I'm not, I can't do that. But I'm on the weekends, I'm there. Like, we're going to bake pink delicious cupcakes together until the cows come home. And I can do that, but there are a lot of things that I cannot do.

And that isolation that you're talking about, so many, it's in these little moments because as a young, as a mother of a young child, it's all the little moments that, add up that nobody sees. That's right. Sometimes not even your spouse sees. And you're just like, because mommy is always like, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy. You know, it's a constant thing. And those tiny moments when you feel like nobody sees how much my energy is being drawn from.

Nobody sees how many things that I am trying to work out all the five different activities that they're doing in a week, all the play dates, all the moms that want to meet up, all the, the kids that are being mean to my kid and it's all on you and in your brain and and that is isolating this episode of i've had it is brought to you by booking dot com pumps i've got to say if you're looking to grow your vacation rental business this is the place to be booking dot com is one of the most downloaded travel apps in the entire world and for good reason since 2010 they've helped over 1.8 billion vacation rental guests find places to stay. That's billion with a B. But here's the thing. Most vacation rentals don't even realize they can list their properties on

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sculpt and tone arm cream bundle. You can also get 25% off of all other products by using code had it at gopure.com. So head to gopure.com and use code had it for this huge discount. And after you buy, do us a favor. When they ask you where you heard about GoPure. Tell them it was from our show. Again, that's gopure.com slash had it. I want to kind of shift gears. This is kind of related to you having a daughter, but it's the uptick of racism that I'm feeling and I'm a white woman. So I can't imagine how you're feeling it. And I always often think about you when these Republicans or MAGA supporters are sitting at your table. And they're talking about.

how horrific DEI was and demeaning Katanji Brown Jackson. And it always seems like black women are the first that always get beat up on by the electorate at large. And so you're a very successful black woman graduated from Harvard. And the language that they use to me, I perceive it as very dismissive of the accomplishments of a black woman because I know that those men couldn't survive in a meritocracy without their white skin and their daddy's bank account, because I know these type of guys. I know you're a million times smarter, had to work a million times harder. And now that there is this uptick, especially where I live, and I'm sure, you know, it's nationwide.

And you're raising a young black girl. Will you speak a little bit about what it's like sitting at the table as a person that went to Harvard, a very successful, fabulous black woman. And you hear this effort, both whispers and just right out loud, demeaning black women. And then you're raising a beautiful young black woman. And I just want to platform that fight in that space because it's something I care deeply about. Yeah. I mean, there's no question that there's a permission structure that's been created to demean people

because of the color of their skin. and using DEI as an excuse to do that by basically saying, well, the existence of affirmative action means that all of these people who have accomplished things are not qualified or didn't deserve it, got a leg up, and took a white person's job, literally is what they say. And that's just flat out wrong, right? It just doesn't, it's nonsensical, it doesn't make any sense. But also, if you've been in any of these spaces, as I have, when I went to Harvard, Harvard. I grew up just working class immigrant family. I went to public schools my entire life. And I got to Harvard and realized that 60% of the people I was around were people who

grew up rich, went to private schools, maybe their dads and moms were famous. And is that a meritocracy? Hello? It's very much not, right? You're exactly right. So all of the people who did not fall into those buckets, actually had to work their asses off to get there. And there were some people who obviously were born on third base. And that's the reality of the so-called meritocracy in this country and really around the world, is that it's always been the case that if you came from privilege, if your parents were wealthy, if you were white, you had a leg up on everybody else in this country. And in many cases, there is a lot of documented proof that that is still true. It's 100% true, Abby. I mean, it's not even, it's not a supposition. It's not academic

in the sense that it's a theory. You know, there have been lawsuits about, you know, banks that discriminate against people because they are black, you know, or because of the neighborhood that they live in or whatever it is. Or the realtors, have you heard about that? Or the realtors? They remove the signs. If it's a black couple that live there, if there's pictures, personal photographs, the realtor will remove the black couple, and then they notice the house will sell. 100%. Yeah. Or they'll get higher offers for the house, where it'll appraise for more because the value of the house is determined by the appraiser who works for the bank. And I mean, even down to people's names, I mean, I've always thought to myself that

especially early in my journalistic career when I worked in print and I was not on television. My name, Abby, sometimes people would get on the phone with me and, you know, they would have a whole conversation and maybe we would meet each other in person. And they would have no idea that I was a black woman. Right. Maybe it's because of the way I talked, but also because of my name. And that's actually a privilege that I had, that I could do my job early in my career because I was calling people on the phone. and they literally had no idea that I was a black woman until maybe they met me in person

or they saw me in the halls on Capitol Hill or at the White House or whatever. And it's sad that that helps. But it's true. And I do think that being on television, you can't, you know, I'm on TV. You know what I look like, right? I walk into a room. nobody mistakes me for anything other than I am. Right.

And I'm extremely proud of that. Right. But then you get the vitriol that comes from that. But at the same time, I mean, you talked about my daughter. I mean, first of all, raising a daughter in the world that I'm in right now, she is still always often the only one who looks like her. So instilling in her the confidence, first of all, the actual skills, right? She has to actually, she is smart, but she has to actually know her stuff. Right.

There is no universe in which a daughter of mine is not going to be just as prepared as everybody else because I know that she's going into a world that's going to assume that she's not. So we'll start there. And she has to be prepared and ready and smart. But then she also has to really understand and know intuitively in her bones that she is those things. And I tell her every day because at four years old, you wouldn't believe the fact that

there are kids right now at four years old that demean other kids and that say, oh, that's not pretty. Like, you don't know about that. And, you know, they kind of make other kids feel bad. And you have to teach kids at a really young age to buck up and to really understand their power and to really understand that they are smart, that they are worthy. And I think just the fact that she sees me operating. I am, the way that I do.

It's normal to her. She looks on the TV and she's like, oh, there's Mommy. Yeah. She's on TV. And I bring her to events and she's comfortable in her skin. And I'm really proud of that because I know, unfortunately, even we're in 2025 and 10 years from now, 15 years from now, I don't really think it's going to be all that different in the sense that I think she's still going to have to prove herself.

I agree with you. Because you would have thought, okay, we're 30 years from like the 80s, right? I mean, we'll talk about a book at some point. But this is when I'm as I'm talking about my book, I think about the fact that 30 years ago in the 80s, there was rampant racism in this country. Oh, yeah. Okay. And now in 2025, just go on X. There is rampant racism in this country.

People literally call me the N-word every single day. They call me a monkey every single day. Some of these people are maybe they're real, maybe they're not. But some of them are real people, and they're sitting in their basement just being racists. And that's not an indictment on any group of any large group of people. I'm just saying there are individuals. There are many people who are racist because I experience that racism on a daily basis. And it does not phase me, but I also know that it's not going to go away by the time my daughter is in her 20s.

So I'm going to prepare her for that world because it's unfortunate, but it's also human nature. It's part of who we are as a species. And I hope and pray that one day we're able to get past that, but we're not past it. No. You know, we, my, I grew up in the 80s. And I remember there was such an effort growing up to, for, us not to be racist. I remember that if I needed something from somebody, I'd be like, oh, is standing over next to that guy? And they're standing next to a black guy. And I would

be like, the guy in the green sweatshirt and I would just start to like clench. And I'm like a teenager because I felt like we couldn't say standing next to that black man. There was kind of like this. That was the area that I grew up in. And then my parents were very progressive, very anti-racist. I'm very fortunate to have grown up in the place that I grew up in that they were so progressive because that's not the norm. No. We grew up around a lot of racist. Still.

But now, since BLM and all of this, I love, I read a lot of books about this and about white fragility and just seeing somebody's blackness. And when white people say, oh, I don't see color. And I've heard that my whole life from the most racist people that I know. Oh, I never see color. But now I can say, oh, she's. standing right there next to that pretty black lady, that you can just say that about somebody's color. But now I feel like we've gone back. My husband is a criminal defense lawyer, and he had

some clients that had an issue with the school district. It wasn't really a crime, but the parents transferred their daughters who are black athletes from a school in Oklahoma City, inner city, to a rural town. And within the first two days of school, these are, these girls are getting D1 scholarships, incredible basketball players. Within the first 48 hours, I think they'd been called the N-word by all of their rural town friends at least 24 or 30 times. And that is, that didn't happen in the 80s. Like that didn't, I didn't hear that kind of, I knew that some people were racist, but not like that. I feel like there's such an uptick of it. And I feel like people like Angie and me are good allies and credible messengers to speak for and with the black community

that our lives are inherently better. Everybody's lives are better when we learn how to live comfortably and grow in multiculturalism. Yeah, yeah. Because white people stuff, all white people, Abby, I'm just going to tell you it's fucking boring. We don't have cookouts. We don't have any, we don't have any fucking thing like that. It is Lee Greenwald snooze fest. It's just all white culture.

I think, and I think that part of it, the segregation that still exists in this country is really at the heart of it. And it's everywhere. It's not just in rural America. I live in Manhattan. It's very segregated here. Really? Oh, yes. It's very segregated here.

I lived in D.C. It's pretty segregated there, too. American communities are divided along racial lines largely to a lesser degree socioeconomic lines. But that is still the way that most people live. So where we live, my daughter is, she goes, we go to the park in our neighborhood, eight out of ten times she's the only black kid in the park. There are dozens of kids running around. She's the only one. And so many kids are still growing up, never having been in close proximity to a person of color.

They don't even, so they don't know what to do. And we cannot pretend that children do not see difference. They do. Of course. Okay? They know long hair. They know short hair. They know dark skin.

They know light skin. They see it. But the question is, what do they do with that information? How do we teach them how to process that information in a healthy way? in a way that helps them understand that we are all human beings and that we can all live together and that the differences, the physical differences between us do not actually amount to all that much. And I don't think that we are doing a very good job of teaching children that. I think there's also an effort to do the exact opposite to pretend like that doesn't exist and that or also

So, I mean, frankly, I have spent a lot of time looking at, you know, partisan, what partisans are saying, what the far right saying, what the far right is saying, right? And what the far right talks about a lot when it comes to race is that we are different. They are dangerous. They are a threat to us as white people. That's actually a real thing that people say. No, it is. And I've been a little bit shocked.

want to overstate it because I've been covering politics for a long time, so I've seen a lot of things. But it is so sad to me that that is being said and those people are not being ostracized. I agree with that. We have worked so hard as a country to not believe those things. And I really believe that the vast majority of people in this country do not believe those things. Or they do not think that it is right to take a whole category of people and say they're bad, they're violent, they're stupid. The whole structure does that. And there are some people who are literally, they have millions of followers, they have huge followings. And this is what they preach. And the problem with our politics right now is that those types of voices are not being properly ostracized. I agree.

And we've got to get to a place where we talk to the real people in this country, the ones that are not racist and the ones that are not crazy and the ones that are not, you know, pushing us into the far corners of division. And I, the only reason I can get up every day and do this is because I really believe there are way more of those people around than not. See, I have felt that like there are more of us than them in a lot of ways. And I think with the Charlie Kirk murder, that's when I thought this racism, like Charlie Kirk, I hate that he was murdered.

I hate that he was, you know, all the terrible things that happened to him. But that does not change the fact that he was a racist and he was a misogynist. But yet in D.C., they're like, the state of Oklahoma was like, low. I mean, I know federally they did the flags, but we had a superintendent that wanted to put curriculum and talk about Charlie Kirk. I'm like, he was not a hero. I think what she's saying is there is where we live in Oklahoma, that racism that you said about they're different, they're dangerous, that is very real and that has never gone

anywhere. And it is mainly a part of white evangelical culture, which is different from black evangelical culture, which is about social justice and things. White evangelical culture, if you search it back or the origins or the KKK, and it's still very, very prevalent. Pumps has family members, but say those very things. And I agree with you. that a little bit of cancel culture needs to be retained for this type of racism because it is, it hurts all of us. It hurts everybody. And when I see you on CNN sometimes, and I hear people diminishing DEI, you know, some guy, and I'm knowing how much harder you had to work, how much smarter you are, you know, to get into Harvard. Here's a prime example. Like my sons, when they took the

ACT, how much is the ACT prep test? Okay, here's your check. Go take the ACT prep test. The black kids that played on Roman's AAU basketball team, did they get to do the ACT prep? No. Their parents couldn't afford it. I know that he is already getting affirmative action through my bank account. I know that. And I think that we have to have these conversations and normalize these conversations because what happened in the 80s where like either, you were a racist or you just weren't allowed to talk about race wasn't helpful either. Listener, the hot book of the summer, oops, I haven't the wrong way. Take two.

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Learn more at appritude.com or call 1-88-240-0340-340. Okay, listen up. a good slow burn romance and let's be real who doesn't you need to check out the new audible original of pride and prejudice it's an intimate performance that literally makes you feel like you're right there swooning with lizzie bennett and mr darcy marisa abella as elizabeth and harris dickinson as darcy i'm obsessed so whether it is your first time with jane austin or your 50th this version is such a fresh fun listen go to audible.ca slash jane austin to dive in? You know, I've been thinking a lot about this idea of cancel culture, right? And because

you just, when you brought that up, it kind of brought that to my mind. And I also think about the show that I do every night in which we affirmatively say, we want voices at the table that are truly diverse, where we can really understand the range of views that are, that exist in this country. So we, we, we. work really hard to make sure that there are actual MAGA voices at the table. That is important because I also think that we need to air it out. Let's put it on the table. Sometimes I think about the 80s and the quiet bigotry that existed at that time. And I do wonder, would we be better off if we just knew, if people just actually were up front about their views rather than

it's kind of like underneath the surface. Yeah, I don't see Keller. Yeah, just a little bit kind of like hidden. And, you know, so I think that there is something about that time where people had maybe racist views, but they didn't, they hit it. They didn't want people to know. And I don't know that it helps us to pretend like it's not happening. I think we should really understand what are the contours of our politics? What are we really talking about here? What do you really believe and what do I really believe? And let's air that out. So I think that there's a conversation that needs to actually happen. And when I say that there are, you know, these reprehensible views that I think should be on the far corners of our politics, what I really mean is that our leaders, the

people who actually run this place, this country, should have the guts to say, we don't believe those things. The tent is not open to those people. And I think that's true of the far right. There are elements of the far left that that is true of. And I don't know if that's really cancel culture so much as like leadership, which is to say we are going to, we're going to draw the boundaries of our movement. What do you do when the racists are in charge like they are now? You know, I mean, like Stephen Miller is a white supremacist. I mean, he is. And he's basically running the White House. They keep Trump busy with his decorating projects. He's got building the arch now. He's got his Oval Office design. And then you have these real sociopaths

that are real anti-Semites, true white supremacists like Stephen Miller. And even though he's Jewish, he's like a Nazi Jew. Well, look, I can't. I can't speak to what Stephen Miller's motivations are. I've met him. I've talked to him. I've interviewed him. How tall is he? Yeah, we're dying to know. Oh, God, I can't remember that. Short? I truly cannot remember him. I am short. So my understanding of people's height is not great. And, you know, I just, I do think that you have to understand what motivates the people who are in power. if people are in power, you got to understand what their ideology is, like truly understand what motivates them where they're going. And I do think that that is, that requires listening.

I mean, I listen to what the Steve Bannons of the world say, what the Steve, I listen very carefully to what Stephen Miller says, because it really tells you where this is all heading. And my only point is that we do need to hear those things. And I think there are a lot of people in the country that really never hear what is being said on the other side. And if you disagree with it, if you don't hear it and understand it and understand the motivations behind it, it's going to be really hard for you to figure out how to combat it. And then on the other side, on the right, on the right, there is also a similar lack of hearing. They don't hear a lot of what you believe. Right. They don't understand it. They don't. It just went.

When you're consuming media on the right, you really don't hear what people on the left are saying at all. And so there needs to be a space where people can actually hear each other. And we can hear the real thing, not the watered down version of it. And I do think that that is going to be uncomfortable for people to experience. That's why our show, it can be very uncomfortable for people because they're like, I can't believe this person is saying that. And I'm just saying, you better believe it because half the country. No, believes that.

One way or another, on the left or the right, half the country believes what these folks are saying. Believe it and listen to it and understand it. And also maybe there's a part of your mind that you might say, well, that little piece of what they're saying is not wrong. I disagree with everything else that they said. But that little piece of what they're saying is not wrong. And that little piece of what they're saying on the other side is not wrong. And I think that even if that happens like 10% of the time, I think that's actually more than what most people experience in their day-to-date consuming of information on the Internet

and on television. And I do think people get better when they have disagreements. Like when Jennifer and I disagree or we have different perspectives, I feel like I learn from her perspective and vice versa. Yeah, I do. I mean, I just feel like you get better when you hear everybody. perspective. And even if I disagree with somebody's perspective on the right, I agree with you that you have to understand where they're coming from because what we have right now is a phenomenon where you have

someone like Zoran Mamdani who is getting triple Trumpers to vote for him. A Democratic Socialist is getting people that voted for Trump three times to vote for him. Yeah. AOC's experience this. Graham Platner, the senatorial candidate in Maine. Well, so what is what's the connection between these Far-left Democratic Socialists in these Maga-Triple Trumpers. Affordability. Yeah. Economic interests. Yes.

You know, I think about that all the time because as I was writing this book about Jesse Jackson's campaigns, you know, this is not a shameless plug. It's just an actual connection here. I mean, he was running on economic, you know, interests that are shamed. between people of all of these different backgrounds. He called it the Rainbow Coalition, but it was a coalition of people who shared a common interest in economic prosperity, in bringing, you know, MAGA talks about America First.

He talked about, instead of spending money on foreign wars, let's spend that money at home. And I think that's fundamentally the basis on which, which those campaigns in 1984 and 1988 were run. And, you know, one of the things that people don't know that Jesse Jackson did was that he spent a lot of time with farmers. He was in Missouri and he was in Iowa and he was in, you know, rural parts, more rural parts of Michigan and other parts of the country in the south as well. On farms, on tractors, rallying with farmers. I remember that.

Talking to white people. There was, there's a part of the book where I mentioned that during the campaign, he went back to Selma, Alabama, to campaign. And there was a local white official who had been one of the state troopers who was on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, beating civil rights marchers. And he gave Jesse Jackson a key to the city and said, I was on the other side of, the Selma March all those years ago. But now I'm giving you the keys to the city. And look, I mean, that's the kind of thing. I mean, that a lot had changed between the 60s

when the civil rights movement was so deadly and so bloody and the 80s. But Jesse Jackson was going to white people and saying, we have more in common than we have that's different. And fundamentally, what we have in common. common is that the populism of it all was that the powers that be are not working for us. Government is working for big corporations. They're working for special interests and they're not working for you. And that's the kind of message that someone like Zoran Mamdani and Bernie Sanders and AOC are running on. And to an extent, Donald Trump ran on. And I think that's actually,

What I think is so interesting is that there is something there. Populism is not a new thing. Right. It's been around for a long time. But the way that it has manifested in our politics has gone the spectrum all the way from, you know, Jesse Jackson to Donald Trump. And that's because there is a yearning in the American populace in really a lot of places for people to feel heard, for people to feel listened to, for them to feel. like somebody is interested in the things that matter to them in terms of their survival and their families and how they make it through a day. And that's part of the lesson.

That's part of the lesson of this book. And also, you know, there's something in Jesse Jackson's story about talking across difference. Another scene that I talk about in the book, as he was running for president, I think this was in 1984, he went down to visit George Wallace, who famously said segregation now, segregation forever. Right. And George Wallace had been shot in an assassination attempt and was not in good shape. He was in a wheelchair. And Jesse Jackson went down there and visited him at his home and they sat on the porch and they, you know, drank tea and, you know, ate food. And they talked about running for president. And George Wallace talked about how he was an avid segregationist. And there he was sitting with Jesse Jackson, a civil rights leader,

and giving him advice on how to run for president. And I do sometimes think, I mean, could something like that happened today? Like, would we tolerate someone going and visiting a former segregationist and sitting with them in their home. And I think the reason, I don't know the reason why he did that, but I think one of the reasons that he did that was to basically say, we have to, you know, move forward as a country. And we have to do so by acknowledging what happened in the past, renouncing what happened in the past,

and holding hands together and walking hands together and walking. into the future. And I do think that that's kind of always been Jesse Jackson's message, which was like, I'm not going to say I'm not going to talk to you because you're a racist, but I'm going to tell you what we have in common and ask you to move past your prejudices and move forward together with me. And he's always been willing to do that in a way that I think rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, surprised a lot of people, maybe confused a lot of lot of people. But at the very least, it's interesting. I think there are some lessons in there about, you know, the ways in which he didn't just say this guy is irredeemable. I mean, you could

easily have said that George Wallace was irredeemable. But he went to his house and said, first of all, you're going to have me in my, in your home. I mean, I think that alone is a flex, right? Yeah, absolutely. To show up and just to say, you know, I'm there. But also to say that the future of the country is going to mean that we are going to help you move into the future where you abandon these reprehensible views. And black people have always had to do that. We've always had to help white people abandon their reprehensible views and walk into the future together. And Jesse Jackson has been that person. He did it in the 60s, in the 70s, and the 80s, and so on and so forth.

And I think a lot of people think of him, I mean, on the right, maybe even on the left, as this sort of like race hustler kind of figure that's always talking about race. But he wasn't talking about race to divide people. First of all, he was talking about race to say, you have political power, black people. You have the power to vote. You should use that power. But he was also saying, we're all in this together. That's what, it was a rainbow coalition.

Black people, white people, gay people. He was one of the first people, the first people to talk about gay people openly at a Democratic convention. It was about saying, we see who you are and we're going to all be in this together going forward into the future. That race hustler, I think that is a trope that a lot of white people use when black people make them feel uncomfortable. And I remember when he was running and lived in an all-white neighborhood, went to an all-white public school, Maybe I graduated with six, seven hundred people. Maybe there's three or four black kids when it's white as a upbringing as you can get. And I remember him running.

And I remember my parents kind of liking him. But I remember just the general vibe was the typical, oh, he's a crazy black person. That was the vibe. Because the color of his skin and because he spoke so openly about human rights, race, whatever he spoke about. The white default setting is to call him a race hustler and then be dismissive. And I remember that, and I was probably at, you know, 10 to 15 somewhere during that time period, but that was the default setting that the white culture that I grew up in where if a black person, no matter what they said, it was automatically dismissed. Demeemed. Yeah, yeah.

And that's one of the reasons, frankly, that I wrote this book. When I started going back through the clips and reading how he was talked about, It was so clear to me that even in the contemporaneous coverage of him as a candidate, people could never see past his blackness and also the fact that he was a part of the civil rights movement, which a lot of people still thought was a radical thing. And when people did show up at his rallies, and sometimes people would come just out of curiosity, they would come out of those rallies thinking, oh, he actually. is saying what I believe he's actually standing up for us. In today's world, you can only imagine somebody at the time

in the 1980s, he was so well known. He was so well known. I mean, very popular among the people who loved him. But even if you didn't love him, you knew who he was. National figure. He was a massive national figure. I mean, there are photos in the book of him with Don King and Donald Trump.

Yeah. Yeah. Donald Trump was everywhere. And Donald, you know, they were at a, you know, at a fight, you know, a boxing match together. I mean, these were the types of people. He was with Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson. I mean, he was one of the most famous people in America. And if that were transplanted to the 21st century with the internet, I can only imagine how this would have been a different story. Totally. A totally different story. Totally. And in many ways, I think that you. have Jesse Jackson that probably played a huge role in priming the electorate for having a black president and Barack Obama. In many, many ways. Bernie Sanders is priming the electorate to rid themselves of corporate interest and go back

to the people. He never won. Bernie Sanders never won, but they do important national work that helps move the pulse of the electorate. Okay, Abby, we have to play a quick lightning round, had it or hit it. Oh, my God. Welcome to had it or hit it I would hit it

I would hit it I hit it every day sometimes twice a day All right Had it or hit it generational warfare Had it Had it

The JNZ versus Millennials Yeah I'm sorry Like we were cool once too And I bet you guys feel that right Yeah I'm over it I was ever cool I was I was super cool

I mean I thought I was but I'm looking back I think I'm like listen listen Gen Z. You guys are also going to grow up one day and they're going to be making fun of you. That's right. Sorry. Right. It's coming. But I still think we're cool. Okay. Had it or hit it. Tick-Tock dances. Had it. I'm over it. I'm over. I'm sorry. I know. Like 2% of the time it's great. And then the rest of the time it's cringe for me. I know that that's controversial. But I just. I agree with you. If they're really good that I like it. I like it.

but when I see just the girl that's like in the grocery store aisle, I'm like, what are you doing? You cannot do TikTok dancing in the grocery store. Also, ma'am, this is a sidewalk. Right. People have to go places. Do not be recording your TikTok dance on a sidewalk. I'm sorry. Okay, had it or hit it at Harvard University.

I'm sorry, I put you in a pickle. Hit it. I think, can I just say one really quick thing? Yes. This is rapid fire. Yeah. Harvard University does an enormous amount to make sure that people who otherwise would not have the chance to graduate from college, graduate from college. I am one of those people.

They have incredibly generous financial aid. They do not let anybody not graduate because of an inability to pay. And I wish more universities, public and private. Many of the IVs, I think, do this, but I wish they would be more like Harvard in that respect. and do not let a failure to pay, prevent people from graduating. And people give Harvard such a bad rap, but they are so good about that. And I'm a graduate, so I am biased. But I do think that one of the biggest problems we have in this country is people going bankrupt, trying to get an education.

And we've got to stop that. So, anyway, end of rant. I like it. Last one. Last one, had it or hit it, the United States of America. Hit it. I am still here for this country. We are here.

We're going to be 250 years old. And we are going to be here, okay? I do think it's been worse than this. In the sense, in the global scheme of things. Are you kidding me? There's no question. We are going to get through this just like we've gotten through everything else. And the process of us getting through this is really just about,

how you decide what kind of American you want to be. Are you going to be one of those Americans that makes the country better, or are you going to be one of the Americans who gets us deeper into division? And I think that this is the moment for all of us to decide what part of the history we want to be in and write our own story and do the work. Do the work of making this a great country. We're on team better. Yeah. We're on team better. I'm on team America all day, every day. I think think that we have the fundamental capacity to be better in a way that is head and shoulders above every other country on this planet. I really do think so. It is the self-correcting

ability that we have that is what makes us different. And that's not an automatic thing. It's because there are people who live here who make that happen. And I think that that's going to continue to be the case. So yeah. I agree. I hit it. Abby, I hit it. Abby, I love having you on. I cannot I don't wait to read your book because he was such a part of the political landscape growing up. It's always a pleasure to see you. You will learn a lot, I think. And listen, it's the good, the bad, and the ugly. Like, he's a real person, right?

And I don't believe in telling sugar-coded stories. I tell the real deal. And I think you'll learn a lot about him as a person and about us as a country. And it'll be interesting to you, even if you lived through it, which many people did. So I'm excited. Yeah. Thanks, Abby. I'll see you soon.

Great to see you. And then, listener, we'll see you next Tuesday and Thursday. Yeah. Okay. Bye. I'll tell you what I've had it with. Let's hear it. I've had it with that.

Listen up, Patriots, Gaitriots, and Natriots. We have a new podcast that has dropped. It's called IHIP News. It's Monday through Friday every day, 15 to 20-minute hot takes on the political landscape of the United States of America, always served with a side of. petty grievances. We are on all the available platforms, Apple, Spotify, Google, whatever you get your podcast and YouTube. Please go rate, subscribe, and reviews so that we will chart upwards with America's greatest legal mind, pumps. Pumps, what does an eagle say? Cicaw! A little bit more enthusiasm. Caca! That's it. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

that's the patriotism that this country means right there. Thank you.