Jack - Low Info Finger-Pointing

Episode Date: September 14, 2025

The suspect in the shooting of Charlie Kirk has surrendered himself to authorities as more details emerge about him and his family.Three former top FBI officials sue the government alleging they were terminated for political reasons, and outlining the problems with purging the FBI of experts.More cases are dropped as Department of Justice prosecutors continue to fail to return indictments.The Department of Justice asks the court to keep secret the names of two people who received large payments from Jeffrey Epstein.Plus listener questions…Do you have questions for the pod?  Get this new customer offer and your 3-month Unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at MINTMOBILE.com/UNJUST Follow AG Substack|MuellershewroteBlueSky|@muellershewroteAndrew McCabe isn’t on social media, but you can buy his book The ThreatThe Threat: How the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and TrumpWe would like to know more about our listeners. Please participate in this brief surveyListener Survey and CommentsThis Show is Available Ad-Free And Early For Patreon and Supercast Supporters at the Justice Enforcers level and above:https://dailybeans.supercast.techOrhttps://patreon.com/thedailybeansOr when you subscribe on Apple Podcastshttps://apple.co/3YNpW3P

The suspect in the shooting of Charlie Kirk has surrendered himself to authorities as more details emerge about him and his family. Three former top FBI officials have sued the government, alleging they were terminated for political reasons and outlining the problems with purging the FBI of experts. More cases are dropped as Department of Justice prosecutors continue to fail to retain. turn indictments. And the Department of Justice has asked the court to keep secret the names of two people who receive large payments from Jeffrey Epstein. This is unjustified. Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 34 of Unjustified. It's Sunday, September 14th, 2025. I'm Allison Gill. And I'm Andy McCabe. All right. We have a lot to cover this week, and we're going to start with the story that's captivated and horrified the country over the last few days, and that is the assassination of Charlie Kirk. I've been talking about it nonstop on CNN since it happened, but I want to give the unjustified community a chance to go deeper than my typical one-minute sound bite. So first of all, huge props to the men and women of the FBI, who once again threw everything they had into a very hard investigation and brought it together in very short time.

They are the best in the world at big complicated investigations, and they prove that again here in Utah, thank God. But if we're going to go deeper, we need to talk about what this attack tells us about how the FBI and DOJ have changed in the last few months. If you're a regular listener to this podcast, you've already heard us talk at length about the Trump administration's overhaul of the FBI and how gutting certain units, reassigning agents to help ICE with mass deportations or purging leaders

with decades of experience, how all those things could hurt the mission of the agency. Yes. And again, hats off to the career FBI agents at the field office on the ground. Right. Yes. Yes. Despite what leadership has done

to the agency, including the leadership of the field office there in Utah. And we'll talk about that in a minute. I'm sure they did the best with, you know, with what they had. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what, you know, that's where the rubber meets the road.

It's the career agents and analysts and professional support staff who, you know, don't really give a rat's ass, excuse my French, about politics and are just very dedicated to the mission. Right.

So while we can, you know, praise the career folks on the ground, we still need to take a look at the top and the structure of the FBI and what's going on and how that impacted this. Because Kosh, his vision for the FBI was put to the test this week, as you said, because I'm sure as you've

heard by now, Charlie Kirk was shot and killed at an event last Wednesday at the Utah Valley University. I'm not sure I would characterize it as an assassination, but it's, he was shot and killed. Yeah. So the Times reported on Thursday morning, a day after hastily suggesting the person who gunned down Charlie Kirk was in custody, Kosh Patel, the FBI director, convened an online meeting with 200 agents around the country to discuss the manhunt, and it was a tense affair. Mr. Patel and his deputy Bongino made it clear that they were under intense pressure to catch the killer of Mr. Kirk. They expressed themselves with such fierce urgency that in view of some of the participants, it hinted at another motive to prove that they were up to the task.

The killing of Mr. Kirk on Wednesday not only poses a challenge to agents racing to find the shooter, It also represents a grave leadership test for Mr. Patel. His swift pronouncements about the inquiry have revived concerns about his lack of experience, his obsession with social media, and his purge of some of the Bureau's most experienced investigators, according to current and former officials, most of whom spoke on the sensitive matter on the condition of anonymity. Whether Mr. Patel can overcome his embarrassing early stumble in posts online about the Kirk investigation remains to be seen. The FBI director's actions have already invited scorn and scrutiny from the Bureau's workforce and some senior officials at the Justice Department who think his behavior has eroded public confidence in the FBI.

Yeah, and I'm wondering which senior officials at the Justice Department, who are left. Yeah, he's even left to have that opinion, but... Right. Now, Patel's critics have also expressed concern that a wave of firings and forced retirements, which started before Patel was confirmed but continued when he took over, could hamper the Bureau's ability to manage complex investigations like the Kirk case.

And Andy, this is what you and I have been talking about over and over again for weeks. Hours before the single gun shot hit Mr. Kirk in the neck at Utah Valley University, three former top FBI officials, Brian Driscoll, Stephen Jensen, and Spencer Evans filed a lawsuit

against Mr. Patel, Pam Bondi, and the FBI accusing them of illegally firing them. And Andy, we're going to talk about that lawsuit in more detail. later in the show. The departure of Mr. Driscoll, who served as interim director until Mr. Patel was confirmed, has been a particularly significant blow. Mr. Driscoll was not only one of the FBI's most experienced career agents. He's been a morale booster and a source of organizational stability,

often defending rank-and-file agents targeted for firings or demotions by Trump appointees. Another departure had an even more direct bearing on the Kirk investigation. Over the summer, Mr. Patel's team forced the retirement of Metab Sayyed, a highly regarded former counterterrorism agent, appointed in February to run the Salt Lake City field office. And she was terminated for reasons that remain unclear, according to former officials. Yeah, that's just tragedy, honestly. And Mr. Kirk's shooting, quote, highlights the urgent need for experience study leadership. in moments of political violence. That's Lauren C. Anderson, a former FBI agent who occupied senior leadership posts in the New York

field office and supervised Ms. Syed early in her career. And she went on to say she had an unparalleled expertise in exactly these kinds of investigations. Losing her leadership at this critical moment is a serious blow to the community and the Bureau. Yeah, full disclosure. I know Lauren well and worked many counterterrorism matters with her when I was at headquarters and she was in New York, and, you know, what she's saying there is absolutely true. A person close to Mr. Patel said that his actions have been geared at fostering better coordination and that he is appreciative of the work of agents on the case and determined to succeed.

As if to prove that point, Mr. Patel and Mr. Bongino traveled on Thursday to Utah to personally oversee the investigation. Mr. Patel appeared at an evening news conference that offered few new details. I don't want to ask you about that, Andy, because saying that Kosh Patel wanted better coordination with local law enforcement and possibly flying out with Bongino to prove that point, it seems to have done the opposite because they had to postpone several press conferences in which, investigators wanted to release video that they had and additional photos that they had of the suspect or the person of interest. And that postponed that by several hours. It says they had to wait for them to get there. And then when they were there, they didn't say anything during the press conference at all. So I wanted to ask you, how common is it or how uncommon is it for the director and deputy director to tell people to hold off on the ground on the press conferences and hold

off on getting the help of the public and the investigation to fly themselves out there to just kind of stand there or maybe maybe to fly out at all i haven't i don't think i've ever seen this no you haven't because it's totally uncommon then for a bunch of good reasons um i'm trying to think i remember i remember jim combe went to the went to orlando after in the aftermath of the pulse shooting. But that was days after, many days after. And I think didn't Ray go to Vegas after the Vegas shooting maybe? I don't remember that, but that's entirely possible. But it's typically days, those are disasters in which the investigation is over, right, at the scene of the shooting. And what you're a big part of the next phase of both of those shootings was, you know,

working with the family members of victims who were coming to claim their relatives and working, you know, trying to uphold the spirits of your investigators and of all the people involved in doing that unbelievably emotional and hard work. So wait until, you know, it's, the smoke has cleared a bit a few days of past and then go out there to kind of show support to the troops. This is totally different. This is going out in the middle of a massive manhunt. Now, in the Bureau, when the director shows up at a field office, it imposes a massive burden on the field office. There's all kinds of logistics that the field office has to provide, like security, for instance, there's an entire detail, usually of SWAT agents from the field office who augments the director's security detail and does things like maintains a command post in the hotel 24 hours a day while the director is in town. Whether he's at the hotel or not, there's all kinds of equipment and things that need to be monitored and protected.

So that's just one of many tasks. So all of that burden is a really rough time to impose that on a field office when it's literally all hands on deck matter and everybody's shagging leads, what, 11,000 leads by Thursday night after the delayed press conference on Thursday night. So, yeah, that's not good. slows things down. It also interferes. It is the job of the field office to maintain the relationships with the state and local partners. And that's who you're working the investigation with. If you don't have a good relationship, you can't make one around the campfire of a crisis. You have to have done that in advance. And when the director comes out, it's like the state and locals won't deal with their normal contacts, the head of the field office, really at all.

They want to see the head guy in charge. It's exciting. It's someone they don't get to talk to very often. So it actually creates a bit of an impediment to coordination and the function of the office. Now, times all that by two because not, they didn't get just the director. They got Bongino as well, which I'm not sure that's twice the benefit. But nevertheless, it's twice the burden because he, the deputy director. brings with him some of the very same requirements in terms of security and transportation

and lodging and communications and access to highly classified information that's not typically sent to them in Salt Lake City, you know, that sort of stuff. Signing FISA has to keep happening, all that kind of thing. So, Andy, is this kind of like when, like if a president visits a disaster area before the emergency responders have had a chance to do their job? because the president being there takes cops off the road and takes resources away from the local people who are trying to help folks on the ground. So that's kind of how I envision this. The president doesn't go to the disaster site as the disaster is happening. It doesn't even go

like the next day. Well, Trump does. They usually, if it's close to a golf course, you know, you never know. They usually wait a day or two or three until conditions are stable. Sometimes what they do initially is they go, but they just do a flyover. Because I, It's easier, safer, requires less support on the ground. Eventually, they're there on the ground, talking to first responders and victims and things like that, but usually not until you've got a chance to kind of stabilize the situation and get some aid out to the people who really need it first rather than pull everybody off task to shepherd the president around. So it's the same idea. Sounds more like an impediment. And also talking about impediments, with him tweeting out that

we have a suspect and then saying we let him go. And then we have another one and we had to let him go. Like this constant obsession, as the New York Times puts it, with social media. First of all, I think it's embarrassing to the Bureau. But second of all, I think that putting out that kind of information while an ongoing investigation is happening can be detrimental to the investigation. Can you speak to that? Yeah, absolutely.

It is embarrassing. It undermines your credibility. it's also indicative of a lack of experience because like every rookie, the first big crisis situation that you find yourself in either as a leader or just somebody working it, you realize very quickly that a very high percentage of the information that you get in the first hours or first day of a crisis ends up being wrong. And that's just in every one of them. That's kind of a standard kind of rule that you can live by.

So it takes a fair amount of patience and discretion to like, You want all the information as soon as it comes in, but you have to be, you know, you have to have develop the skills to understand like what's solid and what might not be. So firing off these things, oh, we got him. He's in custody. When you really don't know what you have yet is just shows that you're not, you know, you haven't really been to this rodeo too many times before, which does not, you know, add to the public's confidence in the bureau. You also don't get out in front of your local partners who have to maintain the relationship with the community, you know, they're going to be there dealing with this case for years after you're gone. We learned after

9-11 how important it was for us to have productive, cooperative relationships with our state and local partners as well as our intelligence partners and our foreign partners. And it doesn't matter so much taking credit for the manhunt, right? You want to make sure that you're, state and local partners get the opportunity to be in first place on that because a week later when they find out some guy in their town is buying tons of fertilizer and doesn't have a farm, they're more willing to pick up the phone and call us and say, hey, you know, maybe you guys should come out and take a look at this thing. Like at the end of the day, it's way more important that we get that incoming than what happens with any given case in front of the media.

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, you mentioned. the importance of, you know, but one of the problems with going on social media or making the rookie mistakes about getting the wrong information out, you know, we saw that in a few ways. We had Donald Trump, the president, go on TV on Wednesday night and say that this was a leftist, far left, you know, whatever,

woke Marxist, whatever. Then we had the next morning, Wall Street Journal, put out something that this, arrows on the bullet indicate that this was a, the shooter was transgender and had transgender and anti-fascist ideologies. And so, and that was according to a preliminary law enforcement report. And I want to talk about that information and what we're now learning about maybe some of the things that were scrawled on some of the bullets that were found at the scene and in the gun

and kind of what that says or where that points. And of course, I want to caution everybody. There's a lot of speculation involved in that kind of thing. But the good, well, there's not any really good news in this whole situation, but they have him alive. And so we may be able to learn more about his motives in the coming days. But we're going to talk about some of that information and some of the disinformation right after this break. Stick around. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody. It's AG. Do you struggle with ProCresta saving? I know I did. I kept putting off switching my wireless plan to save money, even though I knew I was overpaying.

That's when I saw MittMobil's best deal of the year, 50% off, unlimited premium wireless. me in thanking MintMobile for sponsoring Unjustified and get this new customer offer and your three-month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash unjust. So stop overspending with big wireless. MintMobile lets you cut your bill down to just $15 a month when you switch. Every plan includes high-speed data plus unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. And the best part, you do not need a new phone and you get to keep your phone number and all of your contacts, everything you already use. Right now, you can grab three months of unlimited premium wireless for Mint Mobile for just $15 a month.

One of our show producers signed up with an old Android phone he had lying around and within days he had a second number set up and running thanks to Mint's quick sim delivery and simple instructions. So for $15 a month, he says he's never had a more budget-friendly opportunity to have a second phone number

and he's glad he made the switch. So don't miss out on three months of unlimited premium wireless for Mint Mobile for $15 a month. But hurry, because this deal ends September 22nd, quit stalling start saving when you make the switch shop plans at mintmobile.com slash unjust that's mintmobile.com slash unjust upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for three months only speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details All right everybody welcome back. Andy let's talk about some of the details that have come out about the shooting first of all I wanted to kind of

go a little bit in depth about the president's address to the country in the middle of an investigation before there was even a suspect and certainly before they had anybody in custody, the president's saying on national television making assumptions that the shooter is a far left or a leftist Democrat, whatever, and that we're going to stop this and, you know, this needs to end. And of course, Jesse Waters on Fox News ran with this and called a civil war and said, we have to, I will avenge your death, Charlie Kirk, against the left-wing lunatics. And then the next morning, the Wall Street Journal, on a single source and a purported internal law enforcement memo, said that there were things written on the bullets that indicated transgender and

anti-fascist ideology. And they left it at that. and put that out. They printed that story without telling us what was written on the bullets, without telling us who wrote the law enforcement memo. And then within an hour or two, the actual ATF pushed back in a public statement to the New York Times saying, this is not what that report said. It seems like misinformation. You know, we want to caution against these kinds of things. That doesn't, that doesn't match our summaries of the reports that we have. So, you know, basically knock it off. Yeah.

But that's the kind of misinformation and disinformation that makes it so dangerous for anybody in the FBI, let alone the director, to go on social media and talk about, we've got somebody in custody. Well, we question them, we let them go. We've got another person of custody, et cetera. and for the president to come out and say something. It's like everybody who wanted Joe Biden to get up and say Donald Trump is an insurrectionist and a seditionist, and I hope Merrick Garland puts him in prison for a lifetime.

That's right. But you don't because the investigation is still ongoing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like we talk about this and you and I have been talking about this on the pod here for months about what a massive departure this administration is in these very fundamental ways. And I think to people, like, when we talk about this in the kind of abstract sense, it's not that appealing. And what we're talking about is, like, this fundamentally different philosophy about politicizing the Department of Justice,

that the president should be able to tell the attorney general to open a criminal investigation on an American, that the president should demand briefings and can get briefings. And he has said that repeatedly in the media. Well, I can get information from any case I want. I'm the chief law enforcement officer of the country, which is not true. But that is such a departure from how things have been done by every other president and attorney general from both parties for so many years, at least since Nixon, right, in the aftermath of Nixon, Watergate.

And now you're seeing the practical reality of it. In the middle of an investigation, in the middle of the manhunt, the president is on television using his incredibly awesome ability to communicate the pulpit of the president is, right? It's like the most powerful. Yeah, and when you say awesome, you mean huge, not radical. Not high quality or eloquent. No. I mean, never mind.

A lot of people will listen. What they hear, who knows. But yeah, he's out there like basically telling people how this went. You're prejudging it. You're getting in front of the criminal justice process. You're likely stepping on this person's due process rights. You are kind of, you know, you're rigging the game, as it were. You're raising all these issues about, you know, the Justice Department, not pursuing the facts, not pursuing the law, not indicting and charging people based upon what they did and after the results of a fair investigation, but rather just executing the president's political will.

And it's really dangerous. It can be damaging in any individual investigation or prosecution. But it's a bad thing for us long term because it changes the way people think about the system and erodes some of our confidence and faith in the fairness of the system. Yeah, agreed. And I have to say on Friday, or maybe it was Thursday night, Friday morning, the days are all melting together for me. I'm also reporting on tons of other news that's happening, and we're going to get to those stories in a little bit later in the show.

But the stuff that is written on the bullets had been revealed. And they were engraved. And I've noticed that, like, I had to look it up, right? I wanted to Google this. And a lot of these phrases come from a video game called Hell Divers 2. So in this game, you are from Super Earth in the 22nd century, which is now a united planet under a system called Managed Democracy. A managed democracy is an authoritarian state that uses propaganda to pretend it's a democracy and convince citizens that they're in a democracy. So the game satirizes authoritarianism and nationalism.

So on one of the bullets, it says, hey, fascist. catch. And so when you hear that in the game, it's irony. It's self-referential. The players are essentially role-playing as the bad guys while engaging in dialogue that criticizes the regime that they actually serve. So it's a, you know, I had to look this up because I don't play this game. I don't play any of them. So it's all, it's all that agreed to me. Yeah. But early on, you know, Wednesday and going into Thursday, my first thought was that this felt like it was like a, what's called a Groyper or a member of the Groyper Army, which is a white nationalist, ultra right wing, people who follow Nick Fuentes, for example, people who think that Maga and

Charlie Kirk are not right wing enough, right? And so we don't know any of that yet. But what we do know are the things that are engraved on the bullets. There's O Chow Bella, Bella Chow. There's, hey, fascist, catch. Then there's a series of arrows, right? Left, right, and then three down arrows. Then the one says notices bulge. And then another one says, if you're reading this,

you're gay, L-M-A-O. And what this comes from is terminally online meme culture, Andy. So Bella Chow is, an old, you know, very old theme, anti-fascist anthem. And it is used in the Hell Divers 2 video game as the embed music or the bed music for montages in a ironic way, right? Because you're actually fascists in the game. So that's the first bullet. Now the second and third bullets kind of go together. Hey, fascist catch and this series of arrows. Now, apparently, And the BBC has said this, and this is what the Wall Street Journal was referring to when they said transgender ideology.

Some people thought that the three arrows were somehow indicative of some transgender. The coded trans-speak? Right. It is not. It is a game controller thing. Remember upright, upright, down, left, right, you know, for Nintendo. It's that, but for this video game and for the PlayStation. So it's the sequence of moves that you have to make on the controller to take a certain action. Yes, and that certain action with that sequence is that it drops a 500-kilogram bomb, an 11-100-pound bomb on your enemy. Okay. And so, hey, fascist catch with that sequence of arrows means, hey.

Yeah, it's coming out of you. I'm dropping a bomb on you. Yeah. Now, the other two things are just trolling memes. I see. The notices bulge is from a trolling meme that originated in the furries community. We can talk about that in detail if you want, but it's basically a homophobic slur. Okay.

Against somebody you're playing a game with or your enemy in the game, as is if you're reading this, you're gay LMAO. And I think, and I'm speculating here, that that bullet was left for Governor Cox to read on television so that you have Governor Cox saying, if you're reading this, you're gay LMAO. So again, just homophobic slurs to insult people. Who knows? We speculate about what it means. We can actually ask the person who's in custody now what that meant. But that's what it is. It's terminally online meme culture. And I think that it was best put. And I'm going to bring this up because this quote really sort of brings home kind of the weird nuances and depths of online gaming culture that we're talking about. But somebody named Alexander Mathieu said on blue sky, a friend and I have been debating whether the alleged Kirk shooter was either, quote, a dirtbag left Comtown Chapo stupid poll poster, or if he was in, quote, irony poison terminally online neo-Nazi Groyper, which show, you know, given the gun casings, which shows just how impenetrable this is going to be for our mainstream media. So now those two things make sense to me because I kind of speak. online culture, is this, in other words, is this a super hard leftist or a super hard righty? And so we don't know a lot of this yet, but I did want to tell everybody where these

phrases came from, not necessarily so we can draw conclusions from them, but just to kind of know their origin. Right. I think it's incredibly important. And it's super hard. I think that comment is correct. It's like almost impossible for people in media. And I think people generally to expand beyond this idea that this guy's got to be a Democrat or this person's got to be a Republican or whatever.

I mean, to be clear, there are some evidence that we have here that's undeniable. The first and most important piece is that this person, this shooter, whose name we are intentionally not using, he wanted Charlie Kirk dead. And Charlie Kirk is a very prominent conservative. So you kind of start with that assumption. But then you have to layer in these other things, right? He made comments apparently to his family members about Charlie Kirk's visit and he didn't like Charlie Kirk and he thought Charlie Kirk was a hate spreader. Okay, so that's more in the column of he's someone who is opposed to the conservative

Charlie Kirk. But now you have these things that he wrote on these bullet casings that were clearly taken from this video. So that opens up a whole world of interpretation. that we have to kind of think differently about. And I say, we, I don't mean me. Like, I'm too old. I'm not a part of this culture.

I was reading these things when they were first announced. I was like, wow, I have no idea what any of that is. So, but young people, people who are in this video game are seen. It's a bit, this speaks clearly to them. And this is a guy we know was in, I mean, we know he was exchanging messages to his roommate over Discord. Discord is a channel that was basically established for gamers to communicate with each other. So there's lots of circumstantial evidence here that he is, you know, invested in that community. The important thing I think is to avoid drawing conclusions now until

we get deeper into this investigation. They're going to be looking at everything they can find that he's ever written or said to anyone. That'll shed some light on this. But it's also possible, as we've seen with other shooters recently, I would point specifically to the Butler shooter last year who shot than Canada Trump, a lot of these people do not have a very clear or consistent ideological position. Yeah, again, Butler guy wanted Trump dead, tried to kill him. No question. But when you look back over the things that he did and the lead up to that, it's hard to say, it's hard to find a very consistent. There's elements of his past that look conservative. There's elements that look anti-conservative, democratic, whatever you want to say. We got to think

differently about in our efforts to try to understand these people who engage in aberrant violent behavior and that's that sometimes they don't fit perfectly into the paradigmatic you know yin and yang way that we tend to look at everything right because we have a two-party system so we're like which one is it right has to be one of the other which one did you sign up with which membership card do you have in your pocket right it's not quite that easy and and i and i will say that we know uh from reporting that he did say he didn't like charlie But I don't, I think, you know, when you said that part because he didn't like him because he was a bigot, I don't know that that's actually been verified. Oh, I don't, I don't think I said that.

Or I didn't, I didn't mean to say that. I simply meant that he, he allegedly told family members that he, that he thought that Charlie Kirk was spreading hate. Oh, okay. I didn't know. I didn't know about that quote. All I knew is that he doesn't like Charlie Kirk. I, I don't know why. Why is it?

Is it because Charlie Kirk is too right wing for him? We're a two left wing for him, and that's where we don't know. Yeah, not further described, yeah. You know, there are other clues on there. There's a lot of people don't know about the Groyper's, which I mentioned, which is Nick Fuentes' group and his Groyper army, which is represented by the Pepe the Frog meme, which I'm sure you've all seen. And there's a photo of him dressed as the Pepe the Frog meme on Halloween. So is he a Groyper? Is he a Nick Fuentes follower?

Because if he is, then he doesn't like Charlie Kirk because he's not right wing enough. Or does he just not like Charlie Kirk because he doesn't like people who say terrible things about, you know, people of color? But if he is in the Groper Army, and by the way, that Chaubella song is one of the themes for people who are in the Groyper Army. It's on their America First playlist. Who knows? But I think the problem is when the Wall Street Journal comes out without any information and makes that allegation, the first impression is what people are. people tend to run with. Yeah.

And it's real hard to undo that first impression. And that's why it's so important, not only for Kosh Patel to keep his mouth shut for a minute, but also for the media to wait and see until we get more facts. Yeah, sure. Like, let's hold off on like declaring war on the other party, like for five minutes. And let's see what the investigation actually produces. There are, there's a whole category of extremist groups. that the FBI thinks of as basically they call them anti-government groups,

but they're like this random mixture of different groups like the groipers or the Pepey the Frog people or the Boogaloo boys who just hate government. Or the Amen Bundy people or the sovereign citizen movement or whatever. They're going to oppose whatever's in power. If that's the correct paradigm to look at this through, and I don't know that it is, well, the government now is concerned. So if you have people out there who are who are kind of dedicated to just whatever, however they define

resistance and opposition that's, you know, it's just another possibility. Bottom line is like the analysts and the agents and the investigators need to work through this in a way that's based on evidence. They also need the freedom to be able to talk about these things and write about them and share analytical pieces with each other internally that have theories that maybe will wash out or maybe will be substantiated. That's part of the work process, not helpful when those work products

start showing up misquoted in the Wall Street Journal or anywhere else. Right. Yeah, agreed. And so we'll be looking out for those details as the investigation continues. I am just mostly concerned about leadership at the FBI, stripping out the qualified people, the top folks in leadership, gutting certain programs and units, reassigning the Joint Terrorism Task Force to help with ICE and the mass deportation

policy that we see. And then having a third of who's left also dedicate their time to helping with the mass deportation. I think it's just dangerous. It leaves us all vulnerable. And I think the inexperience of the leadership in Kosh Patel and Dan Bongino and whoever his babysitter is, the Missouri, U.S. Attorney, Bailey? Bailey, is that his name? Captain Missouri. I don't know. I can't remember. It's just, I'm afraid that not only does it lead or, you know, I guess we miss things like this from, you know, that happened like this. And then also the follow up in the investigation when something terrible like this happens. Yeah, it opens up problems. It starts. to expose cracks in the system.

You know, the role of leadership overseeing these sorts of investigations, any investigations, really, is to maintain the standards of performance and diligence and the workflow and to hold people accountable and ask the tough questions at the table to be able to suss out not just what we know, but what we don't know. And when the people ultimately responsible for the work of the organization don't know those things, then that doesn't happen. So it's a very concerning time at the view. Yeah. And then when you take into account what we talked about a couple of weeks ago, the fact that they're lowering the standards from 18 weeks at Quantico to eight weeks,

and they're going to probably be taken out all the reading exercises. And then also taking away the need for the requirement of bachelor's degree, I think that that also is going to lead to bad things. Yeah, that could be devastating. Yeah. All right, everybody. Speaking of purging people at the Bureau, we're going to talk about the lawsuit filed by Evans Jensen and the Drizz, St. Dris, Brian Driscoll, and some of the interesting and frankly frightening things that it alleges about the FBI. So we're going to do that after the break. Stick around. We'll be right back. Welcome back. All right, let's shift gears and talk about some other news that flew under the radar this week. Alison, you mentioned a lawsuit earlier filed by three former FBI officials. So we're going to focus on that for a minute. CBS reports three senior FBI officials who were abruptly fired last month by Cash Patel, the FBI director, are claiming in a new lawsuit against the Trump administration that they were illegally terminated at the direction of the White House for purely political.

reasons. That sounds kind of familiar. Yeah, huh? Do you know? Yeah, I don't know. I know. I know. I know about a lawsuit like that. Same. The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., Wednesday, alleges Patel told one of the agents that his job as FBI director depended on firing agents involved in past investigations of President Trump. Huh. Patel allegedly said, quote, he had to fire the people his superiors told him to fire because his ability to keep his own job depended on the removal of the agents

who worked on cases involving the president. That's what the lawsuit says. And I just want to go on record here and say that I've seen a lot of lawsuits. I've read a lot of lawsuits. And sometimes when you see a lawsuit filed, you wonder about the credibility of the allegations being made in the lawsuit.

I do not worry about that here. These are three top FBI officials who, I can't imagine, are known for exaggeration or stretching facts. You know, I mean. Distinguished careers, zero disciplinary experiences. Like, these guys are in a very strong position. They also have incredibly strong counsel in the form of Abby Lowell. So, yeah, I think anything that made its way into this complaint, you can put a lot of stock behind that.

Yeah, and exactly. And when we talk about how the presumption of regularity is gone for DOJ lawyers, it still probably remains for folks like this. Yeah. Now, here's a quote. Patel explained there was nothing anyone could do to stop these or any other firings because the FBI tried to put the president in jail and he hasn't forgotten it. That's what the complaint claims.

And that's a quote. According to the complaint, former FBI agent Brian Driscoll indicated he believed Patel was referring to his superiors at the White House and the Justice Department, which Patel did not deny. The three fired agents who brought the case were decorated veterans of the agency who had served in senior roles. One of them, Driscoll, had briefly been acting FBI director while Patel was going through the Senate confirmation process. Steve Jensen served as assistant director in charge of the Washington, D.C. field office. Spencer Evans had once led the Las Vegas field office, but by the time he was fired, he had been removed from that position and was being

relocated to the Huntsville, Alabama office. The three agents, as well as two others who are not part of the lawsuit, were abruptly fired in early August in a leadership purge without public comment and with little explanation. None of them had reached retirement age, depriving them of their full pensions. And that's interesting, relocating Spencer Evans to Huntsville from Vegas. That's exactly where they tried to relocate Syed from the Utah field office? I've heard that tactic used among a number of FBI people. That is considered like a harassing change of assignment. To sending people to Huntsville?

Why Huntsville? Why Huntsville? And so that's emerged in a lot of these cases where people have been kind of threatened with or subjected to a transfer to Huntsville. The Huntsville is this massive base. It's the Huntsville Arsenal, a huge piece of federal property. NASA is there. There's a lot of military stuff there.

And the FBI has been moving a number of functions there. There's a big cyber cohort there. There's a lot of admin stuff there now. But it is obviously pretty far from the major field offices where the action takes place. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of when Mick Mulvaney said we have this great new trick to get rid of people that we don't like. we move them out of their, you know, comfort zones in, you know, across the country. And I don't have any experience with that either.

All right. This goes on to say Driscoll said of the lawsuit in a statement, quote, I hope this effort results in protecting others who did no harm and committed no misconduct from wrongful consequences. The American people deserve an FBI made up of professionals who can serve righteously and confidently with no fear of inappropriately applied pressure or wrongful termination. Now, in his statement, Evan said the public's confidence in the FBI, quote, hinges on the commitment of every FBI employee from the newest special agent to the director to relentlessly adhere to the rule of law without fear or favor. And another quote, Americans should demand FBI leaders who make decisions based solely on the facts of an investigation and never on the desired outcome of one.

Jensen said in his statement that he joined the lawsuit to champion the values of truth and justice for those who can. continue to serve in the FBI. In filing the suit, Jensen said, we aim to reestablish the highest standards of justice and ensure that every American, particularly those entrusted with the immense authority of federal law enforcement, respects, and obeys the law. Abby David Lowell, who is representing them,

said the Trump administration's termination of these men was illegal. Yeah, and I have to say, whenever you see a quote attributed to like Kosh Patel or Emil Bovey by any of these men. I have to imagine that every time there was a meeting with leadership and Driscoll and Evans and Jensen, that they took copious notes. I have a feeling that they're very good at taking

contemporaneous notes about meetings that they've had. I mean, you do it every day. You do it in every interview. You do it every meeting you go to. I had dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of notebooks, of course, meticulously labeled chronological order that I unfortunately had to leave behind when I left. But, yeah, I would expect most agents do that. Yeah.

And the lawsuit specifically alleges that the FBI was pressured by White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, who wanted, quote, to see personnel action like reassignment, removals, and terminations at the FBI, similar to the firings and reassignments of senior attorneys at the Department of Justice that had occurred since January 20th, 2025. So Stephen Miller is partly behind this. Yeah. One focus of the purge involved FBI employees who were part of the January 6 investigations, according to the complaint. The suit alleges that Emil Bovi, who at the time was a senior top Justice Department official, told Driscoll about, quote, pressure he was receiving from Stephen Miller to conduct summary firing. hearings of agents.

Mr. Trump later appointed Bovi to the U.S. Court of Appeals. Driscoll said that when he raised concerns that these actions would rattle rank and file agents, Bovi's response took him by surprise. Quote, Bovi stated that the creation of panic and anxiety in the workforce was the intent, the lawsuit alleges. My gosh. Yeah. That's like to say that out loud and to have somebody as,

credible as Driscoll say that's what he said. Yeah, you know, it's the vindictive punishment is the purpose. Right. And Russ Vaught has said the trauma. We want to cause trauma. That's right. That's right. In the federal agencies. Yeah, yeah. Now, according to the lawsuit, Trump transition team members reached out to Driscoll about assuming a senior leadership role in an acting capacity. And he soon learned he was going to be the acting deputy the FBI director. After agreeing to be vetted for the position, according to the complaint,

Driscoll was questioned by a 29-year-old transition aide who asked him a series of questions that seemed to seek information about his political loyalties. Among the questions recounted by Driscoll in the lawsuit, who did you vote for? Do you agree that the FBI agents who stormed Mar-a-Lago to include the rank and file should be held accountable? Stormed Mar-a-Lago. What are your thoughts on DEI? And have you voted for a Democrat in the last five elections? So to be a career agent with decades of experience, have a 29-year-old sit across from you and ask who you voted for. And what do you think about the FBI agents who stormed Mar-a-Lago is pretty telling? Yeah. And I think as the suit details, Driscoll's response,

or I should say non-response, some of these questions was classic. I mean, he just flat out refuses to answer the questions about who he voted for and whether or not he ever voted for a Democrat on the basis of the fact that it's a Hatch Act violation. There is a law that says you're not allowed to ask the people who work for you or in the workplace who they voted for when you're in government. So, yeah, just crazy. Yeah, agreed. And I encourage everyone to read the lawsuit. There's a lot of gems in here. Here's a paragraph. Bov's

efforts did, however, create a groundswell of support within the FBI for Driscoll and Kassain's leadership. Kassain was the guy who was made the interim deputy director. Rank and file agents appeared to appreciate that the two men were the reasons the country had not been catapulted into a national security emergency brought on by suspected mass firings at the FBI. Bovie told Driscoll that he was angry that in parody videos apparently created by FBI employees, Bovie was portrayed as the Batman villain Bain while Driscoll was portrayed as Batman. That's an actual complaint that Emil Bovey came to Driscoll with. Driscoll responded he didn't make the video, nor can he control unknown individuals' feelings or expressions of said feelings.

I've seen the Bain videos. They're pretty funny. I've got to find that. I've sent them to you. I should share them on social media. You can also search for them on social media. I'm pretty sure they're out there. I'm not sure. Anyway, so this lawsuit, it's a very long lawsuit.

Abby Lowell is incredible. The reputation and believability and credibility and veracity of the claims made in this lawsuit, I mean, my lawsuits are pretty credible. But these three guys who've worked at the. FBI for so many years, I can't imagine like a more credible group of people to sue the FBI and Pam Bondi and Kash Patel for wrongful termination. And I'm behind them. And we're going to cover it. We'll follow it here on Unjustified. Absolutely. From start to finish. Yeah. All right, everybody. We just have a couple quick stories to go. And then we're going to take a listener question or two,

but we have to take one last quick break. Stick around. We'll be right back. All right, everybody, welcome back. Like I said, a couple more quick stories before we get to listener questions this week. And if you have a question, there's a link in the show notes that you can click on and fill out a form. And we will get your question. This is yet another failure to return an indictment, as reported by WUSA 9. And this is going to sound familiar, but it's not. It's a different one.

because I read it and I was like, didn't this happen already? No. Federal prosecutors moved to dismiss a case Friday after a grand jury declined earlier this week to indict a woman accused of threatening the president. So far, I'm like, yeah, we've had like three of them. Didn't we do this last week? This is another woman saying something about the president. Okay, go ahead.

Yep, different one. And they bring it up later, you'll hear. In a one-page filing, U.S. attorney Janine Piro's office asked a judge to dismiss a felony threats charged against 49-year-old Natalie Rose Jones of New York. And again, I know it sounds familiar, but Jones is a different case. That's right. Jones was charged last month with allegedly making threats online against President Donald Trump. A magistrate judge initially ordered her detained, but the chief judge of D.C.'s federal court later reverse that, saying the alleged threats appeared to be no more than, quote, rantings. I'm familiar with ranting. I do that a lot.

Jones, who formerly worked as a pharmacist in Indiana, is one of at least seven instances in which a D.C. grand jury has refused to support charges brought by Piro's office since the federal surge in the city began last month. Prosecutors dismissed similar charges Thursday against another man accused of threatening the president, Edward Dana, after a grand jury declined to indict him on a felony charge. Yep. And it's different from the other woman who was, accused of threatening Donald Trump, which was also dismissed. So these are all different cases. I have lost track. Last week, we were up to nine high profile cases. Yeah. I'm sure it's close to 20 by now. But they're just unable to get these indictments from grand juries. And hey, power to the jury,

power to the people. There you go. And to finish this story up, Andy D.C. District Court Chief Judge Bowsberg granted Jones released last month and said, prosecutors appear to have put more weight on her alleged threats than even the Secret Service because they visited her New York apartment and did not arrest her. That doesn't help the case at all, gentlemen. Come on. Oh, Lord. All right. And our final story before questions. This is from NBC. The Justice Department Friday asked a federal judge overseeing the case of deceased sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein to deny a request, a request from NBC News, to unseal the names of two associates who received large payments from him in 2018. This isn't a court filing. The Justice

Department cited privacy concerns expressed by the two individuals as the reason for not making their names public. So transparent, we're going to get all the Epstein files out there except the names of these two rich people. Apparently not. Keep them secret. First associate, the first one, received a payment of $100,000 from Epstein, and the second one got $250,000, both in 2018. Days after the Miami Herald began publishing a series of investigative stories where the victims criticized a plea deal that he received in Florida in 2008. And if you look up these reports from Julie K. Brown, who did an incredible job for the Miami Herald in reporting all of this stuff back in the day, there were four co-conspirators

named in the non-prosecution agreement, and two of them are these two people. And so NBC has said, reveal the names. And the DOJ has said, no, please don't, keep them private. And these are associates. These are co-conspirators of Epstein and Maxwell. And the judge hasn't ruled yet, but that's what the super transparent Department of Justice and Trump administration is doing with the Epstein files this week. All right. What questions do we have?

All right. So we have two. The first one's actually a correction, not a question. And I thought this is so important. I had to bring it up first. It comes to us from Mel, who said, told us to live long and prosper. You see where this is going. She says, oh, please tell Dr. A.G.

That I am for the first time so disappointed in her. Oh, no. Yeah, here you go. It's Dr. McCoy, who accidentally goes back in time in City on the Edge of Forever and saves Edith Keeler, who does not make out with Jim Kirk, which was my suggestion last week. Granted, that's a very short list of female guest characters who don't make out with Jim Kirk.

And then the history is messed up, and Kirk and Spock then have to go back and prevent McCoy from saving her. She goes on to say the Spock quote is spot on, and the punk band name is awesome. Okay. In my defense,

yes, McCoy goes back. McCoy is the one who saves her and screws up all of time. Yes. Right. when Kirk goes back, Kirk falls in love with her and you see bones on one side of the street and Kirk on the other side of the street

and she's walking in the middle of the street and they have to stop both of them from saving her. Or wait, does Kirk actually hold McCoy back? Anyway. You have gone way past my knowledge of... Kirk is like, I have to save her. Or Edith Keeler must die because he's working with his bearskins and stone knives on his thing to look at history and slow it down.

Anyway, I know that. I'm sorry, I didn't go into the full thing. And I'm sorry, I disappointed you with any incorrect information about the city on the edge of forever. I think my sense of this is Mel is going to forgive us for that misleading rendition that we gave last week. But I hope so. All right. Let's move on to, I just have one question here. It's a bit of a long one. but I think it really resonates with some of the stuff we've talked about in the episode.

So this one comes to us from Rose. Rose says, greetings Allison and Andy. The three key FBI officials who are fired in August have now filed a lawsuit, which presents a comprehensive detail and seems ironclad with regard to the case presented against Patel. Given this, what do you think are the chances that the lawsuit succeeds, and more importantly, that the three are reinstated? the other conditions of the lawsuit are met and things like that. Conversely, if the outcome is not favorable in the end, how do you foresee these three high-ranking FBI officials, as well as the countless others who are unlawfully fired, making a living and establishing a second career, given the circumstances under which their careers

came to an end, especially that they are now considered political enemies by this administration. Thank you for your continued insight into the FBI, and my sympathies to you on how this story to organization is currently being challenged. well if driscoll doesn't is not successful in his lawsuit and doesn't get reinstated he's what i would love to start a podcast with him i could tell him how to do that with you um this is we just talked about this first of all i think they're incredibly credible and i think that they have a really good chance of being successful here of course it depends on what the the supreme court eventually does with an appeal and what judge they get but i think i think they should do fine but but

You talk to speak to that bit, Andy, because they're asking for reinstatement. Are they not? Yeah, they are. Okay, so this is a little bit sticky. First of all, they're going to, as long as this administration is in the White House, DOJ will fight this law. This lawsuit and all the other ones, tooth and nail. They are not ever, they're going to, they don't know the word settle or admission of anything. So they're going to have a fight on their hands. said, I think they've got incredible facts. They've got great plaintiffs, as you said, super credible people. They've got good representation. So they're up for the fight. If this drags on to the end beyond this administration, which it very well could, and there's a, you know, change in party in administrations, they could see these cases settled very quickly after that. The first the first inquiry that we got from the Department of Justice was a phone call when I sued challenging my unlawful termination was a phone call that my lawyer received from the lawyer

at the Department of Justice who was handling the case and he received it about 15 minutes after Merrick Garland was sworn in. So there is a, you know, I think what will happen with many of these cases brought by former government officials in the FBI and in other organizations is so many of these cases are going to end up getting settled years from now when this administration is gone because the cases are strong. They didn't, you know, Merritt Garland and his Justice Department did not settle with me because they like me or were all friends. We are not. I don't know Merrick Garland I've never met the man. But as he testified under oath to the Senate, he settled the case because

his Department of Justice lawyers told him that they would likely lose a trial. So I think you could probably say the same for many of these cases, and it will be a massive financial hit, kind of a chicken that comes home to roost to the next DOJ. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with all of that. And that's why I was kind of hoping I would be able to settle my lawsuit before the administration changed hands. But nope, not for me. Here we are. And I think I completely agree with you on that. I think they may need to wait for a considerable amount of time. But I imagine that if this happens five or six years from now and they win reinstatement or a settlement, it'll be for all the back pay.

It would be like they never left. Yeah, the challenging thing is that they haven't hit, they're pretty far from eligibility, right, from retirement. but essentially you can agree to whatever you want in a settlement as long as it's not illegal. And so I think reinstatement is not beyond the possible and some sort of financial settlement that includes back pay and puts them on a course to receive the retirement annuity in the future is probably what they'd be looking for. Yeah, because I was nowhere near retirement and because the Trump administration was still in office when I first started this back in 2019, I was not seeking retirement.

to keep my job. I was just seeking for damages for loss of future pay and back pay. Yep. Yeah. For sure. So that all goes down in the settlement process. But yeah, that's a really good, that's a really good point you made. These things take years. They just take years. It does. It's terrible because you're, you know, while that's going on, you're really in limbo. It can often be financially in limbo. It's super tough on your family. So these folks are going to need some support. As for, you know, other employment opportunities, I actually think they'll do pretty well.

None of them are leaving under a cloud of, you know, alleged wrongdoing. I think everyone knows that these people were political victims, essentially. What will hurt them is that the private sector, if they're seeking positions with corporations and things like that, is essentially afraid of controversy. And so some of them, you know, high profile people or people who become high profile by kind of going after President Trump, sometimes the private sector is like, hey, you know what, we just, we don't want to take a chance of bringing that person on board and losing access to government work or other clients who depend on government work, that sort of thing. So that's an unfortunate aspect of it as well. Yeah. But Driscoll, Evans, everybody, if you're listening, don't do what Charlie McGonigal did.

That's a long list of things that Charlie McGonigle did. Don't go to work for Oleg Deripaska. Just don't. Just don't do it. That's one good one. I could say what not to do when you leave your job at the FBI. All right. Thank you so much for those questions.

Really appreciate it. I'm sorry I let you down. I'm going to go. As pen ends, I will go right now and rewatch the sitting on the edge of forever. Nice. And again, if you have a question you want to send to us, there's a link in the show notes you can click on. It was a rough week. I hope everybody got some rest this weekend. Take some time for yourself. I know I had a pretty hard time this week, mostly with just the gore of everything. Yeah.

And so take care of yourselves and show yourself some grace. That would be my final thought. you have one nothing i could say it'd be better than that you're absolutely right take take a breath get off social media in the internet for five minutes um and just give yourself a chance to wind down yeah don't get caught in a groiper rabbit hole research rabbit hole like i did today do no groping it's just not good for you no griping all right everybody thanks so much we'll see you next week i'm alison gill and i'm andy mcabe Gil, with additional research and analysis by Andrew McCabe.

Sound design and editing is by Molly Hawke, with art and web design by Joelle Reader at Moxie Design Studios. The theme music for Unjustified is written and performed by Ben Folds, and the show is a proud member of the MSW Media Network, a collection of creator-owned independent podcasts dedicated to news, politics, and justice. For more information, please visit MSWMedia.com.