Jack - Bull Durham (feat. Frank Figliuzzi)

Episode Date: November 7, 2021

This week: more on the Trump Tower server communications and Alfa-Bank; Rudy booty news; Matthew Grimes’ embarrassing ankle monitor; another thin indictment from Durham, and more; plus some Sabotage and the Fantasy Indictment League.Our Guest:Frank Figliuzzihttps://twitter.com/FrankFigliuzzi1https://frankfigliuzzi.com/books/Subscribe to The Bureau:https://link.chtbl.com/TheBureauFollow AG and Dana on Twitter:Dr. Allison Gill https://twitter.com/allisongillhttps://twitter.com/MuellerSheWrotehttps://twitter.com/dailybeanspodWant to support the show and get it ad-free and early?https://dailybeans.supercast.tech/Orhttps://patreon.com/thedailybeansPromo Codes Protect all of your online information and devices with one simple subscription. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners up to 40% off plans when you visit http://aura.com/MSW. Get your first $5,000 managed for free at Wealthfront.com/MSW. It takes just minutes to start building your wealth. Visit wealthfront.com/MSW. Wild Alaskan Company delivers high quality, sustainably-sourced Wild-Caught Seafood right to your door. Right now you can get $15 off your first box of premium seafood when you visit WildAlaskanCompany.com/MSW.

Hi, I'm Harry Lickman, host of Talking Feds. Around table, the brings together prominent figures from government law and journalism for a dynamic discussion of the most important topics of the day. Each Monday, I'm joined by a slate of Feds favorites at new voices to break down the headlines and give the insider's view of what's going on in Washington and beyond. Plus, side bars explaining important legal concepts read by your favorite celebrities. Find Talking Feds where ever you get your podcasts. Hey all, this is Glenn Kirschner and you're listening to Muller Shee wrote.

So to be clear, Mr. Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs. That's what he said. That's what I said. That's obviously what the proposition is. I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time, a two, and that campaign, and I didn't have, not have communications with the Russians. What do I have to get involved with Putin for? I have nothing to do with Putin.

I've never spoken to him. I don't know anything about a mother than he will respect me. Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. So, it is political. You're a communist. No, Mr. Green. Communism is just a red herring. Like all members of the oldest professional capitalist. Hello and welcome to Muller She Wrote. I'm your non-anonymous host, Alison Gil. You know me as AG.

We have a big show today as we continue to dust off the good old alpha bank trump tower back channel server communications saga. I have some exclusive reporting that only mullershi wrote has from a very reliable source who has spoken with me on the condition of anonymity. There's also some movement in the Rudy Giuliani case as we have a new update from the special master barber Jones. case as we have a new update from the special master, Barbara Jones. We have a new indictment in the Durham investigation of the oranges, and it's just as stupid as the Susman indictment, and I'll have former counterintelligence assistant director and host of the Bureau podcast, Frank Fagluzzi, on with me later, who poured over the indictment with me to discuss it in length. There's some news out about the Manhattan District Attorney's Office going on with that

Trump Organization Weiselberg type investigation and a little bit more on the Tom Barrett case. And of course, we'll have some sabotage and the fantasy indictment league. So big show. Also, today begins with the new MSW Book Club series on Here, Right Matters by Colonel Alexander Vindman. That's an eight-part series with the final episode to include the author himself. With me, answering questions posed by you are patrons. To find the form, to send in a question about the book for Alex to answer, just head to patreon.com slash mullershi wrote.

You get access to ad free episodes of M mullershi wrote as a patron. You get ad free episodes of the book club, the daily beans, you get bonus content, meet up information, happy hour zoom calls, our weekly newsletter that includes my personal research notes, access to private social media groups, all for three bucks a month or $36 a year. Your contribution goes towards increasing pay and benefits to our amazing team, so thank you so much for sponsoring and being a patron of these shows. Alright, we have a lot of news to get to, so let's jump in with just the facts.

Alright, y'all check this shit out. Tom Barrick's ex-assistant, who complained that wearing an ankle bracelet interfered with his surfing and tennis, lost his legal bid to remove the GPS tracking device while he awaits trial with his former boss on charges of acting as an unregistered for an agent. US District Judge Brian Cogan on Tuesday rejected a request by Matthew Grimes, a 28-year-old, to modify his bail conditions. Grimes' attorney, guess who, Abby Lowell, said in court papers that his client can't immerse the device in water, and that it was embarrassing to wear, and it impeded his search for new employment. Oh, God, white people problems.

Here's a quote from the judge. It seemed to me the purposes you're offering are not all that compelling," he said in federal court in Brooklyn, New York. The evidence against Grimes is, quote, overwhelming because he was, quote, a central actor essential to the success of the illicit foreign influence campaign. That's according to prosecutors who warned the judge that he is subject by pressure to barrack and the foreign leaders that they were accused of helping. Lowell, Abby Lowell, insisted that the chance of Grimes fleeing his southern California home

is remote. But Kogan said, quote, the circumstances of Grimes fleeing his southern California home is remote. But Kogan said, quote, the circumstances of this case are so unique. This is the judge. That removing the bracelet doesn't warrant taking that degree of risk. Again, the circumstances of this case are so unique. This is some shit we haven't seen most of the time. Despite rejecting the ankle monitor request, the judge did agree with other bail modifications. He let Grimes travel domestically, if he gives prior notice, lifted a curfew and increased the amount he can spend

without giving prior notice to $100,000 from $10,000. Oh, yay! Tom Barrick, founder of Colony Capital Inc. and former top Trump fundraiser, was charged in July with illegally lobbying for the United Arab Emirates, as well as obstruction of justice and lying to federal officials during a 2019 interview. Grimes was also charged with illegal lobbying, both have pleaded not guilty and deny wrongdoing.

Prosecutors feared that Grimes had, quote, directly interacted with extremely wealthy powerful foreign powers. That's assistant US attorney Ryan Harris. And those foreign officials could ensure quote that he was able to get away and his family could be made whole. Kogan asked if the prosecutors had intelligence that quote, there has been any discussion or chatter about interfering with this trial. Harris said he was not in the position to answer. The judge said, you don't know or you can't say. And Harris said, I don't think I can in a public setting, and I don't think it's appropriate.

This case will also involve sealed hearings about evidence protected under the Classified Information Procedures Act. Again, very unique case. So let's put this into context, because Barric recommended Manafort for the campaign chair job. He also sat atop the criminal enterprise known as the Trump inaugural with Manafort pal Rick Gates as the deputy. And as we well know for Andrew Weissman's book, who has been radio silent since tweeting

out our Daily Beans interview in July, just 10 days before Tom Barrick was indicted, Andrew Weissman said they did have enough to nab Manifort for conspiracy when he handed over that polling data to a known Russian agent, known as Constantin Kalimnik, and we know the current case against Tom Barrick includes classified information, and we also know that very recently, Tom Barrick unloaded two expensive trial lawyers, and as you know, I have personally heard rumors intelligence from my inside sources, which are very reliable, but have not yet been corroborated by any major news outlets that Tom Barrick is cooperating with the feds.

Or at least trying to. We also know that Tom Barrick was the preferred link of communication between MBS, MBC, and the White House. And according to the indictment, Tom Barrick lobbied for the Middle East Marshall Plan to give US nuclear technology to the United Arab Emirates and the Saudis. We also know Trump accepted a massive bribe from Saudi Arabia and that the Saudis made a huge payment to a bank in Egypt and that there was a fourth team in the Mueller office looking into that and other financial issues that have yet to be uncovered.

We also know there was enough to charge Tom Barrick last year, but prosecutors sat on this until Trump and Barr work on. The Inspector General Department of Justice is investigating whether Barr blocked or quashed any federal probes against political allies during his tenure. I'm excited to see what happens in that Inspector General report and also what happens in the Tom Barich probe. And I have some exclusive information from a reliable source about the Alpha Bank Trump Tower spectrum health covert communications. As you know, this story is recently resurfaced because Durham, the special counsel appointed by Bill Barr to investigate the oranges.

And in case you wonder why I keep saying oranges, that's what Donald said at one point. He couldn't say the word origins. So he repeated the word oranges several times. So now we just call it the oranges. When I'm talking about investigating the investigation of Trump Russia, that's the oranges. Anyway, Durham, this whole thing came back. This Alpha Bank thing came back, but Durham and died at a lawyer named Susman, who was close to researchers looking into the weird communications between a server and Trump Tower, and a couple of Alpha Bank servers and a spectrum health server. Alpha Bank is the biggest bank in Russia and its CEO, Peter Avin, wanted a back channel

for Russian communications with the Trump transition team. Co-founder of the Alpha Bank, Herman Kahn, has a son-in-law named Alex Vanderswan, who was indicted in the Mueller probe for lying about his communications with Rick Gates and Constantin Kalimnik. And Spectrum Health is a Betsy DeVos joint, and we know her brother was a proxy for Trump when he met with representatives from Russia and the United Arab Emirates in the Seychelles to discuss sanctions and setting up a back channel of communication during the Trump transition.

Anyhow, my source, my very reliable source, tells me a new piece of information that has not publicly been reported from what I can find at least. If it has, shoot it on over to me. I haven't at least. If it has, shoot it on over to me. I haven't seen it. That new information is that the Trump server sent out a ping to five servers. Hello. And three responded, hey, we hear you. Two alpha bank servers and one spectrum server. Those are the three. And the Trump tower server exclusively communicated with only those three servers. It did not communicate with tens of thousands of other servers as had been suggested or

posited, which would indicate spam or marketing communications, like a normal company does. No. The Trump server was only talking to Spectrum and the two Alphabet servers. And that is a very new piece of kind of important information. So take that into account when you hear reports about what's going on with Alpha Bank. We know Mato recently covered a big chunk of important information coming from the original researchers who looked into the Alpha Bank stuff and had concluded in emails that this was definitely a covert communications back channel and that Trump and Alpha Bank tried to cover it up.

Despite Durham's assessment in his 27 page indictment for one charge of lying, that those researchers had concluded that there was no there there. He left out ex-culpatory information. I think that's a Brady violation. I don't think he should be special counsel. I don't think he was appointed under any authority,

but I digress. Finally, the Manhattan District Attorney, Si Vance, we know he's been using a special grand jury, meeting three times a week since May. And with that grand jury, he did indict Weiselberg and the Trump Organization on multiple counts of tax fraud for basically executives getting perks without paying taxes on them, such as school tuition, We know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that we know that So we got a little Christmas gift. The Manhattan District Attorney's Office has empaneled another special grand jury for another six months to meet three days a week.

And according to those familiar with this, she is, this one will be focusing on asset valuations, property valuations, and those pesky conservation easements I've been talking about forever. All right, as you know, illegitimate special counsel, John Durham, tasked with the oranges has arrested a Russian guy that gave information to Christopher Steele for lying to the FBI, and he wants you to believe that the lies are material because apparently, according to Durham, in this very long indictment, according to him, the steel dossier was heavily relied upon for the opening of Crossfire Hurricane,

the Mueller probe, the Carter page, FISA warrant. Apparently it was the basis for the Magna Carta. It's the reason we're setting our clocks back this week. It's the basis for the strong nuclear force that holds all matter and therefore reality together. The steel dossier responsible for everything. And joining me next to discuss the latest loser of an indictment is former assistant director of the FBI for counterintelligence and host of the podcast, The Bureau, Frank

Fogluzzi. Stay with us. Hey, everybody. It's A.G. and today's episode is brought to you by the Wild Alaskan Company. If you'd like to cook a lot, like I do, and you know that flavor from meal start with high quality food and simple ingredients, you are going to love Wild Alaskan Company. Their seafood is frozen right after it's caught for peak freshness so you can avoid the

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So no matter what you're into, wealth front will help you build your wealth responsibly and protect you from making a bad mistake, like going all in on some bad advice, you got on Reddit. Best of all, wealth front is totally automated. They do all the trading and all the rebalancing, and they even help lower your tax bills as you invest. Wealthfront is trusted with over 27 billion in assets,

helping nearly half a million people build their wealth. Get your first $5,000 managed for free at Wealthfront.com slash MSW. It takes just minutes to start building your wealth. Visit Wealthfront.com slash MSW. That's Wealth. Visit wealthfront.com slash MSW. That's wealthfrontfroint.com slash MSW. Everybody, welcome back. Joining me today, host of the Bureau, amazing podcast, author of the FBI way,

and former assistant director of the FBI for counterintelligence, Mr. Frank Fogluzzi. Frank, hello, but welcome back to Mullershy Road. It's been a long time since you've been on this particular podcast. That's true. Sometimes I get confused about where I am at any given time. But now you've reminded me. I'm glad to be on Mullershi Road. Yeah. And we did, you know, we did talk a little bit on the daily beans about what's been going on with what we're about to discuss, you know, with regards to this indictment from from Durham, which I do apologize again. I know we talked about this.

You cannot get those two hours of your life back that you spent reviewing this indictment. But I really wanted to do a deep dive into this on the Mollarshi wrote podcast because as you know, Bill Barr appointed John Durham prior as special counsel from within the government, which is weird because that's against the rules of appointment for a special counsel. But we know whatever, that's neither here nor there yet. And we've talked about the Susman indictment. I know you and I have discussed that as well. We've talked about the Klein Smith indictment. And now we're on the third indictment. And this is for lying to the FBI, right,

to investigate or to the special counsel. It's five counts. And as first, let me back up for those wondering, what we're talking about when I say I lost two hours of my life. I say that because I took the time to read this indictment by during a couple of times, I researched independently to refresh my recollection as they say on whether things were accurately portrayed

in his indictment or not. And I came away thinking, boy, I just wasted two hours of my life because I don't think it was worth the investment of time. That's my summary of this indictment, but I want to get into the weeds on it. And yes, it's five counts of Title 18, USC 1000, 2001, which is lying to the FBI. And I'll note that he's, it's like, you know, do you remember, I don't know about you, but you had to show your work and math homework and middle school or elementary school and you didn't know what was going on. So you kind of just, you know, three pages of notations about numbers and things.

That's essentially what he's done with this. It's 39 pages. And he's the five counts. You say, well, that sounds serious, five federal counts of lying. Three of them, at least. Now maybe hold on, let me check. Now, two, two, three, four, and five.

So four of them are all related to the same lie, which is interesting. Now, allegedly, he lied on different dates to the FBI, but that's not usual. So he's kind of making something out of this. Let's dig into it. I want to preface this by saying something. When people are found to have lied to the FBI, they should be charged if it's mature. I want to say that upfront, because I know some people are going to, particularly maybe on some other network that we shall not name. Michael, look at this former FBI agent somehow defending some

Russian who's lied to the FBI. That's not me. If you lied to the FBI, God help you. And if it's found to be material, you should be charged. Okay. Having said that, I started getting really concerned in just the first few paragraphs by the way the narrative is being shaped. It's a story. It's not really that much of an indictment stating facts.

Here's some of the shaping I'm talking about in the very first paragraph. Dern says, Crossfire Hurricane, that's the initial FBI Russian counterintelligence investigation, was all about whether or not the Trump campaign was coordinating with the Russian government. Well, Crossfire Hurricane was much bigger than that. It was, where are the Russians interfering in the 2016 election? Written large, right? It's a comprehensive counterintelligence investigation. So from really the first sentence in the first paragraph, he's already shaping this narrative for us. Like, hey, I'm telling you, the FBI thought Trump was no good, and that's why they opened this case, and now I'm about to tell you,

it's all a house of cars. That's from paragraph one. Okay. Then he says, and by the way, I'll just note on whether or not Russia was or not coordinating with Trump campaign people, exhibit a Paul Manafort and his deputy at campaign headquarters who he was passing campaign data to, who now it has been called in known Russian agents. So, okay, you know, coordinate,, not you figure that out. All right. Now, I also have to mention that special counsel Muller invited two dozen Russians, okay? And again, if people are saying, yeah, see no coordination because they're saying it now on certain news

networks. See that nothing there Independent of anything that that Durham's talking about Muller and Dited 2000 Russians 12 with them We're car carrying GRU intelligence agents. So again, you you make the call on that paragraph two paragraph two He refers to now. He never names Christopher steel. But he's talking about Christopher steel paragraph two he calls steel just a former British government employee. Okay. Christopher Steel was the head of the Russia desk for a British intelligence. Yeah, that's like calling me, you know, I am a former US federal government employee. Yeah, settle same here.

Right, that would be like you and I did the same thing. Yeah. No, no, no characterization of his expertise. His whole career devoted to studying Russia. No, no, he's a former British government boy. Okay. Um, paragraph three, Hillary Clinton's campaign retained a firm to conduct research against Trump. Well, he never mentions anywhere in there that, okay, hold on, this whole thing started with Republicans paying for research against Trump because they didn't like Trump, right?

It was, it was, it was, it was, no mention of, hey, this whole, this thing started with Republicans blaming everything on Hillary Clinton at this point. Very interesting. And then this is big, and you and I've talked about this. The biggest mischaracterization of all in Derbs indictment and his lovely story is that everything hinged on the steel dothspit, just everything. My God, the Carter Page, Affidavit, you know, that hinged on the steel Dotspia, the whole thing that rolled into the Mallory Creek, that hinged on the steel Dotspia significantly. Well, the Carter, and by the way, he describes Carter Page as an advisor to the presidential

campaign. The counterintelligence case on Carter Page's pre-dates, any of that. The FBI thought Carter Page was no good and a Russian operative well before, he became connected in whatever way it was to the Trump campaign. Yeah, and he was an informant for the CIA.

That goes back to Klein Smith's thing. But informants, criminal and formalists are not always innocent because they are part of the crimes. And that's true in this case with what was going on with the Russians that were indicted and one still on the land, I think in 2013 or something like that.

And not to mention, Frank, by the time that FISA warrant was signed by Rod Rosenstein, by the time that FISA warrant was signed by Rod Rosenstein by the time that FISA warrant was signed by Rod Rosenstein, who Inspector General Horowitz said that would have been signed regardless of whether the steel dossier was accounted for or not. That was signed, that renewal was signed after Carter Page had left the Trump campaign and was no longer an advisor. Right. So now we have Durham contradicting the DOJ Inspector General's finding that the

Carter Page Affidavit would have would have been signed regardless of the dossier, but it's this larger mischaracterization and is this misplaced reliance on the dossier that he keeps hitting us over the head with that simply isn't accurate. So all of that goes toward just really a suspect reason and for a very long stretch of an indictment. And so paragraph seven says the FBI was unable to corroborate most of the substantive allegations in the dossier and the research report. That's simply not true.

In fact, most experts will tell you that the majority of the dossier has been proven accurate. So particularly, you know, the dossier, everybody keeps thinking about the p-tapes and when they think of the dossier. The dossier broadly said, I think the Russians are engaged in interfering with the election. That was the message of the dossier, which has been proven true for what we just talked about. The two dozen Russians indicted, Manafort's campaign deputy that got data, all of that, the hacking, the propaganda, all of that. So, paragraph 11. the propaganda, all of that. So paragraph 11. All right, now we're getting into the meat of the of why you get charged for lying to the FBI. And again, no sympathy for anybody who does that.

This guy that's been indicted for that is called Igor Dan Chanko. And I have to tell you, no great shock that a shady suspect Russian Russian type operative, shockingly lied to the FBI. Oh my God, we should be amazed at that, right? I'm being sarcastic because of course the FBI, when looking at a data that may be subsourced from somebody like this, and whether they knew at the time or not,

we need more details here, right? How much of the FBI know and when? That may be the next thing Durham's headed for. But, you know, they're supposed to be some shock factor in this and they're like, oh my God, Christopher Steele relied on somebody who's a shady Russian guy who lied. Yeah, as you said earlier, I've never had an informant

who was a Sunday school teacher. I just never had. So, yeah, that's just the way it goes. Now, what's he lied about? Okay. I want to get into the specifics of the lie because there are certain things and I would expect another bill of particulars to come quickly after this, notwithstanding any pre-trial motions, but I have to take a quick break. Will you stay with me?

Sure. Thanks, everybody. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody. It's A.G. And I want to thank Credit Karma for sponsoring this portion of the show. Do you sometimes feel overwhelmed when it comes to handling personal finances? I do. You aren't the only one. You are not alone. And Credit Karma is here to help you make those big calls with more confidence.

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Again, creditcarma.com slash loan offers. You'll be glad you did. Everybody, welcome back. We are talking with former assistant director of the FBI for counterintelligence host of the Bureau, which is an amazing podcast. Frank Fagluzzi and Frank before the break, we were about to get into the statements, the lies, right?

The actual 1000 and ones, if you, if you will. And I'm reminded immediately of the assessment indictment because in the bill of particular Susman's lawyers came back to Durham and said, Hey, you didn't even put down word for word what the lie is or whether or not it was an omission or a lie, one thousand one air, one thousand one B. That was a bill of particulars filed by Susman's lawyers saying, oh, we won't get into materiality yet, but what are the particulars here of the lie

or the lies, two lies, right? I do wanna talk about materiality later because it's kind of, it is really kind of like a middle school approach to showing things you know people are gonna take issue with. But anyway, all right, so charge one essentially is that he lied when he said he never communicated with somebody referred to as PR executive one, specific about anything specific in the dossier, in the reporting, any allegations that have come up in all of this reporting. He's never, he says, I've never communicated with PR executive one.

We don't know who that is. Well, Durham comes in and says, that's a lie. That's a lie. Now, here's the thing. Imagine yourself on a jury, because this goes to a jury. It's going to be very interesting when you're presented with this. I'd never, the language is, and he does, Durham does include language.

I never said anything specifically about those charges communicated that with, communicated about that with PR1, but perhaps we talked about related issues. Oh boy, really, you're charging that. The guy says, perhaps we talked about related issues. Good luck with that charge. No, number two, he did a check a light when he guessed

who an anonymous caller was, and he said it was the head of the Russian Chamber of Commerce in the, you know, in the US. Okay, let's talk about it. That's Sergei, that's Sergei Million, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about it. How can you lie about guessing? Well, exactly. I think I'm talking to Alison Gill. Sounds like Alison Gill could be wrong. I think that's who it was. Now, now, Durham goes on. I think that's who it was. Now, Durham goes on later on.

You're lying. You're lying. Sorry. Now, but I will say this, to give Durham credit. Later on, he explains more details. He says, then Chanko was lying because he went on a New York trip after this and never met. We see no evidence that he met with this guy because the whole thing was about setting up a face-to-face

with the head of the Russian Chamber of Commerce. Derms as you're lying because that never happened. In fact, I see you going to the Bronx Zoo in New York one day and you didn't meet with the guy and while you were in New York. And the timeframe where you say you got this anonymous call, predates the trip to New York where you went to the Bronx Zoo and later on you sent an email to the head of the Russian Chamber of Commerce and you said, hey, we're still not

meeting. Are you seeing my emails? And you told somebody else, hey, he's not agreeing to a meeting. But yet, you think you got an anonymous call that was him. Okay, again, good luck with that charge. Because beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't get, and remember, this is a shady underworld of Russian intel, Russian organized crime. Who knows who and do people get anonymous calls? Yes. Do they, can you prove a negative?

You never got an anonymous call. Good luck. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask, how can you prove that someone did not get a call? Yeah. And again, when you're going to hang the guy by his own words where he says, I think that's, I think it was that guy who called me. I don't know. Okay. Good luck with that. I don't know. Okay, good luck with that. So we go on now, let's talk about, oh, the three, now it's four charges involving this Chamber of Commerce scenario,

this guy, the anonymous call guy. Well, it's merely, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not downplaying line to the FBI, if he's guilty in its material, great, but it's just breaking down the separate charges from the same set of facts. You lied to us here, you lied to us there. Well, he kept saying, basically, the same thing.

I think it was that guy, and they kept charging him. Now, with it. So, let's talk about the key to a lie, a charge for a thousand one. Materiality. Now, you know in the assessment case, all of the talking heads all over television, all the legal experts were saying, there really is no materiality here. The guy, assessment, he's accused of lying about what? Which client he might have been representing, if any, at any given time when he reported his concerns to the FBI. I don't see materiality in that. You should go to the FBI with a concern.

And Durham said, well, you know, it's material because the FBI might have done things different. Right. So now chastised by television pundits, here comes John Durham with this indictment. And repeatedly, I shouldn't be laughing, but repeatedly in the indictment, Durham's use his phrase is like, very material, really material, substantially material. He's been castized, right? So he's saying, I'm telling you, this is material. And so, why is it material? Well, two things. The Carter Page wiretap might never have happened.

That's not true, according to the internet. I would know that's just, that's just both others. And then secondly, this I like a lot. The FBI really expended a lot of resources on what this guy was saying. They worked really hard to try and prove or disprove it. And boy, all those resources, that makes his lies material. Well, the FBA was really hard to prove or disprove anybody's statement. So again, I'm just concerned that this is a huge stretch, and I don't know where Derms going with this, but I'm increasingly concerned that he's got an agenda that's not necessarily in the public service. And if I go, I think he's hoping for guilty pleas

because if this goes to a jury, I'm not sure it's gonna work. Yeah, and not to mention about materiality. These lies, these two lies happened a year after, more than a year after, Crossfire Hurricane was opened with criminal predication. So they have nothing to do with, you know, when I first heard that there was a, that there was an indictment coming down, I tweeted out, and they, oh, we don't know what it is yet,

but the New York Times says it's got to do with somebody who was part of the dossier. I was like, you know, with the sounds like it sounds like somebody leaked it, Durham leaked it to the press to get them to say that before you put out what was in the meat of the indictment. And I said, I bet it's got nothing to do with the opening of the Trump Russia probe. As we said, in a very first paragraph of this indictment, what is he linked with? Crossfire hurricane. Implying, it's all based on the dossier, which it was not. So look, we're in the place in this country

where you're going to watch your news network of choice. You're going to believe, I already see on social media. That's it. It's all over, you know, it was all a house card. See, it's nothing. There's nothing about the Russia case. OK, That's it. It's all over. You know, it was all House of Card. See, it's that's nothing. There's nothing about the Russia case. Okay, that's fine. We will forget about the two dozen Russians indicted the hacking of propaganda and the

actual facts that Carter Page was under investigation previously that crossfire hurricane was opened before the dossier that the IG said the Carter Page update would have happened anyway. That was just forgetting about all that. It's the same talking points we've been saying over and over again to push back against the disinformation that the steel dossier was the predicate for opening any of these investigations be it Mueller probe crossfire hurricane or getting the FISA warrant signed off for Carter page who was not working for the Trump campaign at that point and who nothing ever happened. Now, again, you're right, lying to the FBI is a big deal.

But what does it say? What I can't understand is I thought Durham was a pretty straight shooter. And I can't understand why he's bending to this narrative. First of all, I'm surprised Granjury has put these indictments forward, but let's, you know, okay. What would be the motivation to do this? I mean, why would you do this to yourself if you're Durham? So I, and I've told you this before, I worked for John Durham before I was ever an FBI agent. I was his intern on an organized crime strike

force and communicated that he had it up. I worked directly with him. He is a solid career prosecutor. You know, he's, I mean, this is the guy, if your family members have victim of a federal crime, you want this guy going after the bad guy. Sure. Absolutely. And he's worked very sensitive cases involving FBI misconductconduct CIA misconduct. He's done it all.

Okay, so motivation. I think he's a true believer. I think he's in the mold of Bill Bar that appointed him. This indictment, reading this indictment, I had flashbacks to Bill Bar's four-page summary of the Mueller report, where he got out in front of it and summarized it all wrong and shaped it, and convinced the public there's nothing really here. I, next, it looks a lot like this indictment. I'm shaping this narrative. I'm telling you my belief, my story. I think he's a true believer.

I think he's, on the far right, he's, I think he's an ultra conservative. I think he believes he's doing God's work literally, um, when he kind of takes down anybody that was going after the GOP candidate who was going to save the world. I think that's, that's where this might be coming from. A lot of some people have, um, posited some sort of pressure, compromise, compromised, you know, that he's compromised somehow. But yeah, no, I think you're right. I think he's just in that sort of camp in that trade because, you know, there were times when we got the texts between Manafort and Hannity.

And it sort of answered the question to these assholes believe their own bullshit. Yes, these these tech unless they were texting thinking they would get out. They seem to believe everything that that Trump was feeding them. And that's to me more frightening than somebody diabolical making it up or somebody blackmailing somebody to say something. I agree. I agree. You know, and you've got two choices when the fork in the road comes and you've been tasked to do something, find something, and you can't find it really in a substantive way. You can say, look, I'm done. I'm done here. It's not here. And that's the high road, and that's the hard ethical thing to do. Or you can go, God darn it, now I've got to kind of salvage this,

and my, you know, kind of a twisty way now I've got to salvage this and my twisty way, I've got to salvage my legacy by finding something. So he's finding something, whether it has legs or not, whether he's going to go higher and now say, okay, I've discounted this steel bossier somehow, which he's not, by the way, it's not. But he thinks he has. And now I'm going to go after executives at FBI who pressed this crossfire hurricane case. Okay, we still got a special counsel out of it that resulted in all these indictments.

So where are you going with this? I don't know. Yeah. And I think that Garland, a attorney general, Garland is going to tend to let him continue going. I mean, he approved his budget. He's sort of hands off here. He's allowed these indictments to happen. I don't know that he necessarily had a choice, but he certainly, I'm sure, was informed about it. There were, there have been letters that have gone to him from Susman's lawyers before the indictment came out saying, don't let this indictment stand. He, he, let it go forward.

I haven't seen that letter. But he, he's sort of allowing this to go forward. And, and I think that that's, I think a lot of people think that that sucks. But I also think it's probably the best thing to do to avoid even the appearance of politicization. Yeah, I think of the alternative, right? Imagine the headlines.

A.G. steps in and dismisses Durham. Justice, he was on the cost of getting to the truth, right? No, I think the alternative that Garland's taking is smart. Okay, you go with that. That's your story. Yep, get that to a jury Let defense councils take care of you. Let's see where this goes. Sure Okay, yeah, sorry, even pre trial motions after bills of particulars, right? Where where they where they're gonna be asking to dismiss this case either based on materiality and the merits or simply based on the fact that Durham was appointed

under no authority. If I'm defense counsel for either assessment or Denchenko, I'm calling to the witness stand FBI agents and I'm going to ask them the questions. Would you materially rely on Christopher Steele's dossier for anything? Did you, with things have been any different if you knew this truth that Dan Chanko lied about who we thought was on an anonymous call or not? Call Horowitz, call the inspector general.

Oh, call Horowitz. Exactly. So, you know, I, I, I, I, Durham's a bright guy. He must have fought three and four steps ahead here. Yeah, but called Jim Baker. But FBI agents calling Durham a liar is going to be fascinating in in court. Let's see what happens. Yeah, especially with the likes of Jim Baker, Inspector General Horowitz, uh, anybody else who, you know, it's going to be interesting. Yeah, stay, Jim. Yeah, stay tuned for sure.

Thank you so much. Everybody check out the bureau and you have to read the FBI way if you haven't. It's, it's, I tell everybody, Frank, it applies to every facet of life, whether you're running a business or you're trying to get your personal shit in order, whatever it is, the FBI way is a good way. Yeah, that's the, I know, that's the happiest thing about the book for me is people are calling it to all kinds of situations. And it's great. And the paperback will come out in January.

Oh, fancy. Awesome. Got to have a great gift. My birthday is in January, everybody. Of course, I have a copy of the book. But thank you so much. I appreciate your time, Frank. I try.

We'll see you soon. Well, let us know what's coming up on the bureau. Yeah. We've got, uh, every Tuesday, we released a new episode this week. Check it out. We've talked to the FBI's official historian. Who knew, right, that the FBI has in his story. Why?

So we don't repeat the sins of the past. We study things like Black Panthers and the FBI, MLK and the FBI. And he teaches new agents at the academy about this. So we're going to learn about how the FBI preserves his culture while learning from its mistakes. We're also going to learn about how you get your own FBI file or anybody else's for that matter. Yeah, check out this week's episode. Awesome.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Everybody, stick around. We'll be right back with a fantasy indictment leak. Hey everyone, this segment of the show is brought to you by Aura, most credit card companies, do a good job of protecting you against fraudulent purchases, but one of the scammer files for unemployment in your name, or if your social media accounts are hacked. Aura's protection goes well beyond your credit cards, or it protects your online finances, personal information, and tech from online threats.

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That's Aura-a-u-r-a.com-msw. All right, everybody. Welcome back. Are you ready for sabotage? And this story comes from Murray Was. Any longtime listener, Muller She wrote, knows his work. Was broke more than two dozen significant stories regarding Special Counsel Robert Muller's investigation, focusing primarily on whether Trump obstructed justice. He did. The stories appeared in the New York review of books, the New York Times, Vox, and foreign policy. Wash broke the first story, disclosing that former FBI director

Comey had corroborated with witnesses when it came to his allegations that Trump ordered him to shut down an FBI investigation into Flynn. Remember that? Special counsel Mueller investigated Komi's allegations as potential obstruction of justice. Trump and his political supporters had prior to a wasa story argued that Trump would not face serious legal jeopardy as a result of Komi's allegations because whatever was said or transpired was based solely on the word of the president

of the United States versus the FBI director. He had fired. We have to keep in mind that it's one person's record of what happened. That was R&C chair, Rana Romney McDaniel. She said on Fox News, the only two people who know what happened were the president Jim Comey. Guess what, Rana? Remember the Komi five? Remember these from early kitchen days episodes on June 7th, 2017, a reporting box was disclosed that Komi contemporaneously spoke at length with three of his top aids about the president ordering to shut down the investigation of Flynn. Was wrote, quote, those three officials, according to people familiar with the details, were Jim Rabicki, Komi's chief of staff and senior counselor James Baker, who is now wrapped up in

this assessment indictment by the illegitimate Durham investigating the oranges and the FBI general counsel. He was the FBI general counsel and Andy McCabe, the bureau's deputy director. We all know what happened to them. Comie himself confirmed that this was a case when he testified to the Senate Intelligence Committee the following day in happened to them. Comey himself confirmed that this was a case when he testified to the Senate Intelligence Committee the following day in response to questions. It was prompted by the WASH story.

WASH also was one of the first reporters to disclose how Trump attempted to exploit the DOJ to improperly investigate his perceived political enemies. On November 9, 2018, WASH reported in Vox that then acting Attorney General Matthew F. Whitaker, privately provided advice to the president last year on how the White House might be able to pressure the Justice Department to investigate the president's political adversaries. More specifically also disclosing for the first time that Whitaker had counseled the president in private on how the White House might be able to pressure the Justice Department to name a special counsel to investigate Hillary Clinton.

And this week, Murray was reached out to me on Twitter with his latest, which I immediately retweeted and is now this week's sabotage. Was writes the following for the Guardian, quote, federal prosecutors in the Southern District have compiled a list of more than two dozen specific acts by Rudy Giuliani, Tonzing, and DeGeneva as to how to advance their personal and political interests in their or the personal and political interests of a group of Ukrainian prosecutors and political factions in Ukraine with which they were aligned. Prosecutors considered each one of these acts to be crucial evidence of a potential violation of the law. In a previously undisclosed episode,

the Guardian has learned that federal investigators have uncovered extensive detailed plans devised by Lutzenko, that's a former Ukrainian prosecutor, and approved by Giuliani by which they would announce and promote an investigation of Joe Biden and his son Hunter in Ukraine to help boost Trump's chances of re-election. Investigators as early as last year obtained emails received in Scent by Loot Senko

describing various elements of the scheme. And that's according to a source close to the investigation. This is a new info. Trump and Conservative news outlets from 2019 until the present day have made baseless allegations since thoroughly debunked that Biden is vice-president pressured Ukraine to fire its prosecutor general for investigating Burisma upon whose board hunter Biden sat Trump claimed this without evidence and that Biden sought the firing of the prosecutor so his son would escape scrutiny

Trump hoped to make the allegations of centerpiece of his reelection campaign as part of that effort Lutzenko and then prosecutor general of Ukraine and campaign. It's part of that effort. Lut Senko and then prosecutor general of Ukraine, analogous to the attorney general in the United States, agreed to publicly announce a criminal investigation in Ukraine of Biden and Hunter. Lut Senko, simultaneously had been a driving force to award Giuliani to Zing and DeGeneva,

the hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal retainers in contracts, according to the same sources. Only the unexpected election of the new president, Volodymyr Zelensky, with whom the plotting Ukrainian prosecutors had little or no influence led them to abandon their plan. Although only briefly, because Trump was obsessed with getting it back on track as soon as possible. And to that end, in July of 2019, Trump made his infamous perfect call to Zalinsky. At the time he was withholding 400 million in military aid to Ukraine.

We know this story well. Federal investigators have obtained a document and witness statements detailing how the three Ukrainian prosecutors would, at Giuliani's behest, help Trump and Giuliani promote the Biden-Ukrain allegations, even if there was no truth in them. First, Lutzenko would publicly declare he was reopening a long-dormen investigation of Berisma, and that the Biden's were under investigation as part of that inquiry. Luttsanka's deputy, one of them, named Kulik, would take charge of the portion of the investigation that focused on the Biden's, and publicly verify any allegations of wrongdoing on their

part, and finally, Shokin, former prosecutor general of Ukraine, who had previously investigated barisma, agreed to allege publicly that Biden had fired him to quash an investigation of barisma. He conducted earlier. Giuliani and Lutzenko reached a preliminary agreement in March of 2019 between Giuliani and the Ukrainian Ministry of Justice and the Republic of Ukraine to assist Ukraine in recovering money and overseas bank accounts, Lutenko said was owed to the government of Ukraine. Various drafts of the contracts called for Giuliani to receive either $300 or $500,000 for his work.

Then acting on Giuliani's strong recommendation, Lutenko, Kulik and Shokan agreed to pay two lawyers, And Lutzenko, Kulik, and Shokin agreed to pay two lawyers, Tonzig and Degeniva, at least a quarter of a million dollars to represent them, as a means to publicize their various allegations about the Biden's. On 12 April 2019, Tonzig and Degeniva sent a draft retainer to Lutzenko and Kulik, agreeing to represent both men and help uncover

evidence of illegal conducting Ukraine, regarding the United States and apparent reference to the allegations about the Biden's. That's $125,000 retainer. Three days later on, April 15, Tonzing in the Gen of Us and a similar retainer to Shokin, agreeing to represent him for the purpose of collective evidence regarding his March 2016 firing as prosecutor general of Ukraine and the role of collective evidence regarding his March 2016 firing as prosecutor general of Ukraine and the role of the vice president, Joe Biden, in that firing and presenting such evidence to us and foreign authorities. That was $125,000 total, quarter of a million.

But a week later, their plans were suddenly upended when Ukraine overwhelmingly elected the Vladimir Zelensky. The draft retainer between toansing and togenova in the Ukrainian's demonstrates that compliance with FERA was on their mind and they know what it is. Because the draft contracts for all three stated client acknowledges that he has been advised that the firm's services may entail services subject to the mandatory disclosure under United States law in particular the Foreign Agents Registration Act, requiring the firm to register as a foreign agent and report some of its activities on behalf of particular political parties

or entities. That's in the fucking retainer. So DeGeneva and Tonzeng and Giuliani can't turn around and say, oh, no, fairer. Can't be too dumb to crime when you put it in black and white. Federal investigators have also reviewed records and question witnesses regarding an instance where Tonzing had registered as a foreign agent. Tonzing previously represented the Kurdistan Democratic Party, largest political party in Iraqi Kurdistan, and the parties representatives in the United States and Canada.

That 2017 representation might prove to be powerful evidence for prosecutors if they were to charge Tonzing because it demonstrates both her familiarity and experience with the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Another incentive for to housing to Genove on Giuliani to avoid registering as foreign agents was that their work required secrecy. Although Poroshenko, the outgoing president, was willing to go along with backing the investigation into the Biden's, so Lensky was not. Because there was no factual basis. And they refused to proceed. And that's when Trump and Giuliani

engaged in their campaign to force Lensky to announce such an investigation by withholding $400 million in military aid. Still wanting to aid Trump and Giuliani, but not wanting to have to publicly disclose details of their activities, toning into Genova moved forward, with providing pretty much the same services to the three Ukrainians, but without a formal retainer letter and no longer seeking to be paid. Test capillot, a Washington-based attorney, who has counseled clients on phara matters. For more than a decade, says that providing services for a foreign client free or not

executing a formal contract does not excuse you from registering as a foreign agent and disclosing their activities to the public in almost all such instances. Got our prosecutors have identified more than two dozen specific acts by Juliana Tonstein and DeGenernava, the non-disclosure of which they believe constitutes evidence of fair violations. These include everything from attempting to obtain a visa for Shoken to visit the US to having Trump fire the US ambassador to Ukraine, who the Ukrainian prosecutors considered an adversary to Degeniva amplifying their story on Fox News, all part of

lobbying for foreign country without registering. Papers unsealed in federal court in the Southern District on 28 September shed further light on the investigation. They described materials, federal prosecutors of sought, including quote, retainer agreements with any Ukrainian national, including former prosecutor general Yuri Lutsenko and quote, evidence of knowledge of feral laws. That's that what what was was just talking about the fact that it's in the retainer hey we might have to disclose we don't want to so then

they went to work for free and didn't get paid wonder where that money came from eventually the answer is Dmitry Fertosh the answer is Fraud Guarantee The answer is Fraud Guarantee. And a source who has seen the search warrant for Giuliani says it also listed some 12 people investigators are seeking information on those include all three Ukrainian prosecutors, Lutsenko, Shokun and Kulik. And the search warrant also sought any records in Giuliani's possession relevant to his communications with Tonzengigeniva. Oh, probably maybe some communication about phara or registering that is proof that they know the phara laws.

Anyway, please support the Guardian. Please follow Murray Was for crucial reporting on ongoing investigations that matter to us. And with that, let's play the fantasy indictment league. I'm gonna be a dine. No, it is gonna be a... Dine it! I'm gonna be a dick. And Dine it!

I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick!

I'm gonna be a dick! And Dine it! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick! I'm gonna be a dick!genova, boom. And then I'm going to add to my team because I decided I can pick 10 now because I made this whole thing up. Gates, super seating Weiselberg, super seating Trump org, and a Tom Barich plea agreement. Anyway, those are my picks. And that is the show. Until next week, please take care of yourself, take

care of each other, take care of the planet, and take care of your mental health. I'm Ben Ellison Gill, and this is Muller She Wrote. Muller She Wrote is written and produced by Ellison Gill in partnership with MSW Media. Sound designed in engineering, or by Molly Hockey, Jesse Egan is our copywriter and our art and web designer by Joelle Reader at Moxie Design Studios. Muller She wrote as a proud member of MSW Media, a group of creator-owned podcasts focused on news, justice, and politics. For more information, visit MSW Media.com.

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Who can stop? They might be giants and their liberal rocket gender. Who? No one. This had to pay for it with somebody else's money. you