Jack - The Magnitsky Act

Episode Date: November 25, 2017

S1E2 - On this week’s episode of “Mueller, She Wrote” A.G., Jaleesa and Jordan are joined by a very special guest, Aaron J. They discuss The Magnitsky Act, recently leaked Paradise Papers, and Pence’s potential involvement in the Russia-Trump probe.

Hi, I'm Harry Lickman, host of Talking Feds. Around table, the brings together prominent figures from government law and journalism for a dynamic discussion of the most important topics of the day. Each Monday, I'm joined by a slate of Feds favorites at new voices to break down the headlines and give the insider's view of what's going on in Washington and beyond. Plus, side bars explaining important legal concepts read by your favorite celebrities. Find Talking Feds where ever you get your podcasts. So to be clear, Mr. Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs.

That's what he said. That's what he said. That's what I said. That's obviously what our position is. I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time, a two in that campaign. And I didn't have, not have, communications with the Russians. What do I have to get involved with Putin for? I have nothing to do with Putin.

I've never spoken to him. I don't know anything about a mother than he will respect me. Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. So, it is political. You're a communist! No, Mr. Green. Communism is just a red herring. Like all members of the oldest profession I'm a capitalist.

Thank you. Thank you. Hello and welcome to Mueller. She wrote, this is the second week after indictments of the ongoing investigation into Russian meddling in the 2016 election. My name is A.G. I have to go by A.G. because of the Hatch Act. I'm not allowed to associate myself with any political discussions as a

employee of the federal government. So with me as always is Juliusa Johnson, and he's a and we've got Jordan Coburn. Hey, how's it going? And today we have special guest Aaron. I have no longer a Hatch Actress trick but thank you for having me on the show. You're welcome. You can say whatever you want. Woo! And we can call you by your name. You're so fancy.

I feel like you're bragging. There's two A's in here. A, A, Ron. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so this week, we're going to go over a few things. We're going to talk about the Magnetski Act. I'm going to go over some new facts about the investigation that have come out in the

past week. We're going to have the lovely Juliusa talk about the paradise papers. And Jordan's going to go over Mike Pence's involvement in the Russian conspiracy. We're going to have our indictment fantasy league. I've got a new sabotage. I've got a new, you know, recent interesting fact that could throw a wrench into everything and We'll take some questions from from the from the gallery here and then we could talk about what's going to go on next week

so I wanted to open up with the going over the Magnetski Act and Bill Browder's testimony to the Gigi's here committee and the reason I wanted to start with that is because a lot of the facts that came out this week, particularly surrounding Veselnetskaya and the June 2016 meeting, have a lot to do with the Magnetski Act and how it plays a role in pretty much the main and pivotal role in this entire investigation. So I'll just begin to let you know that in July of this year, July 27th actually, which is the day I believe that they arrested Papa Dopolis. Yeah. Big Papa. Bill Browder testified to the Senate Judiciary Committee. And so here's some of the information that came out during that testimony. Bill Browder is the CEO of Hermitage

Capital. That's an investment firm. In the UK, they do all sorts of investments globally, but also work a lot in Russia. And he testified that in 2007, he hired a lawyer named Magnitsky to investigate some corporate identity theft on behalf of the Russian mafia. So some Russian operatives, they're now the FSB formerly KGB, had apparently successfully stolen the corporate identity of three of the subsidiaries of Hermitage Capital and were able to basically steal $230 million of taxes that were paid by Hermmitage to the Russian government. So the Russians stole their own tax money.

And Browder and Magnitsky then filed a complaint with the Russian authorities saying, hey, we found all this corruption. And they thought that the good guys would come and get the bad guys. Right. Turns out there's no such thing as a good guy in Putin's regime. And instead, they arrested Magnitsky. They tortured him and killed him. And he went to several different prisons.

But his health was failing. Basically, he had pancreatitis. And they moved him to a facility that didn't have medical treatment. His health got worse, he was an incredible amounts of pain, and right when he was kind of at the edge of death, they moved him to another prison where he was chained to a bed and beaten with batons until he died. In response, Browder came to the United States and spoke with John McCain and another senator

and they wrote the Magnitsky Act, named after this lawyer who had uncovered the Russian corruption and the stealing of this $230 million, most of which went to Putin beneficiaries, by the way. The Magnitsky Act passed 94 to 2. It was like one of the most, like, easiest. It was one of the easiest bills to pass. It was totally bipartisan. Everyone's like, yeah.

And basically what the Magnitski acts as is that if you, in this particular instance, these guys are going to have sanctions put against them. They're going to be put on the OFAC list. And if anyone else does this kind of thing in the future, we're going to put you on the Magnitski list, which would put you on the OFAC sanctions list. which would put you on the O-Fac sanctions list. The O-Fac sanctions list stands for the Office of Foreign Assets Control.

It's a Treasury group, and if you're on it, it's not just going to freeze your American assets, and Putin has $200 billion stash in banks around the world, mostly that he's collected from the 1% of oligarchs in Russia, where he says, I'll let you live if you give me money pretty much. But he also offers them impunity to do his bidding. So the Magnitsky Act is Putin's single most important policy priority, foreign policy priority, is to repeal the Magnitsky Act. And that's to protect his assets and the assets of the other oligarchs and kleptocrats

who fund him. So in retaliation to the Magnitsky Act, Putin banned all Russian adoptions in the US, which was a terrible thing because so many lives were saved, so many children's lives were saved, because we could adopt Russian children. Well, he banned that. And so now you have to realize that the term adoptions is synonymous with sanctions. When we talk about certain meetings, and I'm sure you've heard this has been out for a while now, when Donald Trump, Jr., and Kushner, and and Manifort everybody met in that June 2016 meeting, it was under the auspices of talking about Russian adoptions. Then Putin hired Vessel Net

Skaya to come over here in 2014 and spearhead a campaign against Browder and to try to get the Magnetski Act repealed. Okay? And the Senators in the Judiciary Committee asked Browder during his testimony this last July, why would she even do that knowing that there's no way you're going to repeal the Magnitsky Act? It's unrepealable. It was past 92. Everybody loves it. Everybody. And so, Browder had a really interesting answer to that. It turns out that the president of the United States has veto power to remove names from the O-Faclists. Oh, wow. So, yes, you're not going to repeal the Magnetski Act,

but if you're picking a part, but if you have a passing in the White House who can remove specific names, he can continue to have access to his assets. It's crazy. And, Veselnetskaya brought a memo to that June 2016 meeting he can continue to have access to his assets. It's crazy. And Vesel Nettskaya brought a memo to that June 2016 meeting with damaging allegations against Browder and gave that to Donald Trump Jr.

This is according to her now, so take that into consideration. But she brought this memo into the 2016 meeting. And just last month, Browder's visa was revoked by the Department of Homeland Security. He's not allowed to return the United States. And he has been receiving death threats. They want to extradite him back to Russia. They want to kill.

Seven other people have also been murdered that had something to do with the Magnetski Act. So that kind of sets this whole thing up with follow the money. Like why? What would the quid pro quo be? You can't get the Magnetski Act repealed. But perhaps if you've got a president who you've given dirt on the campaign of your opponent, maybe he would be a nice and take our names off the living. Exactly. And someone you have dirt on. Yeah. And that's how Russia works. It's

called Compromot. They get these, that's what the whole steel dossier was. Yeah. They get information on people so that they can blackmail them. So that's it. That's the Magnetski act and what's going on with that. Now I want to get to just the facts. We have some new facts that have come out to this case. We didn't have any indictments this week. I didn't think we would. Right. But I remember last week I was like, we didn't have that crazy run up to Mueller Monday where everyone was like, come on, it's going to happen. I was doing a countdown. Everyone's dancing. It was seriously that Monday was some of the best national news I've

spoken up to in a while. So here's some facts from this week. Carter Page, his testimony was released. Now, granted, last week after he testified, he went on CNN and said what he said. Yeah. But some more interesting facts came out. He said, Lewandowski, Clovis, Trump, and Sessions all knew about his trips to Russia.

But he also said that he met with a Russian executive of Rose-Nefed Oil to broker a deal to ease sanctions. What's one good way to ease sanctions? Have the president take your name off the O-Faclost. Another interesting fact this week, it's been reported that Erdogan offered Flynn $15 million to abduct an extra-dite Muslim cleric living in the United States back to Turkey. $15 million. Oh my God. And they were just going to kill him?

Dog the bounty hunter. Yeah, I don't know what they were going to do. Hope Hicks is going to be interviewed this coming week. She is the communications advisor to the White House. It should be interesting because she was also... She could have been one crafting the statements about no Russia collusion. And so she might have inside information on... It did somebody say, well well we're going to say this even though this happened. Exactly. And as I had said before, Vessel Lutzkai had spoken out saying Trump Jr. offered quid pro quo dirt on Hillary in exchange for changes to United States law. She didn't name the Magnitsky Act, but that's her whole purpose in life. She was hired by people in Putin's orbit to get the Magnetski Act repealed and to do a smear campaign on

Bill Browder. And she doesn't have to say it. Again, you can't assume anything. Mewler is the one who's there to get these to tie these things together. Right. And finally, we brought this up last week that we would talk about this this week. Matt Gates, a Republican from Florida, member of the House Judiciary Committee, introduced a resolution calling for the resignation of Mewler. Because Mewler was the FBI director during the Uranium-1 deal, and he didn't bring charges. Okay. Now, it wasn't the FBI's job to review these deals. I think nine other, I'd have to look this up,

but I think nine other agencies approved this deal. There is scant evidence that Hillary, Secretary of State had anything to do with it or that Mueller had approved it in any way, shape, or form. So that's still going on. He's not going to get enough votes to get that to go through. And here's why.

We've got some new polls out. These are CNN polls on Americans' feelings about this investigation. 64 percent say the Russia investigation is a serious matter, while 32% say it's an effort to discredit Trump I wonder what 32% what where have I heard 32% before is that that the same as his approval rating Which is the lowest in history yet still seems still seems high that might be it and I mean it is an effort to discredit him Because And I mean, it is an effort to discredit him because he should be discredited. You just don't have a lot of credit. This is an interesting poll about whether or not the charges brought against, you know,

the Trump campaign so far reflect actual collusion. Right. 39% say the charges reflect widespread coordination between the Trump campaign in Russia. 44% say there is limited coordination between Trump campaign and Russia. 6% say there's no coordination and 11% are unsure. Guys that I believe my math is correct is 83% of America thinks there's some level in collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. Another interesting poll here, 59% say Trump knew about the coordination. And 35% say he didn't.

We're right down around that 30%. Right, our last sweet spot. Yeah, where's those extra 3%? Who are they? And 65% are concerned about contacts between Russia and the Trump campaign. So those are the new facts this week. I've gone over the Menitski Act.

I'd like to turn it over to Jolisa now, who I have assigned a homework paper. Oh, yeah. She's going to discuss a little bit about the Paradise papers with you. We brought this briefly up last week. That was my sabotage. Yes. And that's A good one. Yes.

You know, but as I learned about it last minute and it did kind of throw a wrench into our indictment picks. Absolutely. This was like a week ago. So this document leaked on the fifth and people have been scrambling so many like journalists are into this because this is basically Panama Papers 2.0. So last year there was a leak about the world's richest people storing their money away in offshore investments. And now we have an update to that. It's like over 13 million documents. So that's like, I think they said 120,000 different people

and companies. The most interesting people on the list is this guy named Wilbur Ross, just, you know, Secretary of Commerce, no one important, but he has over 40 different lists or different connections on here. So I believe out of those 44 of them have been tied to a Russian company. And so his whole thing now is, well I don't know these people, I wasn't involved with them, but we have this direct link to him financially. So, not just that. We also have Rex Tillerson, who's involved, not as nearly as much as Wilbur,

but there's this connection to the White House with these papers. And so it's really getting to the point where Donald Trump is getting his economic advisement from people who do this, who store their money in these offshore accounts. And it's not so much about, I think, the moral issue where it's like, well, these rich people are basically, you know, using our taxpayer bridges and our taxpayer hospitals and, you know, driving on our taxpayer roads. That's a separate issue. I think the real issue is if Donald Trump is getting his advice from these people who are doing these things, then how far does it go? And then there's also, there's a rush in here.

I'm getting so worked up. It's like, this is me off. It's like, I gotta breathe. I seriously, I can't believe. I should know that the Paradise Papers have existed for a while. They were only just leaked on that. Exactly, so, and this was also from the Panama Papers

who was in 2016. So, a lot of people have known about this. It's just getting to the point where it's becoming so much more clear. And then there's this guy, a Russian oligarch who I think now is the prime minister to Putin who has stock in Facebook and Twitter. And we found this out because of these papers. So we're finding out about all these different people in the highest positions in Putin's circle of oligarchs who are having a direct impact on our media, or social media, our president. And it's, you know, one thing to say, well, you know, these rich people are mean,

but another thing to say that they're influencing everything we do, everything on a daily basis, that it's coming down to like, everyone should be pissed about this. Anyone that pays taxes should be pissed. Anyone that has Facebook or Twitter should be pissed about this. It's like, I don't know, I feel like we're all being played by Putin. I just, it's one of those things where it's coming to the forefront.

What did you see the CEO of Facebook's testimony when he was grilled by Congress? Well, and Al Franken was like, look, your whole job is to put data points together. Exactly. You couldn't put Russian money with political ads. It's not something we looked at. It's really, really clear right now. And I think that's what people are so freaked out about is that there's no denying it.

It's like you say with the polls. It's not so much about who's involved or to what extent. It's just how do we stop it? You know, how do we have some kind of control over this? Because there is billions of dollars put away. And it's, you can't, I mean, at least I would think. You can't say that this money is not being flooded into our political policies.

I mean, it's so clear. And that's where I think we're left is that we don't really know what to do. There's a flood now of democratic politicians who are trying to really get a grasp on this. But I think everyone is just kind of floored right now. We're just kind of pulling the curtains back and trying to figure out how do we assess this?

How do we separate this money? And I just, I don't know what to do. I'm so crazy. Or, you know, by the nature of things, you shouldn't, we shouldn't know what to do yet. We're still revealing and putting together what's happened. Right. And I think that it's gonna take a while

to understand the scope of it. Exactly. And once we understand the scope of it, then hopefully we can take steps. It's a grasp, yeah. But that's how all things go. Absolutely. You have to understand the scope and then you have to awareness and then action. Definitely.

So, yeah, that's, wow, good old paradise papers. Tillerson, Cone, everybody's involved. Yes, and the Queen of England Taylor Swift, they're all in on it. They're all in. So this name makes me think of a boat drink. When I hear paradise papers, where does that name come from? Well, I had imagined that it comes from the location just facing it on the Panama paper. So is there like a paradise island out there?

Crancaima Islands? Yes, I've always heard about the Swiss banks and now I'm just thinking about all these random little things. I think you just jump from one place to the other at Imagine. I think it's they're all tropical places. Yeah, so they call it or at least the majority of them are. So they call them the paradise papers and like just how they name the Panama papers. So it's interesting. I actually visited the Grand Cayman Islands once on a cruise a few years ago. I've been. Yeah, and then if my memory is correct, their system of government, they intentionally make it so people can only be in power for a very small amount of time. And then when they're out of politics, they're done.

They cannot be involved at all. And it's to try to avoid corruption like that. But then ironically, they have all of these offshore bank accounts going on there. That's not their corruption, though, that's all right. Yeah, that's just so crazy. It's like in their house, they're trying to help. They also have a zero tax structure in terms of income. It's all based on consumption, but in a lot of ways,

that ends up being regressive because there aren't the exemptions on food and other things like there should be for people that are living at the poverty level. Yeah, the below the poverty line folks. Yeah. Alright, well, thank you, Jalisa. Yeah, I'm sorry, you're mad now. I feel like I need to give you a glass of wine or something.

We're both right now. Yeah, I'm a paradise cocktail, please. We should make some cocktails. Maybe next week we'd have cocktail hour. We can design some cocktails around the restaurant investigation We can have the bezel in its guy up. A Mueller Moscow. A Moscow Mueller. There we go. Yeah. A paradise crunch.

A little strange like Trump reaching out. Just drowning or something. I don't know. Oh yeah. Sorry, not like a Kathy Griffin way more like a drowning in all of his The criminality evidence way. I like it. I like it. Please just come after me. I'm not trying to kill Donald Trump. I'm not the judge. I'm not suggesting that.

Yeah. That was her excuse here. Yeah. All right, well Jordan, since you're over there now and I believe I assigned you to talk to us about pens. As of last week you said, what's pens doing with all this stuff? Well, tell us what you found out. Yeah, so did a lot of, you know, just

nitty-gritty research on the exact timeline and how that all folds out. And seeing as that would take a really long time to go through, I'll just go through the really important stuff. But basically, Pence is just sticking with his narrative of, I don't know, I just don't know. No one told me, I don't know. And a lot of things are just very convenient.

It wasn't Flynn fired for misinforming him. Right. Yes. Was it Flynn? Yes. Yes. Yes. That's the first one to go.

Yeah. Yes. So I will go through the timeline just because it's an easy way to tell this little story. It's a fun one. I'm going to start after though, you know, that big meeting happened. So we have June 7th, 2016. Trump promises to reveal Dirt on Hillary. This is after Goldstone offers Dirt on her

to Donald Trump Jr. So that happens. We have a couple days before that, Trump meets with Pence. And then, but Manifort is urging the Pence pick, but really Trump actually wants Christy, right? And then, fun fact. So Trump wants Christy. Kushner doesn't want Christie though, because during Christie's time as he has attorney,

he successfully prosecuted Kushner's father for tax fraud. Red flag. That's like, that's, you know, terrible. That's not Trump. Like, oh, that's, I don't, why my daughter married this Jew? And now, I can't have Christie I can just imagine him just being so mad and I rate Everything I want is being taken from me

Polbra Cita. Yes, can't get you right. Yeah, so I mean things really just I don't think I'm looking good for For pens really in the beginning because you know he got picked over over somebody that was doing something that was you know morally correct to getting someone for tax fraud and this is Chris Christie doing it too and it's like he did a good thing yeah yeah it's like in my pants of course is like you know the the defunding plan parenthood king just a little crazy you know governor just awful but even whatever I digress but basically that's kind of how you know the pen spit comes about Trump doesn't exactly want him but he gets him because Trump's aides leaked that they had picked

uh pens before he could actually you know Trump could try to convince Christy to be with him. So, so then his AIDS like, Manifort, this was in July, July 14, 2016, Trump's like, are you sure I can't do Christy? And they're like, yes, all right, it's already done, you can't go back. So, kind of a rocky start for Pence anyway. Just always, his campaign officials had just seen, they're driving like all of this, just so much more than he actually. He's just like this Oh, yeah, it's like it is sense that he culturally was a lot more comfortable to Christy that you know Christy's from New Jersey

Which technically has a statuary and he's a governor of a purple state, you know He's a Republican in in some some ways But I think he was a more palatable choice to Trump He's always sort of been a wild card in terms of politics anyway. Yeah. You know Trump gave more money to Carter than Reagan. Trump gave more money to the Clinton's and had a close relationship with the Clinton's. Yeah I would have I would have called before this whole fiasco I would have called him a Democrat. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I he was pro abortion not pro abortion but you know. Pro choice. Pro choice. Yeah. But I love abortions. Traffic. So let them know how we really feel.

But but Pence is really a concession to deliver the evangelical vote. And I think in a lot of ways, we still don't really know what Trump thinks, because it seems like a lot of this stuff has been dealt to him from whatever the populist opportunity is. Not what his actual conviction is, private conviction. I think a lot of that was served by Bannon. Yes. You know, so he's like, look, you want to be president, you want to have this base, here's what you have to do, and here's what you have to say.

Yeah. Uh, yeah, and to get the evangelical vote, because, you know, God knows. I'm not intent that Trump isn't exactly not even close. A moral fella. And culturally, you know, leaving politics out of it, you get a sense that he and Christie are a lot more alive. There's a New York New Jersey connection in some ways. Absolutely. That makes sense, wow, yeah.

Yeah, so, you know, Picksies line got killed by 10 million pounds of sludge from New York and New Jersey. Are you talking about Christy and Joe? Or is it someone who predicts that? His name was spandied around as a potential attorney general who got me back to, at least Trump really felt like he owed him. Yeah.

And you get a sense that, you know, abandoned packed that can't that cabinet with people that would be a dog whistle to be evangelicals like like sessions. Yes. Yeah. So fast forwarding, Trump gets elected July 15th is when Trump officially picks Pence publicly. Trump gets elected November 11th 2016 is when Pence officially picks Pence publicly. Trump gets elected. November 11th, 2016 is when Pence officially replaces Christie as that transition team chair in the White House.

And that was, so like right before that, Flynn had actually come into that meeting with Christie as a chair. And this is when Christie's like, what is this? Why is this, why is he here? I don't trust this guy, you know? And then this is when he vodka sitting there and says Quote unquote Flynn is very loyal to my father. He's fine

And so this is when like Flynn starts coming in to stuff. So this is November 11th, 2016 Okay, November 18th. I'll go through quickly on this stuff. November 18th Flynn is named National Security Advisor Same day Democrats. It's for the planner. He's fired Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think he made it 24 days. Yeah. Yes, is the same day.

This is when Rep Cummings, the Democrat from Maryland, he denounces Flynn in this letter to Pence. This is the, he's the ranking member of the House committee on oversight and government reform. So they're basically just exposing all Flynn's like potential conflicts of interest here. With Russia. Right. Yes.

And then, and Turkey. And I was gonna say, they also, Turkey's lobby in ties, right? This is also involved in this letter. Jesus. November 28th, the Trump team acknowledges the letter which they will later try to kind of go back and they disagree on when they got the letter, but they're able to go back through the records.

I don't know if certified male version of what they do in Congress, but basically that happened. They're like, no, you definitely got this. You said you did. We got, late November 2016, Flynn tells his senior advisors that he's scheduled a meeting with Russian ambassador meeting. He's warned and not do this. Does it anyway? And so really then, fast forward to January 15th, Pence says that Flynn's calls

to Russia to the Russian ambassador were completely unrelated to sanctions. It was only a mere coincidence that the day Obama decides to increase sanctions on Russia, he winds up giving a call to the ambassador to Russia. So this is when it starts looking like, okay, what's your game here, Pence? And then this is when he just really starts just denying everything. He's just like, I didn't know, I didn't know at all. People are covering his ass for him like I think Flynn was kind of a like a casualty of Pence having to say he didn't that you know like like the fall guy for Pence just pretty much right? Yeah, like to keep it to keep it to keep it off pants exactly. What do you think that's possible? Like he wasn't playing that way, but I think Pence was really focused on culture and domestic issues and was

very and he's, and he's an executive, he's not governor, he was a legislator and I think he was very concerned that Flynn had grown beyond his ability and probably should have never been a flag officer, he probably should have ended a colonel and I think that he didn't trust him. You know, for whatever his politics are that may be broken, I think that Pence is probably a straight shooter who was really not comfortable with him in the room. Yeah, I agree. And just involved with a bunch of buffoons, really.

And even though... But don't you do you think Pence knew, though, about the Russia stuff? I think he did. I mean, I just don't, there was a... It's pretty clear you found out in the middle of it. Right. Or...

It's like being offered this great job, and then you get, it's like watching the firm with Tom Cruise Right. Or it's like being offered this great job, and then you get, it's like watching the firm with Tom Cruise. Like, you took the great job, when she get on the inside, you're like, oh my god, this whole thing's corrupt. Yeah. I feel like it's possible he could have known

just because he's so good at playing the straight man, that he thinks he can probably become president after all this and be clean of it. But that makes him more conniving to me, like to even go ahead, stay with this. Yeah, but you gotta have, you gotta have that, you can't just have a smoking gun. Right.

You've gotta have the proof, and if anyone get it, it's Mueller. And if there isn't, then that means there isn't. Right. Personally, I feel, because of how systematic and thorough he is about his, you know, his investigatory style. Right. If Pence comes out clean on the other side, I really think it's because he didn't know. Yeah. I mean, like, later in January, Department of Justice, you know, officially comes out saying

that Flynn lied to Pence, and then that's what everyone's getting behind. But then there's this interview, I forget what new station it was, but like, Privis goes on there and says, there's absolutely no way he could not have, like, they basically ask him, do you think Pence knew about this stuff? And he just says, well, the vice president is filled in on everything. And that's like Ollie says. So it's kind of like... Ryan's Privis said that? Yeah. Yeah. I forgot about Privis. He wasn't even on my radar for...

There have been so many guys that have come out Wow, that's fair as well, but I don't even know who's died yet like it's yeah, you right There's definitely oh, yeah, there was a rinds prebus over there by the fried corn dogs But but yeah, the's a virtualized HG. Thank you, thank you. So yeah, in February, we just have more of this dance of, you know, Flynn saying, I can't remember, you know, we definitely didn't discuss sanctions, then the next day he's saying,

I can't remember if we did exactly what, you know, A.G. said last week about how Trump kind of goes through his, like, I had nothing to do with it Oh, I can't remember if I did I did, but it wasn't my fault, right? Yeah, and that's a demo. Yes, exactly and it seems like You know flinst in of that is short-lived because he's resigned February 13th and Fast forward to March Pence is still saying he had no idea about flinst lobbying in Turkey Fast forward to March, Pence is still saying he had no idea about Flynn's lobbying in Turkey.

Just really sticking to that. It's not changing at all. May 9th, Comey winds up being fired because he was, you know, just quote, basically just bad at his job is what they say. And this is like now the second thing that Pence has been getting himself. First, Ms. Hilling of the Hillary emails. Right. And so, and I wish everyone listening could see AG skipped. And so I wish everyone listening could see AG skipped a couple. This is the second thing Pence really gets himself involved with and it's mainly because the justification that they're giving for wanting a fire, Comey, they revise it to essentially cover up any doubts that it's because he's investigating this collusion with Russia. And then this is where possible obstruction of justice

charges could come against Pence really, is if he was a part of, because Pence claims he didn't help revise that letter. And it was all just other people telling him, telling Trump what to say. But if it comes out that Pence actually helped him write that letter, then that's what he could wind up getting nailed on.

But I'm just gonna fast forward to, there's not too many. I mean, really it's just him saying, I didn't know, I just didn't know this whole time. So just fast forward and kind of to now what happened. So reports start to come out that Pence might be in a potential obstruction of justice case. I did some research on legal experts

that were kind of speculating on this. There doesn't really seem to be a consensus. I think like the question for this segment was just what's his involvement, what's going to be, what happens to him. And then if I may, here. So I got some quotes from some legal, not legal professionals, very degrees on their opinions of it. So I think it'll be interesting to share. Since like I said, there's not really a consensus on what's gonna happen at Penns at this point.

But this first one is from a man named Judge Sugarman, a law professor at Ford University. So he says, if Penns gave any feedback and revising the letter to cover up those intentions and to give disingenuous legal reasons for firing Komi, he is guilty of conspiracy to obstruct justice and aiding and abetting. So that's the first thing really that's gonna... Shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh shhh sh And this is a varying opinion right here from somebody else. So this person, Diane Marie-Mann, Tejas Law at University of Georgia, she says, the likelihood that the vice president could face charges for crimes like obstruction of justice based on what has been reported to date

seems at best slin to none. And part of the reason is that we just don't know. Part of the reason is because I'm from Georgia. Oh, thank you. Sorry, I can't tell you our Georgia listeners. Sorry. Georgia. Sorry, I'm not too much of a Georgia listener. Yeah. Said. And she's just saying that it's just we simply don't know enough about the contents of Trump's

original memo and that's the thing that's going to make it really hard to actually incriminate him. So it kind of just seems like maybe he's just set himself up perfectly to just sort of not get caught or maybe it's more a coordinated thing like fling falling for him or or not like romantic way. Love is in you. It always goes back to gay stuff with this question. What is why? Okay and speaking of which the junior partner, we know what I've looked at Mississippi. People used to always say my Bible study partner is code for the person that you're hucking up with,

but it was inappropriate. Oh, interesting. The thing about putting going off and training with this quote, Judo partner really sounds like a love. A romantic thing. Yeah, we met the governor of South Carolina. It's quote, hiking the Appalachian Trail.

Right. And that's when you go see your mistress. Oh, yeah, I remember that guy. And yeah, in Mississippi, it's meeting with your Bible study partner for an hour. I think if you're having a wife's chance. Yeah, if you're in Russia, it's training with your judo partner. I think that's the least talked about part of this. I think that Putin has a thing for dudes.

Everyone's got, yeah, they're dissecting all of these colloquial. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's got yeah, I like dissecting all of these yeah Putin is very anal just The stance against LGBT generally is what precedes right coming out Thanks Thoudas protest to you But that's when that's been rushes and off. That's been rushes aggressive in most since he's really sort of sees controls Make you wonder about pants. You want it once you will. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

God, what if it comes out that Putin and pants hooked up? That'd be amazing. That'd be better than the PP tapes. They're both pretty handsome. They are. The PP tapes? Yeah, I know. I hate politicians because they're just so attractive.

And you want to hit the shit out here sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. But yeah, just to close this out, as far as, you know, because now the question becomes if this gets taken all the way to impeachment and Trump gets impeached, is Pence actually going to line up being the successor. And I think this quote right here by someone named Andy Wright, a law professor at Savannah Law School, sums up very nicely probably how this, probably how this state of Pence being the successor is.

It is, quote, the more vice president Pence is involved in, untoward, and perhaps illegal conduct by the president or his age, the less viable Pence that successor becomes. So basically, very simple, but just saying, we'll see. It is yet to unfold. As of now, he's sticking with his story and he doesn't have just

By the virtue of him, you know getting involved in the game technically after a lot of the really sketchy stuff happened Maybe he's kind of absolved of of some things, but I like that. That quote is a nice bow on that package. Mm-hmm. Aaron. Yeah, you wanted to talk a little bit about I had brought up briefly Aaron, you wanted to talk a little bit about, I had brought up briefly Flynn's $15 million offer from Erdogan to extradite, well, abducted, extradite is more official, this Muslim cleric, and you had some more insight on that. Yeah, if a Tula Goon is being in the United States since 1999, his religious movement was not at a formal movement, It's sometimes called Hezmat, which means service. And if you could think of a type of modern Islam that embraced, you know, interfaith dialogue,

educational attainment, focus on STEM, this is it. This was an attempt to sort of reconcile Turkey being pulled into radical secularism, and I'm having to abandon Islam. For our listeners, STEM is science. Technology, engineering, and math. So Turkey has got to really complicated history in the sense that, you know, it had a, it was the crossroads of the old world in many ways and was a pretty pragmatic place, but it had a, that Muslim identity. And it's had so many things foisted on it in terms of that muscle identity and it's had so many things foisted on it in terms of

being you know from Istanbul to Constantinople back to Istanbul Yeah, it's still a good song It's a good primer for this as well You know the coup that's taken place is pulled turkey out of what really was a neonation back into something far more dangerous and was a NATO nation back into something far more dangerous and unstable. And the idea that the United States General or Intel Chief would be delivering someone who's had exile here and in a safe place since the 90s to a military coup in Turkey is bizarre to me on that level.

Yeah. And is Trump's view on NATO or his, you know, initial view on NATO at least when he was campaigning at all of concern in that area You know, NATO really existed to protect Europe against the rise of Russia and So many ways The intersection of we know where Europe and Russia meet really is Turkey it is in so many ways It's not just these re-b. In so many ways, it's not just the Easter Bargation. So I think it's really concerning. I think if this was an a Jack Ryan movie,

I think it would be not just a bridge, but several bridges too far. And I think it's one of the more bizarre parts that's emerged from all of this. It's a very good point, yeah. Several bridges too far. Mm-hmm. All right, guys, it's time for the indictment fantasy league. All right, I'm so excited about this.

This is one of my favorite parts of the show. Julie, so we go over our picks. Now, I had believed that we wouldn't have any indictments this week. We did not. I'm always hoping a girl can always dream. But we did make picks and it's not necessarily week by week. It's just when the next round of indictments come. Absolutely.

I decided there were going to be four because at the time we had four unsealed indictments on the docket in that district court where he convenes the grand jury. So if you want to go over those picks again. Definitely. So yes, AG, you had Flynn, Flynn's son, Donald Trump Jr. and Kushner. Okay. So you're for a Picks Jordan. You went with Flynn, Flynn's son as well, Paige and Gordon. And I chose to read one when Flynn, his son, and Rex Paige and Gordon. And I chose three. I want to Flynn, his son, and Rex Tillerson. You thought Tillerson was going to be on the bus? Yes.

All right, well, those would still be my picks if it weren't for this sabotage. Go for it. All right. Remember how I said last week I had some inside information and I couldn't reveal my sources that there were four unsealed indictments on the docket? It turns out there's two district courts that Flynn's convening grand jury is in. And in this past week 85 sealed indictments have been added. 50 in one day. Oh my god.

Now note that a sealed indictment could just be a request for information, a search warrant, a request for search warrant, it could be for any number of things. Okay. But it could also be an indictment. So knowing, knowing that there could be 85 sealed indictments in two district courts where he convenes grand juries. I'm not going to sit here and pick 85 people. I may add a couple to my list. And I'm going to add cone and Lewandowski. And maybe Ryan's pre-biss. I forgot about that fella. And I have Kushner on there. It's important to note Kushner was asked to release a bunch documents regarding the, I think it was the Russia statements. Do you guys remember Kushner? Yeah. Kushner had to join us with stuff. Yeah. And I did want to correct something from last week.

I had confused Kushner and Donald Trump Jr. because it was Donald Trump Jr. who released his statement about that meeting that his dad could or could not have helped him craft Wasn't Kushner got it makes sense. Okay. This is just separately Kushner has documents on on the firing of Comey, right, I think and so that's We may have another correction next week if I'm wrong It sounds about right there. They're both in the chopping box. There's so much going on.

Oh yeah. And the interesting thing is of these 900 things that we're talking about, any one of them is considered kind of a scandal. And there's just so many. I think we have scandal fatigue. I think we have, like, oh, and I mean, like any number of things can happen. I'm excited to see what happens this week, but I'm gonna add Those guys

Knowing there could be a word of 85 and I like this now. We're at about this is six for you So I'm gonna try to match that myself, but it's important to note too that you don't want to indict everybody all at once Right as as I talked about before his mafia style and mob style of Investigation is to go after the little fish and pick them off so he can get to the bigger fish. That's why we... Wheelers is? Yeah, why I did Flynn and Flynn's son because I think Manafort rolled on Flynn's got... Flynn doesn't have a leg to stand on.

If he did have a leg to stand on, it would just be Flynn being indicted or arrested and charged. And then his son, they would use him you know they would use his son as leverage yeah I think he's gonna get him both though so what about you guys do you have any changes you might want to add now that these are 85 on sealed indictments are happening yeah I mean I so I don't want to add I'm definitely keeping my pigs Flynn uh Flynn Jr. page Gordon I'm definitely keeping my pigs fling junior page Gordon. I'm gonna add Kushner to mine. All right.

He's just too in it. Like, yeah, I mean, the statement you were talking about, that was when he was like, oh, well, it's normal to just meet with a foreign government just to see what they have, if they say they have dirt on an opponent, it's normal for someone to go and just see what they're talking about Is it that statement? Is that what they're talking about?

Okay, yeah, and has Carter Page been arrested? I don't believe you. I haven't seen that. I'm gonna put Page and Cone on there if I don't already have them because I think going after these low-level money laundering guys Business dealings is probably it seems to be the way that he's going. That makes sense., yeah. Yeah. So that's eight for you now, very nice. Yeah. I also, quick question. When Flynn testified and he did it under, did he, I was he actually granted immunity or no?

Where they like, they said you're not going to do that, right? Okay, and then he still, okay, got it, okay. So, well then, yeah. All right. Definitely. But you got to remember too, any of this could be a Papa Doppler situation where they've already been arrested and have been working with them.

And I kind of think that about Lewandowski. Because he's just been so quiet for some reason. Yeah. And maybe pre-bist. Like maybe that's why we haven't heard him from... Oh, you know who else? He's keeping up with the news again today in Nunez. Nunez.

Yeah, I think I'm going to add him this week because he's also been pretty hush-hush. He was in the thing about the eclipse the last time I heard of him. And then I would think he would come up by now with all the new developments, but I just remember I haven't heard anything. So I'm gonna add newness. And then that's with the Z, right? Uh, NU, NES. S, okay.

And I don't know why I know that. Yes, I'm glad you do. And then I'm not gonna take off rights because I know we don't know why I know that. Yes, I'm glad you do. And then I'm not going to take off rights because I know we don't get points for being wrong. But I will add Ross, Wilbur Ross, just because he has this interesting storyline now, where I even know he was Secretary of Commerce. I knew I knew who it was.

And now he's doing all these interviews, trying to disconnect himself so far. And he may fizz out, but I'm hoping he sticks around. If that if that's the case I mean he's one of those guys that just has a financial connection that they're going to probably use a lot of financial connection. So I'm just going to add new news and Ross and Kushner yeah I don't know why I missed him the first time it makes perfect sense but that's all for me so. All right well looks like we got those rounded out now so excellent we'll see what happens I don't think we're going to have any further indictments this week, but there's always news that's going to happen. So we'll wait and see and hope X testimony is going to be really interesting.

So now I just wanted to know if you guys had any questions. I want to throw in a wild card on that because I really believe that we're going to see a person that was prominent or people from the Obama administration as a way of insulating people who are is having total integrity. And I think it's an unculturable realization but it's real. I think one of the you know some of the things that Trump's saying now about treating Russia like an ally or a potential ally. These are the same things that were said eight years ago and I think you know with the new president Obama had come in and said,

let's have a reset on this. But after that had failed to happen, you know, there was no attempt at Marshall Planning Russia because they have so many natural resources. But as you've already discussed, it's still a gangster approach to government. It's not an open approach to government. And, you know, all this didn't happen starting in 2016, and we allowed it to happen. We had a sitting executive that had eight years

of Intel briefings, and whether it's someone from the Intel community or whether it's someone from the Department of Justice, I think the wild card that we're gonna see in the indictment is someone from the Obama administration, because this didn't- Do you have any ideas? I have some ideas. I'd say for this week, I'm just going to throw that out as a wild car because I think,

you know, we have to be able to be aware that people didn't see some of this stuff coming, and I think, you know, Obama made very dismissive remarks in the debate with Romney about Russia publicly. The whole work called, they want the policy back. But privately, I think there was still an arrogance. There was a little stick about it. There was an arrogance, I think, that the Cold War was done. And that they had a smaller GDP in South Korea. They can't even light up all five rings in their Olympics

and the world is watching. There's no way that they're, but we forgot they were still really good at something. We underestimated them. We did, this was a small GDP, but they're really damn good at making watches and knives. Outside of oil, Russia doesn't have a huge economy, but they're still really damn good at espionage.

Oh yeah. And I think that there's still a lot of money flowing and people in politics see money and that's on both parties and ambition once capital just like businesses do and I my wild car would be that someone from the Obama administration But definitely from the second term. Yeah, we're gonna see as a way of getting getting a broader support Somebody in the uranium one. Yeah, I think there's so little evidence on that but just on the major players That doesn't mean that there aren't

Lower level Obama administration folks that weren't fully enraptored. I think the Democratic Party right now to really want some Emerging leaders and if they can pin some of this on people they want to go away Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised and we shouldn't be surprised to see that. They say, look, we had some people they in an underestimating Russia. They're on both sides of the aisle and then do the Pontius pilot wash their hands and all these delights look. Really, right? That would be good for everyone. Yeah, absolutely.

Who's a leftist? I'll just mean, yeah, just meaning it's got so many many there's so many mechanisms at work there you first of all you get the the full fairness Aspect of Mueller not just looking not just being one side I guess even though he's a Republican appointed by Republican who's it from a Republican? but yeah, I think it gives it that kind of Takes away that biased acts as back. We used to have such great bipartisan cooperation when it came to national security. We'd argue over education and roads.

Yeah, all domestic stuff. Yeah, and then when it came to defense spending, we disagree on how much and where, but we all agree that we needed it. And that in our big messy family, we're refighted the family reunion, that the American way of doing things still was the best.

And we weren't communist and we weren union, that the American way of doing things still was the best. And we weren't communists and we weren't fascists. And we were Americans. And this is how we did business. And I throw that out there as a wild car because I think it's important to remember that some of us sometimes forget that. And I do think there's some positive aspects to that too. I think there's a lot of positive aspects to that,

but especially with kind of getting that establishment Democrat, you know, I mean, it's so, there's so many two big factions in the Democratic Party right now, and if they don't get their act together, it's gonna be really difficult in 2020. I think 2018 will be pretty easy,

but for an actual presidential election. It's gonna be tough. It could be tough, and they really do need to get some emerging leaders that can both energize people who were of the establishment ilk, but also the progressives. These guys mean business. And they are so, you know, if fixated on Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard, that if you don't give them these more progressive leaders, they aren't going to show up.

Exactly. And you're even seeing that local elections people are smart enough to figure out that if you line yourself with that wing, they'll give you the energy and the canvassing and the support. Fomarising is really a great metric, whether or not you're going to win anymore. No, it's not. You know, Jeb Bush raised the quarter of a billion dollars and it never got to pass single digits. That's true. So it's going to be in votes. It's still not. Yeah, and this last election, you know, last week with the first transgender woman to serve openly, a Sikh guy elected.

We had another real progressive. Yeah. So many black people elected. That had another real progressive, so many black people. That's my band actually. That I know black people. And those are those progressive style Democrats. And so it's going to be really interesting to see how that works out. And that's such a good point that he really should or not should. But I mean the investigation is going to take him real taken, but to make it a kind of a fair

circle of investigation, I think that's a really good idea. Yeah, I think that people that have been asleep at the wheel and totally didn't really shouldn't from everywhere and I think that's what you'll see. Yeah, that's my wild card Joker. I like that. That is so smart to me and it makes so much sense. And it's like these people can't, we can't get in this situation and have this this sort of you know Kind of government as a led by so many business tycoons and then you know these paradise papers and Panama papers and and all of these

All of these things that coming out. It's it's like something something was going on or rather was not going on That allowed for that to happen. Exactly. And those people should also be held accountable. I think that's great. I had a question about that actually, A.G. So with all this stuff coming out about the Paradise Papers,

do you believe that out of this investigation at the very least was going to be a change in policy when it comes to the way the money flows politically? I hope so. I don't know. At this point, it's kind of early to tell. What I'm kind of hoping that comes out of all this is that at the very least, I'll close that loophole

for veto power on the OFACLIST and the MEDISCII Act. Yes, that would be a good goal. I think that it should have congressional approval, not just the president being able to cross the name off. Cross the name off there. And then you can, we've shown you can well that Mueller's working on showing that you can buy an election you can buy a president yeah the entire Congress not so much a little different and I think

that Congress also would want that they would want that power and that's why when they put together that sanctions bill for Russia they were all the whole congress was like Zidett and sounds like You know for all of the things that have been problematic about this administration It's been a fantastic civics lesson for so many people. Yeah, I think all of these we weren't paying attention for Trump Just learning that he doesn't have complete total power Unfortunately, it's been a sitting lesson for the post. But I'm an American.

An American people and also for the conference. I think that after 9-11, we've had 16 years of executive overreach, and the Congress has seated that to the executive so they could go back and put up their hands. Go to the point. Most of what's insuring the Constitution is the person you can reach out and touch, and that's your progress person.

And I think a lot of them have failed to do that job for a long time and it's been on several washes and we're demanding more from our Congress. Yeah, we definitely are and I think that that's going to be that's going to kind of show in the 2018 elections. I'm interested to see what happens as well. So anyway, thank you very much for joining us this week on Mueller She Wrote. I've been Julie Sojansson. I've been Jordan Coburn. And I'm a A-Rone. And I'm A-G, please join us next week. We're going to be talking about Hope Hicks, Testimony, and see what comes out with it. There's enough information that does come out of that. So please join us next week. Thank you very much. They might be giants that have been on the road for too long. Too long. And they might be giants next week. Thank you very much. who can stop they might be giants and their liberal rocket gender? Who? No one.

Disadvantaged pay for was somebody else's money. M-S-W-Media