JAR Media Posdact - Is The Last of Us Part II as Bad as They Say? (Spoilers)

Episode Date: July 3, 2020

  Timecodes: 00:00 Intro 01:22 The Leak 04:27 Spoilers 08:50 Advertising 12:57 Joel 30:23 Ellie 45:01 Dina 48:22 Tommy 57:46 Abby 59:44 Lev 01:14:28 The Jump 01:16:14 Epic Moments 01:18:39 Questions https://www.patreon.com/jarmedia Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/jar-media-store Twitter: https://twitter.com/FourFunnies  

Good afternoon, morning, evening or night, ladies and gentlemen. I am Jamie, hosting as good or bad as they say, our famous series, joined by... My Dear Brother. Clay Jensen, signing in. Also known as Alex. Yeah, sorry. Every now and again. It doesn't really matter which one you do.

No, no, it doesn't. As long as you do one of them. um yeah we've got quite the uh the controversy to talk about today we've got a big chunky topic for this one yeah a big fat topic so expect to at least what we're aiming for five six hours on this one i was thinking more about 25 hours like the same length of the game okay that's fair okay yeah so of course we're talking about the uh what's a good word to describe this one in terms of what everything

like the video game yeah video game that would do the last of us not two but part two it's that important

to the story that it's not yes because it's not the second one it's the continuation of the first one precisely right

now Alex why has this game been so controversial um we got to start with square one that being the leak good place to start

So a few months before the last two came out A One of the most insane leaks I have seen from a video game The most I have ever seen I'm willing to say that Like the biggest leak Because not only It wasn't just like one aspect One story beat

It was everything Yeah most of the story Was leaked Before it came out So Yeah And not like a typical leak where i remember like halo four bits leaked about it just little story nuggets here and there but

the yeah and it wasn't scenes were available to watch exactly it wasn't a case of um like a rumor because i remember before the leaks um it was rumored that there was like a religious cult aspect in the game yeah and that was like will there be won't there be whatever no big deal it's just speculation just a rumor but no this was full cut scenes we knew just facts about the story yeah yeah there's nothing you could deny

no one thing that was robbed though is the context of it all the framing of it was because I saw a bunch of the spoilers and a lot of it was just straight up wrong so yeah the the way we viewed this game was

kind of warped from the beginning definitely and I mean we had a question from someone on Twitter at Habex official who simply asked, did the spoilers ruin it for you? And that's a question I've been grappling with, because I don't know what my opinion would be on the game

if it had those surprises there for me that weren't ruined by the spoilers. Because so much of the controversy around this game is because from those initial leaks, the narrative was already kind of set in stone in a way. Yeah. As we saw with the review bombing from, day one and this is why this we spent ages trying to just figure out a way how to frame this

video and this conversation because this game isn't just a game anymore now it's this whole political side to it there's this whole narrative to it which goes incredibly deep in so many different ways so so the conversation's kind of been warped in such a way where a lot of the nuances is lost yeah there's so much to talk about there's there's not only all this stuff um the leaks and everything there's the controversy post leak there's the game itself just like the the facts about the game and then how all the controversy the leaks and everything has affected us like um mark i believe marky boy yeah good old market player yeah it's a strange one because i kind of see both sides and i know that's such a boring take to be like yeah i'm in the

middle. I see exactly where it is but um this video will be will spoil everything we can think of to do with the game so yeah so if you want to play it pause this video play the game come back and hear the important opinions yeah the two important opinions so where do you stand then is the last of us two part two as bad as they say no definitely not Absolutely not. Hands down, no. Yeah, I definitely don't think it's as bad as these review bombings indicate it as being. But I do have big problems with the story. I think it's definitely fair to say it's not what you wanted.

Yeah, I think from my read on it is that you like it more than I do. Yeah, I would definitely agree. Because I I came to the conclusion that the Last of Us to me meant something different to what it did to Nottie Dog Yeah For me, The Last of Us was not special

Because of its zombie apocalyptic universe Which we've seen countless times before What made it special was The new characters they established Yeah, the story they told Mostly that being Joel and Ellie and the relationship they built over that game. So I don't think it was too crazy to expect some kind of continuation on that story

with the dramatic nugget being set up and not fully explored in the first game. That being the truth of what happened with the fireflies and all that for those who played the first game and know what I'm talking about. but they kind of pull the rug from underneath you fairly quickly in part two and establish a different a totally different feel I would say there are points where it feels kind of more like the original lust of us yeah but I would say at like a top level it's definitely going for something quite different than the first game it's my more about exploring this these themes yeah um whereas the first one was more a very intimate

character study mostly about joel to be honest he was the main character yeah for sure and about where that kind of culminated and this exploring this grayness in this choice that i would say a lot of people can empathize with and part of the discourse at the moment is this this kind of debate about Joel and whether what he did in the first game was right or wrong, effectively. And that was part of what made the first game so interesting, because it didn't have a cookie cutter ending. It kind of ended on this vague cliffhanger where you could kind of imagine or assume whatever you wanted based on it.

Yeah, I thought after the end of the first game, it was kind of reasonable to assume that Ellie just didn't believe him. at all yeah it seemed clear from that last cutscene in the first game that there was clearly some suspicion there yeah there was a lot you could you could just tell that was like oh that that's like a new jumping off point for another story type thing um I don't know if I totally agree with you that it's a going for like it's a it's not a different feel to me um I think I I think it kind of is in the way that... I think aspects are totally different. Like, they really hammer home this, like, music connection between Ellie and Joel. Yeah, so... For the sake of the ending, which we'll talk about later.

But the reason I think the expectation thing is, plays a big role. And why I mentioned what I kind of thought the last of us was compared to what Norty Dog clearly thought it was is we have to talk about the advertising a little bit yeah and this isn't a way to like condemn the game and I'm still kind of mixed on how I feel about the way they did this but so what they did

in the official marketing for The Last of Us part two is they kind of teased Joel as being a more integral character in the story than he winds up being in the final game and it's not a new thing, a lot of different

companies make or adjust trailers to kind of frame things in a different way and make it look like the story might be going a different direction than actually is as a way so you can be surprised when you play the final product and I don't know

if it's just an oversight or they weren't really thinking about the way it comes across but it kind of advertises the game as more of a Joel Nelly kind of story yeah it totally does and I think that is definitely something you shouldn't do when it comes to advertising yeah but i'm i'm i'm left thinking how do they do anything else they can't reveal that you play half the game as

someone else because that's like part of the game and the game is structured around all these secrets um yeah and you playing at azbby for this the second half or however much it is kind of only works if you don't know that you're going to be playing as a sir yeah which they do allude to at the start of the game itself um so it's not that big of a shock yeah and also i'm thinking about from that very first trailer the one where joel comes into the room while ellie's playing the guitar yeah yeah the theories began of like how joel could be like a ghost or something or he's he's clearly you know dead in some way or there'll be something to do with his death. All the theories are about Joel

being like dying or being killed or yeah it was like the obvious place to take it yeah for sure because the character was so grey and he had such a yeah I think no matter what way you look at the ending of The Last of Us 2

whether he made the right decision or not what he did was bad like the amount of people he killed yeah was bad um So that character, I think, he sort of had to pay for the stuff he'd done. They had set him up as someone that's bad.

And in fiction, bad people tend to be punished. Yeah. It made sense. And I think it's what everyone expected in some form. However, it's the execution, I believe, to be the problem. I feel like this is where we just. have to kind of just get in to it with the kind of going through the major characters and the story because I mean let's be real is the story people are talking about not the game I really feel

like like the gameplay sorry I really feel like if the if the story was what I don't know what people were expecting a bit more I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing necessarily everyone be happy with it you know if it was what everyone dreamed of and it was and everyone was pleased with it and the gameplay was the same I feel like a lot of people would just be happy with that because a lot of it is improved over the first game it feels way less video gamey

with the moving the ladders around and you know every section that is sort of like that did sort of make me roll my eyes like the first thing you do when you switch characters to Abbey there's a bin that needs to be moved to climb over a fence

yeah I mean there's obviously a lot we can talk about with the gameplay but I feel like it's the story that's more interesting to talk about yeah yeah well that that's that's the controversial part yeah yeah that's what I'm trying to say so this might be the biggest point of contention with the game the Joel thing we've been being around the bush all this time but the the game practically opens with um jol being beaten to death by the new character Abbey um in the most like brutal way you can imagine shotguns his leg basically off yeah um then she makes a point of kind of dragging out his death and basically torturing him smashing his head in with a golf club yeah definitely torture

and the the point of the scene is to rob you of a character you have investment like emotional investment in to force you to be as emotional as Ellie in the moment so you you feel all the rage she does as a way to you know get you invested in her plight of revenge um Um, but as I say, it's kind of the execution of that scene that the emotional kind of tone of it reads wrong to me. I wasn't, I wasn't lost in the moment, like, with Ellie, like, empathizing with how horrible and horrendous it must feel. I was more just frustrated at the way it all came together and it clearly seemed like the scene was written in a way where that just had to happen. It didn't feel like a natural interaction, that whole beginning section with all the characters. really quickly coming together

and really quickly having this conflict and kind of skipping over everything. That part is oddly paced and I just want to ask though, you knew about the spoilers already when he first played. Do you think your reaction would have been

different to that whole segment had you not? I think I would have been shocked but I don't know if it would have been good shock because it really reminds me of The Walking Dead where there are those moments where it's all about the shock value. Yeah, I'm thinking my reaction would have been at first that scene I wouldn't have minded.

And, well, I mean, it would have pissed me off, but in the right way. Yeah. But then on repeat playthroughs, when you're expecting it, that whole segment just does not work leading up to Joel's death. Right. In my opinion. Okay. Like you said, the way all these characters have to. to converge in a really awkward way.

And, like, they, they, after they beat Tommy and Joel, killing Joel, and leave Ellie alive for whatever reason, like, there's just so many things that have to happen for the setup to even make sense. Yeah. Yeah, they, which I didn't understand the first time playing it. It was over. You're on this, like, hyper revenge mission. Why even leave any strands, you know?

it seems so weird you've trekked across the country for this one reason it should seem so obvious to them as well because from ellie's reaction um to joel being killed she literally say something like i'm going to kill you yeah yeah she literally does and and this character that killed joel has just gone on her own journey knowing how motivated she is to kill joel because joel did the exact same thing to her maybe it's a guilt thing that they left them alive because they Well that they do make you Some of the members of Abbey's gang are like Come on we don't need to Like that's enough type thing

Well they're all sort of Everyone in Abby's group is like Should we shouldn't we And then Abby is the one that says Well they're all okay with Joel dying Aren't they? Yeah yeah I think the majority of them were fireflies

And they all agree that he deserved To be killed in that way punishment yeah um but it is abby's choice to leave tommy and ellie and i i think my biggest problem with it is just the sheer brutality of it and i have no problem with the last of us being this hopeless violent world that makes sense but where it it struggles for me from a like storytelling perspective is they expect you to empathize with this character abby abby um after a certain and you already know her she is defined and she will always be defined as a character as the one that killed Joel and that is such an uphill battle to try and win you back and I know this is a debated point because for a lot of people they do think in that that section of the game where you play as Abbey that you do you are kind of won over to her and they develop her enough to to kind of complete what the game is going for where it's like hey the evilness of this universe we're playing playing with is more gray than it looks and when you see both sides of it everyone is kind of

exploring the same space you know everyone has the the evilness and the the the forgiveness and revenge cycle of it all is is kind of the heart of it I guess I don't know I don't know what to suggest about the Joel thing to make it better because a lot of people agree that the pacing in the game isn't great and the way the story is delivered is kind of muddy the way there are flashbacks within flashbacks the scene structure of things where you're getting payoffs for setups like 20 hours later which to be honest I'm kind of conflicted on if it works or not because depending on the medium that would be okay or not okay I mean I would say for me personally um the ending really works in an emotional

mm-hmm yeah because those story beats i was expecting to be explored in the last of us part two with joll and ellie are technically in there that's what's weird about this because after the joel the initial joll death scene and i was playing it and you're kind of like i don't know if i even care about this anymore but then you get to that first scene like a flashback scene of joll and ellie and you're like oh this is kind of the stuff i was expecting to see and then you keep playing and you get a few more and it fleshes that side of the story out a bit more and once you finish the game

you do see that story kind of played out it's just in an order you didn't expect yeah it's quite bizarre because often with games it's putting you in the perspective of a character and you're going through everything chronologically this game intentionally doesn't show you things that the character you're playing as knows yeah

but they show it to you. in a way to make it the most emotionally impactful and it's told like a story no it's not a story sorry a movie it's told like a movie yeah totally but movies aren't 25 hours long yeah that is it becomes a thing of would this have just been a better movie well it seems more like a TV show to me yeah or a TV show just something would the story they wanted to tell be be better as a movie or a TV show? Well, what I really enjoy about the story is this idea, and you can clearly see that the whole game is kind of based around this idea

of you as the character through means that you see as just enacting revenge for half the game, and then it switches sides, and you see the other side of that conflict, and you see what that evil revenge-fueled hatred kind of does and how it tears apart a group that is, in essence, kind of the same as what Ellie came from. Yeah, that's totally not what happens, though. You know? Abby doesn't...

The majority of her story has nothing to do with Ellie, and that whole revenge aspect. After Joel's death, it just becomes two separate stories, which then come back together. yeah like honestly trying to describe the structure is so bizarre it's really strange um because you have your your introduction that ends with Joel dying then you have three days we play as Ellie and then it goes back in time and you play for three days as Abbey yeah and the same three days I think that could it would have worked a lot more if Abbey

didn't have flashbacks within her own days. I think if they they emphasize the sort of remorse and regret of doing what she did to Joel, not just because she killed someone, but because of the way she did it, would have made you empathize with her more. They allude to the fact that the other characters that you're introduced to being Lev and her and his, sorry, older sister. they allude to her saving them as she's got she needs to like redeem herself but do you think going back to Joel's death scene for a minute so I'd forgotten to bring this up do you think it would have been more effective if the death scene wasn't as excruciating as it is or do you think it needs to be that extreme for the story to even work in the first place

I think I think it could have been that extreme if they emphasised Abby sort of learning that she shouldn't have done it like that maybe she should have just gone and shot him or not tried to at all

but when I came to the end it didn't feel like she regretted it at all and when she's like yeah true when it comes to Ellie's final confrontation with her she's not like look at where I am because of what I did I think on paper I really don't have an issue

with a lot of this story I don't mind the idea of this cyclical revenge thing however I just don't think the drama between Ellie and Joel was fully explored and yeah that uphill battle of just trying to get you to connect with Abby yeah it just especially with how bad her first day is

it really took me I really fell onto the gameplay at that point once I started playing as Abbey I was like well I'm not really into this story but I'm just kind of enjoying the gameplay loop of this at the moment so I'm going to keep playing I paid for this I want to see how it all comes together and there was a point during the second or third day as Abbey where I was kind of getting more into it because they explored a bit more of the world building

Yeah, that was a really good idea But also I think I already said But it's the flashback stuff that sort of kills it for me Yeah, I'm not sure what I'm not sure what I wanted to see out of Joel and Ellie But the beats were hit in the game And when you get them

I guess my problem with it is The way they come across isn't in an emotionally satisfying way Because you already know he's dead For some that might be like a nice kind of irony I don't know that's no that I that's something I disagree with

because him he needs to be dead for so at the end of the game Ellie essentially forgives Abby and yeah stops and then it shows you

the scene where she says I'm trying I'm going to try to forgive you to Joel um so after learning that the whole story is about Ellie forgiving Joel for the decision he made without Ellie getting a say in the matter yeah which to me it that's that's the arc it's like a smart way of doing the arc I wanted to get from this game yeah that revelation of Ellie see like learning

the truth and then where does she go from there and this game is is that story yeah it's her forgiving Joel. He did need to be dead, in my opinion, for that beat to be successful. Because a lot of people are saying, well, if only we'd gotten the flashbacks at the beginning, then you'd have more context and emotional kind of investment. Again, I totally disagree with that. Yeah, I can't decide because either way seems kind of clunky to me. No, because the other option would have been, I suppose you could have shown that at the beginning, like have the whole party scene at the beginning, and then show it again at the end.

Because like you said, it's been 25, 30 hours since you've seen it. You need to be refreshed. It's such a unique thing. Yeah, and in that regard, I quite like it. Yeah, because that's what I've been. struggling with is most stories aren't like 25 hours long in this way and I don't think you are expected to play it in one chunk either no definitely not whereas like a movie you are kind of more expected to yeah for a TV show you watch it an hour long chunks I think that's why

the the storytelling is just baseline storytelling people are giving it shit for its pacing but it's actually quite smart the way they've done it in a way because But the pacing is also kind of fucked, though. No, I think I'm expressing myself wrong. The pacing is bad, but the storytelling is good. Storytelling, specify what you mean by storytelling. Do you mean like the cutscenes? Do you mean the environmental storytelling?

When they choose to give you certain information, like my point with Ellie giving her thing about the, Forgiving Joel. Yeah. If you had that at the beginning, it would be a throwaway line. I mean, it wouldn't have as much investment because... No. Yeah, I...

It gives you the information when you need it, as opposed to when it happened. Well, yeah, I went on such a journey with this game. Yeah. Because you play it for a bit, Joel dies, and you're kind of, like, bummed out. And you just keep going. and it does win you over in ways and lose you in other ways

and then like when I thought the Joel and Ellie thing was just done they give you like a couple moments here and there and by that final cut scene I was kind of like

what is it that I don't like about a lot of this but then I go back and I'm like God I really wouldn't want to play that bit again I don't want this interaction I might have to play

the whole game again to truly refine what I do and don't like but a lot of it will come down to it's like a slamming of the brakes when you change to Abbey Yeah Like you've really built up to this point

Yeah It's like the end of season one Now you're going into season two That's a good way of putting it actually It is like two seasons of a TV show Yeah for sure And so why are we not okay with that here But say like Red Dead Redemption

Which is what 80 hours long? Red Day Redemption is a proper open world this game is linear I think it just comes down to that if this game was like a true open world I think the story would have come across way better why is that

um because with an open world game a well designed one like red dead um I mean disagree with me whatever

that's my opinion bro um it they those games inherently have ups and downs like moments of like adrenaline and

stuff happening just all the time and then there's you just exploring the world and whatnot this game it goes like combat combat combat combat combat slow bit combat combat combat combat combat

combat combat right we also have structural things like early on in the game there's a fairly lengthy segment where it is a kind of semi-open world section with Ellie and Dina.

Yeah. But that's the only time in the game there's an open world kind of sequence or segment and everything from after that is linear. Do you think that was like a pacing thing them trying to establish this new relationship with Dina and...

Yeah, I think a big part of that is just trying to make you like Dina. Because she's one of the most vital characters in the story. Yeah, she is. Which I don't really have a problem with, to be honest. Well, what about Ellie? We've talked about Joel.

Yeah. Ellie and Abby are basically the main characters. This is Ellie's story. Like, absolutely 100%. But if it's Ellie's story, you don't play a surfer half the game. Yeah, it's more like a third of the game. you don't play as Ellie yeah that's probably not fair

what I was fearing with the game because I'd heard some spoilers and not because I'd heard Ellie he dies yeah that's what I'd heard too I thought she did so I was really fearing that the game would just end with you playing as Abbey and that'll be that

oh okay but when it goes back to Ellie it that that made so much of it so much better for me right because that starting a a character and then finishing as that character that makes it their story to me yeah i was i was much

more into it the second time you became lea yeah definitely for that last section i was really like kind of motivated to go through because i understand what was going for by then but that section where you are playing as abbey like i really had to push to get through that first day because i really it really felt like it was kind of falling apart for me yeah it felt like the beginning of a new game. It's really bizarre. But while the other major story thread is just kind of put on the board and you don't get

pay off for it for countless hours. Yeah. So do you like her overall arc then? Abbeys. It depends how much of... No, Ellie's. Oh, Ellie's. Yeah, absolutely. So, so how do you

grapple with this then? And this bothered me in the Her entire motivation is this revenge to kill Abbey for what she did to Joel. But in doing so, you go on a murderous rampage of the likes of which have never been seen. You go across how many states, murdering how many hundreds of people, which are established and clarified as being just as innocent as Ellie. Is that part of what they were going for? are going for do you think do you think that's an oversight with like the whole thing of killing hundreds of fucking people that are all like screaming each other's names while you're

throwing you know molotovs on them and they're burning alive and then is this this this this fucking cringe pseudo narrative dissonance thing or do you think it is actually part of the story i think they gave more thought to it than on the surface level you would give it credit for um the way the fact that when you're playing as abbey who is one of these people then starts killing them as well

wait so when you're abbey when you're abbey you kill wolves yeah it's like a moment in the story yeah the fact that you do that as abbey justifies you doing it as ellie way more like the the fact didn't like the moment when you start doing it as abbey either it's it's quite abrupt but it's the choice makes total sense

like yeah you understand why she does it it's just like it's the gameplay thing of like man i gotta kill these people who used to be my like yeah they're never really they they do a lot to establish the wolves as not very good people yeah and they they overthrew the the local government to become a government just as bad maybe worse than the previous ones so i mean

what what does annoy me is that abby and her crew are free thinkers and they're real people with like they're with the wolves but they don't agree 100% with everything they do every soldier every enemy you come across in the game you just have to assume is a devout wolf right so it it takes a lot of that

complexity they added with the characters shouting each other's names and just makes them into a bad guy yeah that's what's confusing about it because they want you to empathize with the people you're killing with these yeah but at the same time

they make them so evil that they will kill an unarmed child for practically no reason yeah I don't know I'm still not sure how I feel about that yeah it's it's just video game shit like it's the stuff that's left over from games that hasn't been ironed out yet

because like would it even be stronger if it was more like a show or a movie so you didn't have countless hours of her just slaughtering people slit in their throats, them screaming in pain, fucking tearing them apart. That is something I want to briefly say about the gameplay.

Hmm. Why the fuck is there still one animation per character you play as for a stealth kill? That is weird. You can't have two? They do have two for Ellie,

but once you get the upgrade, then you're stuck to that one other animation. Fucking come on, dude. It is weird for a game that is visually so impressive with its animations. So impressive and so it really wants you to fucking use stealth. Just put some adjustments in there, please. Because I played the first game a lot to the point where I did it on the hardest difficulty.

That last level in the Firefly base, I didn't kill anyone. Really? The only person I killed is the one it forces you to kill. Abbey's Dad. Abbey's Dad. um and i yeah i played that game a shit ton and that game had the same problem this one fucking animation it's sure it's a nitpick but fuck me it it really pisses me off so yeah um ellie is established as being in a in a relationship with this new character dina yep um which as you

said is an essential story beat because my favorite part of her story is after you're done playing with abby and they get their corny little happy ending. Yeah, although that scene annoyed me. Which one? Just when Ellie keeps... Just going and like, she's got this baby and she keeps just fucking with Dina. I don't know, like, something about that...

It just felt kind of awkward. It definitely felt awkward, and I was rolling my eyes at, like, there's a scene in that open world section It might have been there, I can't remember But what's your dream What's your dream, Dina? I want to live on the farm

And they come across a bunch of money And they say, yeah, they're in a bank What would you do if we're in the old world? What would you buy? That's all this money. Oh, I'd buy a farmhouse. So that might actually be a missable bit of dialogue If it's in one of the side things.

It might be the vital. Oh, right. Yeah, either way. Yeah. They get their happy ending, but then. with all their sheep. But then the game doesn't end, of course, because Tommy gets some intel on where Abby is,

so Ellie decides that she has to end it. She has to fucking end it because she can't rest otherwise. Yeah, she's constantly getting like panic attacks and nightmares and can't sleep. So she decides to travel across the country maybe one last time and has her interaction with Abby where she ultimately, who decides not to take revenge. Yeah, and that is something a lot of people have issue with, issues with. I mean, she has to do it because that's the arc.

That's the story. If you kill her, if you killed her, I mean, it would feel even more. It would feel so vapid. Yeah, what would be the message? Just revenge is bad and everything. Then you'd play as Lev getting revenge. Yeah, I guess the story has to The cycle has to end

Yeah Unless you really did want to have this hopeless Like Nothing matters in this world Because everything is just fucking Hopeless anger Yeah Do you think it's quite reductionist to say

That the message of the The story is just revenge bad Yeah, it definitely is Because it's way more personal than that and I believe it is what I said earlier the story is Ellie forgiving Joel yeah Ellie forgiving her dad for letting her live

or for not giving her the choice yeah yeah no that's a good point however they I think it is just an execution thing because all this stuff we're describing on paper I do enjoy but then we get into the

pregnancy stuff and the the kind of silliness of the love triangle type stuff Yeah, yeah, right at the beginning It just doesn't feel like it's really fleshed out or developed No Who's the new character, Jesse?

Jesse's kind of in the love triangle Well, it's not really a love triangle Because they sort of imply it is At the end of the first day There's a scene where Ellie is helping Jesse back into the theater they're staying in and the way the scene is set up um dina immediately rushes to jesse and sort of helps him and ellie backs off and it looks like she's jealous yeah um feeling like left yeah so it yeah it is a love and and at this point she knows that he is the father

of her baby yeah and they really wanted to do this this echo thing with them Ellie and Abbey. So they each have a pregnant member of their group, you know? They each have the, like, father who gets taken out by the other one. Yeah. And... But something that annoys me about that duality. So, I mean, it had me rolling my eyes when both characters were revealed to be pregnant on each side, blah, blah, blah.

But they really set up one of the pregnant... The pregnant woman on Abbey's side is a... Leve? No, that's Mel. Lev is the trans boy. Oh, yeah, sorry, my apologies. Mel is the pregnant woman who... is a fucking asshole.

Yeah. Like, she's a piece of shit. In my opinion, I do not like that character. She's just hostile and petty, because Abby used to be with Owen and yeah they get back together and whatever but I don't know she just seems like she's always had a problem with Abby

so I I felt bad as Ellie killing her and then they almost go out of their way to not to make you the player not give a shit that Ellie killed this pregnant woman yeah um like that I just

The only reason you feel bad for that character is because she was pregnant. Yeah, yeah. And I think that is cheap and... Well, they do that a few times, though. With the cheapness. Yeah, for sure. Like the character of Jesse, for example. Yeah.

He only really exists so he can impregnate Dina. Yeah. Because his character doesn't really have any, you know, arc or journey because he just gets taken out in the like, yeah, we're brutal last of us. And this is something. where the gameplay actually really harmed the story for me was, I ended up really not liking Jesse and almost the same with Dina because whenever I was paired with them in gameplay moments, they were fucking annoying.

I was actually much more annoyed by the AI in this game than the first one. Yeah, definitely. Because they kept messing up my stealth. They kept standing in places I wanted to be. Yeah, exactly. It really pissed me off. So then I was just like, Jesse, fuck off. and then he suddenly gets shot in the head

and I was like, okay. Well, I was more annoyed about Jesse because he was one of the newer characters I was actually quite enjoying and I wanted to see a bit more of. Yeah, like I was cool with him as a character, but he's one of the characters you probably spend the most time with as Ellie.

Do you? In gameplay. I suppose, yeah. In stealth bits. Yeah. Because I played the whole game on hard, so I was really quite anal about the way I played the game.

trying to be stealthy and reserve all my resources and time and time again he fucking pissed me off and Dina for some reason when I was with Dina maybe because you mostly do like zombie stuff with Dina it wasn't really an issue but that one fucking dude it's like they did it on purpose that's what it felt like because when you're with Lev

as Abbey no problems really yeah I feel like I clashed with each time that was an AI. I never did with love. And that character is fine in my books. But Jesse, man.

Like, they need to do some fucking work on their AI. Yeah, a naughty dog. I don't remember. It was big an issue in the first game. And it was an issue they fixed in Uncharted Four. Because, like, if you take cover at a place,

you sort of take cover, like, on them or next to them. Mm-hmm. that's right but they just fucked it with this and it really pissed me off sorry for that no no it's fine

um how do you feel about dina um I quite like dina she was an interesting character yeah her purpose was more to be Ellie's kind of end goal

she saw her life with her and wanted to stay with her so at the end when she kind of loses her it has more weight behind it And it's definitely a unique relationship that I haven't seen in, like, a game before. No, definitely not. And I think the two characters and actors had a lot of chemistry. I have no problems with any of the performances, to be honest.

There is some dialogue I don't like. Yeah. I don't have any, like, specific examples, because there's just so much to talk about with this game. I wasn't taking notes while playing. There are definitely moments more early on. than anything but um really had me rolling my eyes yeah there's some real

corny shit in there yeah but I feel like it unless you're like a true master at writing relationships it's just yeah they're still learning I guess as writers and all that shit I just think having that whole love triangle stuff at the start

it that that affects the pacing to me because whereas Ellie I feel her character in that in those early moments should really be determined and all she is really thinking about is revenge. Because like the wound is still fresh, but then you've got that scene at the end of the first day I'm pretty sure where she's like jealous. It just feels weird. Like how how much is this character determined? And you have all of the the guitar stuff which you mentioned. Yeah.

Which I suppose is supposed to be like Joel kind of living on through Ellie. Yeah, it's like their main connection. Yeah, which is what makes her fingers being bitten off at the end. Yeah. This, like, final middle finger to her revenge and highlighting why it was a bad thing to do. Yeah, because Dina wasn't in it quite as much as I was expecting, to be honest. No. They kind of get her out of the picture fairly quickly.

Yeah, she falls pregnant. Well, she's pregnant basically the whole game. She is pregnant the whole game. And because of that, she's just put on the back seat. Yeah. I didn't really have any issues with her. I thought she was fine. Yeah.

She fulfilled her story role fairly well for what she needed to. Yeah, I was never, like, annoyed when she showed up in a scene or anything, by any means. I was, I was kind of torn on, at first, I wasn't really connecting with it that much. I guess I was expecting a bit more instant conflict with them that wasn't, like, a love triangle or something quite like that. Yeah, I feel like they could have done something more interesting. There's definitely, there's a certain intensity about the first game where your mission feels really important. Yeah. Which just isn't in the second game as much because it is much more personal, whereas, you know, they go the more typical, we have a cure for the virus type shit in the first game, which just is not really a concern in the second one.

They kind of put their foot down, like, there ain't much hope for that kind of shit, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. You kind of screwed the pooch, though, on that. what did you think of um Tommy Joel's brother I quite like what they did with Tommy because he was he was honestly one of the things

that was keeping me going because he was like a connection to the first game someone I already had a bit of investment there's a really good scene in the first game between Tommy and Joel where Tommy sort of reveals to the player

that Joel kept Tommy and well both of them alive basically by just doing the most horrendous shit you don't know what but Joel says I kept us alive and Tommy literally says wasn't worth it

like it was that fucked up but that's what makes Joel such an interesting character is someone who is just so lost and just has he's basically just like ape brain like nothing matters apart from staying alive as long as I've got food and shelter.

The only things that matter are the things that matter to me. Yeah. Yeah, he was kind of sucked into the horrendousness of the universe that he was found. I think that's why he's such a good, like, crucible as a protagonist. Yeah. But also what is extremely crucial about Joel and the reason so many people were connected to him is that you don't see the horrendous shit he did. Because if the game, if the first six hours of The Last of Us were you playing as Joel and Tommy and you were like stopping cars and slaughtering everyone in it and looting them and everything. And eating them.

Then it would be kind of the same issue this game has where then if in the latter part of the game you tried to make him come across as more empathetic, just in like a storytelling way. When you just go from one hyper extreme to the other, it's a risky maneuver and it doesn't always pay off. Yeah. For sure. but um going back to Tommy um I wish he had connected with Ellie more in this game

maybe even if the relationship was mostly like the one they focused on was those two that could have been really interesting yeah I yeah I because I mean that's a relationship you you never see is like an an uncle and a niece or nephew yeah true maybe I'm

and they already have that link being Joel and the same goal that binds them. For sure. Whereas Dina doesn't, you don't know. I would have been fine with with Dina being the person that you go with at the start, then she's

pregnant. I didn't, I don't think Jesse needed to be in it. The only reason he was in it was to be killed. Well, no, it was to be the semen provider. Yeah, the semen provider. Yeah, the semen provider, but he needed to die so that Ellie could be

the partner that raises the child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, otherwise he'd have like some kind of right to the baby. Yeah. And you couldn't have the house. Yeah, exactly. So they were like, that's what I mean about clunky elements.

We need the seam and kill the guy, whatever. Yeah. Because he doesn't even get anything that like characterful behind him, you know. No, no. He doesn't have any like emotional beat particularly. He's just kind of like, he's just Ellie's friend. He's just a bit of a mate. Yeah.

That's it. So I think he, he's an example of a character that was just used. Used and abused. used and abused Whereas I think if you met Tommy At the point You meet Jesse Because I don't know about you

But Tommy was really fucking being Bigged up in this game As being just the most badass Which I might have read it wrong or something But I thought they made a point at first Where Ellie's the one who's really keen about revenge And Tommy's kind of shoots it down

I think partly That's because he doesn't want her to put herself in danger but they say something about him like his wife speaking through him and that Ellie's like yeah that's not what you really think is it

that's your wife speaking you want revenge yeah yeah but I think more than anything he wants he knows what like Joel sacrificed to keep Ellie alive he doesn't want Ellie to go and die for his sake but then by the end he's the one

convincing her to yeah finish the job yeah because of what happened to him so he sort of became a selfish character but yeah like I was saying he's really bigged up to be a badass you're seeing sort of what he's done to people as you're going through the world yeah um to get as much information as he can I think he was underutilized yeah I do as well because I kept thinking about some way the story could have been

this character you're following being Tommy this revenge-fueled maniac if it if it could have been Joel in some way I don't know yeah as much as I would have liked to see that um this is the problem though whenever you make a suggestion that clearly is not as well thought through as the the plot they've spent five plus years laying out like it's really hard to spin it without restructuring the entire I think. We wanted to see the, what happens as a result of Joel's choice between Ellie and Joel and what we got in the end was Joel dies because of that choice. And then you play as Ellie dealing with that choice. I think if Joel had survived, the whole story would have been just completely different. Yeah. And I feel like you still could have told a satisfying revenge story.

with the chess pieces that were in play already. Because what starts to get really muddy for me is when you get to Abbey and in order for them to get you to empathise with her, they've got to do these like really cheap little writing tricks like we mentioned day one for her, where they have to really quickly establish this doctor guy as the fucking nice, chill, nice, awesome father, the best one you ever see. he saves zebras he collects coins he's just the that that scene was the most iroll i've ever experienced yeah that's come around the corner and there's a fucking zebra stuck in like i know they've established that there's the the zoo animals and stuff but to have that exact

character moments before he's going to save the world doing a horrible choice that he's got to do for the greater good he saves a fucking zebra the zebra that is just given birth continuing with the pregnancy super clumsy it's like give like give the player some credit you know they don't need to be drip fed this fucking

like well it's clearly the writers being very aware that they've got a lot of work to do to make you invested in that side of the story yeah which to me just reads like well come on guys the thing is you know from the first last of us that Joel and Ellie like Joel wasn't the greatest like father figure to Ellie in any respect but she they still had like a connection I don't think they needed to go to the lengths they did with that zebra scene and that's as a scene I would but then without it people would be complaining

that you just have nothing with that guy you needed something You needed to humanize him in some way, but it is so rushed. They had to get through it so he could die, and then it'd be sad for Abbey. Yeah, it's just, again, like you said, clumsy. So how about this idea of this game's story being part three? And part two was establishing Abbey in some sense, keeping it more of a mystery, exploring that throughline, that thread with Joel and Ellie a bit more. I mean the possibilities are endless

I mean there aren't that many restrictions on on the universe aside from just the tiredness of the zombie shit because I was feeling that a bit during this game you know like just the warring factions in the zombie apocalypse world like fucking hell dude we've seen this shit a lot of times

yeah it is so I don't know how much of that plays into it because the last of us won was a surprise this one had expectations yeah and the last of us one sort of came out when I feel like the Walking Dead was still quite popular and talked about

and then this one has come out and nobody gives a shit about that sort of thing anymore they've all moved on to battle royals like maybe if you had Ellie, Dina and Jesse fucking skydiving in yeah jumping out the battle bus yeah

maybe that would have worked better but it's not for me to say. So let's talk about Abby then. We've already started. Yeah. We've already fucking started. Let's talk about Abby.

Abbe. Abba. So, first off, she's not trans, which I was led to believe from all of the leaks and everything. Which I guess for some people is bad, if that was true.

I don't know why that really matters that much. No, I really... Because that was what was weird was that they were like... A certain subsection. of people were upset that there was a trans character. Yeah, a lot of people are just upset that she is strong. Yeah, and I've got to admit, I was kind of confused at first with the Abbey's, like, insane arms.

Yeah. But they kind of explain it with this, like, gym facility that they have at the wolf base. Yeah, I'm more intrigued as to how they have, like, an army, it seems to be just the religious group. They've got an army of just, like, superhuman. these fucking giant people that can be shot in their head multiple times and survive. Yeah. Like, where the fuck do they come from? Yeah.

Who gives a shit about Ellie being, not Ellie, sorry, Abby being ripped? But one detail with the Abby thing that I really did like was at the end of the game, she's kind of captured in that evil group for a few months. So when you, in that final conflict with her and Ellie, her arms have gone down. Her whole box, she's like tiny. Yeah. Yeah. that scene so the muscle the muscle mass is obviously clearly still like she knows how to fight but

yeah it makes um ellie's victory over her feel all the more just disgusting as well yeah it's like pathetic at that point because she's been like a slave for months it's like how much yeah they do establish that ellie's been like stabbed so she's obviously not um a hundred percent either but yeah it's i i agree that's a really good detail um abbey obviously comes across Leve and What's the... That's kind of the meat of the Abbey's story is the conflict between the wolves

and the, what they call it, the seraphites? Yeah, or scars. Scars, yeah. So, um, Ellie meets Lev, a trans boy, which you discover throughout. So, yeah, so Abby isn't trans,

but there is a trans character. Yeah, and I actually read an article about how Leve is a poorly written trans character. character right for what was their reasoning um apparently because um um lev's purpose in the story is for straight people like straight cisgendered people

to sort of like have it's to make them feel good about themselves like virtue signaling I guess I don't know about that I feel like it was much more subtle it felt more to me kind of like Bill's story from the first game yeah

yeah it was it was slightly more heavy-handed because Lev just had a bigger part in the story than yeah yeah yeah Bill which like absolutely fine but to me it made sense that that character was kind of ostracized

for being trans given the context of them being in this crazy like religious cult yeah an aspect I really liked about it as well was that in that cult they had this really defined thing of the men all had shaved heads

the women grew their hair long yeah so that having that defined thing really made it hard for Lev to like yeah I feel like I'm one of them though so I'm gonna shave my head yeah I didn't have a problem with that but I

I guess for me where the the the drive of the kind of narrative was was ground to a halt in that section for me was because they do explore this kind of seraphite scar angle with Nev's sister

getting smacked with the hammer on the arm and anything. A scene that I've really fucking was so like over the top violent. With her how red her arm got and stuff it would seem like really well researched and stuff like actual compartment syndrome where it's got to be cut off man it's all very

shocking yeah but that kind of shit is one of the reasons i fell in love with the first game like more just the unflinching violence yeah i don't remember anything like that in the first game though um to that degree and i don't know if it's just because like graphics and everything is so much more detailed now um i'm sure i could think of something because the last of us one to me and this is what I was trying to explain I guess earlier when I just think they

they feel very different The Last of Us One was like this really kind of brisk segmented story with the framing of the seasons and each season kind of had its own mini story within it Yeah yeah

With each where you had The Last of Us One's story is hands down so much more solid and it's much tighter yeah and it feels more subtle like the way you meet those brothers and they're sort of like a reflection of

Joel and Ellie but it's not too heavy handed to the point where it is in The Last of Us 2 when Abby and Ellie are mirror image characters they are practically the same yeah

because like each set the bill's segment it's like a lot of fun the winter section is like such an awesome moment from the first game such a surprise that feels really earned and like the payoff of the growth of Ellie throughout the game and I was finding like because there is so much gameplay so much combat in the last was part two I felt I was lacking that connection with like a character or a group of characters whenever someone showed up I was like well ah finally we're going to get some kind of like dynamic or explore interaction you know instead of just you know hours of brutality yeah i understand

that but again that the friendly ai thing made me dread every time that is a shame i came across another character that is a huge shame because that to me was like what the the the kind of banter and the you really saw this really clear growth in the first game yeah ellie is like this really introverted doesn't like Joel at all at the beginning and her body language changes across the game and she's really open and different by the end whereas the changes are I guess are more subtle and a lot of characters don't get a chance to go through changes yeah jesse's just offed Joel is oft Tommy goes through a pretty extreme change yeah but he's barely even looked at in the story like I really think he should have been

more of a major role I guess it's all about Ellie and Abbey Yeah That's what they wanted What did you think of Abbey's section Where there's kind of like the war going on With the wolves versus the

The scars Where the wolves invade the island Purely because of gameplay I thought it was so cool The presentation of it was like super exciting Yeah and you go on the horse for a bit I'm glad they had you go on a horse again so it wasn't just like a throwaway

yeah throwaway section and this time you can like shoot one on the horse everything just fucking ramps up to 11 it it's I would understand why stuff like that would piss people off about this game nobody's complaining about that stuff though but

like there's not really any of that in the first game might be set piece moments yeah the most extreme thing I can remember happening is you get like tangled up by your foot as Joel and you're upside down there you're forgetting a few there was the whole sequence with the like tank well not the tank you know the armored vehicle but i mean that's you just sprinting you know away yeah that's what a lot of the sequences are in in this game yeah but i mean it's

not like a village on fire and there's two the scope is yeah much smaller yeah and that that was also something I liked about the Last of Us won with this I wouldn't from an outside perspective agree with the decision to have

like a war going on but they make it feel suitably small scale like it's just happening on this one tiny island I really liked the approach how Abby was kind of a lone wolf she wasn't a foot soldier so the she was kind of tangentially connected to the war that was going on so she you saw the

the like charge from a distance you saw the conflict kind of from a distance and you're going through you just happen to be going through it as it's going on yeah something i don't fully understand there is after the first conflict with the wolves is how suddenly every wolf knows that abbey is a villain well yeah that's another aspect of the clumsiness i mean Like, there had to be that turn where she started killing wolves. Yeah. At that moment where it's kind of going back to that graeness theme, where who really is the good guy here, they're both as flawed as each other.

They both have their own beliefs and certain parts make sense. I feel like they could have just put in a throwaway line there about them that the wolves would have shot at Lev on site. Yeah, they're definitely... She needed things they could have cleared up with that. yeah but yeah one thing that really robbed a lot of that the kind of motivational suspense was like that most of this is it the second day is you just trying to get to like a hospital facility to to get medical equipment yeah for Lev's sister for Lev's sister who's like a brand new character who barely gets much time or development and they're already expecting you to be invested in Abbey or care about Abbey and her journey and then on top of that the the whole hook of that segment is you just going to a hospital to get medical equipment for a character you

don't really give a shit about yeah and it's like it's it's I was imagining like in the first game the whole the whole section where Joel falls on that spike yeah and there's like such a like sense of urgency when you're playing his early like you really want to like protect him and get back to him because they've spent so much time building him up and getting you invested in him and all there are no none of the new characters

that they establish I really can't say I'd give a shit if they were offed particularly yeah I think like Jesse would have been

Lev because that is the character you spend the most time with and like you learn little things about him like he likes sharks scared of water just like all yeah

I get yeah it just I wasn't connecting with the new characters as much I liked all the set pieces and I really liked you know the old like ground zero

kind of hospital thing where it's like all the really old that was extremely cool because I really wasn't expecting them to do any kind of world buildingy stuff so when I was getting that I was like oh shit

like this is like what I'm kind of into like what actually am I going to see how the old fungus is going to look and all this yeah I like that idea Yeah But again

Like I just feel like I would have been way more invested If I was Ellie or you know A character I wanted to be playing as Yeah I do appreciate the whole Story with Lev Being that Abby knows that

She's not a very good person And it's like the the game knows that you don't like her so she want they want to show her doing a good thing to compensate and the character herself feels like she needs to compensate so when ordinarily she'd

hate these two scars that she came across and not give a shit about whether they lived or died which she I'm pretty sure she says at one point like I might just leave you because you're fucking nothing to me yeah and then she comes to this conclusion that she needs to help these two i think so do you think for me it it worked just about enough like it just scraped by for me to be okay with with abby you know and not just hate her guts for the entirety of it yeah for me it wasn't uh god i can't

stand this character abbey for me it was just um the emotional investment's gone Yeah, I'm, I actually remove from the game that Abbey's storyline is really cool to me. This whole Neve thing and these factions, the whistlers and the wolves and all that. I like all of that. As it's so in a standalone game, I'd probably have really enjoyed it, like a spin-off in the Last of Us universe type thing. But it's part two, you know. And the game only works with that second half because the whole sections where you're playing is L.A. and you're like tracking their whole set pieces

where you're like chasing down people you later kind of get context as to who they are like the Vita woman and you know that all parts of the crew I found a bunch of that was kind of pointless yeah it didn't have any emotional resonance like no there's a really good part from Ellie's perspective when you're smacking this

this woman with a metal pole and it clearly has an effect on it even though when I was playing I smacked so many people around the face with a fucking metal pole that she should be pretty used to it by now. Like, I was so apathetic towards every character at a certain point

where I was like, well, you're all just monsters, you know? So you choosing to stop being a monster at this point, well, you're so, it's like the rules are in such a different universe to what we can even understand, you know, like,

assigning any morality at this point, it seems almost pointless. But I mean, the pointless aspect to me was that I think her name is Nora. Nora freeze. The girl you smack around the face, she's in like one scene when you're Abby.

So like she helps Abby out and it's like, well... It's just such an ambitious idea that they are kind of forced to skip over and just get to story beats so the whole thing as a whole can work but taken individually it's incredibly flawed like some of the days I think are like really fun really solid

I think the peak of the whole game is from memory day two as um as Ellie that's when I was playing the game it reached like midnight and I was just I can't stop this shit is fucking grabbing me remind me what happens on day two I believe that is when you go to the hospital

as Ellie right and you do all that shit yeah i think i can't remember but i remember thinking in my head once i finish day two that's the best part of the game so far i'll note down when but then day two is also quite good as abby yeah i think day two of both stories might be the best

but also day three is abbey is really good but the only thing that day three as ellie isn't great because of the way it ends it ends and then you go back to day one and that is so unsatisfying yeah the jump to the different character um because when they do that in the first game is kind of a genuine cool surprise and at the same time it leaves you asking so many questions like is joel alive yeah and they you kind of have slightly different mechanics um the upgrade tree seemingly is reset and everything.

Yeah, yeah. But then, you know, once you find out Joel's alive and you eventually go back to playing as him. Whereas they've got to balance this thing where you've got two different characters with two different upgrade trees. And the way they balance it

is just kind of strange. There's a weird feeling to feel like you're starting a game again halfway through. Yeah, oh, yeah. Here you go, find the papers and unlock all the new upgrade trees again and start collecting materials again. Yeah, that's something that's always annoyed me

because, like, surely you can assume like Abby looks like she knows what the fuck she's doing but all she has is like a pistol a long gun

like a rifle and she hasn't got any upgrades like surely you could have some algorithm that looks at what upgrades you got as Ellie and give you some as Abby so it feels like you're not starting anew

yeah just give her something thing. Because that's part of the fun of playing a game that has upgrades is that you feel like you're building a character. Yeah. Taking that away. Yeah, it's inherently just kind of annoying. Yeah, and it takes away that feeling of like a building kind of progress. Yeah. It just resets back to the beginning. I don't know what else they could have really done about that, to be honest. No, I don't know. So what's your, what's your favorite story? moment then. Yeah, just what pops into your head when I say what's your favorite moment? Um, after Ellie's lost their fingers, she plays the guitar and then the cutscene that follows.

Yeah. That was the only point in the game where it got a kind of earned emotional response at me. Yeah, but I did have other emotional responses. I really liked the spaceship scene. Yeah, that was the other one. Yeah, that one definitely had an emotional response. I didn't get really any emotional response from the when you play as Abbey but I didn't really I was fine with playing it I was I was fine with experiencing what they were doing with it I just wasn't connecting with them as characters I thought the character Owen Abby's ex-boyfriend was a bit too nice he seemed yeah they were doing that thing again yeah he seemed too good for this for that world they they're trying to

the grayness, but they take all the grayness out of Abby's story. Yeah, these, like, oversimplified characters, so... Carricature characters. I know they say that Owen, like, shot a dude. Perfectly, like, justified because he felt bad for a child. Mm-hmm. It's like... And then, yeah, he, like, runs off and you find out there was, like, an altercation.

Yeah, because he basically did exactly what Abby then does. Yeah. And there's the really graphic sex scene between him and Abby. Yeah. Which... I didn't really get it. Well, I thought, because I'd heard there were so many pregnancy beats.

I just assumed that it was going to be like another pregnancy. So when you're like... I'm glad they didn't do that. It felt more like a thing they were doing for the drama because you know he's got a baby on the way. with someone else you know he's got a baby on the way and yeah it's just another love triangle yeah and it makes it more dramatic yeah yeah it i thought they did a perfect job showing that those two characters have an affinity for one another without them having to

fuck yeah for for abby to have a a meltdown scene when he dies mm-hmm so uh let's round off um this thing with uh just answering some questions from uh twitter to kind of just round this off because i mean i don't know this it could be really messy like it i've it feels messy the conversation feels super messy in this video and it's super long i usually usually we're able to do this in 30 40 minutes yeah quite eloquently is this well is this an hour and a half or about two hours we've been recording for quite a while i don't know how it's going to going to be when I edit it down, so there's obviously a bunch of stuff I can take out, but damn, it's really hard to talk about this game. It is, yeah, but I feel like we've had a nice

flow, you know? Yeah, sort of naturally gone from them. Yeah, so let's end on some questions then. Let's start with this one from at internet Dave, who says, could it be considered a better game all round if it wasn't a sequel to the first game, which was regarded as excellent? No. The game doesn't work without the first game. You have to have the investment and Joel for any of it to have any weight to begin with. They do an all right job of establishing everything that happened in the first game. Well, they actually do that thing in the opening cutscene where they specifically show the scene where Joel kills the doctor.

Yeah, yeah, to make sure you remember it and know this about thing. Which I don't know if I would have even twinged on that if I didn't know that was a part of the story that it was all linking back to the first game and that final event yeah it this far the leak thing really fucked it like I don't know I genuinely don't know what I think about this game without it I think um I'm sorry but I'm this is sort of going away from the question but it's a point I kind of want to make that when you kill that doctor in the first game it doesn't feel like it's they they make it seem as though with the secret

that you have to kill him in the first game to set up this sequel yeah but in the first game it it just felt organic like you killed this guy because he was in your way at first it pissed me off because I was like this is a video game I should have the choice whether I kill this dude that's clearly no match for me the strong fucking protagonist but it's it's it felt more like a subtle comment in the first game whereas in the sequel it's like heavy heavy-handed it's recconning at its finest

the scene is not structured in a way that makes it it's like obvious that this character is going to be important or there's no build-up or establishment of it exactly if they'd have established that he has a daughter

named Abbey then her existence in the story would sit way better with me even it's awkward no matter what this is what I really it's a thing we see time and time again where when a story is like the first entry in something captures lightning in a bottle in a way and it wasn't planned to have sequels this universe wasn't fleshed out in a certain way so when they do come to making sequels because everything wasn't planned out you can fall into these traps of going back and retconning all this shit and changing everything up fucking up people are really upset about the the Joel decision seems to be condemning Joel

in the first game when the whole first game seemed to be about kind of justifying that decision at the end yeah that was what made that game interesting to me

was this whole like morally grey area that they totally make you understand why someone in his position would do the thing he does yeah

um in my opinion but I don't think them I don't think the sequel saying that Joel did bad things

and did a bad thing doing what he did um takes away from that I don't think I don't think it does so I understand Ellie being upset with it but I guess what made it work for me was that when Joel is talking about it he specifically says

I would do it all again yeah I would do everything exact same way that cut scene at the end of the game honestly improves the whole story No, because before that cutscene, you know, it was like, kind of like, whatever, this ending bit's a bit more, like, interesting to me. But that cutscene really did bring it much more full circle with that stuff, because you get the payoff.

And I, because I thought in that moment they were going to, like, character assassinate him and be like, I'm so sorry, I wish I didn't do it and do all this kind of shit. Yeah. But he doesn't, he stands by. He doubles down. Yeah, which is, like, a Joel thing to do. And it, like, makes, that, that really made. sense to me. Yeah, and he

doesn't need to like explain everything to her. He just tells her the truth and it's like Power Couch asks this What are your expectations before

going in and your thoughts when a sequel in general was announced? I was definitely cool with a sequel. I fucking loved the first game. I played it so much. Really? I was in the camp where I was happy with The Last of Us just being a standalone.

I sort of hoped that it was going to be just a standalone thing. But when the sequel was announced I knew at least I was going to get a game I would like to play. I was confident it was going to

be really good. Yeah. Then the leaks happened and just the way everyone was talking about it and the way it was spun. It just seemed much more negative and people already writing it off and cancelling their pre-orders and the pathetic review bombing stuff,

like, I think it's perfectly reasonable to not like the story of the game. I think that's completely legitimate. Yeah. Because you don't have to like what they gave you. But in that same vein, it's totally legitimate to like it. Oh, yeah, of course.

Don't shit on people. It's not as cut and dry as it's been made out to be. No, definitely, definitely not. Because, like, if you're reasoning for a dislike, Likeing the game is because maybe you bought it, you got to the Joel scene, then you stopped playing. I don't think that's as legitimate as someone like me who got to that scene was upset by it, went through to the end. And when you're finished with that 25 hours, you are kind of just like, yeah, I didn't like this bit, really didn't like this bit, really enjoyed this section. It is more complicated as a whole, because it is such a long 25, it is such a long experience.

there is so much of it that is good there is so much to enjoy about it the bad aspects I don't know they don't bring it down that much for me I feel like I'm if I had to assign a number out of ten I feel like I'm

about a seven at the moment which is like it's definitely above average for me but there are a lot of things that bug me about it yeah I'd be a strong eight yeah because I mean there are points of this game

where I teetered on loving this game yeah mostly just because of like how fun I thought the game actually yeah it I found it quite addictive to play after a while I was really getting into like the feel of it and the way the stealth worked and the upgrades and the just the loop I thought was found really fun because a lot of people were giving naughty dog shit for this this article that was being spread around where I think Neil Druckman was quoted as saying we don't use the word fun around the office or whatever

but like it's fun it's really fun the game is awesome to play and I don't know how into this sort of thing you are but the notes and stuff yeah I when I was early I read most of them but after a while I just there was a point in the middle where I really wasn't sure

how I was feeling about the game and I even stopped playing it for a bit right so I didn't bother yeah I found some notes you'd like open them and it'll be just like such a huge block a text you'd be yeah I read a lot of them yeah I read most of them and honestly I don't it's very rare that I would do that in a game but the the way they set up the environment that that

note is left in and how the environmental storytelling is really cool yeah it's incredible and that that is a hook for me for sure sorry what was the actual question expectations before going in your thoughts when a sequel in general was announced after the leaks and stuff I did spoil it for myself and I didn't expect to like this game because like you said everyone was saying it was shit and maybe that's a reason I like it as much as I do because I went in expectations make a huge difference yeah I went in probably with lower expectations than you and came out liking it way more than you so I'm I really want to just leave it for a few months yeah and then maybe when the PS5 comes out or something

play it on there play it with the yeah I definitely if I am able to pick up a PS5 if it's not fucking a thousand pounds then yeah maybe I will at pluffy FX us the order of the story for me I think that's the main issue we kind of touched on that I mean yeah we were talking before we started recording what can you really do? Yeah, I've been... Yeah, ever since I've finished it, I've been just playing around in my head

trying to think... Yeah. With the pieces that are already in play, what would be a better way to present it that would be not satisfying? And I really think structurally there's not much you can do with what they've done here.

Yeah, no joke. It has kept me up at night, trying to think. Like, how can you start changing things and you're like, well, that kind of fucks the whole story. Yeah. The theme and everything.

I've really. think had it not been spoiled, this would have been a game that would blow people, some people away, just absolutely, maybe that's the reason it's been so highly reviewed by critics because they maybe intentionally avoided spoilers and got this really unique experience. But at the same time, like, I've listened to a few of these, like, game journalist reviews and stuff, and they're just, like, vapid. You can't take away anything of substance. because they are saying things like this is changing storytelling and gaming

this is revolutionizing shit and it's like no like really describe what you're fucking talking about what what that means is the graphics really good or like yeah the cutscenes are like the quality of a movie yeah or like a really good TV show

no I really appreciate the whereas like Uncharted 4 is just the most conventionally told story you could imagine they actually did try and do something that's the thing like I'll I'll always respect an ambitious story yeah fumbles and more than something that doesn't even fucking try yeah definitely it it doesn't stumble because it's poorly thought through it it stumbles because it was really trying something it was being

ambitious yeah at Harris O then a bunch of numbers says how donkey said it was good, causing lots of people to completely change their opinions regardless of whether they'd actually played the game. I guess people were expecting Dunkie to shit all over it. Yeah, because he shot all over the first game when it first came out. Yeah. He came around on that, didn't he eventually? Yeah, he did.

He played it on the PS4. It is much better on PS4. Yeah. Much better. I hadn't actually played it on PS4, but I believe you. I mean, the same thing happened when people were saying it was shit before it was people are very easily swayed by

someone they respect I'm showing me I just want to peek into the dimension where it didn't leak and just see how people reacting I don't know I genuinely like I don't know I don't know either and I would like to watch this exact video in the reality where it wasn't leaked to see what we think yeah because it's possible that like I really do not know

what my reaction would have been I imagine pretty similar because I stand by the fact that like if a good movie is good then whether you have it spoiled or not it's still good like I had Fight Club ruined for me yeah but I feel like everyone has it was ruined for me or like the sixth sense as well

yeah I haven't even seen that movie so but yeah I think it the same applies to games it does it is less excited and it does take an aspect away from it but yeah there were more surprises than I was expecting yeah the way the leaks kind of reduced it into its like wiki form effectively yeah yeah doesn't really do it complete justice it's just a lot messier than the first game I think

we both agree on that yeah for sure but I do think it's yeah if if anything is more um it is is the structure of it it's where it both falters and it's kind of impressive where I haven't played a game where you apart from I guess like Halo 2 which where you're like playing both sides of a of a conflict and you're kind of playing with that idea I do really like that nugget and you can see that that was clearly where they were like creatively motivated to explore the story through but yeah yeah it is

it is quite messy it's no like godfather 2 or something like that another movie I haven't seen yeah I mean people always adjust their opinions depending on what people are saying you know it's like the

the bigger your influence like obviously more people yeah where did it who who decided that because this is what happened when I saw Joel died I'm sorry to go back to this but this is such a point of contention for people

when Joel died I kept asking myself why does this bother me what is it about him dying like this that is bothering me I want to like nail down what it is because as we're basically everyone is in agreement with no one cares that he dies like everyone knew that was because it's the most

fucking obvious story beat a lot of people do care that he dies like they no no it's not that he dies it's that he dies is that he dies in the way that he dies right at the beginning of the game. Yeah. The thing is, the Last of Us won in my head,

maybe this is just a memory thing, but like, that is so fitting for the world they've set up for Joel. It's fitting, but at the same time, like, when The Last of Us ended, I wanted more. When The Last of Us 2 ended, there's not much, like, I really give a shit about seeing anymore. No, and I think that is sort of a statement. It's like the last one.

Last of us part two. So you don't think there's going to be a part three? I think, I mean, I probably said this exact thing about the first game at the time, but I think if they do do more, because I mean Sony's going to want more, this is the best selling, Sony Exclusive all time. If they do more, it will be new characters, or maybe even Abby and Love. I don't know, man, because... Probably not after the reaction to this game

and there's no like story beat left with those two characters so it wouldn't make sense but I would imagine new characters or but at that point it makes me sick to say but maybe a prequel What like a prequel set when

Yeah they give you they give the fans what they want You play as Joel And you play his tummy Slaughtering children women who gives a shit at kim jubi says talk about the comparisons that have been made

of The Last of Us 2 and movies if that mindset actually shows in the final product i.e. the game forgetting that it's a game that needs to be interactive for its message to come through super confusingly written tweet but I think what you're saying is kind of what we

talked about. Yeah I think it's worth asking the question would it be better a but no it's like a series or something um sure it's like a valid comparison yeah because i noted down some revenge stories that we like be it old boy john wick incredibles kung fu panda two kung fu panda two kung fu panda two jango unchained godfather part two breaking bad they all have this kind of similar theme to it about you know revenge They're not interactive in any way No

They're just a story that's told the way they're told And as long as both the gameplay and the story Support each other enough That's absolutely fine by you I guess it's going to be down to you whether you're going on a murderous rampage And then deciding not to follow through at the end Yeah and it's like the The dissonance of

There's a part where Ellie gets stabbed by a tree but right after that you can be shot 30 times and as long as you've put some tape around your arm you're absolutely fine At Soit Sparky says Thoughts of specific controversial elements The ending various twists etc Talks about Joel enough

The ending I'm not quite sure I understand why the ending specifically is as hated as it is Because she doesn't kill Abby So is that what? what would make the story good? No. Well, the way these people see it is...

She's killed all these people, including the other characters that you're introduced to, but then when it comes to actually... It's like, I think they think it's a bit late for her now to stop. So basically what I was saying about it, just seeing kind of hollow and strange. This is the thing, though,

because you couldn't have a season of a show where every episode the main character every episode is them like going through a place just slaughtering yeah and then in the last episode they're like well

you know what this is bad and then go home yeah I do understand why that is quite weird yeah but at the same time it's this thing of like if if a theme is explored in a way that you find

satisfying yeah that's hard to like with but at the same time it's this whole thing people have with the like with the last Jedi quite frankly where they feel like the themes are above logical kind of character choices and you know that kind of thing where it's at a top level it's all about like thematic through line instead of yeah the characters and them staying and seeing and exploring what you'd expect them to do but like I think because of the story that

or the like the world that the story is based in you can really forgive like killing someone in that world is totally different to killing someone right now like there's way less weight to killing someone

in that world it just happens all the time yeah I don't think there's almost too much emphasis being put on the act of killing Abbey being important that the important point is her deciding that this has to end now and yeah the the the the point is that she

forgives Joel again right she's breaking the cycle you know the cycle that you can project like anything in your life too ways it's marking a point where you're sick of the torment and you want it to end so you're doing something proactive by going against what you have been like the mindset you've been strapped in you're breaking it and I understand that it's like a powerful thing for a character to go through and it gives the journey a bit more weight in like the kind of dramatic sense but it does bother me man the the countless murdering I think it is just the brutality and violence of it I can't empathize with a world that bleak I think you just have to to try and

imagine yourself in a world that bleak I think the like sure Ellie kills a lot of people but if she stayed at home she might have ended up having to kill a lot of people if she'd she might have just fucking gone for a walk and ended up having to kill fucking six people that's what I mean but if you're trying to tell

an empathetic story in a universe that's so fucking nihilistic yeah it is it is clumsy I think that's why doing a sequel they're this really bloody hard to come up with something that would work in

that universe and yeah that first game really felt like everything was designed around this one story the universe that it's set in isn't that flexible yeah i'm still cool that they let's end on this one then from at neltie 88 who says thoughts on the first game for comparison we've mentioned it a couple times but I really like the story of the first game. Yeah, I think it's a nice, I think it's the perfect length, too, which this game isn't. I think it's too long.

But, yeah, I thought it was the perfect length. I thought it was paced really well. Music was really good, just the beats it. Music is something we haven't really talked about, but music in the first game was so much better than the second one. I don't know what happened with the music in this game. It's like they just decided to not use it. And there's a few moments where they say,

sort of call back to stuff in the first game and it really is quite powerful I was expecting some new compositions though or something some new some new moments because there are so many in the first game that like really punch and you remember them like that opening it just seemed a lot more present

I don't know if they just couldn't get the guy to work in the same capacity or what it was I don't know if it was just a thing of um the first game is on undoubtedly more hopeful so the only real

music you get in this one is just like like your heart beating just like a throbbing sort of sound yeah well um Druckman said

the first game's about love the second game's about hate about hate yeah which again is something that does kind of come through because it is a pretty hateful game yeah but him saying that is so reductive of the same story stories yeah it's not just about hate it's about the the grayness of something like that in a universe where there are basically no rules yeah where do you where when is enough enough you know yeah in the depravity when do you draw the line and as of recording this

has a 94 meta score do you agree with that no so this game isn't as good as they say yeah but also if you read the the viewer user score from 104000 ratings

is a 4.9 also wrong so this game isn't as good as they say this game isn't as bad as they say This game... It's just as they say. Yeah, I guess. This game is as they say. Wait, no. No, because...

That doesn't work. Because then you can just choose either one of them, both extremes. Um, this game is... They say. This game is they say. Thanks for watching.