Drive Thru Special - Those We Lost In 2024 Omnibus
00:00Hello again, friends.And you are our friends, the great Brian last here.You there, we are back on the bus with an annual look back at some of the wrestlinggreats, some of the personalities that we lost over the previous year, our annual,those we lost omnibus, looking at those that left us in 2024,comprised, of course, of conversations with this man, the leader of the cult ofCornett, Mr. Jim Cornett.Well, you know, Brian, normally here at the top of these programs,
00:29we're jacking around and having fun.And this is a more serious subject.And to be honest,you know, in a lot of cases,these are the shows that I dread doingthat I'm sitting there for a day or twobefore we're going to record.I don't want to talk about this.
00:43I don't want to talk about this.And we always usually end up having funone way or the other by remembering the person.But at the same point,you know, a lot of people enjoy listening to thembecause it's a chance to, you know,hear some stories about somebody that the fansand the listeners may have viewed as, you know,
01:07as a hero in their wrestling fandom or whateverand like to hear all these things.So the point is it's a bittersweet kind of thing,but we put it together.They do it at the Oscars.And we put these together,but these are discussions about the various wrestling personalitiesthat passed away in 2024.
01:28That's right.And of course, while it's sad that we lost everyone, it is nice to look back and tell stories and enjoy the history.And I'm still, there's some I'm looking forward to talking about as soon as they,but they won't have the courtesy to go ahead and kick off so that I can talk about them.Well, this took a turn.Ladies and gentlemen, let's get right to the omnibus before we hit any other bumps in the road.Jim Cornett's look at those we lost in 2024.for.
01:57Jim, I wanted to get your thoughts on the news that broke this past week,the passing of Killer Khan.And for a lot of the folks who don't,who aren't old enough or who weren't around at that point,Killer Khan was probably most famous in Americafor he had the run with the WWF in 19, what was it?Was it 79ish, 80-ish, 81-ish?What was the day that Andre's broken?
02:2681, 82.And that time framewhere Andre the gianthad an accidentoutside the ringand broke his ankle,but because he had to be outfor a period of time,
02:39they actually incorporated it.They blamed Killer Con for itand even showed some footageof Andre with his doctorand the size of his castand it made something out of it.And that wasunheard of at that point in time
02:54that anybody could injureAndre the Giant. I don't think it had ever been done, at least not on anywidespread, maybe in Montreal in the early days, right?So that got him over with that audience. He had a ton of heat, buthe was a real Japanese wrestlerand worked Japan for periods of time, both when he broke in and then later onwhen he went home to bookend his United Statesexcursions.
03:27But he, you know,he was huge for,you know, for the Japanesewrestling scene. He was, you know,much bigger than almost anybodyexcept Baba, so he got overthat way. And then,you know, had the
03:43Mongolian look when that wasfashionable over here in thiscountry with the ponytail and the whole nineyards and the bigchops. What did you think of as screeching?I guess that's the best way toto call it, the best thing to call it, screeching, right?He had, yes, it was a screech, kind of like a larger, more intimidating looking
04:04guy doing Cactus Jacks, all, you know, at that level.And didn't he then, I mentioned he went back home and wrestled in Japan when his run in Americawas done, where he'd worked all kinds of territories.He was in Dallas for quite a while, wasn't he?Wasn't he part of Akbar'sgang of foreign misfits at one point?Yeah, well, he was with Akbar in Mid-South,and then he went to world-class,
04:32and actually, if you remember, there's a great match.I'm sure it must be available.Gordy and Killer Khan.With Kerry Von Erick as the referee,and this is before the Freebirdshad officially turned baby face,and it's the first freebird Von Erick handshake.It's Terry Gordy at the end,
04:46covered in blood,after one of the most brutal matches of the 80s,shaking hands with the Von Erick.Well, the Von Erich.with Kerry Von Eric.Well, he was the Von Eric at the time to all the fans.But what a match.One of the most brutal, bloody matches, but in the ring,
05:01like, not like around the arena with chairs.It was an in-ring brawl.Hey, in Dallas, you couldn't go around the arena with chairsor you'd have come back in the ring with knives sticking out of your ass.Fucking idiots.But anyway, but yeah, I mean, for a big man, he was a great worker,and he had the intimidating look.And then, but at the same.
05:23time he didn't just, when he went back home, he didn't just work a gimmick. He was aa good worker. And then I guess, owned a restaurant, right, for some period of time over the lastnumber of years since he's been retired from the ring that some of the boys would visit fromtime to time. Not just owning the restaurant. I believe he was the chef in the restaurant.Well, there you go. He wasn't just the owner. He was a customer.He wasn't, no. Well, yeah. Well, no. That's not.how that works. Well, that's how the hair clubfor men fucking spot went.
05:58I'm not, oh, I'm not justthe president. I'm a customer. I don'tknow how you links some swirlingwith killer con.Because he wasn't just the owner.He was the chef. One of the bestbig men, I guessin America during that era, because he had
06:13a second run with Hogan in like 87,I think. Oh, that's right. I forgotabout that. He was on one of theoh god damn it, you're probablybetter with the WWF historythan I am.But wasn't he on, didn't they do an angle on one of the Saturday night's main events?Am I thinking about somebody else?
06:31You may be thinking about somebody else, but you may be thinking about him.But I never met Killer Khan in case you were going to ask that question.I'll preemptively strike.Never met him, believe it or not.When he was, he was in Dallas before we got there and Mid-South before we got thereand then WWF before I got there.He was a trailblazer.He was always there first.
06:54Holy Anderson.Rock Rogowski passed away this past week.A story career, a legendary career, lots of stories, lots of incidents, wrestler, booker, promoter, everything.Someone you had lots of dealings with.You saw him as a fan.You were a colleague of his.Eventually, somehow you earned some respect from him, I think.But someone who at various points in your life, you certainly thought different things about.
07:21let's talk a little bit about Oli Anderson.And also,for the people,Rock Rogowski, he wasn't the rock,but for the people,especially who had known him since theGanya days,would call it rock and everybody knew
07:36personally, you know, not on TV,but in the locker room or whatever,and everybody knew who you were talking about.Although, I will say, when he turned baby face,like that match with Big Bubba in the cage at the Crocky Cup,that was his name.they called him Oli Anderson the Rock and he had a shirt that said the rock on it.Well, that's what that's right.
07:55And then all of a sudden, Vince McMahon made Don Morocco the Rock.So he took that away from it.Well, but I think maybe they may have taken it away because it was too close to the Rock and Roll Express at that time.No, in all seriousness.Well, Oli was 81 and unfortunately he'd been in bad health for some time now.I get, did he have multiple scleros?Oh, I can't say it.MS?
08:19Yeah, multiple scorer.I believe, yeah.Thank you.And, you know, and it's a shame, but 81, and my God, he survived, even stabbed seven times,including that one in Greenville.It was like a fucking half inch from his heart.And, you know, just a long and varied life.And Oli's not the kind of guy.
08:42I mean, I'm not saying with his, you know, family and, you know, we're close friends,but Oli's not the kind of guy that you know,really cry aboutbecause he would have laughed at youif you did, right? Because that sarcasticold rat.But boy, what a fuckingalmost unique talent
09:02that he was in a businessand a fascinating guy.And a brilliant guy, intelligentguy. And I know a lot of peopleare, oh, holy, that grumpy oldonly, for a certain, if youliked sarcastic humor, if you liked a guywith that fucking, what the fuck
09:22are you talking about, kind of goddamnapproach to things.He was one of funniest people in a locker room.He was witty and sarcastic with the comebackand he'd just obliterate you, or he'd just,if he sawbullshit in somethingas a owner or a booker that you were saying,
09:40whether he was right or wrong,he would fucking not only tell you as bullshit,he would analyze the fucking consistencyand the color of the,the bullshit and describe in vivid detail what it smelled like in front of everybodyof your face and you had almost few people really had a response or could muster one,right?He was a very intelligent guy and as we'll talk about as we go on, I don't think people
10:09understand he was one of the most successful wrestlers of all the, I'm talking businesswise, financially and accomplishment wise, of all of the wrestlers.of the territory days from the TV era to the mid-80sbecause a lot of people don't understand the business.But, I mean, we've told a million storiesthat I don't want to, for all the regular listeners,tell every goddamn chapter and verse story againthat's out there. We've done WCW deep dives
10:41and stories of Crockett days and blah, blah, blah.But as we've talked about only over the past couple years,I've said, you know, and especially, you know, in hindsight,going back as we've done those deep dives,when I yelled at Oly and quit at WCW in 1990,I was yelling at him because Jim Hurd wasn't there.He was just the office guy standing there.He didn't, as we've mentioned,
11:08I don't think he particularly gave a shit either way,whether we were there or not,because he didn't give a shit about that job at that point in time anyway.He just wasn't going to fuck with Jim.heard about minute shit.I think he knew it was alost cause. What's it like to yellat Oli? Well, I'd done it a couple of times.
11:29It's not like I'm yelling at him sayingI'm going to come over and punch you in a face.I wasn't going to whip him. He still whipped mehe was 50 or whatever and I was 25.But I'm going,Oli, this is a fucking bullshit.Well, if you think it's bullshit, go home.Well, that's the best idea you've ever
11:44had. Well, go ahead and do it then.and that kind ofand don't come calling me backwhen you're doing some kind of dogand pony show in Memphisdon't worry only I won'tbecause this is the last place I want to batthat type of you know
11:59I mean that was pretty muchgoddamn some word for word shit therebut it's not like we were to strangle each otherover a payoff or somethingyou knowsobut there waseven when we were just
12:15compadres in the locker roomin 86 working for Crockettremember at the time we were in Huntington, West Virginiaat Civic Center were sitting in the locker roomthe fucking 86 bash checks had come outand what did they, in 86 we did 14 bashesand I think only in Arnethey were with the rock and roll most of those shows
12:38and that was a big you know marquee matchbut I think because Crockett paid all the bashon one check.You got your regular date check weeklyright along, but all the bash showscame in one check. So it would look bigger,right? Sofewer people would complain.
12:58And Oli and Arne got like15 grand for the 14bashes, and me and the midnightgot, you know, 23 or whatever, becausewe were working either with Dusty and Magnumor the Road Warriors and blah, blah, blah.And Oli andSidnery and Baby Doll,
13:13that was the key. It was Dusty andMagnum with Baby Doll and me, orthe Road Wars with Baby Doll and me.It was me and Baby Doll, right?That was, and it worked, blessDusty. AndOli's sitting there and going, well, I never thoughtI'd live to see the day that I
13:29had my sweating, blood, and tearsin this business of work to build it upso that some fat manager and goofycan come along and make more moneythan I did, you know, and I said,and only on behalfof the fucking goofy shit, thefat manager would like to thank you for all
13:45that work you did him putting in me getting this fuckingcheck. And he startedliking me for shit like that.How did he react to that specific comment? Did hechuckle? How did he react to him? Yes.Yes. Because it couldbecause, you know, fuck.He would
14:01And again, he wasn't firing me because Ihad fucked up Columbus, Georgia, and hewas the fucking Booker or something.But he had an admirationfor people that could, you know,instead of, well, fuck you only, I hate yourGod's could fucking make some kind of goddamn wise-ass reminder.And he would engage you.
14:21And so he liked that shit.And that's the point that I was making is I was never personally, I don't think,only as we've said he would never admit it probably.But by 1990, that stretch reaves the Booker for six months.He lost the plot, as they say across the pond.And I don't think he really, he wasn't there because of financialness.necessity. Otherwise than I think it was againstI don't know what other religion he might have had, but it was against his
14:52fucking religion to turn down guaranteed hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.But he didn't have any drive to, you know, break new booking ground, and he was justdoing some old shit again, and he didn't have it. But in the 70s and to some extentin early 80s, he had goddamn made a fortune with his booking.he just didn't give a shit and he didn't have full controland the guys didn't understand itand I don't think he gave a shitbecause his check was the same either way
15:24when it was depending on ticket saleswhether he made any money or nothe made changes a lot quickerhe made somealmost bizarre changes at timeslike Roddy Piper getting fired from Georgiawhile he was in a top spotwell but the
15:43because I was such a fan ofthat, right? And that's rightas I was getting into business.And I was such a fanof Piper and that whole angle, butthe conversationthat I gotwhen I first got
15:59in the locker rooms of guys that had been inthe territory or had heard or whatever,was that at that pointin time, Roddy didnot want to do anything,because didn't he go to Continentalright after that for just a brief periodof time, Piper?
16:15He spent a minute in Florida, I know.Or Florida.He got mad because at that point in time, as long as Roddy showed up for his match, he thought he didn't have to get there on time.And he just wanted to go somewhere where he could make $1,000 a week and do the things he was doing.And I think that's what went sideways with Oli because the one thing about Oli, they joked when they actually brought up the idea of a fucking drug test in WCW for steroids, cocaine.whatever the fuck.They said the only two guys on the roster that will pass that test is Oli Anderson and Jim Cornettunless you test for cholesterol.
16:54Because Oli wasn't going to goddamn do it.So that was, I think, him and Roddy may have got sideways on Roddy's habits.Because that's really the beginning of like the turn in Oli's creative powers.Because it was that.And then going into 83, he pushes Barnett out of Georgia, takes full control.Right.Just because the other partners weren't going to interfere with him at that.point, which would end up, we know how that would end up. And look at the booking in Georgia in
17:1983. It's easy to romanticize a lot of it. You know, Tommy Rich and Buzz Sawyer, the creation ofthe road warriors. No, but it was all over the page. The road warriors were an accidentcreated out of necessity. It was all over the page because when only took full control,he loves Stan Hanson. So sure, Stan, I don't mind you go to Japan for a month at a time whileI'll still figure you into big programs or Bill Eadie, superstar.are yeah we'll use you when you can be herebecause you're a great talentbut go to Japan for six weeks so if they
17:51do a mask versus mask or loserleave town or whatever the fuckingand then somebody'd be back insix weeks or it was all over the pagethings would stop suddenly and Oli was runningthe whole company thenand thenwith Barnett gone
18:06Barnett could always be an anchorOly couldyou know he could be a great bookerI don't know that he was everintended to run the entire show or notbecause hehe had aeven though he was a heartless bastard
18:24for the guys that he likedthat he knew had drawn him moneyhe would give them too much leeway with their schedulebecause of what was going on in the businessand Georgia couldn't providethe biggest payoffs anymoreand Barnett would have probably had a little more stabilitywith that or a little more power
18:41in convincing people to do otherwise.And then it all fell apart from thereand he lost the time slot and blah, blah, blah.But if so the thing of me, he lost the company, not just the time.Well, he lost the company and the TV in the whole nine yards.But he was so just to say with me and only, because I know somebody's going to say,how Cornett's saying good things about him, may, I would know.He was a representative of a large,
19:11He was one of the devil's henchmen at the time that he had Oli really weren't happy with each other.And when he wanted to put the pumpkin over my head, that was three days ahead before that.Did he want to do that or did Jim Hurd wanted him to tell him to do that?See, that's the, he wasn't going to tell me.Well, it ain't my idea because he, you know, he's the booker.And it's not, he would have wanted to make everybody think all the goddamn ideas were his, right?Because Oli was not the kind of person that would admit to being told.to do something, but they had the goddamn
19:44the guysdressing up. Well, wasJim Ross Dracula?Missy Hyatt was in, maybe Missy Hyatt wasVampirella. I don't know what the fuckwas going, but the announcers were inwho knows, I can't remember.The announcers were in costume,
20:02it's Halloween havoc,goddamn, I think dangerously as a vampiremaybe. And they hadthe Southern Boys run out dressed as caricatures ofme with oversized tennis rackets, and they had me in the goddamn Confederate general uniformto taunt them, and Oli pitches me.And then they'll take one of the, because there's pumpkins and there's bales of fuckinghay around.
20:26They'll take one of the pumpkins, and they'll fucking hit you over the head with it, and it'llstick on your head.So I'm going to be running around with a jack-a-lantern on my fucking head, right?Not to mention the logistics of how big would this pumpkin have to be to cut a holebig enough to get it over my head without taking my fucking ears off.And I finally, I'd had enough because it's against Tommy Rich and Ricky Morton.We're in the first match.Robert's knee was hurt, Gibson.
20:55So it's not Midnight Rock and Roll.Now it's Tommy and Ricky, and they've never teamed up before on any television programat that point, and we're going to still do the job.And then I'm going to come out and interfere in the Sutherboy.our rivals match and cause them to lose.So our program, both teams get beat by other teams,and then they're going to put a pumpkin over my head to erase any heatthat, you know, I might have accumulated by fucking them out of something.
21:22I said, no, O'Lea.They're not going to put a pumpkin over my head.And he's, wow, they would have done it in Tennessee.And Nick Goulos, he would have done it.I said, there's a difference, only.Nick Goulis drew money.Oh, sick burn, as the kids say, because Oli hated Tennessee.Tennessee wrestling. Yeah, where did that come from? His hatred of Tennessee wrestling.
21:44Because despite the fact that he had never been there. Right. That's what I'm thinking.He's never worked for Nogulus, right? He never, well, no, not even no. No. Not even in the 60s as arookie. We'll get to that. It was the concept and what people told him. Ah, they got that fuckingrough house Fargo over there. He never saw the TV.because there was no fucking home video at that time.You didn't say promoters,unless they sent footage of a guywho was film was coming into your territory,
22:20you didn't see any film from any other territoryunless you went there and watched it.So, but Oli was very serious-minded.That's the way he and Gene got overand built their legacywas these guys are fucking real in a worldthat potentially might be bullshit.And it was, you know,
22:39even though he didn't mind guys with gimmicks,he wanted guys that their shit looked legitimateor they sounded legitimateor you know,you're not going to do anything fucking outrageous.You're not going to break a bottle over a guy's headand he's up making a comeback in fucking five minutesor whatever.
22:55Shit like that.And then the predispositionto everybody that had ever worked for Nick Goulasto go around calling God damn.Ah, Tennessee bullshit.Because they didn't like Nick.except for the people who made money in Tennessee, and they never left.So anyway.
23:14So that's where that came from.But again, you know, that's the, Oli was trying to ever increasingly, you know,he always wanted control of his company or his booking or whatever,but I think that's where he lost it when he was like, I didn't pick these fucking guys.he couldn't just fire fucking guys.Because that's a lot of timeswhen he worked for Oliwhen people suddenly disappeared
23:44he got mad and fired you.As he's mentioned many times,many people have said.But when he was working for TBS,he inherited this fucking rosterof guys he's looking and seeing what they'remaking and he knows whathe's paid talent that have drawn
24:02big money in the past and they'reoverpaid. And healso sees that they're notdrawing dick for a variety of reasons and they're still getting that money whether theypractically show up or not and that just you know I'm sure he was a but that the thing withonly is he wasn't hanging on because he needed the wrestling business people kept asking himto come back and then he'd get in a spot well they're gonna they're gonna give me 150,000and this is 30 years ago
24:38to a fucking goddamn book or whateverwhether I'd do any good at it or notwhat the fuck, right?But he had pretty muchI think it wasn't evenwell pretty much the last run that he wanted to haveas a wrestler was 87 rightwhen he finally broke off from the horseman and switched baby face
25:00he had intended to be retired at that pointand they brought him backin 89 when the deal to get both Tully and Arne got screwed up by Jim Hur.Am I correct on this in your computer brain?He came back a little bit before then.Remember, they also brought him back.I want to say for one night at the Omni,him and Lugar teamed up after Lugar turned Babyface in 88.
25:25All of a sudden they had only in the main event on the Omni with Lugar.In 89, remember, he was the designated enforcer.for the Halloween Havoc Thunderdome match.That's right.It was him and Gary Hart,and then he punched Gary Hart,causing him to throw his white towel in,and Bruno San Martino thought that was it.
25:47Yeah.So he was there a little bit before then.Someone had already made the decision to bring him in.Yeah, well, it was Flair.And that's the thing is thathe knew that, or Flair,thought he knew, that Tully and Arne were coming back,so you would have four horsemen, right?
26:04But the point is that Oly was 81.That means he was born of, what, 1922 at this point.He was making big...1984.642.I'm sorry.What year is this, Jim?Oh, God damn it.
26:22I misspoke.I didn't miss ad.I misspoke.Can we get a cognitive test for Mr. Cornett, please?Yeah, I'll tell you what.I'll fucking, you examine this head.You'll find nothing.By the time of the late 60s, he's 25 years old, he was making good money and on top in a wrestling business.
26:41And by 10 years, pretty much, 10 years in or so, he's booking, he ends up having a run where he books not only the Carolinas, which was, again, a phenomenal wrestling territory that did consistent business for all those years, but he was booking Georgia.at the same time.And the Anderson brothers, his main event talent,were going back and forth between those two territories.And by the late 70s, early,whenever he bought the piece of Georgia for Watts's piece,now he owns part of the company.That was in 15 years.
27:26When he was in the mid-80s,when he was working for Crockett,and then switched baby face,and then late 80s came back to WCW.He had gone back to Minnesota during that period of timebecause he owned a sawmill.Some people used to call it a lumber yard,but it wasn't like Lowe's.
27:46It was a sawmill that prepared lumber to go to the peoplethat sold lumber.Because everybody would always say,Hey, holy, how's the lumber business or whatever?I got a sawmill.But I mean, in this,obviously you don't justown a fucking sawmill
28:05for a hobby he was making moneywith that he had made a fuckingfortune for the territory daysin the businesswe've talked about this beforebut when you take into accountwhat he was making in the late 70sin most of the territory
28:25he was in comparableterms with anybodybut Andrethe NWA champion and Brunobecause he couldbetween his bookingpay fora territory like the Carolinas that
28:41ran sometimes three showsa night in those days and theBooker gotsmall percentages off each of the showsas well as his main event pay for himand Gene being on topor then later on him and Hanson or himand whoever you know
28:57whatever heel he was teamed withand then Georgia toohe was making a quarter of a million dollars a yearin the late 70s. Gross.But that'sclose to a million dollars in today's money.And there was a great article.I think it was Greg Oliver,
29:15who's done a bunch of the Hall of Famebooks and articleswhen they called Oli,some Hall of Fame called Oly.Oh yeah, that's actually from the Wrestling Review.That's from something I own Greg reprinted it.It's a great article.Well, I'm glad you mentioned you own that.
29:31because now you can probably done Greg for a fucking percentage of it.But yes.There'll probably be a wrestling review collection coming out at some point soon.Oh, wink, wink, nod, possibly available at Jim Cornett.com.But anyway, he wrote the article talking about when some Hall of Fame called Oli to say they want to induct him.And what was the premise?He asked, well, why he inducted me before?Who said before me or whatever Oli would do, right?
29:59And the guy told him, well, you know, you.were big in the Carolinas, you know, in Georgia, but you never, you never really workedanywhere else.You weren't big anywhere else.And he's, what kind of fucking moron are you?Why would I want to go anywhere else?I was doing so well there.Well, that was the fight he had with Dave Meltzer on the old Wrestling Observer radio show
30:18years ago.Okay.Dave had him on, and Oli had just put out his book with Scott Teal, which is a fascinatingbook to read.It's certainly Oli's perspective of things.And there was a chapter, which was like two pages about Dave.not putting him in the first class of the Hall of Fameand the voters not voting him in.
30:35And then he went on with Daveand that was one of the thingsyou didn't go to enough places.And he's like,you know, he's one of these people.It's like, I got into this business to make money.I didn't have to go anywhere.Why would Bruno?
30:47Why would Bruno leave what he's doing hereto go somewhere else?Well, and see, that's the thing.That's why I mentioned he was so uniquein one of the most successful guysin territory days when you think aboutin the territories,system, when you started in the business unless you were getting a push because you were some
31:06other professional sport attraction or whatever the fuck, when you started like a regular guy,you would go from territory to territory and hopefully work your way up the cards, get moreexperience, get better, somebody sees you give you a gimmick, and you go from making the leastamount of money into preliminaries to the most amount of money in the main events. But even then,you can still be a bigger star in a bigger territorybecause the guys making main event moneyin a Kansas City territorythat might have been level of the underneath
31:42preliminary guys in the Carolina territory.You wanted to be a big star in all the territories, right?But it was almost never a careeryou could even possibly plan,much less actually intend to dowhere you would just go to one or two placesand suddenly you would get to be such a big star in that locationmaking so much money for so long
32:08that you would either own part of the thingor you'd never be asked to leave or want to leave.And that would be the Bruno's and the Jerry Lawlersand the goddamn Vernanjasand the very few other people, right?And Rick Flair to Carolinas.and that's like the goddamn, you know, because there were some guys.That's the dream, isn't it?
32:35Isn't it a wrestler's dream?I don't have to go too far from home and I'll make all this money?In the territory days, think about this.It wasn't just a wrestler, you know, going from territory to territory and the twinkling of an eye.It's if he's married, if he's got kids, the wife has to go, the kids have to go,unless you're going to keep two residences in two different parts of the country.and some of these guys would be into business for 15 or 20 years,and they would make enough money to make a living,
33:05but they would be in two or three territories every year rotating around.Sometimes they could stay for six months or nine months or whatever.Sometimes it might be three months, or who knows what might happen.And has different schools and apartments and all this bullshit.and then when you get to be a star to the level that promoters want you to work all over the country,then you're in the main events and they're flying you places and you're making main event moneyand picking your spots.That's a whole different deal.
33:40But for somebody to be able to go and not only be a featured main event attract,because when only replaced the original Minnesota wrecking crew inthe Carolinas wasGene Anderson and Lars Andersonand for whatever purposesthat Lars needed replacingwhen he went out somewhere elsethey bring in only
34:07and think about this a guy that had been trainedby Vern Gagne in that system in Minnesotathey need a replacementin the Carolinasand they get this guyRock Rogowski, who grows a mustache out and looks enough like he's Swedish out of Only Anderson.I don't know what the fuck.That he can be, you know, Gene Anderson's partner, and he's a big, tough, legitimate fucking guy.
34:39But then that starts the Minnesota-Carolina pipeline.Flair to the Carolinas.The road warriors, when only needs somebody on a sperm of the moment,and they and you knowSharky is oh I got thesefucking guys and that's you knowhow many people followed thatbut Oli was probably the first right
35:01what 68 or so hehe joined Genehe came over early and again he always keptthat good relationship with Vern Ganya toohe would still talk glowingly about Vernyou know until the very endso that he's had that good relationship andyou know it is interesting when you like I go through
35:18my files I did the other day after Oli passedand you look at the Andersonsand all these pictures of Gene and Larsand almost a different teamjust in terms of the feel altogether.They called him Rock Rogowski for a reason.He wasn't on the gas or anything.He was just a naturally big guy
35:33who lifted weight to.It was like a rock as opposed to Lars who,well, you know, Lars was Lars.Who looked like Lars?I always loved when Oli turned on Dustiathat he's like, my foolish brother Lars,whatever he said,he threw out some line about Lars.
35:49But yeah,opened up the pipeline. Well, and also the thing is, Gene and Lars were established, and we'vetalked about the Carolina as being a tag team territory. And they would, you know, rotate a lot of,you know, Nelson Royal and Tex McKenzie and Johnny Weaver and George Becker and the Kentuckyans and thebolos and et cetera, et cetera, who are the assassins. And, you know, the Anderson's fit right inthere, but when Oli came in, they were somewhat already established, but they got bigger fromthere.And I think only because, I mean, we've talked about Gene.
36:30What a believable fucking guy he was.And, you know, he was an almost 50-year-old fucking stroke survivor who was pudgy andsmoked like a chimney and balding.And he could walk up by the barbarian and give him that fucking grip.I've talked about on the elbow, whatever that fucking pressure point, the nerve, the bones,thumb and fucking middle finger, any deb, barb on the floor, or any other grown man I ever saw.That, no, Gene, please, I'm a pussy.Say you're a pussy, I'm a pussy, Gene.
37:02Anything, let me go.They weren't working with him.All the fans knew that Gene was legitimate.He trained a bunch of guys that broke in the Carolinas in those days.But he wasn't a great promo.When they made him a manager, it was because,the fans had such respect slash fear for what he might be able to do to somebody,but it was because after he'd had the health problems.
37:29When Oly, and you've heard Lars Anderson's promos, Jesus, Mary and Joseph.So when Oly came in, one of the great, legitimate, big, bully, sarcastic,literate, though, logical, emotional promos in all of reality.wrestling, and he could stand there and tell you anything.And you might not even believe it, but you would swear on your life that this guy sayingit believed it and really meant everything he was saying.And he was just so real as a fucking windbag prick and a bully and a blowhard and afucking egotistical, whatever the fuck, right?
38:13That's what got, I think the Andersen's to the next level and the work.And then, you know, that's what, when I was there in the mid-80s,and this was 15 years after, you know, only had started,all the fans would talk about great tag teams,and whether they mentioned, you know, the rock and roll or the midnightor whether it's back to Flair in Valentine or Steamboat and Youngblood or whatever,they would mention different teams because there had been so many great teams,tag team territory.
38:45but almost everythe first one would be the Andersonsbecause they were likeoh, it was the Andersonsand then everybody else came upyou knowand that's why they never leftthey just fed guys to them
38:57and they drew in all those townsregularly for fucking years and yearsas a fan before you got into the businesswe've talked about in the pastwe'll talk about it again brieflybut you know one of the things you attendedwas the night that he turned on dusty roadsthat Jean turned on dusty roads
39:14Omni in Atlanta in 1980, but before we even get there,what was it like for you when you rescued those tapes, tapes, those films?Yeah.And had them transferred.And for the first time, you're seeing all this stuff, which is really the classic Anderson Brothers period.Yeah.Well, it was, I have, I got goosebumps right now, you know, running up and down my spine.No, this was stuff that we didn't know still existed.
39:43and that, you know, had never been seen beforebecause it was before the days of home video and all that stuff.And, you know, it was all of those guys in their prime,but with the Andersons, you can see,they were different than everybody else because they...Well, you saw a bit of it in Oli's work in the 80sin terms of if a baby face was going to make a comebackor even gain any ground,
40:09they really had to fucking fight.They really had to fucking...assert themselves to find then if you if they got enough if only and jean got enough they'd startbacking up you can't see me but i'm rocking in my seat now and they you know if only was hangingon to your fucking wrist and you punched him in a head his fucking body language he'd register it butlike punching a bull but he hit him the second time and his knees would wobble but he hit hima third time and his his body's starting to sag but he's going down to a knee but he's stillhe won't let go of the fucking wrist they made the baby faces five
40:43for shit and the people got with it moreand then they were moreyes they were basicbut when only came off the top ropehe would jump off the top rope andeither do the knee to the armwhich never blew his kneeson all those shitty rings doing that
40:59and when you land it's more dangerousthan what he was doing to the fucking opponentor just to hammeror club somebody and they'd slamon the arm and they'd quick tag in and outand the sacrificethingwhere, you know,
41:15they did it in several big moments.They didn't overuse it because, see, that's another thing.They stayed in the same territory all those years.They didn't have once in a lifetime,one in a million fucking fluke spotsthat they overdid to the point of prostitutionbecause people saw them all the time.They had to just fight and wrestle
41:35and get people behind the fucking match.And they did that the same place for years and years.but the sacrifice thingwhere all would be lostand suddenly if Gene was hanging on the ropes or whateveror leaning into the ringOli would grab the baby faceand run the baby face's head head first into fucking Gene
41:57and remember that's the fucking same thingthat fuckeddynamite kid up in the Bulldogs matchand where the gardener whereverwas he did that spot of WrestleMania toothat was the finish. They rammedI want to say Valentineinto Dynamite Kids' head and he went
42:15flying off the apron intothe crowd, or not the crowd, but all the wayto the floor and they missed it. They missed theshot of it. They missed the shot,but dynamite didn't miss the floorand that's what fucked his back. Well, Valentinegave him that finish because they got it from theAnderson brothers.
42:32And maybethat's why Gene laterin life had the strokeand ormuscle spasms because they did it a number but that's that's the kind of they would go to any lengthsto win a match right the Andersons mean cruel and nasty and that's I mean that's why that theyhad that level of heat when Oli was stabbed in Greenville that was at 19776 maybe whatever the pointis he'd been working Greenville on a weekly basis in the Carolinas for almost 10 years
43:08at that point, he still had enough heat that this guy wanted to kill him, literally tried to kill him,stabbed him a half inch from his heart.And, you know, you don't get that by goddamn being phony.When you watch those films after you had him transfer, what did you also think,because I'm fascinated by Babyface Oli Anderson?Because those promos are amazing.Yes.Just his ability to communicate is amazing.
43:32But what did you think of Babyface Oli?Well, that's also with the transfers, one thing I was going to mention,and only could do either onebecause he could talk and make you believethat he was an evil bullybecause everything he said made senseand it sounded like he meant it,but he could also talk and make you believe
43:51that he was in the rightin a particular situationbecause he could logically communicate that.And he never said it.He didn't suddenly start,oh, I'm only going to do a headlock.He would still do his only Anders and shit.So it was a heel getting a taste
44:07of his own medicine.But another thing about the transfers of the filmsto watch the people.To watch the peoplein the various venues in that territorythat saw wrestling againeither every week or every two weeksat that point in time.
44:23And they would go absolutelybat-shit insanefor these wrestling starsthat they saw on all the shows,but they were so overand they were so intothe one-ingto see their hero win and their
44:39the villain loseand people get their comeuppanceand the fuckingyou know what's going to happenboy we want revengefor whatever's been done to our guythey just they're jumping up and downscreaming throwing umbrellas popcorn
44:55babies in the airI mean all the territory crowdsmost of many good territories they had their hotmoments but they alsoyou know but it for aa long period of time, the Carolinas was wrestling crazy,and the guys that were on top either had an inordinate amount of heator were just, you know, the people had hung the moon.
45:19And the end, that's why when, as I said, when, you know,when Oli got there, he never had, and Georgia was the, the NWA territory next door.And obviously, even though it was one state, much smaller schedule than the Carolinas withtowns a night through North and South Carolina and Virginia, part of West Virginia.Barnett, one most powerful people in a business.So he would annex some of the talent and the, you know, the Piper's or whoever wouldappear on both.It was a great payoff for Jim Crockett senior and junior's talent to come down to either
45:59be featured in the Atlanta shows or later on on the Omni.and when TBS gotyou know the super stationor got to be a super stationso there wasif you were on top in both those territoriesyou could makeyou know as I mentioned
46:18a couple or $3,000 a weekin those days just wrestlingwell actually some of the guysof Carolinas in the late 70sFlair and Valentine were making close to150 grand a year just in the Carolinasso that wasyou didn't need to go anywhere
46:36and then Oli he becomes a bookerhe's making extra money and then he becomes part ownerso that's a Oli was neverhe didn't drinkhe only was as much of a fan of womenas anybody ever into wrestling businessbut he didn't chase women to a stupid degreeand spend a fortune on him
46:57he didn't spend a fortune on any fucking thinghis t-shirt with his goddamnyou know evil mean and nasty or whateverthat was a rib because oldie anersonwasn't going to spend money on a goddamn ring jacketso he was independently wealthy and didn't need to do thisby the time the mid-80s rolled aroundwell before we get to the mid-80s 1980s
47:19the turn in Atlanta yesthe only match you didn't shoot ringside forwell and and that was the thingthe WFIA Wrestling Fans International Association Conventionthat years inGeorgiaand the highlight of the weekend of any of the conventionswas you went to the territory's main
47:42building to see when the Memphis Conventionwe went to the Mid-South Coliseum, Knoxville,went to Knoxville Civic Coliseum, Atlanta,we're going to the Omni.So that weekend we saw a TBS television taping.We saw a spot showin, God, I think it,it, shit, where was
48:02it, may have been Carrollton, Georgia.And we had the banquet, and we wereat the Omni. AndI was there at Ringside for all the other matches.It was Harley Race against Tommy Richfor the NWA World Title.AndDutch Mantel worked with Chavo Guerrero.
48:22The first time I sawanybody do a fucking moonsault,body block off the top was,Chavo and a number of other matches, butthere was one match that was the cage matchand I had forgotten and got there, I didn't have anyhigh-speed film. You can't shoot that chain linkcage with a fucking flash because it fucks everything up.
48:48And I say, you know what? I'm going to go back up and sit withWeasel and my mom is there andyou know, and just watch the cage match.instead of shoot at ringside.When did you learn that lesson?Was there a specific match or examplewhere you learned that you can't shoot cage matches?Yes, the first time that...
49:06You know, the chicken wire was okaythat we had in Louisville for all those years,but the first time I went to a placethat actually had a real fucking cyclone fence cage,it just looked like shit.It throws not only...Does the light reflect,but it threw the automatic exposure setting
49:24that you had back then.It threw that off.and so the background inside the cage was dark, blah, blah, blah.And so I started shooting 400-speed film, no flash with cage matches,but because of the hecticness, I got no high-speed film,nobody else, I'll sit this one out.I'm tired.I'm so tired.
49:48And luckily, because they had a fucking riot.It was the culmination of the year, year-and-a-half-long deal they had doneonly had turned baby faceand he had started teaming up with Tommy Richand he had teamed up with Mr. Wrestling tooand he had teamed up withbut Dusty Rhodes would never agreeto be his tag team partner
50:11because of the animosity from themfrom you know the years previousand they even they would show thefucking clip of Dustyit will never be overand so finallytheassassins, the hottest heel team, at least of the modern era in Georgia wrestling at that point in time.
50:33Maybe in Georgia wrestling history.Maybe in Georgia wrestling history.Finally, it's the assassins and they have fucked with Oli.And Ivan Koloff is a heel.He's on the assassin's side.And Gene Anderson had been out of the picture, had been away from the territory.Oli would later say that Gene had left the territory because he couldn't bear it.to see who I was associating myself with.
51:00His do-gooder brother Lars.That's what he called him.My do-gooder.My do-goter brother, Lars.But Olin had problems with the assassins and Ivan Koloff, and he needed help.And Dusty had had problems with the assassins.And finally, they shot some kind of, I can't remember what, but they really did something to Dusty.And Dusty came and agreed to be Oli's partner so they could get rid of it.
51:26the assassins.Andso this had beenlike a year,year and a halfin the building ofthis to geteven though
51:35Oli had been astraight baby faceand all the othershad teamed up with himand there was no hintof the betrayalof anybodyDusty wouldn't
51:43have anything to dowith himand finally they havethe matchand then they havea rematchand then as theclassic promo
51:51everybody's heard itI used to hand itout in OVWthe promo that Oli did the week after this incident we're talking aboutto explain it allwas one of the great ones in the history of professional wrestling by anybody.He said, I got an idea.What about a cage, Dusty?
52:12We could keep those assassins in with a cage,and the idiot went for it.Oli suggests the cage match with the assassins,and Dusty agrees to it.And the two referees are,Gene Anderson and Ivan Koloff.And sothe match starts and they're, you know, they're wrestling,
52:33they do their thing and it was a cage matchand it's fine, people are liking it.And then finally they start getting some heat onon Oli and they get him down and it's not really much going on.It's not like they're killing him or anything.And in final, but the people want to see Dusty make the tagand finally, I'm no, I'm sorry, I tell a lie.They did it the other way around.
52:56It happened quick, didn't it?Yeah, they didn't get heat on, I was thinking of another time.They got heat on Dusty straight away.They did some shining, but then they got the heat on Dusty,and he was milking getting the tag to Oli.And finally,Dusty does get the tag to Oli,and that's when Oli jumps in
53:16and looks at the assassins and turns around,and God damn starts wailing on Dusty.and then at that pointGene drops any pretense of beingyou know against the other guysand he starts getting on Duhand everybodylittle detail that was awesome
53:34the assassins look at each other likewhat is happening here?Yeah yeah at first they're likeokay well just all goddamnand well you know once they realizethey're not really a fight anymoreand now they're in the cageand there's one two three
53:49there's five of them and Dustyand they're killing Dustythe cage in the amni in Atlantaand the people got hot and thenit turned more desperate becausethey started sendingthe boys out, the wrestlersthe underneath guys, to start
54:08and they can't get in, they're shaking the door, the dooris locked. The door, they can'tdo the referee, it was, the refereesare in the ring and they've got the fuckingkeys and everything, blah, blah, blah.And so the underneath guys starttrying to climb the cage and then theheels in the ring, get up
54:24the ropes and they're hitting their hands so they can't climb the cyclone fence and they'reknocking the baby faces off the fucking cage.This is really creating a goddamn element of jeopardy.While they're still working on Dusty and breaking his leg or whatever they were doing,in the middle of the ring, the other ones are keeping the baby faces from, and that'swhen you, you know, Lars is out there because Lars had been presented as a baby face,even though by that point his glory days were long behind him.and finally
54:54some of the fans get they create such a sense ofof urgency to this that the fans starttrying to climb the guy now the heelsare hitting the cage for realoh shit don't let those motherfuckers get over the topand that's whenthey got the bolt cutters or whatever theyfucking did and they got the door open and a bunch of the baby
55:15faces pour in and this is always an awkward momentbecause there's only one door in those old cagesand it was only like three feet wide.So the heels have to stand the baby faces off.The baby faces have to go to the injured baby face.They're saving and look like they're trying to do something,but the heels got to get out the same door they just came in.And those baby faces had to do something.
55:41So they're wailing on the goddamn heelsas they're trying to get out that door.That's uncomfortable as fuck.I've been in that position.And then the goddamn,once the heels get out on the floorthe cops are shittingbecause the whole arena is in an uproar
55:58and it wasn't sold out that nightbut I've made it.It looked great to me because it's the first timeI'd ever been there but I'm going to saywas there 12,000 people therewouldn't have been out of the way10 or 12,000 they're fucking pissedand the floor area and in the Omni
56:13I may have mentioned you had to walk downan aisleway and then kind of cut to a diagonalfurther aisleway to getunderneath to the locker room.So they can't get the goddamn heels out.They've been in the cage for a while now,and they still can't get the heels out of there.And then they just all the cops circle them and they run,
56:35and they got the shit beat out of them.It was fucking chaos.But that got the,it got the point across.And of course, the video's out there.I think it's called the Big Turn of 1980.And it is an extraordinary,ordinary video because the way they covered it is one of the,
56:54so it's an amazing clip because they show the footage and they have all thewraparound interviews while Oli's in a studio.And I forget who walked away at the beginning, maybe Walter Johnson or who was it?Someone walked away and they said, you'll get yours one day, Oli Anderson.And he goes, not from you.Yeah, not from you.Remember the interview I was telling you about where the guy, the football player forgotall the guy's names?
57:16Yeah, yeah, yeah.That's it.And it's, and it only said,just go on, just get out of here.Nobody wants to hear from you.Just leave.But anyway,so that's,
57:30unfortunately,I think Oli is moreremembered for being a grumpy,bad booker in 1990 orwhatever than he is for beingone of the great fucking heel talentsin a business and one of the most successfulguys of the territory days
57:47you know,that he should be remembered forbecause most of that stuff is not around anymoreand in the public eye or where people trip over itare forced to look at it.And of course, when you would go to Crockett, he would be thereand you would see him and that was the end of his run.I guess the rumor is that he took all the Georgia master tapes
58:10and burned them in his yard when Vince McMan got the company.And it sounds believable because of who it is.He wanted to have a blood oath with the briskos.I don't know.With Oli again,you know,maybe he put him in a goddamn shitjust to hide him
58:26and he was going to denyany knowledge of where they wereand they rotted rather than himbecause I'm thinking he can,he's got to figurehe could have made some money out of him sometime or rather.But that's why.And of course,
58:37I was the first time I ever got firedin the wrestling business.And fuck the last time for the next 22 years,I guess,was Oli.And when he closed,the whole territory down in Georgia.We did the summer of 83 for six glorious weeks.
58:55And he closed the territory at the classic line to Dundee and Ron West.Don't do this anymore.What?The interviews?No, any of it.And everything's canceled.Okay.But he,
59:13when I first came to Crockett,think about what Oli thinks of me,because I guarantee,God damn T you.that Oly Anderson did not watchany pro wrestling on televisionin his spare timeor any wrestling that he was not involved with
59:33that he had to watch for businessif he was book or whateveror potentially even if he did a television showyI don't imagine he'd probably watch himselfby this point, right?So the only time that he has ever seen mebefore I come to work for Jim Crockpromotions where I'm managing
59:52the new topheel tag team that's comingin the territory of their manager, a guy namedJim Cornett. I workedfor him for six weeks, twosummers previouslywhere the most notable thing Idid on his fucking
01:00:07Chattanooga studio televisionshow that he was never even there in personfor was getting my faceshoved in a cake while conducting abirthday party for my dog.And the whole timehe's boy.Nick Goulis,
01:00:21that's the funny thing.Well,there you get.Yes.Well,because here's the thingwhen,because they told me
01:00:28Ronnie West and Dundee,because they were the only onesthat actually saw Oli,right?When we were working there,Oli wasn't coming aroundthose fucking towns,but they would go in once a week
01:00:39and have the meeting with him.And he didn't like the birthday party with the dog.They came back and said,oh,fucking Oli hates you.He hated the birthday party.So when I met him,the next week because when we did the local promos,
01:00:54it was in the Omni, the offices that the Georgiawrestling office had. And, you know, he couldstroll by. And I met him that next week afterthe birthday, which was two weeks before he came in and said, don't do this anymore.And he said, ah, you're a cornet. I said,only is nice to meet you. I saved you a piece of cake. He said, yeah? I said,it's in my ear.And that's the last interaction I had with Oli Anderson until I walked into Crockett being the manager of the top heel tag team.
01:01:28You know, speaking of interactions, I guess for a lot of the younger fans or people who discovered a lot of these guys on tapes or later on DVD and then actually really on YouTube, Oli became known as the grumpy guy in various shoot interviews and documentaries where he would say what he would say.You know, he told Vincent McMahon to go, fuck himself, that he said the same thing to Linda.Yeah.He bragged them out.Hold on now.Don't gloss over.Vince said after the, the unpleasantness over the Georgia office, Vince was at a placewith Linda.
01:02:02And he said, oh, he said, got my wife Linda here.I'd like you to meet her.And he said, fuck you and fuck Linda.See, the funny thing, too, is Vince McMahon went everywhere with lots of bravado.And he dealt with a lot of tough, strong personality.He tried to take down Harley Race in a band.bathroom.Yeah.
01:02:20And he got his ass kicked.When he went down to Georgia after everything, he broke Gorilla Monsoon as his bodyguard.That's the only time he went with someone because he was afraid something could happen.Right?Think about that.It's true.And Oli is the only one that would never at any point before, during, or after, his unpleasant dealings with Vince McMahon, did he ever goddamn soften up?Well, Vince, you know, at least we can look back on those.
01:02:49that no, fuck you and fuck Linda and fuck your kids. You fucked me and I don't need you and I won'tbuddy up to you and I'm not going to forgive you for it. See, Vince counted on that from theentire industry. I fucked you, you know it, but you have to come work for me. And maybe we'llget along. It'll be great, but you'll be working for me and I'll be in charge.Very few people said, go fuck yourself over and over and over again like old Lee Anderson did,which makes it even more surprising that WWRWA,I guess this shows a lot about the change of management there.Yeah.
01:03:23They put up a very nice graphic and talked about him a little bit.Yes, and of course you could tell Michael Cole had to look down to refer to his noteswhen he said, nobody will ever forget the Minnesota wrecking crew.That's the answer we were looking at.You want to pay tribute to Ole Anderson, a wrestler I've never heard of before.No, but it was nice.They did a tribute to him on there.AEW ended up combining his and Virgil's,
01:03:47tribute together during the ring entrance, I think, for the Orange Cassidy match.And I'll think it is, boy, if only Anderson was alive for this.Oh, my God.Let me tell you something.Let me tell you something.I'm old.I need to save my money because it's all downhill from here.But I'll guarantee God damn tea.
01:04:04I won't spend a lot of money on too much these days, but I would give someone every penny I hadto just have a video, much less be there in person.of two hours ofOli Anderson in the AEW locker roomthat would be thisfuck Richard Pryor Chris RockCarlin can get no that would bethe funniest fucking material that any off the top
01:04:29of his headthat would be the greatest fucking performancein the history of wrestlingso and of course hegave me the greatest complimentI've ever had I will memorializethis one more time in your memory Oliis a car
01:04:44I used to think you were a dumb fuck.So many other dumb fucks have come along that have worse than you arethat you've moved up the ladder without doing anything.And for only that was glowing praise.You have to think that's his way of saying, I like you.You're doing good.Yes.I had to somehow impress him in some fashion
01:05:10that I was now not the biggest dumb fuck.he's ever seen. You know, I saw Rick Flair put out a very nice tweet, and obviously he doesn't dohis own tweets. He has someone who does it for him, but, you know, they had a big falling out.I think Oli lent him money and whatever happens happens, and they had a major falling out. ButFlair acknowledged, you know, I was brought in as an Anderson. That's what got me over, really.Yeah. Being an Anderson in Mid-Atlantic, and it's all because of Oli. And that's because beingfrom, well, I mean, this is as simple as it was in those days, and it weren't. And itworked. Everybody in the Carolinas knew that the Anderson brothers, the Minnesota
01:05:49wrecking crew, are from Minnesota. When they bring this kid in from Minnesota, at that point,it was George Scott, but I'm sure, you know, all the Crockett's agreed and et cetera, the best wayto get somebody over is to align them with the Anderson brothers. Here's somebody from Minnesota.He's the cousin. He's the cousin of the Andersons. And that gave him instantfucking heat that he was just related to those goddamn low-life people in the in the fan's eyes.And they needed to keep track of who the family was because Arne Anderson at one point wasOli's cousin, his nephew, then eventually his brother.Well, I think that's when they started realizing it.
01:06:31Wait a minute. Arne's not, Arn looked older than he was and to be Oli's nephew.Jesus, how old is Oly?But yeah, Flair, I think, was always a cousin.our cousin, Rick Flair.And we talk about it getting Flair over in Mid-Atlanticor being one of the things that led to it, Arne Anderson.Marty Lundy was a very talented undercard wrestler,did some work from Mid-South on TV,
01:06:58was working obviously in his home area,becoming Arn Anderson,immediately lent him credibility.And when people talk about the Anderson look,because various other people throughout time since then,like all of a sudden, it's like,here's Bill Andrew,I shouldn't, that's a, there really is a Bill Anderson.
01:07:13Well, our country music star, Bill Anderson would like to have a word with you.But I know the point you were stretching to make.It's all these look.Like the classic Anderson look, it's always look.It's not like this guy looks like Jean, this guy looks like Lars.No, this guy's a beard and a mustache and he's going bald.He's in Anderson.And I think Arn will be the one to tell you that, I mean,
01:07:33Arn was a fabulous worker in his career and was one of the premier talkers.But neither one of those things.his work got him noticedbut the thing thatenabled him to get the spotthat he got to show his talentswas that he happened to look like fucking Oliif he'd have had no resemblance to Oli
01:07:55I don't know if they would have taken the goddamnyou know they would have wanted to do something with himbut I don't know if they would have taken thetime and the care and gone to that levelto make him an Anderson brother and put him in a spot like thator an Anderson family memberif he had to look like Oly.He wouldn't have got that opportunity.
01:08:16Hey, one more story before, I know we've gone a while here, but, you know,Oli was there when you left WCW.You were there when Oli got fired from WCW.And you played a pardon it.Well, I don't mean in a bad way, but it was only trying to.But I can't say I wasn't even there because I was there.But it was only trying to get his son set up so he could start in a business the right way.and it ended up costing him his WCW job,
01:08:41although he didn't really seem to be too upset about it.Well, and it may be also romanticizing it to say that it cost him his job.Bischoff was, that was part of the story, I will tell it,rather than beat around the bush about it,but Bischoff was waiting for an opportunity, a reason,or just the time where he was far enough away from Oli to fire him.So it just came up while I was in the middle of it.But Oli and Eric Bixie,
01:09:09Bischoff, obviously, for a variety of reasons, and you can go read his book, I'm not going to quote him chapter and verse, didn't get along with each other or have probably the same outlook on the wrestling business, but Oli had been at that point because he had a contract of some description.You know, he had been the booker and he'd been in management when Bischoff made his play for it.Only it ended up, he's working in the power plant and as a trainer and or, you know, director of special.projects. Steve Hirsch, the head of Vivid Video, the porn company.So whenever they had a girl on the roster that it was their girlfriend, but they wanted to put heron the payroll and get her a job, they'd make her director of special projects.So he was just hanging around with not a lot of pull on anything. And they had been trainingOli's, Oli was, too many pronouns, pal. And Oli at the same time, Bryant,
01:10:09his son, Bryant Ruggowski,had been training to wrestleand had one of the power plant contracts,whatever they call them, developmentals.So, I guess as part of the heat,they either cut Bryant or let his deal expire,they didn't give him a chance to do anything or whatever.And that this was the point where I was running Smoky Mountain.
01:10:34Knoxville and Atlanta are 200 miles apart.and it's been so long since I've thought of the initiation of it.I think Oli called me, did he not?Or how did I get, how did I get note about that?He must have, because you wouldn't have been calling there like, hey, do you have any guys that they just cut?I hadn't talked to Oli since I yelled at him and walked out on him fucking four years beforehand.So, but anyway, I say, you know what to have the son of Oly Anderson.in Smoky Mountain Wrestling, especially if Oli said,
01:11:12I'll cut some promos and introduce him for you.Now I'm going to get Oli Anderson on Smoky about wrestling TV.Yes, I'm interested in him.He told me Bryant's background.He was not only a big kid, and he had the Anderson look.He had the fucking mustache.He looked like Oly and also he could wrestle and was a big kidand obviously didn't have any goofy or unrealistic expectations
01:11:37of what the business was,because he's only son.And since then, by the way,he's had a successful business careerand personal lifeand is a well-thought-of member of the communitydown there in North Georgia, I believe.So, you know, it's probably better
01:11:55that the wrestling thing went away.Bryant, I'm talking about.But anyway, so what I did was,I said, look, I got these shows this weekend,then I will come down to Atlantaand I'll bring the cameraand let's shoot some interviews with you introducingBryant
01:12:13because I didn't expect at that timethat he would be able to come tomy television. He still works forWCW right? He's not going to be able to cometo fucking Hurley Virginia to my TV taping.I said where are you on me to meet you at a hotelor we do, you know, what? Now I'll come to the power plant.What?
01:12:32Come on down. We'll shoot it in the parking lot.I said, oh God damn it. Here we go.I'll be there.So he gives me the directionsthat I'd drive down, Jim Cornett.Now we know that there'sissues between me and WCW,and at that time,
01:12:50I think Bischoff was aware that, yes,because I'd specifically at SuperBrawl 3, I'd specifically told himthat I blamed him foraltering our angle and told himhe was the reason we wouldn't be back and didn't trustanybody in a fucking place, right?So this is like November of 94 October, October, whatever.
01:13:12So I pull in the parking lot and I park and I go up and I see Jody Hamilton.Hey, Jody, how you doing?I blah, blah, blah.I said, Terry Taylor, hey, Terry, how you doing?And Terry excuses himself to go somewhere.Yeah, to make a phone call, I'm sure.Yeah, huh?And then here's Oli and Oli tells Jody,
01:13:42I'm taking lunch.So we go out in the parking lot and Oly tells the first thing he says to me,he says, Eric Bischoff has not been the power plant.Now, Eric Bischoff has not been in this place six weeks.I guarantee you if you're here an hour, you'll see him.Because it wasn't like it was next door,the CNN Center in downtown Atlanta, the regular office.this was out like in suburban, northeastern,
01:14:07whatever the fuck, I can't remember.So it took a minute, you know, in between.So we're shooting the interviews,and I've got my tripodof my little eight millimeter camera.And Oli's and Brian are talking on my pencil microphonetaped to a pencilbecause I didn't have a handheld
01:14:26and I just kept it that way.And they shootthree or four differentfucking interviews, right?plus we've talked about it in between.So let's say, you know, 20 to 30 minutes.And as we're doing the last one,only's talking and all of a sudden he looks off camera.
01:14:48This is one we didn't use.He said, ah, here we go.And I look, and there's Bischoff in his red corvette pulling into parking lot.So, I mean, he must have used the express elevator at CNN Center.And so I assume.do you need to go? He said, oh, hold on. So Bischoff walks up to get within about 10 feet of us.He sees me there with the camera. I'm beaming. Holy, can I see you a minute?Said, Eric, I'm on lunch. I'm doing an interview with my kid. Hold on. I'll be right there.
01:15:25So he finished the fucking, the last one we got to do, right? And he says, all right, I'm going to go in here.Go in and get fired. Because he was, he, he, I think.think this was maybe part of hisplot. He knewhe didn't want to be there anymore. He's takingthe money, but God damn it, he wasn't going tofucking get mad if Bischoff firedhim because he didn't like fucking Bischoff.
01:15:48It was only, right?So, God damn,they go inthe power plant. I'm standing there talking toBryant, and that's what I've told the story before.I saw Bischoff's spotlessred corvette, and I picked a bigold greasy green bugger and wiped
01:16:04it across his windshield, just so he'd have somethingto look at on the way back.And they're in there, 10 minutes orwhatever, not long.And I said, Bischoff comes out and gets his carand drives off, not says anything, only walksback up. What happened?He said, well, we walked
01:16:20in there. I said, all right, Eric, everybody wants to know.Everybody was to you and me. What's going to happen? Everybody wants to know.What are you got to say to me? Like, daring him tofire him. And he said,he said, only said, that Bischoffsaid, well, we think.you're using very poor judgment in speaking to Jim Cornett and only said well I'm just speaking to himbecause he's going to give my kid a job you know my kid Bryant my son the one that you've
01:16:47fucking cut or fired or you know forgot about or whatever terminology used and he says so he's gonnahe's gonna be wrestling for him we're out there in the parking lot uh on my own time I'm at lunchwhatever just get it over with motherfucker and he said Bishop just well blah blah blah and he changed somesubject and he said something about something elseand then he said well wellwe'll talk about this further and got back in the fucking carand took off and then the next day called him on the phoneand fired him maybe it was two days later it was imminent
01:17:21so when bishop was downtown and oly was out in fucking peachtreecity or wherever he called him well only i was we're giving you your noticewell what took you so long was the the uh comeback that i heard from olybecauseand then Oly ended upcoming upand doing, I think,two of my live TV tapings,
01:17:40at least the first one,maybe the first twothat Bryant was on.Well, Oley Anderson,certainly one of the mostunique charactersin wrestling history,one of the most
01:17:51influential charactersfor a generationbehind the scenes.And I guess just to settle itand end it with this,should he be in a wrestlingHall of Fame?I don't see how he cannot be.
01:18:05I mean, again, if there's a wrestlingHall of Fame and you've got a cap of 20 wrestlersfrom all history, then maybe not.But if it's a wrestling Hall of Fame open to anyonewho's Hall of Fame level, I don't see howanybody... Again, he was making money and featured in mainevents as a wrestler and a booker that dwarfedsome of the biggest stars that are currently in the Hall of Fame
01:18:32that were just territory wrestlers.and he achieved something that few people in the territory days were able to accomplish,really ownership of part or all or some of a territory,while at the same time doing something else,doing it by doing something else that almost nobody was able to do,which is make one move after you break into business, make one move,and pretty much are able to work that part of the country for the rest of your careerand retire off of it.
01:19:04So there's multipleunique or very raremilestones that O'Lean and to benot only a main event wrestlerthat drew money with their matcheswith Flair and Valentine were what putFlair and Valentine in the Carolinas on the mapin a heel, heel program.
01:19:24Not only to be great in the ring,but to be even better on the microphoneand to do all this stuff behind the scenesand to have given either their first job or the okay to begin training of themor their first national exposure or their first main event spots toeverybody from the road wars to Rick Rood fucking on and onyou know how can he not be I don't I don't even understand the discussion herewe're talking about putting Kenny Olivier at the fucking Hall of Fame and old
01:20:00Lee Anderson somehow has to clear a bar as he told the other guy.Perhaps you just don't understand what success looks like in this fucking business.Well, there it is our look at the life and career of Holy Anderson.And I guess to sum it all up, as only would say, go fuck yourself.Go fuck yourself.Well, Jim, before we move completely on from the sad news of passings and wrestling,and another wrestling death this past week, someone you weren't around too much, if ever,but Virgil
01:20:31Some yesVirgil whomost famously was the bodyguardfor Ted DiBiasethen had a baby face run after thatthey later brought him into the NWOand WCW as Vincentand then they changed his name to Shane
01:20:47he was also Curly Billand Soul Man Jones I thinkand... No no, Soul Train JonesSoul Train JonesThat's rightBut Virgil just passed awayany thoughts on this, certainly a memorable characterfrom the height of WWF.
01:21:03Do you know who first told me about,his name was Mike Jones?So do you know who first told me about Mike Jones?Based on where he was working,my guess is going to be Randy Hales.Brian Hildebrand.Oh, really?Brian Hildebrand, Mark Curtis,
01:21:21for those of you 90s WCW referee fans,because he was from Pittsburgh.and that was the period of time, what was it, 86, 87, where several of the guys from the Pittsburgh, West Virginia independent scene that was kind of rudimentary at the time got booked in Memphis.There was Virgil, became Soul Train Jones, and they dressed him up in the red, white, and blue striped Apollo Creed gimmick from Rock.and he was a baby face and then a guy named Goliath who was I don't remember what his real name wasbut he was like almost seven feet tall and long hair.Goliath got a spot and also downtown Bruno.Bruno Lauer because Bruno had been working as an indie manager also up in that area and he
01:22:22was Brian Hildebrand's nemesis, right?Brian was always wanting to, you know, to get in a territory andBruno beat him to it, got into Memphis.Bruno could do a bit better promo thanBrian Hildbrand.Brian was a better worker, but he was too small.Nevertheless, he said, yeah,they're calling him Soul Train Jones,
01:22:42and he's doing an Apollo Creed gimmick in Memphis.And, of course, then I got the tapes from, you know,most of the territories on a monthly basis,and so I saw him and noticed,noticed him more because Brian had talked about him.but you know you could tell he was he was green and he was a good athletebut that was a period of time in Memphis where not too much was going to get overbut he did a good job with it and was there probably longer than those other guys
01:23:11and then that's finally then after that is when he got thethe spot as Virgil which as you know everybody has since knownit wasn't a common knowledge then to the average fan going to the showsbut they were trying to fuck with Dusty.Dusty was the Booker for the opposition,so we're going to make the Stoge,the servant, the butler,we're going to give him your real name.
01:23:39And so then when the shoe was on the other footand he went to work for WCWin, what, 99 or whatever it was,for the NWO,it was, they named him Vincent,after Vince McMahon,because he was the NWO's flunky guy.He really was the perfect guy in the role of Ted DiBiasey's bodyguard.
01:24:04Because, I mean, anyone could have been slotted in there, but he portrayed it the right way.He never talked.He always gave you like a stern look.He always got his ass kicked.But he still came back and you thought he may be tough because he was a big jacked-up guy.Yeah.But he was perfect in that role.And they worked at, you know, when they were out in public too, traveling together.
01:24:25he would open the doors and carried the bagsand well that's the thing as some people were sayingyou know on the internet after he passed away is thathe would do whateveryou know when he showed up at a showwhat you want me to do whatever you want me to doas long as I get paid right and theyou know getting paid was a part of
01:24:43most of his modern eraor latter day fame in the links that hewould go to to sell his gimmicks or merchandiseor selfies orif somebody you know on the busasked him for a picture, he'd charge him for it, whatever.But he committed.He would always give 100% whatever he was doing,
01:25:04and he didn't mind, you know,having people see him carrying Ted DiBiase's bags at the hotelbecause it made the gimmick.It made the gimmick, and it worked,and they were together for a few years,and then they finally built him up with Roddy Piper behind himto turn Babyface to have enough of Ted DiBi Biasi'ssudden-for-y-y-y-y-sugnobes.
01:25:25abusiveness. He was never really abusive to Virgil. And then all of a sudden he became a realjerk. Yeah. And then Virgil, I turned baby face and won the million dollar belt. And it'seasy to forget now and he certainly became a comedy figure later in life, but on purpose,on social media and stuff. But for a brief moment there, it worked and they got him over. And hewas really over as a, you know, upper midcard baby face holding a WWE million dollar belt title.And, you know, that's why I was going to say, I was briefly around him because as I do recall, I sound like, you know, the guy, the voiceover guy on fucking Iron Chef. As I recall, he was there when we first started making shots in 93.Virgil was still there or had maybe he'd left before, but he was there.No, he finished up, I think the last night was Royal Rumble 94, the beginning of 94. So he was there. Yeah. So he, you know, he was there. And I mean, you know, one.
01:26:25once a month, we'd go up for TV.I never sat down and had any in-depth conversations with him,but he seemed like a, you know,halfway normal, rational person for this business.Admittedly, the bar is low.But then I really, you know,I've never spent any time around him since then.Maybe we were, you know, at the same convention at some point or whatever.
01:26:46But then in recent years,I would hear the tweets about the Olive Garden meat sauceor, you know, whatever.I mean, and, you know,we had a series of videos where you and himor you and whoever runs his social mediawere in a very funny fashiongoing back and forth.
01:27:06Well, that's what I'm trying,I don't even remember the details now,to be honest with you about that.You reminded me of it earlier,but that's what I was going to ask you,was this a case where,I hate to speak ill of anybody,but was it like the Iron Sheik
01:27:21for a while there?Maybe he wasn't, you know, all right?and people were taking advantage of it,or was it just, did he just decide to become a wacky personin his, you know, latter years for the social media thing?And I don't even, like I said, I find it hard to believe anybody my agesitting there tweeting wacky things to the kids out thereor, you know, texting or whatever.
01:27:45But I do know that some of the guys have people that run their social mediaso they don't have to fuck with it, and they say outlandish things.But what do we know was Virgil serious with all this?Do we know yet to this day?Or was he pulling all of our puds, as they say?I don't know what he pulled, but it was certainly a social media team and it was a concerted campaign.Bizarar at times.I'm not exactly sure where they were going, but it got people talking about it.
01:28:16I just read something.It may have been Greg Oliver's column and slam.I don't know.I don't remember off top of my head.and I was blown away by this.It said after wrestling, he went back and got a degree in mathematics.What?Yeah, I was like, what?
01:28:32Where did that come from?I never heard that.Well, no, he was always good with his money.No wonder he could count so well.He wanted to make sure he got to turn to profit on those selfies or whatever.But no, we hate to hear that.He learned a lot about counting with Ted DiBiase's money in his hands.Oh, there you go.
01:28:51But no, we hate to hear that.never any personal issues or anything with Virgil and, you know, we wish his family and friendsand who got custody of the Soul Train Jones outfit.I might be interested.Or the meat sauce.We need to find out more details.You know, they never got to actually market his own brand of meat sauce.Is that what they were going for?
01:29:13Well, I think the problem was the holdup was WWE owning the rights editor named Virgil.Because without the name, what are you?Just Mike Jones's sauce probably wouldn't have.to, hey, would you like to get some of Mike Jones's sauce?Where?Well, right over here at the store.Well, of course, like you said, we send our thoughts to the friends and family and fans ofVirgil and of course, and fans of all meat sauces around the world.
01:29:43And the Olive Garden.Can we talk about, we got to say, I know it's your program, but at the top of the program here,I want to recognize we just heard on.the inner webs this morningthat Jackie Crockett passed away.The black sheep of the Crockett family,he was the happy, entertaining one.He was totally unlike the rest of it was a rib.
01:30:08I'll explain who Jackie was to us in a minute,but Jackie Crockett was the brother ofobviously Jimmy Jr. and David and Francisand the son of Jim Crockett's son,senior who started the dynasty.And when they owned Crockett promotions,Jimmy was obviously, he was the president,and David was, I'm sure he had some corporate title of vice president or something,
01:30:39but everybody knew David as the TV announcer.After his brief foray into wrestling that did not make it out of his rookie year,David Finley.David Finley, that was his middle name, David.Finley Crocket, David F. Crockett.So anyway,and Francis, as we all know,worked in merchandise
01:31:02and was kind of in charge of the ballparkthat they owned in Charlotte, the Charlotte O's,the baseball team, andthat type of thing. And Jackiehadprobably the most funjob with the least amount of responsibility,which is that's exactly the way
01:31:18he wanted it. He wasthe head cameraman,the fucking handheld floor camera guyat all of thesyndicated TV tapingsthat Crockett did in the Carolina's going backto before they got on TBSand you know when they
01:31:34got the Nemo truck NationalElectronics Mobile Operationthat second hand TV truck that they woulddrive up to Sillsby,North Carolina and shoot TV.Andthat way Jackie couldinteract the most with the boys.
01:31:50Whereas I'm not saying,that Jimmy and David didn't want to be around a boys,but Jimmy andDavid also, everybodyknows, they were dryas personalities. They were reserved.They weren't coming in,throwing the door open
01:32:06and fucking laughing out loud,hey, you fucking idiot, what thefucking, or, you know, just, hey,how you doing? They werevery reserved. Jimmy was positivelydry.And they always, you'dsee, if Jimmy did
01:32:22come to the matches, he'd still be wearing a jacket, even if he didn't have a tie on and acollared shirt, and, you know, David's always dressing up because he's the TV announcer. You only sawJackie Crockett wearing a tie. When he was forced into being fill-in interview guy, if Chavani wassomewhere else, right? And he had to do a couple of stand-up interviews. Otherwise, he was notwearing a suit. He was not wearing a tie. I've never seen a motherfucker sweat so much in my life as he didat those syndicated TV tapings in Spartanburgand all those other places in the middle of summerand he's carrying that fucking camera around
01:33:02and he's got shorts on and he's fuckingjust looked like you poured a bucket of water over his headand loved every minute of it.He had a ball doing that shitand he'd be back in the locker roomand fucking around with the guysbecause like I said he was the black sheep.He was the one that was...
01:33:19It was like Owen Hart and the Hart familyHe was the one with a sense of humor.And I'm not knocking David and Jimmy when I say that.But that's what all the boys thought, well, they're so,they're the epitome of bland white men.And here's fucking Jackie.Right?And they were,
01:33:36David and Jimmy were married and settled down.And Jackie was single.And he went out with the boys to plum crazy and got as drunk as they did andfucking chased women.And I guess he kept the cameraman job.even through the Turner era and the guy who was,he was still there doing it when I left,but I mean years after that, I guess.
01:34:02And, you know, he just, he loved that shit,and he was the fucking personality.And if there was a camera shot to be had of any voluptuous female in the audience anywhere,whether it be a, you know, fucking Rex.or one of the TBS NBA arenas.He would find it for the enjoyment of the...He'd focus his camera in such a wayas everybody's watching him focus his camera
01:34:34and meanwhile the locker room is getting entertainment.He just...You know, he was fucking an over-the-top personality.He could have been one of the boyshad he chosen to go in thatand I don't know about his athletic ability,but had he chosen to go into that,he could have been one of the boys. I hate to hear that. But, you know, it's crazy, too,
01:34:55when you think about like 1980s, WWF, no one ever says, oh, yeah, my favorite camera guy was,no one knows who any of those guys were. No one knows any of their names. But with Jackie Crockett,and knowing that Crockett promotions was a relatively small crew overall as a company and thenlater on just, you know, talking about the production team, think about how many classic momentswere seen through his lens. Oh, yeah. And he, he,was the one that was smartest to the business.I mean, all of our, it was mostly the same crew.You know, TBS was a different crew and a different setup.
01:35:32They used the TBS personnel there, and a lot of them were regulars, also most of them.But with Crockett's syndicated TV in the TV truck, it was same director, Wayne Daniel,and his same audio guys most times, same camera people.but Jackie was the smartest one to the businessand the one that could justbop in and out and talk openlyand you know what are you doing or you knowyou would go up to him and say well we're going to shoot this
01:35:57and and uhbecause there were really no production meetingswith the actual production crew in those daysand the you know the the wrestling endexcept for you know if if dusty knewah shit they might miss this he'd tell jj go make surethey don't miss this and otherwise it wasit was a fucking free-for-all.
01:36:19But Jackie was the one that was most important,but he could get away with shit too.Because, like, if we were in a squash matchin some little gym or whatever,Jackie would come up next to me.I'm on the floor, managing the midnight,and he'd get next to me with the camera,and he's got the camera on his right shoulder,
01:36:40and he's holding it with his right hand, right?With his left hand, he's fucking eithertrying to goose me with his thumb and the ribsor pinching me in the ass or whatever to get me to fucking jump.And at one point, this made television.The director took it.He crowded me so much in the corner where I look over my shoulder to the left.He standing right there.
01:37:00I look over his shoulder.I finally reach in my pocket.I've got like 20 bucks I was going to take to the concession stand and get hot dogs later.And I read, I pull out the 20 bucks and I'm like, here, please, leave me alone.And his hand reaches out on camera and takes the money.from me and then backs away from mebecause what are they going to do?Fire the boss's brother, right?
01:37:24But it was just,it broke up the monotonydoing shit like that.And, you know, but then with the big stuff also,whether it be the fireball with Ronnie Garvinor those flare and steamboatyou know, showdowns or, you know,whatever, he was there through
01:37:44from the, well,from the beginning because he was a member of the family,but he'd worked there from the 70sthrough that mid-Atlantic glory years,the expansion, the whole nine yards all the way through TBS.And it was, again, just the irascible one.Well, that is the tribute to the irascible one in the show.Jackie Crockett.
01:38:08We have some sad news to report.What's up now?News being broken by Greg Oliver of slam wrestling.comor dot net, excuse me.slam wrestling.netPromoter Al Zinkhas passed awayat the age of 91.
01:38:25Oh gee, I thoughtit was going to be a rib of some kindor you were going to do something.I would never make a joke about such a subject.What's wrong with you?Never make a joke about the death of Al Zincat 91 years old.Good heavens.
01:38:38And in Nova Scotia too,we're up there inwas he Nova Scotia,Newfoundland,New Brunswick?What part?of the world wasthe maritime.
01:38:49The Maritimes.The Maritimes.I think that's a safe way to a...Well, is that a whole group of...That's what they call the whole group of the area there?Hold on.It goes into here his...I could see your Canadian geography is as good as my...
01:39:02I was up there a time or two, but not often.My Canadian geography I have learned is comprised of only the territories that were good.They have a...Well, now, come on.If it's any of the ones that are just like there's no footage or you don't hear any good thingsabout...I kind of don't know the geography as well.Al Zink was the one that Dennis Condry went up with Phil Hickerson and David Schultz
01:39:24and the Gibson brothers from Tennessee summer of 77, right?Was that that was Al Zinc or was that Emil Dupree?I bet you it was Al Zinc.I'm not sure, but did Al Zinc?I'm going through this article here.They left after like two weeks and came back to Tennessee after causing riots and fearing for their lives.Schultz had to bail him out with a hockey stick.He was the WCWNWA promoter from 89 to 93 in Canada.
01:39:51Well, it's nice of them to bring back a legend at that point in time.So did you meet him when you actually worked for WCW in Canada?I don't remember.Maybe he was the good God, was he the promoter of the show that was gassed?That was gassed.Remember?You know what I'm talking about, don't you?I'm not sure.
01:40:12We had a goddamn loop up there for WCWCWCW.DW in 1990that was somewhere in Nova Scotiasomewhere at St. John. There's two St.John's. We were in bothof them, I believe.And the first town drewlike shit. We're talking 500
01:40:29people. It'd go all that way.And the second town drewlike shit. And if there was four of them,the third town drew like shit. And thelast one we were going to do before weleft fucking to come home,we get to that oneand there's a giant
01:40:45line outside the building fora breast and wind it around the sidewalk.And oh, wow, okay, onefucking show we're going togoddamn do up here that's worth a shit, right?And the hotel is right acrossthe street. And we checkin the hotel and I'm looking out the window.
01:41:03I'm going, that line had moved.Well, you know, we still got a few minutes.You'd think maybe they'd open up the doors a coupleminutes early because there's all these people standingthere. But we got to walk over. It's an hourbefore Showtime, right?We walk over there,and as we're about halfway there,
01:41:21I think it was David Crockett.I can't remember, but it may be.Nevertheless, whoever was thererepresenting the WCWoffice startedand said, go back, go back, what?It was a hockey arena, right?And they had a leak in the
01:41:39in the gas, or in thegas, in the ice freezingprocess of a professionaltype of hockey apparatussomehow there's ammonia involvedrightand they've had a leakand the whole building
01:41:58they says filled up with ityou know what ammonia smells likeI mean it'll burn your noseif you just stick it over the bottleright imagine if there's a leak from his shitfrom tanksandhe said they've got a bunch of big fans on
01:42:14just go back to the hotel for about a half an hourcome back at 7.30. Okay.So 30 minutes later, we go back,we walk back over there again.And we went inbecause Bobby's like, well, come on, we better get ready.You know, Bobby is like, we got to work.We're defying death here.
01:42:35We walked in the building.They still had the fans on there, still said,oh, it'll clear out, it'll clear out.Your eyes start watering.You fucking nose hurts.And Bobby's sitting down his bag and starttake his fucking shoes off.I'm like, Bobby, don't start getting dressed.
01:42:51This does not look like it.They couldn't let the people in at that point still.And we're in there about to get dressed, right?And so finally, about 15 or 20 minutes later,Sainter heads prevailed and they canceled it.We can't bring the entire audience in hereand gas them, even if we can gas the wrestlers.So they canceled the show.
01:43:14on the way to the fucking airport the next morning,pick up the newspaper,and open up and I've still got the clipping.I think it was in the Midnight Express scrapbook.The headline in the local newspaperwas wrestling show gassed.I said it was a mercy killing.And we came back home never to return to Canada for WCW.
01:43:35Well, as it says here in the article,when the Toronto promotion run by Jack Tunneyswitched allegiances from the NWA and Jim Crocker promotionsto the expanding World Wrestling Federation,Zink saw an opportunity.It was Zink who ran WCW shows in Toronto and in the Maritimes.Zink'd work with them from 89 to 93.Here's a quote.
01:43:57I was always a straight shooter.I almost had Maple Leaf Gardens.I was so close.I was ready to undercut Tunney.And then Shane Zink, his son.Sounds like a real nice guy.Here's the story.I got to end with this.
01:44:13I don't know why this gets me.His son, Shane Zink,can still recall the way his father would get in trouble as a promoter.Here's a quote.I used to go to the wrestling with him in the circuits.And every once in a while, I'd get a call over the PA system.Shane Zink, please go to the office.I'd only be a kid like eight, nine,
01:44:37and he'd be beating up five or six guyswho attacked him.and I mean he cleaned the house on them.He was a real scrapper.Who the fuck is beating up the promoter?Is he five or six guys?Why did he call a son there to see this?I mean, I know that the sheets weren't as prevalent back in the circuits days,
01:45:02but when the fuck did this take place?Or could it be, hey, guys, I'm going to call my son to the office.Let me make it look like I'm kicking a shit out of all six of you at once.Well, because let me tell you, we did go to Toronto once for WCW in 1990,and it wasn't at Maple Leaf Gardens.It was at some college gym in Toronto,and I recall it being a beautiful drive down by the lakeshore to this buildingthat there was absolutely nobody in.
01:45:39And so, I'm...I don't want to, I hate to speak ill of the deceased promotional abilities, but there was,I think maybe the WWE got away from him and he got with WCW, you know, for a reason.But nevertheless, he lived a long full life.He had a big falling out with Rudy K.According to Zink, Rudy had no business head, that's a quote.he was soft with the boys, but I wasn't, especially the prelim guys.I want my openers to be as good as my main eventers.
01:46:21It all fell apart.Here's a quote.Rudy double-crossed me when I was in the hospital, said Zink, who had fallen off a horse.What?When I was in the hospital, Rudy asked for checks, and like a fool, I signed them.I think I want to learn more about Al Zinc, sounds like a fascinating life.Oh, and folks, if we've said it once, we've said it a million times, never sign checksafter you fall off a horse.
01:46:49It's like operating heavy machinery.You can't be doing that.Make sure when you're jumped by six people, call your nine-year-old son to come save you.Yes, on the PA system.Don't call security.Don't call the police.Get on the PA system.See, we can find this man's son.
01:47:09He'll stop wailing on these mothers.Oh my God. All right.We haven't fun yet. Come on.Well, yeah, over the man's death. We're trying to have fun over a man'sdecedence here. No, we're not having fun over that. We're having fun celebrating his life.Like when he kicked the shit out of a bunch of people all at once in front of his child.And apparently the PA announcer. Well, before we go any further with the show today,We want to explain we're a day late because of a variety of commitments that we both had.
01:47:49But also it was, I guess what, maybe 36 hours ago now, that Brian, you got the news that a friend of both of ours, Scott Cornish, who has been, you know, featured many times on the 605 Super podcast and we've mentioned on the show here and have both known for 30 years had passed.way and it was um it was it was not a it was a sudden thing it wasn't expected because he hadn'tbeen you know ill for a long time but we understand it last week he caught COVID and complicationsfrom that and you've reminded me I kind of thought that but you told me for sure right beforewe went on the air that even though he's become one of your bestbest friends throughout the last 30 years, you guys actually met at Fan Week at Smoky Mountainthe same year that I met you.Yeah.
01:48:55Smoky Mountain Wrestling Fan Week, if you ever, you know, I'm talking to you, the person whoactually put it together, well, you know, with respect to Brian Hildebrand, you created a lotof friendships.You put a lot of us together, the self-enointed smart fans from around the country, aroundthe world in some cases and created friendships. And I met you and I met Scott Cornish. And I've beenfriends with both of you 30 years. I met Stacey, your wife before she was your wife. Yes.At Smoky Man Wrestling Fan Week. I met, you know, someone who's not with us anymore, but I thinkof, because me and Scott were both really good friends with him, Harry White at Fan Week, John McAdam,
01:49:35who does his show on Arcadian Vanguard. I met him at Fan Week. I met people, Dave Lane, who's still out there.on Twitter, great photographer.I met him at Fan Week.There are so many of us who met there that have retained a special bond and a friendship.And like you said, with Scott, one of my best friends, someone who's a major influence onme and everything I like, music and books and movies and comedy and humor, a lot of itjust comes from long conversations on the phone with him.We used to do that, conversations on the phone for hours and hours and hours.
01:50:12and correspondence via letter,you know, and eventually, you know, on the computertalking back and forth,but I've had so many adventures with him in wrestlingand so many in music.I went to see, with him, I went to see Iggy and the Stooges.I went to see Hazel Atkinswith the demolition dollrods
01:50:30and American death ray.I went to see the dictators,who I mentioned before,with the Star Spangles opening up for them.I saw a question mark in the Mysteriansat Lincoln Center.No.Yeah.
01:50:41at Lincoln Center.I mean, it was bizarre.The way he was dressed was bizarre, Mr. Question Mark himself.But that was the kind of friend Scott was.When I would go down to the East Village,I'd take the train in from Long Beach,he would come down from upstate New York.And we'd go to the Second Avenue deli.
01:50:58We'd go buy some zines.And we'd just have a good time.And, you know, I'm doing my best to just be upbeat right nowbecause I've been so down and I've cried my eyes outthe last couple of days because it was sudden.He caught COVID.He was just out doing what he always does, going to shows.He didn't have a car.
01:51:16He didn't drive.And he found a way to go everywhere for wrestling, for music, for comedy.It was incredible.And, you know, he always was great at having stories and telling them in the funniest way.I never got to go to OVW, but he did with Greg Greenland.And I would hear all about the stories from when they would go down there.Yeah, they would come to...Well, I think there was a picture posted on Twitter, I believe, somewhere of him standing in front of the old Davis Arena over in Jeffersonville.
01:51:53And Greg used to come to a lot of the Six Flags events we'd do outdoors, and Scott came to some of those.And, you know, I honestly, until you said that, did not know that he didn't drive at all.but he was everywhere.He was like teleported from place to placebecause he would always see him popping up.He was very devoted.He was in Amaroa with me,me, him, Bob Barnett and Harry White in a car
01:52:22driving at Terry Funk's ranch.I mean, he was someone who went everywhereand did so many different things.And, you know, the friendship he had with me,it's amazing seeing since he passedjust a couple days on his Facebook page,so many of his friends from his other worlds.have been posting tributes, and it's amazing just how many people he affected.
01:52:44A positive energy, always hysterical, and a very giving friend.I have here, I posted some of these, Jim.You may get a kick out of some of them.In the old days, kids, we used to trade tapes.And with the tapes, sometimes you would send a letter.Imagine that.Sometimes the letter would be bland.Here's what I sent you.
01:53:04Please send me this.Other times, you would get some humor out of it.and Scott was good with thatLet me read you a couple of these JimThis is actually from the end of oneThis is right after WCW Uncensored in 1996Late Breaking NewsHulk Hogan's next five handpicked opponents
01:53:23From the Dungeon of DoomOne Ted RcidiTwo curly MoeThree Uncle ElmerDead four years now and still a better wrestler than Jeep SwensonFourEd Leslie's latest incarnationa shoot angle as the untalented suckass
01:53:41and five Bill Casmeyerwhat you gonna doand then here's another oneI'll read you this one you may get a kick out of ithe sent me VHS tape of the Young Oneswhich was a British comedy I always was a big fan ofit used to be on MTVpeople in England are always shocked anyone here
01:53:59knows it it was on MTV and then it was on videotapea cult favorite BrianI know how much you enjoy the young onesjust like Jerry LawlerSo here you goOh, my, oh, geez.Oh, that was stiff.So here you go.
01:54:15These are two of the, I believe, four volumesreleased so far. I haven't seen thesein years since they first aired in this country on MTV.Enjoy.Thanks for the great mixtapes.Some wild, wacky stuff.If you do another one,you might include one
01:54:31Brody Luger Cage Match.I really want to see this,even if the quality isn't top-notch.just to see it, you know?Two, Missy Hyatt porn video.Same reason.Three.Now, wait a way, we have to say that that was later proven to be a rumor, correct?
01:54:53To not get sued or something?He just, I'm just reading what was written here.Oh, I thought, I thought, there was it one time?There was a rumor that.That's what prompted this.All right, now I'm going to stop for a second.I had the master tape, I believe, of Brody Lugar, the cage match that became famous becauseBrody stopped cooperating with Lugar right before he worked for Crockett.
01:55:13The Missy Hyatt porn video was a rumor that went around in 97, I want to say, becauseMissy was living in Manhattan.And around that period of time, I forget the name of the channel, because I didn't livein Manhattan, but I spent a lot of time there.But the Public Access Channel had like porno programming.Robin Bird and various things.And there was a video of two women, nude, going at it.And the rumor was it was Missy Hyatt.
01:55:47And I may have procured a copy of the tape.And the quality sucks.So there was no, I couldn't tell, to be honest with you.It could be, it couldn't be.I'm still to this day, not certain.But if she says it wasn't her, I'll believe her.I couldn't figure it out.Well, there you again. And after intensive study, you're right. Okay.
01:56:08Three, the Flare-Lawr-W-Hart-W-M-C challenge angle. I'm not sure whether I've ever seen this, but I've sure heard about it. And by the way, I had a copy of that I got from you. Thank you very much.You're welcome even less.Four, Terry Funk's chainsaw interview and five canvas cavity highlights. Who says I'm sick?Hey, it looks like the Sportatorium isn't closing after all. Let's go.The big Christmas night card features the returning Killer Brooks versus Frogman LeBlank in a cage match with the goon as special referee.If LeBlanc wins, he gets five minutes with baboose.Also, a big $35 battle royal.Black Bart versus Bob Sweetan's Ghost.
01:56:54And Sebastian is rumored to be making a surprise appearance selling programs.Talk to you soon.Scott Cornish.Check out my new website,www.laino's a dick.comAnd folks, I apologizeif you've just wandered by this programin the last couple of weeks,
01:57:13but these names from our past are just hilarious to us.He sent one here too.This is the last one I'll read on the air.But it was after I sent himto Heroes of World Class documentary,he wrote Mickey Grant invented everything.But then he sent a copy of,I'm guessing this,
01:57:31if it's not ICW, it must be ICW, I was going to say it would be the precursor in Knoxville.It's a card that has a challenge match and he wrote the best stip ever.Ronnie Garvin puts up $5,000 versus Don Diamond who puts up a Barry Manilow album if he shows up.Best stipulation ever.Five grand versus a Barry Manilow album.Because if it is, Don Diamond, if he had had long,fluffy flowing blonde hair instead of that kind of curlyperm, nondescript head of hair that he had,
01:58:09you would have thought that he was Barry Manilow, except if he would havesaying, then he wouldn't have thought that.Oh, I didn't even put two and two together about that.The resemblance, now that you say it, I totally see it.Yes, it looked dead like him.If you put a Barry Manelow wig on Don Diamond, you'd have Barry Manilow.But nobody knows now what the fuck Don Diamond looks like,so it wouldn't be funny.
01:58:30His career never really took off past a certain point.Oh, it took off all right.It took about 35 years off.But this is the kind of stuff he would send me.And again, you know, just a wonderful friendship over 30 years.And I'm very, very happy.I guess one of the things I'm grateful for is that since I started having him comeon the 605 Super Podcast in 2016, he developed the following.
01:58:55He developed people who enjoyed him and his humor the way I did.and he made a lot of friends through the show.And that's one of the things I'm always proudest of with 605 and with the cult of cornet.The amount of people who had never met each other, very similar to what you did with Fan Week,people who never met each other who somehow, and in this case online, developed friendshipsthrough the programs, through the shows, through the community.And that's one of the things I'm really proud of.Yeah, the shows are really successful, but there's people who have best friends right now because of the show.
01:59:26And like I said, everyone's feeling it, everyone who knew him,the amount of people who only heard him and know how much he meant to everyonewho have reached out has been tremendous.And lovely guy, one of the best friends I've ever had.And I'm going to miss him tremendously.And his input into things was something I always wanted,because he had the most interesting takes and views on things.And it always made me laugh.
01:59:49But tremendous guy.And everyone, you know, anyone who ever heard him,please think of something he said that made you laugh.And again, he was, I think, did you say 63?64, I believe, but I got to double check.64.And he might appreciate this because I, you said that before we started recording.You said, well, yeah, I've met you, meaning me at the exact same time and I met Scott.
02:00:21And me and Scott are both, I'm going to be 63 this year.we're both about to same age.I said, I hope you're not like a fucking nursing home cat.What does that mean?And what does that mean?No, the legend of the, and there's been more than one,but you hear the stories of the cat at the nursing homethat goes and curls up next to the next to the old folks to go.
02:00:50And they can predict these things,and they're comforting them in their last moments or whatever.I hope you're not a nursing home cat.I hope so too.That sounds awful.You know, it's funny.I just thought of something.I knew who he was before I went to fan week
02:01:05because I had seen some of the videos coming out of 93 fan week, the first one.And there was a series of mock promos leading to a press conferenceto build up J.R. Benson versus Dr. Tom Pritchard.Yes, yes.In an electrified, no rope, barbed wire over a bed of infarmosis.hyperdermic needles match with the loser having to spend 48 hours with Dr. Mike Lano.Yes, I remember.I remember that.
02:01:32I remember that shoot.Harry White did a promo and Dave Meltzer actually walks on a hands of a piece of paper andwalks out and he goes, this just in the observer lifting five stars, seven and a half starsfor this match, which all things considered is funny.But they're doing this mock press conference and it's J.R. Benson with Kevin Lawlerand it's Tom Pritchard or Chris Candidoand they start taking questions from the audiencewhich were all the other fans, you know, the smart fans,
02:02:00whatever there were, 30 people.And Scott just out of nowhere.And I always remembered that he raised his hand.Everyone's making noise and everyone gets quiet.He goes, Dr. Pritchard, Dr. Pritchard.And everyone doesn't know what he's going to say.This wasn't planned.He goes, and this is the summer in 93,
02:02:15Luger Yokozuna.Dr. Pritchard, what about the commission rulingyou're going to have to wear a protective padover the steel plate in your head?And you can tell for Don Pritchin had no idea how to answer that.The room broke up.It was such a brilliant, smart, fuddy, quick thing.And, yeah, I'm really going to miss him.
02:02:33Greatest guy.Just the greatest guy.Big influence on me and who I am.So, Scott, we've got you to blame for much of this.Got you to blame, too.Well, hey, I wasn't there.No, but.He was with me in Louisville in 95.
02:02:53for the famous riot.The last great night of K-Fave in Louisvillewhen the fans decided they wanted to beat us upbecause they couldn't beat up the wrestlers.See, he could get more heat than anybody.We got out of there in time, but nevertheless.But yes, we will miss Scott.And that's, again, something sudden and shocking.
02:03:14So, but yes, as we said,we're going to miss Scott and his contributions to him.and you know the the community and it's not like something again that we were prepared for becauseit was so sudden so it's you know kind of a shock with that but can I give you some positive newsthat we've done something good as a community for some people positive news he getting outa showbiz oh come on now hennie youngman what the fuck here but then did you notice umand it was very well donewhat I'm about to talk about
02:03:53it was very well doneand very well editedthe Sika videoand certainly called forbut I had the first reaction I had when it kept goingwas if the bloodline angle wasn't on topwould Sika have gotten a longer tribute videothan Bruno Samertino or Roddy Piper
02:04:14than anyone in the history of wrestlingI thinkYes, because they gave him close to five minutes,which, and again, I'm not arguing,but considering their prior track record,it was more lengthy than normal.But they have a lot of the footageand obviously had comments in the can
02:04:35about a variety of their Hall of Famersfrom some of the top talents,so they were able to put this together,but they went the whole way with it.the marquee at the gardenhad the Sika tributelit up when people aregoing through the
02:04:52train station therewith Penn Stationand this big long videoand you knowa lot of acknowledgement of itand all of their social media soI think the bloodlineangle certainly helped
02:05:08spark interest inin Afa andSika and the whole family at this point.There's no other reason to think that they would have made such an effort to Patriot.Such an effort.But it was nice.It was very nice.I'm not saying it wasn't, but like you said, I can't think, you know, Randy Savage had a few
02:05:30minute long video.Yeah.And he was a main eventer.You know, Sika got a bigger video than, he got the thing in front of Madison Square.Then Piper, then Bruno, then, you know.I mean, anybody.It's a, it's, it stands out.I'll just say that.
02:05:46But anyway, but that's a thing.And, you know, honestly, I had much more interaction personally with Afa than I ever had withSika because Afa at the time that I was, you know, in the office up there and living up there,Afa was based out of Allentown, or was a small suburb, but near Allentown, Pennsylvania.Yeah.And whereas Sika had already moved back in the 80s.to Pensacola.So I had met Sika a few times,
02:06:19but again,Offa is one I had more interaction with,and he's been in ill healthover the past few monthsfrom what we've heard.So with back surgeryand some other things,so I hope he's doing well.
02:06:33But, you know,the Wild Samoans for,what, 15 years,were one of the top teamsacross the country.They went almost,almost everywhere.They didn't work for Vern.
02:06:48They didn't work for Jerry Jarrett in Tennessee.I never got to see them in person during their day.But they were big on the West Coast in San Francisco, obviously.They were on top numerous times in New York.They worked Georgia for a period of time.They were mid-south.Did they make Texas?I can't remember.
02:07:10They'd get to Dallas on that run.Probably not.And I think they did, no, they didn't work for Crockett in the Carolinas because they worked for the IWA in the 70s, right?The opposition group.They were the islanders, right?Yes.With, I think for a while, Saul Weingroff, if I'm not mistaken.Or was that the other team of Samoa?
02:07:35See, I'm confused if there was the other islanders.That was T.O. and Reno, which apparently there was some heat over when they started using,similar names, butanyway, they were a top tagteam and drewa lot of money, especially in the Northeast.And as we knowfrom Young Rock, one of their
02:07:56big programs was withRocky Johnson and Tony Atlas,right? Was that their last run astag team champions?That was their last run as tag team champions.I wouldn't say that was one of their biggest runs,because Rocky and Tony Atlas, because they hatedeach other, didn't actually team up that much.
02:08:13But they turnedbabyface after that.They had a brief baby face run,including one of my favorite matches.If anyone ever wants to see it, it's ridiculous, but I love it.October 84, Offa versus Dick Murdochat Madison Square Garden. It's on their peacock.I can imagine.
02:08:30But then they left and they workedpro wrestling USA, I think it was,at the Meadowlands, and then Sika came back.And Sika had another run as a singleas part of, remember when King Curtis came in as a manager, The Wizard?Yes.Well, he was part of that, and he even had a main event match with Hulk Hogan,and that was kind of the end of them.
02:08:54But, you know, the Mid-South run, there's a lot of footage of,or at least there's some footage of, the WWF run,which is kind of a couple runs, starting in 1980,they have all that footage.Well, and of course, the story how they got involved in the business is famous,and that when Peter Myvia got over in San Franciscoand to some degree because of the,I've been to the Cow Palace and only as a WWF performer
02:09:27when people had calmed down,but I can't imagine the thought of the heelstrying to leave that ring in the 60son a sellout for Roy Shire with heatand even with the whole San Francisco Police Department,trying to get back to the locker room alive.I can't have, because it,it's a big building with a giant floor,
02:09:50you've got to walk a long way,and you've got to make some angle turns.And that's all a recipe for fucking disaster.So,the Samoan contingentthat was going to the matches,and the Cow Palace is not in downtown San Francisco.Brian, is it daily city?
02:10:09I'm not sure.That it's in?At least when I was there in the 90s,I would hesitate a guest to say it was that way earlier.Not the best neighborhood.You're getting a rowdy crowd.It was a promotion built around heat.And there was a Samoan baby face.
02:10:27So the story was that Afa and Sika and a number of members of their familystarted going to the matches at the Cow Palace and rooting for my via.and in the processyou knoweither about to kill or beating the shit out ofor whatever all the Shire's top heelsto the point where they saidmy V had talked to these people
02:10:52maybe if I can get them into businessso we can smart them up or whateverand stop thisand can you imaginea young Afa and a young Sikabecause what they looked like when they were in their 40sbut a youngoff and a young Sika.
02:11:09Beating up an old Paul DeMarco.Beating up an old Paul DeMargo, yes.Or just coming at you as angry marks instead of working wrestlers.Well, remember, too, in terms of how frightening they were, the story was, I think it was Sika.During the Vince McMahon 1994 steroid trial on Long Island,Sika was admonished from the bench or he was kicked out of the room.I don't remember what happened.He started mouthing to the...
02:11:38jury not guilty yeah yeah not imagine that face that with the the wide-eyed wildsamoan stare right not guilty not guilty there was some hoodoo do to voodoo shit yeah theyand remember seeka was the one also that when they were going to put the belt on roman rainsand what new orleans no was it san francisco was it for san francisco home base yeah maybe whateverWrestleMania that was and they changed their mind and didn't do it,there were reports that were tried to be downplayed later onthat Sika was going to do something about that shit.He thought somebody said they didn't want to do a job, whatever, God damn it.
02:12:20I think the original way we heard it, and I don't know if it's true or not,but the original way was Sika and other family members started to tear stuff up.Hey, Fabe lives.But anyway, so obviously, and Roman reigns his father,for those who have not made the connection,and we didn't mention it.Yeah, if you see any of the pictures of himwhen they first started out before they had facial hair.
02:12:45Again, different body types, it was a different world,but you could see the resemblance to Roman reigns.Yeah.Well, and said Roman has been working out,and it's more modern times to begin with.And I mean, these guys,I'm not saying that they were some kind of lazy people.The Hapa and Sika did not go to the gym
02:13:07to improve theirthey already looked like thatwhen they got in the businessthey just grew their hair longerthat was pretty much all they neededthere's a great picture that goesthat I've seen going aroundnot just now but in the past
02:13:21and it kind of encapsulates that eraof WWF as things went nationaland it's like outside the TV taping in Pennsylvaniait's Alpha and Sikawith no shirt onand Lou Albano with a shirt openin the biggest bellyand the Iron Sheets
02:13:37cut all roided upand they're barbecuing.They're cooking like burgers.And I'm like that sums up an eraof WWF right there.Lou Albatto and the Samoans barbecuing.And who knows who they were barbecuing?But anyway, but no,
02:13:55we send our condolences out to the wholeentire extended familyup and down the line wherever they may be.Butand hopefully off us, as we say,doing well, he's been under the weather, so we send our best out to him too.Then what Captain Lou was a winning combination?Captain Lou, actually, body type resembled them, and he may have spoken English just
02:14:23almost as coherently as the wild Samoan savages.See, that's a great error of Lou Albano, because if you watch one, not watch, but if yousee any photos or any video even when he first started managing, he was kind of dressedrespectfully. By that point, he was such a slob. He would take on the personality of whoever hemanaged. So he managed the moon dogs, starts dressing like a moon dog. He manages the Samoans,starts dressing like the Samoans. He managed Fuji and Saido. He starts coming out there with aheadband on and a jacket. So it was a fun period for Loua-bano. Him and the Samoans, though,on and off for, you know, four or five years there were a big combination up here.
02:15:03Yeah, but boy, when he started managing that girls team, what he wore then.Oh, my gosh.Anyway, obviously, we're going to talk about Kevin Sullivan, who passed away a couple of days ago as we record this.And some more things about his career and our interaction with him that we didn't cover a month or so ago.And that's going to be a lot of the program joining me, as usual, you guys all know hisallocates, but most importantly, germane to this program, he was a friend and a fan of Kevin Sullivan's.The great Brian Last, everybody.Aloha, Jim.
02:15:42A pleasure to be here once again, and we'll have another good conversation about Kevin.We just talked about him, and of course we have this sad news, but there's a lot to remember and a lot to talk about.Well, and you know, already, this happened as we said 48 hours ago, I guess, was we got the word.and, you know, even if we had been ready to sit down and record this program and it just happened,we wouldn't have talked about it because I didn't want to today.But we took a little time to think, and actually it took a little time not to think about it,because that's what I've done for the past day and a half or so is just not think about it.And then I realized as we were about to record this,
02:16:29that this is another one of the show.I love doing the show for the people.But this is another one of those that I wish that we could just not do and say we didand pick up with the drive-through and act like we did it and got it over with.But that would not be fair to people who want to hear what we have to say.Am I rambling here today on the program?The problem is, is that.It's like, and Brian, I was telling you, and you tweeted out some pictures from the files of Kevin,
02:17:05including some things you didn't know you had until you went looking.And I don't tweet about people dying anymore.I haven't in quite some time because besides the fact that it was becoming way too regular an occurrence,it seems a little frivolous for this situation.I'm starting to thinkmaybe we ought not talk about it eitherbecause what the fuckit just it
02:17:35everybody gets olderI think that'sStevie Nix wrote that didn't sheoh I don't know theStevie Nix it's it's soundyou don't know the whole canonyeahbut um
02:17:51but anywaywe're gonna we're gonna forge aheadand do this here todayandhopefully because you did halfway tickle me right before we started recording with,you said,hey,do you think that the people remember that Kevin Sullivan was partners with Whitey Caldwell?
02:18:12And I said,that's the first fucking story I was going to tell.Because it's still one of my favorites that Kevin ever told me.And let's get this out real quick.Folks, we still don't know, you know, exactly,I believe that the sepsis that he got from the surgery from a couple months ago,and we talked about it on the, about a month ago on a show,and you can find it on YouTube,
02:18:41when we found out that he had been hospitalizedand had an emergency surgery that led to complications,and that's the underlying cause of this whole thing.But the last update that we had gotten was that he was doing physical therapy.And I know some people think, oh, he was in a gym or whatever.I know from my cousin, physical therapy at some level, depending on your condition,is teaching you how to swallow water again without fucking it going down in your lungsand giving you goddamn infection.
02:19:23so but it was positiveat last we heardbut then this was apparently the underlying causewas the infection that he'd hadbut anywaythe Whitey Caldwell thingbecause Brian you foundsome of his rookie pictures
02:19:43in your wrestling news filesare not even rookie pictures but when he was still in wrestling schoolthe first pictures he had takenandthat was what 19 maybe69-70-ishthat part oftime because
02:19:59initially afterhe wrestled some and he was obviouslyfrom Massachusetts legitimatelyand wrestled some in New Englandand I think he got a fewCanadian dates, small shows, whatever,but his first territorywas
02:20:15he was in East Tennesseefor Knoxville wasJohn Cazana promotingand then the Tri-Cities,Kingsport,John City, Bristol.By that point, Ron Wright was running it behind the scenes, but nobody knew he was the topheel.
02:20:31Nobody knew that publicly.But what they would do is after Ron Wright and Whitey Caldwell, who as we've talked aboutbefore and the Smoky Mountain fans know, was the all-time top babyface in a territory,well, Ron and Whitey had been working a program with each other on an office.for 10 years, right?The chain matches and all that shit.And since Ron's partner, Don Wright, was a wrestler also,and the Wright brothers were a big heel team,
02:21:05they would give quite a different baby-faced partnersthrough the years so that he could face the Wright brothersand tag matches and freshen it up.And Les Thatcher did that in, I think,was it 72, 73?He might have followed Kevin Sullivan.Was it that late?that Les Thatcher was there?
02:21:24Or was he there before, Kevin?Was it late 60s?That's what I thought. Maybe I'm wrong.Well, do you know what I'm probably wrong to?But nevertheless,yes, ladies and gentlemen,Les Thatcher was a youngSpry white meat baby face at one point in time,
02:21:40back when people still saw in black and white.It probably was in late 60snow to think about it because he was there at the same timeas Don and Al Green and that was late 60s.Nevertheless, it was like,1971, Kevin Sullivan gets booked his very first territory in the wrestling business.He's never been out of New England.He's as Boston as you can get.
02:22:03And he ends up in the hills of East Tennessee being Whitey Caldwell's partner against the Wright brothers.And the deal was the young baby face would sell and the rights would get the heat on him and whatever.And then he'd make the tag to Whitey, who the people think,thought was the toughest man in the world and he'd clean house.And so anyway, Kevin told me a story years ago, and I can't tell it as good as he told itand also the accent.But he said the first week they have a tag match and they get wild and everything andmaybe it's a disqualification or whatever.
02:22:44In a second week, they have no disqualification match and all kinds of shit happens, whatever.and so they come back the third week in a cage.And even back then in those days,I don't know what kind of cage they may have had in,it was probably in Kingsport.It might have been chicken wirebecause they were still using that in Tennessee in the 70s.They just bring out a roll of chicken wire
02:23:07when the guys got in the ring,it'd wrap it around the fucking ring post.But it's a cage match,and they go to him ahead of timeand say, kid, we're going to need you.Get a little colored tonight.And, you know, at this time, he's never done that before, right?And he's go, okay.
02:23:26And I can't remember whether it's Ron or Don.I think it may have been Donnie.Said, don't worry, kid, we'll handle it for you.And he's like, what the fuck?So they get in the match.And obviously, besides it's a cage match, everybody's got a chain in their pocketor fucking roll of quarters or some kind of Tennessee gimmick.and they're going to have this wild match
02:23:51and when it came time for Kevin to get to colorthis is when he found out about the chiselthe wedge thatand Bo James still has one of thesean actual legitimate Wright brothersfucking chiseled that he hastweeted out pictures of at King of Kingsportyou can find him
02:24:14but for the people who haven't heard the storythe Wright brothersand Ron specificallydidn't want peoplesmart to the wrestling businessand ifthey saw somebodybladen they get smart
02:24:30to the wrestling businessso Ron invented a shortcuthe went to a machinist shopand he had a piece of flat metalhe had the tip of a chiselsharpened downand put on the goddamnpiece of flat metal that was high enough to go in your skin but not deep enough to
02:24:53goddamn fracture your skull.And then they put tape around it so that the chisel part was sticking out and they madeit a set of brass knucks kind of for real, but the tape cushioned the blow of the metal,but they would draw back and pop you on a forehead and you would get color withouthaving a blade. So the way Kevin told the story, he's like, and we're fighting and it's gettingcrazy and then fucking, he said, yes, he said, it's Donnie. He said, Donnie grabbed him by the hairwith the left hand and he said, okay, kid, here comes your color. And he drew back and he said,Kevin said, we looked at his fist. It looked like he had a double-bladed axe on a goddamn
02:25:41in the end of his fucking fist. And he punched him with it. Boom. And he goes down and he'sbleeding. And at this point, Kevin says, fuck, these fucking hillbillies, it's all been a plot.They've got me down here. They're going to fucking kill me. This is a double cross. I've got todefend myself. And he pulls his chain out of his fucking tights and wraps it around hisfist and gets back up and punches Donnie in a face as hard as he can and busts his fuckingcheek open. And down goes Donnie. And Kevin gets on top of him. He's going towould have beat him to death.And Donnie looked up at him and said,
02:26:20Adaway kid, lay it in.That's the way we like it down here.And he's a fuck.And he dropped,he just started freaking out.What do I fucking do?He dropped the chain and everything.He was thinking about climbing out and they fucking grabbed him and started working with
02:26:35him.That was his introduction to Tennessee wrestling.And not the end of his relationship with Tennessee wrestling.Again,that's the early 70s.He would end up there again in the early 80s.that's, I guess, where you would first get to know them or get to...Well, hold on, no.
02:26:53He went to Memphis from there.Kevin Sullivan, as a young baby face, was...It worked for Goulis from the time that he left Knoxvilleafter that run was over with through...Sometime in 1972, I'd have to go back and look at Tuesday night at the Gardens,the wonderful book on that era.But he had worked this territory in the early 70s.the Memphis territory as well.
02:27:22And then I think from there, did he not,he had an early run in Georgia also, did he not?But nevertheless, maybe I'm thinking wrong.But he started going to some of the major territories,everybody that's been talking about his careerand all of the tributes that have come outfocused on, well, you know, they kind of start with a varsity club and, you know, there'sthe 90s WCW and everything, but he had been a star in almost every territory he worked in.
02:28:01And the Florida stuff, I feel like the, the, again, it's not Satan, it's not, he's not the devil,but yeah, the dark side Kevin Sullivan kind of not overwhelmed, but it's kind of the thing peoplemost think about, because in one way or another, even with the varsity club, he kind of stillheld on to that persona.Yeah, well, that's why I mean, the clips are easier to find.And everybody has seen, you know, more of that that was on TBS, et cetera.But he didn't start the Sullivan's army of darkness the whole nine yards until what, 82-ish?Right after he left Memphis.
02:28:40Remember?That's right.He left Memphis because there was a thing on TV when he returned.and I want to say was Lance Russell interviewing Steve Kernas like a warning to the fans of Florida,the promoters at Florida,he's a different guy,he's not the Kevin Sullivan,
02:28:56the friendly,I'm gonna tag up with Mike Graham, Kevin Sullivan,that guy's gone.There's something different about this guy.And that was his return,and then, of course,that's when the whole gimmick change happened.So that was 1982.
02:29:10He's 12 years into his career.and the early Florida runwhere he was the partner of Mike Grahamand one of the top baby faces in the stategets overlooked because that was really the prehome video era for any but the most fanatical.But Kevin again, you know,when I did a Back to the Territories interview with him,
02:29:37we talked extensively about that periodbecause he looked likeMike Graham.They were about the same height.Mike Graham, in those days, not the thin, you know, late 80s wrestler or WCW executive.He was a power lifter, so he was bulky.And Kevin, even though he was short, he was bulky because in those early years, he was more into powerlifting and, you know, strength.And when they grew a mustache, they looked like brothers.
02:30:10So it was almost like he had a Graham brothers.That's the way Eddie Graham used him.My Graham and Kevin Sullivan, for some period of time,were joined at the hip, indistinguishable in Florida wrestling.Actually, for a time, Eddie Graham was closer with Kevin than he was his own son,apparently.Well, yeah, that's another issue is that Eddie and Mike had the Graham family,and we won't get into a sub-reference here,
02:30:36but the Graham family dynamics at various points in time,people were on the outs, and Eddie had taken Kevin as more of a son.He was out in a fishing boat, and he was confiding things in him more than Mike at one point.And that's another reason why that, I mean, you know, when everybody says, oh, what a greatmind, what a great mind, a lot of the fans, they, well, he, you know, he was a booker,but they don't understand that he got to actually sit in a fucking boat with EddieGraham and have a personal relationship with him and learn all of that shit.So he not only he could book or he could call a finish or he could just, you know,
02:31:24look at a guy and say, you ought to do this or he ought to more of that or less of thator whatever.And it was carrying that, you know, that business on.When Flair was the Booker in WCW, Kevin was his assistant, but Kevin was.the only one who had bookedbetween me andRick and Kevinhe's the only one that had actually been a booker
02:31:47and so he waskind of like showing everyflare as we've talked about had the big timeideas and the major programsand made the major decisionsbut it was likeyou know Kevin do how to put it togetherthat's how I was able to learn something
02:32:07about it he wasassisting or involved witha lot more people who were booking at the timewhen they were successful. Did I make a senseof that statement? Even if he wasn't official,he had a hand in things.You know, when you think of his run in Georgia,I always love that match him and Tony Atlas against
02:32:30Alexis Smirnoff and Ivan Kohloff where they used the etherand then they interview the fans who, I'm a nurse,and that was ether. It gets it over so good.but he was great as a baby face there and who was in charge.That was Bill Watts as one of the co-owners.That may have been at that point only in Bill Watts bookingor Bill Watts alone booking,but he was there in Georgia under people that he didn't have the same
02:32:53relationship with that he did Eddie Graham,but again, he was exposed to a lot of the top minds.Well, and they did show some footage or a couple of clipson the tribute that the WWW did.And we got to recognize,them because we said, oh, Sika got two minutes, you know, because the Rock's on the board ofdirectors, but Kevin got two minutes and he never even worked there.So it's just, it's the new regime.
02:33:19So we got to recognize him for that.He worked for Polynesian pro wrestling, though.Oh, come on.Him and Mark Lewin and the fallen angel.Well, yes, they did, but still, I don't think we're going that far.And by the way, if we do make a couple of wisecracks dirt, of course, this, Kevin would be,it would be jamming.Brian, I can't do the fucking accent.
02:33:42I sound like Jericho, go, Derek, but, you know, make some jokes.What is this?A fucking funeral?He used to every now and then.I never knew what it was sometimes that triggered him to text me or leave me a voicemail.And it would just be like, Brian, you're a great therapist.Okay.But, you know, I liked that.
02:34:02I would hear feedback from him.And sometimes he would be listening to something that I had recorded a while back.and I would get like recently, or the most recent text I got from him was out of nowhere.Great job on the Atlanta War podcasts.I'm like, wow, that was a long time ago.He was just listening to it.He just found it.But I've got a couple of voicemails that I've saved and recorded for posterity for myself
02:34:27that I probably, if I played them from Kevin, it would hurt the feelings of some peoplewho may love him, but, uh, he'd be like, yeah, complain.right. He's a fuckingEddie.What the fuck are they doing?I've got a few of those twoprobably not as good as yours.But anyway, where were we going with that?
02:34:51Oh, so they showed some clips.He worked, he had a runin the WWWFas a baby face, Kevin Sullivan. What was thatin 1976? Because oftherelationship that Eddie Graham hadwith Vince Sr. in the Florida and
02:35:08New York pipeline.So he had already worked for Vince Senior.By the mid-70s,he had that to Watts and Oli and Eddie Graham.And then Knoxville,Kevin was not a, before he was a heelin the 80s.And, you know, we talked about that he had one point,
02:35:34one of the TV stations had him just introducing clipsof other wrestling promotions when there was no local promotion in town because they wanted wrestlingand he was the guy that they had hosted but um when ron fuller was running southeastern the firsttime around by what was it 77 78 kevin was a huge fucking baby face there for a couple of yearshe was a baby face there during the 1979 w no 78 w fia convention and i was comingoff his run, the last big baby face star in San Francisco, him and Bob Rup.That was right before that.Yeah, where they revitalized the business for Roy Shire and then Rupert tried to steal the
02:36:20territory and killed it again.And then Kevin ended up in Knoxville to watch Rup Tried to do that exact same move again.Yes, and here comes Rufins and kills the goddamn territory again.Jesus Christ, but fortunately by then Kevin went to fucking Georgia.did he not?Yeah, that's right.Again, he's on TBS or he's in the middle of a hot territory or he's revitalizing somethingor he's working for these, you know, smart fucking people.
02:36:50And then the reason why that I was excited to seem before he even came to Memphis,his first Tennessee run 1971 or what it was right before me.so I'd seen the name in the newspaper adsbut I'd you knowuntil cable became a thingwe'd see him on TBSand heard his reputation from Floridayou know but at that point in time
02:37:19the Tennessee territoryit was still a big deal when a majorname from national televisioncame in as a regularit not necessarilyto make Memphis shots or to fight Lawler or whateverbut as a regular on the cardand Kevin was a big name at that time
02:37:41so when he came in hereand they instantly you know aligned himwith Jimmy Hart the top heel factionhe and Wayne Ferris Danny Davisand a rotating cast as the secondnightmare whenDavid Oswald quit to businessand Ted Allen dumbed himself out of position
02:38:02but you know he could talk then and as a heel it was different because he had been a baby face most of the time that you'd seen or heard of himbut also you've seen the pictures just yesterday at that point all of a sudden Kevin Sullivan that had been a big barrel chested power lifterhe was fucking ripped he had gotten into bodybuilding and I think at one of the one of the one ofpoint he dieted down to like 188 pounds he had fucking eight abs the goddamn definition was insaneand that's when didn't he do a bodybuilding contest at that point was somebody they had footageof it on georgia tv i want to say it was tony atlas yes but i'm not certain but i think it wastony atlas but anyway he goes from like you know 58 270 to 58 188 and 2% body fat and 2% body fatAnd, you know, then that was a real good run as a heel for him here, even though he was still doing,
02:39:11he was Kevin Sullivan a regular person, right?But then, as you said, by the time that he finished the run here in Memphis and went back to Florida,he was fixed to go the whole heel route.And this was kind of a dry run for at least working in the ring.Well, he was in the first family with Jimmy Hart, and that's a great period for the firstfamily. But, you know, Kevin, and I haven't listened to it in a while, but in the manyconversations I had with him, I want to say he indicated that before he went back to Florida,he either thought he was going to be or he was led to believe that he may be one of the
02:39:47bookers or get a chance to book. Do you remember anything about that? In Memphis?Well, see, that was when I was still a photographer. So I would not have been sittingaround in the locker room listening to people complain because I wasn't in there yet.But I can believe he was led to believe that by somebody, not saying who, could have beenone of several people, but I can't see it ever actually happening because, not because hecouldn't or because, you know, he wouldn't do a good job, but because Jared, he owned thecompany.Lawler was not a 50% partner in 1981, but still he had a percentage of Memphis, and if Lawler
02:40:38wasn't the Booker, Dundee was going to be.And the one time they went outside the circle was Robert Fuller, and that didn't end well.So I don't know unless Jim Barnett or Eddie Graham were telling you.Jerry Jarrett, oh, you've got to do this.I don't think he would have done it just because Kevin was nota homesteader.And they tried to keep it in a circle.And again, he returns to Florida, and this is really the...
02:41:12And let me make this point.And then if Eddie Graham or Jim Barnett was telling Jerry Jarrett,you ought to do this, and he was thinking about it,then Lawler was figuring out a way to say, oh!And maybe...Dundee would have been fine with what little manwanted to do, but I think Lawler'd be, wait a minute.Well, you would return to Florida, and this is really where we would see his creativity
02:41:34come out for the first time.At first, it's him and Jake Roberts, and then slowly they add people.Everyone remembers Mark Lewin walking out of the water, the purple haze emerging from the sea.But this is really kind of Kevin, Kevin's creativity unleashed, both with Dusty there at the beginningin 83, and then after Dusty leaves Florida, the show.kind of becomes all about Kevin Sullivan and his stable.And by the way, that's where I researchedbringing Leviathan up out of the Ohio River
02:42:06was the Purple Hays deal.And Kevin at that point,I think Florida was a perfect territory for thatbecause they weren't going to get heat with the TV stationbecause Eddie Graham had such wonderful,you know, goodwill and,was involved in every civic organization in the goddamn state, right?And always getting awards.
02:42:33So they were pretty safe with the TV.But also, what made it, I've talked to Kevin a couple times about this also was he had massive heat.And his group had massive heat with much of the fan population.But there was that 10 or 15% in Florida of those weirdos that started either not only coming to support him,bringing him snakes, traveling around to see them.Remember the Kevin Sullivan fans van is the one that got burned into parking lot at that time?Do you remember that story?No.
02:43:13They had some group of, you know, several, you know, alternatively thinking individuals who were into whatever they thought Kevin's group was, right?for real and the snakes and the fuckingthey were driving aroundfollowing them at the town and they gotso much heat with the other fans becausethey were trying to supportKevin Sullivan and his group that the otherfans set fire to their goddamn
02:43:40devil van that these fans were driving around inin the parking lot of the wrestling matchesand it becauseeverybody believedit either one way or another rightit was like 90 against but 10-4and that made it really fuckingfucking intense for people.
02:44:00And they could get away with doing wacky things because they believed that Kevin was offhis fucking rocker.And Kevin took it really far, at times maybe even too far, but he took it really far,but there were lengths he didn't want to go, didn't he get, I don't know if Mad's theright word, but upset when the after Mags had a quote attributed to him that was made up,like, I am the devil or I worshiped the devil?Oh, yeah, yes.see that's the thing he never said satan he never said the devil it was it was it was non-denominational
02:44:34devil with him if you will it was just a a cult or a group or a band of wild weird wacky personalitiesand he'd let people's imagination take it into well people would have sworn that he was slaughteringand praise of Satan and drinking blood in the moonlight.He didn't do any of that shit.Never said devil, never said...Now, Dusty,Dusty would say that Kevin Sullivan, you little devil.Shit like that, but no, he never said Satan,
02:45:09never said devil, never mentioned God.But it was just, it was what people imagined it to be.But the things he did talk about, you remember,Abu Deneen, the tree of woe.These were the things we are.heard about. I have taken the beetle nut. Him and Mark Lewin were taking some beetle nuts on planesover to the fucking Pacific Rim. They were always where Steve Ricard over there, different shows.King Curtis. Is the Purple Hayes the most successful wrestler named after a strain of weed?
02:45:44Well, either that or a Hendrick song, one of the other.Well, same thing. And there's a little LSD involved in there also, which is where King Curtis camehandy.But where were we going with it?Now you've thrown me off. And it's interesting, too.If you look at the people, Kevin would end up not onlysurrounding himself with, but getting along with him being a liaison,maybe the last connection in some ways they have to
02:46:08the wrestling world, Mark Lewin, King Curtis, the sheik.It's interesting to people that he forged relationships with.Kevin is the one who set up or helped facilitatethe sheik to come back to Christ.for the summer 88 Great American Bash in Detroit that the most successful showCrocket ever ran there because Sheik was in the main event.And also Kevin would facilitate, as we talked about, the international shit.And that went back before the 90s and or, you know, Victor Quinonez in Florida,
02:46:47going to Japan with his group, or Steve Ricard doing something.You know, in Singapore, or the Polynesian pro wrestling, bringing in guys from Japan, and then Kevin getting...On one Smoky Mountain Wrestling TV taping, I had Miguel Perez, Jr., Bill DeMott, who at the time was Crash the Terminator.Crash the Terminator.What a cool name.Connemura, the Japanese guy, bless his little peepig at heart.Yuciro Canamora, later Wing Canamora.and and Taz
02:47:26and Taz I think was on that same tapingandyou know he was always keeping track ofwho and what was going onin wrestling outside of the big companiesif he wasn't in a big companyand was you know working on deals for everybodyand side note he's the one
02:47:46KevinGod damn it I've told you this in personhe was the one that told you this in personhe was the one that toldme, oh, this guy, he gigs his arm.Like, what the fuck?For those of you, and I will now blame Kevin.For those of you who know, you know, but for those of you don't know.
02:48:05Most gruesome match in American wrestling television history.So, Kevin is a heel in Smoky Mountain Wrestling.He has been the one for, there were, Brian Lee, prime time Brian Lee was the topbaby face. At the timeas we, yes, we were struggling, ladiesgentlemen. But suddenlythese weirdos and thesecreeps and these
02:48:31monsters start attacking himfrom out of nowhere. You had this bigMongolian guy, the Mongolianmauler. I think he just passed away notlong ago. Mr. Peter R. Miller.One of the weirdestfucking people in a nice way,weirdest fucking people I ever met
02:48:47in a business of weird people.Oh, God damn.the night we had him hide under the ringat the TV taping to fucking come outand goddamn attack Brian Lee, right?As another emissary sent by this mysterious force,he's under the ring when the people come in the door.And it's on the second taping,
02:49:05so he's got to be under there for like two hours, 15 minutes.And in the first taping,it's Robert Fuller and Jimmy Golden, the stud stable,and they're beating up whoever they're working with,and it's getting wild,and Jimmy Golden goes,and he's going to look under the ringso if he can pull out a chair
02:49:23and he fucking flips the apron skirt backand he comes face to face with the Mongolian maulerwho he doesn't know is under the ring.It scared his shit out of people.Oh, he had those contact lenses too, remember?Yes.He had contact lenses that Mongolian didand made his fucking eyes all black
02:49:41and a goddamn giant, fucking bulbous bald headwith a fucking little thing of hair sticking out on top.And Jimmy Golden was looking at him nose to nosewhen he was looking for a chair under the ring.Oh, God damn.He's handed.And he throws the fucking flap back.And anyway...
02:50:01Hey, how did you signal himthat it was time from the do his thing?Hilded brand when I think somehowbamed four times on the fucking mat or whatever,I believe.You know, I mean, this is low budget.But anyway, not germane.There had been Adam Baum.
02:50:18Brian Clark, the Nightstalker.He did some.and Kevin finally is revealed as the master,the secret fucking manipulator behind all of this band of weirdoswhen he came in the ring and he stabbed Brian Lee in the head with the golden spikelike fucking, I don't know, 25 times or whatever,and Brian bled like you run him through a razor blade factory.And we instituted the goddamn red X up over the screen.
02:50:50like they did in the 70s and the WWWFso that we would get kicked off televisionshowing all this blood and it made it evenoh my Godso now Kevin says JimmyJimmy I can't do the accentwe can get the spike overthese guys from that Victor was booking
02:51:10in Japan Miguel and Demotand also Kanamurawith the wing promotion I guessor whatever they were doing over therewell can they come and be on theAmerican television and the Japanese photographerswill be there, got a big spread on Smoky Mountainin the Japanese papers
02:51:29and he said in Cana Murrowwho gets a spike over he blades his armand at the timeyou know every once in a whileDusty had done itand the sheik had done it whenthe doctor told him he couldn't fucking cut his head anymoreit wouldn't bleed
02:51:47he'd cut his head and fucking sandwould come out.So, I said,are he sure?Yeah, oh yeah, he does it over there.All right.You know, there's no athletic commission in Tennessee.I'm not going to get my promoter's license booted.
02:52:03He'll get a little color from the arm, you know,like Dusty is done or the sheik's done or whatever.And so they have the match and finally Kevin pulls out the fucking golden spikeand he fucking stabs him in the arm with it.And I see the guy go down.and he made a little swipe and thendidn't see anything andthen I see him doing something else
02:52:27I'm like what the fuck I guess it just ain't going to workrightand then I see him do something elseand then you seeBrian you remember the foot you rememberBrian Hildbrand Mark Curtis when he walks overbecause now Kevin's trying to work on himwith the spike and they're doing whatever they're doing
02:52:47and you don't see really any bloodbut then all of a sudden, Brian Hildgren walks over and looks out and just gets that look on his facethat Brian used to get when he was seeing something he shouldn't see, and he just kind of turns around and walks off.And he told me later on, it was the sickest thing.This guy had cut down the side of his arm, the bicep level, big enough it looked like you could lay his fucking fingers in,but it wasn't bleeding.and then all of a sudden it started bleedingand so anyway
02:53:22it still didn'tBrian Leeby drinking two beers and taking a couple of aspirinsbled more from a fucking inch and a half blade jobto the head than this fucking guy didwhen he just aboutdismembered or decapitatedwhatsoever amputated his fucking arm
02:53:43yeah it was really gruesomereally disgustingand well I don't thinkKevin assumed he was going to be doingthat either but whatever the guydid he cut it somewhere wherethis expert at arm bladingcut it where you wouldn't bleed
02:54:00anyway until you got down to the goddamnbone or whateverand let me put the period on the end of the goddamn storyand remember where you were goingso we're back in the backthey're wrapping this guy's arm up they've calledto ambulance and what the fuck is heWhy did he do that?
02:54:18I don't know, Jimmy.It worked before whatever,but they take the guy.Now, think about this,we are, you know where Pigeon Forge, Tennessee is, don't you?I do.Well, we are in Severeville,which is legitimately the next,
02:54:34Severevill was actually a townwhen Pigeon Forge was just a wide spot in the road,but now Pigeon Forge is a tourist attraction.This small,Poh-Dunk town at the high school gym.And I think the fire department took him to the goddamn hospital.He's a Japanese guy still dressed in his wrestling outfit with what looks to be of a severe fucking knife wound.Running down his goddamn arm doesn't speak a lick of English.
02:55:13and he comes in at 11 o'clock on a Monday night.Everybody in fucking town heard about this fucking guy.It didn't draw us a dime,but it was the goddamn biggest story in historyin fucking Severeville, Tennessee,to ever happen on a Monday night at least.They had never seen anything like it.But Kevin's running Smokey Madden overall, I think, is pretty underrated.
02:55:38It's one of the runs I enjoy.It was the first and maybe the only time I ever enjoyed the nightstop.Because remember, he had that match with Sid Vicious at the Clash of Champions.Yes.That everyone said at that point, things have been a lot worse since.But people said that was the worst match ever.And then he really didn't do much.He had Ox Baker guiding his career.
02:55:59And then he ended up there with Kevin.The worst manager ever.But when he ended up with Kevin, it worked.Like, that was the perfect guy to stand behind Kevin.But here was the thing.I had booked Brian Clark Nightstalker independently of Kevin.you know why?Paul Orndorff.
02:56:16He lived in Atlanta and he was driving Paul Orndorff.And Paul said, would you do me a favor?Because what he said, well, you do me a favor?And book this guy's going to drive me.I said, what's his name?The Nightstalker.I was like, oh, Jesus Christ, because I'd seen the match, right?With Sid.
02:56:30But he said, no, I'm working with him.So Paul had been working with him a little bit.And then once that Kevin saw him, he said, he's perfect.Because the Nightstalker, right?Why wouldn't he be perfect for Kevin?Sullivan. And that's what Kevin was able to take him. And as part of that, the angle that Kevin wasdoing where he led the group, which then we tailored down to the Nightstalker for budget reasons,but the group and he was a heel and he was involved in things without the pressure of being
02:57:04a single main event guy as green as he was being on Brian Clark.You know, the other thing I think about with Smoky Mountain is I didn't,get to go to the first fan week in 93. I went 94-95. But Scott Cornish, the late ScottCornish, the noted wrestling humorist, always talked about the biggest I welcome to a SmokyMountain moment for those fans in 93 was that first show, Kevin Sullivan versus the Mongolianstomper. I want to say it was Morristown, maybe. And they wrestled in and out of the building.And again, a Mongolian stomper hadn't really been doing much. So it was just this wild,and now we're all used to them.
02:57:45They're everywhere.But not everyone was doing that then.Kevin was one of the pioneers, I hate to say it in some ways,of that brawl around the building, but it worked.And again, it was one of those memorable matches that people still talked about.Yeah, and he took it because they were doing it in Japan.Brody and those guys were doing it in Japan,and it was easier to get away with
02:58:09because Japanese people wouldn't sue you, right?But like you said, people weren't seeing that every match, every show on a regular basis.And I let people do it that I could trust.And you trust Kevin not going to get in trouble.Not going to fucking be reckless with some gimmick and decapitate some kid.But also, Kevin understood from his previous run in Knoxville in 78, who the stomper was.So he was a big star that would come in and work at that time with Archie who had,the Mongolian Stomper had respect amongst a certain era of the boys because, well,
02:58:54Brett Hart said the greatest heel in the history of stampede wrestling.I think he may have said the greatest heel in the history of Canada wrestling.Well, the history of Canada.And it probably still, Joe LaDuc might want a word, but, well, no, Ladook was a baby.face up there. So nevertheless.But also with Archie in Knoxville, because Kevin had been there in 78, he was the hottestheel in the history of that town. And Archie had been retired for like five years at that point.He was working for the Sheriff's Department, but he still kept, he rode his bicycle.
02:59:29What was he? 56 maybe when he started working for me. He rode his bicycle every day to work at thesheriff's department seven miles each way.and he looked fucking great.So he became our go-to baby-face monster.They weren't going to boo him anymore.He wasn't in the business of getting heat full-time anymore,but he was such a name there that if you brought him inand made him the monster, he didn't have to speak,
03:00:01he was the goddamn the equalizer or a special tag partner,whatever the case,people loved it and Kevin knew how to work with him.So, and you set the tone from the start.As soon as the people heard, I played the theme from Halloween for him.Ding-dun-dun-dun-d-d-d-and here comes fucking Archie.He hits the ring, they fight, they go everywhere, in and out, whatever the fuck,it's crazy.
03:00:31So the boot comes into play, something fucking happens.And whether it's a DQ or the heel gets beat, you don't beat the stomp.And it worked for three fucking years a couple times a year.Like Rough House Fargo, we could bring Archie back.But it started with Kevin, too, because remember,Christmas Chaos 92, I think.When Brian Lee was hurt, someone had to come and defend, I guess, Brian Lee.It was my humble one stopper.
03:00:59The honor of him.What honor you say?No, but yeah.And then one of the greatest ones we did was after,I think Archie had worked probably with Kevin in Johnson City at Freedom Hall.And we're doing a backstage interview with somebody else, right?In the locker room, the announcer is standing there and he's interviewing whoever this is,and all of a sudden you hear, bam, boom from the next room, and then a door flies open.
03:01:31And somebody, I think it might have been Brian Hildebrand, Mark Curtis, runs out and says,he's loose, he's loose, run!And then somebody else flies out of the roomand then there comes the fucking stomperaround the corner with his boot in his hand.And he charges down the halland people are screaming out of the way.And he goes across and he knocks down the heel door
03:01:54and fucking gets on Kevin and you see the boot flying and everything.People love shit like that.We treated him like the Frankenstein monsterand Kevin was the perfectopponent for him because he knew how toheal him down or use an object to get an advantageor, you know, when to not beat up the monster.Because to a lot of guys that had names at that point,
03:02:18Archie would have looked like a well-conditioned man in his 60sand probably not giving him the deference that he deserved.Where were we going with that?We were just talking about Kevin and Smokey Mountainand the various places Kevin was and ended upand the people he worked with.and going back also.But one thing,
03:02:42the triple Tower of Doom,do you remember that?Yeah, unfortunately, 88.88.But here's the thing.And the whole thing leading up to thatand the execution of thatand the story behind that,
03:02:58Kevin sat down with me on Crockett's planeone night before that whole thingunfoldedand explained itto me, and I thought it was the greatest goddamn thing I'd ever heard of in a history of wrestling.The problem became an actual execution.Other people had to do it, and you had to see it, and you had to put it on television,and you needed Kevin Sullivan talking to you for an hour and a half to examine, and then it would
03:03:32have been the greatest thing you'd ever seen, as long as you didn't see it.You just heard Kevin tell you about it.he could make even those ideas.It was very intricate, as I recall.It's so much so that I can't remember what any of the details were,but I was fucking captivated.As a fan, you were captivated until you saw it.And then you're like, this is not good.
03:03:57I hope they never bring it back, and then they brought it back for Hogan, remember?Well, but if you got to bring something stinky back, bring it back for Hulk.They brought a backSohugia could beat like nine heels in one nightWhenever it wasIncluding the returning Zeus and Jeep SwensonYeah there's a couple of names out of theDistant Past
03:04:21But yeah well and that was Kevin having to workUnfortunately with you know the largest ego into businessBut he was trying toTo make things happenHe made it work thoughI mean he again hekind of always put it so that he had to,or the way he saw it was he had to gain Hogan's trust as a booker.
03:04:42Yeah.And he did it.Unfortunately, he had to do a lot of stuff that catered more to Hogan than the fans at different times.But at the end of the day, you know, we said it the other day when who killed WCW,if you look at who built WCW, Kevin's responsible for a lot of the good things that happened.and he has almost no responsibility for the fall of WCW.He's certainly one of the heroes of the WCW story.And as we mentioned also, when we talked about the first time they killed WCW,
03:05:18Kevin was not only part of, but pretty much the experienced steady hand in the roombehind the only successful period that they had from 1988 to fucking1996 and that waswhen Flair was Bookerbut Kevin was theonly guy that had ever done that beforeand then yes and there wasJim Hurd was on the committee
03:05:46and Jim Barnett whoas we've talked about was not there to contributeideas on paper for matches or finishesJody Hamilton who wassnoring quitea bit and not given a lot of responsibility.Jim Ross, who was the beleaguered announcer who had to call whatever fucking came up.Myself, who had been booking for a grand total of one day, the first day that I was on
03:06:18the fucking job.So, you know, Kevin structured the fucking thing just by lack of, you know, guidance elsewhere.What was the quote that was always attributed to him when...heard one of the cut flare's hair or something, and he said, like, would you change Mickey Mantle'snumber?No, I think it was Babe Ruth.Babe Ruth?I think it changed Babe Ruth's number.
03:06:44I didn't, you know, that's the whole thing.He had to suffer through the Spartacus and the, the, the, Jim heard the ding-dongs and the hunchback.He was there for the hunchbacks.Kevin was in the room for the hunchback pitch and an only shutdown.everybody's heard that story.Am I repeating myself?It's been a while, and there are a lot of fanswho may not know the legacy of Jim Hurd's creative ideas.
03:07:11Well, the ding-dongs were such a major success.Ding-dong!That Hurd pitched the idea of the hunchbacks.They were a tag team of hunchbacks,and the idea was that they were unbeatablebecause you couldn't pin them since they were hunchbacks,and you couldn't get both shoulders on the goddamn mat at the same time.And he pitched this in front of me
03:07:34and Rick Flair and Kevin Sullivanand Jim Ross and Oly Andersonwas in the room at that point in timeand a few othersand we all sufferedthrough it and then Oly being the fucking onethat you would think he wouldbe the one
03:07:49said all right Jim then book me and Arneagainst the fucking hunchbacksand I'll slap a fucking submission hold on himand make him give up and beat him in 30 secondswell God damn itonly you know what I'm talking aboutYou know, it's interesting, too, in between WCW, because he was there, I want to say he left by 91, and then he returned to 94.In that period in between, you know, he had to make a living.
03:08:18He worked in these like everyone does.And he did some overseas tours, and he did various things, but, you know, he stayed relevant with the relevant things happening on what was then the independence scene,whether it was Smoky Mountain Wrestling,I don't know if you consider yourself an independent,but, or ECW.After Eddie Gilbert left,one of the first people Paul E.brought in was Kevin Sullivan.
03:08:44I don't think him and Eddie Gilbertmay have coexisted well together at that point.So after Eddie was gone,one of the many changes Kevin Sullivan came on.Eddie would have shit himself if Kevin had come inbecause, you know,Eddie was about being the bookerand Kevin had been a booker,
03:08:58whereas Paul was about being a bookerwith smart peopleto help him be a Booker.And Kevin Sullivan was teaming up with Taz.And that was one of the first thingsthat really elevated TASfrom just being the guy that you used to seeon ICW TV or IWCCW
03:09:14against Ray Odyssey or Tommy Dreamerto seeing him as being an emerging talent.The Tasmaniac.Yeah, well, the Tasmaniac.A lot of that's Paul E, the way he used him,but a lot of that was the credibilityof Kevin Sullivan teaming with him.Well, and that's the thing is that
03:09:32Kevin got Taz down for the volunteer slam that year.We did the rage in the cage.That's why Taz was in it.Now that I think of it, it was, it was, Kevin had got Taz because I needed an extrafucking heel.That's why he was working Knoxville.That's why he was working ECW.As you said, he also did the international dates.
03:09:57And he was still living in Florida, but he was trying to make sure thathe knew what was going on and had a, you know, had spots in various places.And, you know, as you said, stayed, because there was no such thing as independent wrestling and internet publicity at that time in those days.It was all the magazines and regional television can add up if it's seen in the right places.And as long as he's got his finger in four or five different things going on, he's always got something going on.because Kevin was smart to how the business worked,and when he saw most of the territories going away,he knew he just needed to expand and concentrate.
03:10:42And you and Pauly both knew that you would be willing to accept promos from him on the beach?Yes.But that's the thing.Well, like I said when we were talking last month about him,he would go above and be honest instead of standing in front of a brick wall.You know, he would find a place that looked good.He did one of the promos that he sent in was,he was reenacting the fucking bar scene
03:11:04with the bartender from the shiningand you got the extrayou know a bonusof Nancy's arm or handreaching into the scene every once in a while to hand him a drinkor to be an off-camerayou know fuckingpersonality of some kind
03:11:23and he would put everything into itit wouldn't be like just damn comingyou know he would think about itand we'd talk on the phone aboutYou know, what you want to do in the finish?What can we come back with?You know, I wouldn't just booking him for dates.It was, okay, here's what we'll do.
03:11:41And here's who you're working with and blah, blah, blah.And he always, obviously, had great ideas on what to do with it.Was it Smokey Man or ECW?There was one promo I remember he did on the beach where he starts, like, at a distance.And he doesn't say anything.It starts with him just walking fast right towards the camera.And it was intimidated.like, oh my God, what's he going to do?
03:12:04But he would return to WCW as a baby face,team with Cactus Jack against the nasty boys,a memorable match in Philadelphia at Slambury.And then, of course, and I guess we should send our sympathiesto his brother Dave, Evad Sullivan.Oh, good Lord.Remember, they brought him and they gave him a goofy brother.That was brought Kevin Sullivan back to WCW.
03:12:27Yes, and he was dyslexic, so his name wasn't Dave, it was Evad.And he was a Hulkamaniac.What was his name?He was a fairly nice guy.I think I met him a time or two.He had been wrestling as the equalizer.I can't remember his real name.It has to be Dave something, because why else would you just assert Dave there?
03:12:47Is his name Dave Sullivan?I can't, uh, well, that's a fine Irish name now, God damn it.But, uh, yeah, see, even the great ones are sometimes saddled with questionable creative.But, you know, everybody just thought, well, if it's weird, Kevin can make it work, because he usually does.You know, I guess we should talk a little bit about everything in WCW with him and Nancy and Chris Benoit and everything afterwards.I've always had a problem with people who, you know, it costs Kevin a lot of his good name.Yeah.Because a lot of people, first people who were friends with Chris Benoit, who had become friends with Nancy.
03:13:33just were insisting that Kevin was this awful, awful guy.I think it was revealed when we had him on the show four years agothat Nancy had been arrested for abuse on Kevin, not the other way around.And...Oh, go ahead.Well, I was just going to say, and by the way, what we're referencing folks,four years ago, a Dark Side of the Ring episode aired on the Benoitand Nancy Benoit
03:14:06tragedyand Kevin was noton the programand so thereforeeven thoughyou know other people may have triedto a bit his storyhis side was not
03:14:23represented well in theepisode andwe hadBrian and I had him on the show herewhich you can find it on theYouTube channel.Official Jim Cornett is what I'm talking about.I'm not trying to be commercial, but everybody should hear that because he was not on
03:14:42the show because he turned down the request to be on the show because the promise he had madeto Nancy's parents.Yeah, he was waiting for permission from them.He said that was the only thing that would hold them up from talking about it was hewanted her parents to give him permission.Darkside put up a, you know, some text on the screen.saying that he declined to be interviewed, but that was kind of not the whole story, and we hadKevin on to tell the story.
03:15:09And to be honest, Nancy's sister, not a fan of Kevin's, which has colored some viewpoints ona situation, but Nancy was a handful, and everybody has issues with their personal lives.but what reallyjust disgusted mewas these stupid peoplebecause the peopleKevin Sullivan had something to do with itit wasn't Chris Benoit
03:15:44that whole bunch of bullshityou'd have to be a completefucking imbecile on a vergeof being locked up for your own safety rather than being out in publicto believe that Kevin had something to do withany of their deathsso what it amounted to was a bunch of fucking assholesacting like assholes, trying to be assholes
03:16:06and malign and slander somebodythat was more successful than they would ever be at anythingand that's what makes me madbecause it's not likea great amount of people believed ityou couldn't. It's fucking stupidbut a great amount of people would say itbecause they thought that that made them
03:16:29special in some way.Yeah, and Kevin took a lot of hits, and he was quiet.He didn't say anything, and he took a lot of hits, and as timing has gone by, and differentthings have come out, I think you could say Kevin was really treated horribly by a lot ofpeople, and that Chris Benoit was always the bad guy.You know, he was abusive, not just at the end, but he was abusive, he was hooked on drugs,loaded to the tits on steroidsand it was easy for everyone
03:17:01to point the finger of Kevinas being the problembut Kevinyou know like I said he took a lot of hitsTriple H had very nice words to say about himin that tribute video on SmackDownand they did a very nice job with thatnext time you're going to use any of my images
03:17:16ask for permissionbut you know it's like he said all these nice thingswhat a great mind he was and he wasyou know we were talking to him in recent yearshe was why not give him ajob at some point.You know, why not bring him in and use that mind?And Kevin, there are a lot of very small independent promotions and some medium-sized ones
03:17:37that benefited over the last 15, 20 years from Kevin's availability and his abilityto go someplace and treat something seriously.And even if it's for one night, if he was going to be booking or helping with creativeideas, he took it very seriously.He was still trying to help wrestlers and promoters.you know what here's the the well i'll say sad thing i mean my god you know he's been retired for a whilenow but if this was if the triple h regime the paul levec regimethe vince's absence if that had happened 15 years ago
03:18:17you may very well have seen that because i think this was another example of vince'she's a wrestling guyor you knowhe doesn't understand what we dosomething like thatit has always been the problem with gettingcertain peoplethat Vince didn't
03:18:40grow up with grow up arounddidn't serve him well for longperiods of time didn't work in hisspecific companysuccess outsideashe wasvery lack of
03:18:55days goal in recognizingand it wasn't likeKevin Dunn was goingoh you know we ought to get this KevinSullivan in here he's awrestling guy Vince whateverI think ifnow was 15 years ago
03:19:11andTriple H was in charge I have a feeling thatKevin would have been being consultedon a variety of thingsyeah I mean so many of the people who were involvedwith the failures of WCWincluding the death of itall were able to maintain employment and wrestling,
03:19:29whether it's in WWE or TNA.But Kevin, again, Booker for the most successful periods,never got that chance.And a lot of it was because, you know,the Benoit and that crew putting the mouth on him.They made him the bad guy not just to, you know,not to the promotion necessarily, but to fans.Once you heard that all these guys hated Kevin Sullivan,
03:19:53it made a lot of fans hate Kevin Sullivan.I think a lot of people for a very long time looked unfairly at Kevin,who, you know, again, from my experience, the nicest possible guy.And so giving with his time and his information and his knowledge.And I think his reputation, I think he's getting it back a lot now.But for years, it took a really unfair hit.Well, and also think about this, were they going to pick Kevin upin the
03:20:24WWEwhen Benoit and his guyshad just gone therebefore WCW goes out of businessthat was not an opportune timebutyou know that isas you said
03:20:39not only with the fansbut also with some of the boysI can see wherethese guys would have goneand if he hadn't worked with Kevinoh this fucking guyyeah I mean you can't saylike he put the
03:20:51you the famous story isyou know, they couldn't want to work with him, he put the belt on Benoit.And then Benoit left.But you can't say Kevin wasn't a guy who put over or helped young wrestlers.He always did.Always.He helped make careers.Would Rick Steiner have become Rick Steiner without Kevin Sullivan?
03:21:09Would Mike Rotunda have ever been watchable without Kevin Sullivan?Mick Foley.Would he have ever gotten a chance on national TV?I actually have a promo here.A bunch of people have sent.Maybe I'll play audio in a moment.moment without Kevin Sullivan.And the list goes on and on.
03:21:26And when you look at WCW, again, he was the booker.If there was a time where you enjoyed Nitro, 96, 97, he was the booker.So if there's stuff you enjoyed, make sure you give him some credit for it.And I'll tell you one thing, though, talk about getting people booked and spots and, you know,working with promoters and everything.this was aboutgoddamnseven or eight years ago
03:21:52Kevin I'm talking to him on the phonehe says Jimmyas this guyand I'm not going to call the guy's namebut as this guy in West Virginiahe runs shows he's greathe's got the moneythe shows are great the whole thing
03:22:07he'd love to talk to youwell Kevin if you say he's okayall right you know it's not that fardown the road for me from West Virginiaso I call it guyI get booked on his showhe's okayit's at such and such gym
03:22:22and God damn itwas itmay have beenParkersburg, West VirginiaI can't remember nowParkersburg, Clarksburgsomewhere in that areabut yeah there's a big festival in town
03:22:36there's going to be thousands of people in townand we're going to have this bigwrestling show and the Rock and Roll Expressare going to be there and warlord's going to beit, a barbarian's going to be there andsome other peopleokay god damnall right i'll do it
03:22:51and it's in a middle of the summerbrian and when i get therethey had not lied they were exactly rightthere was a big festival in townthere were thousands of people in townguess where the wrestling show waswherenot in fucking town
03:23:12it was down the road from to it was likeI said, where is this goddamn festival?Because I show up at the building.There's an empty, it's like in a residential neighborhood.There's an empty goddamn parking lot for about a hundred cars.And there's two in it.Mine being one of them.And a trailer pulled up with this building.
03:23:33I said, where's the festival?Oh, it's in town.Where's that?About five miles down this road.And you'll get right in the, God damn it.So it was like, yes, there was a festival.there, but you couldn't see the goddamn wrestling from the festival.And get in this building, it's 90-something degree.
03:23:57And by the way, Kevin is not there.Kevin's not booked on this show.Kevin, the jolly joker that he is.He said, oh, yeah, the guy's, I got my money, but, oh, yeah, the guy runs great shows.And he's off home and fucking, whether I think he'd move to Washington by the end.But nevertheless, I get in this building, if it's 97 degrees in the parking lot, it's 127 in this building.Because there's absolutely no air conditioning whatsoever, and it's one of the old gyms where the only windows are right up at the top of the general admission seats, right?Then they can just open them like a foot.
03:24:37And that's supposed to cause some kind of, it looks like a fucking basketball gym from Hoosiers, right, in the 50s.And then I go to the locker rooms and they're even hotter.And then I see them carting out this giant fan.And it's about five feet across.And they go to the concession stand and they get a bucket of ice.And they put a bucket of ice in front of this big fan and let it blow into the building.And I go and goddamn get a fucking chair and sit right in front of it.If you are less than 18 inches from this thing, it's actually come.
03:25:15comfortable.But more than that, and you're like at a sauna.And as soon as I had to take a piss and I get up out of my seat,the goddamn rock and roll comes in and sits there,so I have to goddamn k-fate.But anyway, I then go downstairs because I feel cool air coming from the basement,the stairs down to the basement.And if you walk down there, it was 20 degrees cooler.
03:25:45Because it was a natural fucking limestone cave with water dripping and the smell of mildewwould make your eyes water.So after the show, when I got home, I called Kevin.I said, Kevin, don't recommend any promoters to me anymore.I can't take it.My allergies won't put up with it.I just got sidetracked telling that story, didn't I?No, but it's good.
03:26:14I mean, these are the kind of stories we want to get on here, not just the ones people know, but...Not just the ones people want to hear, but the ones they need to.here. Let me play you some audio because I'd like to get your impression because this is a periodof time where I think you were still on the booking committee and it's maybe the longestbleep in terms of wrestling ever on TVS. Kevin Sullivan with Buzz Sawyer and Cactus Jack. Let me goto this. Kevin, this guy's got to have a little help. He got a lot of help. He's got me.Let me tell you something. It ain't the dog's fault. When his mother was carrying him and she'swalked into the desert because she was on Novan.
03:26:51She couldn't hold it any longer.She stopped.By the way, while this is happening, he has Buzz Sawyer, who's on the ground, a chain aroundhis neck, and Kevin's just holding it there while he's choking himself, Buzz Sawyer.Yes, mad dog Buzz Sawyer, big logging chain around his neck.Cactus Jack, who's from truth or consequences, New Mexico, and obviously deranged, andin Kevin Sullivan talking about Y.D's mother who was a Nubian.and as I remember it from the taping,
03:27:32there was something about squatting downand fucking delivering the,the infant right there where...You can read his lips, something about squatting and the cord.And Mick Foley, Cactus Jack is the most...Oh, that's right, and she chewed the cord.And Mick Foley is the most normal person involved in this whole thing,but let's go back to this.
03:27:54Because from the fetal position,He crawled the hot burning sands.That's me.He crawled the hot burning sand.It's me.It's me.God.It's me.
03:28:08He crawled the hot burning sands.And when he was burning up and withering,the she-wolf came.A dog looked up.And he was given the breath of life.It's not the dog's fault.He's just a pot.of the environment.
03:28:32He'll be okay.You see, because the doghas me, the dog family,it's okay, it's okay,it's okay, it's okay, it's okay,it's okay, it's okay,the dog has me,has finally found peace in his life.
03:28:52You see, all he is is misunderstood.We'll be backright after this.Did I say J.Y.D.I said, mad dog.Whatever the fuck. But yes.And also, with that one was, didn't the, didn't the she wolf kiss the dogs and give him the breath of the, I don't know what the fuck.I have to go back in the sleep was.
03:29:22But he's smacking Buzz Sawyer as hard as he getting right in the fucking face.Yeah, that's what he kept, when he kept stopping that one sentence, he's just slapping a shit out of his.Because Buzz loved that kind of shit anyway.Yeah, hit me.And he's slapping his shit out of him like he's, you know, training a goddamn wild horse.What do you think of him and Dusty together?You got to see them behind the scenes.So what do you think of their feud and their long running thing in Florida?
03:29:46And then, of course, for Crockett.But behind the scenes, what was the relationship like?Well, they worked great together because they had known each other so long.And they'd been, by the time that I was together with them, they had been, you know,they'd drawn so much money with each other and been such.great opponents.And that whole thing ran for two years in Floridauntil Dusty came to the Carolinas.
03:30:11And then Kevin, as you said earlier,took over the book down there when Dusty got the book for Crockett.But that's it.You know, Kevin, as a performer, he knewwhat he needed to do.And he was also with the guys in his group.He wanted to flesh that out.He wasn't going to overstep his back.
03:30:32But if Dusty came to him, Dusty knew that Kevin can either give good ideas or help flesh it out or understand what he's, what Dusty is looking for because they've worked together for so long.So that's the thing is that, you know, Dusty loved having Kevin working there on the card because he didn't have to fucking micromanage him.He could just give him shit and let him run with it.And he could make something out of it.Kevin and JJJ.J. Dylan got along really great, too.Well, yes.Same thing, they'd both been in the business
03:31:11for a, you know, a long period of timein a variety of rolesand were not assholes or power mad,you know, social climbersand understood how to do their thing.And it was easy to work with both of them.What's the secret to the stompthat Kevin used to do where he would stomp on the guy's belly?
03:31:32Well, I don't, I just say the same thing with Finn Baller.I've had people say, oh, no, they say you don't feel it.I don't know how.With Kevin, there wasn't as much of a secret as much as, at least he wasn't getting that much height.He wasn't getting that much air.He made it work, though.He made, you know what?And again, his earliest wrestling photos, they said probably to help him that he was 5-11.
03:32:00I think legitimately he was 5-7.and he made his size work with the style he worked in the ring.Yes, as a baby face, you know, he was powerful because, like I said,in the younger years, he was a powerlifter stocky body type and had a lot of weightand a lot of strength.People could see it, even though he was vertically challenged.But then as a heel, because he was constant motion, and he was aggressive, and he had thatlevel of crazy by that point.
03:32:35And, you know, he would, that's why he was close with the Sheik, because he was a big,he understood what the Sheik did to be special and unique.And that, you know, that kind of thing works when you're a heel and you're crazy.And he, but he could make it work with the sense of danger and urgency instead of just thethe walk fighting around.So even though he, again, wasn't that tall.he was always atin Memphis when he had been doing the bodybuilding
03:33:07he wasn't that tallbut he was goddamn shreddedand it actually made him look tallerand thenin the other erashe wasn't that tallbut he was 250 fucking poundsor whatever and you could
03:33:21tell that he had some oomph to himand the like you said the stylehe workedas a younger baby facehe could still sell he could stillbleed, make a comeback, or whatever,but as a heel,he really fell into that pattern of
03:33:38just trying to be dangerousinstead of going for arm drags.But then, and as you said earlier, though,you didn't see the goddamn fight in the arenafour matches out of seven.Right.It was unique.He was one of the few guys that you knew
03:33:57you would get a wild match out of.And also, and when Smoky Mountain,the next year,it was it was it was the next year after the stomper he had the fucking arena fight with the big boss manbubba came back and did it one year later i've got pictures of them up in the balcony i think that waswhenever the fuck i think that was that was 93 no that was 93 because it was the same week he just didit with stomper in fucking one town and bubba in the other town but nevertheless where was i goingwith that uh the wild
03:34:32matches and that you didn't see them all over the card back then. Oh, you didn't see them all over the card back then. And also,the fact that Kevin could make you believe that there was something going on with him mentally and that he was way toointo this to just be playing a part, so there was some element of legitimacy to it, that helped him dothings that it would be bullshit if other people did them because you could see through them. And he could go fartherover the... We talked aboutStone Cole, Steve Austinstomping a mud hole in somebody.But he was over like God
03:35:09so he could not even connectand the people didn't care.They didn't see it. They overlooked it.Didn't compute.Kevin in Floridahad that reputation of the pointwhere one of the...And now some asshole on an outlaw show
03:35:23was going to do this. It's going to fall like a fart in church.But the thing that Kevin didwith Blackjack Mulligan.And a people believed in Blackjack, too.all the rednecks and the country people down in Florida,the redneck Riviera over there in Penscola, whatever.They were at the Orlando Eddie Graham Sports Stadium,which was a big 10 building.
03:35:48It ceded like 5,000 people out in the middle of a fucking field.And they made a fortune there for years.And Kevin and Blackjack, they had double DQ,they spill out of the fucking ring.they fight out the back doorout into the parking lotand off into the darknessthey didn't even have fucking lights out there
03:36:10they're goneand people are running where the fuck they goand then the next goddamnweek on the same nightthey have wrestling once a weekthey ring the bell for the first matchthe first match gets goingthey've been going about five minutes
03:36:27and suddenly through the front door of the arenawearing the same shitthat they had been wearing the week beforeand still bleeding,bus Kevin Sullivan and Blackjack Mulliganand they fight into the fucking rentand the place goes out of their fucking minds.They didn't stop to think
03:36:46how could this be?They just, oh my God,that's the kind of shit he could get away with.That's one of the great spotsI've ever heard of of all time.You know, I got to talk a lot of baseball with him.That was one of his big loves was baseball.When the 86 Mets beat the Red Sox in the World Series, he was working incontinental.
03:37:09He had to watch it backstage, he said.A heartbreaking loss for him, but a few years ago, I'm looking at some of the text messages here.I wished him a happy birthday in October.And he wrote back, fuck L.A. and Mookiee.Although he's going to be a Hall of Famer, he better go in as a Red Sox.Love this baseball, Kevin.Did you see Fenway Park put him up on the screen, the scoreboard?That would have meant the world to him.
03:37:38That would have meant the world to him.And yeah, again, from my experience, and I met him when I was a kid, and that was an intimidating thing, even though it wasn't really supposed to be.It was just an autograph signing, but that accent, you know, nothing he could say when you're a kid sounded nice.I was wearing a Knicks shirt.He's like, how do you think the Knicks are going to do?I'm like, I think they're going to win.Who do you think is going to win?No, it's going to be Chicago, whatever he said.
03:38:03You yelled it at me.But, you know, getting to know him the last several years, he was such a nice guy.Like I said, always very giving with his time.He recorded a ton of segments with me.And he always just gave me unsolicited feedback, which from Kevin Sullivan, I liked.I like when top minds give me feedback as opposed to, you know, jerkoffs.Yeah, the unsolicited part is sometimes the rub, but with Kevin, you didn't mind.But with Kevin, I appreciated where it was coming from.
03:38:30So, from my personal experience, just a tremendous guy, a real guy.really nice guy and I wish he was still here, a really, really nice guy.Well, everybody,everybody heard what I had to say about how he helped me in WCW,not only my first booking spot, but in Smoky Mountain and trying to help because he knewwhat I was going through and what I owed to him for that.I'm not going to go through it again because then I'd just be repeating myself andrambling, but
03:39:04a lot of peoplewill remember him for a lot of good thingsand who else can you think of54 years after they started in the businesstheirpassing makes the kind of news his didnot only in a mainstream level but alsoamongst the fans and the boys.
03:39:27Made the New York Times.Made the New York Times and a scoreboard in FenwayPark andyou knowfor that long I mean he wasliterallystill working in the business as far asautographs and etc and had
03:39:45wrestled up until just a few years agoon an intermittent basissoI don't know a lot of peoplewhateverera it may be a lot of peoplehave never come close to that level ofinvolvement or longevity
03:40:01in this business. And I think we should all be proud of him for that.Absolutely. And of course, if you're a listener who wants to hear Kevin in his own words, go backthrough the archives. We've had many appearances with Kevin. Of course, here with Jim on the 605Super Podcast, telling his own story in his own words. But Jim, with that, let's take a short timeout.We'll be right back after this. We do have some more fun and frivolity on theprogram today and some of the modern wrestling.But at the start, we want to make mention, obviously, of the passing of Afa-on-Awa'i,Afa the Wild Samoan, just a couple of days ago as we speak.
03:40:48And I think he, I believe he was 81 years old, but this is so, it's got to be murder for the familyof what they've gone through over the past couple of months.but it's kind of apropos, not ironic,but apropos in a positive waythat Afa and Sika went so close togetherwhen they were so close and intertwinedin all the fans' minds for so many years,inextricably linked.
03:41:25But in, you know, Alpha had been battlingsome health issues for,quite some time and had still been kicking out and everybody was, you know, pulling for him.But obviously, I guess Dave Meltzer announced he had passed on Twitter about a day or two before he did.We may mention that later on.I'm not sure how much in advance it was, but it was definitely in advance.It was in advance.But nevertheless, you know, everybody has...
03:42:01you know, given the tributes and et cetera,and we just, honestly,not to try to shirk our duties,but as a professional in his career in wrestling,we just talked about the Samoans when we talked about Sika.So, you know, it might be redundant here.But I think at this point,we could focus more on Afa,
03:42:28the after the wild Samoamese,Owens, the trainer, the promoter, which obviously he was well thought of and he had been,what was it, Hazleton, Pennsylvania?Is that his, it's near Allentown?Is that where he was located?I don't remember the exact town.Well, I've been there because I worked for Offa.That's the thing I mentioned when we talked about Sika that, you know, that I had not
03:42:54interacted with him nearly as much as Afa because Sika had lived for years in, down in Pensacola,Florida, whereas Afa was in eastern Pennsylvania, and that's where his school was. He ranshows around the area for so many years, and especially when I was in Stanford in the office,you know, there was a lot of period of time when I was booking the guys for third-party promotionsor worked for him myself in some cases. You know, when I was on television managing somebody,whatever the casehe was much morepresent around the office
03:43:33and aroundyou know a lot of the guys in the townswhen they would do TV in the areaand actuallyhe was managingSamu and Fatuwhen we first got therein 93 me and the heavily bodies
03:43:49right because wewith Lou Albao eventuallywith Lou Albano and they wereboy that was the ugliest group ofbaby faces that I think I've ever seen him.I like him.Lou Al-Bano and Samu and Fatu and Fah together.But it was what it was because of the booking at the time.
03:44:10But we got to work with him.But Offa was a, he was a great guy.And, you know, I've heard so many people speak so well of him as a trainer.I didn't, you know, I wasn't at his school and witnessed that.but at his showsyou know that's one of thethe people that you could bookthe WWF talent
03:44:32out who is a third partythat you knewthey weren't going to be askedto do anything screwyor weren't going to bethere wasn't anything screwygoing to be done on the showhe ran professional
03:44:44professional wrestling showsand somebody will probably come upwith a videotape of well look he did thisand some local manager is quacking like a duck or whateverbut I'm talking aboutthe office knewthey weren't going to get bad publicityoffensive wrestling staged here
03:45:02you know guy pulls his fucking pecker outnoand nobody was going to beset on fire or you knowplummeted through furniturebut he ran showsin that area for what 20 years I guessso you always got your money
03:45:21everything was alwaysI'm not saying they didn't run some local shows,but everything was professionally donewithin the parameters of the environment.And I guess he's been doing the,still had the training school until, you know,obviously just his health took a turn recently, hadn't he?I believe so.
03:45:44And, you know, it's interesting to think about the ideathat if you were a fan 40 years ago,there were two or three,three Samoan wrestlers that you knew.It was Offen Sika, and then there was Samo who eventually became Samu.And you didn't know yet that he was Alpha's son.Then eventually you had Tonga Kid and then Fatu and in WCW under Paul Heyman actuallyis the manager and then Oliver Humperdegg.
03:46:13The three of them were together.It's amazing because like in the 90s when you were around this kind of when everythingexpanded and they were a family.in wrestling and then after a whilethey were the biggest family in wrestlingand Offa was one of the central figures behind the scenesbecause he always had a good relationship with VinceAnd you know that's that's the thing is there were other Samoans
03:46:36in the 70s remember Tio and Renoand Tio and Tapu after Tapu took over from Renoand it wasGod damn I think Reno's last name wasTufeely or whatever they wereI'm sure they were distant relationsbecause Samoan people come from a fucking islandso somehow distantly one would think they're all related
03:47:00but the point is thethe Anahuahi and the Anahuai familyovertook all of the other Samoannot that there were a tonbut the other Samoan wrestlers in the businessand the Quasayou know Samoans that tried to get by with being Samoansand pretty much their bloodline is now
03:47:24the only one existent in the business, isn't it?I mean, it's the biggest...On any kind of mainstream level, I guess there's...Wait a minute, didn't it?A.W. had some Samoan-looking fellows, didn't they?The Gates of Agony.Boy, they passed through them a long time ago to watch them,but nevertheless.
03:47:45But anyway, we just, we wanted to recognize Alpha and...again, you know, the tribute we did to Sika is available on the YouTube channel,which talks extensively about Afa as well and the Samoans as a team.But yeah, you know, you can't, they have probably surpassed, I guess by now they havesurpassed the Welch's and Fullers in terms of just numerical.Oh, yeah, no doubt.Well, no, hold on now. No, that is...Have we got to like 35, 36, whatever?
03:48:27If you don't count people who weren't actually related,like the Rock or Jimmy Snooka, like various people that they considered cousins are brought in.If you just count the actual...The real bloodline.Afa, Sika, Samu, Fatu, Tanga Kid.Again, not counting Haku.Rosie and Jamal.Manu.
03:48:51Alpha Jr. was new right there.Roman Raines.Are you doing this off top of your head?I am. That's nine.I've worked with a lot of these people and I can't fucking do it.Usos, that's 11.Solo Sacoa, that's 12.I think it's another brother, but I'm not going to count them because I can't verify
03:49:10the other brother.Did you say Jacob?Jacob. Oh, so there's 13.So that's just who's on the main stage or has been.that I could think of, let alone the other members who have worked in.Yokozuna.I didn't even think of him.Yocazuna.
03:49:27So that's 14 right there.He's.You know, again, with the Welchers and Fullers, if you count the Fields family, that's what really givesa padded boost, right?Yes, but also that means you count in-laws, in which case you've got the people that theymarried.Oh, Naomi.Naomi.
03:49:48Naomi and the Flying Burrito brothers.Well, she glows in the dark.She makes you just want to get up and move.Just get up and move.Yeah.Just...Anyway, Madonna.We're trying to be serious here.
03:50:04We've gone off on a tangent.But the point is,probably, I think, without question,the family dynasty in wrestlingthat has grossed the most moneyis,would be the honoron Awahis, which started with Afa and Sika.
03:50:23So I think that's a record without question.How many other wrestling families go five people deep?Like the Welchers and Fullers, obviously.The Grams and K-Fabe are certainly a...Well, no, but yeah, the Von Erick's.The Von Erick's.The hearts?Now you've...
03:50:45The hearts.There were three Miller brothers.Yes, definitely the hearts.The, you know, the aforementionedWelch-Fillard Fields Hatfieldarrangement.Five.Well, you know what? The Rock, if you look at his extended family,
03:51:08technically, Peter Myvia,Rocky Johnson, the Rock, Ricky Johnson,so as four members.I don't know if Rocky Johnson's other kids ever did it.any of them ever did.So that's four, but five.Five's the magic number.Ah.
03:51:29So now people are screaming at the, at the, uh,at whatever they're fucking listening to this on, right?So what we're trying to say is if you work for AEW,now is the time to take time off and procreate.Oh, good heavens.No, they, I, I don't think they're going to be aroundby the time that your progeny would be of legal contract signing age.You know, I'm glad they did get that one thing, though, to wrap it up talking about Alpha.
03:51:55I guess it was four years ago, kind of when the bloodline angle story was really starting to take off.They had the moment where Roman was there and he was presented with the red, whatever they call it, necklace of shells or whatever it is.The Ulifala, but I just feel like I'm mispronouncing it even when I'm not, so I just call it the Red Lay.Well, they give them thatOffan Sikadu at the entrancewayAnd I thought that's a cool thing that they did that,that they got that moment, you know?Yeah.
03:52:26You kind of think if they were healthierand, you know, they weren't young guys,but they would have been somehow incorporatedand everything happening, but it's good that they were at the very beginning.Well, yeah, because that, you know,and I'm sure that was a Heyman touch.I'm not saying that anybody disagreed with it,but to have that,
03:52:45the elders,you know, to on video, passing the blah, blah, blah.That was a big symbolic deal that people, you know, register on a subliminal basis.It's, you know, I mean, some people see it as cool as it is.And other, just still, it's impressive rather than some wrestling bullshit.So that was very good.And I always cite it as a match I love.Now's a great time to go back and watch it for anyone who hasn't.
03:53:13It was on the WWE network.I believe it would still be on Peacock under the W.W.E. Old school stuff. Madison Square Garden, October 1984,baby face alpha versus Dick Murdoch. It is so much fun. You have to watch. It's so much fun.Well, and you know, they knew each other from Mid-South also. So I'm sure, you know,they went back in a number of different territories. So I'm sure that was fun for both of them.Yeah, remember, they were managed by Ernie Ladd, and then all of a sudden they were with Akbar,and that's when Ernie Ladd said,
03:53:46Nobody manages the Samoans but me.Considerate a way they turn on.Yeah.And Ernie, meanwhile, was dressed like fucking Richard Roundtree and Shaft goes to Africa.And who just...And then here came the one-man gang.One-man gang.Who had just been managed by me as Crusher Broomfield in Fuggin, Tennessee,
03:54:12making 350 bucks a week, and suddenly goes to Mid-South andbecomes the one-man gang andsplashed Ernie Lad's legand broke it.Before we get to WW RAW this past week,of course they had an announcement on the show,but it had broken a few days earlier,and we were recording so we didn't get a chance to talk about it.
03:54:31So why don't we talk about the passing of Sid Udi,aka Sid Vicious, Sid Justice,Psycho Sid with a very unique spelling,all to himself?What do you think?Obviously, someone you were aroundsince almost the beginning of his career,and with the news of his passing,
03:54:49one of the clips people love sending around,is when he was revealed to be the partner of Ahmed Johnson and Sean Michaelsin split screen,and you had a little bit of a meltdown.Yes, and actually that was the...If you can imagine the state of the WWFat that point in time,when Sid was the more stable alternative to the ultimate,
03:55:13to the ultimate warrior who had just gotten firedand was supposed to be in that spot, right?And the thing ever since this happened,because we've told so many stories about Sid on the showat various points over the years,and the problem is, in this instance,possibly some of those might not be in good tastebecause the biggest stories about Sid were him, no-should.
03:55:43or holding somebody upor getting in heat with the office.It was...But then when you saw Twitterwith the outpouring of the clipsand the, you know, people talking about him,the fans,it was two different worlds.
03:56:01If you had to work with himin a promotionalor office, administrative,creative booking,production,you know,type of scenario, it was fucking bloody murder.But the fans loved him, and he got over pretty much instantly
03:56:22whenever he, you know, started appearing somewherebecause of the look and the intensity and the athleticism.So the fans loved him, but at the same time,all of the industry stories center around, you know,the softball Sid thing.And it said, so how do we carry on with this today and discuss him?Well, I think we can look at it from both perspectives.You from the person who had to deal with him as a wrestling executive and as a
03:56:54coworker.And me as someone who, when I discovered the NWA, one of the first guys I was a markfor was Sid Vicious.He had the coolest entrance music.If he wrestled, sometimes Spivey wouldn't get into ring.Yeah.He had an aura.I mean, I know it's such a corny word to use.
03:57:11But he had an aura around him that not too many other people did.He also did things that heels didn't typically do in terms of almost asking the crowd to cheer.You know, he would make those little hand movements, and the crowd would go nuts for him.Because here's a guy, six foot nine, doing all these big power moves, killing everyone,and then turning to the crowd to celebrate.Yeah, and he's built like a Greek god.You know, with that physique, at the same time, he can do a nip-up.Because, you know, I'll give you an example.
03:57:41nine years old, right?Well, right now or at one time?Maybe mentally. But in 1989, and at the bash, it's the skyscrapers against the dynamic dudes.Yes, that's what I was going to bring up, but go ahead.And they're almost cool to a nine-year-old, you know?They've got surfboards and they're wearing neon.You know, like, that's what's supposed to hit with a kid.You would almost want to root for them.
03:58:06How are you going to root for them against Sid Vicious?Yes.and the Baltimore fansI mean that was kind of the reactiona lot of wrestling fans had the Siddespite limitations in the ringand problems dealing with themthat was the kind of reaction
03:58:22he always gotand the thing is they would boo Spiveywhen Spivey was in a ray of boo they wanted to see Sidwhen Spivey got in a red Sidand then he'd tag and they'd fucking blowand the dudes weregoddamn burnt toastbut that was the thing
03:58:38remember they had to editthe WWF, you know yourNew York history better than I do.What was the pay-per-view?Well, it was the Royal Rumble, but what year where...Ninety-two.Hulk eliminated...No, Sid eliminated Hulk, and then Hulk
03:58:56held on to Sid and pulled him out and they booed Hulk.It's the year Rick Flair won.Maybe the greatest rumble ever.The last three are Flair,Sid, and Hogan.And if you're a fan of WCW or the NWA,you know there's a little bit of a historywith the two former horsemen,
03:59:11but they don't really talk about that there.But it's intriguing.Sid eliminates Hogan,the fans cheer.That was the big moment where finally,it showed that people were kind of sick of Hogan's actbecause it had gotten really,you know, corporatized.
03:59:28It was just, you know,when at the very beginning and, you know,he was kind of like a big wild steroid man.And then he all of a sudden,he was just, he was a bullshit artist to a lot of kids.and Sid eliminates Hogan, the fans cheer,and then Hogan from the outside of the ringjust grabs on the Sid
03:59:45and starts pulling at him, which is a total heel move.Yeah, sore loser.Yeah.And then Flair, the true heel,gets behind Sid and dumps Sid out of the ringwhile Hogan is doing that.And Sid's mad at Hogan.By the time that aired on TV,
03:59:58they edited it so that the fans were cheering Hoganfor some unknown reason.In that or a deal, there was no reason to cheer him.But, you know, that's, again,he could make an impact like that.And he's another guy that, you know, he hit at the right time, you know, with the explosionand television and et cetera of that period.And, you know, everybody had video.
04:00:24His career really, what was it, 13 years, 14 years between his first matches in Memphisand the leg injury.And, I mean, he wrestled a few times after that weight.after that, but everybody thinks he's always been, oh, Psycho Sid or Sid Vicious.And there were so many breaks in between when he would just go home.But yet they kept giving him chances and he would go in and get over.But then he would do something to get himself under with the company and he'd be gone again.And so that's why it was the, you know, the difference between trying to,
04:01:07of work with him in the ring where, you know, they're cheering the wrong people and or he,you know, it doesn't want to sell whatever, or he doesn't want to, you know, do this or thatexcept when he did, or working with him as the promoter of the booker where you're trying tomake plans and what the fuck is, you know, when are they playing softball?But the fans every time that he would go out there and do his shit, they fucking loved it.Can you imagine how good he must have been at softball?He's like Aaron Judge.He's gigantic.
04:01:42He would just be popping him all over the place.I don't know what was, I never saw him play softball, but I heard about it all the time.Did Lawler?Oh, I'm sure that Lawler's seen him play.I don't know if he's played him or had him on his team or whatever, but I'm sure therehad to be conversation between the King and Sid on softball.But that was the thing in WCW I guess in early 91.They heard, signed him to a new deal, had to have him,
04:02:17and what Sid had asked for was, I think, 400 grand a year guaranteed,which, what's that from 1991 now, you know, maybe a million in today's money.But 400 grand a year, he wanted the world title and he wanted softball season off.and they gave him the money and the world title.They just didn't give him softball season off.And I...They didn't give him the world title.I thought they did.
04:02:45He didn't get it until years later.Oh, that's right.That's right.Because he didn't make it on that deal long enough, I don't think, to softball season.Or was that when he quit for softball season?That's when he ends up going to sign with the WWF in 1991.And the last match he has for WZW is a stretcher.match against Elhigante.
04:03:07Oh, where he didn't go out on the stretcher.Yeah, he just walked out.He didn't go out on the stretcher.That was his goodbye to WCW, that match.And that's, you know, that's one of those early examples.And again, I'm not saying he was Tiger Mask or anything.But fans like me were into Sid because he had that aura and that personality thatnot too many other guys had.
04:03:29He's one of the first examples of someone, although people look back on the SidJustice run now, and they like you.it, I think it's one of the early examples of Vince not getting how to use someone rightout of the gate who came over from WCW, actually.Yeah.Yeah.And I agree with you there.How long did Sid, how long did Sid justice last, the name, the whole?
04:03:53Well, he started, he was there at SummerSlam, but I think maybe the month before.So let's say July, June, July 91.And then he left, he quit right when he was about to work the big program with him andthe Ultimate Warrior, which would have been amazing, coming out of WrestleMania 8, let's sayMay of 92.Oh, it just seems shorter.But yeah, I mean, see, here we are.We're talking, yeah, he did this and then he quit or he did this and he got hurt.
04:04:19And then he did this, he quit.And he left and went to the other place, but he didn't like, it was.And I've told the story before.I apologize if everybody's memorized the entire catalog of the YouTube channel.But that time in San Antonio when they brought him back in 97.when theyWell, no, it was that96 when they fired the warrior.
04:04:41Whatever the case.It was the goddamn San Antonio,the Joe and Harry Freeman Coliseum,because I remember I was so hotthat I was ill and almost threw upby the time I got back to the hotel room.It was like 110 in San Antonio that day.And Vince had insisted he come.
04:05:01He'd been off because he was injured.and Vince had me call himand I called and got his wifebecause he was out, he was playing softballor he took the softball team toOsceola or somewhere in Arkansasand I said Vince wants himyou know at raw Monday night
04:05:24he doesn't have to wrestle, he knows he's hurtbut he's got to make an interview appearanceand do part of this deal, right?Oh, he's not going to like that.he hasn't had time to train lately.He doesn't feel...Well, I said he's not wrestling.How bad could he look in a fucking month?
04:05:41I'm thinking to myself.We haven't said to him in a fucking month.What could he have deteriorated to?And she said, you know,Sid's often said that hethought he might be happier if he went backto selling farm chemicals.I don't know whether she's trying to just pour her heart out
04:06:00to me or negotiate with me on his behalf.like, you better give him more money, he might go back to selling farm chemicals.And I said, nevertheless, Vince wants him there, he sent him to plane ticket,Monday, San Antonio, he's going to do this interview thing, right?So he shows up.And I can't even remember the particulars, but the four top baby faces.Whoever they were at this point in time, is Michaels, is whoever the fuck,they all come out on the stage.
04:06:30and confront the group of heels in the ringand Sid is one of themand he didn't take his shirt offhe's dressed his street glowshe didn't take his shirt offbecause he felt like he hadn't tannedlike Jesus Christand then they were supposed to come back
04:06:49at the top of the hour, Seg 7and that was when Raw was a two-hour showand do some kind of run-inand whatever and pay the thing offand we started looking aroundfor, where's Sid?It asked Bruno, you know, R.V. Whippelman, downtown Bruno,because they went back to the Memphis days.
04:07:09And that was his manager, Sid, Justice.Yes.And we said, where's Sid?Oh, he came up to me.He said, he felt like he was having a heart attack.I said, where'd you take him?I took him back to the hotel.What?
04:07:24The holiday end for a heart attack?He said, he just wanted to go back to the hotel is so hot.Yeah, but what the fuck?Oh, geez.And he didn't make that segment.And that's when, oh, God, damn it, was it him that Vince said,I'm going to pro-rate your appearances or was it Warrior?Maybe it might have been both of them.
04:07:43Both these things may be true.But I don't know.He wasn't around long again after that.You know, that's sad to hear that.I didn't even put two and two together about him selling farm chemicals.because I guess one of the things that they're attributingwas passing to is the exposure to roundup.Oh, good, are you kidding?
04:08:05No, I read that.So I thought it was just from, you know, again, I missed it.Okay, I had not read that, so I wouldn't try to be flippant, as they say.Yeah.Wow.Well, who would have thought he got out of wrestling and it killed him?You know, he's an underrated promo.You may not like his style, but he was, and I don't know if he always made sense.
04:08:27but there was an intent again no one had this intensity he had certain intangibles that no one elsehad and he made it work for him he no he was a perfect promo except if he had to go too long orexplain one of the guys there's a lot of guys like this if they have to go too long or explaintoo much detail it it robs them of their intensity because they get lost or they just gethesitant as I just was.And that's why if you have the little managerto fill in the detailsand do the fucking bridges
04:09:05amongst this monsterhaving short, violent verbal outburstslike he could dotremendous,that's your key there.But one time againon one of the promos, it didn't even matterlike you said whether it made sense
04:09:22because it sounded so real that he was saying it.He actually, he did a promo and I can't remember what it was,but some way or another,he told the people in some twisted syntax that he was half as smartand half as big as his opponent or whatever.In WCW, yeah.Caust Scott Hall to start laughing at him in the middle of the ring.Yes.
04:09:50But, you know, but again, it's fucking.Sid and everybody thought he was goofy and out of his mind.And because he part, he was goofy and out of his mind.He went from screaming to whispering better than anyone.You know, he was able to, ah, ma, and I'll tell you.And then he would all of a sudden become Jake Roberts and lean in and you would see his eyes and, you know, it worked.What was up with Vince's spelling of psycho?I think it was something he wanted to try to trademark or just to, you know, have some illiterate.
04:10:22there with the SS, PsychoSid, not SS in terms of connotation of Germany, but justalliteration on the, on his logo.Let me tell you about my favorite Gestapo.Well, now that may, that may have come later, but, uh, but yeah, it was just the,the alliteration and so they could trademark the, you know, action figures and et cetera,etc.But that partially came frombecause that, you know, when I heard from
04:10:52Vince and Bruce, I remember bringing Sid, I saidhe's fucking, he's a psycho becausethe thing that had happened with Arn.And Vincecomes up, you know,changes spelling, whatever.Oh, he almost died, you say.How can I use this?
04:11:08Yes, how can I? Yeah, soI'm surprised theythey didn't license that music fromfucking Bernard Herman.Now I'm thinking about his music, did his music have like a fake psycho sound at the beginning?Yes, yes.I never even thought about that before. Wow.Yes, that's the goddamn deal, but they should have just gone all the way with it.
04:11:29Like I played the theme from Halloween for the Mongolian stomper.Play the fucking shower music.I like Sid better in the mid-90s when he returned to the look without the mullet that he had when he first hit in 1989.I didn't like him with long hair as much.Well, and it made him look taller when he had shorter.hair. That's right. I like them with Sean Michaels. You know, everyone talks aboutSean Michaels and Diesel. I thought he was really good at Sean Michael's bodyguard.Well, and again, that formula works when, you know, when both guys do their thing, but
04:12:02that's why Vince McMahon was so sold on Sid multiple times because he looked so good.And Vince knew he could just, like Donald Pleasance and Halloween, if he could just reach him,you know but he found out that those eyes were soullesshe couldn't keep him under controlfrom blowing up from having issues whateverto fully monetize him and that's the thingthey threw from 1989through
04:12:391998 what 8 or 9 with WCWa little bit after that yeah a little bit after that yeah a little bitor 2000, they threw money at him.He'd quit, leave, go home,mutual split, whatever the fuck,all the incidents,get fired for the thing with Arne.And he'd sit at home for a while
04:13:03and when the heat was off the other sidebecause of there was something there.They would get him.And then some would happen again.So he could have been much biggerand for a longer period of timebecause there were so many breaksin that period of time.
04:13:23That's a sad transition right there.What I was going to say is, you know,when he passed a couple of the matchesthat came to my mind were the dudes matchand I posted the link to the Lee Scott match,which is just amazing.Because the crowd starts coming alivewith each destruction of Lee Scott.
04:13:38And the match with Sean at the Gardenfor Survivor Series in 96,where the fans turned on Sean.Yeah.Sid became the biggest baby facein the world.that night.Unfortunately, one of the memories a lot of people have, and I try not to think about it, to be
04:13:52honestly, it makes me sick the image of it.Sid Vish is breaking his leg in W.C.W.What was your reaction when it happened?What did you think when you heard or saw it?Well, I wasn't watching live, but heard about it and then saw the tape, and that is just,but, and he had said later on and ended up suing WCW because they said, do this.But at the same time, why would you tell this guy to do that?Because the one thing about Sid, the entire massive body, he had kind of some bird legs down below there.
04:14:32But that was nothing that he had ever done.It wasn't important, as I remember, just coming off the second rope with a kick to a guy,how can that be an integral part of a finish?So I don't know if he ever won any money because could he prove that theyinsisted he do that and he said no I can't do that kind of stuffdid he get a big settlement?Was this reported?I actually don't know.
04:15:01I do know that most people who sued WCW ended up happy in the end, but I don't knowWell, WCW wasn't giving out happy endings.When I worked for him, I might have stuck around.They would give them out settlements.You sue them.They didn't want to...I mean, how many people sued just because they knew they would get a settlement at a WCW?No, I know.
04:15:20I know, but they certainly weren't giving out any happy endings.No, no, no.Well, you don't know what Jim Hurd and Jim Ross were doing late at the bar.Hey, now, come on!You don't, you weren't there.Or the bourbon for Hurd and...Well, uh...But anyway, but nevertheless, but yeah, that when that injury, leg injury to Sid
04:15:38pretty much ended his full-time career and he came back long after that to do just,just a few matches.But yeah, I didn't ever understand that deal from either side,why that they would insist.And here's the thing we couldn't get Sid to agree to come to work.We were paying him half million dollars a year.Why would he agree to jump off the fucking ropes on one leg for somebody?What the fuck was going on there?
04:16:09Well, that was our look at the life of Sid.I get him to say it because of the way you ended up.Well, no, but I mean, I don't.not even being disrespectful, but he picks then to agree to do something?I don't know.But again, a memorable character from the 1990s,one of the more memorable wrestlers of the decade in a lot of waysbecause he was in both companies on various occasions
04:16:32and had big runs at the top and often just disappeared or was fired or was sent home for,I mean, it was a variety of things.Well, and he would go back to Memphis and work for Lawler.because he lived in West Memphis, Arkansas,and that's where he started.Lord Humongous was, at first it was Mike Stark a long time ago in Memphis,and then Jeff Van Camp.He broke in here, he played football for the University of Louisville.
04:17:04And then, you know, when they wanted to bring the gimmick back,they put it on Sid, and he was the most impressive looking of the bunch.And then when the people found out it was him,is whenever he wouldbe gone from WCW orWWF but he'd show up in Memphisand those people would say this international starfor the next three weeks
04:17:23and then he'd go somewhere else.Do you think it was worth maybe looking intohaving like atour, not the Lex Expressbut like Sid going town by townwhatever town he's going to wrestle inhe takes on your softball team during a day?Ha ha ha ha!
04:17:41If you know you have this guy that can hit bombsput him in there against every schlub in townto promote the wrestling event.Yeah, but you know, it might have ended up likeGeorge Goulis when he had the wrestlersformed the basketball team so he could be the captainand they would go and play the local high school teamin the school that they were having the matches in that night.
04:18:02They'd have a ball game,they'd set up the ring during intermission,and then they'd have the wrestling.But one night in Rabbit Ridge, Kentucky,the fucking high school team beat to wrestlersand George got so mad, he canceled the matches.Why, are you serious?I never heard that before.
04:18:17Bobby Eden told me that one.Get the fuck out of here.That's amazing.Yeah, he said, they cheated.There was some referee call or whatever that he felt they had been wrong.Did he know?No, take the ring back.We're not doing it.
04:18:34Daddy, they cheated.That's nuts.I never heard that story before.But there you go, but Sid.That was it the life of Sid?Well, right.Well, before we talk about the invasion of Germany,we have to mention that I just heard this, gosh, this morning on the internet.
04:18:55Sunny King passed away, 79 years old.And we'll talk about that in a second.That surprises me.But is this, again, is this part of a curse with our show every time we tell a story about somebody,something bad happens to them?Well, again, this is a little different.I forget what even brought it up recently.We talked to, it was talking about Buddy Landell and Mid-South.
04:19:18And then, you know, it naturally went into the problems that they had.And that was the tail end of his career.And that's important to note because...That was the end of his career.84 was his last year.Yeah, I think that may have been the last place he worked, actually.And that's why I was said, because that's 40 years ago.That means he was 39 years old.
04:19:37Sunny King never...That's insane. Wow.Exactly.he never changed appearanceand he had such aintimidating look and demeanorto him when he wanted to that youyou didn't really have an age for him
04:19:53but his career was overin part with what we'll talk aboutthe attack that hesuffered in North Carolinabut he was only 39 years oldand he was done but he had hadhad a lengthy careerbefore that and was on top in all kinds of places.
04:20:15It was 1971 that he and Jay Strongbo were the WWWF tag team champions, right?That's right.And he worked on top in the Carolinas in the early 70s.We'll go ahead.What were you going to say?I was just going to say, and you never think of him as a Northeast wrestler.And there he is.Well, and I'm not sure, truthfully and honestly, how he broke in who trained him.
04:20:40what his early career was likebut that wasthe first time that people in the magazinesor people reading the magazineswould have heard of Sunny Kingbut then as I said hehe working to Carolinas on tophe made evented with Johnny Valentine
04:20:55when Valentine came into territoryhe was big inthe Louisiana partof Leroy McGurk's territorybefore it became Mid-Southand he was in and out ofMemphis territory because he got to beJerry Jarrett thought the world of him and they got to be good friends
04:21:16and he was I guessfrom 1978 until1982 would have been his last run here only four yearsbut he was here a lot of that period of timeboth as a heelwrestler and a heel kind ofwrestler manager for Joe LaDuke and Jean Louiewho was the hangman, Neil Gway.
04:21:42It's always my favorite name.Jean-Louis.Well, no, specifically Lance Russell, like,Joe Loduke and Jean-Louis, it's just that.Yeah, and they spelled it because at first they were spelling it like L-O-U-I-S,like you would in French, right?But then all the fans were reading it in the newspaper ad and started calling him John Lewis.So then they started spelling it, John Lewis.
04:22:09Louis, L-O-U-I-E, like Huey-Dooy and Louie.And here's this giant 325-pound bearded guy.Well, there's John Louis.So it just, but that was French to the fans in Tennessee, you know.But anyway, he was a manager for them.And then he came back a while later as a baby face.And he worked a lot as partners with Ricky Morton.Ricky Morton loved him because, you know,
04:22:39We've talked about especially the last couple years of Sonny's career and how physically and in the ring he was difficult to work with, not attitude-wise, but just his style was very unorthodox.And he had lost a few steps by that point.But he was a very intelligent guy.He'd been in the business and worked on top in a variety of places.So he taught Ricky a lot about psychology and how things.worked in other territory, things like that.And the reason whyJarrett wanted them as partners
04:23:17was because he had high hopes for Ricky Mortonand he wanted him to be able to learnso he would team him up with guys like Sonny Kingand then Tojo had a part play early in Ricky's careerand then Ken Lucasbecause the veteran could teach.But anyway, Riggie loves Honey.Was him at that angle when
04:23:38Ricky was teaming with Big Redbecause I always felt so bad for Big Redit was such a sympathetic thingwhere they just knock him to the groundand just tie him so he can't get upand then just beat the crap out of Ricky Morningwith Sunny King and TojoYes, yes
04:23:53And Big Red was allIf he was downWithout being tied upHe was almost immobile, right?So he could get up when he was tied likewith a shoestring or whateverBut that was, I spent the daywith Sonny and Ricky
04:24:08in Memphis one time after TVjust taking picturesI had great pictures of them with thebridge over the riverand behind them and onBeale Street and all kind of shitthat we just did for themagazine
04:24:23but that was the thingas sunny as I said he workedon top most of the placeshe went for the first 10 years of hiscareerandin his in the70s he was a better athlete
04:24:38but I think honestly it was he had a boxing background too so he would you know incorporate that butit was just a very unorthodox style that he had and I think his literate low-key promo and justhis demeanor and look and he looked like Isaac fucking Hayes and that didn't hurt in the 70sI think that's what got him over in a lot of place and he was what six foot three and250 and, you know, in shape at a time when that, that was not as commonplace as it is today.When you see him in Mid-South in 84, if you had told me he was 45 years old, I would have said,okay, I believe that easily.Yeah, because of how he'd been in, like I said, in 1971, he's already in magazines,
04:25:30WWWF champions, so 13 years later, and he always looked like a grown adult.And he shaved in 84, so he looked like.Somehow that made him look older than when he had to show him.And we're not talking about a shaved head.He was always bald, but the beard.He had a beard for a while.And like you said, it made him look older when he shaved his beard off.But anyway, I guess the thing we talked about the incident, or mentioned a minute ago,
04:26:00and we've talked about this before.You tried to find the promo on YouTube.And of course, of all things, it's not there.but the best promo that Sonny ever didcame off again of a real life thingand this is pretty much what finished his careerand him being that young because when he tried to come backit wasn't the same
04:26:19as I said Sonny had worked in North Carolinaand he was visiting thereI'm trying to remember I think he was he working hereor had he just gone somewhere elsehe spent some time in Florida too but that was earlier in the 70sHe definitely wasn't working there in Mid-Atlantic when it happened.No, but I'm saying, was he working here?I'm trying to think.
04:26:44But the point is he had gone to the Carolinas to visit just on a vacation or for some reason.And there was a show in Charlotte at the old Coliseum.And he went to visit some of the boys, right?And I've talked about how that, you know, especially a big crowd or whatever, the back door of the Coliseum,the guys had to go right to the side parking lot and get in their carand if the fans were out there you needed cops whateverand they would come to the back door also the fans try to get inand so there was one
04:27:19you know I can picture the classic old security guard at the Charlotte Coliseumbut there was one guard at one of the back doors and some drunk guyswere trying to push their way in and get in free and he was trying to hold them backand Sonny's just standing back thereand watch the fucking matchesand sees this and goes to help the guardand one of these guysends up having a knife and stabbing him
04:27:44I don't know how many fucking timesbut one of them actuallypierced his heart rightso obviously this became a bignew story amongst in the wrestling businessand I don't knowI can't even remember the date of thatI don't know how long he was out but it was months and months
04:28:03months.And, you know,that's kind of,you know, fan interaction you hadin the Carolinas back in those days.But anyway,finally, the bestangle they ever did, as I said,
04:28:19Sonny was good friends with Jerry Jarrett,and Jerry brought him backas a baby face,and this wasprobably spring82-ish. Am I, am I close?I think that's aboutright yeah and basically had sunny come out and do an interview and tell the story of how that he got
04:28:43stabbed and it punctured his heart and and this sounds like a melzer shippoopy deal but this wasthe truth and it actually can't happen they did open heart surgery on him and the scar was likejesus christ it was all way down his chest and stomach and they actually the the doctorheld his heartin his hand and massaged itas they were repairing and doing whateverfuck they needed to doand he tells
04:29:13this whole story and thatthat accent he's got he was from Louisianaand he had kind ofthat accent and also thatmatter of fact voiceand then he said the reason whythat he was coming back to wrestlingwas for his son Larry
04:29:32because he did have a son named Larryand he would be a nice kidhe'd probably be 45 years old nowor whateverbut he used to bring him to the matchessometimeand Sonny's license plateback when nobody had a vanity plate
04:29:47back in those days was Larryand he did this promoabout how he wanted his sonto see him wrestle againand blah blah so he's coming backand he's doing this for Larryand that registered rightit. I mean, it didn't sell out to Mid-South Coliseum,
04:30:05but it was a, it was the best,one of the best usages of a real-life tragedythat wasn't in bad taste that I've ever seen in wrestling.And, you know, but the problem is at that point,just I don't know how else it might have affected him,but the, the, he, his in-ring was, he, it just, it wasn't there anymore.And then the,the reason why he got spot in Louisiana
04:30:35was not only because dog had leftand they tried everybody else right as we've talked aboutbut Sonny was from LouisianaI'm pretty sure was living there at the timeand Dundee was booking and Dundee knew him from Memphisand thought well let's try and see ifyou know if Sonny can do anything anymoreand it didn't work
04:30:59but yeah it's amazing thatthat he was only 39 years old at that time.Well, there it is, Sunny King.And again, shocking about how young he was.You say that about someone who dies in their 70s,but still, you would have thought he was a lot older.Oh, yeah, because it was, so he was on top in Madison Square Garden in 1971, 72.That would, that's 52.
04:31:25He would have been 26, 27.So that is, you know, amazing.And something you don't think about.because of that incident, his career ended right about the time of home video really explodingand then 1984 comes and boom, boom, boom, and, you know, by that time he's done.The other thing is everyone looks younger now.Everyone dresses younger.You know, it used to be like you grew up and then you started dressing like an adult.
04:31:56And like the rock stars got to wear whatever they want.Well, but what about people's faces?I mean, they weren't back in those days.weren't taking a stick to other people's facesjust here, ugly you up, boom, boom, boom,and they looked more mature and olderand, you know, more stentorian lookingtype of visages.
04:32:17I'm using large words and phrases.But now everybody looks like they're fucking 12.You have a brain surgeon.It looks like a goddamn Boy Scout.What the fuck?My new doctor is a little too energetic, I think,for his own good.Why do you say that?
04:32:35Well, he's always happy.I don't want happy die.I want serious doctors.Anyway, and whatever happened to Sunny, we send our condolences out.I guess we should wrap that up.Jim, any thoughts on the passing of Kuniaki Kobayashi?Yeah, I'm surprised to hear it.I have no idea that this happened.
04:32:58When did this happen?It happened this past week.well nobody told me i didn't get a heads up on it um you know what he was a fucking badass in hisday wasn't he you know what he looked more like bruce lee than anyone else so when i firsttrying to get in japanese tapes i was a big mark for him the hair where did he where did he fallin terms of in between what rivalry of tiger mass where what year would i've seen him for was that82-ish.82-83, because I think he was after
04:33:31he was after dynamite.He was, I think he may have been reallythe last great Tiger Mask feud beforeSeyama quit New Japan and startedUWF with Maida and Shima.And they called him Kid Kobe,did they not? Oh, I don't know.I've seen some
04:33:47or I saw some magazines of the timeperiod with, you know, with the fucking karatestuff and everything. It was kind of,it was very cool, as you mentioned.Yeah, I always like those matches.Just as, I mean, the dynamite matches are incredible and they are the historic ones.But as far as actual matches go, like if you want to rate Pack versus Osprey ahead oflike Osprey versus whoever he's been feuding with for two years, the matches may have
04:34:12been better, Kobayashi and Tiger Mask.Oh, yeah, well, because they were doing some of these things, but they had still beentrained by people that had the contest came first.they didn't lose the thread of the contest,and the aggression and the emotion was there.And even though Japanese wrestling logic has always been different,you didn't get the idea that it just, here,let's stand here and let each other hit each other,
04:34:46or let's cooperate in this extended series of gymnastics, stale mates,that go nowhere and then shake hands.It was quicker movement, if that's possible, and more, it looked more impromptu, more, you know, like some legitimate escapes when a guy cartwheeled out of something and landed on his feet.You were like, oh, shit.He almost got him with that one instead of, oh, that was pretty.Like the people imitating Billy Robinson and Tony Charles only not being salty old fucking.Middle-aged 40-year-old fuckers that really knew how to shoot, but guys doinghomages, some of the video game wrestlers look like an homage to the type of things that they
04:35:36were doing in the early 80s, you know, junior heavyweight, light heavyweight division inNew Japan.I prefer that to the guys copying Eddie Guerrero and Dean Malenko.Endlessly.Endlessly.Well, Kuniaki Kobayashi, there it is.Check out his stuff if you have never seen him.Kuniaki Kilbiyoshi versus Tiger Mask
04:35:56and his red trunks, check it out.That would have to be on YouTube, right?That would still, because, I mean, we just,because you and I have the mammoth tape collectionsand or, you know, we've been watching this shit for so long,we just assume, well, yeah, you know, pop one of those VHSsin the machine and check him out.Can they get it on the YouTube?
04:36:18It's definitely on New Japan World, obviously,but I think there has to be some stuff on YouTube or Daily Motion.So Kuniaki Kobayashi.Let's start with a serious topic.And obviously it's one that when the news broke,a lot of the listeners started reaching out,wanting to hear what you had to say,because it's a name a lot of people first heard from you in a lot of ways.
04:36:38Joe Koff, former head of Ring of Honor.He had been a vice president,and then I believe a senior vice president for Sinclair Broadcasting,just passed away.And obviously you worked with him and you knew him.Well, and he had cancer that's been mentioned, and it had been known by myself and, you know, certain people for a little while now, but he had made a public issue out of it.And I guess it was probably about six weeks ago that he decided to stop treatments because he wanted to, you know, they were not going to be successful.and it was diminishing his quality of life
04:37:24to where he couldn't spend time with his family and his grandchildren.You know, I think I was thinking about it in my mind.I think besides delirious, Hunter Johnston,Joe Koff is the only person I didn't yell at the whole timethat I was there with that Ring of Honor periodfrom 2009 to 12.he was aevery one of the wrestling fans
04:37:55if you're an AEW fan especiallybut every wrestling fanshould be grateful to himif for nothing elsethen he kept Ring of Honor alivea couple of different timesfirst in you knowwhen they bought it originally from Kerry Silken
04:38:13and thensecondly whenwhen he made the decision to sell it to Tony Conrather than just sell the tape library to the WWE,they wouldn't have picked up anybody's contractsor hired probably a good portion of the talent or whatever.But he was a tremendous,and I don't want to say this the wrong way,
04:38:38he was a tremendous fan of wrestling,not that he was a mark or that he was trying to throw money around or whatever,but he was a tremendous supporter of wrestling.and he appreciated the wrestling businessand he always had and hehe didn't go crazywanted to be involved in itjust to be a mark
04:38:56he was involved inas we mentioned long agothe Florida office the Battle of the Beltspecials they did syndicating thoseand it was to the point whereEddie Graham wantedor Eddie may have been deadbut whoever was running the office
04:39:12Eddie was dead alreadyyeah they wanted him to continueworking for the company and trying to get them TV deals.And he just, well, he was more established in the career trajectory he was already taken.But so he provided a service for a lot of the guys in the business in that they had a place togrow and progress and flourish or whatever.And at the same time, he did everything he could.and when I've talked about all the chaos and the misery,
04:39:47that whole period cost me,it was never Joe's fault.He's the one that got him to buy it,but even he couldn't get him to spend any amount of money.And, you know, part of the,they had the overall Sinclair broadcasting,the bigger vision of buying up all these television stations.And, well, Brian, you know,
04:40:11you know more about the business work.but it's Sinclair broadcasting had like at one point a number of years ago.Last time I've checked, hundreds of millions of dollars, if not a billion dollars in debt, right?They had taken on an incredible amount of debt trying to put together these regional sports networks and buying up all these television stations.And it fell apart.It's not something that's very easy in this market and this day and age to do.If they had tried it 20 years earlier, it would have been a different story.But Sinclair, you know, in an era where less people than ever before watch network TV or local TV, they still own TV stations all over the place.
04:40:54Well, and when we started, and again, let me go back and start at the beginning, it basically started with when Carrie Silken called me after TNA had decided to let me go.after the whole Jeff thingand Dutch was goneand they found it inyou knowRusso had his way for a monthtill Hogan came inwhatever that whole bunch of chaos
04:41:21Carriehad talked to me about coming inand what can you do foryou know he was losing moneyand heloved the thing alsohe loved Ring of Honor and wrestlingand wanted to keep it going
04:41:37and I was pissed offat these other Yehusor waste all these opportunitiesand I said, Carrie, I'll find you something.I'll figure out a way to get you on televisionor a sponsor or help some way, talent, whatever.And you know that because we had some conversations in New York.But one of the people that I'd talked to was Gary Jester,
04:42:02who I'd known from the 80s and Crockett and et cetera.And he came to one of the showsand he said, this is an amazing live atmosphere.And I said, how do we get in on television?He said, I know a guy that works for Sinclair Broadcasting in Baltimorebecause Gary had lived in Baltimore for years before he moved down to Atlantaand had run the Baltimore Civic Center and bought time from Joe Koff that many years ago.So we went and that's where the talk started with Joe Koff.
04:42:38off the ideaoriginallywas just to get on those television stationsand a reason why I talked earlier about how manystations they ended up buyingat this timeI think they owned likewas it 55
04:42:54or 50 something television stationsand they would get to where it was whatdid they get up to like a hundred and30 or 40 something am I exaggerating that?I don't think you're exaggerating that.I don't remember the exact numberbut I remember being over 100.So the idea was that, you know, as they got on more stations,
04:43:13we didn't know they were going to get on that many.It would increase the coverage of Ring of Honor.And Joe got so interested and started talking,and they ended up buying the company outright from Kerry.But the problem was, as we mentioned,they didn't want to spend a lot of money past that.It took a number of years for them to start.spending any money on the thing.
04:43:39And, you know, that was my issue.You don't get a second chance to make a first impression sometimes.But also, you know, that was the thing is that the corporate world always has a problem mixingwith wrestling.We've seen that.And Joe was probably the greatest guy that has ever been the conduit between the corporateworld and the wrestling people.he was gentlemanly and nice and articulate and smart and he tried to do the best he could but
04:44:17you know that's that's sometimes those worlds just don't mix so joe i never had an issue withand you know he did the best he could in those early years while i was around and he always didthe best he could but that's you know um his his hisprimary position in Sinclair had been that he was the guy who trained and I don't know whether heoversaw him on an ongoing basis, but the different local sales departments at all the stations,he trained them.He had regular two-week seminars where they would bring all these people together,and he'd teach them out of sell television and sponsorships and value-added packages and et cetera.
04:45:06and that was another part of the idea for Ring of Honor originallywas not to just suddenly make, you know,tens of millions of dollars with live events,but be a value-added thing for the local television stations.And that's what he was so good at because he had trained a lot of people in the sales departments.He regularly talked to all the, you know, local sales management,and everything in all these stations.So that was, again, that was part of the original plan.
04:45:43And we found out later on, Sinclair wasn't going to give us the credit,Ring of Honor credit for the sponsorship money that the local television stationtook in in conjunction with our live events.We've gone over that many times in Ring of Honor talks.This is not spot for it here.but that, you know, Joe sent me off to a number of stationsto talk to the sales departments about how specifically to sell wrestling.And I enjoyed doing that because you could get them excited and go out and motivated.
04:46:18And boom, boom, boom, it made the program more profitableand more important for the local station if they were getting revenue off of it.But anyway, you know, you just a nice guy.And, you know, I think, like I said, not only were he and Hunter, the only two guys I don't think I ever yelled at, but when I cracked up and I had all I can stands, I can't stands in a more moment with the whole thing, the only two people I felt like I were letting down, or I was letting down, poor grammar, were Hunter and Joe.You know, I fell back because Joe had done all he could and got him to buy the thing and was trying as best he could.and Hunter was there left with, you know, a lot of stress on his hands.But so I hated to hear this news.You know, another thing about Joe Koff, Jim, is that he is one of the people responsible for All In.
04:47:18And I don't think he ever felt that he and Ring of Honor got the credit they deserve,because everyone pretended like it was just the Bucks and Cody doing a show,not that it was a Ring of Honor production produced by Cody.the bucksyou knowwell besides thatthey were all under contractto him so they could he had to let them do
04:47:40the thing to begin withand then yes they used theiroffice infrastructureand you knowthe ticket masterthings all the details of running a showand their productionequipment and or department and etc
04:47:58it was just it was produced bythe talentbut the whole thing basically was pulled off by the Ring of Honor infrastructure.Who got no credit for it, really?When you think about it.I mean, right there's a lot of people.Who then had a billionaire come along and sign up all of the guys after they, you know,hey, thanks, it's a nice audition tape you made for me.
04:48:21I think a lot of people that were involved with Ring of Honor behind the scenesfor those couple years there have a good deal of resentmentand for good reason with some of the people involved with allwho went to AEW because it was basically they gutted Ring of Honor.Well, yeah, they basically held the company hostage because they,the Ring of Honor was still small enough to where when they brought there at the time,what, you know, audience of a few hundred thousand indie fanatics to a company that size,it made an instant difference.
04:48:57And then they held the company hostage to do all of their cartoonishness.and build it around themand then they bailedas soon as they helped themmake an audition tapefor the billionairethat was going to spenda fucking fortune.
04:49:13But otherwise than that,it was great.Yeah, there are a few peoplewho stayed behindwho were like,what the fuck?But yeah,Joe Koff deserves a lot of credit
04:49:24for All In.And, of course,Ring of Honor does,but he was the person in charge.But anyway,you know,That's why they owned it.That's why they owned the actual footage until Tony Kahn bought Ring of Honor.
04:49:37And Cody said, what the fuck?But anyway, you know, I hate to hear this news.It's bad news.And Joe Koff has a couple of different places in wrestling history, which I think overall,I think he'd be proud to be included.Well, there it is.Jim's look.Had those we lost in 2024, wrestling history, great stories, so much more.
04:50:06Jim, any final words as we wrap up this omnibus?Yes, I was joking around at the top of the program.I'm not wishing demise on anyone.However, there are a few people that if they will have the courtesy to cooperate,I will enjoy discussing on next year's omnibus.So we got that to look forward to.Well, there you go.You have something to look forward to in 2025.
04:50:30Listen to the show.find out if there are any pleasurable deathsthat we'll be talking about on the next omnibusand of course the drive-through anyexperience available wherever you find your favoritepodcast on the YouTube channelbut until next time forJim Cornett I'm the great Brian last
04:50:44Telly-ho!
There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click any sentence in the transcript to leave one.