Jocko Podcast - 107: To Be a Leader, You Must Be a Life-Long Learner. Hal Moore on Leadership.

Episode Date: January 3, 2018

0:00:00 - Opening 0:06:45 - "Hal Moore on Leadership: Winning When Outgunned and Outmanned." 1:41:42 - Final Thoughts and Take-Aways. 1:43:00 - Support: JockoStore stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare and Discipline Pre-Mission, Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi, with Jocko White Tea,  Onnit Fitness stuff, and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes). Extreme Ownership (book), The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.  2:12:44 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 107 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. So the battle of Idrang Valley was over for now. And we just spent two podcasts talking about it. And one of the things that you forget sometimes about the military is that the machine rolls on. The machine rolls on. There's work to do and it doesn't it doesn't matter what you've been through or what you experienced or how many men or friends or leaders you lost

The machine is going to roll on there's still work to do at least it's going to try and roll on And that means normal things are going to continue to happen meaning that People are going to get reassigned people are going to leave the army people going to retire people are going to transfer you don't stay together You don't you don't stay together with these guys that you just went through whatever you went through with and as much as you might feel like a family with that group of guys you're not gonna get treated like a family in the military it's the machine is gonna roll on and with that in mind to close out the book we were soldiers once and young that again was covered in podcast 105

and 106 I'm gonna read one more passage from that book and here we go back to the book every morning during those final bittersweet days of my command of the first battalion seventh cavalry sergeant major plumley would appear with a group of men bound for the airfield and the plane that would take them home for discharge specialist for pat selleck of the recon platoon says colonel moore shook our hands and said thank you and go back home. I was the second or third guy he spoke to and he had tears in his eyes. I remember what he said. I see that you're married. You have a wedding ring on. Just go home. Pick up the pieces and start your life all over again. And basically, that's what I did. I came home to a wonderful wife,

tried to readjust, did a decent job at it. I did what Colonel Moore. said I tried to put the war behind me I served I did my job I came home I didn't ask for anything no fanfare no parades I went back to work back to school and did my best he might be a general but he's still Colonel Moore to me if it wasn't for him and all his knowledge and training, I don't think any of us would have survived the I Drang Valley. On Tuesday, November 23rd, the day came for me to turn over command. For the change of command, I requested a full battalion formation with officers front and center, the division band trooping the line, honors to the reviewing officer and colors, and then pass

in review, reminiscent of our weekly retreat parades back at Fort Benning. I requested that Captain DeDurich's Bravo Company, 2nd Battalion 7th Cavalry, and Lieutenant Sisson's platoon of Alpha Company, 2nd of the 7th, be included in the brigade of 1st Battalion 7th Cavalry in token to the fact that they fought bravely alongside us in the battle at X-ray. And so it was. The band played Colonel Bogie and the Washington Post March and Gary Owen. General Carnard pinned on my eagles and I spoke briefly and with deep emotion.

Spec 4 Ray Turner of Alpha Company First Battalion said, We stood in formation with some units hardly having enough men to form up. Colonel Howmore spoke to us and he cried. At that moment, he could have let us back into the eye-dang. We were soldiers. We were fighting men and those of us who were left had the utmost love and respect for our colonel and for one another. As I reflect on those three days in November, I remember many heroes, but no cowards.

I learned what value life really had. We all lost friends, but the bravery they showed on the battlefield will live forever. have tried here to remember and display and spread the word on some of that bravery that was shown on the battlefield so that it does live on and I think that is the least we can do that try and learn we must always try and learn and we can certainly learn from a man that had been through so much and was so respected and revered by his men. And so today we're going to delve into another book.

And this one is actually by General Hal Moore and co-written by another Army vet, a younger Army vet, another author, Mike Gordia. And the book is called Howmore on Leadership. And it's just that. It's principles and thoughts about leadership. that Howmore learned and then implemented throughout his life and his career. And again, if you haven't listened to Podcast 105 and 106 yet, go back and listen to those

podcasts first because that'll give you some context as to what General Moore lived through and why we should pay attention to what he has to say. So again, the book is Howmore on Leader. The subtitle is winning, win outgunned, and outmanned. It kicks off in the prologue. It says, all of one's life is a learning experience. I learned a lot of lessons along the way. I'm still learning.

These are values, principles, lessons I've learned, mistakes, successes, and my thoughts on leadership from watching, studying, and reading about leaders in action. leaders, mediocre leaders, and bad leaders. So he wrote this book. This book only came out. I actually have to check. It came out very, came out in 2017.

So this book is at the end of Halmore's life. And here we go. We're going to jump right into some of these principles. He starts off with four basic principles of leadership. Principle number one, three strikes, and you're not. out in the game of baseball three strikes and you're out not so in the game of life three strikes and you're not out there are two things a leader can do he can either contaminate his environment and his people with his attitude and actions or he can

inspire confidence good point there's always another way in life right sure three strikes four strikes you can keep swinging there's no umpire to call you out Back to the book, he must have and display the will to prevail by his actions, his words, his tone of voice, his appearance, his demeanor, his countenance, and the look in his eyes. He must never give off any hint or evidence that he is uncertain about a positive outcome. So that's something that, you know, we saw an action in the book. We were soldiers once in young when, you know, Rick Roscolla comes up and says, where they at, good. I hope they bring in everything they got today. Just even though inside he admitted he was worried.

Yeah. But and then you hear the reactions of the other guys. They were saying, well, that's, at least this guy's in the game. Look, I'm game. If he's game, let's go. Yeah. Do you think that that could elicit some sort of a blowback? It definitely could.

It definitely could. In fact, I have my note there. You want to see my note right there says, can you read that? It says, really? Yeah. Because it's one of those things. For sure. You're right.

And if you roll in and you're getting smashed and you show. you can seem oblivious to reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. He addresses that. Stand by. Here we go. Back to the book. It struck me early in my reading and school and later in life that is a common theme

running through books and stories about great leaders was their positive outlook, positive mental attitude, PMA. For all those bad brains fans out there, they were aware of the pitfalls. They were, this is your point. They were aware of the pitfalls and negatives, but they refused to fret and, worry about them. So there you go. We're not talking like, oh, this isn't happening over there.

Like remember Baghdad Bob? Are you old enough to remember that? No, but I think you mentioned it. Yeah, Baghdad Bob while tanks were just, while the Iraqi army was getting obliterated in the first Gulf War, he was sitting there going, oh, yes, we've had many victories. You know, he's just completely oblivious to what was happening. Yeah, yeah. And there's, I think there was literally like bombs going off in the back.

ground yeah bagdad Bob okay here we go back to the book principle number two there's always one more thing you can do to influence any situation in your favor and after that there's one more thing and after that there's one more thing and after that one more thing the one more things you do the more one more things you do the better your chances are for achieving success in any situation elite this is interesting a leader must create time to detach himself mentally and ask one of my what am i doing that i should not be doing and what am i not doing that i should be doing to influence the situation in my favor so he's talking about detachment i agree with him clearly yeah that's a good it's good to have

those like specific things to ask yourself when you detach you know how like oh i'd always ask yourself like okay what do we have here but even that that's like a broad question that's too broad right yeah that's like that's way better that's good yeah if you think about if you think about your life yeah and you've you were constantly saying like what what what should i be doing right now and what should i not be we're all doing things that we should not be doing right yeah well you know not me but yeah oh you're you're perfect perfect so we're all doing things that we we we know we shouldn't be doing yeah and we're all know that there's things that we should be doing that we're not so detach look yourself do an assessment.

Yeah. I'm sure that's like a gold mine of things you can change right there. For sure. For sure. Here he says, a leader is paid to do three things. Get the job done and get it done well. Plan ahead. Be proactive, not reactive.

Exercise good, sound judgment and doing all the above. To get the job done, the leader must have a clearly defined mission along with specific goals and objectives. So, there you go. Brandon Pickworth hit me up. Sure. Because the last podcast, I was talking about goals and he had sent me a text about getting belts.

I think it was about getting belts in Jiu-Jitsu. And I think that's what it was. But anyways, he was basically calling me a hypocrite. Because, you know, my thing is like, hey, you train to get better. You don't train because you want this thing, right? You train because you have a, uh, I should see it's not that it's not that there's no goal there but your goal is different your goal isn't a material item of cloth yeah your goal is to get better at jiu jitzu Brandon yeah you're on lockdown you want to hear a very seemingly far-fetched analogy to that but it's not so the other night I was

making arts and crafts with my daughter with Presley oh you just chilling out do it's a paper machet Yeah. So, so, what did she do? She went, basically I said a joke, right? And then she laughed at it. No, no, no. She said a joke. And then I laughed. And then so she said, I'm going to, I'm going to say this joke again and laugh again, just like how you did before.

Yeah. So I'm like, so I thought about that. Of course, I did it. But. Week. Story of my life right there. But, um. So she says it, I do it right.

And then I'm thinking, like, isn't that interesting? She got the laugh and that was a big payoff. But here's the thing. In a way, she shouldn't be focusing on the laugh. She should be focusing on saying funny jokes. The laugh just comes with it. Bro, she's four. Would you take it easy? No, I didn't tell her that.

But you see what I'm saying? No. Same thing. Jiu-jitsu, you focus on getting better at jiu-jitsu. The belt will come as kind of like a result, a little byproduct, if you will, just like the laughs. So, you know, when you're telling jokes, go for the fun. moneyness not for the laugh

The laugh will talk to Presley I'll pull her aside Have a little chat with her Well maybe you know Brandon Pickworth you know maybe He'd you know find that very enlightening Just saying Tighten him up

He did by the way he did do his hundred burpees In sub 10 minutes He actually got it I forget what his time was Yeah I never went back there To do that man Didn't you did it easily I did it? It depends on what you mean But easily

You did it or not I did it for sure I did it with the They might as well say it was easy. Did you have minutes to spare? I had a minute to spare. If I remember correctly, I had one minute to spare. And I knew that at like the last.

So you coasted, cruised. Yeah, I coasted into the finish line. That's cool. It was still kind of. I was sore the next day. I was actually sore. Really? Yeah.

Brandon won his video. He did good burpees. I'll give him that much credit. Better burpees than my normal burpees for sure. Okay. Yeah. Like his burpees look, they look clean. Yeah.

Yeah. So mine. They didn't merit like 12 minutes. Sure. But he got that down. Yeah. Yeah. If you would have saw my burpees and said,

hey, those aren't full, all of those aren't full burpees, I would not be surprised. Put it that way. I still can't really go. All right. Going back to the book.

The smart leader should always think through the what ifs and have a plan on how to handle them before they occur. Time so spent is never wasted. Things do not always go as planned. So again, he talks a bunch about planning, and he's like, yeah, things don't go as planned. And we all have to remember that. The smart leader must also be mindful of his organization's constraints and center of gravity. There can be one or several constraints that inhibit getting the job done.

And I think we all kind of understands that. And he says that the constraints must accurately be defined. But the center of gravity idea was a little bit more interesting to me. Here we go to the book. The center of gravity is the principal thing or activity that must be in balance or under control for an organization to operate. It is the organization's source of strength. In addition to understanding your own center of gravity to protect it,

you must recognize and attack your enemies or competitor's center of gravity to defeat them. In that battle in Vietnam, my center of gravity was the landing zone. So we was talking about the Hydraink Valley. And he knew that and locked that thing down and fought hard for it. Dean, I was training with Dean, I don't know, a few months ago. And then he was teaching a class and one thing he said that was really interesting and really smart about Jiu-Jitsu is He's like hey when you're on the ground

You can't have your balance attacked meaning if you're on the bottom Yeah, you can't have your body you're already down there so you have to mess with the person's balance on top Yeah, he's like they can't mess with your balance because you're already down there Yeah, you need to mess with their bounce Yeah, good point huh. Yeah, exactly. It's one of those things Yeah a lot there's a lot to that Yeah, man There's a lot to that.

Interestingly, it's like now you're, because you're talking about like a really deep fundamental concept, one single one. And a lot of times we don't learn all of them, you know, in jiu-jitsu and obviously in life too, but we don't learn all the fundamental concepts. So even you can go through life and be successful, you know, varying levels and then get introduced to one fundamental concept

that'll just like, dang. And this is something that you know, I know. We all know if you did jihitsu, you know that if you're on the bottom, you got to sweep to get on top. You know that. But what he was, he wasn't even saying sweep. Yeah.

He was saying you have to, you have to attack their balance. Yeah. Because you can't have your balance tacked because you're on the ground already. Yeah. You attack their balance. And it's just going to open things up. He wasn't talking, you're going to sweep every time. No, you're not.

You're going to get the arm lock, though. You're going to get a position change. You're going to get rolling them into a heel hook, right? Yeah. But it's interesting when he talks, like when, when Hal Moore or General Moore here is talking about, not only you have to know your center. of gravity, you gotta know your opponent's center of gravity. So that's what you attack, which is interesting.

Because people would most heavily defend their center of gravity, you would think. And therefore, it would be counter to the Sun Su principle of don't attack to heavily guarded area, but, or a heavily defended area, but you gotta find a way to get through to their center of gravity. Otherwise, you're not gonna put them off balance. You're not gonna win.

Yeah, like that's one of the goals. you know, is to attack that. Because some people, I mean, even, because Dean TOR totally clarified the concept for you. Yeah. Where it's like this is going on in the game. Yeah. And, you know, maybe in certain circumstances it's intuitive, like, okay, I'm going to attack this guy's balance because specifically I'm going for a specific sweep or whatever. Maybe it'll come in and out of your mind.

But if you have that clear in your mind that that's part of this whole game that we're playing. Yeah. And back to the sunsuit. Well, just because this is me figuring out right now is just because you're attacking their center of gravity doesn't mean you have to do a frontal assault on it. You should still flank it. Exactly what I mean. Yeah.

But now, at the end of the day, now that's part of my goal. You know, my goal isn't just to kill everyone or whatever. It's like, okay, we're going to attack this center of gravity specifically because that'll open up, you know, and everything else that comes with it. Yeah. But it's clarified now. It is. Back to the book.

While getting the job done, the leader must plan ahead and create the future. He must be proactive, not reactive. Truly great leaders have acuity, our perceptive, aggressive, enthusiastic, can see trends, analyze them carefully and correctly, have a vision, have confidence in it,

and can inspire and motivate himself and his people to make it happen. That's a big laundry list of things for a leader to be doing. That's why leaders, that's why leadership is a hard job. Think about all those things that just rattled off.

He must have a positive attitude and must hate the word no. He must have smart, trained people to run day-to-day activities. He must check up on them and make sure the job is getting done while he stacks the deck for future success. So you can see right now he's not micromanaging. He's getting people that can do the job and then he's looking forward.

Principle number three, when nothing is wrong, there's nothing wrong, except there's nothing wrong. That's when a leader has to be most alert. Complacency kills. Leaders are paid to create order out of chaos. History is replete with examples of leaders who failed. because they became too complacent. In the days and months leading up to Pearl Harbor, American military leaders were confident

that the Japanese could never strike American soil. Our naval intelligence said that Pearl Harbor was too far out of reach for a Japanese naval task force. They were also convinced the harbor was too shallow for a torpedo attack. Instead of prioritizing the threat from an aggressive naval enemy, the Army Air Corps commander at Wheeler and Hickham Fields put a higher priority on the threat from spies and sabotage. saboteurs. They grouped the planes together at the airfield to make them easier for walking

centuries to guard on foot patrol. But when the Japanese bombers arrived on December 7th, the clustered American planes became turkey shoot targets. Didn't know that. Didn't know that. Wrong threat assessment. And now you're doing something that's actually going to help your enemy's real attack. But it's complacency.

principle number four trust your instincts instincts are the product of one's personality experience reading and education that's interesting right he puts reading in there

you're actually getting experience from reading and you know how it said that general Mattis general Mattis he reads I think he has a personal book collection of like 5,000 or 7,000 books personal book collection it's good and he said he that's to prevent him from being surprised because if you know history you know the future but that's a great definition of what instinct is because people think instinct

is this something that's some mysterious thing right but no it's your personality experience reading and education yeah as far as the context he's putting it in i mean instinct obviously is clearly defined as something else what is it clearly defined as I didn't say I knew Oh, okay No, no, no, you know how like animals have instincts to Oh yeah And we have instincts to procreate

Like all this stuff like that I mean obviously he's talking about a specific concept Yeah, he's not talking about the instinct to procreate No, no, no, no something else But I'm saying You know what I mean It's not that is mystical Yes, his definition is not mystical

Yeah It's like hey, read Learn experience That would be your instinct And then yeah So you know like how You know your gut feeling kind of thing So yeah it's

If you don't have any experience and any, like you're not reading nothing. And you don't have any, you're not going to have many gut instincts. No, you will. You'll still have many. Yeah. They'll be wrong. Yeah. Isn't it funny?

I was talking about this with someone when, uh, sometimes like with an injury, let's say, you have an injury and you think, I'll just do this. But what you're doing is actually completely wrong. Yeah. Yeah. That happens to me sometimes. Yeah. I'll have an injury and I'll say, you know what?

I'll just keep stretching it. Yeah. It hurts a little bit, but it'll be okay. I think that's helping it and I'm just wrong. Yeah. Just completely wrong. Yeah. And so let's say you were, you did that just over and over again, over and over and over and over again, which you probably have.

But I'm saying the normal person, you do it over. Then the instincts will kind of recalibrate itself. Yeah. Yeah. And then eventually I go, hey, this doesn't work. And now my thing becomes, hey, demobilize that broken wing or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. Check. Just like if you don't know Jiu-Jitsu. you get into a fight with someone who does no jih Tzu, you're going to do your instincts that you know, which is nothing, by the way. And your instincts are going to be completely wrong. Completely wrong.

But you do Jiu Jitsu. I'll push this guy off me. Yeah, exactly. I'll power out of this or all, you know, I'll go all super hard. That's a great example. Yeah. And then when you learn Jitsu,

it recalibates your instincts now. Now your instincts are good. Yeah. And proper. Unless you get one of these tricky guys who knows your instinct. So he's going to base his instincts off of your ins, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Now we're getting into a strategy. though yeah that's true all right back to the book it's a kind of he's talking about instinct it's a kind of six cents when seconds count instincts and decisiveness come into play in quick developing situations the leader must act fast in part confidence to all around him must not second guess a decision make it happen in the process he cannot stand around slack jawed when he's hit with the unexpected. He must face up to the facts and deal with them and move on. When my head tells me to do one thing and my gut tells me to do another, I will always go with my gut. Why? Because my gut, because my gut, as I've learned, is rarely wrong. Now that's a bold statement right there.

Yeah. You got to, if my instinct are telling me one thing and my brain is telling me something else that is to me that's time to reassess what's going on because i got some conflicting things happen yeah going because i'm fairly logical in thinking through things and if that is getting completely countered by just some emotional feeling which kind of that's what an instinct is right that's that can be might even be it can be emotional yeah right so you got to watch out so you got to watch out for yeah it seems like in a emotion or a situation predicated on emotion strongly like a I don't know a relationship with somebody I'm just gonna go with my in this case not your gut your heart yeah well yeah people say to go with my gut

yeah you're wrong no no yeah you're probably wrong on now and think about it think about it think the logic logical side yeah back to the book instinct is a kind of caution light an early warning or a gut feeling which can on occasion result in a far better decision than one based on a logical process. One rule of thumb I learned more than 60 years ago at West Point is, if there's a doubt in your mind, there's no doubt at all. In other words, if you know in your heart that an action is wrong, don't do it. One of my sons calls this the rule of doubts.

Above all, never try to fake out, deceive, or fool the people under you. Not only is it wrong, but the troops can smell BS from miles away. Hmm. See, and that starts to make more sense if it's something that's wrong. Yeah, well, then it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Then it makes a lot of sense. Rather than right.

The way I heard would hear this in the teams, I didn't know it came from West Point, but they'd say if there is a doubt, then there is no doubt, which I guess is the same thing, which is shorter. If there is a doubt, then there is no doubt. And that means what? Meaning. Meaning. Meaning, meaning there's no doubt that it's wrong. Yes.

That's what you are. Or if you're saying, wait, I don't know if this is the right thing to do. It's probably not. Okay. Probably not. Instincts. Like when ducks fly south for the winter. Wait, is it's north or south?

They fly south for the winter. Yeah, yeah. That's an instinct, by the way. I don't know what that is. Is that an instinct? Yeah. Cool. Straight up.

Just like, like if you're a baby, like suckling, you know, so you can feed, that's instinct. Interesting. See. Back to the book. Back to the book. The discipline that makes an effect. leader begins in the home in most cases learning comes through observation and experience it is through the parents and or legal guardians where we first begin to understand right

from wrong and success or failure in having guidelines and expectations set before me as a young boy having to tow the line was the standard of every day while I remember my mother and father requiring discipline and proper conduct there was an equal balance of love fun fishing reading religion and daydream Yes, daydreaming. Discipline. Cool. Daydreaming makes sense, but you don't automatically associate that with discipline.

No, you don't. You don't. But if you follow your daydreams all the time, then you won't end up with anything. So you have to have them both. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next one. No job is ever beneath you. In whatever you do, do it to the best of your abilities.

Next, the best leaders strive to create a family environment within their organization. A good leader aims to make his subordinates feel that they are valued members of a team. The same loyalty that goes up the chain of command must also go down the chain of command and across the network of subordinates. And by the way, of course, as always, I'm not reading this whole book. There's all kinds of better detail in the book itself and explanations. and I'm hitting the wave tops, as they say. Sure.

I like this one a little bit. The first person you have to lead and discipline is yourself. Good versus poor choices make all the difference in the world. Conquer. Back to the book. To be a leader, you must be willing to be a lifelong learner. The leaders who fail are those who think they know everything or that they have nothing left to learn.

They resent having to learn. something new or adapt to a new situation got to be humble this is interesting I like to do a lot of listening that way I pick up a lot of good ideas many from subordinates when you listen you know twice as much as the other guy what he knows and what you know just also whenever the boss talked I not only listened but I took notes I still carry three by five cards today so that's that's a great one if you let someone else talk I was doing security detail in Iraq my first deployment over there and I and

we picked up a high high ranking officer and we were the security detail form and he was picking up some subordinate officers along the way and it was so interesting how this high ranking officer depending on who got in the vehicle because we met with multiple different subordinate officers of his and this is American guy what's that oh yeah these are all Americans all Americans but the senior officer

he he would barely say anything and the guys would get in and you could hear them you know at first they'd sort of listen for a minute and they couldn't handle it so they'd just start talking and they'd tell the boss everything it's a great technique you just sit there quietly and these people are spilling their guts

yeah isn't that a negotiation for sure for sure yeah where you just don't say anything. Just don't say anything. They'll be like, well. Yeah, you can make people uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah.

But that's a great way of looking at it. When you talk, you're, and that same thing happens in any situation. I've said it before on this podcast. The more you talk, the less people listen. Yeah. Just the way it is. Yeah.

He had kind of some challenges getting into West Point. And he did get in and he had a couple lessons learned from that. Never say no to yourself when you need to ask for something, make the other guy say no. That's a good point, right? Like, I'm not just going to say, oh, Echo would never say yes to this.

So I'm just not going to ask him. No, I'm going to ask him. Echo, can you make a couple more videos? Worst thing you can do is say no, which is likely. Yeah. I forget if I read this or listening to it, but there's two kinds of askers, people who ask for stuff, right? There's two kinds.

One, who thinks like that where it's like, the worst they can say is no, so might as well ask or the second. kind who is like he you know he might say no but i you know how like some people i don't know if you're like this maybe you're i don't know but some people they're uncomfortable when to like saying no to someone like it's like you're the bad guy you know kind of like hey can you retweet this charity or something like that and yeah if you say no you're the bad guy and that's an extreme example of course but the people are like that but some people they're if they're i forget the name of the asker but if you're the kind of asker that's like oh the worst thing

they could say no if you're that kind of person someone asks you you have no usually have no problem saying no but if you're the other kind where it's like dang now he put me into the in a position to be the bad guy they're way less likely to ask for stuff because they don't want to feel that way they don't want to put that person in that position so it's like yeah the worst they can say no but i don't want to put him in that position because he's going to feel like how i would there's like two kinds of people but it's weird when you get the clash of the kind of person, let's say I'm the kind of person who I don't want to put you in the position to say no. So I kind of, I'll be real shy to ask.

But you're the opposite. You're going to be asking me for stuff. And I'm going to be like, I won't answer you. I'll be bothered by a few, you know, for a few days and be like, man, I can't believe he's asking me to do this. You know, I can't believe he's asking me to get you right. When you should just say no. Yeah. No.

But in my mind, if I say no, now I'm the bad guy. Now you're in my mind, you're at home saying, I can't believe like he won't do this for me. You know, you go through all this stuff. But yeah, that's when you get that clash. Dude, it's tormenting living in your head. Bro, I take it. Me, I'm like, no, next question.

See, but then even when you say, like, no, like text message fully with text messages. You know how you'll be you say it in real life, but at least I can see the look on your face. Yeah, yeah. You're kind of half joking. I see it and all this stuff. But in text message, you say no, period.

Right, that's it. So I'm like, no, chocolate's an enemy. He just mad at me for something. He wouldn't have said it like that. You know, but so yeah, you make it really hard, man. People read into a lot of stuff. And that's obviously you have to read into some stuff to figure out what's going on. Yeah, bro.

Sometimes people go crazy with that. Are you even married? Bray, you got to read into everything. Every little thing you got to read into. Hey. I am married, by the way. Yes. So you got to, you know.

All right. Back to the book. Never quit. Obvious. next one find a way to turn every minus into a plus good there is a solution to every problem some are more complex there's than others there's always a way uh while he was at west point he learned about toxic leadership and here we go they were they were putting um under the command they're putting his squads and here we go each squad had two different squad leaders one

month with each. I've never never forgotten those two men the first one was arrogant was an was an arrogant sadistic person who screamed and yelled at us made us do unmerciful physical exercises apparently with the goal of driving the week to quit the academy I despised that man a leader should never be arrogant spiteful condescending or engaging gossip to the contrary he should always act with humility and treat his subordinates with respect and dignity as a leader your words and action have greater impact on your subordinates than you realize thus choose your words carefully. Avoid sarcasm and flippancy. Do not insult or take digs at anyone's intelligence. Remember, everyone processes information differently and at different speeds. Don't automatically assume that someone is stupid or indifferent because they haven't mastered a particular task yet. That stuff is so important. This is something that I screw up.

because, you know, being in a, growing up in a seal platoon, everyone's always, like, picking on each other. What's that called, verbally sparring and cutting each other down? You know, that's just the way it is. And I still have that in me. Like, I still have that in me. Really? Right.

I don't know. Do I not do that to you? So, but I can do that sometimes when I know I should. I'm like, I'll do it to my kids sometimes. I'll do it to my wife sometimes. And I'm, and so. Sometimes I don't realize it until afterwards. And the thing is, in my mind, I'm kidding.

Yeah. Like, it's all good. Like, I have no ill will, but, you know, you can't do that. Yeah. So that's one I need to always be careful of because I have a tendency to treat other people like their E5s and a seal put in with me. And that's not always good. Yeah. Especially the white thing.

You mentioned that before the white thing. Yeah. I said this was the other day, January 1st, right, first day of the New Year. And I forget what my wife did. Yeah, I forgot what you did. But I was like, what a loser, right? Yeah, yeah. And here's the thing.

I've said that plenty times and, you know, whatever, to her and she said it to me or whatever. But here's the thing. But either way, it was kind of, it's not like with you. if I said that or something like that or whatever. You'd be getting choked. There would be a consistent reaction, I think. 100% consistent. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Where you'd be like, yeah, it's obviously I don't really think you're a loser. The fact I said it is part of verbal smart, whatever, that's a consistent kind of interpretation. Verbal you, she's, yeah. But so she said back, she's like, oh, first insult of the new year. Kind of like, sure, that was her joke back. right like you know the first of the new year it's still a little it's still a little like

and what I interpreted that or read into it is that dang like it didn't take you much time to start messing with me like that you know like it's like oh that's what she said yeah yeah that's my interpretation you were right yeah I think I was I felt it immediately and I was like dang I got to you got to be careful

with that kind stuff if I said that did my brother you wouldn't care. Yeah. This continues. Back to the book. Contrary to popular belief, yelling at and berating your subordinates will not make them move faster,

nor will inspire their loyalty. In fact, it may encourage them to begin plotting your demise. Many years from now, your subordinates will not remember what deadlines were met, what sales were closed, what products were shipped,

or what training schedules were executed. What they will remember is how you, the leader, treated them. whether you inspired a climate of trust and dignity or ruled through fear, metrics, and intimidation. It's interesting. And again, that's something that I don't do. Like, I might take jabs at people in a fun way

that sometimes are not as interpreted as fun as I want them to, but that don't yell at people, I don't berate them, don't do anything like that. And this is 100% right. When you see people like that, it's not good. And when I started on this, like working with civilians, I think they actually, people actually thought I was going to come and yell and scream.

Yeah. You know, and I'd be like, no, I, and Laif and I used to be like, Leif, when we worked together for 18 months, how many times did I raise my voice at you? And he'd be like, zero. And we sometimes make the audience guess, you know, or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And Laf always cracks the joke of like, there's a lot of times he wanted to yell at me. But, you know, we, you know, like, that just doesn't work.

Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting how people think that you're going to do that. I know. Maybe because you. Maybe. Yeah, maybe that's kind of part of the whole thing, the whole picture, you know. But why do they think that? Maybe because you yell and scream at other situations.

I don't, though. Well, I have a few videos of you yelling and screaming. Yelling and screaming at what? I don't know. Stuff. When you get into other stuff, you don't never yell and scream at someone. Oh, you mean like I'm like, like, I'm fired out. Oh, okay.

Well, that's a little bit. Yeah. If I'm raising and my voice is being a little bit more poignant. Escalated. Yeah, escalated. That's not screaming though. Yeah. So that's not yelling and screaming at someone, you know?

No. So maybe they just like feel that. Yeah. That's a lot of fire coming from this guy. And he's real effective in leading people in hard, intense situations. so they may just draw that connection maybe It's weird The movies make it too

Yeah Because people are yelling in boot camp Here we go to Another thing from West Point This is Showfields Major General John Showfields Of Civil War fame

This is his definition of discipline So now this is cool Because we're talking about a guy From the Civil War Right Here we go the discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment.

On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than make an army. It is possible to impart instructions and to give commands in such a manner and in such a tone of voice as to inspire in the soldier no feeling but an intense desire to obey. While the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due others

cannot fail to inspire in them regard for himself. While he who feels and hence manifests disrespect towards others, especially his inferiors, cannot fail to inspire hatred. against himself. So again, that what's cool,

that might sound all new worldy. That's written civil war. That's civil war, right? That's old school. And he's still talking about, hey, you've got to respect your people. You've got to treat them well. That's a great definition

of how to impose. And I use that word. You're not imposing. That's the point. You're not imposing discipline. You're open. the door and showing the way and leading that's what you're doing cultivating an environment of discipline very much very nice I like that now he goes into the various brands of toxic leaders

I'll burn through these bully leaders those who inflicts emotional pain deliver threats and ultimatums hurt insults and invalidate the opinions of others narcissistic leaders those who are arrogant and self-congratulatory this brand of toxic leader will often contrast his own abilities against a subordinate shortcomings. Look at me, I can do this so easily. Why can't you? Insular leaders. This brand of leader forms clicks

and goes to great lengths to ensure that his followers are shielded and enjoy special privileges. These are all different brands of toxic leaders. Hypocrical leaders, this is the one you talked about earlier. These leaders live by the mantra, do as I say, not as I do.

And rarely practice what they preach. The hypocritical leader will hold his subordinates to a high standard, but won't apply that same standard to himself. As a leader, you should be applying a higher standard to yourself than your people, for sure. Enforcement leaders, this is interesting. Enforcement leaders, this mid-level leader seeks the approval of his superiors without regard to his subordinates welfare. He will consciously follow orders that are bad, unsafe, or illegal, only to stay in the good graces of the organizational culture.

That's bad. Those guys, those are bad leaders. You see them in the military. They're just, they only lead, they only do what they're told to look good, but everyone hates them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting, like you talk to someone

that was above them in the chain and command. And they go, oh, yeah, that guy's a great guy. Yeah, you're super. And you talk to someone who's blow, I hate that guy. Isn't that funny? That Schofield's definition, he said, you cannot fail to inspire Your hatred.

Hatred. Sure thing. Treat people with distra. You know what that is? I think that is. Psychologically, right? Human beings, we want to be free. We want to have, we want to determine our path, right?

Sure. When you take that away from someone and just crush it, they, they spite you for it and they hate you for it. Whereas if you can say, hey, look, you can execute this mission how you want, Echo Charles. Yeah, yeah. You can do what you want. Here's the goal. You figure out a way. As opposed to, here's how you're going to do everything.

My way. My way. Next one. Callous leader in similar vein to the enforcement leader, the callous leader has a blatant disregard for his subordinates' welfare or desires. Credit hog leaders. These leaders show their toxicity by taking credit for an employee's success or contribution. They resent the notion of giving credit where credit is due.

Blame shifting leaders, the mirror image of the credit hog, is the blame shifter. This leader is quick to point the finger for anything that goes wrong, and many times he actively looks for someone whom he can assign the blame. The blame shifter will often maliciously accuse someone of wrongdoing without evidence or probable cause. That's a person that does not take extreme ownership. A bunch of toxic leaders that he talks about there. here's another thing he talks about as a leader of any stripe you cannot simply give orders

and expect your subordinates to follow them blindly to the contrary you must establish a clear intent addressing the why and the desired end state it will never suffice for a leader to say because I said so as a reason for performing tasks if you can't justify the rationale of an order to yourself don't make your subordinates do it. Re-evaluate your reasons and find another method. Have you ever said that as a parent? Because I said so. Yeah.

Every once in a while you got to bust that out. No, it's stupid. It doesn't make sense to do that. And when you say everyone's why you got to bust it out like like saving time or something like an emergency situation. Hey, we look, I'm telling you just put your shoes on. We got to go like that because I said so. Yeah, I mean, that's that's what happens.

And you know what happens in the military too where you don't always have time. You know, if you're in a combat situation, you know, you can't say, hey, take that building over there. And the reason why I want you to do this because bubble, you know, you don't have time to do that. So, but you have trust with your subordinates and they know where you're coming from and all that. Interesting. So really when you really break it down is you never want to do that ever, right? You never want to be just because I said so, ever. But, life's not perfect.

Well, this is the, emergencies, all the stuff. This is another thing that Laif and I talk about is, there's times definitely where I was like, Laif, hit that building over there. Right. And this is what's cool. There's also times, because I was the guy that was in charge, there was also times where Laf had looked at me and said, Hey, Jock, move your out to Humvee over there. And I was like, oh, okay, because he needs me to do something.

Yeah. So we have a mutually supporting relationship. Yeah. It's not about like, hey, I'm the one that's out here barking all the orders. We're doing, we're trying to get something accomplished. together. Right. And if he told me to do something, I know he's got a good reason why.

Because if he had time to tell me why, he would tell me, hey, can you put your Humvee over there? Because we're about to, you know, move guys out in this, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. I don't need to hear all that unless, unless I've got my Humvee there for reason. And now he's saying to me like, hey, move your Humvee. Hey, hold up. I got good coverage down this road.

Oh, okay. I didn't see that. Can you push it back eight feet? Yeah, we can move it. Okay, cool. You know what I mean? Yeah, fully. So it's good.

We, we're cruising like that. sure yeah but that's guys but as far as like the actual dynamics of why you shouldn't say because i said so because it's not in your case let's say you don't have time to explain why right and you they just say move the humvee right and you just move the humvee still even if he didn't explain why the reason still isn't because i said so and you know that because of all that the reason the reason is because there's some tactical situation that you know unfolding that Yeah, of course. Yeah.

So it's one of those things where ultimately you never, it never, you never should be like, because I said so, never really should. But in the event of not having time to explain or whatever, even though there's an explanation needed, in the event of that ever happening, you need to kind of build trust.

Yes. So you can kind of alleviate that. Absolutely. For the lack of time or whatever. That's exactly what I explained to people when I talk about Laif and I on the battlefield that we had trust with each other. So if we, you know,

if I said to do something, He'd do it and know that I had a good reason for it. If he told me to do something, I would do it because I know he had a good reason for it. And then later on, he'd say, yeah, you know, I need to do that move that Humvee because we had, we, we were blocking the fields of fire from inside this building. Like, oh, okay, cool. That's where I moved it. We're all good.

So without that trust being built and you put that on top of my expectation of you to just follow my order without asking why as a parent or whatever. that is wrong. That's what you're saying. You should not say, that should not be a leading slash parenting. And also, you got to remember,

you can get away with it for a little while. Like a new chief checks into a seal platoon. He says, hey, guys, you know, do this. The guys are going to do it. Yeah.

Like, they're going to do it. There is a chain of command. There is a rank structure. Yeah. But if that's the persistent methodology of leadership, it's not going to work for the long term. That's what you got to remember.

And when you do occasionally say that like when I would say to my guys to do something They do it like they do it because they because it was so seldom that I would utilize like some sort of Okay do this now. I would very rarely exercise that that power over the guys and it would probably I mean I'm just assuming now But and it's probably because you never went to the because I said so. Technique. No. No.

Yeah. I don't think I actually ever said that. So the lesson is, even in situations where I would want to say it. Like sometimes I'm right. You know, sometimes I'm right. You're wrong. Yeah.

And I remember there was that we were running a block of training. And the guys pulled out this certain element of training. And I said, hey, why did you pull out this element of training? And they're like, well, you know, they had some, they gave. their reasons which were all wrong. And I, and I was like, I was like, uh, well, no, here's, here's the reasons why you're wrong there. You're wrong there and you're wrong there.

But they were kind of adamant. And I wanted to just say like, hey, shut up and do what I'm telling you to do. We put that, put that element of training back in there now. And I held myself back from doing that. And I'm glad I did. Of course I'm glad I did. Because, because here's the deal. If you're right and you can articulate it.

I mean, eventually I just took me more time to explain to the guys. look, that element of training, it might not be happening right now, but it could very easily happen again in the future. Here's some examples. Here's some places we are in the world. Here's other elements that are out there that are doing that same thing right now that we could easily get folded into. So we need to continue to do that type of training.

And they were like, yeah, okay, makes sense. But that was, you know, that took 20 minutes. That took 20 minutes. I knew I was right. 100%. No, no, no doubt in my military mind at all. Yeah. I wanted to just say, hey, shut up and put the element back of training.

Still didn't do it. But I didn't do it. It hurt. I wanted to do it. Yeah, that's how. Yeah. I wanted to do it. So really, almost ironically, the less that you do say, because I said so, the more you can.

Yes, absolutely. Just what I just said before, the more you talk, the less people listen, it's the same thing. Yeah. The more you demand people do things, the less you can demand of them. The less you demand people, the more you can. Yeah, so the more use that tool very sparingly as a leader very sparingly and you know you kind of went down that rabbit hole But this one if you can't this other thing going back to the book I already read it but I'll read it again if you can't justify the rationale of an order to yourself Don't make your subordinates do it

This is something I get asked all the time. They're like well what if What if somebody came up and said hey and they told you to do something that you didn't want to do But that you didn't think was right? I mean I wouldn't do it They're like really? It's like yeah of course really and here's the thing This is what they don't realize. They think that everyone in the military is like running around, giving orders that are stupid and don't make any sense. That's not true.

You know, when I got told to do things that didn't make sense, one good example that was taking Iraqis with us on the battlefield, and they were saying we had to take a ratio of like seven to one or whatever the ratio was at the time. And it didn't make sense. And I said, no,

we're not going to do that. And I ran up the chain of command. They're like, yeah, you're right. It doesn't make sense. You don't have to do it. Take what you can.

And we were like, okay, cool. There's a perfect example of me, being like, you know, I'm carrying the line. I'm a company guy. I'm all on board for the big win.

But if you tell me to do something that's stupid, I'm not going to do it. You know, it's funny. I heard that about you. What'd you hear? That, that's what you,

it was one of my friends. Obviously, we know him, but he'd be like, Joko's so, such a badass. He'll like, the way he talks to the superiors

is like, it's so gangster. He'll be like, no, we're not going to do that. It doesn't make sense. You know, whatever.

And now that you're like explaining it to me, It makes more sense. Because I wouldn't be that gangster. Yeah, but in their mind, they're like, oh my gosh. Yeah, because I would be explaining it to them. Yeah. And you've got to be very careful that you're not coming across as arrogant,

that you're not coming across as no at all, which sometimes I would have a tendency to come across like that. And I had to be very careful. I'd check myself sometimes because you want to. It's the same thing. Just like you, I want to tell my subordinates, like shut up and put that element of training back in there. You want to tell your superiors the same thing.

And, you know, hey, shut up. That's a dumb idea. But you can't do that. Yeah. And all you're going to do that, then is what you're going to do is you're going to make them mad at you. The same thing that I just talked about going down the chain of command goes up the chain of command too.

So if I treat, if you're my boss and I treat you with disrespect, you're going to hate me. And it's going to work out worse for me because I'm on the bottom side of that little pyramid we've built. Yeah. So when I would talk to guys to my superiors and say that something doesn't make sense, I would do it in a very respectful way. And again, I had to be careful because sometimes, especially people that didn't know me if you didn't know me maybe that usually the people that didn't know me well I might come

across as more arrogant you know and which is bad I'm not saying like that that's bad I wish I wouldn't but if I didn't believe in something I wasn't going to do it and I wasn't going to be a jerk about it but I'm like hey here's what's going on if we take these number of guys in the field with this many Iraqis we're not going to have all the people that we should have in the field to be safe you know you're talking about leaving behind a corpsman you're talking about leaving behind a radio man you're talking about leaving behind a close air support fires guy those are guys I can't go in the field without or someone could get killed and the up the chain of man I was like you're right cool yeah and then this didn't again there would be occasional things but it doesn't

happen all the time where people are giving you stupid orders my bosses didn't give me dumb didn't tell me to do dumb things yeah and I'm sure that's kind of what and you know what I did they were little dumb things and you know what I did them yeah we did them little pawn little things you want to do something you want me do something stupid but small small and stupid I'll do it and I'll do it and I'm I'll save my objections to things that actually matter. Yeah, makes sense. Goes back to that paper.

Lave talks about doing paperwork. And I always, you know, we don't want to do paperwork. And I'm like, hey, we're going to do the best paperwork. Because it's a little thing. We don't care about it. You know what? So we've got to stay up an extra hour and do some paperwork.

Who cares? Yeah. We're going to build that trust. And that way, when we come time to say no for real, we'll be able to say no for for real. And the bosses will listen to us. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm sure that that added to the whole cache though, you know, where when you did say something or did push back or whatever, it would, you'd still get the results, you know, where someone who may not understand that fully, as much as you did, they'd just witness kind of the, kind of the end and be like, dang, jock who's gang. They're like, yeah, he'd make his stuff happen up the chain. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Because, you know, because to my guys, I might be like, hey, guys, I'd be like, hey, guys, be like, we're not doing that. And they'd be like, oh, shit. And then I go to the, go to the boss's office and be like, you know, and deep, hey, sir, I'm just wondering about this plan. We got here's like to do. And then I'd like to do it. And then I come back, we're not doing it.

Nearly, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, maybe that is, you know, level three gangster. Here's another one. Leaders stay informed of current events, and they should anticipate challenges based on those events. Just be informed of what's happening. That makes sense.

Here's some other West Point lessons learned. I was able to function mentally and physically in top form with only five to six hours of sleep a night. Just saying, take that for what it's worth. I don't advocate sleep deprivation. but I'm just saying there's an example there that you might want to listen to. Another thing that he learned at West Point, read.

I love to read books and have since a very young age. At West Point, I discovered a magnificent library loaded with books on military history and leadership. Ever since then, for more than 60 years now, I've been fascinated by the study of leadership, military, political, business, athletic, et cetera. And within that, a focused interest in why leaders fail. Remember, a good leader is a lifelong learner

who continually studies to perfect his craft. It's interesting to hear these great leaders read. Again, General Mattis is the classic. 5,000 books in his personal library. Hopefully we can get him on the podcast to discuss some of his favorite books. Okay, after he graduates from West Point, he missed World War II.

He goes to Japan, and he's in the occupation of his, Japan back to the book I was flown up to Japan in October of 1945 and was sent north on a train on the 11th airborne divisions jump school or for the 11th airborne's division jump school arriving in Tokyo Central train station I was struck by the cleanliness of the place and by the hundreds of Japanese soldiers in uniforms sitting on floors leaning against walls all unarmed no weapons and showing no anger toward American soldiers a Japanese rail conductor showed me to a spotless alcove with a short bunk and clean sheets the train left on time

and I arrived in the next morning exactly on time here was my observation these people were six weeks out of a five-year war and they had already began cleaning up and disciplining their services when they get back on their feet watch out even in the midst of defeat carry yourself professionally and maintain your discipline. That is the quickest way towards recovery. Interesting story. The Japanese, we just lost a five-year war.

We got atomic bombs dropped on us. Guess what? Okay, we lost. Sign unconditional surrender. Unconditional surrender. That means you have nothing. You have no power, zero, nothing. Unconditional.

Unconditional surrender. You know what? Keep your uniforms on, be squared away, get the trains running, clean this place up. Yeah. We got to get back.

We got to get back together. Got to get back in the game. It's kind of like if a girl breaks up with you, right? No, it's not an unconditional surrender. No, no, I'm not saying the surrender part. I'm saying to clean yourself apart.

Yes, clean yourself up. For sure. Take this way to recovery. For sure. Don't go drink spiraling, letting yourself go. For sure. If you get back in the gym, right,

start reading. What else? When you go, when you're, when you're 100% right. You are right. When you are defeated. Yeah. The best thing you can do is maintain your discipline.

That's the best thing you can do. Maintain your discipline. Yeah. Be surprised how quick you get back on your feet. There's very few people. Some people are the reason they're jammed up is because they're not paying attention to things they should be paying attention to.

Like they're working out 17 hours a day and they're not paying attention to their family. Sometimes those guys get into scrubs, right? And I kind of got to say, look, man, you're in good shape. You need to spend some time with your, you know, with your wife, with your kids. Give a little bit back. Because that, that happens to team guys sometimes. Yeah.

Gotta be careful that one. We're, we tend to be workaholics. Yeah. And the work is so fun that it just like can take over everything. Wait, so, so what is that, how does that, does that contribute to their recovery in other situations? Well, or let me, let me, let's, let's just. just say there's a family problem going on right yeah yeah he's the guy do this he's he's he's in the game right he's well he's gonna work out even more he's gonna go to jitza even more yeah but what he's

doing he's not helping the problem yeah you see what I'm saying this is the most people don't have that but most people have the opposite problem yeah when they get down yeah when they get down they go uh you know I don't feel like working out I'm just gonna drink yeah pizza and donuts right that's what most people do a lot of times seals will be like um not feeling good cool I'm gonna work out harder yeah yeah yeah Oh, my family's not fun right now. Cool. The gym is fine.

Jit-to is fun. I'll go surfing on a nine-day trip. Dang, that's like a feedback loop kind of, right, in a way. So it's like, okay, there's an issue with my girlfriend. I will make it less serious. The issue with my girlfriend. Girlfriend's giving me grief, whatever. I'm not around or something like that, or I'm not sensitive to her feelings.

You know, how I'm going to deal with that. I'm going to go work out and go out with my team guys, which makes the problem worse now because you're paying attention. less even less sensitive to her feelings with a girlfriend is the one thing though with the wife is another thing yeah yeah because the girlfriend the guy would be like oh cool the wife is a different scenario yeah they got kids and they kind of yeah it means one it's a big you just you just your example wasn't good because you took a big you took a big you took what you thought was a small step but it was a big step too there's too much of a difference in the example so same

example wife and kids as opposed to girlfriend boom feedback loop yeah yeah you this is what I'm saying Instead of the guy going because normal person good, man, I'm not feeling good because my Because my wife, my girlfriend a normal guy. It's like, hey, well, you need to get back in the gym, get your game together, get up early, get on the program. Yeah, yeah. And they'll start feeling good and they'll start feeling good about themselves. And then they'll start being a better person and being a better husband. Yeah. You say that to a team guy. They're like, okay, cool. I'll work out 19 hours a day. And the other five I'll be doing jihih Tijuana. Or whatever. Next, a good, leader studies the culture of any location where he's planning to go and ensures his subordinates are properly educated on the same. Here's a good one. When in charge, take charge. But treat your subordinates with respect to dignity and common courtesy.

Here's another one. A worker's performance often reflects the attitude of his leadership. If you want something done, ask nicely. If a subordinate forgets to perform a task, don't take it personally. Just remind them nicely. In any organization, everyone has a to-do list. While juggling these tasks, some things will inevitably fall through the cracks. When this happens, don't assume that the subordinates lazy or stupid.

Simply re-engage them on the task, and if necessary, emphasize why it's a priority. If a subordinate performs a task and the outcome is not what you expected, don't attack their intelligence or character. Politely explain the deficiencies and offer an idea for solution. Subordinates quickly lose respect for a leader who is all problem and no solution. Speaking of problems, wherever possible, solve problems at the lowest level. When leaders are confronted with disciplinary problems, be it willful, disobedience, negligence, or honest mistakes, they must resolve these problems at the lowest level before raising the issue to higher echelons.

If the problem can be fixed and remedy instituted at lower levels, it will benefit your relationship with your subordinates, improve the health of the organization, and not divert higher level resources away from their priorities. Solve things at the lowest level. That's, yeah, I used to say this exact same thing to my guys. Especially when it, well, when it came to anything, but the topic would come up a lot of guys getting in trouble. Like, hey, if a guy gets in trouble, solve it. Like, solve it at your level. And if you, and if you don't think you can contain it, tell me.

What do you mean get in trouble? Oh, guy gets in trouble. DUI or something. Well, DUI is a pretty big one, but guy gets into a fight. Yeah, guy gets a new fight out in town. Hey, if you can, hey, you can punish him. You know, the platoon chief hears about it. And the platoon chief says, oh, I'm going to punish him.

He's going to be doing brass pickup or whatever. He's going to be doing something. Cleaning the military vehicles is always one of the best. Wax the six by. That's, you can handle it there. You don't need to tell the platoon commander, the task unit commander, now it could be different if the guy gets in a fight and now he gets arrested because now we're going to hear about it because they're going to find out the guy's in military.

They're going to want to contact the chain of command because that. That's what they do. That's their policy. And so now they're going to contact the chain of command. So now can it be contained? That's the question. If it can't be contained, then you've got to run it up the chain of command because you don't want your boss to get, get hit. What's it called?

Blindsided. Right? Yeah. One of your, Chaco, one of your guys was arrested yesterday. Why didn't you tell me? You don't want that to happen. If you can contain it, contain it. If you can't, you got to tell the chain of command.

Yeah. But you should try and contain it. Be like, hey, we got it handled. Boss, there was a guy I got in trouble yesterday. Here's the punishment I dealt out, and here's where we're, you know, here's where we're at. No one wants to be the senior guy with a secret. Have you ever heard that before? Senior guy with a secret.

A senior guy with a secret. Meaning, meaning if you did something wrong and I find out about it, that means I'm, I have the secret now. Yeah. And if I'm above you in the chain of command and now my boss finds out, well, now I'm going to get in trouble. So it's the easiest, the easiest way for me to do it is to be like, hey, boss, Echo did this wrong. He got in trouble. And then my boss now has the secret. Yeah.

Or is he going to tell his boss? Fully. Right? That's like the friend, you know, who catches his friend's girlfriend or something, cheating on him. And it's like, shoot, I don't want to, do I want to ruin the relationship or, you know, that kind of thing? The relationship is already ruined. You're right, right, right. So that's not a good example.

No, it's kind of a good, maybe not cheating. No, because there was a movie. called, I think it was called this, I don't know if it was called the secret, but that's what it was predicated on. And so that's the whole thing. He didn't want to, he put it this way. If he told, if he was, if you'd tell the secret, he would like, I don't know, ruin some relationship.

And if he didn't, it was like they'd be fine, but you're the senior with a secret. Yeah. Then, of course, at the end of the movie, you know, they, they find out, you know, the big reveal. Who is that? Vince Juan was in it. Anyway. Talk to someone else about that stuff You didn't have your own podcast

Echo movie reviews No, man, it's the same concept I'm telling you Praise in public Punish in Private I think everyone knows about that Here's some other lessons he learned When he was occupying force in Japan Be confident but not arrogant

Hmm Self confidence and humility Are the keys to getting any job done Little dichotomy And those two obviously There's always a way either you find a way or you make one. If you can't think of a way,

don't hesitate to ask for help. Take counsel from those who have information and experience. It's so funny how some people won't ask for help. Supervised, check up on things, but don't micromanage. Make sure your subordinates understand their priorities of work. I mean, these, I just realized I was almost reading those as if like, hey, we already know these things. It's like these are things that we know.

Not that they're not important. And obviously Hal Moore knew him before I did. He learned him in the occupation of Japan. Here he talks about someone that he worked for. The officer under whom I served for the longest period in Japan was Major Mansfield. He was always cool, never raised his voice, very perceptive, took no wood nickels, and was a natural leader. He told me what he wanted to be done and let me run with the ball. He trusted me and I went an extra two to three miles to make sure I would never let him down

Never do a shabby job or never lose his trust That right there is this like you could just give that to people and say hey think about this man If you're gonna be in a leadership position think about this Always cool never raise your voice give people what you want to do and let them run with the ball Like that's just basic stuff but it's so important What's a wooden nickel? Wood nickel is it's it means it means you just take you take things that aren't worth anything. Oh yeah.

Fake. A couple more lessons learned. Tell your subordinate leaders, your standards at the outset and what you expect. That's a pretty good one. If you let people get away with stuff for a while, then when you jerk the chain back, it hurts them more. Push authority down to make decisions, but keep responsibility for the results. Don't blame subordinates for bad results.

Blame yourself for not training them properly or giving poor instructions, stream ownership. Boom. That's another parenting one. for sure always well I see it and then I feel like I've done a good job in being conscious of this you know okay so if I say okay so one year old four year old

four and a half whatever and I say hey you know watch him I'm gonna go grab this thing from my car whatever watch him don't let him climb up on that bike and fall down he's one so I run in the you know I come back of course climb on the bike

yeah falls down Yeah. Hey, I thought I told you not to let you tell the four-year-old. I know, that's what makes the example even more powerful because, look, hey, look, her failure is my failure. That emphasizes my failure even more. So four-year-old, that's my failure. But it's the same thing for a big time.

Check. Be dead honest with those above you and below you. Totally candid, but not harsh, straight talk. Respect your people. taking care of your people is not just about the obvious things pay working conditions concern for their welfare and that of their families but seeing that they are properly trained and have the personal discipline and desire to get the job done and get it done well carry a notebook or three by five cards and take notes when being given instructions or when your boss is explaining his philosophy or guidance on a matter i also found that when running or doing other physical exercises ideas and useful thoughts would pop into my head possibly related in some medical way blood movement goes to the brain. So I took scrolling notes when running.

That's not a bad. I've done that before. I'll be like working out and in my workout book I'll have a little like four words of something I thought of. Or like, yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

I don't know if it's that interesting, but it's worth noting. Yeah, I mean, if that's true, you know, like where like the- Carrying a notebook around now, nowadays put people what notes in your phone. Do you put notes in your phone? Yes.

I put notes in my phone too. Do you take voice memo sometimes? No. I saw someone doing it. I thought it was so cool, but the habit didn't stick. It's not bad. I usually type in the notes. Yeah.

But sometimes if I'm driving voice note. Yeah. Dang. Okay. Now he's a company commander in Korea. So Korean War. So, you know, he, there's again, we're jumping through this book. But this is, I thought this was awesome.

He takes over as a company commander. One of my first acts as, commanding officer was to move six men out of the worst boar's nest in the place these mortarmen had been billeted in a derelict bunker which was infested with rodents i moved them into the officer's bunks and i moved down there moved us down there into the first mortarman's old bunker i had some korean support troops clean at first though and it was very adequate from my gunnery officer recon officer warn officer and myself a few mice and bugs but not bad one corner of my end was dug into an old Korean grave, which was immediately covered, but there is still a lingering odor.

I keep my feet down at that end and liberal use of an aerosol bomb and opening the door, and it's not bad sleeping at all. These graves are hard to avoid as they are scattered, helter-skelter, all over these hills where our positions are. So what I thought was awesome about that, he takes over his company command. The enlisted guys are living in this crappy, stinky, rodent-filled barracks. He kicks them out, moves them into the officer's barracks, and moves the officer's. into the crappy barracks that's what I'm talking about that is legit some more

points from Korea good leaders don't wait for official permission to try out a new idea in any organization if you go looking for permission you will inevitably find the one person who thinks it's his job to say no it's easier to get forgiveness than permission put the welfare of your own troops above your own they eat before you eat they sleep before you sleep Simple acts of courtesy and graciousness have a profound impact on subordinates, morale, self-perception, and performance. So every leader is put through an informal process in the first few weeks wherein his people judge him and decide whether or not he's worthy of their trust. He must earn their trust.

How a leader must prove himself by his actions, appearance, demeanor, attitude, and decisions. I like that. You're definitely getting looked at. When you take over something for the first time, you're getting looked at hard. The leader must be visible on the battlefield. He must be in the battle, battalion commander on down, brigade and division commander on occasion. He must exhibit his determination to prevail no matter what the odds or how desperate the situation. He must have and display the will to win by his actions, words, tone of voice on the radio and face-to-face, his appearance, his demeanor, his countenance, and a look in his eyes.

He must remain calm and cool, no fear. He must ignore the dust, the noise, the smoke, the explosions, the screams, the scornions, the screams of the wounded, the yells, or the dead lying around him. That is all normal. He must never give off any hint or evidence that he is uncertain about a positive outcome, even in the most desperate situations. So again, you know, what you brought up earlier of this, hey, we're not going to show any fear. We're not going to show any possibility of ever losing.

You know, I don't think he's talking about that. I think he's talking about even though you might be thinking that. And even though you might give the indication, hey, look, if we don't get our act together, we could lose this thing. But we're not going to. Some more Korea examples. I'd been taught for years that leaders must set the example

and I tried to do so. But in battle is absolutely mandatory and especially so during the Korean War at the company level. I learned that I could keep calm and functional in the bedlam, stress, noise, blood and killings of a fierce battle. I had no choice but to remain calm.

Stay in shape. when we were not in battle or another operation, I took a run in the late afternoon for an hour or so. The first reports in the battlefield are usually exaggerated for good or bad and are not entirely accurate. This is normal since they are sent back by leaders in a moving battle and are fragmentary. First reports are always wrong.

That's what we used to say. That's usually pretty true. Here's a good one. Be ready so you don't have to get ready. A good leader will pre-position as many assets some people as he can before an event or as a contingency in case of disaster. Thus, when the alert and or emergency inevitably comes, you'll be better prepared to respond to it. Be ready so you don't have to get ready.

He talked about when things are quiet. And here he's talking about when things are quiet on the line and nothing's going wrong, tighten up security. Be sure the listening outposts are alert, especially at night in particular if it's raining or snowing. That's the most appropriate time for the enemy to close in. It's interesting how he's talked about that tool. He talks about it a bunch, but for him, if there's nothing going on, do something, right? If you've got a day off, do something to make your position better. If you're not getting attack, good, improve your position.

Every moment he's thinking about that. When you draw up a plan of attack or defense, you must have information on the weather, terrain, and enemy capabilities, but you cannot coordinate your plan with the enemy. therefore you have to think through all the what ifs if the enemy does this what happens if the enemy does that what happens it's time well spent I always say the enemy gets a vote and that's what he's saying yeah you can court you can make your plans but your plans aren't coordinated with what the enemy's going to do they're going to the enemy's going to do what the enemy's

going to do soldiers in battle fight kill and die and die primarily for each other don't complain to your boss he wants solutions not just problems right Yeah. And that's not just to your boss. That's up and down the chain of command. Yeah. On saving private Ryan when he said, you never gripe down the chain of command.

Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I think that was a different point he was making. Well, it's, well, I just said up or down the chain of command.

He's saying don't gripe up. No, he's saying don't gripe down. He's going up. He's saying, yeah, well, he's saying don't gripe up and you're saying,

don't gripe down, and I'm saying don't gripe. Yeah, yeah. Well, he's saying, don't complain to your boss. Yeah. Like that's a right. Yeah, well, yeah. The way I took it on saving private Ryan anyway was gripe meaning like I have a complaint about this that I need the answer to kind of thing. It's more of a comprehensive thing. Dude, you cannot see you cannot deline the difference between gripe and complaint. They're the same thing. Well, I feel like complaining because only because he said a little solution. A complaint. A complaint is might be a little bit more formal than a gripe. A gripe is like, man, I can't believe we're not get we're getting the same food again. That's a gripe. Yeah. But it's also a complaint. Yeah, I think you're right about that.

Now, a complaint could also be, we are low on ammunition. That's being beyond a complaint, right? That's like a critical situation. So gripe is less. Gripe is a little bit less, but they're the same freaking thing. Yeah. You shouldn't do either one of them up or down the chain of career. Right.

Unless you bring solutions with you. Okay. So that is what I think was kind of like a given, what I felt anyway in keeping right, meaning like, okay, if you have an official complaint, like, okay, we need to change this. And then again, you might be right because he doesn't want you to do it down because it makes you look like a weak leader kind of thing, I'm assuming. With this, he's saying, hey, don't just come with all your complaints and no solutions to your, to your superiors, because the superiors want answers.

They want solutions. Yeah, yeah. But when you gripe down the chain of command, there's two things. Number one, if you just complain down the chain of command, then the guys are going to take that and run with it. But that doesn't mean you don't explain things down the chain of command. That doesn't mean you don't say, hey, guys, we're low on am you. Here's what's going on our vessel

Transport got hit and sunk by a torpedo they didn't deliver the ammo we're gonna have then people go Yeah, it's less of come as opposed to just like can't believe we don't have enough ammo. Yes, yes We don't have enough ammo this is an issue Maybe that's kind of what he meant that only goes up. Yeah, I'm trying to think but both of them you have to tell your guys that you don't have enough ammunition You have to say hey guys we don't have enough ammunition. Here's what's going on I put in for more the the transport got some And and this is the situation where we need to use our ammo as sparingly as possible. That's not a complaint. No.

That's an explanation of what's going on. And a commander's intent about how much ammunition we're going to use and conserving ammunition. Yeah. Check. Back to the book. We're getting into Vietnam. Shortly after 9 a.m. on June 29th, 1964, I was handed the colors of the 2nd Battalion 23rd infantry. Accepting the colors means the commander is now.

responsible for all his command does or fails to do yeah once you're in charge you're responsible for everything now if you remember in we were soldiers once in young there was the lost platoon which was led by Henry T. Herrick Lieutenant Henry T. Herrick and this guy was known to be aggressive aggressive to the point of being reckless Right? Overly aggressive. And his Sergeant Major, and this is from the book here, Sergeant Major Plumley told him, Colonel, if you put Lieutenant Herrick in there, he will get all of them killed.

His senior enlisted man, his Sergeant Major told him, hey, don't put this guy in charge. He put him in charge anyways. And he regretted that. And he said that that was one of his leadership letdowns, that he failed to remove a toxic leader from the ranks and herrick soldiers ultimately were the ones that that paid the price and therefore he says when you identify a toxic subordinate leader remove them if you cannot remove them reassign them to a role where their toxicity can be minimized so and i mean herrick that does and again you have to get the book where your soldiers once in young so you get the whole story because

i didn't cover it in enough detail because it's one thing that's going on in that in that whole scenario and Herrick kind of redeemed himself, getting the guys together to at least defend themselves for days out in the field, being attacked like over and over and over again. But it was his hyper-aggressiveness that got them in that situation in the first place. This is an interesting one.

He's talking about his troops and he says, their duty at their level is just as important as my duty at my level. That's awesome. And I've talked about this before, how I always wanted, like, every guy in my platoon to think that they were the most important person

in the platoon. And that's what he's saying. And it's right. It's not just like I was, like, manipulating. It's like, no, you're the radio man. If we need help, you're the only person that's going to get us help.

Yeah. You're the corpsman. If one of our guys gets wounded, you're the only person that's going to be able to save him. You're the machine gunner. You're the most important job on the platoon. Yeah.

Without you laying down a cover fire, we can't move. Yeah. It's like everyone. everyone's the most important everyone's job is important now he he's actually critical and and i got some feedback with with on we were soldiers once and young you know here here's a guy that led his troops into the situation and a bunch of guys died and how is that in any way heroic and that's valid right i mean a valid point we don't now the counter to that is look you don't know you're going to get

ambush if you get it if you know you're gonna get ambush like that against you know 1,500 soldiers Vietnamese soldiers then you would make this different decision but we don't know that we don't know that we don't have a crystal ball yeah but here's some of Hal Moore's criticism of the way the Vietnam War was fought and again this is similar to Hackworth and Hackworth eventually stood up and said this out loud during the war which is why he got so much criticism from the army and also one of the reasons why I like Hackworth so much is because he did what I was talking about earlier. He was like, no, I don't believe in doing this and we're not going to win this way.

He said that. Here's what Hal Moore says. From 1964 until the American withdrawal in 1973, our objectives kept changing from political stability and preventing an enemy takeover to preserving the independence of South Vietnam and training the Arvin forces. At first, the U.S. pushed the South Vietnamese Army aside and took the war over with a brand of fighting that only American forces and American logistics could support. When we left in 1973, our heritage was just that, a form of war that the South Vietnamese and its armed forces could not sustain. In the late 1970s, the Army Chief of Military History General Douglas Canard wrote a book called The War Managers.

He sent a questionnaire to 175 army generals who had served in Vietnam. His book is the analysis of their replies. Nearly 70% of those generals were uncertain and unclear as to what the U.S. objective was in Vietnam. Damn. That's horrible. That's absolutely horrible. 175 generals and 70% of them didn't know. what the objective was.

Now, if you, that's the generals, you take that down a step to the colonels, to the battalion commanders, to the company commanders, to the platoon commanders, to the squad leaders. You get down to the front lines and you guys have no idea

what they're doing there. How do we expect to accomplish the mission when no one in the chain of command really understands what it is that the objective is, what the mission is. So with that, Colonel Moore says a leader

must have clearly defined objectives. He must ensure that these objectives are clearly understood by his subordinate leaders. Lesson learned. Here's a, speaking of family life, there are at least five activities that must be kept in balanced through proper time management. These five activities are the job, physical fitness, personal time alone, recreation, and social relationships.

Also, if they apply to others, religion and family. If any of these get out of balance, then life gets out of balance. from my own personal experience and observation of others being a workaholic is the most common area of imbalance and again that's what I saw a lot with with the guys I used to work with the workaholics and not only that you know you meet business guys all the time you're not you're not there's so many business guys that are workaholics mm-hmm businessman business women that are out there they're grinding they love it and they don't want to stop and that's again that's that's that's that's It's not it's not the most common But business leaders Why are they in a leadership position? Because they built something. Why did they build something? Because they wanted to win because they wanted to take over Well, that doesn't just stop at a certain point. It keeps going. It keeps growing

You reach one goal and you've set another one a higher one A harder one Yeah That keeps going Be careful that one Balance after Vietnam he went and took over a base where they were running basic training and here's what he said about basic training the The goal was for every man leaving basic combat training to be in the best physical shape of his life and to know it, to stretch his mind and his muscles and to assist him in thereby gaining more pride in himself, more self-confidence, and above all, more self-discipline.

A man who has more self-discipline has more confidence in his ability to do the job. I got asked a while back, and we answered it on the podcast, but a guy said, hey, I took over a unit. They're kind of downtroddened. What do I do to get their pride back up? It's like, yeah, work them hard. Do hard training. That's what you do. Discipline.

Hard training. Give them something to brag about. Give them something to take pride in. He was dealing with Vietnam protesters when he was running that base. And he just said, guys, don't even show your weapon. Don't even, we're going to completely underreact. I'm not going to give them what they want. And that's one of his tenants here.

Don't overreact and never overreact to an overreaction. and I'm going to close this out with a pretty big chunk here, but this is when Hal Moore got back from Vietnam. He wrote a little piece called Lieutenant Leadership in Combat. And here's what he says. This is a compilation of a few of my views on leadership of and by lieutenants, specifically infantry platoon leaders in a combat zone. It will be somewhat mixed in perspective

and is not possible in these few words to get. to cross my full views on leadership. In my judgment, a leader builds over time his own unique brand of empathy or lack of it with his subordinates and creates his own leadership debits and credits with those under his orders. So you've heard me talk about leadership capital. Same thing. He's talking about their leadership debits and credits. He does this through personal contact and shared experience based on the interplay between leader and lead,

working with mixed perspectives shaped by the dynamics of real time and real life. Leadership is a highly personal individual matter. Each leader must establish his own approach based on an internal compass using a method geared to his personality, his capabilities, but always oriented toward accomplishing the mission while knowing and taking care of his men. Now, while he says that, you've got to come up with your own method of leadership. They're the fundamental principles that he talks about that we talk about all the time that we wrote about those don't change you got to find your methodology of presenting them and carrying yourself But the fundamental principles are fundamental as officers we are given groups of men to lead Other officers and COs and enlisted soldiers each has a different background different problems a different outlook and different duties

but no matter what their background or their previous experience, no matter how much love, care, and effort may have been spent over the years by their parents and raising them when they are turned over to us are now ours to care for. At that instant, the parents, teachers, or system that brought them to that point will be in the past. Their lives and future are largely in our hands. This is a terrible responsibility for a fire team leader to have, not to speak of a battalion,

a division, or a corps commander. You got all these different people coming in and you're responsible for them now. And I'll tell you, I've had this conversation with business leaders too. Business leaders are the same way because when you're paying someone's paycheck, they're feeding their family, they're paying their mortgage, they're saving for their kids to go to school, they're paying their car payment. That's their life. and if you as a leader are not helping them to achieve,

you're letting them down. Now, is it the exact same thing as having their actual life or death in their hand? No, it's not the same thing. But the pressure is there. Among other attributes, I feel soldiers of any rank must have confidence in four directions. The first is to have self-confidence. Developing it leverages many resources.

The primary source is expert knowledge of his assistant. assign duties and readiness at any time to take on the next higher job. So you don't want your people just trained to do their job. You want them to be able to step up and do the next job above them in the chain of command. In addition to creating confidence through individual expertise, his superiors facilitate its development through trust and how they treat them. This is imperative. Every person's dignity must always be respected.

I feel that if anyone under me fails, the fault is at least half mine. a man should never be caused to think poorly of himself and this requires a subtle and sensitive touch by the leader especially when taking disciplinary action so the first thing he wants to have is self-confidence right and you develop it by how you treat him second but not in priority order in not in priority order is the necessity for each to have complete confidence in his personal weapon as well as any other weapon he might have to handle to include using radios and the no knowing procedures and knowing the procedures for requesting and controlling mortar and artillery fires. Developing this takes leader-controlled, leader-supervised training. So you want to be good at your job. You want to be expert in your job. The more expert you are in your job, the more confidence you're going to have.

The third confidence in the unit and the men who are fighting. The third is confidence in the unit and the men who are fighting with him. At whatever level, the leader must strive to develop an intense esprit of core, but never by running down other units. An example of what not to do is to permit internal subunits to be so disloyal to the organization as a whole as to criticize snipe or run down sister units, be it a squad, platoon, or company on up. It is self-defeating and tears the unit as a whole, tears down the unit as a whole.

So you want them to have esprit of core, but you don't want them to get it by cutting down other units that are within your team. Fourth and so vital a man must have confidence and trust in his leaders. He must know and utterly believe his leaders are competent professionals who know what they are doing

and are not careless or casual in their outlook toward their responsibilities. For a subordinate to be confident in his leader, the subordinate must know the leader is aware of and appreciates what the subordinate must face and the life he must lead in performing his job. The leader must make every effort to get inside the heads of his men and see their problems and the world from their viewpoint. You've got to get the perspective of your people.

You've got to understand what they're going through. You know, he talked about and we were soldiers once in young, that in the civil war, the officers, it was like bad if you can ride your horse all the time. Because you didn't understand the guys that were marching what they're going through. And in Vietnam, some guys were riding the helicopter all this. Some commanders would stay over the battlefield at 2,000 feet out of a small arms range. We're safe up here. Nothing can happen.

But you forget what those guys are going through down there on the ground. Yeah, that jams in jiu-jitsu, the instructor jams them up sometimes. You know, when you're trying to teach someone something. And I said this before. They call it the curse of knowledge where you don't, you're so advanced, you forgot what the white belt is going through in his learning. So you start teaching stuff and, you know,

you forget that they need to know this stuff first before they can pick up this other stuff, you know. You need perspective. Yeah. You need their perspective. Yeah. Back to the book. This takes some doing and while the leader cannot be intrusive into personal affairs,

he must help solve personal problems if he can, especially if the problems penalize individual or unit performance. For example, in garrison and to some extent even in the combat area, most disciplinary problems stem from women, alcohol, firearms control, money, and vehicles. This is, this is from my old job. This is 100% true. Women, alcohol, firearms control, not so much money and vehicles for sure. Guys crashing cars, guys, DUIs, guys, crashing motorcycles, guys, getting in trouble.

with girls drinking is encompassed in all those. Knowing this, a leader can perform a lot of preventative maintenance. As an isolated but not sole example, pay problems often arise for separated families living on limited income. Many of these can be eliminated in advance by real leadership. In summary, my views are take care of the troops, develop four-way confidence and be professional. This ensures we can carry out our first duty accomplishment of the mission. Finally, concerning professionalism, I believe even now, the clock is bringing us closer to some few seconds, minutes, or hours in the future when the professionalism we will have

or will not have will make a life or death difference for the men. placed under our leadership and whose families can only trust, hope, and pray that we know our business. And again, there's more in that book, but I think we'll close it out there. Because what a thing to keep in your mind. Just keep that in your mind that even now the clock is bringing us closer closer to a moment when your leadership will be tested and it is your professionalism and that means your ability your mental and physical strength your knowledge your judgment it will all be tested at some point have we done enough to prepare for that moment have we trained hard enough have we studied hard enough

Have we read enough? Have we learned enough? We prepared for what is coming. I've got for tonight. So Echo, speaking of being prepared. Sure. Maybe you can give us some advice on getting a little more prepared.

Sure. Be glad to. Prepared for, I'll start with preparation for Jiu Jiu Jitsu, a few Jiu Jitsu references. Jiu Jitsu's life. Grapling is life Jiu Jitsu is life by the way There's a lot of similarities

I would say You shouldn't say Jiu Jitsu is life Well if you say that then that's cool It's a metaphor no no no no no But for some people Jiu Jitsu is life Yes They're just training good good for them

Yeah Maybe It shouldn't be your whole life You've done some other things to life Yeah I didn't mean it that way I meant it like Jiu Jitsu reflects life It's like a metaphor for life

Yes Affirmative So in the event of you being in jiu jit-suit, like many people are and more people are becoming. A lot of people ask me what ghee to get. I know. Yep, I'm going into it. You get an origin ghee.

That's it. How many do you have? Four. Four. Okay, I have three. Okay. Every single one of them is outstanding. Yeah.

Designed. Outstanding. Yeah. Designed here, though. here in America in America and the by jiu jitsu players by the way the jihitsu players so I was I watched one of their

one of Pete's videos and it was if you go to their YouTube channels you know the how you have the main video it's watching that and it made sense you know you see everyone that's part of the the factory they kind of give their input in the video a little bit and it made sense so like you know like there's a lot of geese

that are made, you know, kind of thing. But if it's made by Jiu-Jitsu people, they're going to know, like when you put on a key jacket, they're going to know the difference between a ghee that's, that whoever designed it had this in mind, where when you put your hands up, what's that Gigi going to do, you know? If you're just, oh, I'm just, I'm going to make a Gigi, and they don't necessarily do J-J-Sah, they might not pay attention to that kind of stuff. Yeah. Or, you know, when you do J-J-J-T, let's face it, like if you do karate, you're

body goes through a certain thing, right, while you're doing karate in whatever capacity. If you do jiu-jitsu, your body is going to go through a certain thing. And more appropriately, your ghee is going to go through a certain experience. Oh, so you're saying you can't use a karate ghee for that jiu-jitsu. Yeah, that's one of the things I'm saying. So let's say the way you put on and keep on a karate ghee or a jiu-jitsu is going to be, going to play a role in when you do jiu-jitsu. So, like, look, you know, when you tie your pants.

or something like this. How your pants are tied matters when you do Jiu-Jitsu. True. Just like how your belt is tied. It matters. Anyway, Pete and these, an origin,

they kept that in mind when they designed it. And it shows too, by the way. So anyway, these are some of the reasons that you should 100% get an origin gee if you're still wondering

what he to get. More important than that. If you don't do Jiu-Jitsu, And that's why you don't need a ghee start jiu-jitsu. Yeah, then you'll need a g-then you'll need a g- And then you more important you start jiu-jitsu. Yeah, and that's what we're talking about the parallels between jihitsu and life And you'll you'll learn to defend yourself real situations Mm-hmm recalibrate your instincts

Recalibrate your instincts which are completely wrong by the way they're wrong Yes if you right now if you're listening and you're thinking you know my instincts aren't that bad No, I'm telling you they're wrong. Yeah, if you don't think they're wrong go to a jihilip Jiu Academy. Yeah. And tell them you got good instincts, let's roll. Yeah. Here's one.

In life, do you want to turn your back to your problems in life? No, you do not. In Jiu Jitsu, do you want to turn your back to your opponent? No, you do not. Okay. But your instinct might tell you in a fight and sometimes in life, you do it because that's what we do sometimes. See, that's why Hal Moore, we're sorry.

We're not listening to our instincts all the time. Not all the time. Not all the time. But if your instincts are predicated, we don't follow them. Yeah. You can listen to it and that's a caution. Right. But no, no, no.

He's saying if they're predicated on your education experience, learning, reading, right? So essentially, you are going to listen to your recalibrated instincts after you train in Jiu-Jitsu with your origin geese because that's the one you're going to get because that's the best one straight up. That might sound like an opinion, but it's a straight-up fact. You get these geese at origin-main.com. They have some other stuff on there. Some apparel rash guard. it's compression gear. That being said,

there's also other stuff, supplemental stuff, supplements, okay, so krill oil, you know, we talk about supplements that I think, Jocko thinks, I'm speaking for you right now, what are good supplements? Crill oil. Joint warfare.

Joint warfare. These are things to maintain your structure, bodily structure. Is that too scientific sounding? No, I don't think you have the capability of sending two scientific Dang, bro, I think you might be right. See, that was one of those digs I was talking about earlier.

I don't mean it in a bad way, but it kind of come across like I'm a jerk. Yeah, what do you say? I'm stupid. You're saying I'm stupid. You're saying I'm stupid. You're saying I'm stupid. I'm stupid. Should I just not talk anymore?

Some people don't support that. Don't answer that. Anyway, supplements. Yes, there's echo lovers and there's echo haters. Okay. They're both, there's two camps. Yeah. The echo lovers is a bigger camp.

hopefully the echo haters is a louder camp sure yeah and it makes sense you know the gripes I think they come up the chain or down the chain both yeah it makes sense hate to me if you're honest you're honest there it is nonetheless back to supplements jaco has supplements they're good supplements supplements supplements jocco actually takes see that's a big deal do what I say not what I do in this You got some discipline in you right now. You're doing all kinds of bringing stuff back, closing the loop from the podcast. You know, I'm just trying to learn these things, you know, apply them to my life and in this particular situation. Life is telling the people about joint warfare and super krill oil.

Anyway, it's omega-3s in the krill oil. Obviously, if you don't know about krill oil, I think that krill oil ended up to be one of those sleeper, what do you call them? super supplements you know something where you like it's been going on the whole time and you didn't know about it you didn't know about it yeah okay then that's me nonetheless pro quo has it takes it I take it and I will say 100% effectiveness my opinion origin main scientific opinion scientific yeah big time double blind triple blind um origin main dot com that's where you get it also for a pre mission supplement supplement jaco supplement it's called disciplines like a pre-workout cognitive enhancer is that

accurate well yeah it's pre-life life like you have mission because yeah because what's your mission because I just don't need cognitive enhancement when I when I'm going to get in the game sure I also need to have physical yeah force multiplication yeah so that's why we made it yeah because I wanted because because when I do stuff it's physical and mental yeah it's physical and mental you need to be both those need to be tuned up yeah supplemented um enhanced if you will at the very least it should be squared away yeah well and the good thing you can feel it yeah see and that works real good for jiu jitsu too because jiu jizza is one of those things let's face it if I'm doing a bench press you know people have asked me all the time like could you

take a pre-workout in the morning because I get up early in the morning and I work out. I do not take a pre-workout in the morning before I go and work out in the morning. No, that's not when I take the discipline. No, I don't drink draw. I go in there. I drink water. I brush my teeth drink water. Then I go and do my morning workout. So I do not take a pre-workout or a newtropic prior to working out in the morning. However, for the shih Tzu, there is a, I would say I'm about 60 or 70% of the time I'm on the discipline when I go in there.

Yeah. Because you can feel it. Like you can feel better. Like why not have good training? Yeah. And that seems like Jiu-Jitsu is one of those things, like life, is one of those things where

this kind of supplement makes 100% sense because it is physical and mental and not just, oh, you know, like everything's mental. I get it. Your brain dries. I get it.

It's true. Even if you're doing, you know, bench breath. or whatever. It's still mental for sure. But jiu-jitsu is like your mind has to be going at the same pace. You know, you're using your mind just as much, if not more, during jiu-tih-too. And you're using your body, by the way.

I think if you were going to do, look, okay, so in the mornings, I don't need it. Yeah. Bro, I don't need it. Like, I don't. In the morning, I'm ready. Like, I wake up and I'm, like, ready to rock and roll. I don't, I'm going to get in there. I'm going to get it.

Get it. Yeah. I will say this during over the Christmas time, some of my workhouse in the morning because I had other responsibilities during that time period because you got early morning tactical things that you're doing around Christmas, et cetera. And because you've got kids and whatnot.

And so some of my workouts were, and then when I was working on the afternoon, I was getting on the discipline of the afternoon because it's not the morning time anymore. And I get a little bit of... So you're like one of those guys who like, you know how certain people they have their, They're like, what do you call it?

Like time of day where their performance kind of peaks their potential. I don't think. I think my performance actually peaks in the afternoon like most people. I think that's the most common time. But in the morning when I get up, I'm ready to rock and roll. This is what I'm saying. I don't, I just want to get in there and get it done. Like I'm, I feel like I missed out a bunch of stuff when I was sleeping.

Oh, for real? Yeah. Like, what just happens? I kind of feel the opposite. I feel like when I'm working, I'm like, dang, I could be sleeping. There you go. You need discipline for me. No, man. Nonetheless, it's called disson.

A pre-mission. We'll call it a pre-mission. Yes. Supplement. Yes. It's good. It's a good. Good name for it. OriginMane.com.

That's where you get it. Also, for kickass fitness gear on it. Dot com slash jocco. I get the kettlebells. I have the kettlebells. My collection is growing. I'm going for all of them. That's my goal.

Clear and concise goal. Anyway, if you want a, if you want to make your workout routine more interesting there's a lot of cool stuff on there battle ropes maces and you can look up all the workouts you want to do i think that's a big deal for people unlike you by the way who don't mind doing the routine routine routine you want to mix it up that's what i think anyway on it dot com slash jocco that's where you can't get them awesome stuff also when you get the book we were soldiers once in young and also How more on leadership

Winning When Outgunned and Outmaned That's what it's called When you're getting these books Don't worry I have the list of books Including this one By episode on the website

Jockopodcast.com While you're doing that Make a note to yourself That you need to put the link To the new extreme ownership Because somebody tweeted me That you have the old Extreme Ownership linked in there

Which is not good For you Are you guys selling the old one? I don't think you can get it anymore Okay If you can get it Well, no, I don't think you can get it anymore. Just the new one.

I think it's sold out. All right, there you go. Boom. Yet another book on the list. And that list is at, like I said, Jocopodcast.com. Go to the top on the menu there. Click on books. Boom, all the books, including the ones we, the one we went over today.

Extreme ownership. I'm going to call it the new one. What do you call? What's the official? The new one. The new one. The new one. Yeah.

No, no. The re-release. The re-release. Yeah. The black one. The black one. The black cover. Yeah.

He's got the black cover. Yeah, there it is. Anyway, either way. Yeah. The new one has excerpts from the podcast. When we talk about leadership on the podcast, the really prominent questions, put some of those in there.

They're included in there. And there's also a new forward. And there's new pictures in there. Color pictures. Dang. I held the line, trying to hold the line. Yeah, it didn't work out. Color pictures.

Color pictures are cool, man. For them, it's a step up. For me, it's a step down. I don't mind the colored pictures. I think they're cool. But yeah, there it is. Nonetheless, you can get it all on jococopodcast.com in the book section. Click on there.

It's a good way to support. Boom, takes it to Amazon, do some shopping on there with these books here. Or whatever else. Hey, carry on. That's how. Also, subscribe to the podcast, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, all these podcasting providing platforms. If you haven't already, leave a review.

If you're in the mood, if you're in the mood, if you're compelled to leave review. Also, YouTube, we have a YouTube channel. I haven't read any podcast reviews on the podcast in a long time. So maybe there's some really good ones. Yeah. I'll break them out. Yeah. There's really funny ones.

Yeah. That's like, um, like good doesn't mean like, hey, this is the best podcast ever. Good means you're just, yeah, yeah, yeah. You do something that's funny and creative and still good. Yes, of course. Well, because in your way of saying good, it can still be a negative review as long as it's a good one. Yeah, sure. I'm saying?

Yeah. I mean, I don't recommend, obviously. But as far as your criteria for the word good in this specific case, good good. Good review. Good review. Entertaining, I should say. Entertaining. There is.

There is. Same with on Amazon. Yes. There's some entertaining reviews. I've read some of those. I'll read some more of those. Because they're good. People put time and effort into those.

Yeah. Yeah, they do for sure. And their sense of humor. Yeah. I support that too, by the way. Also, like I said, YouTube, it's great. We have a YouTube channel.

Jocco podcast, it's what it's called YouTube channel. Boom. Got some excerpts on there. If you'd want to necessarily watch the whole two, three hour podcast video format, some excerpts on there. You take specific lessons. Boom, all on the YouTube channel.

Most of them. All of them? Most of them. Nonetheless. That's a tiny fraction of them actually. Yeah. You know, some of them will say.

Also, there are deleted scenes. Every once in a while, I'll put some deleted scenes. If you care or are interested in what Jocko digs at me about. While we're not, actually technically we're recording,

but it's not part of the podcast. Pre-recording. Pre-recording. Yeah. If you're interested in that kind of stuff. It's on the, YouTube. Every once in a while I'll post them. Also, Jocko is the store. It's called Jocko store. Obviously, this is where you can get.

If you want, the shirts, shirts, hoodies, maybe some hats on there. Rash guards. Strange, a lot of people have been hitting me up for rash guards, and I've been seeing them out in the wild way more recently. Yeah. People are getting after a big time. Warrior Kid Rashguards are on there for the youth, youth sizes. For the warrior kids. Yeah, exactly right. Boom, they're up.

Up. Shipping going out already. Also, we have a new one on there. Just if you want any of this stuff, this is where you can get, jocco story.com. Some good stuff, girls stuff on the women's stuff on there. Also, psychological warfare. You can know what that is.

I know. I've explained it before. But in the event of you not hearing it yet, this is what it is. It's an album with tracks. Not songs. They're jocco tracks. So basically what these tracks are for.

are in your in your I thought you're gonna keep it concise for a moment now now well here's a thing I think is important you know I let's see if you can do it in 10 seconds no I can do it in Texas 10 seconds I'm not gonna do our people the disservice of making it 10 seconds you know I'll be quiet this this is this product was made for me is my product essentially true statement when it comes down to it so when you come okay here's what it is when you come across your moments of weakness in life sounded like you right there a little bit

weakness in life like you know you're waking up early right you want to keep it consistent all year new year new me waking up early every single day

maybe not on Sundays or maybe Sundays too I don't know whatever either way when you wake up sometimes you're not going to feel like it sometimes you're going to want to hit the snoo boom

put in one of these tracks it's jocco on there telling you pragmatically giving you practical advice on why you shouldn't hit the snooze. Same thing with skipping workouts. Same thing with cheating on the diet. Do you call it cheating on the diet?

I don't know what you call it eating donuts. Eating donuts, slipping on the diet. You know, hitting these speed bumps. Weakness speed bumps is what they are. Speed bumps. I had some chocolate chip. I had some chocolate cake with mint chocolate chip ice cream on the holidays. And it was good.

many times more than once no I you know what I had twice in the same situation oh like like like boom I'm back again boom like two hits and boom say goodbye it was like chocolate cake with mint chocolate chip ice cream which is not normal so that's why it kind of got me I wasn't listening to psychological horse right at the time see that's a perfect example where actually that's not a perfect example because I'm sure you were kind of like hey freedom yeah that was the freedom The freedom part of discipline equals freedom. Yes, you're exercising the freedom part. This is for times where like you're at work.

I'm actually fasting right now, other than having some joccoa-t and some discipline. Yeah. I'm fasting. Yeah. People, some people are like, you're no fasting. Whatever. I think I go right. I go from eating 27,000 calories a day to eating four calories a day.

Still not fasting. I think fasting is zero. I don't know. I'm not a fasting expert. Either way. what this is about what uh psychological warfare what what you were done who it's for none no no you were not done bro there's a whole explanation not even done we're still unclear about what it is no no yeah your album tracks you said no you said no you said you use the example

of you eating chocolate cake with mit chocolate with ice cream as one of the scenarios to use the chocolate cake had like a hard shell of chocolate on it oh yeah it's legit yeah yeah That is, well, the reason I asked how many times. And then the Chalking's kind of melted a little bit. Yeah, that's how. Yeah, that's good. Or you do it with like a brownie. So it melts naturally onto, it's kind of the same.

There's a restaurant in San Diego, OB, California. It's called Raglan. And they have something they're called the illegal. Yeah. Because it's so good that it should be illegal. Right. And it is, it's a, it's no big deal, right? This is what makes it so good is it's just the,

a little cast iron pan. Just a little cast iron pan. And they cook a chocolate cookie in there. And then they put vanilla ice cream on it. Yeah. That thing is... Should be illegal. Yeah.

Yeah. That might be, you know what? My psychological warfare might not work against the legal at Ragman. Dang. So watch out for that one. That's saying a lot because as of rain, I think it's 100% success rate. Actually, 101%.

I heard I heard out in the field reports but you were saying you were saying what that that's the example when to use it it's not oh the example is when you're on the path but you feel like the moment of weakness oh okay I don't think the chocolate chip that was a conscious decision of yeah you know it's the holidays I'm gonna do this you know kind of thing I'm gonna exercise my freedom because of all my discipline all that it's like when you're at work it's not lunchtime yet it's almost lunchtime but not quite yet boom they got the donuts right Because there's some big office meeting They want to cater it, you know, whatever. It's that kind of situation. That's what's good. That's what's good. Fasting, recalibrate that little hunger vibe. Unless you hit a speed bump of weakness during the fast.

Yeah. You can, by the way. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like peanut butter. Like, you ever been fasting? The biggest thing, I think the biggest thing somebody was asking me about it the other day. The reason, he's like, what's the hardest part?

Like the first eight hours, the first 12 hours, the first 21 hours, the first 24 hours, And I was like the hardest part of a fast is the parts where you're not doing something. Yeah, yeah. Like I haven't thought about eating one time during while we've been recording this podcast. I haven't thought about eating one time. Yeah. When we get done and we square ourselves away and you leave.

Yeah. I'm gonna be like, oh, cool. What am I gonna do now? You know? Yeah, yeah. But then if I was to go from here and like drive to go do something, I wouldn't think about it. Are you talking to the phone? Yeah, you got something going on.

What, what, um, how long is this? I don't know. I think I'm actually going to eat this afternoon or this evening. Oh, so you're like, hey, I'm just going to fast. What? Do you have a minimum amount? No, I'll do like 24 hours. Usually I do 24 hours once a month and then I'll do 72 hours once a quarter.

Dang. Yeah. I'll have a few handfuls of mixed nuts. Like throughout the day I'll grab a handful of mixed nuts. I'll have some tea, some joccal white tea, by the way. This is the first one where I've done discipline, which I think is really good. because it's making me feel great. So, and like there's no calories in it,

or there's one calorie or something really small in there. Incidental calorie. Yeah. But, yeah, and recalibrate your hunger sensitivities. And, man, I feel good when I do it. Have you done it? You do 24-hour fast. You feel good, right?

You feel good or no. Here's a thing. Wait, wait, 24 hours. Yeah, I've done 24. Yeah, plenty of years. See, I do 24 hours more than once a month, because a lot of times I'll just wake up, I'll be traveling, and I just won't eat.

Yeah. And so I ate the night before I wake up early in the morning. I go, I travel. I get somewhere at night and then I eat dinner. Well, that means I just went 24 hours without eating. Yeah. Yeah. And that's essentially kind of how it happened for me early on.

But after a while you're like, you know the kind of where you're like, dang, I'm totally missed lunch, but I don't want to eat now because I won't be hungry for dinner with the family kind of thing. So I'm like, hey, I'm not going to eat. And I'm like, wait. I just went 24 hours. You know what I've noticed this time? And like I said, it's only been 36 hours right now,

but what I've noticed this time is the actual, I felt good about exercising discipline. Like, I felt good about like, I'm not eating that because, maybe it's because, because I just, I've been thinking to myself, like, yeah, I don't need to eat right now. And that feels good. I've been actually enjoying the discipline of it. Yeah, yeah.

Which is, normally I don't enjoy the discipline of it. Normally, I haven't, not that I don't, I've never even thought about it before. This time I've been like, yes. Yeah, that makes sense. I'll shut you down. Kind of makes it feel strong. I don't talk about seal training a lot,

but when you go through Hell Week, which is like when you stay awake for five days, one of the things that I thought about when I was going through Hell Week was like, oh, it's going to feel so good to sleep when I get done with this that it kind of made me feel good to do it. Like I was like, oh, man, can you imagine

how good it's going to feel when I get done this? I could go to sleep and it's going to feel so good. And right now I'm kind of like the same thing. I'm kind of thinking, oh, it feels so good to not, to not eat right now because in two days I'm going to eat and it's going to feel good. solid yeah it's the same way I feel strangely not strangely but same way I feel when I go on vacation or I'm like if I didn't do a lot a lot of work for the you know the past months or whatever like let's say work

is like kind of cruise we'll say like he didn't like test me you know how like if I shoot all day like at the muster I'm kind of shooting all day from 430 when he talks about shooting everyone he's talking about taking pictures and videos because I'm like where are you shooting no yeah I don't I don't shoot guns for no I don't nonetheless Well, you do a few musters, you make some, you know, in my case, you know, you do work. And then you're like, oh, you're looking forward to that vacation kind of thing. But if it's like, oh, you have a trip plan, but you haven't been working that hard. You're like, I want to like, I want to stock up on a bunch of hard, hard work so I can enjoy that vacation.

You know what I mean? So the vacation seems more appealing. Same idea. Yeah. Feels good. Feels good. Give it a try. Check with your doctors, right?

I guess. What? Soon be free fast. Yeah, sure. But nonetheless, if, back to the speed bump thing, if you hit your mom's the weakness. There's no way you can carry this threat all the way back to psychological warfare. That's why psychological warfare is good because sometimes you hit those moments. All that you've said about it, you never said, hey, you can get it on Apple, iTunes, Amazon music.

You never even gave out the goods. Not yet. I was about to big time. I was about to demonstrate the whole thing, but you already did it. And I thank you for it. Because I didn't do it. All right. Also, on Amazon, you can get Jock White Tea, which, you know, there's been a lot of scientific studies done.

and a lot of people have tried it. We have witnesses. You can absolutely deadlift 8,000 pounds, including Jordan Peterson, by the way. Yeah, he's now deadlifting. He's only deadlifting 7,000 pounds before. And this is coming from him. Yeah.

Now he's deadlifting 8,000 pounds. So that's good. Jocka White Tea. There's some great reviews on there. You might want to read those. We got some books. Weigh the Warrior Kid. Shows Kids The Path.

The next Warrior Kid book is coming out, April 28th. So you can, I'll let you know when you can get that. I don't know when you can right now. But that's when it's coming out. I'm done writing it, just doing editing now.

And also, there's the book, we talked about earlier, extreme ownership, written by me and my brother Laif Babin. And the new additions out, combat leadership for business and life. There's a lot of lessons in there. You can learn from it.

I learned from it. Also, the discipline, equals freedom field manual and when you say that you got to say it like that because sometimes people don't don't want to say field manual why not someone pointed out i don't know they say oh discipline equals freedom yeah discipline equals freedom field manual a guy said today on social media on twitter he hit it up and he said hey it's a field manual it's not a book you don't read from cover to cover it's a field manual so you take it out when you need you need

It you refer to it you go through it maybe go through it one time because it's not long not a long read This ain't about face by Colonel David Hackworth. You can probably read this in Two hours sure three hours sure then once you've read it you go back to it Yeah the field manual teaching you how to get after it mentally and physically The thoughts and actions that you can take to get better opportune time a lot of people got it for Christmas now they're implementing new year's good new year's resolution yeah also a lot of people still asking for the audio version of the discipline equals freedom field manual

it is not on audible it is on iTunes Amazon music Google Play and other MP3 broadcasting platforms that's where you can get it if you need it if you further implementation in your business or your organization or your team beyond the podcast and beyond the books we have echelon front which is our leadership consulting company it's me Laif Babin J.P. Dennell Dave Burke email info at echelonfront.com or check out the website echelonfront.com on top of that we have the muster the muster is a leadership gathering yeah it's in Washington DC May 17th and 18th.

It is in San Francisco, October 17th and 18th. Come and get it. You can register at extreme ownership.com. And if you need to follow up with us, with questions or answers or comments, or just to cruise, that's cool.

We are actually on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocka Willink and thank you for listening to the show and thanks to those of you that are listening that make this show possible those of you in the armed services that are out there on the front lines worldwide keeping peace and protecting our freedoms to police law enforcement firefighters paramedics and other first responders Thanks for holding the line here at home and keeping our families safe. Thank you for your service as well.

And to everyone, remember that even now, the clock is bringing us closer. Closer to that moment. So train hard and work hard and do everything you can to be prepared. so when that time does come, you can step up and get after it. So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.