Jocko Podcast - 131: How To Win With People You Don't Like. How to Not Get Interrupted. The Exception to--No Bad Teams, Only Bad Leaders.

Episode Date: June 27, 2018

0:00:00 - Opening. 0:00:16 - How to never get interrupted. 0:09:11 - Shouldn't your superiors take Extreme Ownership? 0:17:49 - Getting past plateaus in Jiu Jitsu. 0:23:31 - The Exception to "There are no bad teams, only bad leaders." 0:38:11 - How to win with people you don't like. 1:00:51 - How to get back into the swing of things after tragedy. 1:06:48 - Excerpt from Anthony Bourdain's book.  1:14:00 - Support. 1:46:51 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 131 with Echo Charles and me Jock O'Ellink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. It is time for some Q&A. Yes. Should we banter around for a while or should we just get started? Question number one. I've been somewhat of a pushover for the majority of my life.

Since listening to the podcast, I've been trying to assert myself more. One thing I can't seem to shake is constantly being interrupted. How can I rise above and overcome this obstacle? Should I read the hashtag? The hashtag fellow hardcore kids. There you go. And there's a little layer in there because you put rise above in there. So, you know, I thought about this because I would say I don't get interrupted a lot.

But I don't, I think that's kind of the current state of me. and I think there's a reason why I don't get interrupted a lot and it's not because you know people are going to think oh well that's because you're going to bash people in the head with a club that's not the actual answer of why I don't get interrupted yeah so one thing I think is important is you've heard me say this before the less people talk the more people listen so when I'm in a group of people that all want to talk and they all want to talk over each other and they want to cut each other off you get in that group right there I don't talk. I don't talk. I sit there, I listen to them, and I plot.

And I think, and I put together my thoughts correctly so that when I do decide to say something, it's going to have impact. And then I wait for the right moment, right? Because if there's people that are bickering back and forth, I wait for a lull in the fire. And when that lull come,

then I make my point in a very direct manner I might even I might even have to wait until the conversation is like all but over wait till they're done with their little fire fight yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep and then I'm gonna talk and they're done and and what I when I talk you know I'm gonna do it since I've been thinking about it's gonna be articulated in a way that I can present my full Point and so I think that's an effective way to do things I think I think if you let people speak a bunch You let them get it out of their system and then when you decide to talk they don't have anything left to say

So that's a way to stop getting cut off so this is almost like flanking right this is flanking the fact that when people have a bunch to say and they got all these Thoughts in their head and they want to get them all out let them get them out don't try and fight that battle They've got a bunch of things they want to say let them say it also as we know when you listen to someone else talk it you you know what their ideas are yeah you know what they're thinking there's a power and not saying anything because it allows you to think and it allows you to hear what other people think and it allows you to hear other people so in a conversation you get to hear other people's counters to what people are saying and you're not you're not having to expend any ammunition yourself someone else

is doing it you know the the third or fourth or fifth piece person the conversation that's expending ammunition and running their mouth to try and counter some point that someone's made let them do that because by the way then you get to see what the other counter is so I think being assertive doesn't mean talking more I think being assertive means talking less talking at the appropriate times monitoring and understanding the firefight that's happening so that when other people have expended their ammunition you can step in and you can take your shots in a simple clear concise manner that's what I think yeah I think you're right I think

you built up this reputation though that's an a little added element to your specific situation which is where when you talk it like you're not saying fluff you know you're you know when you talk it's like something well that's a good point so if you don't want to get cut off and 70% of the things that you say aren't really that impactful and don't add a lot to the conversation well then there's a good chance that when you open your mouth To start talking someone else doesn't think it's gonna be important so they just jump right on top of you Yeah, but if you say less and to your point if the things that you say generally are well thought out and clear and are gonna have impact Well then we have a good

Chance that you're not going to be cut off because people actually want to hear what you're gonna say Yeah, don't talk just to talk ever. Yeah, see and that's a hard I shouldn't say ever but hardly ever Yeah. Yeah, that's a hard on. Because it, and it's not like people are interrupting you on purpose because you don't have nothing to say. You know, like you're just talking fluff. That's nice. It's not a conscious on purpose thing.

A lot of the time, I think anyway, it doesn't feel like it is. It feels like it's like subconscious, you know. Like how can someone see fit to actually follow through with interrupting somebody if they don't think like, okay, this isn't quite that important. At the very least, at the very least, what I'm about to interrupt. With is more important so some people think that what they're about to say is really important Yeah, here's another thing it's like the little boy that cried wolf right if I yeah if I talk and talk and talk and talk and talk I'm taking away the value of each one of those statements that I make because I'm making so many statements that not all of them can have a high level of value So if who do you who do you pay more attention to the person that makes a hundred statements? Yeah, and we

What are those? Okay, let's say you want to pay attention to the person that makes a hundred statements. How much can you pay attention to those hundred statements? How much do you how much do you gather from those hundred statements? It's a limited amount. Yeah. It's one percent per statement, right? It's one percent. You have to feel. You will do the guy makes a hundred statements? It's one percent per statement. If the person says one thing, how much percent do you pay attention to that? That's right. You said it's a hundred percent. So there you go. Yeah, it makes sense too. Check. Good luck with that fellow hardcore kid. So I guess he'd kind of have, I mean, assuming that, you know, we understand his situation overall. It's kind of like you have to build a reputation of saying only important things. That's a good way place to start. Just be quiet. Yeah, yeah.

And not only like exactly, exactly what you said, that added thing, which you kind of actually may have already said, but when you sit back and just listen to them, it'll cause you to have to say less because what if you wanted to like, oh, I was going to make. This point that's the feeling you get when you want to interrupt someone like oh I want to make this point right now kind of thing You will find out you just let people talk you don't have to make that point They know this stuff already you know all the and you'll find that that's probably a lot of the time You know so you did and by the way if I Step in to make a point that people already know how impactful is that point It's a very limited impact so the more points that you can hear that you know and that everyone knows and that you don't have to say the better off you are so when you do make a point and it's a point that no one really thought of how impactful

is that point yeah the answer is it's very impactful yeah and it comes way more clear that it might be a point than no one thought of after you listen to everyone talk for however long then it's like oh wait this wasn't covered so I can say this I don't have to say all these other things that I was probably going to interrupt with or whatever yeah just be quiet right just be quiet and in social situations for example to me and this is what I kind of started doing or tried to start doing. In social situations, you know how like,

okay, I listen to my wife and her friends talking. It's just a boom, boom, interrupting inter- it's not rude or nothing. It's just because they're just talking. And yeah, that's how they roll. Yes, how they roll.

And to the point where I'm getting, like, little mild micro doses of anxiety because of all the interruptions. Yeah, yeah, it's like a lot. They just talk a lot. That's what it is. Anyway, so I found in social situations, if I feel that,

like if I'm, like, trying to talk or that I'm getting interrupted a lot, lot a lot man in a way they don't really care that much about what you have to say they have more like they care more about what they have to say and it's a social situation so yeah you might as well just be quiet you're adding less value interrupting their valuable stuff you know so just be quiet and you'll find that they'll want to talk to you more too if you be quiet and not interrupt them you might have to take some heavies on the interruption front though because that is kind of annoying if you

attention to it so I think I see what you're doing right now next question I saw your TED talk I like most people have a boss if it wasn't the fault of the guys below you and there are people above you shouldn't they take ownership I.e. your commanding officer and then it in turn his why would ownership only drift halfway up so in an ideal world ownership goes up and down the chain of command Absolutely and that is how problems get solved because people take ownership of those problems throughout the chain of command now Does the world always work like that? No, it doesn't and that's okay. That's fine because as the boss of what you're the boss of you can't make any excuses That's the way it happens and when an organization is taking ownership when you've got a team where everyone is taking ownership on that team there's absolutely

overlap of everyone taking responsibility for the different problems there'll be some overlap well I could have done this to help out oh yeah and I would have done this better and now the we both solve the same problem but it's it's redundant but good because now we got two people addressing the problem so that's not a bad thing so when people are taking ownership up and down the chain of command the problems are getting not just not just solved by one angle but by multiple different angles of everyone that's taking ownership of of that problem When the blue on blue happened, that I talk about extreme ownership, that was in the TED Talk, and I talk about this, like my guys took ownership of what they did wrong as well, the guy that shot the Iraqi soldier, the radioman took ownership of the fact that he didn't pass the word quick enough.

The element leader took ownership of the fact that the Iraqis had gotten away from him. They all owned their little pieces, and of course I owned it as well. And when I took ownership of everything, it wasn't like those guys then said, oh, okay, well, then I'm absolved and I don't have to change anything. No, no, no. Those guys still realized that they made some mistakes and some things that they needed to clean up. So I took ownership of the same thing they were taking ownership and guess what? Again, it was redundant that we were all trying to solve the problems. Now, this is the opposite.

This doesn't happen. When you start blaming people, everyone makes excuses. That's just the way it works. So I think that that's what you have to think about so so like I said ideally when a leader takes ownership so do the people up and down the chain of command They also take ownership of the problems that and if they do that's great and the leader can then monitor what those people up and down the chain of command do to fix the problem And if they fix the problems then that's great. That's the way it works and if they don't fix the problems. I And that's when the leader has to own it up and down the chain of command and still be responsible and take ownership of fixing the problem.

So the other piece of this, I guess, is that that's why extreme ownership works. It works because people that don't take ownership, again, up or down the chain of command, they will be, they will end up being overrun by the people that take ownership. It might not happen immediately, but eventually the people that make excuses will be overrun by the people that take ownership. That's the way it works. And by the way, and again, I talked about this in the TED talk. When that whole thing happened and I took ownership of it, my boss then trusted me more, not less. And that's what happens. You end up increasing your trust. So take ownership If your boss takes ownership too

That's awesome That's awesome That means you've got multiple people trying to solve the problem Which is good for the team You guys get asked this a lot For some reason Leif gets asked this a lot Where It's a lot

Like almost every single time I see Leif in a question answering situation They say what do I do or what happens when my boss isn't taking ownership or what do I do when my whatever isn't taking ownership? The question is ultimately what do I do when the other guy isn't taking ownership, right? And see how you're smiling right now because it's like so obvious, you know, essentially that's what this is. I mean, he's not in the scenario. So it's not, you know, but so and how you guys always say, it's like, well, the thing is extreme ownership isn't about the other guy taking ownership or not taking ownership.

It's about everything you can personally do to take ownership. That's it. It stops right there. Now, just like how you said, if everyone else is taking ownership, which will happen because it's kind of this weird contagious kind of thing. And I don't want to throw it out there like, oh, if I take ownership, then everyone's automatically going to take owners. That doesn't happen because there'll be people that don't.

There's some people that are not looking to take ownership. And again, those are the people that will eventually get overrun. Yes. Because who do you want working for you? The guy that says, oh, this wasn't my fault. It wasn't someone else. Do you want that guy working for you? No.

Because that person's not going to change. going to do anything different they're not going to get that problem solved you want the person working for you that says you know what this is my fault this is what I'm do to fix it here we go yeah you go okay well I'll let you continue to do your job and and I want you to continue to do your job and by the way when a promotion opportunity comes up guess who I'm promoting the guy that makes a bunch of excuses and blames other people or the guy that takes ownership and gets problem solved you know there you go it's a no-brainer and I think as people see that in an organization the majority

of people now this I will say the majority of people they will also take ownership yeah there will be a minority of people that go oh I'm gonna slough off and I'm gonna keep blaming other people and in their minds they think they look good right right in my mind when I go well it was my fault it was echo's fault I think I saved myself for the blame what I really did was look like an excuse making little baby yeah and I don't want to promote me yeah he's like no wasn't my fault oh the podcast didn't come oh was my was my fault was my fault yeah well really okay well let's let's think about that do you want who's

who's responsible I'm shirking their responsibility and laying it on some of person I don't want that person working for me no so that's why it works yeah and I scared of it people are scared that well I if I take the blame I'm gonna look bad don't you look bad when you don't take the blame that's when you look bad yeah pretty much any time in one way or another pretty much any time you look at other people and be like hey what about them you know in this extreme ownership situation like that it's like it goes against the very nature of extreme ownership to to ask like hey what about them why do

Didn't they take responsibility? Just like, I mean, back to the question, it's kind of like just to kind of get a handle on understanding what extreme ownership is. If you start to incorporate, hey, what about them? Hey, what about the higher ups? Why should the ownership stop at you? Well, here's the thing. It doesn't begin, it begins and stops at me. That's 100% of what it is.

Now, other people, I mean, if I can step out of my own situation of extreme and just kind of evaluate, other people when they see you or feel you or see you taking ownership, of stuff I think it tends to be contagious like you know absolutely like I just said the majority of people when you take ownership when I take ownership of something if I go echo you know what this is my fault that the podcast didn't come out or whatever this is my fault that we didn't get this done your tendency isn't to go oh cool it's jaco's fault yeah I agree with you no you go no man I should have done this or I should have done that and now once again we're both trying to solve the problem yeah that's the way it usually ends up yeah real interesting how like um Jamie you know I you know I you know I

email with Jamie, you're Jamie. That's what I'm fine. And she'll, like, I'll make some mistake, you know, on the spelling of something on some video. I don't know something. And she'll, she's real good at taking ownership. She's like, oh, you know, I should have, you know, whatever, whatever. And to the point, sometimes it's like, I see what you're doing.

And it's true. It's like any feeling of like, oh, oh, I should, you know, excuse making or whatever, any feeling of that, gone. When someone is like, no, no, no, it's my fault. I should have caught that. What do you mean? You should have caught that. I should have caught that.

I made the video. kind of thing and I think but man it works so like it's real contagious I think even people who are just naturally defensive you know you know because people are different you know I think over time they tend to be going when when they kind of build this kind of when everyone builds a reputation of not blaming it's like they they they let that natural guard down and they tend look over time you know even if they at first they don't want to check next question what are some ways to get out of a rut in Jiu-jitsu we're just talking about this off air I always get caught in the same spot cross-side and can't move what should I do this is a brutal answer but the truth sure if you have a hard time in a certain position start there every time

start with a person across the side across the side until you get used to it and then on top of starting there and you start working your techniques learn Some new escapes because whatever you're doing right now isn't working so learn some new excuse Escapes now this doesn't mean that you need to learn 47 escapes but if you've got your one go-to escape and it's not working There's actually there's a pretty good chance if you only know one escape from something it's not gonna work Because one escape then the guess what the person has to defend one thing and so they stop it So learn you know three escapes total maybe four escapes total and these are escapes that must be escapes that kind of chain together which most of the time they do so you learn the and you know you can ask you can ask you can ask you can ask your instructor

you can ask some of the other students that that you see get out how did you do that you can even go look at YouTube and Google cross-side escapes and get some good ideas from there and then you're gonna have to take risks while you try your new escapes in you can drill them of course but then eventually you're gonna have to try them live because when you do something in a drill it's not the same as doing it live it's there are adjustments that need to be made and things that you need to figure out and you're not going to be successful the first hundred times or 50 times or 28 times or 420 times that you try something you you there's a lot of

little things you got to figure out and you're gonna get caught in some of those times you're gonna try something new and you're gonna get caught so take risks and try your escapes another point and I've probably talked about this before specifically cross-side don't wait until the person settles in before you start your escape this is true with anything right this is true with life don't wait until your if you see a bad position coming don't wait until the position don't wait until the bad thing actually fully happens to you know start to defend it before it settles in on you get a bad scenario coming down the line start to aggressively

counter that bad thing what whatever it is before It actually gets you and if you can do that then you will be I guarantee that that's that's a lot of the problem right there Because because you know why because getting out of a cross-side is a really hard position to get out of I don't care who you are I have a hard time When Dean gets a cross-side on me it is hard to get out Like I mean it it's really hard to get out Yeah, so what does that mean? Yeah, that's a dominant position and And that's the last thing is like you have to take some risks to get out sometimes you got to break the rules to get out you got to do something you got to offer up a

possible submission to them that you know is coming you know there's some things that you can do like that But escaping before the situation has occurred to you is a very positive thing you could do that with anything like you're in a relationship you see something bad coming down the You see a human being you're in a relationship with and you see that the relationship is going in a bad direction Yeah if you try and either fix it or End it before the thing goes sideways. That's the smart thing to do Yeah, don't wait until everything's a disaster and you got to go and get the restraining order or whatever Right, you're calling the cops because you got someone that's acting irrational don't wait until that

from moment yeah solve the problem as early as possible is the point yeah agree so that's how you get out of that little rut yeah that's what you said um in the beginning of the start in that that bad that's a huge hell and I don't I don't know if all academies do this but I mean Dean has always done this where before you do open matter that live rolling and whatever like right before that there's a part where it's essentially situational training yeah you know you go start side control we're gonna go for two minutes or minute and a half whatever one guy in top one and bottom obviously and if you get out restart exactly right yeah

you know the got top guys trying to submit the bottom guy the bottom guy's trying to escape if the bottom guy escapes you start all over that's it and the other point to that is if you get submitted doesn't count exactly right like it's like yeah of course yeah I'm trying new things I'm taking risks so I expect you I actually expect that you're gonna get submitted yeah because you're trying new things if you in fact if you don't get submitted you fail because you didn't try something new that was really yeah yeah if you just stay there I'll say yeah yeah yeah That's not what that drill's for.

And you can feel it too. You know, like, okay, sure the guy tapped me out, you don't want them to tap you out, but you're there to escape. That's it. You know, so it's not about, like, winning this match or losing this round or whatever. You know, you're, and then you get so familiar with being inside control. So when you do go live row, you're like, oh, I'm familiar because I've done this situation. No factor.

Full speed, by the way. It's a full speed drill. And, yeah, you're just so familiar with that position. So not only more comfortable, you know those different escapes that you've learned, you know, earlier that day, whatever, whenever you learned them. And then you can execute him way better. Get comfortable being uncomfortable. Yeah.

But that helps so much. Those situational sparring drills. Next question. Jocko. There are no bad teams, only bad leaders. Do you think there are exceptions to this? If so, how do you know you're a part of the exception? That is a quote from the book,

Extreme ownership written by myself and my brother Lafabin and it is a quote that I don't want to say we stole but we stole we appropriated from David Hackworth who said There's no bad I think he said no bad officers no bad units only bad officers and Napoleon who said there's no bad Regiments only bad colonels and we said there's no bad teams only bad leaders and the question is is there an exception to this And how do you know if you're part of the exception? Well, actually, there is, there's a big exception to this. And the exception is that there are bad leaders with good teams. That is true.

That can happen. Sometimes you get a bad leader that is running a really, really good team. So that's an exception. I guess it's an exception to this rule. Maybe. That's the way I took it. So you get a team that's so good that they just continue to perform, even though they have a horrible leader.

they perform despite their bad leader got you now what this doesn't this does not prove you know I always say leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield this doesn't disprove that statement you'd think maybe it does because oh well you got a bad leader and you got a good team then maybe leadership isn't that important that's wrong actually what it proves is that leadership can come from any level inside the organization that's what it proves and it proves that because I've seen that over and over again when I was running the training for the SEAL platoons.

Eventually, I didn't care where the leadership in the platoon was because I realized that it was a real, it was a real hard thing to hope for that you had the person that was in the leadership positions, like the platoon commander or the platoon chief, to assume or to figure that they were going to be the leader that you wanted them to be was a big assumption to make and so what I realized after training for a while was like even though I wanted the leaders to be those senior guys who were supposed to be

taking leadership eventually I realized as I didn't care where that leadership came from as long as there was a couple of good leaders you would end up with a good seal platoon and the platoon would be on track now maybe the question is what this person is hinting at the exception being is there an exception that if there's a bad team maybe that team is just so filled with bad people that they can't get the job done That's the kind of exception he's talking about we're failing because the team is so bad Even though the leader's good even though the leader's good but the team is so bad That that's an exception to the rule well guess what who's responsible for the people on the team Who's responsible for training the people on the team so that they can get good at their job and they can perform with excellence or who's in charge of

of getting rid of the people that are subpar so that the team steps up their performance well they answer all those questions is the leader so if you're on a bad team and you're leading the team it's your fault and there's no exceptions to that yeah zero yeah i'm over here trying to think of the exception but just what you said it's like yeah kind of yeah kind of negates any hey this this this let's take a real a real simple example of like a sports team right oh oh The sports team got dealt a bad hand and now the people on the team. Well, what are you going to do? You're going to train those people.

Who's responsible? I'm not saying you're going to start performing right now, but you can get on the trajectory. Will you'll be good eventually? Now, if you just blame, hey, I got a bad team. Well, guess what? Then you don't put in the effort. Guess what? You're going to continue to be a loser.

I'm the exception. Yeah. My team is just so bad. Yeah. Train your people. I'm not saying you're a miracle worker. Yeah. I'm not saying you can.

You can take people that don't have any skills and instantly through your leadership turn them into incredible Performers. No, that's not going to happen, but guess what? As a leader, you go out and you bring people into your team that are good. You do train the people that you do have up to the best of their abilities and the people that can't perform the way they need to perform. You get rid of them. Yeah. That's it. No real exceptions. Other than, yeah, you can have a good team with bad leaders. Yeah, if only because there's a good leader. somewhere in there. The exceptions thing, I think it's healthy, in my opinion, in regards to this and most other things where if I or we start thinking that we're the exception, so we don't have to put in like, I don't know, like the work or whatever, not necessarily the work, but the, you know how, like, okay, we'll take this one.

No bad teams, only bad leaders. But, you know, if I say, I might be the exception to this because my team is so bad, it's kind of like, aren't you kind of, yeah, aren't you kind of doing a little cop-out? There kind of thing you are 100% are it bottom line is if you don't take ownership of what's going on Then you're not going to perform well. Yeah if you just blame your genetics Then that means okay well then I'm not going to get in any kind of shape whatsoever then guess what guess what kind of shape you're being Junk substandard substandard you know next question Jocco leadership is knowing when to cut someone loose that can perform in a team but

do you have any techniques for trying help people who lack common sense get better in the name of just trying to make the world a better place Obviously without being a jerk My my common answer in situations like this and you've heard it before is to pick put them in charge of something right? You got someone that's that's doesn't have a lot of common sense Pick something that's maybe just outside their level of competency and put them in charge of it Something that doesn't put too much at risk So you can give them some room to make some decisions and some mistakes without doing too much damage and then you

Coach them you monitor them and you coach them and You you coach them not just on a what decision to make But more important how to make that decision so if you think about what common sense is if you break it down right if you break down what common sense is common sense is like a blank term and we don't really relate it to what it really means but it's a blanket term that covers a person's sort of natural ability to make good decisions that's what that's what common sense essentially is right because you don't look at someone someone makes a bad decision and you say that person has no common sense

yeah someone makes a good decision or continually makes good decisions that person's got a lot of a lot of common sense so what we're really talking about is their ability to make decisions so when you're trying to help someone increase their common sense what you're really trying to do is improve their decision-making process so some things to look at when it comes to improving your decision-making process number one learn how to step back and detach that's that's number one you can't make good decisions when you're all embroiled in the in the gunfight learn how to analyze and assess and create different courses of

action Some people only see one way. And when you only see one way and you can't detach, you never open up your mind to see that there could possibly be other ways. You have to, in order to have good common sense slash make good decisions, you have to understand how to look at and understand what the consequences of your actions are going to be. And that includes second and third order effects. Because a lot of times when people, oh, that guy has no common sense because they do something that to them make sense at that moment.

They don't understand what the consequences are. They don't understand the second, third order effects. And so it ends up being a bad decision. And we just throw out like, oh, the guy's got no common sense. Yeah. To make a good decision, you have to know how to mitigate risk. That's also very important to make a good decision. You have to understand what your assets are and what kind of resources you have, even on a simple decision. Yeah. Even on a quote common sense decision you have to understand what you have at hand to help you execute whatever decision you make. You have to, this is a big one. You have to learn, if you want to make good decisions, you have to understand that you're going to make some assumptions and you have to analyze those assumptions and see which ones make sense to make and which ones are not sensible to make. Because obviously, and there's that old, there's that old saying about assumptions, don't assume, because it makes an ass out of you and me.

That's a, that's a pretty realistic saying. It's a pretty good saying to keep in the back of your mind. If you make assumptions on things, however, that being said, if you make no assumptions, well, then you can never move forward on most things. Because you've got to assume, like, okay, most of the time, this is probably what's going to happen. And you can go forward with that. So the list go, you know, the list goes on. And on and what you need to do is as you give these people a little bit of Room and a little bit of responsibility and a little bit of decision making in their life like you could do with your kids right?

You give your kids the opportunity to make a decision and and and if they make a bad decision and all you do is smack them Do without explaining to them the process the decision making process which is where that decision came from then they're never going to gain more common sense and you know when you when you when you think about the list I think detachment is actually the most important thing and I think what happens the people that don't have common sense they they they actually don't have the ability at that time because they haven't been trained properly to see things from an outside perspective yeah have you ever noticed when somebody does something that's completely lack the complete lack of

common sense You raise the point to them they're always kind of like astonished that like they don't even get Why what they did was dumb. They just think that that's just how it was gonna be And they don't even understand that what they did was dumb. Yeah, and sometimes you have to actually explain to people that they're so In great they're so embedded in their decision-making process. They can't see it from an external perspective So they didn't even understand how dumb their decision was. Yeah, if you can get them some level of detachment, then you're moving them in the right direction. You're improving their common sense.

And yes, when you're doing that, to your credit, you're actually making the world a better place. Yeah. And you kind of said this anyway, but you give them experience, you know, like when you let them like make more decisions. Because really, that's really what common sense is, right? If you have or don't have common sense, it's like, if you have a lot of experience, common sense is like you're a little bit more in touch with it than someone with very little experience.

So let's say, I mean, culturally, we'll say. So in Hawaii, everyone takes out their shoes when they go in the house. That's just how. And, you know, in the mainland, it's not like that. So if I've never been to Hawaii, I have no experience in Hawaii, but, you know, in the, I've lived in the mainland the whole time. But I don't have any access to the, you know, Hawaii culture or whatever. I go to Hawaii.

I'm going to leave my shoes on, you know, it's like common sense, man. You take off your shoes if you've only lived in Hawaii the whole time, right? Right. Now, you could argue, hey, all you got to do is look around and see, but, bro, I don't, I'm not trained to look around to see what everyone's wearing and not wearing, you know? Like, bro, that's weird. Do you ever notice? I would say once a month at the gym, someone walks on the mat with shoes on, like, just not even. Yeah. When it's, there's, they're literally stepping over a big pile or line of flip-flops and shoes to get on the mat.

Yeah. And they're just no factor. They're just stepping over with their street shoes on. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's the exact. And you would think common sense would tell you, hey, it looks like every single person,

there's 28 people on the mat. None of them are wearing shoes and I'm stepping over. You'd think, but that's a person that doesn't have common sense. Right. So what you have to do with a person like that, when you see someone that does that kind of thing, you know, let's say your kid did that. You'd say, hey, instead of just going, hey, take off your shoes. You know, you go, hey, before you do something, look around at the environment.

Take a look around. What do you see? You see all these people on the mat, none of them wearing shoes, and you look right in front of your feet and there's all these shoes off the mat. That probably indicates that you should take off your shoes. That should be a good decision. It should be, but now you're going into yet another different type of experience. Like if you're in scenarios often where you were looking around and seeing what other people are doing and wearing and all this stuff, if you're constantly in situations like that, that will be become more part of your common sense, right? But so it's like to say, I mean, there are plenty of people who in normal, everyday life, have normal common sense like everyone else who would wear shoes on the mat. They just simply would because they don't, hey, these guys are training. They're not going to wear shoes while they're training.

So they took off their shoes. I'm not training. I'm just going to go talk to this guy over here. Boom. I'm rolling with the shoes on the mat. Just like, oh, I've never been away. You know, I'm going to go in this house. They live here.

Maybe he just got out of bed. Maybe they just want to be comfortable. because they got out of work, I don't know. I don't, it doesn't go through the thought process of my common sense. My common sense is if I don't have to take off my shoes for something specific, I'm not going to do it. That's just how. That's just my common experience, you know?

So the common sense is kind of a situational thing, you know, it's not just cutting, he has common sense versus not. So you put him in more experience that's common to the group. Oh, man, his common sense goes up. Fair enough, bro. I think so. I think so. Next question.

I've been told by employees that I'm cold and non-engaging. My peers say I charge hell with a bucket of water and sometimes get to stop or sometimes forget to stop and fill the bucket. In military training, we all went through the mental part. And in battle, some won't engage properly. I treat my business the same way as I fought. In a firefight, my mind was clear, focused on the objective and being aggressive always. Why should my business be any different? Delegate and don't quit until you accomplish the goal.

Is this wrong? So let's start with cold and non-engaging. I get that people have different levels of emotional responsiveness. I get that. I'm probably a little bit on the low end of that in terms of being super emotionally responsive. Agree. I don't really get mad. I don't usually get frustrated.

But at the same time, as a leader, you have to show some emotion. And if you show no emotion at all, then you aren't a person, you're a robot, and robots don't really connect with people. And so you don't form any relationships. And if you don't form good relationships, you're not going to have. a good leadership connection with your team that's the way it is so you got to show some emotions you you don't need to get all wild and in fact as a leader your emotions should be controlled they should be you know if a normal person's emotions go from one to ten a leader should be like you know at three maybe four

and they shouldn't go beyond that and I've talked about this before if if someone if my team's getting all emotional and I'm just all cold I actually disconnect from my team and all of a sudden they're looking at me like I'm not one of them yeah that's a bad thing yeah it doesn't even care same thing with your with your spouse if you your spouse is all mad about something and you're like hey just calm down you're good that's gonna be a problem you have to you have to give them some emotions back so show some emotions as a leader you might even have to you know manufacture that just a little bit to to let them see that you You know you you got to do that with your kids sometimes. You know because like your kid is doing something that you know they shouldn't be doing

But it's kind of funny and it's hard to get mad at but you realize if you don't get mad and this this behavior escalates Then that's problematic like are you kind of fired up when your kid does something climbs up on a wall and is balancing you know eight feet in the air Well if they fall and crack their head that's gonna be a problem Yeah at the same time you think it's kind of cool but you have to reinforce safety yeah And so you got to be like a little bit angry at him right? Hey Hey, I told you not to do right kid running in the row or whatever you got it. You got to reinforce stuff So it's so you you actually have to show some level of emotions now as far as the other part of the question

Is aggression and never quitting? Is that wrong? Well, you know quite frankly Yes Yes, it can be very wrong. Of course, much of what the statement is, it makes sense, right? Be aggressive. Don't quit. Focus on the objective. Charge into hell with a vengeance, right?

We all like to hear that, right? That reflects a great attitude. I think everyone would expect me and they would actually hear me say those things. The same exact things. They want to be aggressive. We're never going to quit. We're going to take that objective no matter what. You would hear me say that.

But at the same time, we have to remember that there are dichotomies in leadership right and taking what is a normally what is normally a good attitude to an absolute extreme without any balance at all that will turn into a problem So it sounds like this individual is aggressive which is a very positive trait but it sounds like perhaps There are times when this individual might be too aggressive now most people don't want to hear that and they don't think they're gonna hear that for me right you almost think when somebody asked me a question like this you almost think in their back of their mind they're going you know what jock was gonna tell me and i'm gonna go even harder yeah yeah right i'm gonna get reinforcement from jocco about how being aggressive is awesome but here's the reality and especially you throw like the the firefight thing

like jocco's definitely gonna be on board with me now but guess what here's a reality if you're in a firefight and the enemy is in an elevated bunker position across open ground and you just attacking it with your platoon what's gonna happen I'll tell you what's gonna happen you're all gonna die that's what's gonna happen mm-hmm so you're all fired up you're all aggressive you're never gonna quit and you're all gonna die does that help us does that help us achieve our overall strategic objective the answer is no if you pull back for a minute if you detach from a moment mentally and possibly physically as well you will likely see that there's a

better approach oh how about we call for fire support how would we put down some cover lay down some suppressive fire and move around to the flank of the bunkered position there's a bunch of different ways that you can get this done in a much more survivable way but the fact is if you're always aggressive and your mindset is I am not gonna quit then you won't see those other solutions and yes that is problematic yes is wrong and it's the same thing in dealing with people if if people don't respond to your leadership and your reaction of that is just to get more and more aggressive with them

they aren't likely to come around right in fact they are likely to either become hostile towards you because you're being aggressive towards them or they break yeah which each one of those is problematic bad bad results either my team becomes hostile towards me or I break my team either way it's bad so being aggressive all the time no not good and same thing same thing to be like I defaults aggressive right I literally teach people to be that way but if you go too far with it you'll end up in a bad situation same thing with don't quit right of course of course don't quit great attitude my attitude I'm never gonna quit I want everyone on my team to have

attitude I have that attitude that's like the the saying in in the seal teams don't quit never quit but you have to be very very careful that you don't confuse don't quit with don't try any other solutions or don't deviate from the original plan no matter what yeah hey I'm not quitting I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing over and over again I'm gonna keep going forward with the same plan the plan isn't working Okay, but I'm not a quitter. I'm just going to keep doing the same plan.

Right. That's not good. That's not good. Don't quit means you don't give up. It actually don't quit actually means try different solutions if one of them isn't working. Don't quit means keep an open mind. Don't quit means you don't quit thinking. Don't think.

Don't quit thinking. And then don't quit means you continue to keep thinking and keep thinking and keep. keep addressing a problem and keep attacking the problem until you do accomplish the mission but you do that through multiple different avenues not the same avenue the whole time that's how you lead that's how you get aggressive that's how you actually never quit and by the way that is how you win yeah that morale thing remember you're you're talking about morale actually a lot where, you know, how like some bosses

they'll be like, hey, I'm not here to make you feel good or I'm not here to make friends or whatever. You know, and sometimes like behavior or whatever, things like that can lead to behavior that makes people like not want to work for you or not feel good about the job. Like, I'm not happy about like, what's the use of making someone do the job

if they don't feel good about doing it? You know, like the morale is down. I used to think, well, morale, like people need. to just toughen up you know like freaking morality you you don't just not do something just because you're not feeling good that day kind of kind of thing I thought that too but man if you have a group of people who they all don't want to do it but they're not going to it's a problem at the end of the day they're gonna not do it well they might do that one thing that day yeah I mean well yeah for time

they're gonna break down for sure yeah you're not leading them in the in the right direction yeah you can look forcing people to do things when you're in a position of authority you can do that Yeah, that works. That's functional. That's a thing. It'll work a little bit. Yeah.

Right? But over time, will you end up with a team that really will perform well and will continue to drive when they hit obstacles? No, you won't. You'll end up with a team that's doing what they're being told to do out of fear. Yeah. And that team is going to get beat by the team that is doing it because they want to do it. Yeah. Yeah.

So if it's like, you know, the guy who, you know, they, I don't think that my boss cares about me. In fact, I think that he kind of doesn't care about me. That's what I think. You're not going to do a lot of extra effort to support your boss. I'm sure won't want to. Next question, Jocco. Do you talk about building relationships a lot at work,

even when people whom you might not like, even with people whom you don't like. Have you always been this way, or did you also feel difficult? Also feel difficulty. Difficulty in wanting to build relationships with those people. If the latter, what are the things that help you to actually want to build relationships with them? Thanks.

So, when I was a young seal, I was pretty typical young seal. Pretty typical young man, meaning I thought I was invincible. I thought I could beat everyone in a fight because I didn't know Jiu-Jitsu, so you just think you're just going to win, but that you're wrong. I thought I knew everything of course And I thought I was smarter than everyone else Kind of typical Sometimes I would rub people the wrong way And the people that I would rub the wrong way

Were especially people that I thought were not squared away in the chain of command So if you weren't square if you if you were my boss and I didn't think you were squared away I was gonna rub you the wrong way Because I was gonna be slightly offensive Yeah, yeah As a matter of fact I got an event It's one of the first evaluations that I got when I got to a SEAL team and back in the day Yeah, you'd get you were rated 4.0 was the highest you could get and it would go all the way down to whatever like one

But at this time they basically everyone got 4-0 and everything right you basically got 4-0 and everything Yeah, yeah and like you'd have to mess up you have to mess up to get deviate from the 4-0 so I got all 4-0s And I got a 3.8 which was like a major dig and the dig was in I think it was like in relation like I don't know what the word was but when I got debriefed on it what the guy that gave me the 3-8 what he what he told me which I actually was proud of because that's how stupid I was he's like you you're you're too hostile with people that aren't squared away that's literally what he told and I was all like whatever you're

I am hostile towards people that aren't squared away I'm gonna go to war right just an idiot That's what that's what the situation was and You know it made me mad if a leader was weak and I would form these antagonistic Relationships with leaders if I thought that they were weak and one of these bosses eventually that I thought I was better than Right I thought I was smarter I thought I was smarter than I thought I was smarter than than him right I thought that he was an idiot sure I should have his job right how often do you think that right I should have that guy's job I'm better than that I'm smarter

and the more I showed this attitude the worse our relationship got and the and the less he listened to me and the less influence I had over how we did things and therefore the the worse we did and the and the the worse our ability to to perform got because he was just doing things the way he thought without any good input from anyone below him in the chain of command all because I had formed this antagonistic relationship with him which was bad because then he's not listening to me and then one day one day I said to myself if I'm so smart if I'm such a smart guy why am I losing Why am I losing?

If I'm so smart, if I am so smart, why can't I get this guy to do what I want him to do? Even though he's my boss, it doesn't matter. If I'm so smart, I'm so much smarter than him, why can't I get him to do what I want him to do? Why, if I'm so smart, how come I can't have more influence over the way we operate? If I'm so smart and he's so dumb. And that's, that's when I realized. That's when I had an awakening, an awakening that instead of blaming him for being stupid, I was the one who was being stupid. I had lost the ability to influence my boss because I was being stupid and because of my ego.

I literally thought I deserved his job. I mean, I thought pretty much anyone should anyone in the platoon staff his job. And therefore, since I thought that, I undermine. him instead of supporting him instead of building a relationship with him I undermined him now once I got humble and I started to build a positive relationship with him instead of an antagonistic one that started to change and because because then he started listening to me he started to change some things and my influence over the whole situation became better because I now had a

relationship despite the fact that I didn't really like the guy despite that fact I built the relationship and the situation got better I had more influence and that became kind of my standard operating procedure was to build relationships with people even if I didn't like them to build relationships with people so that I could have more influence now does what does that sound like right that sounds like I'm kind of this manipulative Two-face superficial disingenuous guy. That's being devious and conniving. Not keeping it real.

Not keeping it real, right? But the fact is, that is not true. That's not, that's not, that's not who I am. You want to know who I am? I'm a guy that's trying to accomplish the mission. That's what I am. I'm a guy that is trying to accomplish the mission who is putting my own ego in check to build a relationship with someone that I don't,

like that I don't respect but what I'm trying to do is improve our operational capability that's what's more important to me trying to arrange the situation build the relationship so that we do better not so that I get promoted not so that I'm getting some accolades but so that we as a team do a better job put the little feelings aside because I want the team to win so if you're having having some trouble getting over your feelings and getting over your ego to build relationships for the good of their team ask yourself the same question I asked myself a long time ago which is this if I am so smart why am I not winning

and if you answer that question honestly then you'll put your ego in check you'll go build the relationships that will make you and your team accomplish the mission and win there you go can't help but agree with that one you know you know what's funny is we think about like why you wouldn't like someone what what causes you to not like someone most of the time that's your ego anyways yeah most of the time that's your ego anyways yeah and and so you know you you had that story of the you know you were consulting somebody it was like a big CEO of like a lacrosse guy That story is probably the most common story.

I mean, the way you handle it, different. Yeah, but that scenario that you started with, with that story so common, man, where, yeah, they rubbed me the wrong way because right off the bat, you see them as some kind of competitive figure to you. Like, you know, some, you know, you're competing with them in your own mind, in whatever. And the feeling is probably mutual a lot of the time, you know, so you guys don't like each other. You know, one, anything he says, you're, you know, you're already defensive. But it's weird, man, how you can, how that happened.

Like, that's happened to me before. Not as, it wasn't as overt, but just like, yeah, I don't really feel that guy. You know, I don't like, I would, because I, not only is he like when you look at him or whatever, they're kind of competitive with you, but maybe they do something just this much different than you, you know, like a just different in philosophy or something like that. So it's like, oh, I'm against that guy. And then they open their mouth and say one word to you and it's real nice. You're like, oh, I love that guy. You know, just one little thing. Just one little like, hey, I'm cool.

You know, I like you kind of thing. And it's like, oh, man. Yeah, when they say something humble to you, it disarms your ego and you're all of a sudden. You're bros. Yeah. So weird how that is. But if they don't, if they escalate the ego situation, which then it's very problematic. Happens all the time too, man.

I mean, really, that's the natural course of things. Because you do have to put on the brakes on your feelings and be like, okay, let's make a different kind of decision than the automatic one. I got to switch to manual real quick. And then boom. But the bottom line is you're going to interact with all kinds of different people. If you're in any kind of team whatsoever, which is most, most human beings interact with other human beings through their job, through their life.

through I mean, you can apply this to your family too, right? There's someone in your family that you don't get along with. Well, what good does it do? Does it make your family unit better when you let those emotions play out and let your ego play out? No, it doesn't. You're better off. You'll get further and you'll have a better life in your family. If you put your ego in check and say, you know what, I'm just going to build a relationship with this person.

It's going to make everything better and smoother. But it's like, man, if you, I feel like you can take the place of any marriage counselor by just saying that, for real. Like, all you got to do is, and they got to do it, but all you got to do is ask, like, is this going to help their relationship with my wife or my family or whoever it is in your, is this going to help their relationship if I do this or don't do this or is it going to hurt it. And that's a, that's it's super general question or whatever, but it's so cut and dry most of the time. Yeah, of course, it's exceptions. But generally speaking, it's pretty cut and dry. And a lot of time, just like I said, it has to do with like your ego or you're, you know, this this sense of vengeance Little micro sense of vengeance because I can't believe she doesn't respect the fact that I took out the trash

You know she asked me to take the trash all the time finally when I do it nothing you know like telling It's just that I was talking to a A friend of mine and we were talking about you know I've talked about the mutiny that I had Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we had a mutiny we had a mutiny we We fired we had a mutiny against our platoon commander. We fired he got fired and then the other guy that came in to take his place was like the best guy And I was talking to a guy that worked with him much later when he was a senior senior guy And I was telling him I was like oh when I talk on the podcast about the platoon commander that was like the best that's who I'm talking about he's like no way And and this guy worked with he was a senior guy and he says you know when he when I worked with him he he would take out his

He would take out the trash from the office every day. And I started laughing. I'm like, that's, that's right. And I'd be look, and he was saying like, oh, I'd look at him and be like, sir, you know, you don't need to do that. He's like, no, no, no, it's good, you know? Somebody's got to take out the trash. I got it. This is a seat.

A guy that shouldn't have been taking out trash for 25 years taking out the trash. Was he picking up brass? Picking up brass, taking out trash. That's, that's being humble. Yeah. Being humble goes a long. long way. Next question.

We got time for one more. Because I got stuffed. Sure. Hi, Jocco. I'm a veteran in graduate school. My mother passed away in April and I took a few weeks off. While that was helpful, I'm struggling returning to work. My peers are younger and inexperienced.

I'm the oldest in the cohort and probably the first vet to come to this grad program. I've already had some uphill battles and up to this point I truly believe I was worthy of my own suffering. Now, though, after sobbing on a plane while listening to episode 122, I don't feel is worthy. I wasn't there for my mother when she died.

In fact, I cut her out due to her drinking, which is what killed her. I've lost people close to me in the past and in the service, but this is different. I know one thing. I'm a fighter.

I've had to fight all my life to get where I am but I'm feeling deflated. I mean to start with of course you feel deflated because you lost your mom that's that's normal but what is not normal in what you have to fight against is staying deflated so I mean listen your mom is gone and you should certainly mourn that you weren't by her side when she died and this is due to the fact that you had to cut her off and you had to cut her off because of her drinking if you don't cut someone off when they're going down that path you're only enabling them and that is not the right thing to do and of course we want to be able to save everyone that's absolutely we want to be able to save everyone that's absolutely we want to be able to save everyone especially our own family members but the fact of the matter is that you you just can't save everyone no one can no one can addiction is in many cases stronger than us

stronger than anything stronger than love believe it or not stronger than life itself sometimes that's how strong addiction is and You cannot and are not expected to be able to defeat that. So you did what you could. And in the end, the battle was lost not because of you, but because of addiction. And it is hard to face that kind of loss. But now, how are you going to look at this? How are you going to deal with this?

I look at it like this your mother your mother gave you a gift a precious gift she gave you the gift of knowledge that that knowledge allows you to see how destructive that force of addiction can be you saw it destroy her you saw that addiction destroy her because she showed it to you that was her last gift to you. She she's actually given you life twice, once at birth and once at her death. She's actually shown you how to live by showing you how not to live. So thank your mother for that. Thank her. Literally go to her graveside and get down on your knees and say thank you to her and then tell her that you won't let her down. and then tell her that you will learn from her lesson then tell her that you will go on to live an incredible life a life that she would be proud of a life that she didn't have but a life that she is making sure you can have now you said that you're a fighter and that's one thing you know is that you're a fighter well

Now get out there and you know that that question and Kind of thinking about the answer to that question that got me thinking about An article that I read about Anthony Bourdain and Anthony Bordane obviously he was about as successful as As as anyone could be I mean He was a successful guy in so many aspects and yet And yet he killed himself. I didn't know him personally, but you know he knew people that I know you know he was he was friends with Joe Rogan He was he was friends with Harley Flanagan

He was friends with guys that guys that are really good guys and So in that way I kind of felt like I knew what kind of a guy he was at least and even from the outside even without having you any connections to him at all he he was a kind of guy that had just about everything that that that most people would want and even still I mean obviously that wasn't enough in the article that I read there was a quote from one of Anthony Bordain's books and the book was called a cook's tour he said in this book I wanted adventures I wanted to go up the Nung River to the heart of darkness in Cambodia I wanted to ride out into a desert on camelback sand and dunes in every direction eat whole roasted lamb with my fingers I

wanted to kick snow off my boots in a mafia nightclub in Russia I wanted to play with automatic weapons in Phnom Penh repatripture the past in a small oyster village in France step into a cede neon lit pulcaria in rural Mexico I wanted to run roadblocks in the middle of the night blowing past angry militia with a handful of hurled marble packs experience fear excitement wonder I wanted kicks the kind of melodramatic thrills and chills I'd yearned for since childhood the kind of adventure I'd found as a little boy in the pages of my tin tin comic books. I wanted to see the world and I wanted the world to be just like the movies Anthony Bourdain said just like the movies but you know what to me the world is not like the movies

aren't real they they don't exist but you do and life this life is it's better than any movie there is movies are supposed to provoke emotion they're supposed to make you feel something but I have a better idea go out into the world and actually feel it go feel joy and love and triumph and rapture and ecstasy and glory go feel those things and you know with those feelings There will be other feelings as well. There'll be sorrow and pain and sadness and desolation and suffering. There'll be all those feelings too.

But you know what? Both sides feel all of it. That's what life is. Those feelings, those emotions, those highs and those lows. Those are life. and those emotions and those feelings are better than any movie because they are real your own comic book make your life your own movie actually make it better than a movie not not better because it's more adventurous or more romantic or more melodramatic make it better it's real so it is better

And you know what real comes with some downsides Real comes with some darkness It's okay because when you know the darkness The light becomes even brighter toward the light move Toward the light tonight So so echo let's talk to People a little bit about how to support this podcast and at the same thing time move themselves a little further away from the darkness and a little bit closer

To the light because we make the podcast so everyone can learn and if you want to Support the podcast. There are some really good ways to do it and That's the goal support podcast and you're supporting yourself at the same time. So yes, we got they go hand in hand agree 100,000% not possible but we'll do with it yeah that's what I'm saying can you agree one thing you know how they say I agree with the 110% I agree with you I agree with you I think I feel 10% even more strong than what you just said you know okay technically that could be I'm just saying anyway yes so we'll start with origin origin USA in Maine farming to Maine to be exact American made products what do we

You got, okay, geese, that's really the flagship. I like the word flagship, by the way. Flagship product is the ghee. Made for Jiu-Jitsu specifically for Jiu-Jitsu in America. Also made for specifically Jiu-Jitsu, but usable for many different activities. What? Like making a suit? Rash guards.

Oh, yeah. Okay. You said, Gie is like flagship, right, which I agree with. But then you also have rash guards. stuff yeah stuff compression gear compression gear yeah spats if you will yeah for sure but the geese aren't just like geese though see I'm saying they're not just a general gie the gie made in America by the way for jiu-jitsu specifically when you move in jiu-jitsu is different than moving in I don't know whatever else you might

wear a guy in like tennis whatever bro you were saying you're gonna make a suit with the dragon yeah that is kind of crazy yeah yeah actually I I have an idea of something to make with the dragon weave. I'm gonna talk to Pete about. All right, what is it? Let me see. Reveal, reveal. Believe it or not, boots. Boots? Yeah.

Okay, yeah, so they wouldn't be full dragon. No, no, no. They'd be very similar to the old school Vietnam jungle boots. But they'd have the dragon, instead of canvas, they'd have dragon weave. And because, which I think is literally the perfect material for the, Old school jungle boots are part leather, like leather around the toe and the heel. But then they have canvas on the sides,

and I wore jungle boots, and I still wear jungle boots. I love jungle boots. So, yeah, so I, but if we made, because the cotton canvas does stay wet longer. But if we use the dragon weave, it dries quicker because it's a blend, but cotton is also very comfortable to wear. It allows circulation.

So anyways, that's what? I'll talk to Pete. We'll make it happen. So the shorts that I have that no one else can have is dragging weave, right? That is, okay. So I was talking to Pete about, let me make some more. And we went through the thing, that's the whole other thing. But here's what I do remember if you, since you brought up boots where, okay, so those shorts, you know, I have kids.

And with kids comes messes, you know, where they'll spill some, I don't know, whatever. So stuff will land on those shorts. And, you know, the kind of where it's like, dang, I don't want to take off these shorts and go wash them. Like, let me just put some water. But then some of the messes, like, you can't just put water. It goes away. You got to scrub it. But if they're, like, normal shorts, I'm going to scrub it with, like, a brush.

And it's going to kind of mess up the shorts a little bit right there. You know, it'll make it, like, kind of fray them or something like that. Brow, not these ones, bro, I'm scrubbing it with a steel wool thing to get the thing out. Br, bro, the thing is, like, new still. Aside from, like, the cotton part fades, right? You know how it's a blend, right? So the cotton ones will fade. So it has this awesome little gray stripe with black.

Brat's dope. incidental dopeness improvement in the aesthetic look that's a side note but I'm saying it's tough with the

you see what I'm saying so it kind of makes sense now dragon weed boots boom you're in the jungle fishing whatever else we're doing with them and they handle you know what I'll work on it

would you make it like on the inside would it be what it called water reset proof or whatever that's the thing with jungle boots you don't want them waterproof they're highly breathing you have little eyelets oh yeah little drains

So you want them highly breathable like like not even breathable open. Yeah There's holes it's purposely put in there so that's the concept is real Jiu-jitsu-ish you know because like on at first thought you'd be like hey you're gonna walk in water we need to fight that water No it's like yeah allow the water in it and let it back out yeah man that's good yeah it's good see brother that's why you're advanced see you think about these things thing Speaking of being advanced and comfortable advanced comfort with the job joggers and the sweats. It's my experience. Try it for yourself. Many people actually I saw the guy today, maybe yesterday, today, yes, I forget, but he got the hoodie, one of the origin's hoodie, boom, seconded that exact notion, most comfortable hoodie ever. He's ever had. That's a bold statement.

And I could just tell from his profile picture that he knew about comfort. I don't know. It just, I just could feel it. Nonetheless, it happened factually. Also, we got some supplements up there on the origin main dot com website you can get some supplements okay supplements some good ones yeah so joint warfare that one would could we call that one a flagship supplement you can call everything i'm gonna i'm gonna call it a flagship yeah yeah the flagshay is good man by the way someone said someone said on social media go back to the old way you were doing the support oh oh yeah sounds clunky is it back to xx He said.

Yeah, yeah. You know what I said? Couldn't take it anymore. I'm going to be honest. I will accept the possibility, probability of you not being the only one that thought that. So I'm going to go with it. There was that one guy, though. He was fired up enough to tweet me and say, bro, sounds clunky.

Dang, I kind of appreciate it. Yeah, you're stoked. I really do now that I think of it. We could have a separate podcast where you could just do supports the whole time. Separate version. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can kind of choose. Choose your own support.

Yeah, maybe. Nonetheless, for now this is what we're doing. We're going with joint warfare. Joint warfare. Right, good for your joints. Omega-3 is good for your joints. And that's in krill oil. So you got joint warfare, glucosamine conjoining and curcumin.

That helps your brain, by the way, as we found out. Additionally. Additionally. Then you got sued jock. Thanks to Rhonda Patrick. Yeah. Rhonda Patrick, right? Yeah, it was like there.

I read that too, by the way. It's good. Then you got okay, so you got joint warfare, boom, glucosamine conjoin, that's for I think cartilage if I'm not mistaken joints all this stuff boom curcumin for some brain some memory stuff boom, that's joint warfare Then you got jaco super krill that's for you joints and make a threes and that's also for other parts of your Anatomy stack it up it will say your whole internal system You didn't your eyes? Eyeballs eyeballs organs brain can you crack open a krill oil capsule and put it

directly into your eyes is that a good thing I'm assuming no you know but yeah let's not do that I think I've been on girl oil for so long yeah people like I don't want to ever go off of it yeah I think that's a good idea to never go off of it the reason is because I had a guy many years ago that was this is when I was probably 35 sure I met a guy that was 53 I think and he was jacked And he was jacked but he wasn't he wasn't jack like a like a big bodybuilder Juiced up guy just jack like totally athletic yeah and In really great shape and I was like hey man what's the deal with you know and he's like I take girl oil

That's easy. That's the secret he was like attributing yeah he attributed all this now he was a competitive power lifter at one time So he had maintained and continued to work out yeah, but he was basically saying that to me as if we already knew that right we already know that you got a jack steel like we that's a given I'm just because I was talking to him for a while and we were talking about lifting we're talking about this and and then finally you know I got so what do you think it is and he's like I take girl oh this was before and I was like okay sometimes when somebody tells you something you're just you just look at the guy and when they give that much weight to it yeah it's like okay we're going with

that and what's cool is that's that's I definitely I definitely felt the the difference in my joints yeah I don't know about my eyeballs well you know although I don't wear glasses at this point yeah there it is proof that's that's something yeah it's not nothing that's for sure and the same way you you well not in the same way but slightly similar way you had the power lifter guy talk about krill oil my father-in-law as I've mentioned before told me about krill way better than fish oil yeah you know he's telling me or but was he jacked he a thing he wasn't is a jack and here this is part of the whole story which kind of is

gonna kind of feed into your point no he is not jacked at all in fact mean him go left but this guy shouldn't even be in the same gym with me he should be in the gym across the street you're gonna hear this podcast I don't care because it's absolutely 100% sure not really doing a good job building that relationship with the family at the end of the day you'll you'll see the moral and yeah I think it will I think it will anyway so no not jack the answer is no he can swim for Ever, ever. In fact, he goes in Hawaii,

me and Maui waters with the, you know, the web hands, you know, for swimming. Okay. Some bodyboarders use it sometimes. They're just webhands. Spongers. Yeah, sure. He doesn't, he's not spongers, but he's a swimmer. So he'll just swim, hour.

Boom, just swimming. Anyway, he'd always say, you know, krill oil, all this stuff. But yeah, he's not jacked. He doesn't lift. Like, why he, you take cruel oil and you get your X, X, Y, Z results. Cool. I don't want those X, X, Z results. Those results that you're essentially benefiting from, apparently, don't apply to my goals at all.

Exactly right. So I'm like, okay, cool, I get it. Health nut. He's a health nut. He's into health. That's a positive thing. That's not bad. There's worse things to be a nut about.

I'll tell you that. Health is a good thing. Anyway, he's into health. But it seems like you think it's a little bit better to be a health nut that's jacked. I'm not going to disagree. So, you know, for years. And I'm like, cool, good for the info. Yeah, then you come along and you're like, yeah, Krill.

Oh, boom, next day. I'm on the krill oil, literally next day. And so, of course, he's been saying it the whole time or whatever. But at the end of the day, he's right. He's absolutely right. He was right. Yeah. So the moral of the story is you could be right and not jacked.

Yes. I got to kind of separate, you know, my, what do you call? I got to detach is what I got to do. You know, like an older guy with the ability to do the things and at the health level He's at I do want for myself regardless how much weights I can lift or can't lift That's what I want general health yeah yeah man big time and here's the thing I didn't think indirectly as well Because the better your joints feel especially as you get older But just in life regardless how old you are the better your joints are functioning the more you're gonna be able to lift

Or mountain climb or ride bike or compete in badminton How do you say that badminton? Oh, okay, yeah Yeah, compete in that. That's true, bro. Don't be all stiff. You don't need tennis or badminton elbow, you know, for, anyway, krill oil. That's the one, omega-3s. And then you have discipline, right?

And that's for your brain, memory, cognitive things. So they play into each other. You see what I'm saying. So the joint warfare has the brain stuff and the joint stuff. Crill oil has the joint stuff. I had a really good day at Jiu-Jitsu the other day. And I was talking to Dave Burke on my way home from Jiu-Jitsu. Good deal, Dave.

Yeah, good deal, Dave. And I was like I was you know you said oh yeah I trained today I was like I had a really good day At that jujit So he's like what does that mean I'm like all just means you know like just getting after just And I realized that the past Anyways I realized that I've been taking like three scoops of discipline

Prior to train Okay all right Is that illegal? Yeah well you know Is that not fair? It should be maybe yeah Well it depends on what you mean by fair Because if you're going to to compete with your training partners, which you do from time to time,

let's face it, then yeah, it's a little bit of an advantage, we'll say. Yeah. Fair? No, actually it's fair. Andy or whoever you go into training with, Dean, me, we could take three things of discipline.

If you wanted to. You wanted to, it's fair, it's fair. In fact, I recommend take three things of discipline. Boom, there it is, discipline. Cognitive enhancing. So they all play with each other. That's important. Very important.

I think Regardless how much you can live Yeah check Also mok Mok What is Moke What is that Who is someone does just ask me about Mulk

And the best thing about when people Ask you what Mulk is Is you get a chance to do the routine Right You get a chance to do the routine When someone's like What's Moke What's that? What's Moke?

Yeah And you're a lot you get to do the routine Which is what's Malk Oh it's Mulk That's the Routes That's the routine. You're like, well, what is it? It's mook.

No, it's moat. You want some kind of an explanation? You're like, no, no, it's, it's mook. Yeah, yeah. Common sense, really. After you say that, you just take common sense from there and boom, clear. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

That's my goal. My goal is that it ends up in the Oxford English dictionary. Yeah, like Xerox. And then if someone doesn't know what it is, they can just go look it up. Yeah, look it up. In the dictionary, by the way. Yeah. Like Google.

Is Google in there for like a verb? Yes. Google is in an a verb. Go Google that. Well, yeah. So go Google milk. Yeah. It's there.

You'll find it. Yes, sir. You'll know what it is. Well, you'll know that it's tasty. The guy that said, hey, I don't use protein powders. But does it taste that good? I should just get it anyways. My answer was 100%.

Resounding, absolutely. You just want to have a really good dessert. Get milk. Peanut butter's coming. So Dave Burke is. Burke is on the path to to order all the peanut butter chocolate anyways oh the whole supply yeah he wants the whole supply not a bad idea yeah I thought about that but yeah so yeah if you know milk look I'm gonna violate some terminology scenarios here

Mulk is protein powder it's actually Moke yeah man the best protein powder that tastes like a dessert straight up does though not just claims and doesn't it does Straight up literally a and we will have Mulk at the immersion camp this summer up in Maine on Echo Lake layers August 26 through September 2nd two sessions come up there. I'll be there Leif will be there echo Charles will be there and apparently you say you will be rolling Yeah limited okay limited rolling from from which sounds like pre-determined excuses which is fine Yeah, well here okay all right well let me lay it out then play boy the the the Ghee I'll be doing less of because gie has a lot of gripping, gripping, pulling.

So pulling, I'm really, bro, I'm out of pulling. I can't do pulling. You're very limited, maybe with one hand. So I'll do ghee, but it's like, okay, now I'm rolling literally with one hand. By the way, Dean Lister will be there. Dean Lister will be there. And if you want to learn from someone, he is one of the top people in the world to learn from.

And I know that's a bold statement. I know it is. He's got a mind that understands not only the mechanics, and the concepts of Jiu-Jitsu at a at a but one of the highest levels of anyone I've ever communicated with but also knows how to express those concepts in a very clear way so emerging camp August 26th through September 2nd go and come up there we'll see up there good places and we will have Mok there yes lots of it and Dean's good at at kind of taking the concept and really clarifying the concept even separate from the action

I mean the moves always attached but Dean says things sometimes that I run over and take no take like a little a little note on my On my phone. Yeah, I'm gonna call it that's a good one and usually I say usually I'm thinking I'm gonna when we when he comes on the podcast I'm gonna talk about those things so open him up Yeah, also good way to support is the fact or on top of the fact Or is part of the fact that Jocko has his own store. It's called Jocco store. Go to jocco store. Go to jocco store.com For these items. It's where you can get rash cards. You can definitely get rash cards. Yes, get after it T-shirts a bunch of t-shirts. Yeah, the ones that say discipline equals freedom. New t-shirt coming? New T-shirts are coming. Oh T-shirts with plural. Yeah, oh dang two of them if

Yeah, if you're interested in the T-shirts the ones that say discipline equals freedom. It's a good one I get Revealed how deep the expression discipline equals freedom goes like almost day in that not daily let's say once a week you understand it at a deep level deeper level it's presented to reveal to you how important it is yes how much even more than I pre for previously thought the week before it's like it has no no limit to the layers it's pretty important yeah yeah actually I've been sporting the discipline equals

freedom hat the trucker hat so And I also have the deaf beanie get some. Yeah, that's a good one. So you got that those are available. Check. Yep. Yes. And also,

hoodies, heavy hoodies and light hoodies. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. But I have been getting feedback online and offline, by the way, for the light hoodie. Oh, people just love them, huh?

Bro, they want the light hoodie, man. and they want to represent, you know, like I say, hey, what's up, Hawaii? Brough, I'm telling you, there are times, many times, all them, everybody. And all the Ohana and Hawaii's hitting you up. The Kama Aina, all them, yes. And because in Hawaii and other places here, let's face it,

there are times where it's like, hey, like yesterday was one of them. It's like, bro, it's kind of cold, but it's not cold. It's kind of cold. If you wear a T-shirt, it's like, man, this environment, weather is offering not see no no no negative negative no that's not to me especially if you're at like a little gathering social situation it's maybe it could be looked at as paramount but here's what it is if the if the if the weather whatever environment is offering slight discomfort you have a right you know what I'm laughing so hard

right now because everything you're saying is things that I wouldn't allow myself or any one of my immediate family to say to admit yeah I get you know it doesn't make it any it doesn't make it anymore true that's the thing so hey look it meaning you're cruising right outside maybe not you I get it if me and I don't think you do I don't think you do that's the thing if me and Dave Burke were cruising okay maybe he'd want a little lightweight sweatser it's like it's just maybe three degrees too cold Suck it up. Yeah, you can suck it up. But what?

Why you got to endure discomfort at times when it's not necessary? Unless you're exercising your tolerance for discomfort. Which you should be doing. Which you should at all times. That's what you're saying. Affirmative. No, okay. Me and Dave Burke, we don't agree with this.

So you put on a regular hoodie or heavy or even a medium hoodie after what? Five minutes, six minutes. We worked out earlier today, whatever. That heat is too hot. So thick hoodie, too hot. No hoodie too cold. Boom, light hoodie, perfect. Because you don't know about that perfection, you know,

dichotomy, man, you know, the zone, balance the zones. Anyway, light hoodie, this one equals freedom. That's the freedom part. Boom, how about that? Women's stuff as well, by the way. Women's T-shirts, specifically for the ladies and tank tops. Boom. Rashguards are kind of for everybody, so boom.

You can also subscribe to this podcast. Sure. iTunes, Google Play Stitcher. Leave reviews so I can read them and laugh because you guys are really good at writing Cool reviews that crack me up so thank you for that Stitcher is well by the way don't forget about the YouTube you can subscribe to YouTube too and that's what you'll see echo Charles's videos sure we'll say that's we'll say you've got some skills in life That's things one of your paramount skills making cool videos cool agree or disagree

Yeah Sure that's not good. I'm putting you on the spot to not be humble so I won't do that echo makes good videos And they're on YouTube and you subscribe to the channel talk a podcast YouTube channel. Yeah, there you go very easy to find for basic very Subscribable mm-hmm, yeah good way to support for sure also some excerpts on there You know little lessons from this podcast directly and you know so sometimes you don't want to listen to let's say you listen to let's say you to podcast number 1001 and you're like hey there's some good stuff in there but should I listen to the whole you know however many hours of the podcast for that one lesson that I want to kind of revisit should you do that hmm some of us don't

have that kind of time so I'm gonna put out some excerpts from all the podcasts most of them so yeah go on there subscribe get a little alert when we put one up that's the one you want to listen to boom listen to it good way to support to by the way also on it at dot com slash chaco this is where I get all my kettlebells I won't say all my socks but a lot of socks that's where I get them from I know it sounds weird but man it's one of those things sometimes you appreciate the socks you're wearing especially when you're going through the airport TSA boom you get to take off your shoes boom hit them with the on it socks anyway

fitness gear mainly I think that's that's what I go and for the information too by the way like kettlebells when I started kettlebells I heard good things you know I start the kettlebells They're kind of they're intimidating so boom going on it dot com they have all the info on there Little things about form little workouts really good good on maces too are they called battle maces just maces They're steel sticks clubs clubs that look like you know the juggling clubs but they have you can't juggle them that's the thing if you could juggle those you'd be a you'd be a complete badass yeah If you could juggle those 20-pounders, they're freaking heavy. Yeah.

And they're heavier than they sound when you say 20 pounds. Yeah, no, no, no. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. They're heavy. The only way they're 20 pounds. The only way they're even, they can even justify saying 20 pounds is when you actually put them on the scale and the number happens to say 20.

Otherwise, it's not 20 pounds. You think they were not made out of metal, but some, you know, something from outer space. If you brought them to the airport and, you know when you're checking in, you know, and you put the, your luggage on the, scale and you know you were pushing it you know that it may be over 50 pounds and you're like nervous right and then it doesn't hit 50 pounds if you got that mace you have that mace in your hand you're about to put that on the scale you know you know oh this is going over i'm paying that extra overage uh a fee that's what it feels like as far as the the mace goes anyway happens to be a good

thing to work out with but you grab that thing you're like okay what kind of workout i'm and do this boom on it dot com slash jocko look up the the workout you got it also psychological Warfare it's an album that has various tracks on it that you can play to push you through moments of weakness and we are we are formulating psychological warfare to all your excuses are lies yes work a working time working title working title but it's a pretty good title also jaco white tea there's a thing I'm a tea drinker now I don't know if you know that I'm a tea drinker now I drink tea right I think that's kind of all it takes really but there was a whole thing when I I didn't realize

I didn't know that tea drinker had like some stereotypical thing behind it yeah yeah I came on a scheme white tea people like that's really weird that you'd make tea because they think I'd I'd be making whatever mulk yeah yeah they think I'd make milk but they wouldn't think I think you don't strike me as a tea drinker yeah I didn't realize that so I guess We're changing the paradigm. And those stereotypes will not be expected to accept it anymore. Agreed. I drink tea and I'm proud.

Maybe you're changing. You're just evolving the stereotype. Maybe. Because you are a tea drinker. Oh, straight up. You've been drinking tea since day one. Not really since day one, but since I figured out. Day two?

Yeah. Day two. Yeah. There you go. Boom. Yeah. So Jocco white tea, pomegranate. All organic certified, by the way.

Because, you know, Jocco cares about that kind stuff. In the bags and in the can. Big deal. In the can. Most tea drinkers care about certified organic, I think. Yeah, like it. That's another stereotype. So GMO, tea, no good.

Yeah, no good. We don't like that. We'll not put that in my body. Yeah, you're right. Agree. You get it on Amazon. Yeah. And in fact, I think that's the only place you can get it.

Actually, well, it is the only place you can get it right now. And important fact, there's dry white tea that you put in a brew. And then there's the new thing, which is in a can. Yeah, that's how I got it. Fired up right now is people that are replacing the 12 or not the 12 but they're replacing the four Energy drinks yeah, which actually give you no energy they actually sap your energy and crush your soul and turn you into a Health disaster sure people are replacing that crap With jocco white tea. Yeah, in a can

Yeah, one day it's gonna be everywhere. That's my suspicion. Yeah, yeah, you're just gonna be and people will just be Well, you know the one that jocco white tea on you know, you don't speak You know, oh, yeah, and also available in Canada. I know a lot of Canadian folks say, where is this stuff? Why can't I get up here? So it's now available, Amazon Canada. Yeah. I'm going to put it on the store too.

Okay. And I've been working on it, you know, and we're almost there. So check back with the store, taco store. Okay. That's a good place to have it. And they can get the tea wherever. I don't care if you're in. Wherever chocolate products are sold.

That's where they're sold. Speaking of Amazon, books. I got some books. Good. Yeah. One, two are called Way of the Warrior Kid. Way of the Worry Kid from Wimpy to Warrior, right? That's the, what do you call it, after the colon in that part?

That's the subtitle, I think. Sure, there it is, Wimpy to War. And then the second one is Mark's Mission. Really clever evolution of problems to be solved in both. So now you have the ethos. Okay, so how I did it, do it is I read the first one and I just keep repeating. Two, my kids. Kids five.

My daughter, old is five. Anyway, before bedtime, boom, and then repeating. Now we've got two in the rotation, boom. So you can, they're chronological, right? Boom, that is good. Very clever, very un, what do you call it, when you assume something about somebody, and it reveals that there's, like, more to this person.

Oh, so you assumed I was not capable of writing way of the word again while I actually did write it. Very incapable. Check, check. But yeah, this is a good one. Also, the discipline equals freedom field manual. It's field manual, the best kind of manual. In my opinion, but this is like a manual for life, I think.

It's like a very basic backbone for life. I think you start there, you'll be solid. I'm always stoked when I meet someone that comes up and it's like, Proofy, manual. I'm on the path. And like, they're not kidding. They're on the path. Crack that thing open, read two pages.

Read two pages to prep mentally for the day. It will have impact. And if you want to listen to those pages, it's not available on Audubon. It's available on iTunes Amazon music Google Play as an MP3 album with tracks. That's where you can get it. Of course, you can also get extreme ownership. Extreme ownership, but you can get the hardcover book. And you can also get the audible.

That one you can get the audible version. And the audible version is Laif and I reading that book. That's who's reading it. That's who's doing the narration. And then also Laif and I have a book called The Dicotomy of Leadership, which I've talked about dichotomy all the time on this podcast. The reason I talk about it's because it's hard to, I don't even say master. It's hard to even get a grip on that dichotomy, the different dichotomies inside of leadership. And so Laf and I knew that we had to go into a more granular level of explanation of the dichotomy of leadership.

And that's what this new book is. It comes out September 24th. and also for leadership training live inside your organization whatever that organization might be check out my company Ashlawn Front leadership consulting we solve problems through leadership that's that we have one more muster in 2018 the muster is a leadership conference we have one more in 2018 is in San Francisco October 17th and 18th October 17th and 18th all the other ones that we've done have sold out if you want to come get your

ticket you can get it extreme ownership dot com and also for current uniformed personnel so people in the military law enforcement board patrol firefighters paramedics first responders we have a roll call number one September 21st in Dallas Texas that's also you can also register for that extreme ownership dot com that's one day focused on the Leadership environment. So it's like a muster more focused on the issues of first responders essentially yeah, but it is essentially a muster it's a mustard like shorter it's a shorter It's a shorter muster it's more focused it's a cheaper price point and it's one day There's less

Amenities right so when you come to the muster everything's kind of kind of decked out like the lunch meal is really good The dinner's great. It's like decked out. It's taken to the highest level. The roll call is like, hey, we're here to get the information out to people that need it. Yeah. People that are in the field every day, whether it's in the military, whether it's on the beat as a cop, whether it's a firefighter. You know, for people that are on the job, people in uniform that we try and support, they need this leadership training.

They asked for this leadership training. We needed to do it at a cheaper price point. Where can we save money and still get it done? There you go. That's what the roll call is. But it's the same deal as far as there's no backstage You know, you're still in the game talking to everybody the whole day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be there. No green room. And until we do see you big time at either the muster or the roll call or the immersion camp in Maine if you want to roll with us

Virtually we are all up on the interwebs on Twitter and Instagram and that you facey block echo is at echo charleston I am at jockel Willink and to those of you in uniform that wear the cloth of the nation without you this podcast and our freedom would not exist so thank you to police law enforcement firefighters paramedics border patrol other first responders thank you for keeping us safe while we Sleep and also to those in uniform. Thanks to your families for their sacrifice That is a hard job as well and to everyone else

Thanks for listening. Thanks for supporting. Thanks for moving away from the darkness and toward the light Thanks for fighting. Thanks for getting after it and most of all Thanks for living So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.