Jack - Very Legal & Very Cool (feat. Renato Mariotti & Jennifer Taub)

Episode Date: December 3, 2018

Ep #57 - Joining us this week is Renato Mariotti (CNN Contributor) and law professor Jennifer Taub! Plus, Jaleesa covers Trump's WaPo interview, Jordan breaks down this week’s Nunes news, and AG reports on Manafort blowing up his plea deal. Enjoy!  

Hi, I'm Harry Lickman, host of Talking Feds. Around table, the brings together prominent figures from government law and journalism for a dynamic discussion of the most important topics of the day. Each Monday, I'm joined by a slate of Feds favorites and new voices to break down the headlines and give the insider's view of what's going on in Washington and beyond. Plus, Sidebar is explaining important legal concepts read by your favorite celebrities. Find Talking Fedswear every you get your podcasts. You'll be clear, Mr. Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs. That's what he said.

That's what I said. That's obviously what our position is. I'm not aware of any of those activities. I have been called a surrogate at a time or two in that campaign, and I didn't have not have communications with the Russians. What do I have to get involved with Putin for having nothing to do with Putin? I've never spoken to him. I don't know anything about a mother than he will respect me.

Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. So, it is political. You're a Communist! No, Mr. Green. Communism is just a red herring. Like all members of the oldest profession I'm a capitalist. Hello and welcome to Muller She Wrote. I'm your host A.G. and with me as always is Julie Sejanson. Hello. And Jordan Coburn. Hello. Welcome to the beginning of the end for Donald Trump

and his nasty Crotch Fruit children. We have a massive episode today. Do you know of an at-cotch fruit? Yeah. Including an interview with Jennifer Tabb. She was the professor that Jacob Wool and Surefire Intelligence tried to reach out to and get her to lie about Mueller sexually harassing her.

She's joining us today. And we also have law professor and CNN contributor, Renato Marriotti. Jalisa, you're going to be talking about Trump's wonderful Washington Post interview. He's so articulate. And Jordan, you have some new-nez news. New-nez news. And I'm going to cover the Manafort blowing up as plea deal this week. But first we have a correction from last week. I had mistakenly thought it was during the Mayflower meeting that Bhutina asked Trump her question about sanctions, that everyone thought sounded really rehearsed, you know?

I think Esokoff and Korn went over that and Russian roulette. Bannon was like, what the fuck, did they practice this? Bannon says fuck a lot. What was it? What? What was it? Well, where was she actually, if not the Mayflower? Oh, it wasn't the Mayflower. It was Freedom Fest.

Oh, yeah. Remember the prayer breakfast thing in Vegas? It's Freedom Fest. Peep-peew. And R.A. stuff. Yeah, so first, I want to welcome all of our new listeners. We got a ton this week. So welcome to Mola Shiro.

Freedom Fest, I'm going to do a lot of explaining of inside jokes in this episode because I feel like you might listen to it and you'd be like, this is great for the news, but what are the fungur beans and why are we talking about freedom fest? Freedom Fest was this prayer breakfast thing that's put on annually every year, but we have insisted that you have to call it freedom fast and it's in all capitals. Yes. So that's how that works. I think we also, you might hear us talk about essential consultants or essential consulting. That's the slush fund that Cohen set up and you have to say it like this and we wrote a tagline for it too. Essential consulting is fucking essential. Yeah. So you might hear us say that too.

Anything else pops up. I'll try it. I'll try my best to stop and explain it. And I think Pew-Pew. Is that a part of free and faster? Did I mix it up? Is that how it is? Yeah, that is.

Yeah, I'm on a few people there. Pew-Pew. Gun nuts. Yeah, yeah. Are gun enthusiasts? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it sounds like lasers, but is there an NRI for lasers? Ooh, like a Darth Vader type of star one.

Yeah, yeah. I think that'd be cool. Anyway, we have a lot of news to get to this week, so let's jump in with just the facts. Alright guys, beginning way back on Sunday. Um, sidebar blog picked a hell of a week to report that a judge, in the Mueller case, in a Mueller case, upheld the legal theory that makes collusion a crime. According to Randall Eliasin, it's true that there's no criminal statute titled collusion,

but the relevant crime is conspiracy under code US code title 18 section 371, which prohibits conspiracies to commit an offense against the United States in any manner for any purpose. And in the Concord Management case, that's one of the Russian entities indicted by Mueller when he indicted all the Russians. Concord asserted that Mueller can't charge under Section 371 unless the prosecution can prove willful intent or willfulness. But the judge said, no, sorry, bro, the judge determined that you don't have to do that. Meaning in order to be found guilty, the defendant

does not have to have known about the precise legal provisions they were violating. So while there's no statute called collusion, it's still a crime. And that precedent is very important to the Mueller investigation, especially considering all the news that came out this week. And we also know that Rosenstein and his redacted memo that outlined the scope of the Mueller investigation called them crimes of collusion. So I know that that's a big talking point for Trump when you collusion and he's been using that word and I think he's been using it because there's no statute called collusion. So that he can, you know, just come out and say collusion's not illegal Well, it is it's just different words boom Little Benjamin with a tiny cannon boom

Monday popodopolis reported to jail want want We had said last week that we were 100% certain that the judge would rule against popodopoulos' motion to continue his bail, meaning he wanted to stay out of jail until the Andrew Miller-Sappena battle was decided. The judge, in fact, denied his motion and he's in jail. And those Papadopoulos means I alluded to. Last week, let's hear that clip. Also, Wednesday, Mueller filed a motion to deny Papadopoulos' motion to wait until the Miller case has decided before he reports to jail, asserting that if the court finds Mueller's appointment to be unconstitutional, Papadop thinks he shouldn't have to go to jail.

The filing by Mueller used Papadopoulos' own tweets against him, saying the reason he wants to continue, and says because he feels the entire investigation has been very unfair to him. Mueller also points out that regardless of the outcome of the Miller case, Pop outopolis signed a waiver that he can't appeal, and he lied to the FBI, and he's agreed to go to jail for it. So he's not even going to jail for collusion. He's going to jail because he lied to the FBI, and he agreed to go to jail. So Mueller's appointment has no bearing on his jail sentence at all. I'm 100% sure the judge will deny Papa Doppler's

motion. He'll have to report to jail tomorrow Monday to serve his 14 days. Also keep your eyes peeled for a mega story coming out about Papa Doppler this week. There's going to be huge Papa Doppler beans and I can't tell you anything about it, but I have a source to put some beans on it. Well beans come true. No matter how your heart is grieving, if you keep on believing, The beans that you wish will come true. Natasha Bertrand and Scott Stedman, both frequent guests on MSW, reported in the Atlantic that Adam Schiff had received a letter saying Papa Dopolis had bragged a Russian business

deal even after the election. The FBI and the House Intelligence Committee are now investigating this letter, sent from an anonymous source, and alleging a series of unsubstantiated claims, including the pop-adopolis said he was going to do a business deal in Russia back in 2016, that would make a great deal of money for Trump and himself. Which is interesting because now we have some news coming out a little bit later in the show about that Trump Tower deal with Sator, and Cohen was in on it. himself, which is interesting because now we have some news coming out a little bit later in the show about that Trump Tower deal with Sater and Cohen was in on it. We'll send out a picture of that redacted letter in our newsletter this week that goes out to patrons. If you're not a patron

you want to be, you can become one at patreon.com slash mullis she wrote. And if you're wondering why I keep talking about beans. If you're new, episode 24 explains this really well. If you want to go listen to episode 24, I was looking for a catchphrase like how Maddo says, watch this space, or someone might say, put a pin in it. And I couldn't think of a good one. So I remembered a bit that a comedian friend of mine used to do, his name is Dallas McLaughlin. And where he won, it was right around the time Larry the Cable Guy came out and the whole blue collar comedy tour was going on. And Dallas was like, I bet all I need to do to get famous is come up with a great catchphrase.

So he started testing out catchphrases. Ironically, these aren't real. Right, they're meant to sound stupid. Yeah, they're meant to sound stupid. And one of them was put some beans on it. And so I asked him if I could have that and he's like, uh, yeah. So that's where that comes from. And thank you guys for just like going with it because it's taking a whole world of its own now.

Yeah, y'all ran with beans. Yeah, we need a little bean to sponsor us. We need bushes to sponsor us. Goia, roll that bean footage. That's bushes, right? And sometimes we'll say space beans or super secret space beans, and that's because I've combined, watch this space with put some beans on it, and it came out, watch these space beans.

So that's kind of where that all thing comes from. Welcome to Moller Sheeration. Yeah, try the beans. I think you'll find they're actually very fitting. It really rolls off the tongue. It does. Oh, beans, put some beans on it. Don't fight it, because a couple of people reach out and they'll be like, stop with the beans,

but only a few. Most people love it. Yeah. It's like putting beans on black, you know. It just rolls off. Yeah. And so now, you know, in this show, I've got from the very beginning, if you listen to the early episode, sorry about sound quality. We talk about how I lay out facts and news reports, and then I say, and then this is conjecture. And I always want to make sure to separate my theories from what's actually being reported in the news. And so now sometimes puts some beans on it, has just been shortened to beans, you know.

Exactly, yeah. So like if I come up with a theory and I say, I bet you, like I did a week ago last year, I bet Flynn's gonna get indicted. Beans. And then bam, December 1st, he wasn't there. I love it. That's just kind of guessing. And regular news organizations and outlets and journalists aren't supposed to do that.

That's why I wanted to do a podcast so I can fucking do it all day. Do whatever we want. Yeah. Not whatever we want, but nothing crazy. Beans aren't crazy. We aren't gonna collude with Russia to fix an election. Anyway, so that's beans. Also, Monday, if you can remember that far back,

I can't. That's why I take notes. We found out Jerome Corsi decided he was going to reject a plea deal offered to him by Special Counsel Bob Mueller. He alleges that prosecutors asked him to commit a felony when they told him he didn't have to report the plea agreement to the financial industry regulatory authority or finra because the agreement would be under seal. He said he'd rather not, he'd rather rot in jail than sign the deal because he says he didn't lie. But probably he's more worried about losing his security's license, I guess. He said it was shocking to me because the special council was advising me to commit a felony.

I felt like an American soldier in the Korean War being interrogated by the communist Chinese. It's okay. Alright. That's a bit of a stretch, Mr. Corsi. He's fucking insane. He's absolutely insane. That sounds a... Maybe you shouldn't call the people investigating you communist just as a cert

That's probably a good place to be in yeah Oh, and then Corsi released a draft of his charging document given to him by Mueller He he drafted it up and he said here's what we're gonna charge you with and here's what you'll get And I have a theory as to why he did this which I'll get to in a second But the charging document said that Corsi told several lies to the grand jury But was offered a deal where he'd several lies to the grand jury, but was offered a deal where he'd plead guilty to one count of lying, and in exchange for that cooperation, he would get no jail time.

He'd be just given probation. He wouldn't take it. The charging document was interesting. It said, of course, he lied when he told the grand jury that Stone never asked him to reach out to WikiLeaks when he had. He also lied when he said he didn't reach out to a third party in reach out to WikiLeaks when he had. He also lied when he said he didn't reach out to a third party in London to ask WikiLeaks what they had. That third party was Ted Malik and Corsi did ask Malik to find out what a

Sange had. That was after we knew that the GRU had hacked the DNC and the D-Triple C. Then he lied, Corsi lied when he said he did not get back to Stone, telling a wiki leagues had documents incriminating Hillary Rotem Clinton and that they were going to release them in October of 2016 He said he didn't do that turns out he did tell stone and Muller had all the emails to prove it. So he's got documentary evidence We also learned that Trump was mentioned by name in the draft document saying stone and Trump were in communication And Washington Post would report later in the week that Stone and Trump would talk frequently by phone late late night into the wee hours. So Mueller has this documentary evidence and that Stone and Trump talked a lot back then

and that Stone asked Corsi to reach out to WikiLeaks to find out what they had, which he did through Ted Malik and then reported back to Stone that they have dirt on HRC and they're going to release in in October. So why did Corsi release his draft plea agreement? Why do you make it public? My theory, and these are theories, and this is conjecture, is that he was communicating with Trump, letting Trump know what Mueller has and what he told the grand jury. In fact, I think, and these are super space beans, I think that Corsi, Stone, Miller, Man

Afford, and Trump were all communicating about what story they were going to tell Mueller in the grand jury. And that's why that joint defense agreement was never canceled. And I think that in return for lying, they'd all get pardons. It's the only explanation for Corsi releasing that document and refusing a deal where he would get no jail time. Or he's going to go full nunberg and he's just doing this as a phase. He's like a teenager acting out for a second. Yeah. And then I'll come back to him. I like I'm sorry mom Yeah, I think he's gonna go full nunberg and when we say that we do we this happened when

Sam nunberg went on did a All the talky shows right he goes around he was the highest fuck yeah Drunk and I think Aaron Burnett was, you smell like alcohol right now, sir. Are you drunk? He's like, no. Uh, uh. And I'm sure he was on Coke. But anyway, I have a little comedian

and I can tell when people are on Coke can, but he picked up on that. So then this wonderful, beautiful lawyer who was also want to show with him was like, dude, you don't want to do this because you'll end up in prison and you'll sit there until you tell the truth. And you could be there forever. And like, you could get charged with everything you've done wrong. And also on top of it, obstruction of justice and conspiracy to defraud the United States by making this

deal and lying. And that's when Nudberg was like, oh, and he went to the grand jury. Remember his face when he said that? He was like, really? Like, you're lawyer didn't fucking tell you that, dude? And then your lawyer will let you go on national television. A reverence publicist says really needs to be fired as well. Oh yeah.

So I'm with you Jordan. I think he's gonna go Nudberg and he'll be like, okay, because he's the only probation. Muller doesn't fuck around,gen. He'll be like, okay, because he's only probation. Muller doesn't fuck around man. He'll be like, I will wreck your life or you can go home. Yeah, you know. Yeah, all of Stone's minions like Andrew Miller, they have this false sense of confidence right now, but I think since that happened on Monday, everything that happened following Monday, which you know, we'll go, is probably putting a seed in their brain that that was a horrible decision. Yeah, yeah, and he still has time.

And I have a feeling Mueller will give him that time. Remember when Mueller pushed the Manifort sentencing back 10 days, and we found out this week, we found out why, because he was about to blow up, it's pleading deal, but I feel like Mueller gives you time. Like you sure him, he'll ask him like 100 times, dude, you should, bro, are you sure? This is. Like you sure him, he'll ask him like 100 times, dude. You should, bro. Are you sure?

This is the route you wanna take, because I know why you're doing it, and I have all the evidence, and you're gonna go to jail forever. And we'll talk a little bit about why I think Maniford doesn't care if he's in jail forever. We'll talk about that later. Why Maniford don't give a shit?

You don't get a fuck. He's Honey Badger, him and Ellis. Crazy judge Ellis. Another inside joke, sort of, right? Oh yeah, we had Randall from Randall's animals. Do you guys remember honey badger crazy honey badger doesn't give a shit Oh, look at him eat the snake gross Well, we had him come on and narrate the trial for manic man of fort and it went beautifully So he referred to judge Ellis's crazy ass judge Ellis. He's like the honey badger. He don't give a shit So you might want to check out that I I think that was the Maniford epic sode.

Yeah, yeah, with Randall's animal. So you should check that episode out. It was pretty pretty funny. Still Monday, we learned that representative Goodlott, the embattled chair of the House Judiciary Committee, said that it's really tough for government officials like Ivanka Trump to comply with agency standards for secure communications when sending emails. He went on to explain like Ivanka Trump to comply with agency standards for secure communications when sending emails. He went on to explain how Ivanka was doing what she could to comply, but there's a lot of different things that you have to make sure you're doing and whether it's according to the rules of the White House or wherever you're doing it is what he said.

And this is from the chair of the committee that just subpoenaed Komi and Lynch to question them about the handling of the Clinton email investigation. Fuck out of here, good lot. Yeah, I know I don't need to say this that I don't buy that reasoning, but considering that's the one thing that your dad was saying lock her up about, maybe you shouldn't, maybe that's the one thing

you should have eyes on that you shouldn't also do. But she didn't delete them. No, she didn't delete them. she didn't delete them it's not illegal okay whatever she won't go to jail neither should Hillary everyone shut up not you guys but you know everyone else know about the damn emails I'm tired of hearing about the damn emails oh my god that was so funny everyone was like yeah everybody yeah, everybody clapped. He's like, can we fucking talk about something? I swear to God, he was about to say fuck. That old angry man is so adorable.

All right. Then Tuesday, in an interview, Komi actually said about Whitaker, he might not be the sharpest knife in our drawer, but basically, if he blocks it and obstructs justice, he'll go down on the wrong side of history. I'm paraphrasing the end of that. But that was a little interview, Komi.

He's just basically referred to Whitaker as a dumbass. Yeah. But not so much of a dumbass that he would obstruct justice and collude, you know, and conspire with the president. Seems like he's right so far. To tamper with witnesses. Also Tuesday, Red Devil, Maria Bettina, was moved to solitary confinement. November 21st, because she was giving away her lawyer's phone number to another inmate, assuming so he could communicate on her behalf where it wouldn't be listened to, like if

he came and talked to her himself. So her lawyers argued that the solitary confinement is starting to have a profound psychological impact on her, and unless the court intervenes, she will require the attention of a mental health professional. Well boo, fucking hoot. So we are now hearing that she's close to a plea agreement, so keep that in mind as we head to the fantasy indictment league this week. And I do want to say, you know, while I threw in that clip, boo, fucking hoot about her being in solitary confinement, I do want to say that I don't necessarily agree with solitary confinement for everyone, but if you're first of all in danger,

or you're trying to break the law wall inside prison, or just for your own safety, like I said, that it's necessary. And also, there's some people who are in jail that are not supposed to be in jail that are being put in solitary confinement. She's fucking supposed to be in jail, so. Be the fucking hell.

Good point. Still Tuesday, the Guardian reported that the White House was blocking Gina Haspel, the CIA director, from joining the group that briefed the Senate on the murder of Kashogji. Assumingly, because she does believe there's evidence that Muhammad Bonsa is connected directly to the murder. But instead, Pompeo, who we need a nickname for that guy, Ellen Pompeo, perhaps Grazonette. No, there's no. Just Pompeo. Just, hey, that guy. That's a tricky one. When he, him and Madness briefed the Senate, saying there was no direct evidence, no direct evidence that MBS was involved in the murder directly. So Haspel traveled to Turkey following Keshoggi's death

and heard it on audio recording. She heard the murder tape. And so how is this connected to the Mueller investigation? Well, we could play six degrees of Mueller, let's see. The death of Keshoggi by Muhammad Bonsa who Trump is covering for because of the potential $80 billion nuclear reactor deal brokered by Flynn who pleaded guilty

in the Mueller investigation. There you go, I've connected him. That was quick. Those were super space beans. You should've listened to our last episode if you're like, what nuclear reactors? Oh, yeah, the Mayflower, the Marshall Plan, and the fact that Trump is trying to help Saudi Arabia

develop a nuclear bomb. That's last week's episode. You may have heard that, because I feel like all our new listeners listen to that one first. But if you haven't, go check it out. Also Tuesday, the civil trial against Jeffrey Epstein, what a wonderful guy. That began in Palm Beach, Florida. We talked about Epstein with Scott Dworkin in one of our episodes

back in July. Epstein was investigated by the FBI for pedophilia, prostitution, and trafficking, human trafficking. The Miami Herald said it found almost 80 women, he allegedly raped or molested or sexually abused over a five-year period. Epstein is friends with Bill Clinton, Prince Andrew, and of course Donald Trump and Alan Dershowitz. And Donald Trump, he may or may not have coincidentally owned a modeling agency around the time

Epstein was throwing his famous parties where he would bring underage models into entertain his guests. But there's a kicker in a report this week from the Harold. It turns out the U.S. Attorney in Florida gave Epstein the deal of a lifetime where he had to, let's see, he pleaded to two counts of prostitution, two counts, and served 13 months in jail. It was a nice jail too. And he had to register as a sex offender, and he

had to pay restitution. And the US Attorney gave him that sweetheart deal, and now that US Attorney is Trump's secretary of labor. Oh. The sweetheart deal shut down the Epstein investigation and further granted immunity to any potential co-conspirators in the case, even though the FBI had identified 36 victims. So I hope they throw the book at him in this civil trial, and I'm very interested if Trump or Clintons or Dershowitz's name come up.

That wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. So that'll be, we'll follow that. We'll keep you posted. Finally on Tuesday, Mississippi elected a known racist, made of bridge trolls and cigarettes to the United States Senate. I guess they're mad. They're the 49th were state and they're gunned in for 50. So why do you go so funny? Yeah, it's like she's a box of cigarettes that came to life. Yeah, yeah, brought to life by bridge trolls. So then we can move to Wednesday when Chinlas Mitch blocked a bipartisan

Mueller protection bill again, saying again, how he doesn't see how Mueller isn't in any trouble. And they're busy doing important things. So I can't wait until he leaves the Senate, even if it's feet first. I don't care. Don't at me. Also, from the Daily Beast, on Wednesday, we learned that Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi pushed the Seth Rich lie after privately admitting hackers, or actually the people who stole

the DNC emails. Way back last year, Corsi told his Info Wars fans that a DNC staffer named Seth Rich stole some of those DNC staffer named Seth Rich stole his one of his, stole some of those DNC emails and then was murdered by Hillary Clinton with her bare hands in the basement of a pizza parlor in Benghazi. I don't know. It was stupid. Um, no, but he did say Seth Rich stole the emails because he was a disgruntled Bernie

supporter and that HRC put a hit out on him. That was a real conspiracy theory they started and people fucking believed it. And now there's several emails from Corsi to Stone in 2016 where Corsi said that of course it was the hackers who stole the emails. So Rich's parents had begged Corsi and his allies to stop claiming their son's unsolved murder was an assassination, but Corsi ignored them and continued with his crackpot theory. And now there's proof that the entire thing is baseless. So Rich's parents have filed several lawsuits also. Good.

Good. That's awful for them to do that to someone grieving. It's just so disgusting. Yeah. And that there's people out there like, just Seth Rich murder, look into that. Why, you know, you're like, oh, the Mueller tweet something about the Mueller case. And I'm like, what about Seth Rich? Yeah, I remember.

How is that? Okay. So people subscribe to listen to that, right? There's like a monetary element in faux-worse to some degree. Obviously, I feel like that should be a case for fraud. I don't understand because these people come out and they say they don't believe the stuff that they pedal. They probably cite that lawsuit that says that you can be completely fictional on new shows. Like an entertainment source. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, also Wednesday. Trump put out new Hatch Act guidelines.

Even though six of his own staffers had complaints filed against them by the group called Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington or Crew, and the Office of the Special Council, that's unrelated to Mueller's Office of the Special Council, agreed. So while he and his employees violate the Hatch Act all day long in favor of Trump, Trump has now put out guidance that federal government employees are not allowed to talk about impeachment of Trump or the resistance during work hours. Now the Hatch Act has always said that government employees, we as government employees, can't advocate for or oppose people running for political office while working.

So there was no reason, zero reason to specify that it can't be bad about Trump. And you may or may not know, but if you're a new listener, I'm a federal civil servant paid on the general schedule and I work for Trump's executive branch. About a year ago, Trump's office of special counsel, not the other one, but the other one, foyered my employee records. Foyer is a freedom of information act request, and the government would not tell me why. And this year, knowing I'm unable to relocate, they could be moving my job out from under me.

Technically, I record the podcast after working hours, so I should be able to say whatever I want, but I do use a pseudonym, and I don't talk about which brands I work for, or any specifics about it, and I don't talk about it much anymore, so I just don't want to toe the line. But if he tries to purge me for Hatch Act violations, there's a clear pattern that he only applies them to people who speak ill of him. And he does not hold accountable those that violate the Hatch Act by speaking ill of his political opponents. And rules unfairly applied are rarely upheld in court, so watch these space beans, because I'm not going down without a fight. Finally Wednesday, Trump threatened Democrats by saying he would release classified documents about them in one of his most flagrant abuses of power to date.

Quote, if they want to play tough, I would do it. He told the New York Post in an interview this week, how is it that he hates to fake news media, but he tells them shit like this. He's just crazy. He's clearly scared. He's really just obviously scared. He should be. Also this week, that super secret subpoena battle

that's been going on in the DC District Court, it's not the Andrew Miller subpoena battle. That's a stone associate who's resisting his subpoena and then asked the court to hold him in contempt so he could argue the constitutionality of Mueller's appointment. Old news. So it's not that one. But this is the one under seal that's running parallel

with it, along the same timeline. So we're supposed to, we were supposed to hear oral arguments in that case December 14th, but according to a new court filing, those hearings will take place in closed session. So it looks like we're not going to find out who's fighting that Mueller subpoena just yet. But based on some tweets, credit code put out this week, I no longer think it's him. He put out some really skating tweets against Trump this week. I wish it were Trump, because I really feel like Mueller at some point

has to subpoena him to answer for obstruction of justice. You have to do that interview. That can't be a written test questions, you know? But I feel like that would have leaked. I mean, unless that's the one thing Trump wouldn't want leaked. I don't know, what do you guys think? Yeah, I think it's interesting to think about it when you think of controlled leaks.

And if they're leaking the things they only want to and then not leaking the things that they don't want to. And maybe the fact that they're choosing to not leak something or the people that have been leaking things or choosing to not leak something is indicative of how big of a person it is. And I think that's kind of the, the remember that article we reported on a few episodes ago about the argument that maybe it was Trump, that Trump was this person?

Right. Which, yeah. So that, I think that was part of the theory in there. I'd have to remind myself and go read again. And then we had an article from Marcy Wheeler that said, I don't think it's Trump because it wasn't actually that being that expeditiously pushed through the courts It was on the same timeline as the Miller Thing went back and forth really fast too and so you know, but the Miller one was heard a couple weeks ago

And this one is December 14th. So it's actually taking longer than the Miller one So I don't see that the the expeditiousness of it or alacrity I think is the word they used is an issue that would make it trump more than it would make it some house painter from Cleveland which is what Andrew Miller is. Right. I have a question. When we talk about leaks these people that are leaking various things. We never hear the follow-through on who's getting prosecuted for the leaking. Why do you think that is? Do you think they just keep it on to wraps intentionally

or is just such low level news compared to what's going on that we don't hear about it? Yeah, my best guess is that they don't, they haven't found out who did it. You know, so that's the best guess that I have. Well, I'm still holding out for being a Trump. I think that might be a little bit super space beans and too much wishful thinking,

but if it's not him, I do think that it's someone else that's very big and consequential. I wish it was Trump. I'll say that because I'd love to see how that pans out. Um-hmm, legally. Yes. And legally. Um, hmm.

I don't know. We'll see. Watch those beans. We'll be right back. Hey, Mueller junkies. This is AG with me as Jelisa Johnson. Hey. And we got Jordan Coburn. Hey. And weies. This is A.G. with me is Jolissa Johnson.

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Over with a note that says, one of still meet, check this box. And then they were going to meet, but then we found out Trump didn't really cancel the meeting because of the attacks on the Ukraine and then Trump just sort of walked around all awkward and alone, like a pre-pubescent kid whose girlfriend ditched him at the dance. It's so sad and embarrassing. He got all pouty and then canceled his press conference and said it was because Papa Bush died. Unlike other news shows, I'm not going to do a tribute on him, but he passed away. Anyhow, if Trumpy gets a moment to slow dance with Pudi, I'll keep you posted.

I didn't shoplift the Pudi. This past Thursday, Mueller got Cohen to plead guilty again. Except this time, Mueller didn't hand it off to the Southern District of New York, because this stuff falls within the purview of the scope of his investigation as outlined by the Rod Rosenstein memo I had mentioned earlier, right? Crimes of collusion. Back in March we reported the minority report released from the House Intelligence Committee dropped a bomb that there was a second Trump tower being planned to build in Moscow and during the 2016 campaign.

All, you know, and it was very prescient because they said it was still going on well into the campaign. But Cohen said, nope, we stopped talking about it in January. And Trump was like, I have no deals, no deals with Russia, none. I never talked to them. I hate them. We didn't, you know, but whatever. We've all known since as early as March that Trump was working on a second Trump tower. We've all known this. If you've been listening to this, listening to this podcast, that was not the Newsy part of the Coen Guilty Play that came out this week. But let's take a listen to that clip.

The big news in that is that there is a second Trump Tower during the Trump campaign, facilitated by Cohen and Sator, financed by VTB bank a sanctioned Russian bank So we're gonna go into that where was it gonna pop up The tower yeah, okay, got it. So you remember how in 2014 when they won the Ivanka failed Well, wait in 20 in 2014 They were both with Ivanka But in 2014 he was doing the miss pad, you know the miss universe page in the goldstone and a galor off that he was going to do the tower with a galor off and that fell through because of the sanctions that obama put in in

twenty fourteen right well year and a half later he satyr and coen got together and started planning it again uh... with a shell company and a Russian bank sanctioned and while money while trump is running for president saying America first. So no surprise to us that Cohen was working on a Trump tower deal with Sator and Ivanka while the 2016 election was still going on. What's news here at least to me is that Cohen is pleading guilty for lying to Congress about when the Trump tower deal stopped and we all kind of figured that no one was ever going to get in trouble for lying to Congress about when the Trump Tower deal stopped. And we all kind of figured that no one was ever going to get in trouble for lying to Congress. I mean, think about how many people have lied to Congress so far.

We got sessions and junior and Kushner and Kavanaugh, like so many people have lied to Congress and we just figured that that rule had no teeth and they were just kind of let it fly. Yeah, yeah. When sessions perjured himself and nothing happened, I was like, oh, you mean the highest lawyer of the land can get away with it? Okay, cool. Yeah, it's very surprising to me that there's no precedent set for forwarding on those cases,

but as I will talk on my hot note, I think that's about to change this year. Yes, I'm excited for that hot note too. Anyway, Cohen's pleading guilty to this one count, which means he's got a lot more he can offer Mueller. And they said that he went seven times, it's like 70 hours of testimony. And he didn't sign a traditional plea deal.

It's more like a non-binding, well not non-binding, but I'm telling you everything. I'll plead to what you want me to plead to. We don't have to sign a traditional plea agreement. And usually people do that because it makes them look like a hero more of a hero than a guilty person. So I could have been an optics thing or I'm sure

Mueller would have had to sign off on why? He wouldn't if he wanted to give a real solid plea agreement in there. He would have made it happen, but he didn't. So it's interesting. Yeah, Cohen definitely is taking that road though, I think, of trying to be heroic and all of this for sure. He says some stuff that no one's asking him to say. Yeah, no, you're right. Talks about, you know, how down Trump is going and stuff. It's like, that's a pretty quick 180. Yeah, and he's got a lot on him.

And this time, it's not about money or porn stars or tax evasion. It's about Russia. Exactly. You know, it's funny. He said he would take a bullet for Trump and now he's the one that's like shooting lot on him and this time it's not about money or porn stars or tax evasion. It's about Russia. Exactly. You know it's when he said he would take a bullet for Trump and now he's the one that's like shooting off on the... Now he's peep, peep, peep, freedom facts. Exactly. Yeah.

Well, it's amazing to me. Call me naive, but I thought lawyers were supposed to help you not commit crimes. But all of his lawyers, he hires to help him. They're fixers. Yeah. Fixers. Yeah, they're not only other fixers, they're setting shit up and doing it for them. We're making it possible. They're fixing it.

Yeah. Well, there's a very broad term I've learned this year. Yeah. And so I'm not sure where I put Cohen yet. I don't know where I put him yet on the spectrum from a whole to hero. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like Avanatti sort of, not as much, but yeah. Yeah.

So they're both definitely douchebags. Yeah, yeah. But one's probably more heroic than the other for sure. Joining us today to give us his perspective on Cohen's sentencing submission is former federal prosecutor, host of the on topic podcast and regular contributor to CNN and MSW. Please welcome back, Renato Mariotti. Renato, welcome back.

Hey, thanks for having me on podcast. Absolutely. We love having you on here. Your perspectives are so insightful. And I read your analysis of that sentencing document on Twitter and I was hoping you could share your thoughts on what this document tells us. Sure. I think, you know, the most important thing that we can glean from it is some of the details that Cohen and his attorneys provided regarding the involvement of Trump's attorneys and White House staff in the crafting of his statements to Congress, which ultimately ended up being false. And, of his statements to Congress, which ultimately ended up being false, and we're the subject of his recent guilty play.

What they said in the submission was that Cohen had been in regular consultation with Trump's attorneys and White House staff as he was crafting that statement uh... you know what the clear implication is i think is that uh... they knew that his testimony was false uh... and they at the very least didn't correct the record uh... and you know potentially uh... approved or uh... or condoned him lying to congress in some way

he yeah i i that was what was the most shocking to me, at least there were a lot of shocking details in here, but that one is one that stood out. Because also late Thursday, we got word that Cohen had kept Trump apprised of his communications about the Trump Tower Moscow deal, including lengthy and substantive conversations with the personal assistant to a top criminal official as late as June 2016.

So I was wondering if you think those communications fit into that timeline of the Trump Tower meeting with Vesselnet Sky, if you think they're connected at all, because I feel like people are hinting that they are. Well, you know, to me, it's hard to tell. I will say, you know, it's part of sort of an overall picture that many people have had in mind ever since they read that dossier, you know, many, many months ago, in which, you know, I think that dossier talked about Trump getting benefits in the form of dirt on his opponents from Russians, and that he was also trying to pursue

business deals. Frankly, those two episodes appear consistent with that. I think from a legal perspective, there's more problems with the Trump Tower meeting than there are with the fact that Trump Tower was, you know, the Trump Tower Moscow Project was continuing into 2016, but obviously that latter issue is obviously has implications for our democracy and our country. Yeah, agreed. And then I've got a legal question for you because we got something news also saying that Trump had signaled he would pardon Cohen if he stayed on message about the playmate payoffs. Wouldn't that fall without fall under witness tampering or obstruction of justice? Do you know or

I mean do we still just not have enough facts about it to know? The strong, the short answer is that a case like that has never come up before, or someone was dangling a pardon to someone in exchange for them offering false testimony, it would appear to be consistent, excuse me, it would appear to be consistent with something like witness tampering, where, for example, if you're offering someone some other benefit, right? Money or a house or a car or something like that, it's exchange for them to give false testimony or undermine an investigation in some way that would clearly be a crime. the pardon power is very, very broad under the Constitution. But here, you know, here, of course, it's not the exercise of the pardon power that would be the issue. It would be offering it in exchange for potential wrongdoing. Yeah, well, it seems like, I mean, just even just asking someone to change their testimony, like Manafort did, when he was out on bail, that seems to me to be witness tampering. So adding

something in it in exchange for that kind of seems like bribery to me. But yeah, the pardon power is so broad. I'm just I'm really interested to see how that pans out if there's a charge, if it's brought, you know, depending on how this whole thing shakes out, it may even never go to court. But I'm really interested to see how that would work out. Yeah, I will say that, you know, the main issue for a lot of this is how do you prove it? Okay, and that's really, you know, a lot of the recent news that we've heard, for example, the shenanigans between Manafort attorneys and Trump's attorneys, we've heard, for example, the shenanigans between Manafort attorneys and Trump's attorneys, the issue that was hinted at in this document

that we're talking about now, regarding what did White House staff or Trump lawyers tell Cohen and what didn't they tell Cohen, all that can be very challenging to prove. And I think the issues here with Pardons are similar. And a lot of these conversations probably aren't written down. There may have been a lot of winking and nodding that was done. And unless you have somebody who's part of those conversations, who's willing to testify,

you know, about their, you know, and really take responsibility and say, this is, yeah, of course, it was understood that someone was going to lie. Yes, of course, it was understood that someone was going to lie. Yes, of course, it was understood that this vague talk of pardon really was meant to be in exchange for something. It can be hard to prove. And I think, you know, that, that is really, you know, the issue that you run into with a lot of this stuff because it is unprecedented. And from reading the Cohen document, the picture I think we received from that is that Cohen was reading the stuff in the newspapers about potential pardons, about the lies that the

president was telling. And he knew that he was supposed to stay on message. He knew he was supposed to lie. He knew he was supposed to be doing what the president wanted if he wanted a pardon. But he does not allege specific quid pro quo type conversations. Yeah, I agree. It is definitely very hard to prove. And regardless of whether they talked about or dangled pardons for, you know, covering up or staying on message about playing off the playmates, the crimes underneath the paying off of the playmates is still there. Uh, whether you decided, Whether you decided to talk about it or not. So it'll

be interesting to see how that goes. Ronaldo, it's been really great having you on everybody. Check out your, what can, where can we find your podcast? Sure. It's on Apple Podcasts. Stitch your Google Play, all the major podcast apps on topic with Ronaldo to Mariani. Awesome. It's been great talking to you again. Everybody, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Anytime. So since Cohen pleaded for line to Congress, it only makes sense to me that Mueller is now looking into Ivanka and Junior for their roles in the Trump Tower deal.

And I was wondering, why is Mueller looking so hard into this Trump Tower Moscow deal? It's not illegal to build a Moscow Trump Tower. It's not illegal to lie to the American people about it. And it's not really within his purview of Russia interference, right? But it makes sense though, that he could use the fact that Ivanka and junior lied to Congress about it to get them to flip as well.

In the fallout of the Cohen plea deal, everyone was wondering if Whitaker had approved that move, but according to Michael Schmidt of the New York Times, it seems Rosenstein is still overseeing the Mueller investigation. And yeah, everyone is here like, yeah, but doing fist pumps, like you. Yeah, you can't see that.

But according to the Washington Post, Whitaker was notified of the Coenpleet deal, but he was not asked permission. He was just told, we're doing this. A couple weeks ago, I had said that I'd be willing to bet in these were beans, that Mueller wasn't gonna fuck with Whitaker. He was just gonna go around him and keep acting as though Rosenstein were still overseeing

the probe, because Whitaker was installed unconstitutionally. So now Mueller is kind of daring Whitaker, and this is again, total conjecture I have heard no reports of this. But if it feels like Mueller's daring Whitaker to raise a stink about it, like, sue me bro, take me to court, file a complaint. I fucking dare you. Yeah, patch them on the head. That's cute. Yeah. So first day of school outfit, you just see, like, you know, when you're older,

sibling would hold your head and you'd be swinging and they, you couldn't reach because your arms weren't long enough. That's what's happening. That's a perfect description, right? And Whitaker knows who lose that battle. It, you know, this is all conjecture, but it certainly makes sense in light of this week's reporting on the Cohen deal that Whitaker was know, this is all conjecture, but it certainly makes sense in light of this week's reporting on the Coendial that Whitaker was notified. Not asked. And it didn't require his approval. If he has any answers, self-awareness to it, he'll know that putting himself on the map in front of a special prosecutor is probably not the best idea, because he's got his own sketchy past. Exactly. I think he's learning with all the evidence he has access to now that he's like, oh, crap, they were right, you know.

Like, he doesn't want to be the guy to follow Matt Hill. Yeah. And so think about all the people who've turned Trump down for a job. You want to know why? Yeah. That's why. Yeah. So I get on your masculine toilet.

The Buzzfeed news, they dropped a bomb of a story saying that Putin was promised the $50 million pet house in the Moscow Trump Tower. And Sator had said it was for marketing purposes, meaning it would be way easy to sell condos in Russia if Putin lived in the building. This alone makes Trump compromise, just this. And that's what Joyce Vance had said. When she reminded us that Trump lied to the American people, when he said that he had no business dealings going on with Russia, when he had actually signed a letter of intent and was actively working to build in Moscow.

And while lying to the American public, like I said, is not a crime, Putin knew he was lying to the American public, immediately giving him leverage over the president of the United States. And we had emphasized this last July when shift told us about this in the House Intelligence Committee's minority report on Russian interference. We had said that. He's totally compromised now. Yeah, and not only is he compromised just by the fact that Putin knows he's not telling the truth. There's everything that lies below the reason why he's not telling the truth. Exactly. Yeah, because what kind of

Squid Pro Crow was going on there? New listeners listeners squid pro crow is what we say instead of squid pro Cool, yeah, yeah, squid pro quo. Yeah, Jordan You just said it by accident one time or was it intentionally when you said that one? It was definitely by accident, but I will admit it's significantly easier for me to remember things with two animals in it Yes, and so and it's really hard now for me to say quid pro quo. Yeah. It's squid pro crow. And somebody drew us a little squid pro crow. Yeah. It was a squid holding a sign that said, um, black crow's matter. Yeah. Because he's pro crow. Anyway, it was fantastic. Numeric devices for lost students. Right. Yeah. From now on, squid pro crow. Um, anyway,

also Thursday guys Deutsche Bank was rated in a probe stemming from the Panama papers, Panama papers. So just a note, Justice Kennedy's son worked for them. And I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of connection between Kennedy's retirement and Kavanaugh's bargain grounded in Deutsche Bank, being the only financial institution willing to give Trump any money after his multiple bankruptcy is total conjecture, super beans. Anyway, that same day, the Alderman and Burke offices were closed and they put brown paper up over the windows and they shuttered the whole new thing.

Alderman and Burke worked on their tax attorneys worked on Trump's taxes for 12 years until a letter was issued by the firm last month announcing that they were breaking up with the Trumps. Now they've been shuttered. So I don't know what's going on. Yeah. But it's fun. That's mysterious.

Friday we learn that Amy Berman, Judge Jackson, if you're nasty, sent Manafort's sentencing date from March 5th. But Weiselberg from Mueller's office said they'd be ready to hand over the sentencing report December 7th. A day that will go down. I can't compare those two things. But I'll be speaking to the implications of that deadline later on in the show. So we'll be right back.

Hey, Mueller junkies. This is AG and myself and Julissa and Jordan just had the wonderful experience of going on to the Scent Bird website. That's ScentSCEMTBird.com. And we got to pick out a couple of fragrances. We subscribed and it was so easy and it's awesome. And here's why there's so many things. There's so many things that are awesome about this.

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for a really long time. We were joking around and we all had terrible boyfriends assigned to us. Yeah, I mean, you make one comment about how someone's objectively not awful looking and you're just fucked. Yeah, especially in this group, so but they broke up. So it's your ex-boyfriend now. And I think I was the only one that didn't get stuck with a crappy boyfriend. I had like McCabe and Komi and Molly.

Yeah, because you're the executive producer. Yeah, that's how it works. We get the table scraps. Yeah, I'll how it works. We get the table scraps. Take it. We made a bitch's boyfriend's. Triple B. Yeah. Not just the better business bureau. Oh, it is better business for you.

Oh, nice. So you're going to go over the newness stuff and his shenanigans. But first, Julie, see, you have some amazing details about an interview Trump gave to the Washington Post. What do you have? I do. And amazing is the word for Trump gave to the Washington Post. What do you have?

I do, and amazing is the word for it. So, I'm amazed. On Tuesday, Trump set down for an interview with WAPO, and for some reason it took two whole journalists to do this interview. I guess when one became too overwhelmed with nonsense, they would just tag team in the other brave men. So their names are Philip Rucker and Josh Dossie, and I think they actually did a really good job.

They seemed to ask all the right questions. It's not their fault they were talking to the world's or America's dumbest president. It was like they were talking to like a racist wall. Like he just, he wasn't giving them anything. I guess Trump also builds emotional walls. So the interview covered the war in Afghanistan, Paul Manafort, the Mexican border wall, climate change, the stock market, Saudi Arabia, Putin, and Matthew fucking Whitaker. So it covered all the hits. And at first Trump requested to speak off

the record for most of his responses, but then he started to warm up. So when they asked Trump what he was willing to quote, take from Mitch McConnell to end the immigration fight, Trump said, it's not a question to take or to take from McConnell. McConnell is a friend of mine. We get along great. And then he went on this unrelated rant about the Mississippi race that just happened, which ended with, I know one thing for sure. If she loses, I'll be blamed. If she wins, I'll be given no credit.

That's the only thing I know. But anyways, you guys want something to drink? So he was really weird in random. I'm guessing that was probably Pallonium tea he was offering. When Trump was asked about climate change, he said, one of the problems that a lot of people like myself, we have very high levels of intelligence, but we're not necessarily such believers, just like that word for word. He said, you look at our air in our water and it's right now at a record clean. But when you look at China, and you look at parts of Asia, and when you look at South America. But when you look at China and you look at parts of Asia

and when you look at South America and when you look at many other places in this world, including Russia, including just many other places, the area is incredibly dirty. I like how he fails to mention Flint. Yeah, of all the places, right? Just right here. So basically, he's a bumbling at it.

And on the topic of California fires, Trump doubled down on his raking theory, saying, you go to other places where they have denser trees, it's more dense where the trees are more flammable. They don't have forest fires like this because they maintain. You need forest management and they don't have it. He's like a stupid smokey the bear, right? I'll tell you where the dense happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you don't believe in science Trump. Don't try to talk about it. Exactly, but he tries so hard. And as far as the economy and the closing of the GM factory, he said, my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else's brain can ever tell me.

Which I think epitomizes Trump, right? That's the quote that should be on his tombstone. He always says that too. Like, my generals are stupid. I know more than my generals. I know more than all the- I said genitals. Like, yeah, wow, that's so truthful. Not so true. Yeah. It's just that sums it up. He said, my gut tells me more sometimes. Sometimes than anybody else's brain can-

OK, on the top- Telepathy is not a real thing. Yeah, exactly. On the topic of Saudi Arabia, Trump basically said, I'm going to keep taking Saudi Arabia's blood money because if I don't somebody else like China or Russia will take it instead, that's paraphrasing, of course. And regarding Putin attacking Ukraine,

Trump momentarily disavowed it and then immediately pivoted towards NATO for some reason. And finally, when he was asked about Matthew fucking Whitaker, Trump said, we don't talk very much. I mean, I haven't spoken to Matt very much. I put him there, but we speak really very little. The molar investigation is what it is.

It just goes on and on and on. What an interesting ending there. He's what it is. It sounds like a song. Yeah. It is what it is. It just goes on and on. We need a song.

Yeah. Yeah, like it. Our theme song. Yeah, no, he really didn't have much, many cohesive thoughts in this interview, but I guess we learned some interesting things. I mean, in terms of Jesus, I don't know though, the whole comment that really struck me

was the gut thing, but I guess that's nothing to learn. It's just, we learn that Trump repeats himself all the time, basically, we learn that he doesn't have a broad vocabulary. He just interviews are not a good idea for him. They're entertaining for us, but every time he has one, it just gets more and more disturbing. That's interesting that he sat down with Washington Post. I mean, that's owned by Bezos, right? He hates who also owns Amazon, and he was trying to get the Postal Service to

uphits their shipping costs, which is again an abusive power But he pressured the Postmaster general to do that. That was yeah, we reported on that a couple months ago So I don't get why he sat down. He's like, I'll just fake news, but I'll have an interview Yeah, I wonder maybe he's this is before the the Coen situation dropped to so I wonder if maybe he was like, oh, everything's fine, right? And then suddenly he's like I shouldn't have have done that. Yeah. And then at the Christmas tree lighting, he looks down at his phone, flips out leaves, leaves the press, leaves the whole press core there. That had to have been that Cohen stuff. Absolutely. I don't know. Yeah. So

this was the calm before the storm here. Yeah. Totally. I'm gonna go guys. Well, jury calls. That's great. What an idiot that guy. Fuck. I don't know. I don't know. All right. Well, what's up in Nunez lands?

Yeah. So Nunez and just the House Intelligence Committee in general, at least the GOP leadership there, is in a bit of trouble now because interesting. This is irresponsible piggybacking journalism because I totally forgot with news agency, but this out, but it's not a major one. So I'll find it and we can tweet about it. I'll put in the newsletter or something. But they had this great explanation

of how they screwed themselves over so much because when they were conducting all of their investigations and questioning all of their witnesses, they were trying to aid in a bett trump and his efforts to conceal his crimes. And so they were encouraging their witnesses essentially to answer questions in a way that would cover up for Donald Trump, which now we know in hindsight

is certifiably lies. And now they're in a position where leadership is switched over as we know. And now they're basically, they dug themselves a nice hole that the Democrats get to come in and start referring all of these lying instances to Mueller. They knew this was coming. They knew that, you know, maybe they didn't know how badly they were going to get their

asses kicked, but they knew that they were going to lose the house. So it's amazing to me that, and I don't know that they actually went to these guys and encouraged them to lie, but what I think what they certainly did was as they'd asked questions and then ask no follow-up questions. Right. And the question was very leading. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, leading right to the explanations that Trump has been given. Or has been giving, I should say. And Nunez, so Swalwell, our boy Swalves, he's he went on

national television and called Nunez out saying that he knows that Nunez is holding the transcripts of these interviews and an attempt to slow down the process of these people becoming just, you know, a reminder, I guess. Yeah. A reminder to their committee, their newly elected leadership. And I can expect what's interesting is that it's unprecedented to refer, like we talked about, to refer cases of perjury and lying under oath to Congress to a special prosecutor, blows my mind why that is a precedent.

I don't understand why it's not a thing to do that. But now, especially after what happened with Cohen, and then it came out that he's lied to both House and Senate committees. Demolendant. Right. That, yeah, well, it seems like he's charging Mueller's charging people with stuff that you don't normally charge people with, but our laws, like like I feel like one of and we'll find out when Flynn gets sentenced That I think Flynn's gonna be charged with violating the Logan act which hasn't been fucking charged on anybody for You know 100 years, but I think that was maybe one of the things where he's like plead guilty to the Logan act and I'll you know

We'll set you up, but you can tell me everything. Like, I feel like that's something he would do. Yeah. Because I remember we talked about McGann, the White House Council, Googling the Logan Act, Logan Act, and Googling what the, you know, the consequences for lying to Congress are when Sally Yates came to the White House and told him, you know, your boyfriend, not really forthcoming to the FBI. And then she was, you she was mysteriously fired. Oh, I wonder why.

You know what I like about that segment? It would swallow coming out. Is that now I thought of a new phrase for him, swallows to the wall. Oh, I like it. Skeets, Skeets. Yeah, when he comes out and he comes swinging, swallows to the wall. Yeah. Do the windows to the swallows?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From the windows to the swallows. Till the end. There's no windows in jail. Drop down my eyes and look at that. Yeah, let's not talk about that. And two white boots. Yeah.

Two white for rapping. That is for me. For me. I'm fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My self-included. Although I am dropping my mixtape this week. Oh.

It's exciting. MCAG. MCAG. I love it. My boyfriend did say the first time he met you, you were rapping in a parking lot. Yeah. Yeah, I heard the same story from my other friend. Yeah, yeah, it's infamous or famous.

I guess. Yeah, yeah. I can freestyle pretty well. Hell yeah. We'll have to do that as a mini-suit, become a patron. Oh, so... You don't want to hear my laugh. I actually really do. So pretty much, yeah, what's happening in the house now is they sewed their own seeds

of destruction by leading these testimonies into perjury, basically. And now that's what's going on in the house, what's going on in the Senate, which, as we still know, is under Republican leadership, they are now, their hand has been forced now because of what's come out about Cohen. So they are saying that not even Cohen specifically, they actually said they didn't refer the case to Cohen or to Mueller, Mueller came to them and said, give us what you got basically and then no issues. They just handed it right over to Mueller. But what they did say that they're doing is they're beginning to go through

and refer those cases of perjury to Mueller. And yeah, so that's very nice that they're doing that. I've always said that the Senate committees are way more trustworthy than the House committees under Republican leadership. You have to say that, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I like this quote from Richard Burr. He's a chairman of that committee. He says, we have made referrals from our committee

to the Special Counsel for prosecution. And a lot of those cases, those might be tied to lying to us. Those might be. In a lot of cases, those might be tied to lying to us. Those might be. In a lot of cases, they might be tied to what it's supposed to be, which I think means a lot of them are tied to lying to them. And then he also has a great quote in here talking about, he says, we're certainly not scared to refer something that we believe is criminal. And lying to Congress is right at the top of that. My message was if you lied to us, we're going to catch you and we're going to prosecute you.

Prosecute you. Prosecute something interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good quote. And I fucked it up. And we're going to prosecute you period end of sentence in case you didn't know what a period was. I would he say end of.

That's what he said. Yeah. He says end of sentence. Period end of sentence. Full stop. End of sentence. Full stop. That's all she's broke.

That's good. That's good. That's what they do say. Yeah. So I love that. That's great. Yeah. It gives me a lot of faith. I mean. Yeah. So I love that. That's great. Yeah. It gives me a lot of faith. I mean, like I said, their hand has totally been pushed.

It's like, what are you going to do? Run from the fact that Cohen is very publicly said that he lied. It's like, yeah, how are you going to withhold documents from special counsel? Exactly. And if they're doing it to Cohen, then they've got to go through and do it to the other people that they've talked to.

They've talked to. They've talked to over 200 people, by the way, since January 2017. I did not know that. Yeah. Over 200. She's got yeah Yeah, so it's pretty so fun. Yeah, it is so the guy who said Bur as the guy who said that it's gonna take them at least six months to write up their report Wow, and so this isn't I mean this is gonna keep going for a well into 2019 at least on the Senate

Judiciary and Intel side. Yeah, so we'll see how that comes out Yeah, so the House and the Senate even though they're different leadership, I think they're coming together on this, they're going to start taking people down the path of justice as they should have been, which will be very satisfying for all of us that have, I mean, we have Purgery right in the intro to our podcast. Yeah. Jeff Sessions. All these people, they got to start being held accountable. Absolutely. It's been a long time. Yep. And then I want to end this because I love I love Adam Schiff. He said he specifically calls out Roger Stone saying that a turbidvisor Roger Stone is someone who has said many answers that are far from truthful

to us, which is nice. I like that. Yeah, well that'll come out in the stone and darkness too, I think. And right now, as we speak, Mueller could be pressuring Stone to flip too. Yeah. And, but, but I, as far as I know, Stone hasn't talked to the grand jury, Stone's a pure target. And, and he might not be interested in getting him to flip.

Yeah. Far from the truth. As far as the North Pole he lives. Oh yeah, it's like operating his head along again. Those phrases. Far from the truth. Yeah, very far. All right, so as it turns out, I want to talk about Manafort because Cohen was not the money shot this week, even though I'm sure he thinks he is. Anyhow, last week, I put some means on a major prediction saying that the molar order of operations was that first Trump would have to turn in his answers, then Mueller could indict Stone, and then we would get a Manafort sentencing document on Monday.

And I told everyone that Mueller may not spell out Manafort's crimes on Monday, and that he may just say, quote, we recommend moving to sentencing, basically, without saying anything about the crimes, because he could need more time, or because Whitaker might block the indictments. Well, that's pretty much how it went down. Mueller asked for 10 more days in the Manifort case saying that if the court would just wait, he would be able to give them better and more complete information about his cooperation. And he did that on the 16th and he moved it back to the 26th, which was this past Monday.

And then Monday, we all thought Mueller was either going to indict Stone and all of his collaborators, and then outline all of Manafort's crimes, something, but something really strange happened. Mueller did in fact tell the court that we should just move to sentencing, and he did not outline all of Manafort's crimes, even though he now has Trump's answers about collusion and could indict Stone and the rest. But not only did Mueller and Manafort's crimes, even though he now has Trump's answers about collusion and could indite stone and the rest. But not only did Muller and Manafort's lawyers recommend they moved to sentencing, but he also told the world that Manafort was backing out of his plea deal. He blew it up.

It turns out that not only did Muller need more time to prepare the stone indictments, but likely because, I don't know, of course he also blew up his plea deal, but that the 10-day delay was to actually give Manafort one last chance to not ruin his whole entire life. We knew from reporting a couple weeks ago that Manafort talks were breaking down thanks to ABC who reported that the Manafort plea deal was in jeopardy. So we really should have seen this coming, especially knowing that A, Manafort probably never intended to cooperate and only did so to share information with the Trump legal team and avoid himself and his family being an enemy of the Kremlin, and B. that Manafort is a huge piece of shit.

But in my opinion, Mueller never needed Manafort because he had destroyed his credibility as a witness already by obstructing justice when he suborned a witness causing Amy Berman, Judge Jackson, if you're nasty, to revoke his bail. So his cooperation was likely only meant to give special counsel, special counsel potential leads in the case. Given that the jury and the Virginia trial didn't believe gates, there's no way any prosecutors in this case were going to rely on Manifort as a credible witness anyway. So I'm sure Mueller had no problem like cutting him loose and telling Manifort to kick rocks and just recommended the court for his ass and jail.

Basically, go right to sentencing. But not only will he be sentenced for the crimes he's already pleaded guilty to, he could face new charges, including the ten felonies that were dismissed without prejudice by crazy as honey badger judge Ellis from his first trial, but also new crimes we haven't seen yet, because Muller was keeping his collusion cards close to his chest, right? If you all remember one of my biggest hills of beans that I've been, you know, theorizing on for a long time, was that by cooperating, Manafort was avoiding being charged with supersining indictments for crimes of collusion. And since the spring, I've been tracking all the clues that Manafort was facing additional

charges, and in episode 23, way back in the spring, I laid them all out. The first clue was Mueller's filing that included the redacted Rosenstein memo outlining the scope of the investigation. We saw that for the first time in the spring. And it said that Manafort could be investigated for crimes of collusion. Then there was the Manafort Minute Order filed by Judge Jackson of Furnaste stating that Manafort was challenging the appointment of Mueller and was seeking relief from current and future crimes. And then there was the Manafort warrants from that friendly

No-Knock 4am raid that showed that five of his mobile phones were seized in March, indicating that not only was he still under investigation for future crimes, but and that's like beyond the money laundering and tax fraud charges he was already facing, but the Mueller was tracking his movements by investigating those cell phones, which could have included corroborating the public reporting of Manafort's meetings with Kalimnik, for example. Then, there was the Mueller filing, reminding everyone that Vanderswan was under a FOIA waiver, because he had sensitive information about open and ongoing investigations involving Manafort.

And then finally, there was the time the judge ruled that Manafort warrants could, or sorry, they would have to remain redacted because they contained quote information that's not part of the current prosecutions involving Manafort. Unquote. And now that I think about it, actually, I can't help but wonder if Manafort was trying to release those warrants to the public so he could communicate that information to the Trump legal team. Much like Corsi has released his draft play agreement to the press in what I believe is an effort to signal Trump

that he'd kept his story straight and to please pardon him. Especially in light of the reporting that came out this week that his lawyers were in communication with Trump's lawyers, Manafort's lawyers were, after he signed his play agreement. After all, they remained in the joint defense agreement, which we all thought was really strange at the time.

If you recall, we had talked about the joint defense agreement because dissolving it seemed to be the clue, the big clue that someone was flipping. And so we were, you know, they were talking about Manifort being and talks about a plea agreement, and we were waiting for that dissolution of the joint defense agreement. That's how we do gates and Cohen and Flynn were going to flip because right before the news dropped on them, it was publicly reported that each of them had backed out of their joint defense agreements with the Trump's legal team. And it's not illegal to remain in one, but it does present ethical and licensure problems for the lawyers if they continue to communicate with somebody they're ratting out. Not to mention, but I think that's why Trump leaked his own answers to Mueller's written questions on collusion, so he could signal to Manafort, Stone, and Corsi, and everyone

what he had told Mueller so that they could all make sure they kept their story straight and were singing off the same sheet of music. And that proves that there was conspiracy to lie to special counsel, but that's incredibly hard to prove, as Renato was telling us earlier. But proving obstruction and witness tampering doesn't belittle the underlying crimes, meaning that regardless of whether or not Mueller has proof they all worked together to lie to prosecutors, they all still violated US code 18 section 371 and they're attempt to collude with Russia to fix the election. So the underlying crimes are still there. And now we know that you don't have to complete the crimes or even be aware of them in order

to be found guilty of conspiracy because of the ruling in the Concord Management case that I mentioned earlier. Of course, Trump did come out this week and say he's not taking a pardon off the table. So it might not actually be that hard for Mueller to prove corrupt intent in these obstruction charges. But either way, the audacity is amazing. I mean, at least Nixon tried to hide his crimes, but here we have an administration publicly announcing

that they're dangling pardons and sharing their testimony with the public so everyone involved can know what they're supposed to say to Mueller. There's another theory out there that Mueller pushed back the stone indictments because he was waiting for the final Mississippi Senate race to be finished. Thereby honoring that unwritten Justice Department policy prohibiting movement on the investigation until after the election or so as not to interfere

publicly with an election or influence it at all. We learned this past Friday that Manafort will be sentenced on March 5th, but that the sentencing report outlining all of his crimes and lies, quote unquote, that's what it said in the document, will happen on December 7th. So that sets the countdown clock for us. By December 7th, all indictments that touch Manafort will be unsealed, including his own superseding indictments, and the felonies committed by stone, a sange, corsi, wiki leaks, boil, at all, all those guys, or in order to avoid making public

all the criminal conspiracies involving Manifort and Stone, Mueller could file that December 7th Manifort's sentencing report under seal. So while Cohen pleading guilty and avoiding a traditional plea agreement to seem more like a hero unless like a giant piece of shit, that is big news, but we've been following super seating indictments on Manifort for crimes of collusion all year, and that could be spelled out for us on or by December 7th. Yeah, also, if I may add this little thing I've been thinking about,

as we're getting closer and closer to people actually getting sentenced and more and more people are getting sentenced I think preemptively I'm trying to prepare myself for the let down that is I don't think I'm going to feel a huge Catholic when these people are sentenced because the reality is what they've done is already done and that damage is here and it's still affecting our democracy and we don't even like talking about the nuclear reactors, there's so many different things that have such sweeping implications. And especially people like Manifor who were just basically going as far as it could until they just get put in jail and that's a safe place for them. It's like, I don't think it's going to be very cathartic. Aside from the fact that justice is, you know, given, it's not at all like

closing up any sort of, you know, given. It's not at all like closing up any sort of, you know, it's not closure really. Yeah, the hope for me is that the rest of the world is not judging the American people for the actions of this guy. And that they're kind of like waiting, they're like, we're just gonna have to wait this shit out. And then we can go back to all being,

have our allies, be our allies, and our adversaries, be our adversaries. There's nothing wrong with diplomacy, but collusion and conspiracy and money laundering and the grand bargain is Steph A. Abrams then calls it. If you go to if you don't follow Steph A. Abrams, you should you should follow him on Twitter. His threads are incredible and he's got that new book proof of collusion. Anyway, we're gonna see what's happened. We're gonna see what happens really soon. Even if it's more hurry up and wait. Or new laws.

I do hope that we get new laws out of this that might put you bridge that gap you're talking about. Yeah, that happened at Watergate. We started restricting the executive power. And I think that that will definitely happen, especially when we take back the Senate 2020. Good point. All right, guys, we'll be right back. Hey, Mueller junkies, it's time for the 12 days of Mueller.

Each day we'll be tweeting and Instagramming discount codes for items in our online store like mugs, tumblers, t-shirts, and hoodies. They all make great gifts, so head to mullershierote.com and click on shop and find the discount code on Instagram and Twitter at mullershierote. Please keep in mind that you need to order by December 8th to get delivery guaranteed by Christmas in the United States. And you can give us the best gift of all by subscribing on Apple Podcasts and Google Play

and leaving us a rating. Thanks so much for supporting women in media and women in podcasting. All right, it's time for the fantasy indictment league. Yeah. It's time for the fantasy indictment league. Oh my god you guys there's just not enough spots on the team for all the indictments that are coming I think conjecture If you had Cohen on your team this week you get points for that good job You can play by becoming a patron at patreon.com slash muller she wrote and then joining

our friends of Justice Facebook page. I took Cohen off my team last week because I stacked my roster with Stone Associates because I was so sure those indictments were going to drop ahead of the Manafort hearing but he just pushed it back and blew up his plea deal, fucked up my life, Manafort, you get what you deserve. Yeah, you're the victim. I am. And I want to keep as many of those guys on my team this week, but in light of the Maniford deal blowing up, I have to draft Maniford again for superseding indictments and those

10 charges that Ellis dismissed without prejudice. But I have to keep stone and a sange and Corsi. And I think Corsi is going to cave. Like we talked about Jordan. I think he's going full number. So I'm going to say plea agreement for Corsi. Now last week I said you could add a plea agreement to an indictment for extra points, but we can't do that anymore because a plea agreement is in lieu of an indictment.

It's not an indictment, and a plea, you can see the one or the other. So you have to call a plea agreement to get the points. So that means I have Manafort, Stone, a Corsi plea agreement, a Sange, and I gotta put Junior on there for the point value because he's 20 points. Yeah, it's huge. What about you guys? Yeah, that's a really good,

like when you go first, I always feel crappy for my picks, because that's the best right there. I will say that I do wanna stick by a Rando. I know it's low, but I'm just hopeful that there's always gonna be that little surprise. So I'm gonna do a Randall Corsi, Cush, and Manafort of course.

And then I believe I had Stone. So yeah, I'm sticking with most of them. All right, there you go. That sounds good. Those are your five. What about you? Yeah, I am also in accordance with you on Corsi. I think he's going to cave.

So Corsi, please, deal, a sange, man of fort for those super-seating indictments. Is it separate if he gets retried for the ten and then also super-seating indictments as far as our league is concerned? Are we keeping those together? Unless he's indicted into separate charges on different days. Hmm. Interesting. All right.

Or in different weeks, I should say. Okay, walk even together because it's one week. So that's, and then let's throw on credit code. Please, agreement. Please, agreement for credit code. Okay. Noise. Now, did you want to do a coursey indictment

or a coursey plea agreement? I'm gonna go with the plea. All right. You guys ready for sabotage? Yes. Yes All right, so some crazy beans came through this week way back in episode 44 first week of September I dropped a story I called this week in What the Fuck. It was about Malaysian financier, his name was Jo Lowe, who laundered tens of millions of dollars stolen from the 1MDB.

And that's a hedge fund in Malaysia. Big bank, they robbed it, blind. And they used some of that money to pay US attorneys, including Chris Christie, who was repping him on some asset forefitcher shit in California, and Casowitz, who was repping him on some asset forefature shit in California, and Casowitz, who was repping him on Department of Justice matters. As you know, Casowitz is the lawyer that Kamala Harris was questioning Kavanaugh about asking if he ever talked with anyone from Casowitz's firm about the Mueller investigation, and Chris Christie is a human turd farm. The what the fuck part was that Broidy was working with Jolo and was introduced to him by Prasmishal, one of the founding members of now-defunct Hip Hop Band, the Fuji's.

You guys remember the Fuji's? Oh yeah, never forget. Never forget. hashtag Fuji's. Well, this week an associate helping Jolo Launder money named Higginbotham, who used to work at the Justice Department, he pleaded guilty and he's now cooperating to help him launder money. And as it turns out,

Jollo did launder the money and Broiti and the Fuji's helped him do it. So I really wanna add Broiti and Prasma Shell to my team, but I think that since the Manafort sentencing document is due December 7th, unless it's filed under seal, we're gonna see those indictments, those stone indictments and those Manafort charges.

And who knows how long that broady investigation could take. It could take a little while longer. So I don't know, what do you guys, do you wanna take broady or the Fuji's? Is the Fuji's like a rando, cause that could work out for me. No, cause we've named them. You're right, you're right, okay?

Unless you wanna replace your rando with the Fuji's. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. Yeah. Nice. Not all the Fuji's, Lauren gonna do it. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Not all the food. He's Lauren Hills finds. Yeah, Lauren's great.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna put the insane clown pasta on because I'm pretty sure that's what Jolo is a part of. What kind of a navels Jolo? I'm sorry. Sorry, no email. Sorry. He worked.

That's right. That's what they're called. Jogalos? Jogalos. Sorry, not Jogalos. Jogalos. Jogalos. Oh, I's what they're called juggalo's Jogalo's right not jogalo jogalo jogalo jogalo jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo

Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo

Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo Jogalo intitititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititititit Sorry, I'm sorry. Because I don't bother JLo, but Jolo, I'm fucking coming for him. Yeah, I like that. Great if you like replaced all of JLo's roles in movies. Like Made Manhattan, with Jolo, from stuff.

Oh my god, the wedding planner. Malaysian and Manhattan. Yeah, Malaysian. Just, as like a grad student's thesis on gender norms and media. Yeah, the trees in planner, and that's not really a plan. I think I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, to anybody but me But anyway, no, I'm not changing my fantasy Diabolism. Okay, okay, okay, but yeah, the other guy the other Malaysian that we remember when we got the yacht We got the $250 million yacht seized pretty much paid for the whole Kitten Kaboodle that guy was part of the group that stole all that money from from Malaysia interesting

Malaysia is always getting this short into this thing. I keep thinking about that plane I for image 370 that was shot down by a Putin. I don't know if there's any connection yet, but I always wonder why they're getting so screwed over. Yeah, maybe he was mad because these financiers didn't give many other money or didn't use him to wander the money. They bought movies instead. Like that one guy funded the Wolf of Wall Street and bought a Picasso for de Caprio or something like that.

The weirdest way is to laundromoney and all that shit was seized. So, interesting. Yeah, I mean, that is speechless, right? I have no idea what to say. Yeah, it's just really, it's weird. The foodies are involved. Ice cubes involved.

This thing is weird. Yeah, Kanye might be involved someday we'll learn. He's just a motherfucker. Yes, sure, very sure. My his own words. But I expect a quorum in the White House at all times. You must have decorum in the White House, Jim Acosta. You didn't have decorum. You didn't do the decorums ridiculous. And when you don't do the decorums and then yet motherfuckers that are hugging the projection like a mother fucker. So great. Today, on the interview, I'm joined by law professor, advocate, author of the financial

crisis book Other People's Houses, and she's one of the women that Jacob Wool and Surefire Intelligence contacted in an attempt to falsely accuse Bob Mueller of sexual misconduct. Please welcome Jennifer Topp. Um, please welcome Jennifer Todd. Jennifer, thanks for being on MSW. Thanks for inviting me. So, hey man, how about that Michael Cohen? Um, he keeps pleading guilty. Is he, is he, do you think he's a hero or is he just a criminal?

Um, I think a person can be a criminal and then become a hero and I, I think he's, uh, the John Dean of Stupid Watergate. You do. You think he's the John Dean of stupid watergate. You do. You think he's the John Dean. I was thinking McGann is like the John Dean. Well, maybe this time we'll have many John Deans, but so far, so far I really do think Michael Cohen is the gift who keeps on giving. And if you look at the plea deal from Thursday, as well as the late night filing by his lawyers from Friday, you can really see some hidden gems in

here as to why what he's doing here is kind of bulletproof. How do you think like how do you mean bulletproof? Okay, well, one of the we can talk bit about, first, maybe the substance of what he's, what he's pleading to. And then maybe also the bulletproof stuff. Let me flip it around, though. One of the biggest fears that people have is that somehow, no matter what Mueller finds, and no matter what the grand jury discovers and whoever they indict, there's this fear that many of us have that Trump will just pardon everybody, right? I mean, that seems to be the concern. So there's this kind of double concern. First, that he'll pardon

his friends, family, and others so that they will either not turn on him, but just also so they'll get away with whatever crimes are discovered. But there's also this concern that Robert Mueller will likely follow the Department of Justice guidelines and not indict a sitting president for federal crimes. And so this is a thing that kind of is, you know, kind of simmering on the back burner throughout everyone enthusiastically following Butler's progress. So here's what makes it what just happened, what Michael Collins plea makes it especially bulletproof is as follows. Right in the, on this, this filing from his lawyers from Friday night, the sentencing memo, is some interesting details. And for those following along at home, it's just on page two. So you don't have to even get very far into this 30 plus page document. Or it says that Michael Cohn has been very, very helpful. that Michael Cohn has been very, very helpful. He has actually not just met with federal prosecutors,

but he has met with representatives of the New York State Office of the Attorney General. Okay, so this is huge. That's Barbara Underwood. That's Barbara Underwood's office, yeah? Yeah, it's Barbara Underwood's office soon to be Tisch James Office when she's sworn in in January. And what's exciting for me about just a few sentences on page two is Michael Cone is appears to be cooperating in not just one and not just two, but actually three separate matters being investigated by the Attorney General's Office. Now let's keep in mind some of one of these at this moment appears to be a civil case, but it could take on criminal dimensions.

And it's not entirely clear what the other two matters are. And when I look at this, what I would say is it may just be one other matter, because there's a statement saying he's also provided the New York Attorney General with documents concerning a separate inquiry. And then there's also some discussion about the Department of Taxation and Finance. And that could just be, as far as we know, he had been talking about his own failure to pay taxes as part of his earlier plea, but that's also helpful, could be helpful in the investigation of failure for Donald Trump to pay taxes, the exposé, I believe, the exposé from the New York Times. So here's

what's key and what makes Michael Cohn's plea deal, especially good here, is that the president of the United States is, I think, you know, and many listeners now, does not have pardon power over state crimes. So. And also am I correct in somewhere I read or I learned or it's in my head?

I sound like Trump right now, but I heard on the internet that if you, that tax crimes aren't subject to double jeopardy laws. So even though New York has this sort of double jeopardy thing that they're trying to, you know, I think that Schneidermann and then Barbara Underwood were trying to get an exemption for this kind of situation, a presidential pardon. They do have that double jeopardy law in place still, but that tax crimes aren't subject to that law. Well, here's the thing. Let's, if you want to talk about double jeopardy, and then you can talk about the actual offenses in New York,

the double jeopardy situation is a little tricky now because as you may know, the Supreme Court is now hearing a case on this very topic. So, E. Is that the gamble, gamble VU-S case? Yes. Right, I feel like it's not as prohibitive because I mean, well, first of all, gamble went to jail.

And I think the timing is important because if Trump pardons any of these guys before they go to jail, they could, there could be that argument that it's not the same, it's not, it doesn't fall under the gamble umbrella or precedent. Yes, it's a gamble, it's a gamble case. And so the Supreme Court is looking at whether the prohibition and the Fifth Amendment against putting someone twice, you know, twice in jeopardy for the same offense. They're looking at this to decide whether is it the same offense if a state authority is prosecuting someone for a crime, rising out of the same set of facts that a federal authority has prosecuted them for.

So currently, under the dual sovereigns doctrine, which has been in place since the mid-19th century, states can go ahead and prosecute for the same crimes that the federal government does. Crimes arising at the same actions, right? And the states can do that and so can the federal government and they've considered to be separate sovereigns. And the word same offense means it's a concept of the offense being against the state, right? The victim, you know, when the state, people versus defendant or US versus defendant, the idea is that the state or the federal government is vindicating some kind of wrong and that the offense is the offense against, you know, the body politics.

So that's been the doctrine for a very, very long time. And it's possible that the Supreme Court could reverse that and come up with a different theory and and not allow and treat as double jeopardy. You know, that you would only treat a double jeopardy. A state trying to. crimes of the federal government did. But even if that happened, even if the court did that, it's not really, it's, I don't see that as somehow protecting the folks who are being looked at in state court. And he, okay, so then that kind of falls out of the purview of rising from the same facts. But let's just go back to what you said. If you don't pay state taxes and let's say it's a crime, right, using that as an example, not paying your state taxes is a different act than, for example, not paying your federal

taxes, right? So it's not just the entity, it's the executives, which I think sometimes has more teeth, or at least that's my understanding of it, But I mean, this could just be, this could be all linked to the payoff of Karen McDougall, for example, because I think that that might have gone through. Yes, exactly, exactly. And similarly, the key thing that's very exciting about this document, page two that I'm excited about, is that it says that Cohn's been cooperating in meeting with the New York AG regarding this lawsuit that underwood the AG brought against the Trump foundation.

That's his charity. And also against the directors of that foundation, that includes Donald Trump himself as well as his three eldest children. Oh, right. That wasn't the foundation, it was the organization. And the foundation is the one, like they were just taking all this money that was donated to charity and using it, spending it on campaign stuff. Actually, I think the, if I recall correctly, that the payoffs of McDougal and the payoff of Stormy Daniels, it did not,

they didn't involve the charity. And personal, the allegations in the Underwood complaint is that yes, they were using money that was given to this charity for Trump's personal expenses, for campaign expenses, and also to settle certain debts that his businesses had, and that's not okay under state law. So again, let me just point out, businesses, whether it's a for-profit corporation or non-profit corporation, they're always organized under the law of a given state.

And so even if Trump wanted to sort of preemptively pardon his children and maybe even himself for any crimes arising out of what he might have done involving this charity, it's not going to work because there are state crimes, you know, these these are state crimes that are being I'm sorry, in this case, they're not crimes, yeah, these are civil Civil violations that are being alleged, but let's imagine that some of these rose to the level of state crimes, I just don't see these as being You know, the same kind of offense, I don't see there being an analogous federal offense. So again, I realize I'm getting way into the weeds here, but it's very exciting because it seems to me that you can find a lot in these documents to have a little hope that no one is above the law. And to the extent that Trump and his family members use their charitable foundation to inappropriately

and unlawfully and possibly even criminally to fund the campaign. This is not something that will just be brushed aside easily with some partens. Right. But do you think, I mean, you had mentioned earlier that we might not necessarily be looking at indictments of a sitting president because I think you're right.

I think Bob Mueller is just, he's going to follow policy as best he can. He's, I think he's even narrowed the scope of his investigation more narrowly than he even needs to by the, you know, the outline that Rosenstein put out of what he's allowed to investigate. He seems to hand everything off that's not directly related. So I feel like he's a rule follower. But do you think that he is? He's so by the book. But do you think that I mean, we're looking at, oh, you know, I had David Prieson and he

has this book out called How to Get Rid of a President. And so we've been having discussions as to how people think it's going to go, because, you know, aside from inditing a sitting president, which I don't think he'll do, that kind of leaves us with either impeachment or we vote a mountain 2020. So I was wondering, just, you know, I was curious as to what you thought, because I know Komi has said he would rather see people vote and use their voices to make, you know, to kind of, you know, I don't know, put in their verdict about this president. And then there are others who are, you know, yelling impeachment and impeachment.

I was wondering what you thought about either of those choices. Well, I mean, there might be a third choice there. So let me start with the third choice, sticking with the states. There's no guidelines that I'm aware of that would discourage a prohibit a state from prosecuting a sitting president. I'm not sure that that would happen. Seems awfully bold, but states have prosecuted sitting governors before. Just let's keep that. So let's keep that in mind. But also, you know, for me, I think there is, as a law professor who studies white collar crime,

as well as political corruption and corporate power, I'm really interested in the question of whether a president or someone with a lot of power is above the law. And so the method, the question about what's the right way to get him out of office isn't really how I approach this. I look at it as in say has he violated the law. And so when we look at the possibility of impeachment, yes, I think that the house should begin impeachment hearings and look into whether there is sufficient evidence to have a vote in the House for impeachment. And if so, then I think the process should move to the Senate. And I think this is important in light of what appear to be already impeachable offenses. And I think that there's a mistake when people say, let's just wait and see what Mueller finds.

Because although Mueller has a very broad mandate, it is not unlimited, and he is not tasked with exploring the constitutional violations, including those from day one. And as I'm sure you know, the president has been accused of violating the conflicts of interest clauses in the Constitution, what we call the emoluments clauses. And you know, that's not something Mueller is investigating or will investigate. something, Mueller is investigating or will investigate. New York, New York AG is pretty bold. Whoever, whoever sits in that seat, they're pretty bold. Right. And it's so, that's what's so, it's so interesting. Yeah. Right. And also just going by, you know, some of the Nixon articles of impeachment, the abuse of power situation where, you know, I remember he pressured the postmaster general to raise prices on Amazon and how he's saying he's going to release classified documents on Democrats.

And he wanted to prosecute Comey and Clinton. So like he's got the abuse of power down. He's good at it. We don't need to wait for Mueller to know that. And even the places where there's overlap, for example, obstruction of justice is a crime, it's a federal offense, but obstruction can also be a grounds for impeachment in it was with Nixon, and so even though they're the same concept, the standards of proof are different and the elements of what you mean by obstruction is different as well as abusive power also lying to the public repeatedly, you know, these are when you look at the grounds for impeachment of the Constitution. So included in that is some historical precedent as to what would fall within that.

And absolutely abusive powers is something. But these emolument clause violations, for which there are these private lawsuits moving forward. So far, it doesn't seem like there has been a court yet that has dismissed the case arguing or holding that he's not taking emoluments or payments. So in other words, these cases are moving forward into discovery. And I think that it really, these really should also be looked at and investigated by the House of Representatives in public hearings so we can all see what is actually happening.

So did I hear you say that lying to the public could fall under impeachable offenses? Because we know we've been discussing the Trump Tower Moscow that he said, I don't have any deals with Russia, I have no money in Russia. Meanwhile, he had this whole letter of intent. We got it in the minority report from Schiff actually that he was working on this other Trump Tower with Sater and his kids. But we've been saying and repeating ourselves lying to the public is not a crime, it's not a crime. But are you saying that doing that or at least being possibly compromised because you lied

to the public, something that could fall under impeachable offenses, high crimes and misdemeanors? Well, if we take a look at what Article 1 of the Articles of Impeachment against President Nixon and they're all these different paragraphs, let me just read it to it says, making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation

have been conducted with respect to allegations and misconduct and so on. So misleading the public was part of, was one of the elements of the obstruction of justice charge against him. So, you know, there is there is President for this. And we and so that, you know, getting back to to the cone, the cone plea, it's it really is incredible. And. And I want to use the advice, Adam Davidson of the New Yorker who did some excellent research on Baku Azerbaijan, the kind of corruption associated with some Trump buildings there. And I'm not sure if you read that piece. But he said, yeah, I did. And it really it had it was a lot about Ivanka as well. I think

she was heavily involved in that deal and Azerbaijan. Right. And she was supposed to be by the way heavily involved in this Trump Moscow deal, but Oh, yes her spa her fam her fantastic spa. I think she hired architects and everything. We all knew that already I think it was in it's a coffin corn's book too, right. He was the presumptive nominee at that time. Mm-hmm. But what's, and that's exactly the point, what you're saying and what we're kind of saying is what, what, what, um, Davidson says, and I think what we all know, but forget, is this is, this is not this sort of new piece of information that we now find out that even though the position has been from Donald Trump and from Michael Cone was dealing with extremely high level officials in Russia to try to get this Trump Tower Moscow project going.

So this is the truth that is coming out. And yet, we say, we act like it's the truth that's coming out as if it's the first time we've ever heard of this, but it turns out that BuzzFeed had even reported on this previously, right? And it turns out that this fits quite well into some of the allegations set forth in the Steele dossier. So what we're really, what David was saying, and I think is right, is that we need to not look at one example of Trump lying about his connections with Russia on its own. We should not look at one example of Trump misusing, let's say a business or a charity on its own, but we've

got to look at a pattern in practice of behavior. And what seems abundantly clear now is that Trump and the members of his inner circle, his family, what members at the White House, such as Michael Flynn, and his campaign have repeatedly lied about Trump's ties to Russia. And this seems like it was a coordinated effort. And what makes it even worse than that, you know, because when someone lies repeatedly about something, is that when he's caught, he says, well, even if I did it, it wouldn't be a big deal. Well, it really, you know, which is his last seems like his last defense or his next to last defense. I think the last

one is so what everybody does it. But he's, they're lying about this for a reason. And I think it's just the tip of the iceberg. But what makes it worse, not just they were lying, but they seem to be lying in parallel or coordination with the Russian officials themselves. So we have Peskov, very close with Vladimir Putin, covering up for Trump. So we had this situation in 2016 when it was clear that Donald Trump was going to be the Republican nominee. Well, oh, yeah, yes, exactly.

And I think the first Trump tower was an agilar off deal as well and they were at the Trump tower meeting in June so right and this is like June of 2016 right at that moment he is having Michael Cohen work on a deal to build a tower in Moscow and you know who they would have been working with in Moscow for that? The Kremlin, I would assume. So before I let you go, can you tell my listers where they can find your book? Oh, so my book on the financial crisis

called Other People's Houses is available wherever you buy books, independent bookstores, and online, including Amazon. And I recommend the paper back because I did an updated, I did a new preface for that. And then I also have a casebook on white collar crime, but unless you're a lost student, you really, you really don't want to buy that. You really, it's super interesting, right? Like people like, oh, I want to read your doctoral dissertation. I'm like, no, you don't. Not unless you need to go to sleep and you're out of ambient.

But if you also just want, you know, ongoing commentary on what's happening, I'm on Twitter away too much. And my handle is Gentob. That's J-E-N-T-A-U-B. Great. Okay, cool. So everybody follow at Gentob, T-A-U-B. And if you're cool. So everybody follow at Jen Togb, T-A-U-B. And if you're not already following Mueller,

she wrote, you can follow us at Mueller, she wrote. Thank you so much. This has been a really great and enlightening conversation. And I really appreciate your insight. And I'm just an armchair lawyer over here, but it's really good to actually speak to somebody who has a full grasp and understanding of some of the way that these crimes can be charged and what's going on.

So Jennifer Todd, thanks so much for being on MSW. Thanks for having me. All right, guys, that's our show. So again, be ready for December 7th, the Manifort Sentencing Report. He won't actually be sentenced until March 5th. We'll either find out all of his superseding indictments and all of his crimes and lies and the stone indictments before then or molar will file that shit under seal if it needs more time to prepare those charges.

So thanks to all of our new listeners and our OG molar junkies and patrons, if you haven't, please subscribe, follow us on Twitter and Instagram. If you're interested in becoming a patron, you can do that at patreon.com slash molar she wrote. We will see our patrons later this week. We have two bonus episodes coming out and the book club and everyone else. We'll see you next Sunday night. Thanks for listening.

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