Jack - A Higher Loyalty (Pt. 5)

Episode Date: May 30, 2018

BOOK CLUB - On this week's free MSW Book Club episode, we break down chapter 7 of James Comey's "A Higher Loyalty." Enjoy! 

Hi, I'm Harry Lickman, host of Talking Feds. Around table, the brings together prominent figures from government law and journalism for a dynamic discussion of the most important topics of the day. Each Monday, I'm joined by a slate of Feds favorites at new voices to break down the headlines and give the insider's view of what's going on in Washington and beyond. Plus, sidebar is explaining important legal concepts read by your favorite celebrities. Find talking feds wherever you get your podcasts. The world is pretty crazy right now, and separating out the noise from the news can be pretty

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our entire archive of bonus episodes, ad-free content, our weekly newsletter, and all kinds of great thank-you gifts. We can express how grateful we are to be able to bring you all the pertinent news each week, so thank you for making all this possible. This podcast contains laughter. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, So to be clear, Mr. Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs. That's what he said.

That's what I said. That's obviously what the opposition is. I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign and I didn't have not have communications with the Russians. What do I have to get involved with Putin for? I have nothing to do with Putin. I've never spoken to him.

I don't know anything about a mother than he will respect me. Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. So, it is political. You're a communist. No, Mr. Green. Communism is just a red hairing. Like all members of the oldest profession, I'm a capitalist. CLAPPING

Hello. Welcome to Muller She Wrote. This is the MSW Book Club. We're reviewing A Higher Loyalty by James Comey. And today we're going to be covering Chapter 7. I'm your anonymous host, A.G. I work for the federal government, so I have to kind of keep a low profile. And also I don't want to violate the hatch act. With me as always is Julie's a Johnson. Hello. And Jordan Coburn. Hello. Hello. Today's chapter is called Confirmation

Bias. And who's got the first part here? That's me. All right, right on. Well, let's hit it. All right. So confirmation bias. In April 2004, when Goldsmith was still trying to get the stellar wind program sorted out, gross photos from Abu Ghraib leaked. Iraqi detainees were being put into humiliating photos, angry dogs were being sicked on handcuffs prisoners, and there was just pure torture happening. So the images took a huge toll on Bush's reelection, and with the entire civilized world condemning the actions of the US government in Abu Ghraib, the CIA became concerned about a program of their own. So the US was guilty of beating, starving, humiliating, and nearly drowning captives in 2002 at Black sites outside of US territory.

So the CIA turned to the DOJ for legality purposes, basically they wanted something legal to justify their actions. And in June 2004, two months after Abu Ghraib, Goldsmith came to come to share his findings on their interrogation program. He spotted problems six months earlier and told the IAC that they couldn't rely on their interrogation program. He spotted problems six months earlier and told the IEC that they couldn't rely on their earlier legal work. But now that stellar one was fixed,

he completed his legal work and knew the Justice Department's explanations couldn't stand. Can I ask question really quick? Absolutely. I see intelligence community, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

The 12 or so programs. 17 or four biggies. Yeah, yeah. Organizations just clarifying for the listeners. Absolutely. Yeah. So as with Stellarwin, the legal basis for the earlier interrogation program was super flawed. He believed the agency was going beyond even what the flawed opinions allowed. It was just another big mess. And with Abu Ghraib, it was all over the media. So this led to another battle in the Bush administration between a secret policy agenda and the rule of law.

Okay, so when they say another battle, I think the initial battle they're talking about is what we covered in the last chapters about the CIA and Hanson Terragation techniques. Exactly. And I'm having to try to write legal opinions based on those and feeling like they could and so that's when they ran over to Ashcroft's hospital bed. Yeah, okay, so I just wanted to throw that in there. Oh, definitely. For a continuance.

I appreciate that. So in 1994, Congress decided to define torture differently from how most of us see it. They defined it as the intentional inflection of severe mental or physical pain or suffering, which left a lot up to interpretation. So like confining someone in a coffin box or chaining someone to the ceiling without sleep for weeks, those are obviously torturous things to do, but the way that Congress chose to define it by saying that the pain must be severe left doors open for judges to say those kinds of activities are not torture. That's like trying to find the legal basis

and description for something that's lured or yeah. Yeah, or you know, indecent. I forget what's supposed to fucking word again. It's like it has to follow, no, it has to follow. Yeah, for something that's not, yeah, I think it's lured. Yeah, indecent indecent. Oh yeah, I mean, that's like, does waterboard severely hurt you?

No. Will it fuck you up for life? Yes. Yeah, definitely. So in 2002, after 9-11, the CIA wanted to use physical tactics to chorus prisoners to give up other terrorist leaders, reveal plots, and maybe even save lives. So the CIA asked legal counsel if things like cramped

confinement, sleep deprivation, simulated drowning and water boring. Water boring. Oh god. It's very interesting that last week they described it. Yeah, man, that was boring. Yeah. Water boring would violate the law.

They didn't ask if it was a good idea or not. They wanted to know if it was legal. As with stellar wind, the DOJ was asked to make these decisions in times of crisis, when they could be blamed for future terrorist events if they didn't react strongly. The DOJ lawyers were assured by the CIA and the White House that physical abuse of al-Qaeda leaders

were not only effective but essential to save countless lives. Yeah, under that pressure, the same lawyer who did the legal work for stellar wind prepared a legal option on the torture subject defining it very broadly. He also wrote a separate opinion saying that the CIA tactics used on Abu Zabada, yes, did not constitute torture under the law, Abu Zabada was their first subject. So the CIA was clear to use whatever they wanted on Sabbada from slapping him to keeping him awake and waterboarding.

By 2003, when Goldsmith became the head of the office and Komi became the deputy attorney general, the CIA had already relied on that legal advice to aggressively interrogate subjects at various black sites outside the US. Komi was not looking forward to another ugly fight against the same forces in the White House. The fight over stellar win was so stressful, it was a stressful time for Komi and his family. He thought he was going to lose his job, and he and Patrice were not in a good place financially as the parents of five kids as some were approaching college age.

So Komi agreed with Goldsmith though, and that the legal opinion about torture was simply wrong. So, he met with Ashcroft and said he wanted to withdraw the DOJ's early opinion on these matters and Ashcroft agreed. They both recognized they'd leave some CIA personnel exposed in a sense because they'd done some illegal things relying on the legality of the old opinion. You know who comes to mind for me is Gina Haspel. Oh who's that? She's now the head of CIA. Yeah.

She's got a lot of pushback because of her roles in torture. Wow. And a lot of people were like, well, she was following orders. And a lot of people were like, you don't follow those orders. Yeah. Like, homie took a stand for the most part. But the main part was that she was unable to say for whatever reason during her confirmation hearings that what they

were doing was immoral. She wouldn't say that. And that bothered a lot of people. Yeah, because then she'd have to be admitting she was acting immorally in the past. Exactly. And yeah, that would have that would open a door there for Democrats to say. So you acted immorally. Even though you knew yeah, it was immoral. And I think Comey is one of the few people that are emitting that. He's like, look, I did some things that I stand by and others that I could have done differently, but he's like, well, no, he never used enhanced interrogation techniques. Right.

And this one, he took a hard stance, but just that just made it in a year. Yeah, I think it's better to admit that flaw than to just like deny it. Yeah, even if it hurts you, it's still better to have that public opinion of honesty. So yeah, even though they had a right to rely on the old opinion and had acted based on bad advice from the Justice Department and knew that it couldn't continue. So an opinion had to be written that was legally sound and firmly grounded in the facts. And that's part one. Excellent.

Thank you so much. Absolutely. And it was interesting and I'm not sure because he doesn't specifically mention Gina Haspel. I don't know that she was At the point that he wrote this book that she was being considered but a very similar situation there almost identical But now oddly after this book comes out she's up for for direct CIA director and all of these things about and I think go later on in the chapter It talks about destroying evidence Which she was complicit in, she did. So it's like kind of, it's very relevant and I'm pointing a finger a little bit.

Yeah, he spent a lot of time on it is interesting. It is. Good point. All right, so Jordan, you're going to hit part two of this chapter seven, yeah. Yeah, so just continuing on, it's not the role of the Department of Justice to judge the value of this program for our country. It's their job to evaluate it. And then as appointed officials of an elected president to give them their opinion, their

legal opinion on it, and then let the powers do what they're going to do with it, which is unfortunate because those are usually the people that fuck up. Oh, yeah. So the FBI had concluded long ago that coercive interrogations were not effective. It's they're getting misinformation. They'll just get people that say shit just because if they speak, then the torture stops sometimes. It's not like there's any way for them to verify if the information they're giving them

is correct. Exactly. If especially if they're looking for something they don't already know. So the information, it's more or less useless. The FBI over decades developed rapport with the prisoners instead building upon interrogation techniques and forming a trusting relationship with them. And they find that that is significantly more effective than any sort of physical or mental coercion. You can try to force upon somebody. The FBI succeeded time after time and getting life saving until from mobsters, terrorists, and criminals added history of this. As a result,

Komi and Goldsmith were both very skeptical about the CIA's assertions that their torture program worked. It strikes Komi as a kind of ship pushed by chicken hawks and administration officials who'd seen a lot of movies, but it never actually been in the storm. So they said they're in, they think that their stuff's gonna work and then are completely inflating the results of torture. And I think you based a lot of his arguments on it with Ashcroft on that or at least with Gutierrez and Addington that we actually have evidence-based information stating that these rapport building and relationship techniques work work. I don't know that you have, the CIA has any evidence that your coercion tactics work,

but they would say, oh, it works, they would say it. And so without that proof, without that evidence, you know, Komi just didn't feel comfortable. That and it's just completely immoral writing these legal opinions to back them up. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. A lot of times these government agencies cannot go forward unless they have a supporting legal opinion. They just can't. And that's part of one of the checks and balances, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, they're both in the executive branch, but still it's like you know what to check in your own own Balance check your own balance

Yeah balancing your own hashtag check your own balance. Yeah, that's a good point the issue for them was that they'd already been on record saying that It was effective and it was okay, and now they had to reverse it and so at that point It's like well now you have to overturn legal basis that your own entity already set right Yeah Well, now you have to overturn legal basis that your own entity already set. Right. What other wind? Yeah. Steader wind. So CIA leadership and the powerful administration officials who back them up, they like that were like Dick Cheney had a really disturbing point of view.

They were driven by one of the most powerful and disconcerting forces in human nature, the title of this chapter, confirmation bias. So for those of you that have heard this but maybe aren't exactly aware of what it is. Basically, confirmation bias can be explained by this. Our brains have evolved essentially to crave information that's consistent with what we already believe. So we seek out and we focus on facts and arguments that support our beliefs. We may not even consciously perceive facts that challenge us. And in a complex and changing world,

our confirmation bias makes it very difficult for us to just be rational people, honestly. Totally. We simply can't change our minds. It's almost, we talk about this a lot in this podcast, actually. We do talk about confirmation bias a lot. And we're always pretty one-sided about it, why Trump supporters continue to support Trump. But we've broken some stories that don't jive with what we want the end result to be. And while it's hard for us to do that, when

we get these reports and details that, you know, aren't fucking Alex Jones, Tinfoil Hat, BS stories, but like legit reporting from what I consider to be credible sources like the intercept or whatever. I have to tell you about it, and I have to tell myself about it, because if we ignore it, again, this we're just following kind of victim to this kind of confirmation bias,

and I don't want that to happen. Right. It's important to check ourselves totally. Yeah. Yeah. Like with the Schneiderman thing, it's very tempting to fall into the narrative of, oh, how convenient that you have, you know, women that have gone straight to Cohen,

they didn't even go to the police. And it's a resulting in Schneiderman leaving when he was the state equivalent of Mueller, basically. And you can't, though, because these are women that are going forward saying they're salty, you just can't, but the confirmation, it's like a dual confirmation bias almost. One that's loyal to you.

But I feel like the difference is, I'd rather err on the side of being a good person. Absolutely. Then err on the side of separating children from immigrant mothers, or err on the side of hurting other people or air on the side of ballooning the deficit or air on the side of enriching my friends. And that's where people who try to make an equivalency between a moral equivalency between

the two parties is where I have to put my hand up and say no. Apple store. One party, if they're wrong, was at least trying to help people. Yeah. For the other party, if they're wrong, was trying to hurt people. Intentions matter. Totally. And that's why I have a weirdness with moral relativity.

Exactly. Because I'm like, didn't know. Intentions make a difference, yeah. You are doing bad things, and they're clearly bad. I love that. I would never consider that, that it's the intentions that make the difference in morality. So if I'm wrong about this AG Schneiderman thing, I stood up for women. If Trump's wrong about, or if a Trump supporter is wrong about Trump's tax cuts, they try

to hurt. We have a $1,000,000 deficit. Exactly. Great point. Yeah, I definitely think at a crossroads, I'm always gonna go with the explanation or with the action That's gonna support people that have been systemically, you know a franchise. Yeah, so in the Schneider-McCase it's women Yeah, and I mean ice I've never even thought of falling on the other side But with ice it's children and undocumented people it's just yeah, I think I think I'm gonna call it airing on the side of humanity right

Wow, I know which seems and this is why our publicans get pissed off right because they say that Democrats are like moral Superior or if superior is Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like they practice being superior. It's like when a celebrity makes a charity in their name like They made a charity. Why is that a problem? Just because they want attention. And I don't want kids to be ripped away from their mothers. I don't want people to have healthcare. I'm airing on the side of giving people healthcare.

And someone's arguing with me and I'm like, bro, I want your family to have free healthcare. I want your children to be healthy. And I want you to be healthy. And I want you to be happy and live your life for the fullest. To me, to the fullest. Even if you run around seeking high, seeking high and being a racist asshole, I want you

to be a healthy racist asshole. Right. And have the right to even do that too. So who's on the wrong side and who's on the right side. I just know I'm on the side that would rather, I would rather err on the side of humanity. I love that. Wow. Yeah, I was talking to my little sister. She's 16. She was

talking, she's, you know, we grew up in a very liberal family. So we were all very politicized. Actually, that's not true. On my mom's side, they're fucking idiots sometimes. They're like like blend bag watching, O'Reilly loving just, you know, super conservative people. But for more or less, me and my little sister, Jackie, are very liberal. And she's getting frustrated with how a lot of the time she's seeing CNN even write sort of click-bady titles that are so obviously leaning towards the media bias that they get. And it's pissing off because it's like you're reporting facts. You don't have to put a spin on it. That makes it easier for the other side of the story

that we covered in the bonus episode, 17 intelligence agencies agree. Right. No. They were ahead of the four agreed. The other 17 didn't disagree. And for me, they really had nothing to do with it. Yeah, and it's like, can we not need to do that?

Yeah, you could just say CIFBI and I say agree. Yeah, right. That's big enough. For sure. You're right about it being unnecessary. I think also clickbait in this political sense help them gather people that aren't necessarily political nerds and they would be like, oh, this is an interesting article. It's my attention.

I know it's not the most decent, sincere form. Yeah, but I'd rather instead of you aggrandize it or exaggerate it, maybe just put it into similar terms. Yes, yeah. Yeah, laymen in order to get the laymen in- There you go. The political junkies.

There's no reason to say, I mean, you don't, you can say four intelligence agencies agree. You're right, that was straight up wrong. Yeah, when they said 17, yeah. But yeah, there is definitely a problem where the news isn't, the correct news isn't getting out agencies agree. You're right. That was straight up wrong. Yeah. And when they said 17, yeah. But yeah, there is definitely a problem where the news isn't, the correct news isn't getting out. And in the fact that 51 to 59% of Americans don't know that any criminal criminality has been

discovered in the Mueller investigation. And you know, we're over here and I can tell you 89, 22, 17, like I can tell you exactly impressions. How many people and what their names are and who's in prison already totally But you have to be invested because the mainstream media is not digging deep. They're too busy being superficial like you guys are saying Well, and like Robby has said on our call this week. There's a certain amount of fatigue People are getting tired and and while we may have had a two-year Attention span in the 70s for watergate. We don't have that anymore

We certainly don't and that doesn't it's not't. And that doesn't, it's not wrong. No, we don't. We don't. We just take in data at higher volumes and release it at higher volumes. It doesn't, it doesn't mean we're worse people. Right. It just means we're programmed differently now because the amount of data that we receive on a daily basis.

Totally. So, yeah, we just have to definitely keep our eyes open for that confirmation bias. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, to bring it full circle, it's like what we were talking about is the confirmation bias that they're essentially in acting when they do post articles that are possibly overreaching things, like the school shooting statistics, for example,

they count things at school shootings where people read it and they think it's mass shootings or something, and then it's like, I can't even start talking about it. Any sort of violence like that. And mass shootings have a specific definition. Right. A book, a book, a discordor.

Right, and I better consent better. All kinds of things I think we don't define well enough. And I think that the issue becomes, if we are more, if these are moral arguments and they're based in, you know, morality, you don't need to grandize them because you're fundamentally right. You can just report on the facts and feel good about those and operate on that so that we

don't have, you know, other people that are able to put it in our face that we're just doing. Morality and fact. Morality and fact as always been a weird thing to me, but now it makes sense in this context. I'm like, yeah, you're right. It is factual. And you have to decide what's a fact like from your own like just sanity and so in this case

Yeah, I think morality can be a matter of fact, but yeah, I used to think it was only opinion I used to be like oh with immorality is whatever you think it is if you like murdering it's good to you exactly Exactly onto what you were saying. I had a point. What was it? It was perhaps about It was perhaps about the school shootings and fundamentally being sort of if we're right and can roll out. Here's where I have where we that can become a problem. Being soft, putting out facts, not a grandizing. When you're running against a party, who does that and does it well?

And maybe has the Russian backup and the UAE backup and the Saudi backup. They're going to beat you. So there are situations where I think it's necessary for Democrats or people on the left or progressives, more so Democrat-Centers Democrats to grow a backbone and stop trying to be, no more Mr. Nice guy basically.ball. Yeah, it's just hard to scream goodness and normalcy at people. Right. That's true. You know, be reasonable has never really been a battle cry for anybody. It's a funny thing. Even though that's what conservatives love to say is the foundation of

their opinions. Yeah. They're over here coming up with terms like Spygate and which hunt. It sounds fun. And it grabs you. And that's what makes, it fascism. 45, a master marketer. It's what made Hitler a master marketer.

Oh, totally. But we have to also get in that game as well. But for news organizations, I'm 100% with you. Yeah. And luckily we're on the outside of that. But yeah, so we're going to have to have our cable news networks that are for that kind of a grandisement, really start marketing the Democratic message or at least a progressive message however you want to tag yourself, the not Republican message. And not Gary Johnson.

So that it's, it does have to be clickbait. It does have to be marketing and it does have to be a grand honest. Yeah, right. If you're doing it for the right reasons, yeah, totally. It's just generally a limit. The fact that that's what our society has come to, but yeah, you're right. You kind of got to get in the state of it at this point.

Yeah. Yeah. So just to bring it back, confirmation bias, we basically can't change our minds. There's more to it than biology also. There's just the politics of it. Wherever there's doubt, it's derided as a weakness, right? So we kind of were talking about this during your segment just now, Jolisa, if someone,

if leaders feel a super big pressure to be certain and everything that they do, everything that they say should be 100% supported by, you know, yeah, line support really. Yeah. And in a healthy organization though, doubt's not a weakness, Comey saying it's wisdom. There's a quote in the book, it says, people are most dangerous when they're sure their cause is just and their facts are right. And I agree, because that's when confirmation bias isn't a full effect. Yeah, like the more you know, the more you know, you don't know stuff like that.

I do like Y's P in the opposite of the opposite. Oh, yeah, like they're not willing to let anything in that they would consider them to be not knowing. Like maybe people who say that's conjecture, but I'm right. Somebody like that, maybe. It might be. It's a nice question for us. That's true. I'm sure we yeah we

confirmation bias is fucked but we do a really good job. I think I'm reflect on it. You think Alex Jones is ever like wait, am I being too biased right now? Just gay frogs. You have to deal with that's how I was born. I'm not a gay frog. I'm a gay lizard. Oh God. Okay. So our modern culture makes it incredibly hard for leaders to express any sort of humanity or doubt. Yeah. Exactly. Admitting doubt or error is career suicide now. Essentially. It really is. It's crazy. Yeah. There's a quote in the book here. It says, imagine supporting a leader who, as he finished his time at the helm told us the told us he thought he didn't do anything intentionally wrong.

He was sure that he had made many mistakes and prayed that his mistakes didn't hurt people and hoped we would forgive and forget the times that he was incompetent. That weekly would have been run out of town on a rail. Yeah, yeah, especially saying it like that would be terrible. Yeah, but do you know who said it? Oh, no, I don't. It was George Washington. Yeah. That was his farewell to the country in 1790.

Wow. See, he chose the last minute to say it because he knew that they didn't want to hear it. No, it began. No, but the reason he was able to say that, maybe I'm just respectfully disagreeing with you, is that we didn't have that confirmation bias problem back then. Back then, leaders were allowed to express doubt and weakness and seemed wiser and doing so. Right.

Not in today's society where if you're not 100% right, 100% of the time is weak. Always winning and fire and fury of the likes in which the world has never seen. And that's why he speaks in these tones of, absolutely. The like of which has never been seen. Like he says, that's so much. The better, extreme, the best, the greatest of all time.

The likes of the world has never seen. And that's the opposite of what you used to be. I hope the organization and good leader and somebody who has wisdom and doubt, like George Washington. You're totally right. I agree. And I also think it's that he was on his way out.

I think it's both. I think he knew because he was leaving. He was also just known to be morally super sound, I guess. I guess. Yeah. It was a different time for sure. Yeah. More and more so than leaders now.

I know. Yeah. Because the point of that was if Trump said that at the end of his presidency, he would be run out of town on a rail. It would actually be really cool to hear him say, like, I'm sorry. He would have never. He would never. But yeah, I think that would be like

a kind of strength for him, which is what I was trying to strength for any leaders. Yeah, I remember learning about one Clinton apologized for how he handled Rwanda. And that was the first time I think I'd ever actually seen a politician literally apologize for a decision they made. They need to, I mean to act like they're not making mistakes in their terms ridiculous.

Yeah, but you won't win. You won't. That's so sad. It's our fault too for not letting them be human. Yes. I agree completely. 100% and it's a lot of it rests on the shoulders of confirmation bias. Yeah.

In the Bush administration, Cheney, Addington and others decided that enhanced interrogation was what worked, and they were gonna stick to it. Like we just talked about, they can't waver, no doubt, that's just their message. They simply could not accept the evidence that contradicted their beliefs. So they see it as people standing in the way of allowing these activities were needlessly putting lives

at risk. They're going forward with this message that these practices are essential to saving lives. Right. I think they they tried to guilt trick comey on that too. You're risking thousands of lives. Yeah. With your bullshit. Yeah. Morality. Yep. Yeah. That's not exact quote. That's I'm paraphrasing. Yeah. Um, the US Department of Justice, they had made mistakes in advising the administration on surveillance and interrogation. That's just a fact, come and say, they made mistakes on it.

If the Department of Justice was going to be of use to the United States and the President, they just had to fix their errors. That's why they exist. To do otherwise would mean the Department of Justice had become just another member of the partisan tribe. So they need to basically willing to say what needed to be said to help our side. Okay.

The administration of justice must be even handed, Komi says throughout this entire book. Justice wears a blindfold. She's not supposed to be able to peek out to see how her political master wants her to weigh a matter. Wow. Political master gives me the chills. Yeah. And just thinking about like Lady Joseph

is having a political master, it's like, who would that be? Mm-hmm. I'm guessing it's like not supposed to exist, right? That's the idea. The law. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's her political master.

There you just have a political master. Right. She has ideas. The law is her master. And that's like kind of, I think, over and over again, what Kobe's trying to drive home in this book. Mm-hmm. Like, shut up. Like, no one is her boss, you know, like, what Kobe's trying to drive home in this book. Like, shut up.

Like, no one is her boss, you know, like, unless it's the law. Yeah. Yeah, she doesn't serve at the pleasure of the president. Right. But Trump thinks he's the law, so there's that. Yeah, and I think Komi has a great part in this chapter where I really encourage you all to get the book seriously, so you can just read all these amazing things. Oh yeah.

Komi does, but I'm freaking my son is opening up the book seriously so you can just read all these amazing things. He's an income he does, but I'm freaking if my son is opening up the book. But he describes the relationship of the Department of Justice in the political world as turbulent waters where it's where turbulent waters and the placid waters of the A political meat. And the Department of Justice essentially is at that point where this serenity is meeting this chaos, basically. And he says that their job is to respond to the political imperatives of the president and the voters who elected him while also protecting the apolitical work of the thousands

of agents, prosecutors, and staff who make up the bulk of the institution. So long as the leaders understand the turbulence, they can find their footing. And then I really like this quote. It's independent role. It's being the Department of Justice. It's independent role in American life has been lost and the guardians of justice have drowned. Oh, yeah.

Chills when I read it. And water boarded. Yeah, the systematic chipping away of faith in the justice system perpetrated by the president. And it's been a long time coming. I think Chris Clue mentioned how like the fall of an empire. So to speak in our last episode it like takes a couple hundred years. And so now we're at a point where I feel like all of this is just kind of pointing towards if we don't do something dramatic we're kind of

into client as a country. We go the way of Rome. Yeah, totally. Oh God. something dramatic, we're kinda into client-ass as a country. We go the way of Rome. Yeah, totally. Oh God. Oh my God. And he mentioned several of the Asian dentists. Yeah, all the Asian dentists. But yeah, 400 to 500 years is the math.

And we're halfway through it. And it's showing that we're in the last half. It was going strong. They are. You know what, I feel maybe we could follow Europe's. I'm gonna need a health care. We can change our fate. Yeah, I don't feel like a doctor.

It's like chill out. We can get a doctor. Yeah, have an apple. It's true if you don't have a mental health health. You fucking go crazy. Yeah, just try. Yeah, like the mad driver. The mad driver resources exactly.

Canada would all live us or chill as well. Yeah, if politics is who gets what, when, and how? Oh, that is what politics is. My government teacher in high school first. It's a very good definition. It's very helpful. So yeah, it's a mad grab if you don't have a good system. Mm-hmm.

So sorry, I'm gonna finish up this channel. That's great. Go ahead, thank you for letting us digress into conversation. So one evening in spring of 2004, Patrice, Comey's wife, looks at him. And she knew that something was weighing him down. She'd seen all the media coverage

about the treatment of captives. And she said to him that torture is wrong, don't be the torture guy. Comey says, what, you know, I can't talk about that stuff. I don't want to talk about it. She says, just don't be the torture guy. I love it. She's the best. That's what that's a wife you want. She's about us. Yeah. She's a total badass. The prospect of being the torture guy kept coming up at night. Naked men defecating in their diapers, unchained. They were, yeah, only unchained to be abused and convinced that they were drowning, only to be re-chained and to just continually be abused.

That's insane for anyone. That's insane. Because how do you look at someone even that like has committed such crimes and you still decide Day after day to be like them like that sucks. Yeah, it's awful in June 2004 Goldsmith formerly with draws to legal opinions that had supported the 2002 interrogation nice addington was of course furious Adam eating that Komi was not at addington pulled out a card that Comey was not at, adding to in, pulled out a card that included all the classified opinions written since 9-11 and sarcastically asked Goldsmith

to ask the Justice Department which ones they still stood by. This is like a classic cross-examination tactic to just like list out all your consistencies and try to fluster the other person. It's a fucking big deal. Like what's your real problem with this? Yeah, it's... I wonder, um, too, and I'm sorry to interrupt when Komi was talking about being the torture guy keep it keeping him up at night and thinking about all the abused prisoners if we ever thought about the Milgram experiment and he didn't mention this in the book but do you guys know the Milgram experiment? Milgram idea because it applies a lot to particularly Abu Ghraib and why people go along with torturous

things without feeling like they're being morally compromised. Basically, the Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures, it was a series of social psychological experiments at Yale University by Stanley Milgram, that measured the willingness of student participants, men from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts that conflicted with their personal conscious.

They were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment in which they had to administer electric shocks to a person, but they were fake electric shocks, but they would gradually increase to levels that would have been fatal. Had they been real and they could hear the screams of the person they were shocking yet they continued to do it. And they were fake screams?

Yeah. Okay. There's like actors being like, that's incredible. So just the psychological aspect alone made them willing to do it. Yeah. Apparently a very high proportion of men would fully obey the instructions, albeit reluctantly, but this was all back in the 60s. Yeah.

And I know Mueller is of that time, and I know Comey is maybe a little bit younger but of that time. And so I'm wondering how much they thought about the Milgram experiments and how much we can blame people for going along with authority figures when we're psychologically predisposed to do so. When you don't think you have a choice, or when you're simply a conduit, you view yourself as a conduit instead of the initiating actor. Exactly. It's way easier to be like, okay, And then they think these people are criminals anyway or something.

And that's why his Department of Justice opinions weighed so heavily on him and were so important to him is because if he gives somebody permission, they are no longer responsible for, I mean, they are responsible for their actions, but they can feel like they're not anymore. They're more likely to go along with these kind of abuses and stuff that had happened particularly in Abu Ghraib. And while that experiment, the Milgram experiment was on men, there were several women in Abu Ghraib who were found to be participating in this awful, horrible torture. And I'm waiting on psychological profiles and experiments, or at least some qualitative studies on Why they did that yeah, because I know they didn't want to yeah, but they did it and they were smiling while they did it

Oh, it's scary. You don't think they wanted to you. You think they were brain-lost or something like that? Well, there's a psychological predisposition to when you're allowed by authority figures or told by authority figures and allowed by the law to do something You do it. And you smile, damn. Well, yeah, she was, there were some people getting a little carried away. Yeah, but I was wondering, yeah. There's also like Philips and Bartis experiments

of the prisoner, they got like a group of people that were supposed to play prisoners and then a group of people that are supposed to play the guards. Oh, yeah, I've heard about that. Yeah, like guards went crazy. Yeah, so they get crazy, they get like super, you know, ass-hole, they got realistic. Yeah, and the prisoners are getting totally screwed over, right?

And so then they switch the groups and then they see how easily it was for the prisoners to turn into the dick guards. Even though they were just there. Yeah, and that's what blows me away about what happened in Ukraine after Yanukovych fled to Moscow. When they went into his property and looked around, they didn't destroy anything, they didn't loot anything, they weren't... They didn't turn around and become the dick guards. Dick guards. And condoms. Yeah, athletic cups. They were chill, they went in, they went to find evidence, they wanted to see what it was like, and they didn't, there wasn't that real violent kind of over-throw. Backlash, yeah.

And is that because they have health care? Is that because they have mental health care? I'm wondering, I'm sensing a pattern here, EG, you mentioned it twice now, yeah. I can create a pattern with two things. I dig it, I dig it. Three is better. We should start with only two deaths to make a line. Yeah. Let's see if that saves America. Three to triangulate the data.

Yeah, that's true. So, uh, but no, I mean, you know, that it's, that I think that, that honestly, I think free healthcare and access to mental health care is going to the answer for a lot of things that an education is on the other pillar. I'm totally. But like, beyond that, podcast. We are where, yeah, yeah, we are where we are. So anyway, I didn't want to interrupt, but I thought of. But like, beyond that, in podcasts. We are where we are.

Yeah, we are where we are. So, anyway, I didn't want to interrupt, but I thought of those experiments. Yeah, that's really smart. Very interesting. I brought that in. It's like so much easier to act in a morally correct way when your human needs are met. Yeah, it's your basic human needs. Yeah.

Yeah. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right. To think altruistically and to turn the other cheek in. Yeah. Well, it's been a run like that with that in mind. For me, it's been incredibly easy for me to be a more philanthropic and a person more of a helpful person, somebody who serves other people, dedicates my life to service because I got

two free college degrees and I have free health care for life. So you see the benefit, you lived to benefit. I want everyone to have that. So that's not taking up 80% of your brain, worrying about being sick, becoming sick, going bankrupt, job, all that stuff. Yeah, one so- So it's going to cycle a whole wrong answer. And I think we need to move up that bottom level of the triangle on Maslow's hierarchy of need to include those types of things.

Absolutely. For sure. Go for it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I was just going to continue on. So if you want to say those types of things. Absolutely. For sure. Go for it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I was just going to continue on. So if you want to say something about the question. I was just going to say, yeah, it just made me think of that Kanye

cool that I was telling you about the other day. It's like having money is not everything, not having it is. So some rich people are, you know, people in power think, oh, they just want everything. It's like, no, we just want enough. We just want to live. And then we can discuss other stuff. But people think that you want like a mile because you we can discuss other stuff, but people think that

you want like a mile because you're asking for an inch, but that inches everything. The mile is bonus, you know, like that's not necessary. The opinions of Kanye West are not necessarily the opinions of Moonshiroat.com, AG or Joanne Corbal. Oh my God, I love it. Very good point. Thank you, AG. Keep bringing up Kanye every day, and I'm like, you know, he's like Trump every now and then he's got a little bit of genius,

but most of it is all ego. You're right. Yeah. You're killing me, small. I'm so sorry. Okay, hey, you know what? Like, doubt is wisdom. And bringing in other people's perspectives,

no matter how much you hate them and how idiotic they are, is important. You're right. So that's what we're doing here. Thank you. Although, like I said, the opinions are coming. Yes, yes. We do. We do.

Not saying who said it, I do think that is a very astute observation. It is true. That's how I feel, too. I'm sure he wasn't the first, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like, I don't want to live my life for the purpose of giving money, but at a certain point, if I don't have money, I have to live my life in a way just to not have money.

Exactly. Yeah. It's just that basic thing. Yeah. Um, so, comey, a certain Goldsmith that adding to his anger is always a good indicator that they're on the right path. Just a little reminder, we're talking about goldsmith formerly withdrawing the legal opinions. Oh, yeah, that's a part of adding to. So adding to his very pissed off

about that. Adding to who's a bully spoke to Philbin privately and said that based on this and episode with stellar wind, he believed that Philbin violated his oath to support and defend the Constitution. Jesus. So much extreme language. Oh. He suggested that it gets worse. He suggested that Philbin resigns and vowed that he would personally see to it that he was never promoted anywhere else in the government.

Wow. I just love to create all of the superlatives, or the like tally all the superlatives that they use. Never anywhere always. Yeah, everything. Maybe like the world has never seen. You like the world's version. Gold.

Yeah, I just live in clickbait. Goldsmith was a step ahead of Philbin, however, and when he withdrew the legal opinions on interrogation, he said he was resigning to return to academia. He had had enough as it was. Working the new interrogation advice would fall to Dan Levin. Is it Levine? I think it's Levine. Levin sounds right.

It's Levin. Okay, I think it's Levin too. So Levin was gifted and careful, very careful with a dark sense of humor, kind of reminds me of Mueller. Yeah. In an earlier role supporting Mueller at the FBI, 11 was referred to as the funeral director.

Yeah, Mueller was the chipper one. Yeah, that's funny. That gives you an idea of 11. Yeah, next door, like he's the funeral director. Mm-hmm. So, but 11 really throws himself into reworking the legal guidance on this interrogation program. This is hardcore when I about to say Levin actually underwent waterboarding himself to understand it better.

Whoa. Yeah. Like spraying yourself with pepper spray. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Oh my goodness. So he didn't do it.

Yeah, I can't do it to yourself. Right. It's one of those tickling things. Yeah, I heard that cops do that with pepper spray so I made me think of that. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, the mill Yeah, that's a good comparison because when in the military We all have to go in with our gas masks on into a room full full with tear gas and then we have to take our masks off and stand there for I think three minutes. Yeah, Matt I know I do that when we're allowed to leave wow crazy Matt Burr, tell me about that one. Then we're allowed to leave. Wow.

It's crazy. Dramatic cat, piano playing. The podcasts are playing the piano today for you in the background. I'm not sure if you can hear it. We, thanks to our listeners, thanks to our, you guys, our patrons. We have some very sophisticated microphones now and you might be picking up podcasts on the keys. I just imagine your husband, A.G., trying to recreate that viral cat playing the piano video.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm a bad kid. You're a bad kid. You're a bad kid. You're a bad kid. That's amazing. So, Levin, who actually undergrows waterboarding, later tells Comey that this was the worst experience

of his life. Oh, my goodness. Fast forward to December 2004. Levin and the Office of Legal Counsel finished the interrogation opinion. It was really impressive, careful, and thoughtful, coming remarks. Fast forward to December 2004, 11 in the Office of Legal Counsel finished the interrogation opinion. It was really impressive, careful, and thoughtful coming remarks. Tethered tightly to the CIA's information on how the program worked, so they can't complain

much about it not being based in fact. 11 concluded that intentionally inflicting severe mental suffering was a separate category of prohibitive conduct under the law against torture. This is a huge deal because the previous laws only focused on physical pain. The accumulation of the CIA techniques could quickly become illegal because mental suffering was a broad category. Yeah, so taking a naked cold severely sleep deprived and calorie deprived person, slamming him against a wall, putting him in stress positions, slapping him around, waterboarding him, and then sticking him inside a small box

could easily produce great mental suffering, especially if repeated. Right, and as a cumulative effects of that, where any one of those things individually wouldn't be necessarily torture, but because he added this mental issue, severe mental distress part to the law, now when you stack them up like that, yes, part to the law. Now when you stack them up like that,

they create the mental, which is what the torture was. Yeah, it's like you just add all the little dots. And so now it's cumulative effect of all of these separate small things that aren't necessarily torture on their own, makes torture. Yeah, which is I think the way it should be.

For sure, it's kind of crazy for that. Yeah, that would count. That was a pioneering thought. I'm all really that's the government I do Ricky with their lawmaking like that's why it's so powerful. They can just with just words. They can dictate Sorry, go ahead. Oh, no So there were two opinions that needed to follow Leven's main opinion. First, each of the CIA's techniques needed to be evaluated individually under the new standards. So like A.G. was just talking about, it might come out that they're not technically torture. But then the cumulative or combined effects of all the techniques had to be evaluated because

nobody used just one technique. And like you said, it was that distinction that informs their recommendation, basically. Yeah, I'd be interested in the math too, like how many permutations that would be, like, first of all, how many techniques they have, and then putting two of them together, putting these three together, putting these four together, putting these five together in this order, in a reverse order, and how many permutations that is. It's got to be a lot. Oh, yeah. I'm sure they had math guys come in to tell them, here's all your different combinations of possibilities.

Like the four letters that we use to call ourselves ENTJ, four letters, but there's 16 permutations. Yeah. Yeah, well, man, I would not wanna be a person that has to work on the theory behind that stuff. That's definitely something you would learn in statistics. Yeah, not my strong point. There's probably a computer program that does it now.

You just type in the six different things in a show. I take this a lot of it. It takes the torture out of it. It's the drones of torture. That would be mentally suppressive for me. Oh, for sure. Definitely. No, I'm not comparing math to C.I.O.

No, it may be an affinity. Sorry guys. No, we're making a funny English. Sorry guys. I just am not paying any money. I don't want to leave my mouth. So at actual black sites, which I did not know they were called that, they did a whole lot of stuff to their subjects and they would quickly reach the mental suffering criteria. Levin worked long hours to evaluate what was going on at the black side, exactly, but it was difficult.

He never asked him but Komi suspects that Levin shared his hope that the entire CIA interrogation program would crater under the weight of the requirements. Coming had a lot of voices inside of him screaming about how wrong the torture program was, but his bias just had to stay out of it. And his job was to focus strictly on the legality of it. Though he did hear one voice in his head over and over again. And it was, don't be the torture guy. I love that. That is beautiful. Thank you, Jordan. Short, catchy. You're welcome. Thank you. Marketing. Yeah, to your husband. Yeah, she's the best. Yeah, so many You're welcome. Thank you. Marketing. Yeah.

To your husband. Yeah. Don't be the torch. Yeah, she's the best. Alright. Yeah, so many. So much conversation. And then when I dug it, that was really good.

Yes. I still got to go. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we still have the rest of it. We still have the rest of it. I will chat for seven. Two at age. I know you're like, you spoke enough already.

Crazy woman. No, no, no. Please continue. That's true. I do that a lot. No, we wanted to go that direction. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's kind of why I didn't want to go into a whole, I just wanted to do one chapter this week because this one was long enough when there was a lot of discussion points in it that I thought we could have brought up and the next chapters an hour long. So I didn't want to make you guys have to see. Yeah, no, this was perfect. Through that. Yeah, yeah. So getting back into the chapter after Bush was reelected, Ashcroft tendered his resignation. And this is a tradition. Whenever a president is reelected, the AG always tenderizes his resignation. And this is a tradition. Whenever a president is reelected, the AG always

tenders his resignation, allowing the president to pick a new person if they want, but they never do. It's mostly for show. Right. But Bush accepted his resignation. And to add insult to injury, he only gave him a few hours before he would announce it formally. The replacement was also a slap in the face, but to everyone. On November 10, 2004, Bush nominated Alberto Gonzales. That's one of the lawyers who was being an asshole. That's one of the ones who tried to trick Ashcroft. Yeah, I see that name didn't ring a bell, but I remember the douche personality. Yeah, remember the douche personality. Yeah, they might not remember your name, but they'll remember me. Alberto Gonzalez.

Alberto Gonzalez. He's the one who actively opposed Comey on the rule of law. Comey said that this was quote, the age of, this was an age old presidential mistake. The same mistake he would try to warn Trump about. Problems often come up from justice, so people think that they'll benefit if they put one of their guys is the AG, but it always like backfires. It almost always makes things worse to have one of your guys in there. Because people assume you're just having that confirmation bias.

Circle all the time. Yeah. It's just a feedback loop of what you want. Gensales called Komi to say that he looked forward to working with him and that he hoped that he would stay. Komi congratulated him and that he looked forward to working with him and that he hoped that he would stay. Komi congratulated him and said he looked forward to working with him too. He was the AG and Komi wanted him to succeed. But then Komi said quote, it's not that he was evil. It was that he was weak. Aw, like damn. Which is a waste, but it's just not good for the job. Yeah, damn. He could be easily overmatched by Addington and Cheney and their view that terrorism justified stretching

or breaking the rhythm of life. Okay, I see what he means. Yeah, so he's like, just to say, I wanted him to do well. It's not that he was evil. It's just that he was weak. Like, you think he's gonna say something nice, but he doesn't, it just comes back and said he's over.

He keeps it real, yeah. He's using wheat correctly, as opposed to the expressing doubt being weak. Exactly. Right, that means, yeah, overmatched by Addington and Cheney. That's his weakness. And just like you said, that whole feedback loop of what you wanna hear over and over.

A Comey found out later that Bush told Gonzalez to call Komi. He didn't call him by himself. Komi didn't know it, but because of what he knew and witnessed in the Ashcroft hospital room, Komi was viewed as somewhat of a looted gun in the eyes of the White House. Oh my gosh.

One that could go off at any moment, so they handled him with care. Yeah, Komi's a loose candidate. Yeah. Well, you know, because he knew he'd be very sensitive to them. Yeah, it was going to run to Ashcroft's bed and do that stuff. Yeah, yeah. But Komi knew I know he comparison to them. Yeah, it was gonna run to Ashcroft's bed and do that stuff

Yeah, yeah, but Komi knew he didn't want to serve as Gonzalez as Gonzalez's deputy attorney general So in spring 2005 Komi announced his retirement the new AG would want his own deputy anyway And without Ashcroft Komi didn't have the stomach for doing this battle again So he resigned effective August that year 2005 As he was leaving, Cheney kept leaning on Gonzales to give him the two opinions he needed on interrogation. In addition to the new attorney general, the leader of the legal council was a new. So bright guy named Steve Bradbury. Steve wanted to be formally nominated and he was being pushed

by Cheney to give him the opinions he wanted. So Filben and Comey were disappointed that his opinions were broad. They were untethered to Kaisla and super irresponsible. They asked Bradbury to consider a recent case of someone who had been interrogated by the CIA. Comey and Filben knew of a terrorist that had been in CIA custody and whose interrogation was finished. And they suggested Bradbury

described precisely what had been done to that captive and then offer an opinion as to whether that actual real world combination of actions cross the legal threshold. It so happened that the stuff that was done to this particular guy would not have added up to enough to cross the threshold according to Comey, but that wasn't what Cheney wanted. Cheney didn't want a real life scenario. Cheney wanted Bradbury to rule on hypothetical situations typical interrogation not what the c.i.o. is actually doing to real human being so even though he was handing him a case study that he could describe and it would have met the legal threshold or not have met the legal threshold of torture

the chaney still just wanted a broad hypothetical that he could apply all sorts of different things exactly sounds like chaney sounds like Cheney. Yeah. So, Komi met with Gonzales to explain how irresponsible he thought this was to write an opinion on a hypothetical, and he immediately saw the difference between the AG that he respected and his replacement, between Gonzales and Ashcroft. Yeah. Gonzales complained about the pressure from Cheney and that the president even asked when they'd be done. Yeah, welcome to the party. Seriously. Yeah, so I'm going to give up morality because I feel pressure. Comey said he understood the pressure, but there were no prototypical interrogations.

There's no such thing. They all involved real interrogators reacting to real captives, slapping them, chilling them, cramping them, in permutations and combinations that were all unique. It would be impossible to write an opinion on a typical interrogation without it looking like justice was just writing a blank check to say, do whatever you want. So, someday, when this all came out, it would look like you caved to the White House pressures and done something we'd all regret.

Comey knew that the threat of bad headlines was a good way to get someone's attention. And watch him do it. He's like, this is gonna come out later. You're gonna look like a dick. Gonzalo also agreed with Comey as though he'd never thought of that before. He instructed him to work with Bradbury

to restructure the approach and Comey was relieved for a minute. Because the next night, Komi talked to Gonzales, Gonzales's chief of staff, who told him the opinions were to be formalized and sent the next day, zero time. So Komi said to the AG, excuse me, Komi said that the AG told him the opposite the day before. But the chief of staff said things had changed. So what a coward. Not being able to call them and tell them themselves. Seriously. Flip floppy.

Yeah. Oh, I lied to you. I'm not going to call you and tell you I did. I'm going to have my chief of staff do it. Sounds like somebody who doesn't fire people in person. Exactly. Yeah. I'm Brad, my text message.

Yeah. Or Twitter. Oh, yeah. Yeah, our phone call from John Kelly. Bradbury finalized and signed both opinions. A week later, the White House started the background check process needed to nominate Bradbury as the assistant AG and the legal battle was over. Comey felt free to do something he hadn't done before since he wasn't a lawyer on the

case anymore. He went to the AG, Gonzales, to seek permission to request a policy review of the entire program by the National Security Council. Typically, that would lead to a full review by the Security Council's deputy committee, of which it was a member, along with other relevant deputies from different cabinets. They'd frequently hash out details before their bosses got them. And Komi felt he could make his case in that setting. Don't be the torture guy, right?

Now, unfortunately, the policy discussion on torture was elevated from the deputies committee to the principles committee, comprised of the top leadership of the major defense and intelligence agencies like the Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State, CIA Director, and Attorney General, meaning Komi and his team had to prep Gonzalez to speak on their behalf. So, nobody else from justice was allowed to go with him. So Philb and Komi sat down with Gonzales to prep him for the May 31, 2005 policy discussion. And then Komi goes, oh boy.

He's just such a dad. Quit farting around. Gonzales said Condoleezza Rice, at that point, was the Secretary of State, was not interested in discussions on the details. Rice believed, quote, if Justice says it's legal and the CIA says it's effective, that ends it. So no need for a policy discussion at that committee level. Comey and Phil have been trying to get Gonzalez to realize that just because something was

deemed legal on shaky opinions and that there were allegations that it was effective, that doesn't make it appropriate. Comey reminded him that someday these interrogation methods and his shaky legal opinions would all become public. Comey said, quote, I hear there was even a videotape of these interrogations and that would reflect very poorly on the country. And again, that makes me wonder if this isn't what prompted

Bush to contact that CIA lady, Gina Haspel and have her destroy the tapes onto her chair. Then, Komi showed Gonzales a note card he compiled, with a list of things that could be done to another human being under the legal opinion currently written by Gonzales and Bradbury. Komi painted a picture of a human being, standing naked for days in a cold room, with his hands chained overhead to the ceiling, defecating and urinating in a diaper, and golfed in deafening heavy metal music, and spending hours under a constant bright light. He's then unchained to be slapped in the face, and abdomen, he slammed against a wall, sprayed with cold water, then even though weak from severely reduced calorie liquid diets, he's made to stand and

do squats in positions that put extreme stress on his muscles and tendons. And when he can't move any longer, he'll be put in a coffin box for hours before being returned to his ceiling chains. And in special cases, he might be water-borted. Oh, my goodness. That's what this is, Komi said. And the details matter. I'm sorry, I'm choking up, I can't even imagine doing this

to another human person. Komi wanted all the principles to stare at the card. And Gonzalez thanked him and asked Komi if he could keep the card and use it at the meeting. So Komi left in hope that he'd listen. And later in a meeting, Gonzalez would tell Komi unprompted that he brought the stuff up in that meeting, but all the principles supported the current policy

and all parts of it. So no policy were changes, no policy changes were made. The CIA enhanced interrogations could continue. Human beings in the custody of the United States government would be subject to horrible treatment, quote, and I never got my card back. And I want my pink shirt back. Comey left government service two months months later determined never to return. Wow

That's not true. Yeah, I'm glad he stuck with it and I was Trump would quit Yeah, he was never in service to begin with. Yeah, there you go I was just with clip before he like he did quit. He ran away five times with Bonesburg. Oh good point. Yeah This that whole last scene just that was insane. I mean, he really spelled it out. He tried. He tried is the best and they ignored him. Because they didn't care because of their confirmation bias. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, exactly. And it's like, if you think these people are guilty and they have what ever they can justify violence, Republicans, we're justifying violence for the Komi new for decades of developing interrogation techniques in the FBI that those are not, they're useless techniques and they got what they needed by building a rapport. Yeah, and trusting relationships with the people they were interrogating with their captives.

They caught mobsters, they caught, they brought down the godi family, they brought down the Gambino family, they brought down, they're going to bring down Trump. Like there's proof you don't need to do these things. There is. But these are bullies that they love doing these things. Yeah, it's really nice. Okay, partially that and I would say partially the fact that they actually Believed that it was effective like the only way is also political I mean think about going out and saying to Americans that you know you're capturing terrorists because you're Treating terrorists like shit. That's gonna get a lot of the kind of voters you want to support you to support you. And then you get a world where Muslims are just so, you know, treated the way they are.

Yeah, that's how it happens. Yeah, people that are serving over in Iraq and Afghanistan and or have, it's like labeling, you know, the brown people that live over there as these beasts basically need to be justified what they have to do over there. And most people who have served in combat, and this isn't all veterans, because combat, I think less than 2% of veterans are combat veterans who've served alongside people in the Middle East, in Iraq and Afghanistan, OEF, OIF, OIF, OND, in the first Gulf War, et cetera.

And they have translators and people who they work with in the Iraqi army and in... Oh, like allies. Yeah, they don't have that bias against... Right. Muscles. But your average American that's protected by these people. Yeah, your average American who thinks they were in the military and supports the military and wants you to stand during the national anthem.

And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations.

And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations.

And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. And congratulations. I don't unfortunately the people that I know you know calling this is like such a horrible term But goat effers. Yeah, you heard that before totally. It's in Ireland. Oh really? Translating that the less brown country. Yeah, this is yeah, my I don't want to name who it is It's not there if people say it. Yeah, it's like their combat, their combat active duty combat marine.

Oh, this person was in combat? Yeah, I've heard these people too. It's not the majority. I would imagine that most people that have been through this and are actually affected by it, they would know better. But yeah, I've heard these people who fill that way and are in the military. Yeah, and that's what really sucks.

But I think, yeah, I trust your experience. Yeah, it only makes sense. The general right. It's just from these are from the combat that said I know. Yeah, these are also deeply artistic and creative people who I work with in the community who want to help others. So they might be predisposing predisposition to have more of a better see the better angels of our humanity.

Right. Somebody, I wanna trust that because I wanna feel like that's the majority just based on common sense. It's like once you meet people, just like racism in our own backyard, it helps to reach out and to work with others. And traveling is like the best thing for that kind of discrimination.

So these people probably haven't really traveled the way they said or they're just races that are never gonna I yeah, I honestly think like these the ones that I'm talking about they've been on record as saying they legitimately enjoy being in combat and and like The the people that they're working with like you said the translators and everything I can only imagine they have respect and camaraderie with them because they're working together to complete their mission. And this is kind of true about anybody who's a racist or a bigot is that they, if they say I have a black friend, for example, and they do, they have these individual people who they don't hold in that carcins. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's like, you know, in that carcines, yeah. Do you know what I'm saying?

So it's like, you know, there are a lot of misogynists who have wives. Like you're the assessment. Like you're the assessment. You're the good one. But they, you know, they still have that whole bias that you're against the whole entire group of people. That's why that whole, I have a black friend thing,

doesn't fucking fly with me. It should not. Yeah, it's like, really? That's your argument? Yeah, yeah, do better. You live a better one. You live a better one. Right, yeah. You don't have to say it, it's like really that's your argument. Yeah. Yeah, do better. You live a better one. Right. Yeah. You don't have to say it if it's true. Like if you have to say I'm not a racist, like maybe your actions aren't showing that. Yeah. And I think the fact that I even know that they say that and they feel that strongly against these people in general is a bad sign just in terms of

you know what Komi's saying, when that gets out, that's gonna look bad. That looks horrible to know that there are people that are actually saying that. And our super racist, like it breaks my heart just for the legitimacy of their work. And, and there's still, and what is it about you that you don't wanna help them?

Racism is a good thing to break down. Like what I haven't figured it out, obviously. I'm just like, I would love to think that it could end someday, but a part of me feels like no matter what shade, like if we're all shades of brown, and they'll find different shades of brown to make fun of. Well, they do it within the black community. Yes, black skin.

People who are light skin. Black slaves. Yeah, there's all kinds of... Well, no, I mean, people who are light skin, black versus dark skin. Oh, black. Yeah, but modern all good. No, I mean, people who are a light skin, Black versus dark skin. Oh, Blacks. Yeah, but not in the gay community. People who are more gay than other gay people.

Yeah. And we just want to close that margin, I think, is the goal. There may be one racist and every civilization, but if we can just make them that one weirdo and not like a thousand KKK members or something, we need to not make it a sanctioned by the government. First of all, we need to not have a president that supports

it. Exactly. And we need to make it embarrassing and shameful to be that way overtly. We're always, always, always, all the time, no matter what until the end of time, going to have implicit bias and implicit prejudice. And we just need to recognize it and cope with it and deal with it and set up failsafe so that we don't act upon it or so that we don't discriminate. and set up fail-safe so that we don't act upon it or so that we don't discriminate. But for overt racist assholes, it needs to be not sanctioned by the government and it needs to be embarrassing and disgusting. Draw a hard line. And I will stop a Nazi's face.

I don't care. I'll do it too. Oh, yeah. So don't run me. I'm pretty not passive-ish when it comes to that stuff. Yeah, I'll pop on a picture-spencer with your dark martens and your blackly. I don't have time for like a wail. Yeah, there's the racism.

No, I'm not going to go out like I did in high school and go to punk shows and try to find Nazis and beat them up. I'm a little old for that. Yeah, but I am going to wherever I see racism or misogyny or sexism. I am going to call it out and I'm going to embarrass that person. Yeah, homophobia. It's homophobia. I think they're just beyond embarrassment though.

I think they're just not capable of feeling shame. They used to. That's a big part of it. Yeah, but I had a deeper conversation with this person too and it's like they love helping the children over there, for example, but people that are adults that are over there They just assume that if they have any part in any of the violence, then they just reduce them to like barbeque Does this person know that children become adults? Or that children can be a part of it too, like if they can see the good in the kids and the kids that are sometimes in these, you know, organizations that are violent, then they can see the good in an adult, but they're choosing not to.

It's a, yeah, I think it's more so that the civilian versus part of the, I don't even, you're right. Like if you saw a kid with a bazooka, they'd probably be like, well, you're not one of my, you know, you know, if they're really exposed to it, is them cutting off your friend's head or shooting your buddy. Exactly. That's where I think it ultimately stems from. Not them just being overtly racist, but the result of it is that they're being overtly racist

and you have the American people that are looking to this people to uphold our values as a country. Well, I wish they realized that was connected to religion and not skin color. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a whole other discussion. Yeah. You guys has been an awesome episode. I'm glad we left a time.

I'm glad we only did one chapter. I'm glad we left time for a lot of that discussion. I think we got a lot of scientific research in there. Yeah, so so. Maybe we solved racism and ended up a world hunger. Yeah, I had a Kanye quote. Yeah, I've lived it in there. I think now the Palestinian two-state solution

is finished and we're set. quote. Yeah, I did in there. I think now the Palestinian two-state solution is finished. And we're set. Yes. OK. Nice job. All the days were. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, everyone.

I'm fine. Anyway, this is now seriously. This has been a great episode. Thank you so much. Thank you for being a patron. You are seriously making everything work here. Yeah. It wouldn't work without you.

So we really appreciate it. If you don't believe me, go listen to earlier episodes and see how they sound You will know you'll see how important you are and you can say I did that So anyway you guys thank you so much. I've been AG. I've been Julie Sajanson I've been Jordan Coburn and this is Mueller. She wrote Music Muller She wrote is produced and engineered by AG with editing and logo design by Jolissa Johnson. Mark Kick Consulting by Amanda Rita at Unicorn Creative. Our digital media director and subscriber managers are Jordan Coburn and Sarah Hirschberger Valencia.

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