Jim Cornette Experience - Episode 594: History

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

This week on the Experience, a history intensive episode, as Jim goes through the Jack Pfefer files and uncovers the possible first ever US wrestling TV broadcast! Also, Jim talks about Buddy Rogers, Willie Gilzenberg, Pampero Firpo, Detroit, Pfefer's tax return, Sam Muchnick / NWA drama, and more! Plus Jim talks about WWE's deal with ESPN! Thanks to our episode sponsors: SHOPIFY:  Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/jce HELIX:  Go to helixsleep.com/jce for 20% Off Sitewide. Follow Jim and Brian on Twitter: @TheJimCornette @GreatBrianLast Join Jim Cornette's College Of Wrestling Knowledge on Patreon to access the archives & more! https://www.patreon.com/Cornette Subscribe to the Official Jim Cornette channel on YouTube! http://www.youtube.com/c/OfficialJimCornette Visit Jim's official site at www.JimCornette.com for merch, live dates, commentaries and more! You can listen to Brian on the 6:05 Superpodcast at 605pod.com or wherever you find your favorite podcasts!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Like the midnight and the rock and roll. He's in a fight for wrestling soul using a racket and some mind control. He's in Cormnett. The keys to the future. Help by Onet! The episode of the Jim Cornet experience, it's the boys just want to have fun edition. We're just going to throw out all of the negativity of modern times and we're going to talk about the fun stuff of pro wrestling history,

something you're not going to hear on any of the other podcasts. And joining me in all this and so much more. Hawaiian Brian, the podcasting line, the King of the Arcadian Vanguard podcast network, Mr. Co-host to you, he's going to have so much fun, you're going to have to wipe the smile off his face with a sandblaster. Be great, Brian Last, everybody.

Aloha, Jim. A pleasure to be here once again. Looking forward to today's show, we didn't have to watch anything or review anything. It's kind of just come as you are. B-O-B or B-Y-B-B-O-B. Bombs over Baghdad is what it is. No, it's...

Be right back. What are you... Well, we're going to have fun today. I think that's the point. Come as you are, as you were, as you wanted to be, or whatever the fuck that is. Wow, that's pretty good. I don't think most people would pin you as someone who would know any lyrics than Nirvana. They used that incessantly on ECW, and it played in all of the...

diners and northeastern establishments of that time period that I was forced to endure. And I've got that part in my, I don't know what he says when he starts screaming. He's over my head then. But otherwise, it was melodic up to that point. But you know what we're doing today, Brian? And I'll tell the people what we're doing because the people need to know what we're doing. I've made an executive decision that I've got so much stuff going on this week that I could not record at the normal time because of personal and familial and other business reasons

that we're doing this a couple days early so that I got time to get all that stuff done and everybody else gets a little break around here. Anybody got any problems with that? Stacey. Well, no, she'd have a problem if I didn't do this. So the point is we don't have any, unless somebody crashes, their car on the Merritt Parkway or something like that, then we would come back with some breaking update,

but we've recorded this before normal so that we're just, we're going to delve into the getting a way back machine and delve into some wrestling history and tell people some things, possibly we are breaking some news. Brian here on this program today and rewriting the history books of not only wrestling but television. vision. So if that's a good little tease for you. I had no idea when I showed up today that we were going to do all this. That's amazing. Well, see, you would have dressed better. If you knew

we were rewriting history today, you wouldn't have come as you are. I would have showered something. You would have, I've been meaning to talk to you about the bathing thing. Um, but we're going into my files. We're going into the Fever files. We're going into some research that I've done. We're talking about a variety of things. Fun things today on the program. as I said, but a programming note. We got an off topic. I just thought about this. I was going to bring it up.

And if you've seen the whole thing, don't tell me what happens or don't spoil it for me. But there's a series on one of the pissing channels of the streaming channel services. I don't know where it is. Stace puts it up on the television. But we've started watching it. And you know I have so much time.

to sit around and watch TV. I've got through the first three episodes in the last like week and a half, but I'm trying to apply myself. The Penguin, have you seen this? Have you heard about this? Oh, I thought you were going to talk about WWE Unreal.

No, I am not... No, I said, not related to wrestling. Exactly. I thought you were going to talk by WWE Unreal. Oh, and by the way, by the time that we come back with another program, folks out there that care about that type of thing,

we'll have seen the rest of the unreal and know what's going on there and let you know in case you just want the Reader's Digest version. But the penguin. I had not heard about it. No, who's in it? Well, I don't know, but apparently he doesn't look like himself. I will elaborate further. The penguin is obviously based on the Batman villain,

but this is like they have, I don't know, you know, again, I haven't read the comics, the comics, the, The funny papers, I ever read them since I was a collector back in the 70s. I know the penguin he's got the umbrella. It's Burgess Meredith. Everybody knows that. Whatever the fuck. But

they have updated this thing and apparently Stace showed me a picture of the guy. I can't remember his fucking name. I don't know any of these young, fancy Dan actors. But he's not like really a fat ugly looking fun. They've made him up, but he is the driver, or he started out in crime.

They do flashbacks and all this shit. I don't know. I'm nodding off by the end of it, just because I'm exhausted. But he started out as the driver for Sophia Falcone, who was the daughter of the Falcone crime family in Gotham City, and they stuck her in the fucking Arkham Asylum for 10 years on trumped up charges. and she came out a wacko and is trying to take over the crime, but he's double-crossing her and all this other shit's going on.

But he looks like they got him in the makeup and the outfit where he looks like the penguin. And his waddle is explained that he's got, you know, the brace on his leg. Like when I was a kid, I'm sure they've modified these things, but there were kids that had braces on their leg, and that's why he waddles around. And it's very dark and exciting and penguin-y. Oh, you know what?

You should say this. Yeah, it's Colin Farrell. Colin Farrell. I've heard that name somewhere. Must be wearing a ton of makeup. I got to check this out. This is on HBO, it says. Oh, well, there you go.

So we've been watching on, because we're, apparently it's, I don't know how many episodes they've done. Like I said, I've seen the first three. But you've got to see the penguin. I don't know when the umbrella with the poisonous gas comes in. I'm assuming that's in later episodes. What do you think of like when they go back and they revisit like these characters that we all know? It could be the penguin.

It could be any superhero or villain. And they give you the origin story and they either do it the same way. I don't know if this is the way Bob Kane envisioned it or not. I don't know if he ever envisioned anything. Who knows when it comes to the origin story. of the penguin. But what are your thoughts about revisiting somebody's characters

and showing them from a different perspective or anything? Well, this, I like this treatment, as they say in the business. I like, you know, the way that they're, they're making, because let's face it, you know, the 30-minute,

24 minutes with commercials or whatever, 66 Batman series, didn't have time to flesh out not only the origin stories of the penguin, but also make him possibly the most realistic character. character. So I like this is, it's cool to see the same character but done in a realistic

fashion and with, you know, something going on. So far, it's good. Now, you can also take somebody and completely fuck it up if it's no good and it's just preposterous or a little orphan Annie becomes a little orphaned dick, as I said here a couple weeks ago, or the Silver Surfer is a woman or whatever. Let's, let's try to take the original concept and just make it realer than the comics were able to, instead of changing the shit around after it's already over to where it's not the same thing. Last time I talked about that with you, got a lot of negative feedback from people like, they had a female silver surfer in the comics.

You didn't know. I said that. I literally said in the segment that I was talking to someone explaining how, oh, no, this is all part of the multiverse, don't worry about it. That wasn't the point. It's the Fantastic Four finally getting a movie done the right way, allegedly. I want to see the real silver

surfer. Yeah, and I want to see the invisible girl. Not the invisible woman. She was the invisible girl, God damn it. I'm just telling you. Go back and look if you can afford the copy, not you,

but the royal you. If you could afford to read about the Fantastic Four. If you can afford the original or get a good quality reprint. And there are plenty of those. And the Invisible Girl. What did you think of the X-Men, like the original X-Men when they first- You know what? That was cool because, again, I got the early X-Bit.

I think the first, I know I got the X-Bin one I got from Larry and Richard. The box of comics that I got from my cousins that led to my fascination. an obsessive comic collecting for those years. X-Men 1 was in there. And several of the early, like, I think one, maybe three, seven, was seven the vulture? Why am I? No, I'm not, I'm thinking wrong.

But nevertheless, I'm thinking of Spider-Man. What did you think of mutants? But that was the best part about it was Professor X, the bald-headed, you know, telepath in the wheelchair in his castle. and workshop and whatever the fuck. That was the cool shit. But they were reasonable mutants,

maybe except for, because I don't know about a guy that can transform himself into a block of ice at will, but like the beast and, you know, Cyclops had the fucking heat vision and all that stuff. So it was still on the side of,

you know, they're not trying to insult a seven and eight and nine-year-old intelligence. And were you done collecting when they reintroduced them the new X-Men, the uncanny X-Men, giant-sized X-Men number one? Yes, believe it or not. That's the one goddamn major collector's item of the 70s that I was out right about that same time because I started going to wrestling so often and I started taking pictures

and blah, blah, blah, and how much time was there in the day? Newman. All right. This has been a happy talk. well there you go you're the one asking about the egg are you what do you got a mutant thing going on some kind of mutant thing

I wouldn't admit it I want to play a game with you because remember we did this last week was it on my program or your program or one of the programs that we did letters to Feffer where I read a letter that was written to Jack

Feffer and see how long how far I get through it before you figure out who's writing a letter better. You remember that game, don't you? I do. That was a lot of fun. Well, let's do it again. Because I got a lot of stuff here. This was addressed to Jack Pfeffer at the Hotel Bostonian

in Boston, Massachusetts, March 17, 1953. I'm not going to tell you where it came from. What? 53 in Boston. No, I'm just, I'm figuring it out already. Well, I'm not, this is coming from somewhere else. That's where Feffer was. The fact that he was there, that says something. Okay.

Well, there you. Okay, now you're a goddamn sleuth with this. Okay, I see where this is going. Dear Mr. Feffer. Hey, that's the sound, folks. When he figures out who this is, you're going to hear his buzzer sound in. The Scott Cornish horn.

Yeah. I liked his hens also. It was a little. chickens he made for dinner. Dear Mr. Fever, I had Tommy Phelps to write you about my working for you, and since I have not heard from you, I thought it best to follow up with a letter from myself.

I've been working for Mr. Mack and Mr. Maurice Beck for some time now, keeping books for Mr. Mack in the daytime, and wrestling once or twice a week at night, and they tell me that I've improved a great deal. however Mr. Mac as well as Mr. Beck think that you can do wonders toward him this is typed and there was no correction back then so he's typing over some of these letters right

the thinks that you can do wonders toward improving my working ability in fact they both tell me that you can do more for me than any other promoter in the country and I would most certainly appreciate the opportunity of working for you and this is the thing um you will see that feffer people hated him like the plague and other people thought he was the greatest thing because of his record of success one way or the other that it ever happened in wrestling right anyway the letter continues i've worked out with nature boy several times and he tells me that i've got what it takes to make a good worker if given the chance

I am sending you a couple of pictures of myself in order that you can get an idea of what you might be able to do with me. I played college football for Southern Methodist University as well as one year of professional... All right. Give it to me.

Fritz von Herck? Actually, you are not correct. Jack Atkinson. You are correct. You are correct, sir. I will finish the letter. because listen to the sentence that I was in the middle of and tell me what you think that he was trying to say here.

I have played college football for Southern Methodist University as well as one year of professional football for the New York Yankees. Huh. That was that now he is there was a New York football team. I think he tried out for some professional team at some point. Did he just brain fart? Because he'd only been there a little while? Or whatever?

I'm, whatever. I'm Googling this now. I don't see any record of a New York Yankees football team. Did Fritz ever play baseball? Not that, certainly not for the Yankees. I can guarantee that, but not that I am aware of, no. Anyway, I'm six feet, four inches tall and weighed 255 pounds, and him 23 years old.

I have now had quite a few matches and am definitely determined to stay into wrestling profession. I appreciate hearing for you soon as you to have a chance to get, I'm very anxious to get started. He lived at 310 Hall Street, H-A-L-L in Dallas, Texas, in March 1953, Fritz von Err. So that's awesome, interesting. What was the date on that? March 17, 1953, which was not long. It's in the middle of the war. that was in the war and wasn't it

didn't they was the fire right before that or right after that or did they open the new Sportatorium right after that I'm thinking I think the fire was it was spring of 53 wasn't it so maybe yeah the arsonist Jack Adjson yeah he was trying to get out of there

yeah he was trying to get out of town Mr. Fever I was told once I lit this building on fire there's only one promoter who would work with me No, we're not Do not know Nobody print that we're accusing Fritz of arson of the sport of tour

But he burned He burned down the house later on literally But it's also interesting Because this is 10 years before the letter you read Last week from Bill Watts When he was breaking in Same thing I was told the right to do that you could help me

And again, you know It's a pattern And I've got some things to read to you You'll get a kick out of, but before that I'll give you something you won't get a kick out of. Do you see, because also you

you've won all of these letter contests, bastard. Do you remember, Brian, who the wrestling promoter was based in Detroit and he was associated with the Pfeffer and Haft the combination at the time,

but he was the promoter for Michigan and based in Detroit in the 1930s. Do you remember his name? Oh, I'm forgetting the name, though. Would it help if I said, if I reminded you, he was a cousin of a famous movie star? No, at this very second, it would not help me. Deep cut.

Yay, I got him. Adam Weissmuller. Oh, that's right, yeah. And Adam Weissmuller. I know the name, obviously, I know Johnny Weissmoor, but I've seen the name for the wrestling promenor. I just never realized they were related. They were cousins.

And apparently Johnny Weissmuller's grandson is named Adam. One would possibly imagine from this guy. And for the kids, you can Google him if you care, but briefly, Johnny Weissuehler was a four or five-time gold medalist in the 1924 and 1928 Olympics and swimming for the United States. And he ended up being cast as Tarzan in MGM's first big bun. budget Tarzan, Tarzan the ape man, 1932, which was such a hit. He played the part in the spinoffs for the next 16 years and was synonymous.

That was the most famous run of Tarzan movies. They used to have Tarzan Theater on Channel 11 here in Louisville every Saturday afternoon, I think at 2 o'clock. And they would alternate that with, oh, my God, who else was it? I can't remember now. Six months you'd get Tarzan and six months you'd get somebody else, whatever. But I can, okay, Brian, count these. Can I list from memory the Johnny Weiss Bueller Tarzan movies?

1932, Tarzan the ape man. 1934, Tarzan and his mate. 1936, Tarzan escapes. 1939, Tarzan finds a son. 1941 Tarzan's secret treasure 1942 Tarzan's New York adventure 1943

Tarzan triumphs I can't remember if there was I think 44 he was was a mystery of some kind and then Tarzan and the Amazon's Tarzan and the Leopard Woman Tarzan and the Huntress and Tarzan and the Mermaids in 1948. That's 12.

So in 16 years he did 12 Tarzan movies. His most famous fucking Tarzan in the history of movies. And but meanwhile, his cousin, as I said, had been the wrestling promoter in Detroit and I looked him up. He died of cancer at 37 years old in 1937. I found, because Fever was involved in sending the talent to Michigan along with Al Haft from Ohio,

he got a box office report. This was just random in one of these files. It's chaos, even if you kind of have an idea what you're looking for. But it's the gross for all the wrestling shows, apparently in the state of Michigan for like a five-day period in 1936. would you like to hear this?

Absolutely. Does it also say who was there? No. It's just a, it's a ledger book with date 16, Detroit, 16 Flint, 16 Windsor, 17, Hazel, that type of thing. And the net, it says, the net. And then the only town that has an expense and a profit is Detroit, because a wife's Mueller handled that directly, and the rest of it was local promoters, so it has a booking fee that the office got.

And I mean, every one of these promoters had different ways of writing this down, and there were, I'm not an accountant, but also there were questions of literacy and sometimes English being a first language when a lot of these guys were doing their records. So everybody did things differently, but we can. extrapolate some things. When was this in 1936? This was the week of March 16, 1936, and actually it covers the days of March 16, 17, 17, 18, 19, and 20. Those are the only days that are covered. Apparently those are the only days that ran shows, but there were 1, 2, 3, 45, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16 shows

during those five days out of this office. On the 16th, and Detroit was obviously even still then the end. Remember, this is in the Depression, right? So, God damn it, I had a note jotted down here somewhere, but in 1936, I believe you can figure that a dollar is equal to like $22 or $23, something like what it was today or what it is today. But Detroit at the time, Weissbler was running a building called the Arena Gardens, but the big events would go to the Olympia Stadium,

which was not a outdoor stadium as the name sounds, but the Olympia was the building that Bruiser ran opposite Sheik when he ran the Cobo, and they later became the Joe Lewis Arena that Crockett ran. It was around from the, initially from the 20s or early 30s. and the ticket prices at this time they were doing if they would do for it during this time period of 4,000 fans in Detroit, the gate would be like 30 something, $3,800 or $4,200.

So you can assume that the tickets were like 50, 75 cents at a dollar, something like that for a lot of these shows, right? But this is 1936. So on this particular week, Detroit, the net, and I don't know how they arrived at that figure, but the net was $1,99.97. And then out from it is expense $1,093 and profit, $206.92, but the office kicked back a booking fee to themselves of $65. How does that work?

How does that work for the listeners when you kick back a booking fee, but you're the booker? Well, that's the thing is the office gets to take a booking fee out. And in those days, each town had a local promoter that would have to pay the office a certain percentage of the gate in order for that booking office to supply them with the wrestling talent for their cart. if if i'm going to run lansing michigan i can't bring wrestlers from around the country and even back then or whenever for just to run lansing i can't afford to keep a crew so i go to a booking office that services the whole area which in this case would have been detroit and i got to pay them 10% usually is what it was but back in these days who knows and probably everybody had a different deal at some

And so then they'll book me the talent and I promote the show and I pay the building, I pay the advertising, I pay the boys, I pay the booking fee and I hope to God that I got something left over. But when the promoter also owns the booking office, he can write as an expense off of his own show booking fee and put it back in his goddamn company's account. and see again you know I don't this this might have been involved

in or might not because it's separate column in expense of the show but he's basically showing a profit of $206 and 92 cents which again today would be somewhere around $5,000 but the more interesting thing is

I'm not going to read all these amounts to you but I want to read you the towns and then the total, because all these other towns that they were booking talent out to were drawing between, you know, Owasso, I'm not even sure where Owasso is.

Is there in Owasso, Michigan? Because its net was $181. Now, that would be like doing a $4,000 spot show, you know, today, but it's still, tickets not even a dollar across the board, they're drawing several hundred people, they're from $200 to $600 in these other towns. Flint, Michigan, Windsor, Ontario, Hazel Park, Lansing, Deutsche's House, I don't know if that's a building name or what, Owasso, Alpena,

Pontiac, Michigan, Muskegan, Ipsilante, Monroe, Grand Rapids, Flint, Dearborn, and Lakeshore. They had, in those five days, live wrestling events in all those different towns, that were drawing anywhere from 200 to, you know, up to 1,500 people or whatever it was in Detroit. And the total gates of all of that five days is $6,500, which still doesn't sound incredibly, you know, impressive now until you realize that's almost $150,000 today. In 1936, you could buy four or five brand new cars for $6,500. The average family income per year was like a third of that.

So putting in perspective, what is the, I don't have the map in front of me, but I recognize most of those towns, you weren't leaving Detroit going farther than 150 miles and running all with no television, just all those little buildings and all those places and with crews of wrestlers. All those auto workers. There you go. And so when you're talking about it a week, that little local territory with no television and trips not that long could gross the equivalent of a hundred.

$150,000 in five days, 150 grand today. It's just fascinating to me. You know, I just found some research that Tim Hornbaker did. It's on his old website, Legacy of Wrestling.com. From right after this period of time, in the Wednesday, April 1st, 1936 edition of the Detroit News, it was stated that Michigan Wrestling and Boxing Commissioner, or Commission Chairman James M. Bingo Brown

has suspended the new heavyweight champion Dick Shikat from appearing in this state for his failure to appear for scheduled matches in Tennessee and Indiana. Michigan had a working agreement with those two states. Schickett was scheduled to make an appearance in Detroit Monday, but because of his runouts will not be allowed to wrestle here, he is under contract to promoter Adam Weissmuller for Michigan.

Schickat was scheduled to wrestle John Leon Gradovich at the Arena Gardens on Monday. The paper also indicated that there was a battle between promoters. The suspension of Shikat was interpreted in wrestling circles as an exchange of blows between the two rival Detroit wrestling promoters. Weissmuller and Nick Landis. And by the way, Nick Landis was not related to Jim Lonnie. dose. No, different spelling, ES as opposed to OS. Just for the kids. As well as punches between the group known as the Wrestling Trust and a lesser

band of performers controlled by Al Haft to Columbus, Ohio, and Weissmiller of Detroit. Shikat jumped to the Haft Weissmila booking agency, a minor league trust after Dano O'Mahoney quit to him in New York. Until that match, Shickat's appearances were handled through the booking agencies controlled by Jack Hurley in New York, Paul Bowser in Boston,

Ed White in Chicago, Tom Pax in St. Louis, and Londis in Detroit. Londis was a member of this trust. So I'll stop there for a second before I go to the other interesting thing here about this period of time, but there it is. I mean, do you even say that's outlaw? Was it outlaw at that time, or he's running against the wrestling trust?

That's the NWA and, without the name. It's the NWA. It's that model. Well, no. No, not even because you can't say anything was really outlaw. Well, yeah, there's some promoters had been at a particular spot for quite some time and others would try to come in and fuck them around.

But for the most part, there was no outlaw promotions of that period of time because so many allegiances changed or sometimes a promoter had no choice. if the booking agent cut him off because he got in with somebody, they didn't lie, he'd have to go to somebody else for it. So they were all jumping back and forth. And Ray Fabiani would be promoting Philadelphia in 1940, and suddenly he's at the Olympic Auditorium and the promoter matchbegger there in 41.

They just went everywhere. And so there's really no outlaw type of thing, but you've got something else there, and then you mentioned Ed White. I'll bring him back up. Yeah, there's a couple more interesting things. about this. And again, I didn't really, I've never looked into this before, so this is all fascinating. On Thursday, April 2, 1936, the Michigan State Boxing and Wrestling Commission ruled that Shikat

could fulfill his contract obligation in Detroit on Monday. On Saturday, April 4th, Nick Landis declared himself for gymnasium tournaments to restore the grunt and grown profession to its former high standard by eliminating gorillas, mustached fakers, bearded beasts, and small fry wrestlers according to the Detroit news.

So he's not taking to this too well they had. I do that shit. It's got to wrestle there. Well, that's because that's Pfeffer's guys. Pfeffer was known for the

the mustached guys and the freaks and the weirdos. and the blah, blah, blah, and the gimmicks. And so he's declaring that he'll face any of them in the local gym for real to settle, God damn, who's the best? He said he had requested the National Wrestling Association to sanction a professional tournament to be held in Detroit from now until we clean out the fakers, that's a quote.

Landa said he had suggested a tournament with matches held weekly among wrestlers who think they could last 10 minutes in a gym workout with some of the present-day chieftains. He believed the tournament would push aside these man-eating monsters

the type that is disgusting the fans. Instead of naming names, he mentioned the chair-smashing eye-poking polukas whose crowd appeal depends on such stunts as eating spectators' straw hats

and slugging referees. Chief Coochke. Among the wrestlers Lundas named as being those who could make quote any of the riff-raft class say uncle were O'Mahoney, Jim Landoz, Ray Steele, Strangler-Lewis, Gus Sonen, Jim McMillan,

Man Mountain Dean, the Dusick Brothers, Hans Kempfer, Hans Stanky, Ray Richards, Fred Grumbier, Leo Numa... Fred Grubmeier, misspelled. Excuse me, Fred Grubmeier, Leo Numa,

Vincent Lopez, George Zahrius, Cliff Olson, and Everett Marshall. Jesus Christ, how did Dean get in there? He couldn't put a fucking wrist lock

on his own fucking wrist. Weissmewa was called for comment and said, quote, thank him for me for the blast. He added that it was great publicity for his Monday show, actually hoping that he would do it again before press time. So Adam Weissel was really going back and forth with them, but it leads to this card here.

Detroit, Michigan, Monday, April 6, 1936. Shikat beats John Leo Grandovich. Alibaba beat Al-George. Ivan Rasputin beat... Excuse me, Ivan Rasputin and Han Schnabel went to a draw. Walter Padolnik beat Frank Malkowitz Padolik

He would be the golden Superman Babyface Nelson Beat Murray Warham Jose Manuel beat Mike Colanis Adam Weissmiller was the promoter The referee Vern Clark

3,543 fans Gate $4,419 $65. It is said to be the second largest crowd in Weiss Miller's experience as a promoter here. The previous record was Lundas versus Orville Brown, which did $21,168. Jeez. And in the early 30s, because that was Londos' best period.

So that would be... What's $21,000 then? Yeah, really. Oh, my God. Well, I can tell you that... My inflation calculator notes only go back to 1940. A dollar, it would be worth $23 today. So $20,000 times 25 or so, whatever the case.

But you mentioned Ed White, who was the promoter in Chicago that the big shows that Lundas had done in Chicago and that everything before the late 40s Fred Kohler era, right? Yeah, by the way, 21,000 in 1930, let's say, would be over $405,000 today. Actually, here's something. Look at 1935. Because of the way that they do the inflation calculator, it's related to purchasing power. 494,000. Wow. The Depression, everything was devalued.

Before the, and 1930 was a start of it, but you go back in the late 20s. in Madison Square Garden, the wrestling promoters in the 1920s were charging up to $10 or $12 for a ringside ticket. And that didn't come back in until the 60s again. Things in the, because of the roaring 20s, things were not, you know, as tight as they would be. And it took the 30s and 40s for that period of time for it to adjust up to what it once was.

Some things never did. But nevertheless, you've heard. of Ed White, Brian, but have you heard of IT Flatto? I am not familiar with Mr. Flato or whatever that is. I-T-flatoed. I don't know. I as in I, T as in T, Flato, F-L-A-T-O.

As funny as this sounds, because when me and Tom Burke Bobby Fulton found it, we thought it was a rib, right? We thought the Fepford concocted some kind of alter ego or whatever, but no, then we started seeing letterheads. And apparently, Jack Pfeffer had found an attorney sometime in the 1930s in New York named IT Flatto. He really was an attorney at law in New York. And he was also one of those guys that still exist today on the, you know, the independency.

he was interested in wrestling. And Feffer set him up with towns to run. Remember, we talked on last week's show about the little of the small places like the Bronx Winter Garden or Ridgewood Arena or Ridgewood Grove, whatever it was, or Willie Gilsenberg had the Newark Armory. Well, it was the same thing. This guy, and I mean, the records again, we could have sat there all day, try to figure all this shit out.

but whatever his towns were, they were the, you know, a couple of the clubs, as they called them, around the greater New York area. And so he was not only Feffer's attorney handling everything from his taxes to write and commission people on his behalf, but he was also promoting shows, right, IT Flato. And this is a letter. Is it from the Paramount building? Um, well hold on

I got this is this is a letter to him so it doesn't have his it has rich ridgwood his address is Ridgewood borough of Queens New York City Oh yeah Ridgewood wow Hold on is there I don't know if I have a flat old letterhead

in this stack of stuff here but he was He had a letterhead of an office in New York And again one would think it's a rib But there's enough documentation that he was a fucking human being there's official people writing to him and he's writing back, and it doesn't sound like Fever. So Ed White from Chicago, January 9, 1937, said, dear Mr. Flato, I have your favor of the seventh

that appreciate to your interest in the wrestling business, no idea. I, too, am of the opinion that the game can be revived, but only if a man of your caliber gets behind it. I have very little faith in the propositions, plans, and promises of any of those now connected with the wrestling sport in and around New York, and this includes little Jack Pfeffer. Their word means absolutely nothing. They are very shifty and do not stay put for any length of time. Their deals and agreements among themselves with wrestlers, promoters, in fact, with anybody, means little or nothing to them. Each seems to think that he should boss the business

and be recognized as a mastermind, and this, in spite of the fact that for four long years, They have been ranked failures. Remember the garden wrestling business took a nosedive about 1933, 34, with the bad publicity, et cetera, and Landoz wore off. Fever is as bad as any of them, but with you behind him, I feel confident that you can hold him down and make him stay put. Now, bear in mind, this is in Fephyr's file, so he saw this. this. Even right now, I was going to be my question. How did it get there? Because his lawyer,

he wrote this to his, IT, Flatto, I don't know how long he had been Feffer's lawyer, or if he was feeling out at this point, Flatto was various promoters of people or whatever, but this is, in the Feffer file. So he saved it, even though it's a letter from White to Flatto. I've been, listen to this. Even right now, I think he has skisphor. teaming around with different people. He was to have been here tomorrow for a conference to propose a deal but have just received a telegram from him, advising he has a show tonight at Jersey City and therefore cannot make the appointment. Evidently, he is using my correspondence as a wedge to set himself in with some of his former associates. So it looks to me like it's useless to attempt to organize and maintain successful operations with men of that stripe, unless, of course, a deal is made backed by you. I think that White may think this guy's a lawyer, he's got money, right? But anyway, and he's trying to butter up Flatto.

Trusting that sometime in the near future, we will be able to get together and rebuild the business back where it should be, and I feel confident that this can be accomplished. So what year was that? January 9, 1937. The guy, Flatto is in Fever's business for the next 15 years. You know, I googled him as you brought him up. I've never heard the name before.

And what came up was a letter from the Charlie Chaplin archive, where I guess he wrote in to Chaplin's attorney when Chaplin was battling a paternity suit and gave him advice on another case. Like, here's something that happens. It's a very nice letter with details sending back to IT Flatto, Paramount Building, 1,501 Broadway. That's Times Square, New York, New York. So he was involved with, you know, wasn't just wrestling.

involved somehow with the bigger world of entertainment. May 31st, 1945, the letter. Okay, he was involved in representing Feffer. There's letters that I saw ranging in dates from 37 to, I believe, early 50s because it was at least early 50s because of his tax issues. Listen, if he was an attorney in the Paramount building in the 40s, that means he represented entertainment industry clients. There you go.

so and he was a wrestling promoter huh or at Lee maybe maybe he wasn't out there of the one hanging the posters but he he was the promoter for the clubs for the particular clubs they gave him

and that's a word you haven't really used that much in these discussions but you know I always think of Bruno San Martino because he was like the last guy to still use them more yeah like Vince sent me to the clubs go to this club go to this club but that was a common phrase back then to talk about a lot of the

whatever you want to say, buildings or... That's what... In those days, again, before the modern territory structure and everything was, you know, laid out in the same fashion,

these small buildings were all controlled by different local promoters, and they were called the clubs. You know, that's my... Newark is my club. The promoters just for what... And it comes from boxing, I believe from probably the late 1800s. But yeah, that's my club, or I've got the clubs doing great business here in the Michigan area or whatever.

It was the towns, it was the buildings. And it wasn't as much the buildings, but the towns, because they would still say it's my club, even if they were in a different building in the same town. So that's the way that they did things, and there were so many local promoters involved, because that's the way you had to do it. was no television. They weren't really buying radio for fucking Ipsilante in 1936, right? So posters, local paper, word of mouth, hustling, that's what they were doing. We're going to come back to Flatto in a minute. But this is a telegram. Brian, you remember from the

Jim Lundas book and also from several of the Hornbaker books, Jack Curley. we've talked about here on the program was probably the major wrestling promoter of the pioneer days up until his death in 1937. Jack Curley was the guy that had done more with... He promoted the fucking Jack Johnson fight, right? I mean, he was into everything.

Yeah, he had Yankee Stadium, he had the garden, he had everything in the New York area, and you learn more about him, that fantastic book that John Langmead wrote, Ballyhoo. recommend that to anyone who cares about wrestling history. That's the book. And as a matter of that, I blanked on that,

but that is the one that I was referring. But as we know, Jack Curley died, and he was the head of promoter of Madison Square Garden in in 1937, and they did a Jack Curley Memorial wrestling card for him in the garden, but that was the time where the garden was not doing too well. but they apparently made an effort to try to revitalize thing. This is a telegram from September 2nd, 1937 to Jim Landoz, care of Tom Pax at the Maryland

Hotel in St. Louis, Missouri. And remember last week we talked about the Johnston family associated with Madison Square Garden, boxing and wrestling. They had the contract with the garden in some fashion where everything related to something in the ring went through them, no matter what promoters or talent they were dealing with. Well, this is from Bill Johnston, as I said to Lando's care of Tom Pax, who was the St. Louis promoter, we are opening Madison Square Garden September 15th Memorial for the late Jack Curley. Stop. Can offer you $5,000 guarantee with privilege of... 25% of net receipts to meet Steve Crusher Casey,

finish bout, stop. If agreeable, confirm acceptance. And I mean, I don't see why that this would, this is a legitimate telegram. I don't see why this would be part of publicity. But in those days, Landoz got guarantees versus percentages, they were trying to draw in the guard,

garden, around $5,000 again from 1937 today would be somewhere over $100,000. But he didn't take it for whatever reason. I've got from, again, Scott Teal, Crowbar Press.com, the book, Wrestling in the Garden, the September 15th, 1937, Jack Curley Memorial Show, Steve Casey ended up beating Benny Feldman. Dano O. Mahoney did a 30-minute Broadway with Ed Don George. That's a big match. That was a big match.

That was a big match. But no championship at that point. Yvonne Robéer beat Billy Bartush, George Clark, Jim Wallace, Jesse James, drew Billy Rayburn. I mean, these fucking. names, right? Steve Casey, O'Mahoney, and George were the names, but Casey and Feldman in the main event, they drew 3,000 people. So at garden ticket prices of the time, one would think, I said that I don't know that's a $15,000 house. I'm trying to find some record of similar

attendance with a dollar figure attached, but they weren't. they weren't bandying those figures about at that time period they weren't doing well so point is they would have been out some money if he'd had taken the fucking offer but that's the kind of money that londos used to command in those days to do a major event which is fucking insane because now but here's when you go back in the gardens or in the garden rather to the 1920s, they were doing, at least reporting gates of like $60,000 and $70,000 for the big match. And here, a $30,000, and this was the older, older garden. So 12,000 people was a sellout.

But the average ticket prices in the 20s were decidedly higher than the 30s because of the depression. But Londos was still in the early 30s. 30s selling a place out. And then as a matter of fact, hold on, where's the stadium show? You know, the depression hit it didn't kill the motion picture business. No matter how bad things got, there were certain parts of entertainment that it really didn't hurt as bad as it should have, could have, would have.

Well, and the movies were already, you know, Nickelodeons. That's where it started, the nickel. the movies were 10 cents or whatever so it didn't affect them it actually boosted attendance because that was some way you could get some entertainment without you know spending a fortune but with sports tickets there was a deflation that happened that you know it took a while to recover from and that's a that's when londos and ray steel on june 30 June 1931 had done 30,000 people at Yankee Stadium and the house was $63,000. Yeah. So in, you know, again, that was a fantastic crowd, but the tickets were only a couple of dollars average, whereas 10 years before it had been double that. Nevertheless, he didn't make the, the poor Jack Curley was not remembered by Jim Lundas.

but there's more. Ray Fabiani. We talked about him. He was notable for being the longtime promoter in Philadelphia and was incredibly successful there. But again, these guys in the 30s and 40s, they would pick up and go from, you know, one major market to the other because they had so many connections,

they could still get talent and they would open up building or take over beleaguered territories or just, you know, whatever. It was there was no restraint on anybody at that time as long as they stayed in with a click of promoters and booking offices that could supply them with talent. So, but in Philadelphia, Ray Fabiani Sports, April 3rd, 1940, it was at 1607 Sandsom Street, by the way, S-A-N-S-O-O-S-O-O-E. him. He wrote to Jack Fever at the Times building in New York City. Dear Jack, I've done a great job with the angel today. He will tell you himself when he returns and everything is going along very nicely.

Edd Cepfer at the time was booking, was it the Swedish angel at that point in time, which was a rip-off of Maurice Tolet, the French angel. whichever angel the ugly folks the freaks right is what he termed them but fabiani says but there is one thing that you must do so that we will have no trouble and that is to stop mailing things to newspapers around here remember that the press here as well as everywhere else resents you and your wrestlers due to the terrible statements you have made and it has not been easy for me to overcome all this.

The story of St. Louis, while it criticized the other angel, it was a terrible knock to wrestling, and mailing it to them does not help anything. Therefore, I'm warning you not to do it if our relations are to be cordial. Best regards, sincerely yours, Ray Fabiani. Fever would get so pissed off that if he had an interest,

maybe he made the first angel and then the first angel left him, he made another angel whatever the fuck we got to study this period to determine what's behind these letters but the point is he got so fucking

bitter at these people that any time they went into a wrestling area he would send the newspapers articles claiming they weren't the real champion or they weren't the real angel or they were fake or whatever the fuck and the promoters that were using these guys

would have to tell him please god damn it quit right but fabiani had had did business with feffer for years and years i think there's another letter maybe in here and you know but every once in while there had to be a stern wording but i thought that was incredible please remember that the press here as well as everywhere else resent you and your wrestlers due to the terrible statements you have made jack wasn't popular in philadelphia fabiani would later anyway fabiani later ran against cholera for a brief period of time in Chicago.

Yes, and that was, what, 1950, 51, so that was like 10 years after that. Yeah. Okay. By the way, I. T. Flato, his real name is Isaac. Isaac T. Flato. It just, it sounds like, fake, like some kind of fake gimmick name

that they put in charge of a wrestling school in the territories in the 70s. But anyway, all right. I said we were going to maybe rewrite some history here. And I got to find all of my notes. Because there are letters from IT Flatto, copies of the letters that Feffer's lawyer sent to various people, including the Athletic Commission and the producer of the television mobile unit

for the national broadcasting company in New York. and I did a little looking up in other places also. And by the way, kids don't trust Wikipedia for everything. There's a few factual miserrors on there. But remember, Brian, we talked several weeks ago about the history of television wrestling and how early it started and, oh gosh, what's our fine friend's name over in the United Kingdom and does the incredible research and oh shit because I'm old now

and his name's Adam isn't it or is it god damn you know who you are pal we love you but he had narrowed it down to in England they did something in the late 30s in the you know the experimental phase but there's a lot of we've been talking about over the past few weeks and last week's program, especially there was regular wrestling on television every night of the week from the local buildings in the New York area, between 1947 and 1950, on every station it was practically on the air, right? and when we talked about our friend across the pond's research, the first television studio wrestling show

had been on the WRBG Schenectady station that was an offshoot of the RCA experimental laboratories. Remember? That was 1942. Yeah. now that's why Wikipedia has the first this is what they say the first successful recurring wrestling program was Hollywood wrestling on KTLA in 1947

but that's not true because we know that at the same time period New York had the nightly shows and Chicago had wrestling on WBKB which turned into WBBMBBB I believe is Channel 2 today. Hi, everybody in Chicago, Land. They had that show in the summer of 1946. The Dumont Network debut of wrestling from Chicago was July of 1948.

So there's a lot of firsts involved there that have been known before and have been quoted in various places. But I got something here. that I think somebody ought to look into further. Because this is a letter from IT Flatto to Mr. Burke Crotty, I swear to God these names, producer of the television mobile unit,

National Broadcasting Company Incorporated RCA Building, Radio City, New York, New York. And this is dated February 20th, 1940, right? Dear Mr. Crotty, after we discuss the subject of television at the meeting of the State Athletic Commission today, and after the meeting, I also discussed the same with Mr. Bill Johnston, promoter at the Garden, the Johnston family, and Mr. Jack Feffer. Mr. Bill Johnston is ready to accept $100 for every boxing show televised during the next three months and or to the end of the indoor boxing season at this club.

So now they're talking about one of the small, they're not talking about the garden itself, they're talking about one of the small clubs in the area, and I believe we will get that out of another letter. But nevertheless, Mr. Feffer is ready to accept the sum of $50 for every wrestling show televised during the same period. This is the minimum amount which either will accept, and I have no objection to your discussion, discussing the matter with either of them,

and entering into any different contract which you're able to make with them. Now that we have the approval of the commission for the balance of the indoor season, they insist that the new contract become effective at once. I do not know whether you intend to televise on Thursday and Saturday of this week, and if you do, I suggest that you get in touch with the above-mentioned people at once and agree with them on the amount to be paid. I've done everything possible to bring the commission. to an understanding of television,

and after many months of hard work, have got them to understand the situation my way. It is now up to the national broadcasting company to do the rest, and if you need my help, you may be the same to the fullest. Keep in mind Thursday's holiday, work quickly, sincerely yours.

This is February 1940, and this has already been taking place. And Fever had written a, note at the top, apparently to flato, talk to crotty like a businessman, not a wrestler. But if this is, and here there's some other stuff, but are you, are you salivating so far over what the fuck was going on here? No, this is fascinating. And I just look some stuff up online, just trying to find more information.

They're apparently free to download from world radio history.com. the NBC Transmitter, the employee magazine for NBC from 35 to 45. So it may be a good idea to pound through those and just see what possibly could be mentioned. I mean, but again, I'm getting ahead of thing. You're kind of just hitting us with something brand new. Well, hold on. Do they have television or just radio listings? I think it's, I don't even know if it's listings.

it's a in-house NBC magazine dealing with all the different affiliates. Okay, I see what she said. I see what she said. I'll send you this link. I'll send you this link. Okay, well, that was February 20. The very next day, February 21, 1914, 1940,

he writes to the Honorable John J. Feeleon, chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission, 155 Worth Street, New York City. My dear general, after the national broadcasting company informally agreed to pay for the televising of boxing and wrestling shows at this club, its representatives obtained the erroneous impression from your commission yesterday that they could continue to broadcast free of cost for a period of three months. I know that the free days are over and informed them they must pay $50 for wrestling and $100 for boxing or they are out in a cold. so far they have accepted wrestling dates February 22

1940 and February 29 1940 at the above rate if they don't pay as above set forth television will be discontinued at this club sincerely IT flatto discontinued that means it's been continued for a while yes that yeah and they've already agreed to the date of the day after he's writing this letter in the following week whatever the 22nd, 29th were, whatever night of the week that was.

And the wrestling and boxing, and we're going to get into another letter here that may explain some of this, but $50 for wrestling from 1940, we've established that would probably be about $1,200 for broadcast rights. And double for boxing because they were on a different pay schedule. But now here's the thing. I know a lot of people are saying, wait a minute. televising to who for what how what's going on here okay apparently television in new york and folks they've written books about this so it's not like i can just i don't want to bore you but try to give you a grip the schenectady rca experimental studios from like 1938

it kind of became the wrbg and schenectady and there was another offshoot of that that became WNBT in New York and is now WNBC. And Brian, since you've lived there, do they crow a lot that we're the oldest continuously broadcasting television station in the country? I don't think they do.

Yeah, I don't think they do. That's NBC here in New York, Channel 4. Well, WNBT was actually on the air. air irregularly every once in a while, whatever the fuck, in 1936 for like a hundred high-level RCA executives that had sets in their house and they had a boardroom where they could have TVs people could watch when they had meetings to show them what it looked like, right? The actual television itself.

And regular commercial service was apparently scheduled for the 1939 World's Fair. fair. And then they were broadcasting to several hundred, because that's where at the World's Fair, they were trying to get people, hey, buy this new thing called television. But they actually became commercially licensed stations the same day, WNBT in New York and WCBW

that became the WCBS station in Chicago, in July 1941 they were supposed to go on the air at the exact same time but the New York station fucked them on the deal and went on the air an hour ahead of time. So they were still broadcasting

to nobody and the war you know, fuck things up further and TV sets cost you know what did we say when we did that piece a while back like $20,000 for the average person if they wanted to have it in today's money.

But they were working out how to do it and figuring shit out and actually broadcasting a signal to almost nobody, but part of it was wrestling was there from the start. And then in April 1940, and I don't need to read this whole goddamn thing, but he wrote the Honorable D. Walker Ware at the Hotel Mayflower, 61st Street and Central Park West, New York City. This is from Flatto. My dear Commissioner, I received your letter of the fifth,

and I have noted contents. Perhaps the National Broadcasting Company did not comply with your request because they received pretty rough treatment between your commission and this office. At a great expense, both to the National Broadcasting Company and this office, television was installed in my club along experiments,

lines. Your commission was opposed to television and General Phelan insisted for four months on my receiving $400 a night, just as if he had anything to do with it at all. And finally, when the showdown came before the commission on February 20, the commission was ready to give away my building for nothing to the national broadcasting company

for a period of four months. As the experimental stage had ended, and I'm solely in business to make money, I informed the National Broadcasting Company that unless they paid for every wrestling and boxing show, that they could not continue at Ridgewood Grove, there's, there it is. For any time in the future, where did you say that was, Brian?

Was that Queens? That's Queens. And yeah, I have the results here. The results of... You said it was February 22nd, 1940? You found that already? Yeah, I found it already. There's a website. New York,

NYProwessling.com. And you said it was the 22nd. What was the other date? The 29th, seven days later. Oh, yeah. So that would have been, oh no, 29th. Again, that may not be listed here.

The 29th is White Plains, New York, but that could be just another town on the circuit. The 22nd, Michelle Ione, defeated Felix Slovikowski, Angelo Martinelli, Defeated Jack Brown, Dave Levin, drew with Ray Schwartz, Maurice Boyer, drew with Patrick Kavanaugh, Zim-Zam-Zum, defeated Juan Olaquivel, and Frederick von Schatt. I went to, it just says a time here, maybe a draw, with Benny Rosen.

And that was apparently televised. And... He said installed it in my club. that the way you phrased it? Well, yeah, hold on here. Yeah, at a great expense to both NBC of this office, television was installed in my club along experimental lines. Now, I see, again, nobody knew how to fucking talk about this stuff then.

So did it mean that was installed, they brought it in and, you know, left it there or they just brought the remote equipment in or whatever? Did they wire the building, right? They wire the building. but he says as the experimental stage had ended and the period was at four months that they were trying to renew for, that would have put them into late 1939

possibly if they had started that far. But nevertheless, I informed the NBC that unless they paid for every wrestling and boxing show, they could not continue at Ridgewood Grove for any time in the future. They paid for two wrestling shows so that would have been February 22nd or maybe 29th or whatever and I thereupon refused to have them continue further unless they paid the amount which I desired

and which I informed the commission was a reasonable charge that was $50, right? For the moment I have abandoned television although my building is the only one in the United States now ready to televise boxing and wrestling shows. So he's apparently got the whatever facilities they needed at the time to do that. So it sounds like you've uncovered the first regular TV, maybe the first TV wrestling show in the United States actually. Right?

And it sounds that way because they're talking about the experimental nature and that, okay, we, you know, we took a fling on this. but now I need, you know, about $50 or whatever. And that would have, that would have ended in late February 1940, so would they have gone on the air as early as late 1939 for an experimental period? I mean, you know, again. And again, no advertising. Obviously, naturally, there was no commercial advertising on any of these programs. Well, no, because nobody could really see it.

So you would be wasting money telling people, hey, here's what you can't see tonight that's going on. And that's another thing is that they weren't even worried about it harming the gate at that point. It was just like, you know, if you're going to fucking, you know, annoy me with this, give me $50 or the boxing people, give us $100. You know, because they didn't do anything for nothing. They were willing to take the fling because they thought that somebody would NBC. They're thinking, the big radio.

company, but they got money. Even if television is fucking nothing. So, and then the rest of this letter is about a guy that got suspended to blah, blah, blah. But then he closes, I'm on very friendly terms with the national broadcasting company, and any night you want tickets to investigate the situation of television, I'll be glad to be of service to you. And this was April 6, 1940, as I said. I'm very friendly with these people that are refusing to give me $50.

So if you need me to make any corrections, let me know. Wow. You know, I said it last time. There's a deep dive somewhere just about the history of wrestling TV in New York from, I would have said the late 40s, but now we can go well before then. From 1940 to 19, let's say, 56, just what actually was airing, what was actually being aired live, what was being aired from

the studio on the west side that later became the Sony Studios. There's a whole lot of stuff we still don't have clarity on. And remember we did the segment on St. Louis television, I think they did some kind of experimental deal and Longson was the first wrestler while Bill Longson on TV in St. Louis, and it was like 1946, I believe.

Yeah. But this, it predates, everything and again they weren't doing television to make money and it wasn't hurting their gate because except for people seeing a bunch of those big cameras there

it almost it didn't exist in people's minds so it was just it was they were going along with something and and television people he didn't have any handhelds so it was just giant mic giant cameras yeah it was as big as a

refrigerator in those days sitting up the fucking cheap seats looking down at the ring and you know for it was a non-entity but the television networks were trying to figure out what they could televise and what might be popular in a way that they could present it well because as we've said in those days between the size of the screens and the cameras basketball football baseball it was almost it would be you know visual gibberish you could couldn't see it, you couldn't follow it. But wrestling and boxing was right there.

But nevertheless, we will try to delve into a little bit of this news and see what else we can find out. But apparently there was a television program for a period of weeks, at least, on television that nobody could see between 1939 and early 1940 in the New York area. Yeah, now you got me wondering how many buildings, if any, were actually hardwired, as opposed to well he was writing a letter to the mobile operations group

I think you said yes and see that's the thing is that was probably at that point be the only mobile operations unit anywhere in the world

yeah in the world yeah well at least in the country let's not get too grandiose yeah the guys at movie tone news are like who the fuck is this guy this truck

but that's that's the thing is that that was they probably had just figured out a way to name that thing. Oh, they take shit out of our building and shoot it elsewhere. We'll call it mobile. So you know what the another, it just made me think of it, thinking about some of the people who would have big broadcasting careers

either locally or nationwide who began as wrestling commentators because wrestling aired and we need a commentator, Russ Davis, go do it. Yeah. Who is the first wrestling commentator, including radio? That's one of those ones we don't know, right? No, I don't. And it would not even be clear with this that we're talking about that they even did commentary or had an announcer. No guarantees.

There's no guarantees of that. And that may be the reason there is an announcer. People saw that footage. You know, they might have said, well, yeah, we need somebody to tell them what the fuck's happening. But Lance Russell had done wrestling on radio, but it was. it was not this early. He would have still only been a mere pup of like fucking 15 or 16 in 1940. And then I don't know that they had ever had regularly scheduled wrestling broadcasts on

radio, but we know big matches were called or aired or somehow done. So, but yeah, so that would be, if they had a goddamn basement, that was discovered in Schenectady or whatever were if they had a, could they, did they even do kinescope that early? But some method of recording, the experimental broadcast they did in the late 30s and early 40s,

that would be cool as shit. But I have a feeling we'll be waiting for a while. You never know. But Brian, they were trying to figure out new businesses. They were trying to figure out new businesses. That's right. It was a brand new business,

producing television shows, selling advertising for television, selling televisions, all brand new. It was a dream. It was a dream of General David Sarnoff and the people who made the cathode ray tubes and all those type of things. And they didn't dream of being astronauts or they didn't dream of being the princess at a castle somewhere. They dreamed of being television broadcasters.

And it took them years and years of hard work and slogging. Can you imagine Brian how? how easy it would have been at the dawn of television if they'd have had Shopify. Can you imagine? It would have been less slogging, more of that. Well, that's right. It would have been definitely less slogging and more, more cashing, more sending cash to the bank. Because if there had been Shopify, Brian, at the dawn of TV in 1940,

then WNBC wouldn't have had anything to worry about. they could have just said, hey, Shopify, build us a beautiful website. Hey, Shopify, enhance all of our product images and put it on the internet. A Shopify, write the product descriptions, generate discount codes. Give us some easy to run email and social media campaigns. Email everybody in the United States at 1940 and tell them that we're on the air. And then use your customer support when people call and say, we don't know how to work this shit.

you call television. And Shopify, Kaching, they could have had everybody ready to make money in like three months. That's because they're, they're efficient and they know what they're doing. Brian,

why didn't they call Shopify in 1940? I guess they weren't around then. Yeah, I mean, if you... Who was running the internet in 1940? I think if you had called someone and said, build me a website in 1940, they may have committed you. And they may have called it in one house back then.

I would want, people to be committed to what I'm doing. I'd want them to be 100% behind it. And Shopify, folks, is going to be 100% behind you, giving you the old heave-ho, the old shove to the top every step of the way. They're behind millions of businesses around the world. 10% of all the e-commerce in the United States comes from Shopify, all the way from the big boys like Mattel to the little bitty fellas like IT Flat-O. And they'll lead you by the hands. And they'll lead you by the hand and sometimes shoot you into the ropes every step of the way. So Brian, I think it's only fair that people, the people out there that want to dream,

that want to retire as successfully as these old time wrestling promoters, turn the dreams into reality and money and get a $1 a month trial period. They're right there. That's it. I got to get one of those. See, I'll just knock down a belly dancer and take her little finger clackers. there you see yeah i'd mess with me there gladys you got a little slap sign up for your one dollar a month trial period and start selling today

like an auctione at shopify dot com slash jcee shopify dot com slash jcee you'll be selling like you're going to the electric chair oh god please oh god no i don't think it'll be that Is that? Oh, no. No, and you don't need to be an auctioneer either. And, of course, they power our online store, ArcadianVanguard.com, those great drive-through t-shirts, powered by our friends at Shopify. You can find us in the shop app. They can do the same for you and your products. Jim, one more time, in a professional manner, what is that wonderful promo code?

No, that's not. No. You got to go right now. No matter what you do, go to Shopify. buy.com slash JCE. Oh, you just got to. All righty.

Well, in sticking with the subject of the financial world, Brian, we talked a couple weeks ago about Jack Feffer's income tax returns and the odd deductions he took and the amount of them and also the amount of money that

he made from booking wrestlers all over the all over the country to various promoters, right? And I think I mentioned it was in, these were my handwritten notes. In 1950, he made $10,000 off Buddy Rogers as his commission for getting Rogers' book. Now, Rogers was one of the biggest draws into business at the time.

But we don't know, because a lot of his records are handwritten and it just lines on a piece of paper with names and figures. We don't know what deal he had with each individual guy. and they varied. By the end of a, we'll have a segment sometime soon when I can really do some more note-taking on the Fargoes,

but there was a period of time toward the end of his career, Pfeffer's career, in the early 60s, where he only had a few guys like Jackie and Don Fargo and some girls that he was booking, but he would get the same thing

they got for a payoff. So if they each got $50, he got $50 from the promoter. But in the days where he had all these guys and he was sending them to all these different major promoters, he had a piece but not that much. So would you think

Brian, is it reasonable to assume that Rogers here, I have another payoff sheet with all the wrestlers that he had and my picture cut this off. I don't know whether there's 1949 or 1948. but that year he made $8,392.93 off of Buddy Rogers' bookings. Would that have meant that he got 20%?

Rogers couldn't have made $83,000 in 1948. But even at 20%, if what was $40,000 in 1949, What would that be in today's money? According to the inflation calculator, $40,000 in 1949 would be $542,000, give or take today. So, I mean, that's believable because of where Rogers was and what we're seeing about some of these other financial records. But this has, Billy Darnell, who would become one of Rogers' favorite opponents in that, initial push. In 1950, he got five grand off of Darnel's bookings.

This year, he only got $1,560. So this was still forming because we're finding out more and more that Feffer is the one that pushed Rogers to the capes and the posters and the robes and the whole, the nature boy, the whole gimmick aspect of Rogers. Of course, he was responsible for the in-ring working. but that was his golden goose for a long time and that's why later on there was such bitterness but he listened to some of these other names.

I don't even know who a lot of them were. He got $3,220 off somebody named Demon. So he has some masked guy, right? I guess. But that would be, again, equivalent to like, what's $3,200 from? 1949. $3,200 in

1949 would be approximately $43,000 and changed today. So somehow, of some guy named Demon, that's what he got for the year. Frank Hickey is on here for $690. I believe Levin, possibly

Dave Levin, $1,077. I'm pretty sure it would have been him. He was one of the guys Fefer pushed as a champion. That's right. Sammy Burr. Fefer created him. Fephyr created Dave Levin. That's right.

And created the path that he claimed the title from, right, on those posters. He said he was the Jamaican butcher boy, or not Jamaican, but Jamaica butcher boy. He was from Jamaica Queens, and they tried to make him the Jewish champion. He wasn't Jewish. He was a German kid from Queens, and Fephyr gave him a name and gave him the career. And now here, even the late 40s, Marshall, would that be Everett Marshall? was he still active? Probably.

It almost has to be $2,250. And then, I mean, there's a lot of names Sandal, not sure. Young Sandal, one of the, you know, those type of, go ahead. Did you know that Feffer was booking Everett Marshall? Well, you know, no, maybe Everett Marshall might not have known it. No, and Jack Feffer, who knows? Here's Walter Potalack to become the Golden Superman, 200 bucks. Tor Johnson, of course, later to become famous for his role in Plan 9 from outer space, $255.

I mean, there's just a lot of names here. Yvonne Robert, $165, Kowalski with a Y. I don't know, but $290. What about Blimble Evie? Believe it, $50. Really? For leaving. It just says Levy.

It's got to be him. But was he injured and out? with the year? Did he break off with Fever or was that he was morbidly obese? Was he ready to call it quits by 1948 or 49? But I mean, this whole, the total

is God damn, he's got two columns total, so 38 is $44,500 he got from talent. So what would that be from 49? 44 grand. From

one, two, three, four, six, I did 44-5 based on what you said. That would be $603,000. Yeah, and there's like 40 guys on this list. So that, no wonder he was fucking crazy writing letters all the time. Can you imagine trying to keep up with all of that in the days before modern communication, as they say? You know, based on the money he was making, if he didn't live in hotels his whole life, he had enough money to have like a beautiful house anywhere.

that point in time. Oh, well, listen to the expenses now. I got his expenses for 1950. Remember, I found this picture I got printed out from Hotchkiss because 1950 is the year where he made like $60,000 plus in booking fees from talent and a promoter in Ohio, but he declared 26 grand in expenses. $26,000 in 1950 is the same as him declaring. fucking $300,000 in expenses off of his income tax, right? Railroad fares and transportation, $19181. Hotels 1624. Office storage, 345.

Where's that? Yeah. He was storing his meals while on road, 2920. let's say three grand that he's he's writing off like 45 grand in food or whatever a taxi thirteen hundred dollars photos cuts and mats that's pictures and the printing process of the day six hundred sixty eight dollars tips on railroads and hotels a thousand twenty that's thirteen grand and tips printing addresses and mailing $285,

stenographic and secretarial service, $1,500, telegrams Western Union, 155, telephone, long distance, $2,276. The only thing he spent more on the phone was on food. Postage, 1404, luggage, 352, dressing room attendance and help $780 capes and tailoring

$358 oh bonus to athletes and help $3357 remember he gave Rogers a $1,500 bonus and then entertaining publicity, gifts, promotion, and public relations $5,853. So that was how he, but still, he would have ended up, he's writing off everything because he has no home. He lives in hotels.

He writes off all of his meals, all of his phone calls. So he still came out $30,000 dollars ahead and paid tax on that. Where do all of us have money go? And that's one year. We're talking in today's money. That's one year. We're talking in today's money. and in the 1950s he made millions.

Anyway, you remember you saw Queen of the Ring, that outstanding silver screen motion picture that I was involved in, Brian, and Al Haft was played by your friend and mine, old Martin Cove that was in the karate fella. The biter. The biter, he's a very nice man. I'm sure he apologized, genuinely and meant it.

just he was hungry. You know, you're sitting there signing autographs all day. You get peckish. But anyway, he played Al Haft. I have a letter here to Jack Feffer from the real Al Haft. Would you like to hear how the real Al Haft spoke? Yeah. On February 2nd, 1949. Dear friend Jack, your letter to hand yesterday, so I'm getting a few lines off to you this afternoon. Just talk to Sam Muchnick. He tells me that Thess and Gorgeous had a big house in St. Louis. Looks like the fans want spectacular shows and showmen. The old days of wrestling are out and looks like they will not return for a long time indeed.

Some things never change. He continues, yes, I think you are right about selling Buddy as the nature boy. We will do that all along the line as it sure looks like the public. wants the old hunkus junkus. Now first, this the hunkus junkus he says, who the hell but he censors it? H-dash-dash-l.

Are we not to give them what they want? But he can get along on legitimate wrestling, but with the old hunkus junkus, we can no doubt do better as per the gorgeous line of action. So he's talking about a gimmick. Rogers or Fever has pitched

Al Haft who would later on be one of the most important people in Rogers' career. Rogers was based there. He booked there. He had his crew of talent in and out of there.

And this is Feffer having just pitched Al Haft on given Rogers the gimmick of the nature boy. And Al Haft is still like yeah, this fucking modern fucking hunkus

junkus. But listen to this, because this was also about when they were ready to reopen wrestling in Madison Square Garden. In early 1949, that's when we just talked about last week. They opened with Gorgeous George and it bombed. And then they came back at the end of the year with Rocca and they sold out and turned them away. Well, Haft is saying there's a lot of bad publicity coming out of New York.

Whenever they open the garden, it gets national. publicity and on wrestling it's not good. So with the old hocus pocus going into the garden, we can look for a lot of vaudeville stories out of New York. Every time that, again, there would try to be a revival in New York, the press would revive all of the gaga about it and it would do bad, you know, it would spread and do bad business in some of the other markets. And it was Fuffer, though, that was one of the people that got it going in the press with

that stuff. well but that was 15 years before that but he continues Joe Williams had a lousy story on the UP wire a couple of days back it gave wrestling a bad break guess I'll have to find a big Eastern trust to give them a lot of hell

this way it takes the mind off of us out here in the sticks we'll make every effort to go along with buddy around here and I know we'll get the job done so wow again Al Haft, an old timer, but he, he's knocking gorgeous George, but he would end up making a fortune with Nature Boy Buddy Rogers. All right, just have to shut that one off.

We are here. We are in the future. There's things happening. We're happening. And we have lots of happenings to talk about. There's things going on you don't know. We tried in good faith to do a simple program. And Brian, apparently, you're so unpopular with the, with, you know, with, you.

your local authorities there and the city of the, the borough of the town of theville of New Jersey that you live in, that they sent, I've got people in my walls, but you had people in your, in your earth, and they dug through your gas line, and they have exposed poisonous gas to you and your entire family,

and you had to be evacuated from your, from your home, mid-show, from your place of living. Yeah. In the middle of the show. show. They started knocking on the door. No, we, I had told you before we started recording that there may be noise because I don't know who they are, but there are some guys out there, the neighbor's house and my house,

like they're digging up some kind of line by the street. Did they have those, those kerchiefs over their faces so you couldn't see who they were? No, but they didn't have anything identifying them. There was someone here the other day spray painting various areas. We all notice them because if anyone comes to this neighborhood, but everyone notices. Especially if they're spray paint in the fucking ground. They're doing graffiti on the ground. I don't know if this is real or if this guy's just tagging the place.

So these guys are doing their thing. And I said to you, I don't know if there's going to be noise. There are guys out there working. I don't know what they're doing. You know, I hate to start complaining about noise now. And then the next noise was the cop banging on my door saying, is anyone else here? I said, yeah, my other family members here. All right, can you all please go out the back and come around the side of the house?

I'm like, what's going on? With your hands up? I just see gas, gas spraying into the air. You can see it? You can see it. It's like, it's like a mist. It was like a mist of noxious fumes. So we all got out of here.

It was fucking humid and hot. Again, mid-show. I grabbed my wallet and everything, thank God. And we had to wait there. They had to call in. What did you think it was a diversion? It's a heist movie. And while you're out in the yard,

they're going to come. me to knock or knock your house over? I'm prepared for anything. And eventually they let me come get my car while all of a sudden fire trucks from all sorts of places and PS ENG, the electric company were here. It was Comcast, by the way.

Some fucking unit of contractors because they don't work for Comcast, some unit of contractors that Comcast somehow found by the side of the railroad came out here and started just digging up shit and hit a fucking gas line. So yeah, so they'd the block off the street, I was the only person for all able to get my car. The cop had to escort me to get my car.

And I'm thinking, all right, you know, he wants to make sure I'm not going to, you know, burglarize myself or something. And he says, I have to escort you in case you pass out. I was like, oh shit. I better hurry up. What about him? Are you, is it like a count of bill of buddies? You're responsible for him? If he fucking teeters over, you got to drag this giant cop out of your yard?

Maybe they have special oxygen training. I really don't know. He seemed very confident in his abilities to survive. Was he doing a special breathing technique? It was a pain in the ass. And then, you know, later on, all of a sudden there's all sorts of crews here, and they clear us to go back in the house. Then they have to turn off the gas house by house on the entire street.

And then they fix whatever they have to fix. And then they have to turn the gas on house by house. And they have to check the water heaters, house by house. Biggest pain in the ass. I was like, hey, man, who's going to take care of the fucking holes they were digging up in my fucking yard. And he goes, well, I just got here. It's dark.

I can't really see. I don't know. Yeah, I'm like, all right, they're trying to wash their hands of it. They're washing their hands of it. Besides the fact he's there to fix a poisonous gas line, but he says it's dark and I can't see. Yeah.

The fuck. So I have to deal with this later on, but, uh, we're all live. We're all safe. And the only noxious fumes will be our wrestling talk. Well, I don't know about that. You may have, Are you feeling lightheaded? You feeling dizzy?

It's awful tight in here, you know. Oh, man. Kevin Sullivan used to do that to me all the time, and he knew I was on planes. If he'd be sitting next to me, I'd be trying to read my magazine, and he'd tap me on his shoulders. I'd look up, his forehead would be against mine.

Awful tight in here, isn't it? Anyhow, we're glad that you're back in your home there and hope, and do you have any of the monitors where it goes off, if you got carbon monoxide or carbon tetrachloride or whatever the fuck it is. Yeah, we have all sorts of shit to, you know, if anything was bad in the house, we would, and now we know the path to go to get out. Luckily, this is a nice, nice fire drill here. Move slowly and in single foul fashion.

Go down, come around the side, go around, find the police car. Around the pool next to the tennis court. It was nice. All the other neighbors came out. Everyone got evacuate. It wasn't just us. They had to evacuate everyone. Oh, so everybody got a chance.

to catch up in the middle of the street. It was like a barbecue, but there was no barbecue, because if you lit a barbecue, it would explode. So, yeah, it was just great. It was a wonderful, like, block party of sorts. There were lights, lots of lights. Cold marshmallows. Nope, couldn't do that.

That would have been a problem. No cold marshmallows. Just stand there and eat marshmallows. These contractors are sitting by the side of the road. Like, you could tell they have no idea what's going on. They know they caused this. They know they did this. And they know they just have to sit there and wait

for who knows what. Well, now, what type of punitive repercussions are you going to try to inflict on these people? Because I know you're a vindictive. Evil, evil man. In what fashion, have you found the corporate entity yet that you can sue and or harassing? My thing is, if someone jumps in front of you

and fucks up your agenda, there has to be some sort of, you have to fix that. Yes, there's got to be some kind of compensation. If you interfere with my day, my day is, very valuable. Some kind of day of reckoning. You can't just impede someone's forward progress either literally or figuratively in a free

country. They're in the pursuit of their business. They're in the pursuit of living their life and suddenly you throw a wrench into the spanner into the mix, as they say across the pond. I was literally recording something that people all around the world will be listening to and some guys

I don't know where these bozos came from cut a fucking gas line. I don't even know what they're doing. That's what I found that there were Comcast I'm like, oh, are they with the energy company? Like, what are they working on? What are the chances that both you and I, in the space of just a couple of months, two people out of a country of 350 million

that are associated with in this fashion would have a bunch of fucking morons digging trenches and ditches in their goddamn yard and just in the space of a short period of time? Ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I did say to the cop who walked me back to make sure I didn't pass out.

I said, who do I sue? And I just wanted to hear what he would say. And he's like, oh, I can't answer that. I can't answer that. Obviously, you know, a lot of emotional distress and a lot of, you know, this ruined your world. He's telling me everything I would think. I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. You know anybody? No, it's, uh, well, we know somebody. We know somebody. He's very, goddam. You know, does he have time to do anything else for anybody else? He's doing all these things for us.

Well, once again, Stephen P. 87750, Steve, get even with Stephen new law office.com. But Jim, if you've been, if you've been gassed, if you, if you're an innocent victim of poisonous gas in your own home, courtesy of the cable company, call Stephen Pino. Well, before we go on with what we were trying to go on and on about,

before we were interrupted, now there's a new, a new wrinkle in this, in this wide world of wrestling, Brian. we have just been talking about earlier in the show the very first experimental television broadcasts of pro wrestling in the United States in 1940 to where the technology existed

that they were doing it, but it just nobody could see it because they didn't have the screens. 85 years later, every son of a bitch in this country has four or five screens and now they're going to be broadcasting the big wrestling shows on a technology that or a service that technically doesn't even exist yet. The WWE is now going to be on a service that ES,

the premium live events, paper views, as we say, are not going to be on the cock. They're going to be on a service. that ESPN is launching later on sometime this month, and we're going to all have to subscribe to that to see these premium live events now. I just said it's getting harder to watch wrestling, both because the shows are harder to watch it,

because how are you supposed to find all these fucking things? This service does not even exist yet. Am I exaggerating about this? Well, this is a service ESPN will be launching, and like anyone who knows anything about launching new platforms and new formats of home entertainment, wrestling fans are usually the people you can count on to be there, and ESPN is banking on WWE bringing people into their service for a very high price, $299.99 a month. It's a lot more than Peacock, it's a lot more than WWE Network, a lot more than Netflix, a lot more

than Netflix. I think it's maybe all three of those combined, actually. And I have a headline here from the Wall Street Journal. Disney paying $1.6 billion for WWE rights. ESPN Unit will stream WrestleMania and other major offerings for five years. Disney's ESPN and TKO Group's World Wrestling Entertainment have reached a more than $1.6 billion. dollar agreement that will give the sports media company exclusive rights to many of of wwee's high-profile events. The five-year deal, which will begin in 2026, includes the U.S. streaming rights to major events, including WrestleMania and SummerSlam, ESPN, will pay $325 million a year for the rights, according to people familiar with the matter. That is a significant

increase from WWE's current five-year deal with Peacock, which was valued at 900 million, according to people familiar with the pact. The new agreement with ESPN follows a 10-year deal that WWE struck with Netflix last year for its weekly show Raw valued at more than $5 billion. Raw has become a solid performer for the streamer. The events will be available on ESPN's new streamer, service, which is slated to debut this fall, at a price tag of $29.99 a month. Under the deal, select coverage will be simulcast on ESPN's cable channels.

So why don't we stop there? Yes, please do. What would you like to break down about the fact that, again, they're making billions and billions of dollars, How many different things do we have to find and follow to see all this shit? And you said something wrong, Brian. It's $2,99 a month, but I saw if you sign up for the whole year, it's only $300. Oh, what a great deal. But here's the thing, and I'll let you say what you was going to say,

but people were mad at me when I was trying to order the pay-per-view, like God intended. Paperview television, big events. cable remote easy to do whatever the fuck you're paying $60 a month well actually it's 50 i think but you're paying $50 a month when you can stream it on this and that and the other thing why are you wasting all that money you're just crazy because normally you could see all the goddamn wrestling TV shows on television which even if even if you're paying for TV You've got a 400 fucking cable channels, so how much are you really paying for TBS? But you, then you buy one pay-per-view once a month, and you get to fast forward and rewind and

DVR it's and do all the things, and it's easy to watch, and you don't have to fuck with the streaming. And my time is valuable to me, and if I can save an hour searching through the goddamn endless travel logs and advertisements and entrances, then it's worth the 50 bucks. But now, do we still need Netflix, Brian? We're going to need Netflix for Raw. Well, I still have Netflix for other things beyond wrestling,

but yeah, Raw will be there for 10 years. Well, see, that's the thing is, I'm starting, this is starting to be, I would not have Netflix if it wasn't, raw wasn't on it. I would not have this goddamn thing that I'm apparently going to have if the pay-per-views weren't on it. How many different things are we going to have to $20 and $30 ourselves to death on to see all this shit?

Well, see, that's the thing that, to me, is most interesting. You know, WWA getting a big deal with someone trying to make it in streaming. That's not a surprise. That's where you're going to get the money nowadays. But the idea that ESPN is launching the service at $30 a month, which is significantly more than just about every streaming service now or in the past. Not that there aren't some that are above that, but by and large, nothing major. The plan is wrestling fans have gotten used to streaming their pay-per-view events.

Paperview's dead. Not even just because, like, no one does it. Like, literally, in-demand is dead. Some listeners sent over emails they got saying, like, you know, the way to get pay-per-view now is go to ppv.com. Or go to this. Stream it. I mean, even the pay-per-view companies are saying stream it. Because Indemans dead.

But they've trained everyone to stream. They've trained everyone for a range of payment between $9.99 and, you know, let's say 20-something. And now it's going to be more than that. I don't know if people are going to want the other content. According to this, ESPN will launch its new previously announced direct-to-consumer streaming service. Thursday, August 21st, so they've moved it up, bringing the full suite of ESPN networks and services

within an enhanced ESPN app with new personalized features and functionality direct to fans. What the fuck does that mean? This coincides with the start of college football and NFL seasons, U.S. Open Tennis, international soccer, women's college soccer, volleyball, field hockey, and more.

No disc golf, it doesn't say. There is not one goddamn thing of those things that I would watch even if it was on free television. And ESPN lost baseball. With the start of the, or they gave up on baseball, however you want to put it, with the start of the WNBA playoffs, PLL playoffs, and NBA and NBA and NHL seasons, as well as the UFC and WWE events just around the corner. So again, ESPN is banking on wrestling fans, needing to see this content and being willing to pay $30 a month.

Because you may not want to watch field hockey or volleyball or college athletics or any of these. Is there curling? Do they have curling? I don't know. The Pat McAfee Show, they have that. No, that's swerving. I'm talking about curling. So now, WWE has multi-year, multi-I shouldn't say multi-billions, even though one of them, I guess, was.

But these multi-year deals with both NBC, Netflix, because NBC owns USA Network and that's where Smackdown is, Netflix and Disney with ESPN. So that's ABC Networks too. Again, they're trying to get every bit of it. I mean, this is all... Well, now, wait a minute.

I'm not saying we can't enjoy it and it won't be good things, but this is the biggest money grab in wrestling history and it'll probably continue for a good period of time, but it's... What about Peacock? The poor old... The cock, the lonely spare cock at the wedding, is, there's, there's a bunch of stuff on there.

Is that transferring over to this ESPN thing? Well, I see some reporting here from Brandon Thurston of WrestleManiaomics. Some details that might not be elsewhere. The New Deal does not include library rights. So the archive, they won't have that. Again, I don't know if that means all the archive or just not the pay-per-view archive. because if they're going to have all the pay-per-views, is it just, here's the current batch? Or, you know, typically you go to the, it used to be in the network now, Peacock, and it's like season,

WrestleMania, season seven, episode one. WrestleMania, season eight, episode one. I don't know how that's going to work, but they apparently do not have the catalog, which is now something, another thing, WWE could try to sell to someone. And maybe it'll be Peacock. hey, you'll lose the pay-per-views, but we'll give you the catalog. Who knows? Okay, and again, I hate the streaming television.

But even for people who like the streaming television, isn't that going to be a lot of time and effort and work and money to buy all of the streamings that would be needed to see all of the shit that they would have to spend time to figure out where it was and what it was on and when it was on and find it and watch it? It's going to be a lot of work. And they're going to use ESPN to boost this, Brandon Thurston has here.

ESPN will have pre and post premium live event shows, so the post game show. That's why they got rid of the media scrum, right before Brock Lesnar comes back and everything. They get rid of the media scrum, you know, which even their media scrums were kind of softballish, but every now and then a question got by. Also, Sports Center expected to be broadcast

at some premium live event locations. So again, what that means is that they're going to use, their cable channel to sell nonstop WWE pay-per-view events because they need people to buy those events and get their subscription. It's going to be over the top of noxious.

And softball coverage. ESPN has always had softball coverage at WWE. This is now, there is not going to be any coverage. It's literally just going to be, you know, repeating their press releases live on the air. No, but I'm old enough, Sunny, to remember when there was a time where ESP and it's like wrestling, why would we talk about wrestling?

And then they ended up with Vern's show on on Tuesday afternoons or whatever, and then all these years later, wrestling is the fucking lynchpin of their organization. It is a famous story in the ESPN oral history. Like they had a meeting one day, and one of the executives says, and we have a chance to get this wrestling show, and we can have it on, we have a whatever they're saying about it, And they have this person and that person, and they got Sergeant Slaughter. And one of the executives was like, wait, they got slaughter?

And everyone stopped and looked at him. But yeah, ESPN for years had Vernegana show, had Legends of World Class, had Global Wrestling Federation. I think those are the big three that were on ESPN. ESPN classic. When they were, here's the thing, the world class shows they aired were like fucking three years old. I was in Charlotte and been living there for a couple years when I was on TV with the

midnight every afternoon. It was just, they never understood how to run a wrestling show on a regular basis, brand new that people wanted to see. But no, they could air those shows, but no actual, healthy, current, modern promotion could get on it. I was fascinated by those shows because it was like nothing I'd ever seen before, all the screaming fans. And then I'm like, is that Rick Rood with a smaller perm?

And then that was the first time I saw Percy Pringle. And then I'm like, are they in a barn? Because I saw that sidewalk. I was like, what is this? They look great. But at ESPN in the WWE business big time, this is 1.6 times an increase over the peacock deal, which again was $900 million.

Again, what are your thoughts on WWE doing this on the price tag? Do you think the price tag is too much? Even though you're willing to pay $50 a month, had they trained their general audience that that's too much monthly for wrestling pay-per-views. I think you're going to naturally lose the least dedicated people or the least motivated people or however you want to describe it.

Well, here's another thing they want to pay 30 bucks a month for when they've been getting it for less. And that was my original problem with the WWE network. When they went from WrestleMania being a $50 pay-per-view to $9.99 a month, you get everything. I said, well, they've just devalued everything that anybody could do. Because if you're used to getting big shows for a really cheap price and then anything substantial comes along, they get $5 a month may not be bad, but also it's just so much to keep track of.

And especially the older viewers are already predisposed to not like this shit because it's phony compared to what they were used to. And now they say that, you know, the streaming audience is primarily younger, so they're going for younger people, but they're going to lose a lot of older people in the process, and a lot of the older people is the ones that have some money. So it's just, I think, and the price tags that they're getting, it's just ridiculous.

amounts of money. And I don't even know, I don't even know why that anyone would think that anything is worth a billion dollars over five years, except a cure for cancer. But otherwise, you know, bless their little pepicking hearts for getting all this money. But I'm glad that I am closer to the end of having to watch any of this stuff than I am the beginning to paraphrase what they say sometimes these days. My career on watching wrestling is a whole lot closer to the end that it is the start, so I don't care what they do.

But it's some goddamn complicated, expensive shit anymore. Just a trip up the road to Bristol. Hopefully the Merritt Parkway is clear. They can get out there nice and easy. That's right, some kind of Connecticut mafia. That's right. ESPN, the worldwide leader in 7th. sexual harassment.

That's going to be a great partnership here. Seriously, the most obnoxious, unbearable programming. I hate ESPN's broadcast. I used to love them. It's just gone down. That's the thing is I have not watched anything related to an ESPN network or broadcast or anything in so many years. I don't know what's even on it.

So I don't know what else they would have besides your brief description on this service. I don't occasionally I will see something because we have the Netflix now. If it's a documentary, I say, okay, it's right in front of me. But I could certainly do without it. I don't ever watch Peacock except for whatever they're doing with the WW. I don't know. What's the other thing that somebody's on?

We got somehow. We got something else. A.W is on Max or HBO Max. I think Stacey got the HBO Max, but I don't, I watch it on TBS the way that it's supposed to be done or TNT or whatever they're on. So who's got, don't have time to watch goddamn television, much less 18 million forms of television. All right. We wish them all well in their future endeavors, don't we, Brian? I see here, Nick Kahn's announcing a new program for premium live events.

if you're willing to pay double what someone else paid, you can kick them out of their seat and take their seat. It's the new pay double, live like a king program from WWE. Jesus. Everything's a money grab. And again, there may be stuff we really like, but it's over the top from the commercials, in the middle of the shows,

from the commercials on the mat, the commercials on the tables, this ESPN stuff is going to be, again, there's never going to be serious coverage, not like there has been. But boy, we'll see what happens. Lots of money in the wrestling business, as they say.

You know, how do these people, Brian, how do they sleep at night? Probably with a pillow. No, I'm thinking that these people need propofal to sleep at night. Their consciences have got to be that guilty that they're just,

they're just swindling and grifting and reach it in people's pockets. I don't know how they sleep at night. They wouldn't even be able to get a good night's sleep because they're guilty conscience if they were on a helix mattress. That's how miserable these people are. But everybody else that doesn't have a guilty conscience,

they can get a wonderful night's sleep on a helix sleep mattress. Brian, have you ever, for example, been laying there thinking, holy mackerel boy, the shit that I did today, somebody's going to find out about it. there I'm going to go to hell. I should be ashamed to myself. You probably get that feeling once or twice a week. Only after we record.

Well, see, there once or twice a week. So what you need to do to wash that away from you is you need to get the Helic sleep mattress because they, if you like to sleep on your side or your back, whatever position, they got a mattress for you. And if you sleep hot or cold at night, they got a mattress for you. So why shouldn't they have a mattress? mattress for you if you've got a guilty conscience.

The special guilty conscience, Helix Sleep mattress, you lay down on that and instantly, it doesn't matter what you've done. I understand South American dictators sleep like babies on this thing. It's amazing. So go out and as a matter of fact, commit some, if not crimes, at least sins against humanity. And then go to helixleep.com and get one of these wonderful guilty conscience-era mattresses and you will sleep the sleep of the angels. But if you're just a regular person, they got stuff for you too. Brian, of course, we've talked about it many times. The Helix

mattresses, they've got all natural ingredients. They don't have asbestos and sawdust and barbed wire in them like some of the other major mattress organizations. I understand there's been a big run on broken glass amongst the indie wrestler mattress companies. Again, we can't speak. to what they do. We can speak to what you can get from Helix. Great mattresses. None of these items that you would find in an indie wrestling show, just great mattresses from Helix. Yeah, you know, a lot of indie wrestlers, you know, when they end up flat of their backs in bodycast, they switch to mattress manufacturing. You don't want that. Whether you got snoring or back pain or sleep apnea or have trouble sleeping through the night or just sweating like a hooker in St. Mark's Cathedral,

you can find something to help you at helixleep.com. And right now, Brian, you know, there's a big holiday coming up. Labor Day, that's a day that nobody works. And you can get early access to the Labor Day sale. That's what they're calling it right now. The Labor Day sale early access where there's 20% off sidewide, whatever mattress you want, whatever kind, whatever shape, whatever. Well, I don't really know they come in.

different colors, but you know what I mean. They got different colored sheets. You can get those. But Labor Day, early access, and through August 14th, 20% offsidewide, at Helixleep.com slash JCE. Helixleep.com slash JCE. It'll be delivered to your door.

You pop it there onto your bed frame or other surface. some people like to put them in a closet. I don't know why. We don't ask questions. I go along for a lot of the installations, Brian. Did you know that? A lot of times when they bring the He likes mattress. No, that is absolutely not true. Ladies and gentlemen,

a professional delivery, a professional mattress, a wonderful experience watching it unfurl right in front of you. Yes, yes, that's a wonderful the unfurling process is a wonderful thing to watch. That's why I go along every once in a while. Some people are safe.

put it in the closet and I go, why would you want the mattress in the closet? But then I see the unruly state of their children and I think, well, no wonder. But anyway. Great match. Well, as we were saying, a great mattress, we love them here in my house.

We all have them. You will love them too. Helix sleep. You made a massive stack of them and just put all your children against the wall and stack the mattresses in front of them so you and Suzanne could go out for a night without having to get a babysitter one time, didn't you?

That isn't what we, have ever done ever, never. And we don't suggest anyone else do it. Use your mattresses for sleep. And before this goes too much further off the rails, Jim, what's that promo code with that wonderful deal for the listeners? Yes, that's 20% offsidewide through August 14th. If you go to helixleep.com slash JCE.

All right. Well, this remains your show. Oh, I forgot about that. I was so excited that we got finished with that. that information. We were going back some more written material that we got from the

Fever files and I got had a couple of things that were that tickled me from letters from Willie Gilsenberg and one of them is a copy of a letter from

Willie Gilsenberg to Vince McMahon Sr. This ended up in Fephy's files because he was given a copy. And it starts with dear, this is March 20th, 1960. So this is the period of time, Brian,

where Vince McMahon's television program out of Washington has gotten another foothold in New York and he has been supplying talent to Madison Square Garden for some time before, that maybe a year, year and a half or whatever, since the last time Fever was ousted, right? But now

there's a change, the machinations behind the scenes. Pedro Martinez, who had bought into the Manhattan booking office, had pulled out, he said he got screwed, he went back to Buffalo. McMan had a booking agency supplying talent, but so did Coliquariani, who was trying to still because he was behind Raka, so he was still trying to be the force behind wrestling in the garden. And then Fever came in again.

And that's where Fever not only brought in Ricky Starr and brought back the Fargoes, but he brought in the amazing Zuma, the mighty Zuma, the little Raca rip-off that we've talked about. that the only time this guy ever drew money in his life was in Madison Square Garden and he and Raca against each other because of the interest in Raka and a guy doing Raka stuff, the gimmick clash, they sold out three times. One of them was, hold on here. one of them was 21,890 people with a gate of $64,125. One of them was $21,950 people with $64,680.

And again, $64,000 in 1960 is the equivalent of almost $700,000 in today's money. and this was when the garden was running sometimes more often than once a month. But so right at this point with these offices jockeying for power, Willie Gilsenberg is still, who's a longtime confidant of Vince Sr. But also was close to Feffer for years and years, right? and they all did business. So Gilsenberg writes a letter to Vince McMahon Sr. And he says,

Dear Vince, the late Georgian Cohan is the author of the following. The theater is illusion. And once you destroy the illusion, you destroy the theater. And apparently what they had done is Pampiro Furpo was booked into the territory, was booked into Willie Gilsenberg's Newark shows that he promoted. But on another town in the territory, he's writing to Vince to complain that Furpo had to do a job for Arnold Scolin.

Because listen to this. I write this, the above quote, because of the fact that Pampero Furpo was placed right in the center of the ring to look up into the sun by Arnold Scoland in capital letter. He says, it's really hard to believe this comes under the heading of an error. Just how did this happen? Could it be due to me saying over TV if you think Bruno Samertino is strong? Just watch Furpo here next Thursday night. There certainly could have been another way to make up time. Babe and I have really, that was his partner in promotion,

Babe and I have really put some money into the business since October, plus an added amount of woes for me to carry due to babe's illness. Furpo, a new face who is sure to draw a satisfactory crowd to the Newark Armory on April 2nd certainly wasn't deserving of this in advance of this type promotion. Perhaps I am wrong and everyone else associated correct, but I still must refer to the great and late George M. Cohen's characterization of illusion. Please let's try and figure something for Thursday that will place

Furpo in a similar category to Zuma prior to the Little Fellow's matches with Raca. It can be done. The Little Fellow? Yes. So basically they said, he's saying, you brought this guy in here and you put him over everybody and he drew money with Raka, but we bring Furpo in. I've got him in a big match at my town and you have him do a job to Arnold Skoll and what is the matter with you people?

And that would have been Furpos dream to work with Raka. You know, it's interesting because we're talking 1960, so we're talking before Vince Sr. and Kohler really get down and dirty together before that breaks apart. This is the beginning of the period of time where Bruno becomes a draw, Bruno gets blacklisted. Yeah. And then becomes a bigger draw in other places,

and Vince Senior needs him post-Raca. Was Skolland already considered office, or was he office in 1960? No. And the way that it's phrased to make up time, I'm thinking that there was somehow there was a substitution or somebody was running late or they changed something up and say, oh, well, let's go. Let's put the baby face over. Ignoring the fact that at that point in time, the difference between Arnold Schollin, who was, and I loved Arnie when I knew him 35 years after this. But at the time, he was doing the opening match in the garden. if he was on the garden cart.

He was, you know, he was just a preliminary guy. He may have at that point, they may have, you know, started asking him to, you know, do some of the other towns or, you know, White Plains became his building long after that, but maybe he was starting to try to get an interest in promoting some spot shows or whatever, but I would doubt it even that early. It's just based on what he's saying here, again, trying to read between the lines, if Willie Gilsimer was he actually on TV and said hey come out to Newark this week and see Furpo he's just as strong as Bruno yes and then they sent and then they sent

Skolland to squash him no they on another show on another show they had put in the area they had put Furpo over Skowler or Skolland over Furpo and he's but as seen news traveled it was in the same market and that's what he's he's like Like, what the fuck? We've got him in a big featured spot in Newark. And on this other show, you put him in the ring with Skolin and put Skolin over. They were very touchy about their towns. And again, it's an interesting insight into that relationship.

Willie Gilsenberg would be a partner in WWWF until he died in, what, 77? Yeah. Well, he was the president for figurehead president, for years and years. But he was still the promote. I mean, he had all these towns in New Jersey. You know, Vince Senior. was a DC guy, not a New York guy. And if he wanted to control the garden, and he did,

he needed towns around the garden. And Willie Gillsenberg was the key to getting New Jersey. Yeah, Gillesenberg. Patterson, Newark. I mean, he had every town in New Jersey up here. And he went back with boxing and wrestling way before Vince Sr. Had even, you know, he went back to Jess McMahon.

He was the connection to Jess McMahon, actually, because of the boxing act. So at any rate, that was a letter, but then here is a letter from Willie Gilsenberg to Jack Pfeffer, which is again in the same time, May 28, 1960, where I believe at that point I'm looking at these results,

Pfeffer was about to get kicked out again, I believe, because the Fargoes are there during this time, even sunny, but they would be leaving soon and Zuma would be moved down. Oh, I think Fephyr was still there because the rebel, Mario Galento was the rebel later on in 1960. But nevertheless, the tensions of all of these people trying to swerve each other out of the way.

This is from Gilsenberg to Fepfer. Dear Jack, in marking Furpo's name and red pencil on the ad you sent me, one would think that I was working against a friend of mine. I think it was Willie Gilsenberg. He's speaking of himself in the third person. I think it was Willie Gilsenberg who took Mr. Furpo and put him on top in Newark Armory with Raca and a friend of mine, Jack Pfeffer,

who refused to say a kind word for this same furpo. So again, Gilsenberg's loving Pampiro Furpo, and he's not getting any support. But Babe wrote me and told me that you were on a couple of times this past week to plug Furpo in the Garden Show. This brings me back to Jack Pfeffer, speaking to Jack Pfeffer, who I now think, and I hope I am wrong, is out to hurt our Newark promotions and also out to do the same to Vince McMahon because he brought Buddy Rogers into the territory. So apparently a lot of this problem, Pfeffer by this time, Rogers had years before cut loose from him, but Pfeffer never forgot it and hated Buddy Rogers. That's why he gave the Fargo's kind of a tag team buddy Rogers gimmick.

He was always trying to undermine Rogers wherever he went. And so now Vince Sr. has brought Rogers in. He's starting to get over. Fever doesn't want to have any to do with him. Gilsenberg is the one that's been there through all of these people, is trying to, you know, get along with everybody, right? He's the one who's actually known Rogers, is the second longest or maybe even the longest next to Fever because he was promoting

New Jersey towns when Buddy broke in. Yeah, well, listen to what he says next. I don't particularly care for Buddy Rogers. I must admit, however, he is a great spot performer, meaning high spots. And as such, I'm interested in Rogers or any wrestler who can draw in big barns like the armories we promote it. Jack, if you do a blessed thing wrong to Vince McMillard. man by way of Colquariani, you will have to cross me off your list.

I don't care to repeat all the happenings before you got into the territory because there isn't a thing I can say that you do not know. There were many roadblocks at that time, and if I were vince, they would return before you could say Pampero Furpo. And that's simply because your feelings against Rogers are so tremendous that you fail to see that you are deliberately hurting fellows like Will. Willie and Babe, him and his partner, also Vince and Phil Zaco, with your picky-eune maneuverings. With your wife?

Jack, I don't. Picky-Ewn maneuverings. Small-time bullshit. Jack, I don't think there ever was a friend you ever made in wrestling with the guts of a Willie Gillsenberg in your corner. Why lose that kind of a pal? Do you think I'm envious of you being able to place four men on a garden show? I'm very happy for you, and that's what my aim was for the past.

couple of years to see that you can come into the territory and become a part of it. I didn't think you would place yourself in a position of appearing as one who would bite the hand that feeds him. Jack, all of your gloating wouldn't mean a thing if Buddy Rogers, Eddie Graham, and this is the way it's written, and the two colored boys told Cola and Walter Johnston and Prince Charles to go and blank themselves. Who knows that better than you? So instead of gloating, I think you would be much wiser to be satisfied to go along without hurting others. As for the top bout in the garden, my opinion is that it is a poor bout at this time.

The underneath is well loaded, but even that could be improved by pairing the colored boys as a team against either the Fargoes or Rogers and Graham. But that's only my opinion. I hope I'm wrong and there's a good house in Madison Square Garden, if only for the reason that a good house is helpful to the business. warmest regards gilly that is fascinating weird question to start with Prince Charles I mean is he just referring to

you know the current king because he was a boy at that time or is there no I thought Walter and Prince Charles I think is Walter and Charles Johnston the garden promoters the Johnston family and their longest running wrestling advisor had been Col Aquariani because he had the key to Raca.

Yeah. So he had to, and, you know, at various points, he would be aligned with different people based on the way the wind was blowing. What do you think of apparently Pfeffer not being a fan of Pamparo Furpo? It almost seems like he'd be right down, right down his alley, the exact kind of person that Well, I don't know what the, the, I'm going back here to hold on to look at the, oh, apparently, when, first, when. When Pfeffer would mark things in red pencil on ads or programs he got,

that meant he was wanting whoever that he was sending that to, look at what they're doing to me. They're double-crossing me. So it may have been in some previous conversation that, you know, I don't know that Pfeffer was pissed at FERPA. Pfeffer was probably pissed at Furpo was on Gilsenberg's card at the same time as something else or whatever. Did you ever hear anything about the relationship

if there was any between Jackie Fargo and Buddy Rogers? Like if they ran into each other, what was that conversation like? Well, here's the thing. At one point, Fargo was quoted when they asked him about how much did Buddy Rogers influence you? Well, I never saw him. But obviously, that was the influence.

And Jackie, especially, I don't think, Don just took the name of the gimmick like he took all the names and gimmicks. But Jackie, they took the strut. But Jackie more consciously was a buddy Rogers disciple in terms of even calling everybody Pally in a locker room or shit like that. And not only the strut, but the hair and some of the robes and especially his work as a heel. he was a big influence because he was an influence on you know on all of the fucking boys of that generation like Flair was and in Michaels and etc

but I think of the Fargo's Don he had the better body and he did the strut but he didn't keep the blonde hair he didn't keep that throughout his life Jackie did I think Jackie was more of a a southern version of a nature boy buddy Rogers and especially with the baby face promo appeal that he had. He didn't get a chance to do a lot of heel promos,

Jackie, after 61 or 62, but the genuineness of the, and a lot of the old Rogers' tricks and high spots and, you know, et cetera. So he was definitely influenced. Are you surprised Willie Gilsenberg put all of that into a letter in 1960 as a wrestling promoter? Well, no, because that's what they do. did then when they were writing to each other personally.

The letters are amazing with if, and you can, you can kind of get an idea, but still it would be a forensic job of years to be able to put all of these files there at Notre Dame and all the letters together and connect all the dots. It would be, I don't know if it can ever be done,

to determine exactly who, who was on the ends and outs with who at what time and why, all through those decades. Anywho, here, you want to close up with one about your favorite Pinky George? I just mentioned him the other day. That's right. When I said, we'll play guest the letter writer. You see, well, now there's not going to be somebody like Pinky George, right? And no, no, no. But this one I'll tell you is ahead of time. Because you will remember from the NWA history that Pinky George is the one who got everybody together in 1948 and the original, what was it, six promoters or seven,

they signed the NWA charter, right? So technically, Pinky George started it. And then... He was the first president, right? He was the first president. And then after a few years, you know, Sam Munchnik and St. Louis and... I know a lot of people are saying,

who's Pinky George? He was the promoter in, God damn, what was this? Help me, his main town. Was he Kansas City at that time? Okay, he was Kansas City at that time. And Sam Muchnik was St. Louis. And later on, obviously,

Kansas City would change hands, but St. Louis would remain with Sam Muchnick until he retired. they were always different offices, but they had some of the same owners, operators, bookers, etc. Throughout the years. And now, to be fair, Sam Muchnick has been long-lawed as, you know, like the last of the old-time fair promoters that paid the boys fairly and was level-headed and ran the wrestling dynasty of St. Louis. it was one of the strongest markets in North America. His whole 40 years he was in business, blah, blah, blah.

And let me just make a correction because you and I both have the same brain fart and now I see this. I'm like, oh, yeah, of course. He was the promoter in Des Moines. Des Moines, that's why I couldn't. God damn, I wasn't going to say Kansas City, but you talked me into it. But nevertheless, Des Moines, Iowa, Iowa and Kansas, two centers of the heartland.

But anyway, so as much as people said good things about Sam Muchdick in a wrestling business, you're bound to make some enemies, right? By the end of the 1950s, Pinky George had resigned from the National Wrestling Alliance and was involved in testifying or giving testimony at least and background in the antitrust suit that the government had against National Wrestling Alliance. So this is a letter that Pinky George apparently wrote, typed out, and sent to all members of the alliance. And in 1959,

this is March, 1959, there were probably about 30, 35 or 40 of them, right, in the NWA at that period of time. He'd already fallen out with them by that point, too, right? Yes. A few years before that.

Yes. And that's why he wrote to all the members of the alliance. And at the top, it's written, Jack, I mailed you one at the Mel House and Noel House and the hotel in Columbus, regards Pinky.

And the title of it is how the National Wrestling Alliance became the Muchnik and Company Alliance. Gentlemen of the Alliance, in accepting my resignation from the NWA, Muchnick's letter closed with these famous lines. When I go to bed every night, I do so in good conscience. End of quote. Okay, let's review his conscience.

Before the trial here, the St. Louis and Kansas City territories merged. During the trial, Mr. Simpson, one of Sam's partners, appeared as a voluntary witness against the alliance and me. As promoter in Topeka, Sunny Myers was a close associate of Sam's. What a farce and sham. During a three-day recess of the trial. And now this is because, remember, Sunny Myers, testified for the government, did he not, as a voluntary witness?

I believe so. And he was and still would remain a figure in Kansas Pro Wrestling and Midwest Pro Wrestling for a while and became a member of the office. During a three-day recess of the trial, Mr. Conscience called a meeting in St. Louis with all of his St. Louis and K.C. partners. In this meeting, he said, I don't care about it. Pinky George, it's the alliance I want to say. Let him deny this. What alliance was he saving the Muchnik and Company alliance? It's ironic that Sam's KC partners are taking over towns I used to book. I bet Sam's conscience don't bother him one bit when he cuts up the booking money. The Muchnik Alliance is now booking four midget wrestlers recently stolen from Bert Ruby. Wow. That's just,

that's the goddamn greatest lot I've ever heard in a letter. I'm thinking, what did the fucking second story man break in at night and fucking put him in a bag? Sam and his employee Bobby Bruns were getting into hot water, so they picked a front man to act as the midget booker. One Mr. Craddock, who is long but associated with Gus Caras, the fact remains that they're being booked throughout the Muchnic Alliance territories. Ruby can sit in Detroit and be consoled by Sam's conscience. So basically he's mad because they had, they would always, and Lord Littlebrook did this in the 80s,

there was always one person in charge of book in the midgets, like there was one person in charge a book in the girls. And apparently they stole Bert Ruby's midgets. And by the way, Gus Caras, that's Kansas City. Yes, Gus Caras is Kansas City. Because I was, I was going to say, well, I'm having a brain fart. and where was Gus, but nevertheless. Not long ago, Bruns, who likes to play Secretary of State for Sam,

gave Orville Brown an ultimatum. This monopoly is trying to throw Brown out, put him out of the business he built. Again, how ironic. The first four people who agreed on the original alliance were Stecker, Clayton, Brown, and myself. It was Brown's insistence that brought Muchnik in. Stecker and Clayton have passed away.

I resigned one more to go. How soon it depends on Muchnik's conscience. Sam's conscience fades very quickly. Morris Siegel has been Sam's best booster. Yet Muchnick once had the gall to try and throw Siegel out. Why? Because Siegel, who was ill, failed to make a board of directors meeting. In the lobby of the hotel, the conscience one was shouting about throwing Morris out

until level-headed Mr. Avie calmed him down. Let him try to deny this. Maybe a little speech and few tears now are in order so all can be forgiven. You all remember the humiliation his former partner Martin Thess used to face. Oh, wow. That's Lou Thess's dad. Yes. And when originally Sam Mutchnick began his promotion in 1945,

Lou had the opposite office at his father, Martin was the promoter and the public president, and they ran opposition to each other for a few months or a few years and then joined together but didn't let the public know that the two wrestling clubs had joined. And that way they were still operating as two separate entities, and they would each do matches every other week. So for years there, the Kiel Auditorium ran weekly, drawing anywhere from five, six thousand people to sellouts. every week like nine months of the year and they take off the summer. But it was, you know, a rough go at first.

What turned the tide was when Muchnik was able to get Buddy Rogers to come to work for him. He got his first sellout. He started doing big business and it brought the Theses to the bargaining table. And that's another reason. And this was after Rogers had pissed Thess off in 1946 about Lewis. so that was another reason that Thess didn't care for Buddy. But anyway, says you all remember the humiliation Martin Thess used to face. Write an open meeting, mind you.

The old gentleman couldn't stomach anymore and got out like all Sam's partners do. Everyone knows why Lou Thess laid the load down and got out of St. Louis. Lou's letter from Australia gives you a light on Sam's conscience. Longson was left to face those little snipes. Bill is a nice guy, but I know it to be a fact that he gave Fred Kohler permission to recognize a U.S. champion.

When he realized others didn't like the idea and that he exceeded his authority, he pulled the rug from under Kohler. Why in good conscience? Didn't he admit it was his fault? Wow. Look at all the trouble that could have been avoided. When Fred Kohler made Vern Ganya

the U.S. champion on Chicago Network Television in the early 50s, he was a serious threat competition to the NWA world champion, Lou Thes, because of the television coverage he had,

people started thinking that Gagne was the champion instead of the NWA champion, and that's why Gagne only got a few shots and never after the early 50s. And that's the start of heat between Chicago not being a full NWA. member, et cetera, et cetera. That's why he had to become a promoter himself

to become world champion. It was never going to happen in the NWA. Yeah. Even though you could argue Luth... Vern Gagne was as deserving as... Certainly as deserving as Dick Hutton. Oh, good God. See, that was the thing.

If Thes dropped it to Hutton because Hutton could really beat him in a shoot. But the thing is, Gagne had been an NCAA champion and that water was never really tested. So... Ganya drew a lot more money as a pro than Dick Hut never did, to say the least. Anyway, continuing, what about the poor guy from Kansas, from Carson City? Sam gives him permission to hold a light heavyweight tournament to decide the NWA champion.

He had previously given the privilege to Mr. Luteroff, but because Mr. Luteroff was slow, Sam gave Mr. Walker the go-ahead sign. when Luteroff called to his attention that he had been given that right, Sam did a double take. So now the Carson City promoter who had his tournament and champion is without NWA recognition. Sam's territory and partnership with Kansas City territory and Canadian partners who are safe from the U.S. antitrust laws

now comprise an interlocking monopoly that has made the champion and championship their own personal property. All championship matches are held in either Canada or St. Louis. Now remember... You know what? That's not exactly wrong for that period of time. Yes, Toronto was a huge market in the 50s, and the NWA champion was... Yeah. Is this the most negative thing you've ever heard or seen about Sam Munchnik ever all at once?

Ever, ever. This is amazing. He says, who knows when and where these matches are made? You know when the Hutton O'Connor match was made? And remember they'd given the belt of Whipper Watson? With the presidency and Sam's hand of the power of the championship, he can whip anyone in line. As a matter of fact, it's a blackjack over every member's head. Many who are sick of the situation don't dare resign.

Wrestling is their business. As long as the situation exists, I'm going to shout from the rooftops and try to clean it up. Whether Sam wants to admit it or not capitalized, it was I who was. the father of the alliance. As a matter of fact, it was also incorporated here in Iowa with my lawyer, my wife, and I is the incorporators. The alliance was not

intended only for the benefit of one man or a small group. It was intended to be a cooperative for the benefit of the whole membership. If I can't clean it up, I'm going to the Justice Department. Someone has to. I don't know what Sam wants out of life.

He's a promoter. He gets a big NWA salary, a paid secretary, expenses for travel, he used to give us a lump sum financial statement. This he stopped last year. Why should he? He has the membership where he wants it and he has the champion in his pocket. I'd like to remind the president that all of us have made mistakes. All of us have said things we wish to take back. All of us sometime or another have blown our tops, but we are not the president. our actions are unofficial, his are official, and are supposed to represent the alliance.

For his mistakes, we can all go before the Justice Department. In closing, I would like to ask the president, how rich can you get with four little midgets? Why don't you give them back? Oh my God, what are they doing? Give him back. Give him burr, ruby, back his midgets. Oh, my God.

This letter, you said, is 59. So when did Fred Kohler take over his NWA president? Was it 60 or 61? I don't know off the top of my head, but one or the other of those. Right after this, right after this, wow. Yeah. And then, but then that fell by the wayside after a few years, and Muchnick was back in and stayed there for about another 10 years.

What ever happen to Mushnick's files? I don't know if you know that. I don't know what he had. I don't know. I don't remember Larry Madisonick saying anything from any of the interviews I heard with him over the years. Did they have anything in the office? I know that programs obviously and stuff. What about the files?

Here's what, well, I mean, I don't know what type of files on financial reports, individual shows how far back they went. I don't know what they had there. And I'm pretty sure that the partners, Pat O'Connor, didn't really care about preserving anything, neither did Bob Brown, Bob Geigle. But the bound set of programs that Muchnik had done from his first show, as an old newspaper man, he had, you know, he kept one copy of each program for each event, and then after a few years he would have them bound.

I have those because they ended up in Pat O'Connor's basement. And when he died, Harry White from St. Louis told his wife, Julie, I know somebody would want to buy those. What Larry Matazick said that he was broken up that they didn't keep, they probably threw him away, was the, they had, because Muchnik was a sports writer with the newspapers before he started promoting, so he treated it sports like in a variety of ways. They kept an information card on every wrestler and every show that they had done so they could pull for TV commentary or for writing in the program, this is the guy's win-loss record in St. Louis.

Here in St. Louis, Pat O'Connor beat this guy, drew this guy, lost it, whatever, all the wrestlers. They had all the statistics on, in card files. And that apparently no longer exists. Wow, the idea of Pinky George sent this to all the NWA members. Well, he did not intend to rejoin at that point, and he didn't. But God damn it, I'll tell you what, it's, you know, it's one thing to, you know,

mismanage the title or start a click and exclude some of the other promoters, but when you start stealing midgets from poor old Bert Ruby, that's just too much. You know, a lot of people talk about the chic and Dick the Bruiser in Detroit. They don't really talk about Bert Ruby's midgets as much as they probably should. they were the key they were the key to Detroit and I know we've thrown another name in but Bert Ruby before

the days of the sheik in the 60s and really before Jim Barnett took over there from what was it late 50s through 64 Bert Ruby and actually still he persisted through the 70s but he had been more of the owner of the territory the head man

but Bert Ruby was involved in promotion in Michigan, probably since I would think shortly after the death of Adam Weissmuller that we talked about earlier in the program. And he was the one, Bert Ruby, who broke the sheik in because the sheik was from the Michigan there, the area, Lansing. Fascinating. Anyway, has this been just fascinating as all fuck?

I have really enjoyed it. We could probably do this another 10 hours, so we should probably stop now so we don't go another 10 hours. that's true and all and it you may not have liked it but we liked it more than talking about goddam espn and their fictitious services well that was a e w dynamite for uh give those midgets back tony con all right we're going to be back in a few days with the other program that we do yours i can't remember what the name of it is now the drive-thru and then back here in a significant period of time with another experience next week. And in parting, give back those digits.

Bye, bye, everybody.