Jocko Podcast - 133: Face History so You Can Learn From It. The Horrors of Unit 731.

Episode Date: July 11, 2018

0:00:00 - Opening: Testimony Unit 731, by Hal Gold. 0:11:24 - Unit 731, By Pete Williams. 1:40:33 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:44:39 - Support.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 133 with Echo Charles and me Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. And this podcast will cover a horrific subject of history, and it is not for children or the faint of heart. So listener discretion is advised. I am a war criminal. I served in Manchuko, that phony country created by Japan. In 1992, a group of us went to China to apologize to the family members of the people we had sent to Unit 731. One woman, now about 60, was the grandchild of one of the victims.

She told us our grandfather was killed by unit 731 in experiments He was killed because the Ken Pitae sent him if you hadn't sent him he would have lived You are killers just like those doctors We prostrated ourselves an apology and she kept pressing the fact home that we were partners in crime as guilty as the doctors of unit 731 and it's true It is just as she said. Apologizing does not erase the crime. We were the aggressors. Most of the Japanese participants in the war were aggressors.

Orders came from above, orders from the emperor. And people were killed because it couldn't be helped. According to international convention, those who kill in combat are not criminals. The 3,000 people killed. by unit 731 were all sent there by the Ken Patai or the police the American Navy was attacked at Pearl Harbor and the Japanese thought it was a victorious strike yet within two years America had built up its naval strength again America is a machine society bacteriological warfare does not rely on machines so Ishi's idea was to kill the attacking

Russians with disease once killed troops are not rebuilt like machinery the Japanese army promised Chinese children money for bringing in rats but later gave them a pencil for every rat the end purpose of all this effort was war in war the side who kills more people wins bacteria can kill on a large scale so ishi pressed this forward and that is testimony from a kentipai officer which was kind of like a secret police that served in Japan leading up to and during World War II and this is a part of history that I don't really want to talk about no one does but of course to ignore it

To think that if we pretend it didn't happen, that only opens up the door for it to happen again. So this is the story of Unit 731, an arm of the Japanese Imperial Army, that along with some other associated units, they developed, tested, and employed chemical and biological warfare weapons. and there's two books that I reviewed and will be referring to during this podcast. One is Unit 731 by Pete Williams and David Wallace, and the other is Unit 731 Testimony by Hal Gold. And the history and the acts that are accounted for in these books really, show what man is capable of especially on a malevolent leadership and in this case the leader that is primarily culpable for the crimes of unit 731 is the individual

referred to in that opening statement a guy named by the name of Ishi Shiro Ishi who was born June 25th 1892 the fourth son and a wealthy land-owning family. He was a smart, apparently very smart individual. He was a big tall, kind of strapping guy. Then by most accounts, he was a pretty arrogant individual as well. And he went to school to become a doctor and joined the army. And there he studied bacteriology.

and serology, which is the study of blood and pathogens in the blood. And he was also a fiercely patriotic and nationalistic individual. And what that meant in Japan at this time was a feeling of total superiority, both a cultural superiority and a racial superiority, cultural and racial superiority superiority over the rest of Asia and really over the rest of the world and he moved up through the ranks fairly quickly and he had done some traveling and of course saw what things that happened in World War I and he saw

chemical and biological warfare as a way to win wars and obviously Japan is a island nation with limited resources and so you need some some advantage and he thought the advantage that Japan could get was chemical and biological warfare and in order to really maximize that advantage he believed that these weapons needed to be tested on people he believed that human experimentation was the pathway to move ahead of the rest of the world technologically in these departments and oddly enough he gained a decent amount of clout and prestige by inventing a water filtration system that could provide clean water to soldiers on the front line which was a really

big deal and and the book the book testimony the unit 731 testimony goes into pretty good detail about the number of people that were killed in in wars back then and how many of them would die of diseases and in malnutrition from being sick from the water having diseases and and whatnot and so he developed this this filtration system that worked really well and he ended up actually taking advantage of that a little too much and he used that technology which he'd come up with to get some kickback payments from a commercial company that manufactured the filters and that kind of got him in some trouble but that trouble is overcome because he had some political connections that he had gained and he got got back on path and continue to gain rank and gain stature and with that rank and that stature that he gained he convinced his leadership to allow him to begin a highly secret program where he would make and test the biological and chemical weapons and again at this time chemical and biological weapons were very politically sensitive so this is in the mid 1930s the end of World War one had had only occurred

just prior to this really 20 years and people remembered those those wars that war and they remembered the horrors of those weapons and and that's why international law had forbidden these weapons but he she didn't care he she was there to win at any cost and because of the view of the chemical and biological weapons at this time and the political sensitivity around them he couldn't do what he wanted to do inside of japan because these weapons are dangerous first of all but again the political sensitivities around them that was okay because he had other plants and he opened his first laboratory in manchuria an area of china that was at this time under the brutal control of imperial japan and the first laboratory that he

put together was outside of a city called harbin and interestingly the unit main a level of cover meaning their their purpose wasn't made known to the world that people they advertised the unit that they put in Manchuria that it was all about water purification and they and they actually did water purification there so it was a good cover story but what was really being focused on underneath that cover was the creation of biological and chemical weapons that they could use for war and as she made progression the project expanded and now I'm going to go to the book unit 731 by Peter Williams and David Wallace here we go in a few

short years Ishi's project had hurtled from relative obscurity to one of top secret and national importance it took two years to the establishment's 150 or so buildings which included accommodation for thousands of people a railway siding an incinerator and powerhouse with tall cooling towers an animal house and airfield a large administration building an exercise yard and a strange forbidding square-shaped building known as roe block R-O the Japanese character row is square in shape hence the name of the building although roe block looked square from the outside hidden from view in the center were two other buildings known as blocks seven and eight roll block was the center of bacteria production and disease research block seven and eight had a more sinister purpose unit seven thirty one's bacteriological research division was divided into more than a dozen squads each investigating the warfare possibility of a wide

variety of diseases plague anthrax dysentery typhoid para typhoid cholera and many other exotic and unknown diseases were studied every conceivable facility was given to unit 731 so that i think that's important because they they were getting a lot of money this wasn't like a little rogue project that wasn't being supported as a matter of fact here so too were luxuries lavished on the lifestyle of Ishi's researchers and workers in the remote Manchurian plane at Ping Fan a whole biological township grew up it was known as togo village so around this unit 731 there's a whole village that got created and they were all living the good life by the way while Japan is not living the rest of Japan is you know out getting ready to go to war or at

war in various parts of the world and living lean the here they're living large Back to the book, Togo villagers had plentiful supplies of the best foods at times when people in Tokyo were starving. Ping Fan was centrally heated against the bitter sub-zero temperatures of the Mancharian winter. Naturally, it had the best sanitation, including even western-style laboratories. So he took care of his people. And his people, and he were getting taken care of. Building a bacterial weapon, Ishi found out, was not an easy. task he and his researchers faced a myriad of problems what kind of microorganisms

would make a effective biological warfare agent should it have a lethal or incapacitating effect could it be produced in quantity sufficient for wartime employment could these living organisms be kept alive through storage and shipment to their ultimate employment on the battlefield what type of munition would be needed to deliver the agent to the target what were the technical and military characteristics of such weapon so he started from ground zero trying to figure all this out he approached the problem by looking for weapons that could be delivered from altitude by aircraft

causing massive outbreaks of epidemics ever since his trip to Europe plague had fascinated he and I talked about his travel and this is they're talking a little bit about that here he knew it would make a deadly weapon if it could be harnessed it is highly infectious with an incubation period of three to four days sometimes up to a week the onset is abrupt with chills high fever and extreme weakness the eyes redden the face becomes congested and the tongue coated victims can become maniacally delirious and death may be rapid sometimes within one day compared with some bacterial pathogens plague is only moderately infectious but more virulent strains can be cultivated plague could create

casualties often out of all purported portion to the number of bacteria disseminated Ishi deduced therefore that it would make an efficient weapon set about preparing the most dangerous strains and at some point on this podcast we'll talk about the black plague Which is An epidemic that was insane in Europe But when you when you when you have any knowledge about the black plague and you read about someone that's looking at it saying hey, this looks like a good idea You realize that this is just

a sick sadistic person plague had another advantage for ishi its origins could be concealed Science had not then provided a satisfactory answer to the age-old question of why where for how long and how badly a plague epidemic broke out So he he's thought this is great we can cover it up a plague hits our enemy and we you know we don't know where it came from So they are producing this they begin to produce this so large was the production plant that in the heyday of unit 731 it had the potential for creating sufficient bacteria to kill the world's population several times over now that ishi could produce plague and other virulent bacteria insufficient quantities for warfare his next task was to discover how he could

deliver his deadly microbes to the enemy and obviously I'm not reading this entire book and and there's more detail about the process of getting to breed these bacteria once they figured out how to breed it and now we got to figure out how to deliver it how are we going to attack the enemy with this he tries all kinds of different things and then finally back to the book his eye had come to rest upon the humble flea as in nature so too in war this minute insect could be relied upon as the carrier of pestilence to yield vast quantities of fleas and feed them Enormous numbers of rats had to be caught and bred.

This was the job of Unit 731's Animal House run by Ishi's elder brother Mitsuo. There's like a as I was reading this there's like this whole image of I mean are there you just think about the The reputation of rats and fleas right rats and fleas are just they're the worst they're the worst right and And and it just paints this picture you just see rats and fleas and this is what they're breeding Yeah This could this is like a horror movie at Back to the book at times of peak production members of Ishi's force were required to dress in civilian clothes and go rat catching He found a method suitable for weapons use

Here's a description of the flea factory the second division had four special premises for the mass breeding of fleas in which a mixed temperature a fixed temperature of 30 degrees Celsius was maintained metal jars 30 centimeters high and 50 centimeters wide were used for the bleat breeding of fleas rice husks were poured into the jars to keep the fleas in after these preparations a few fleas were put into each jar and also a white rat for them to feed on the rat was fastened in such a way as to not hurt the fleas it's a horror movie but so they're they're going through this process of breeding fleas, breeding rats, using the rats to feed the fleas and raise the fleas so they can put these fleas into containers and they're trying out all different kind of containers and how to drop them and

how to spread them and as they're figuring all that out, they're doing other things as well and it wasn't just rats and fleas there at Unit 731. Back to the book. Hidden from the outside world at the center of Unit 731's roll block was Ishi's Secret of Secrets. So carefully was its existence kept secret that many junior members of Unit 731 had no knowledge that it was there at all. For prisoners to pass through the tunnel entrance was to start a journey of no return. Only two things were certain. Agony and death. Three of the Ishi brothers, including Takeo, Mitsuo, and of course the youngest, Shiro, worked at Ping Fain.

Takio was the prison commander. The prison's guards were second or third sons from the Ishi brothers village, Kamo. They were called the special squad, tied by bonds of peasant loyalty to their lord and master. They worshipped him. They called him the honorable Ishi, or sometimes in reverence, war god Ishi. Most were uneducated, but all were unswervingly loyal. To ensure allegiance, Ishi paid them extra allowances for their terrible. and dangerous duties the sort of money sent home for which would support whole families through

difficult times to come even pay for their brothers and sisters educations no cameo villager has ever publicly spoken even today about their former life in manchuria the village is silent the ishi family name is still revered for its kindness asked about unit 731 older residents will apprehensively reply i have nothing to say because it concerns the secrets of the honorable Shiro Ishi. Ishi based his unit in remote northern Manchuria so he could experiment on human beings. There in what was a police state, he could be given an uninterrupted supply of human guinea pigs. With the unique data gained from the human experiments, Ishi believed Japan could outstrip

the rest of the world in developing this new weapon of war. other country would have such accurate details about how epidemic spread or how to protect against them only Japan would fully master the twin fields of biological warfare offense and defense from the earliest days ishi appears to have employed human guinea pigs it was performed on prisoners who were sentenced to death at harbin prison Each prisoner was placed in a closely guarded cell while the experiments took place. After death, the bodies were burned in an electric furnace to leave no trace. By 1935, motion pictures of human experiments were customarily being shown to senior staff officers.

Occupied Manchuria and Harbin in particular was an ideal location for supply of human fodder. I should say that so it started off they would use prisoners that were sentenced to death That's that's where it started but the supply wasn't enough and it escalated from there just to just a normal people And here's where it talks about that a little bit back to the book occupied Manchuria and Harbin in particular was an ideal location for supply of human fodder Harbin a multiracial city of shifting minority groups was a nest of spies in addition Japan's occupations occupation had brought forth strong resistance from both Chinese nationalist and Chinese communists as well as indigenous Manchurians and Mongolians. There was also a large white Russian population caught in the middle between communist Russia and expansionist Japan. To maintain

control in these difficult circumstances was the job of this Japanese secret service agency called the Tokomu Kikan and the Ken Pitai they did so through brutal tactics of fear anyone who voiced opposition to the self-declared declared a paradise of Manchuko was liable to detention many never returned the Japanese Secret Service guide to the fundamental rules for interrogating war prisoners reveals that world so this is a document which I'm gonna read a couple parts of of of how you torture people their their process for torturing people number 62 sometimes depending on circumstances it is advantageous to resort to church torture torture the

infliction number 63 torture the infliction of physical suffering must be sustained and continued in such a way that there should be no other way of relief from suffering except by giving truthful information Torture is advantageous because of the speed with which it is possible with relative ease to compel persons of weak will to give truthful testimony. But there is danger that in order to relieve himself from suffering or in order to please the interrogator, the person interrogated will, on the contrary, distort the truth. In the case of a person's of strong will, torture may strengthen their will to resist and leave ill-feeling against the empire. the interrogation in relation to persons of weak will torture is usually applied in those cases when the person interrogated does not speak the truth even in the face

of evidence but there is full reason to suppose that this person will speak frankly if torture is applied it is necessary to bear in mind that the methods of torture must be such as can easily be applied as will sustain suffering without rousing feelings of pity and as will not leave either wounds or scars so let's think about that right there what they're saying is that the torture has to be so easy to apply that the person that's doing the torturer won't feel sorry for him however in cases where it's necessary to create the apprehension of death the harm caused the person interrogated can be ignored

but this must be done in such a way as to not make it possible to continue not make it impossible to continue the interrogation after the application of torture is necessary to convince the person who has undergone the torture that the torture applied to him was quite a natural measure or to take such measures as will induce him out of his sense of pride sense of honor etc not to speak about it afterwards so that's when you say hey look we tortured you and you broke and you're weak and you should be embarrassed about it number 69 nobody must know about this application of torture except the person's concerned with this under no circumstances must other prisoners know about it it is very important to take measures to prevent shrieks from being heard so they had their methodology they had their standard operating procedures to be a spy or dissident in Manchuria was to risk death by firing squad or decapitation but there was an alternative far worse death at the hands of unit 731 unsuspecting an innocent

people were also tricked into the clutches of unit 731 some were lorded by the prospect of employment young boys mothers and children even pregnant women were trapped here's a a medical orderly named Ishibashi who carried out checkups on and there's a word here marutas and you're gonna hear what marutas this is what they describe the people that are being held the prisoners inside of unit 731 they called them maruta's or maruta singular and here's what the orderly had to say about it I started to work for unit 731 at age of 18 in the special section which did the press the checkups on new prisoners we took

details of their blood type its pulse and pressure and other things prisoners were all referred to as maruta which is the Japanese word for a log of wood. Although when they arrived, they had cards each with their name, birthplace, reason for arrest, and age. We simply gave them a number. A Maruta was just a number, a piece of experimental material. They were not even regarded as human beings.

Most were between 20 and 40 years old. None were over 50. They seemed to know their fate. We did terrible things. So you can see some obvious dehumanization. They don't call them people. They call them logs. They give them a number not a name Very standard practice for dehumanization Back to the book the prison was a vision of hell Through the spy hole cut in the steel doors of each cell the plight of the chained marutas could be seen

Some had rotting limbs bits of bone protruding through the the skin blackened by necrosis others were sweating in high fever writhing in agony or moaning in pain those who suffered from respiratory infections coughed incessantly some were bloated some emaciated and others were blistered or had open wounds many of the cells were communal an infected person would be put in with healthy marutas to see how easily did diseases spread in desperation Marutas would try to practice primitive preventive medicine to escape the diseases Through these little spy holes the most act the most acute symptoms of the worst diseases in the world were coldly observed by 731's white-coated doctors

Marutas were used up at the rate of two to three per day The dichotomy between the doctor's true vocation and the need to build a medically based weapon was well and expediently expressed by an individual, probably Ishi, at the initial assembly of Unit 731. So this is a quote. Our God-given mission as doctors is to challenge all varieties of disease-causing microorganisms, to block all roads of intrusion into the human body, to annihilate all foreign matter resident in our bodies, and to devise the most expeditious treatments possible. however the research upon which we are now about to embark is the complete opposite of

these principles and may cause us some anguish as doctors nevertheless I beseech you to pursue this research based on the double medical thrill one a scientist to exert effort to probing for the truth in the natural science and research and into and discovery of the unknown world and two as a military person to successfully build a powerful military weapon against the enemy one young serologist dr. Akimoto sent from the Tokyo Imperial University to Manchuria by his professor recalled the horror of discovering the true purpose of an epidemic prevention and water supply unit and here's what he said I was very

shocked when I arrived and found out about the human experiments. Very few of those scientists had a sense of conscious. They were treated the prisoners like animals. The prisoners were the enemy. They would eventually be sentenced to death. They thought the prisoners would die an honorable death if, in the process, they contributed to the progress of medical science.

I was very frightened, although my work involved no human experiments. I wrote my resignation three or four times, but there was no way to get out I was told that if I left I might secretly be executed So yeah there and I this is covered in pretty good depth in the book. There's like a whole recruiting process to bring the best doctors and scientists from all the universities in Japan up to Manchuria to work there So these young kids are becoming doctors thinking they're gonna go out there and save people and the exact opposite happens back to the book Syphilis was studied Many female Marutas died as Unit 731 Endeavored to solve the venereal disease epidemics raging through the ranks of Imperial Japanese Army as its military hordes marauded

Around the Asian continent on one occasion a pregnant woman was deliberately infected with the disease and when her child was born Both were dissected cruel experiments were not confined confined to the row block Five hours from Pingfan by truck lay anti-proving ground. Unit 731's Education Division Chief Lieutenant Colonel Nishi took part in one experiment. Here are his comments. An experiment in which I participated was performed in infecting 10 Chinese war prisoners with gas gang green. The object of the experiment was to ascertain whether it was possible to infect people with gas gang green. at a temperature of 20 degrees Celsius below zero.

This experiment was performed in the following way. Ten Chinese war prisoners were tied to stakes at a distance of 10 to 20 meters from a shrapnel bomb that was charged with gas gang green. To prevent the men from being killed outright, their heads and backs were protected with a special metal shield and thick quilted blankets, but their legs and buttocks were left unprotected. The bomb was exploded by means of an electric switch and the shrapnel bearing gas gang green germs scattered all over the spot where the experimentees were bound All the experimentees were wounded in the legs or buttocks and seven days later they died in great torment Miraculously some Marudas survived all infection experiments developing remarkable immunities but their fate was always the same. Unit 731 had many other uses for human fodder.

So they talk about this in the book, how some people would develop immunity. Some guys were just super tough, just tough. And in fact, there's one where they talk about they finally kill this guy after experiment. He was a 65-year-old guy. He was just tough. He survived all these different infections, all these different diseases, and they finally When they kill him, they open him up.

They dissect him and they see that he's got the organs of a 25-year-old or something. But it didn't matter. Even if you were resistant to diseases, they had other experiments to do. The education chief, Nishi, had some other recollections about some of those other experiments. Back to the book, with temperatures below negative 20 degrees Celsius, people were brought out from the detachment's prison into the open. their arms were bared and made to freeze with the help of an artificial current of air this was done until their frozen arms when struck with a short stick emitted a sound resembling that which a board gives out when it is struck a film was made on this

subject too here's another account of these so they were they were trying to figure out things about frostbite frostbite and what people could take because they were going to be fighting up in the steps of Manchuria and Russia they thought they'd be fighting there so they had to figure out do experiments to figure out how to heal frostbite once it happened and how much cold someone could take here's a printer that worked there and here's a account of what he witnessed two naked men were put in an area 40 to 50 degrees below zero and researchers filmed the whole process until they died they suffered such agony they were digging their nails into each other's flesh this was military life you

couldn't say I want to do this or that in war however good or bad the Japanese way is to obey a superior it was the same as if the order came from the emperor sometimes there were no anesthetics they screamed and screamed but we didn't guard the logs as human beings they were lumps of meat on a chopping block the Japanese way is to obey a superior I talk about that all the time you got a question you've got a question continuing detachment 731 had a sister unit it was called the 716 chemical warfare unit tests were carried out in a large cloud chamber the size of a telephone box made of

thick steel it had an agitator in the ceiling connected by large pipes to a gas producing machine Marudas were put in a truck tied to a pole and pushed inside some naked some in full army uniform and some in gas masks 731 and 516 researchers watched them gasp and convulsed to their deaths through the chambers reinforced glass window a young mother and her baby were even put to death in this chamber. She desperately tried to protect her child from the fumes by covering her it with her body. She died lying on top of her child. Here's another account from a medical orderly about other experiments beyond cold and beyond chemical and beyond biological. Here we get to malnutrition. I saw malnutrition experiments they were conducted by the project team under the technician Yoshimura he was a

civilian member of unit 731 the purpose of the experiments I believe was to find out how long a human being could survive with just water and biscuits two marudas were used for this experiment they continuously circled a prescribed course within the grounds of the unit carrying approximately a 20 kilogram sandbag on their backs one succumbed before the other but they both ultimately died the duration of the experiment was about two months they only received army biscuits to eat and water to drink so that they would not have been able to survive for very long they weren't allowed a lot of sleep either and here's one of the major generals Kawashima And he talks about the fate of some of the Marutis.

From 500 to 600 prisoners were consigned to Detachment 731 annually. If a prisoner survived the inoculation of lethal bacteria, this did not save him from a repetition of the experiments, which continued until death from the infection supervened. The infected people were given medical treatment in order to test various methods of cure. They were fed normally and after they had fully recovered were used for the next experiment But infected with a different kind of germ at any rate No one ever left this factory alive Following anatomical study the bodies of the dead were burned in the detachment's incinerator So as I said there's even if you're just tough as nails

They're just gonna give you a dead different disease or more disease and all pretty horrible and now it gets worse back to the book perhaps the greatest horror of unit 731 was vivisection unit 731 had two teams of pathologists one headed by dr. Akamoto the other by doctor Ishikawa an anatomical study performed by these squads was not always confined to the dead pathology squad assistant Kirum Zawa saw vivisections unit 731 did work on living human bodies he said to do this work our sentiments were suppressed so this is a whole new level we're actually dissecting or vivisecting people that are alive back to the book some doctors are

said to have come all the way from Japan just to see such a dissection laboratory assistants got extra pay called the chemical weapons allowance for wielding the scapple during this dreadful work blood is said often to have spurted all over the ceiling of the dissection room as certain incisions were made limbs of the dying marrude would flex and jerk involuntarily as the scalpel entered particular parts of the brain organs would twitch vigorously after they were thrown into jars of formalin for preservation Not only were anesthetics researched but also bizarre surgical experiments connecting different parts of the body are reported to have been performed so yeah this is this is a horror movie that's actually happening you got selling different parts of the body together this is just a horror movie except this is not a movie and

the people that are being referred to as marudas right now are people back to the book the world will probably never learn of all the grisly experiments that took place at unit 731 among them were pressure experiments similar to those carried out by dr racher at dachau concentration camp presumably done on behalf of the Japanese Air Force it was an extremely painful method of killing individual placed in the unit 731 pressure chamber would suffer terrible agony as their eyes first popped out of their sockets as the eye membrane ruptured and later as blood forced its way out through pores in the skin Marudas had their blood siphoned off and replaced with horse blood in plasma experiments it was said that a number of these poor men women and

children who became marutas were mummified alive in total dehydration experiments they sweated to death under the heat of hot dry fans at death their corpses weighed only one-fifth normal body weight others were electrocuted boiled alive killed in giant centrifuges or died from prolonged exposure to X-rays and all some 3,000 are said to have been murdered some were just killed off when there was an excess of supply They were killed like animals in a in an abitur Every bit of their bodies mercilessly mercilessly used up in the name of the terrible medicine of military science now as

Ishi went on with these experiments he was he got worried about something And this is what he got worried about back to the book. There was a small but crucial chance that some of his weapons might not work on American or Anglo-Saxon racial groups. In 1943, researcher Utsumi was sent on trips to Inner Mongolia to study the immunities of Mongolians and other races. Another had already been sent to a place called Mukdin. So Mukdin's another prison camp. So he got concerned that as he did these experiments. that some diseases affect different races differently and there was some chance that oh we've we'd use this type of

bacteria against an Anglo-Saxon or a white person it might not work So we got to we got to figure that one out well the Japanese had captured Americans and Brits and Australians so here we're gonna hear a little bit about the prisoners in Mukden Okay, said is another prison camp back to the book Warren W. Welchel Known more familiarly as Pappy came from Tulsa, Oklahoma, was a master sergeant with the U.S. 200th Coast Artillery Anti-Aircraft Regiment. On April 9th, 1942, baton fell. On May 6th, so did Corregador. Pappy Welchell and 88,000 other Americans in Filipinos were captured.

Pappy remembers it was the beginning of one of the most dehumanizing experiences ever perpetrated. on humans welchell and his fellow prisoners had to endure the familiar ill-treatment the Japanese met it out to prisoners of war a proceeding that is understandable only a feud from the Japanese standpoint that to die in battle is honorable but to surrender is to be shamed but is also dehumanizing because unknown to him he was to become a human guinea pig in Japan's experimental program as they sought to build weapons of biological warfare. Welchel was to spend three years of his life

as one of the 1,485 American and British and Australian and New Zealand prisoners of war who were herded into a special prison camp in Manchuria at Mukden. And of course, they hiked there. Back to the book, the route, the 1,000 American prisoners took to Mukden began with what became known as the Baton Death March.

We were subjected to beatings, killings, forced marches during the heat of the day. We were deprived of food, water, and any medical attention whatsoever. Pappy Welchell remembered. They were penned in two camps in the Philippines. Hundreds more died, both in the camp and from suffocation as more than 100 crammed into box cars on the journey from one camp to another. Then in October of 1942, about a thousand U.S. troops had been singled out, marched to Manila the capital of the Philippines they went aboard the Japanese vessel Tertori Maru then here's a quote from the moment we went aboard that

hell ship they were experimenting on us they threw us aboard to see how much we could stand and how many of us died they took us from the tropics to a bitterly cold climate and that took its toll on us they gave us few crackers and little rice to eat and I feel that it was a systematic way of beginning to test us to found out to find out how much the Americans and the British and Australians could endure. And that was said by Greg Rodriguez, Sr. now retired from his career as a foreman in Henrietta, Oklahoma. Rodriguez was a private in 59 Coastal Terli Corps U.S. Army.

He survived the journey to Mukden and three years in the camp itself. now there's another guy named Robert Petey who was a senior British officer and he was also in prison in Mukden and he kept a daily diary or at least he tried to keep a daily diary and he kept it in code form but here's some here's some of his entries into his journal 19 April 43 another Japanese medical investigation started today as apparently the findings of the first did not meet with approval 24 May diarrhea is increasing 25 May waiting for medicine for diarrhea which was not forthcoming men were ordered to exercise by playing baseball 26 May diagnosis of diarrhea consists of running the men around the parade ground I saw some of them with bare feet those who do not mess their pants or drop from exhaustion are reckoned to be liars and are told to go back a protest has been made and a change is expected in both methods and personnel four June third Japanese medical investigation started five June anti-discentry inoculation one half cc including Flesher y 8 June diarrhea still steadily increasing 13 June second anti-discentary shot one

c six August there are now 208 dead so as they're doing these experiments and they've got these dead bodies of American Australian British soldiers they're still trying to utilize them when they're dead to try and learn from them back to the book one morning early in 1943 Frank James was assigned to burial detail this is of some of those bodies I was pretty sick myself, but I wouldn't go to the hospital because nobody that went in ever came out. I went round to the hut, and there must have been, I reckon, 340 bodies stacked there. Each body had a tag attached to its toe.

There were two or three men who I took to be Japanese doctors there. They were all masked 100%. All the time they were there, their faces were covered. another fellow and I were told to lift up the bodies and put them on the autopsy tables Then they began to cut them open they went deep into the stomach the bile the small intestine and they took what looked like pancreas and lungs They also operated on the heads and took part of the brain So just a horror a horror show for the prisoners The end of their incarceration in

Munkin was quite matter-of-fact and again this is a fast forward and it also skips ahead a little bit talking about how how the war ended and what that was like after days of rumor major Pedy's diary records for August 16th 1945 a six men were brought into camp this evening and from the fact that they were smoking more than the regulation distance from an ashtray we knew they were not prisoners of war after an unusually good supper all prisoners were released from the guardhouse and he continues on this is on 20 August at about 7 p.m. a small party of Russian officers arrived and announced that we are now free the Russian officer in charge said here they are do what you like with them cut

their throats or shoot them it's all the same to me but this was translated diplomatically as he says he hands them over to you. For Major Petey and the hundreds who had survived the privations of Mukden, the victory was theirs in every sense. They had no need they decided to seek reprisals. It would have been, said the major, beneath our dignity. It would have reduced us to their level. After all, they had to live the rest of their lives with what they'd done.

so the horror show ends and these these soldiers that have been tortured and killed murdered they decide they're not even going to take revenge because they don't want to lower themselves to that level that's an amazing but like I said that had skipped the head the war still wasn't over and here we go back to the book is she expected the final and decisive battle would take place between June and September, 1945, when America attempted to land on Japan proper. Okinawa, Japan's own island bastion fell in June the month before Germany had surrendered. Russia urged by Britain and America at Yalta turned their attention to Manchuria. For forces swelled on both sides of the Soviet-Manchurian border as millions

of troops remained at standoff point. Tanaka's flea factory, with the war, and the warrants, expanded and given more staff with 4,500 flea breeding machines in operation a hundred million insects could be produced every few days Ishi planned to breed 300 kilograms approximately one billion plague fleas in the run-up to war special training courses in flea breeding were set up at ping fein in June and subunit members ordered back afterwards to establish their own production bases to propagate plague cultures and to feed the fleas rats were needed in their thousands

Yamada ordered every land unit of the Kuantang army to trap rats Karasawa's new conveyor system and again I'm throwing names in here that are explained with a lot more detail in the book that's why you buy the book and read the book so you can get the full picture Karasawa's new conveyor system was working round the clock producing plague typhoid cholera and anthra and anthra organisms which were sufficient if correctly dispersed to infect half the planet between midnight and 1 a.m. on the morning of August 9th after Hiroshima had been devastated by the atomic bomb the Soviet army swept across the border into

Manchuria and Korea with a massive force of 1.5 million men 5,500 tanks and 5,000 airplanes the Kuomtong army was thrown into panic confusion broke loose that day or the day after Yamada ordered the destruction of unit 731 and 100 again 731 we've been talking about 100 was another one of these parallel units that was doing the same type of stuff a nearby sapper unit was ordered to blow up ping fans main headquarters the units personnel were to destroy all evidence and be evacuated to sell Seoul in Korea a second bomb was yet to be dropped on Nagasaki so here the war is obviously turning we dropped the bomb and they go to cover

tracks they've completely destroy everything destroy the buildings destroy all the records destroy everything and when I say everything I mean everything here we go back to the book at ping fan Marutas were the first to be destroyed members of 516 chemical warfare unit gas the Marudas by throwing flasks of toxic chemicals into their cells 600 local Manchurian and Chinese laborers who worked at the Yagasawa plant disease farm and elsewhere at Ping Fang were machine gunned. Potassium cyanide poison was also put into the Marouda's breakfast food. So they're just trying to like I said destroy everything and make it like it didn't happen. And as they wrap this up, the rest of Unit 731 expecting a few left behind for final clearing up

assembled on the 13th and 14th at the shunting yard. Ishi made a formal speech. extolling the memory of Unit 731 and its diligent research as if in mockery of him it was interrupted by the sound of a prison exploding members were issued vials of poison Ishi had originally wished every branch member in all families in Togo village to commit suicide but this proposal was met met the violent disagreement of Major General Kikuchi 731 One's research chief nonetheless some took their lives without orders from Ishi So he thought they should all kill themselves got a little resistance there

I would I would have thought that Kikuchi Perhaps would have provided more resistance Against the behavior that they were occurring to not just to you just want to protect himself here at the end Hey, I'm not gonna question anything as long as it doesn't affect me right? That's what that is I On August 15th, the emperor broadcast Japan's defeat and surrender. It had never occurred to Ishi that Japan might give in. He had to confirm the broadcast before believing it. Such was the shock that according to one account,

Ishi was seen in a listless condition, utterly crestfallen. That day in the late afternoon, Unit 731 train arrived at Hinsking. There, on the following night, Ishi made a final address to his Ernst Wild troops. He swore them to life in the shadows for the rest of their lives. In the light of the candle, held by an aide to camp, Ishi ordered them never to speak of their military past, never to take official positions in the future,

and never again to contact each other. It is a promise that some have kept to this day. The pathetic end of Japan's once mighty biological warfare effort was to let loose thousands of infected rats in the neighborhood of Ping Fan it caused a local plague epidemic which claimed many innocent lives into the summer of 1946 a unit a hundred a handful of infected horses were freed after the surrender yeah you know you hear that argument about the about the dropping of the atomic bombs and the common argument is always it would have cost massive amounts of lives on both sides Americans and Japanese because the

American the Japanese were gonna fight to the death and the Americans were gonna kill them all and so the best thing to do is like okay we drop the atomic bombs this just kind of makes that a closed deal in my mind you know you got people that are trying to got enough enough biological weaponry to infect half the world so and again jumping forward in this book get the book so that you can get the whole story but there's a massive Investigation that takes place to find out what's going on there's little leaks they they catch wind of a little bit of it but not a lot of it And at one point they're interrogating Ishi and here's Ishi

Ishi she denied any involvement our work was to protect soldiers he said did anyone else concern themselves with biological warfare against crop plants? I do not know replied Ishi His interrogator made no effort to pursue the matter Thompson a veterinarian by training turned the questions of biological warfare against animals. We did not do any experiments on large animals, said Ishi. We used small animals as test animals besides we had no veterinarians. What field tests were made with the plague organism? He asked.

Due to the danger of it, there were no field experiments with that organism. There were great many field mice in Manchuria, and it would have been dangerous to conduct field experiments with plague because the field mice would very easily carry the organisms and start an epidemic. We conducted the experiments with plague in the laboratory, said Ishi. What kind of experiments? Thompson inquired. We put rats in cages inside the room and sprayed the whole room with plague bacteria. This was to determine how the rats became infected, whether through the eyes, nose, mouth, or through the skin.

What did you find out? The test results were not too favorable. We usually got 10% infection. By which way? That was the total, said Ishi. misunderstanding the question what route was most effective Thompson repeated through the nose said Ishi also through an open wound so they're interrogating he's being pretty he's lying he's covering up but there's there's a twist that we're gonna see unfold here and I'll explain it a little bit so it makes sense as it comes forth the twist in this story is that the cold war was about to start the cold war was

starting and America you know these experiments that had taken place and knowledge had been gained through this through these evil experiments well America looked at the knowledge and recognized or saw that there could be knowledge that they didn't that we didn't have that America didn't have and and decided let's try and get this knowledge now one of the problems is and again this is going to unfold but I'll give a brief synopsis of it one of the problems is if you charge someone with war crimes and you put them on trial well you've got to say what they're on what the war crimes are that they committed and if you say that the war crimes were committed were these experiments with chemical and biological weapons then people are going to know what the results of the experiments were and that means the knowledge is going to be out there and the knowledge could fall into the hands of people that we were now looking to be facing in another war

Which end up being the cold war luckily not a full war So that's how this that's how this story continues to unfold back to the book There's no question that Ishi as an as an individual and many of his associates were guilty of serious war crimes as a lieutenant general Ishi on on ishi undoubtedly possessed sufficient high military rank to be classified as a class a war crime a war crime He was the top of the tree in his own field. His actions as the head of Unit 731 qualified him as a criminal. On many accounts, not only was biological warfare considered extra legal by most countries,

but Ishi was also guilty of outrageous conventional war crimes. He had carried out calculated human experimentations on prisoners of war, a conventional war crime that had long been prescribed in the manuals of military law of every human. major power he'd carried out similar research against innocent civilians clearly a crime against humanity he she had taken his biological weapon out of the research laboratory and used it in the field he had sought autonomy and independence of action for his biological warfare forces throughout the war zones he had done nothing to restrain the conduct of his subordinates so this guy is as guilty as

they come they there was other other events that took place that were equally bad and here we go some tribunals were held in China the Philippines and the Pacific Islands but most a total of 314 cases were held at Yokohama Japan at these courts a sufficient number of medical atrocity cases were heard for them to be considered as a special category the most well-known and worst case presented by legal section at Yokohama concerned the fate of captured American flyers held by the Japanese Western Army in Kyushu after April 1945.

The appalling experiments to which they had been subjected included vivisection and the substitution of seawater for their blood. For this gross act of barbarism on August 27, 1948, the nine Japanese involved were convicted and sentenced either to be hanged or to serve life imprisonment. one professor Ishiyama of Kishu University committed suicide in prison so clearly they had the attitude of like we're gonna get some of these guys that conducted experiments and that's exactly what should have should happen and this was a much smaller number of people that were tortured and killed and used this human experience than what was used it at 731

continuing on cold war tensions had been increasing throughout 1946 the desire to meet out stern justice at the Tokyo trial was increasingly subsumed if found in conflict with the interests of national security Japan was in the front line so to now was biological warfare on August 24th 1946 Washington cabled MacArthur ordering him to protect intelligence especially scientific which might jeopardize America's national security. It read, under present circumstances, intelligence relating to research and development

in the field of science and war material should not be disclosed to nations other than the British Commonwealth. Biological warfare intelligence seems by this time to have become much too sensitive to be brought into the glare of a massive international trial. Throughout 1946, both Russia and America appear to have been reluctant to reveal

their hands in Japan America appears to have taken some extra precautions to prevent information from falling into Soviet hands so you can see how it's unfolding one of these again one of these senior officers that has talked about deeply in the book but I didn't discuss too too much his name was NATO and here's a quote from NATO we want to cooperate and we owe it to the general headquarters but we have a responsibility to our friends we took an oath never to divulge information on human experiments we are afraid some of us will be prosecuted as war criminals we do not know how much others will be willing to give us if you can give us

documentary immunity probably we can get everything the subordinates not the section chiefs know all the details if we contact someone who is a communist he is liable to tell the Russians the Japanese were given insurances that war crimes would not be involved. MacArthur sent a five again fast forward from MacArthur sent a five-part radio message to Washington showing the extent of his knowledge it's clear from part five they have the whole the whole message in the book it is clear from part five of the message that MacArthur favored gaining the biological warfare technical

information by offering the assurances that data would not be employed at war crimes trials and here's Ishi I will not reveal the information to the Russians. You can see how this is unfold. This is like one of those horrible when a crime gets committed and for whatever little technicality people are getting off. That's exactly what's going on

and you can hear it unfolding. And I mean, does national security trump the, it's almost like an ego move, right? It's almost like an ego move you're gonna make these guys pay. It's also a morality move and it's a justice.

I guess it's beyond ego and beyond morale. It's justice. These guys were criminals. These guys did heinous. things to other human beings and they should pay and as as strong as that case is it didn't seem to hold up to the case of national security we want to have this information not that we were going to use it but we better have it better to have it and not need it than need and not have it's better to have it yourself and not let

your enemy have it which is the Russians at this point yeah so that's where the decisions getting made yeah so you got to kind of consider what's more important like this justice Yeah, that's exactly the question. And the answer is pretty clear what the answer is. It's safety, right? I mean, security is more important. National security versus justice.

Yeah, you can get all the justice you want, but that it's going to create some serious problems in the future. It's kind of like, hmm, you know, is it worth it? Yeah. And here's Ishi talking some more. I cannot give detailed technical data. All the records were destroyed. I never did know many details, and I have forgotten what I knew.

I can give you general results I've never heard of Anta that's another base that they used Until I returned to Pingfan in 1945 I did not visit the location I am responsible for all that went on at Pingfan I am willing to shoulder all responsibility Neither my superiors or my subordinates

Had anything to do with issuing instructions for experiments If you ask me specific questions I can tell you general results I am wholly responsible for Pingfan I do not want to see any of my subordinates subordinates or superiors get in trouble for what occurred if you will give me documentary immunity for myself superiors subordinates and subordinates I can get you all the information for you so he's he's making a deal he's making a deal saying look I'm responsible for everything and what he's doing is saying look I'm responsible for

everything and if you give me immunity I'll get you all the information you want he's actually a good move it's a good move on his part because he says I'm for everything even if they say no we don't take a deal and we're gonna hang you he's still he's still trying to protect of many as many of his people as he can up and down the chain of command The advisability of complying with Ishi's bargain war crimes immunity in written form in exchange for scientific data Was to occupy some of Washington's most senior minds throughout the summer of 1947 Ishi continued Masuda Keneko and NATO whom you see

You say you know can give you a lot of information. I would like to be hired by the United States as a biological warfare expert. In preparation for the war with Russia, I can give you the advantage of my 20 years' research and experience. I have given a great deal of thought to tactical problems in the defense against biological warfare. I have made studies on the best agents to be employed in various regions and in cold climates. I can write volume of biological warfare, including the little thought of strategic and tactical

Employment. God, this guy was a scumbag. So it continues. Back to the book, in an open admission about human experimentation, allegations about the use of biological warfare, even hints about the connection between Unit 731 and a member of the Japanese imperial family, were all contained in the files of legal sections case 330 by the middle of 1947. How would this come about, and why was nothing being done about the files contents? So this is getting shut down. That's what's happening. Now here's the sort of the more official opinion.

Back to the book, On balance, the subcommittee felt it was desirable to avoid a war crimes prosecution. And here's what they said. Since it is believed that the USSR possesses only a small portion of this technical information,

and since any war crimes trial would completely reveal such data to all nations, it is felt that such publicity must be avoided in interests of defense and the security of the United States. It is believed also that war crimes prosecution of Ishi and his associates would serve to stop the flow of much additional information of a technical and scientific nature. It is felt that the use of this information as a basis for war crimes evidence would be a grave

detriment to Japanese cooperation with the United States' occupation forces in Japan. Here the decisions getting made and that's the way it went and in the end going back to the book no member of unit 731 was called before any British or American military tribunal to account for war crimes none of them well actually not by any British or Americans because the Russians they still went after them and they and when they went after them and they got some of them They made America look bad and they had a big trial and here's the the state council the state council's name was Smirnoff and here we go back to the book smirnoff spelled out a message intended for the ears of an audience thousands of miles from the courtroom These men Ishi and the rest now he she wasn't a part of this trial but Ishi and the rest enjoy the protection of those reactionary forces in the imperialist camp who are themselves dreaming of a time

when they will be able to hurl upon mankind loads of TNT atomic bombs and lethal bacteria the accused received the sentences as follows and then they listed these guys that various soldiers and civilians that served in some of these biological warfare experimentation centers they got 25 years 20 years 18 years 15 years 12 years 10 years 10 years two years three years but again those sentences don't include Ishi or the other main players at unit 731 because they got kind of protected not even kind of they got protected by America in exchange for their information sort of in response to everything that was going on there on December 27th 1941 the following story appeared in the New York Times

Dateline Tokyo. No knowledge, MacArthur says. General Douglas MacArthur's headquarters said today there were no known cases in which Japanese used American prisoners in German warfare experiments. The headquarters added that the Japanese had done some experiments with animals, but that there was no evidence they had ever used human beings. As far as it is known here, no Americans held prisoner by the Japanese that Mukden ever accused their captors of having used them as guinea pigs, in biological warfare tests so that's all not true that's all not true back to the book to this day Russia has allowed itself to bask in feelings of more moral superiority over America and not without some justification in respect of the way

it brought its unit 731 criminals to justice so just that's the way that's the way it flushed out now This you might think that's a little disturbing this is equally disturbing this is Just horrible back to the book after the war most of the scientists of unit 731 Prospered much as explained by the clear complicity on the part of the United States authorities in the war crimes of unit 731 The detachment's civilian researchers and other associated scientists were quite free to return to academic and it goes through this lit this multiple page list of of guys that went on to work at the research Institute for Natural Resources chief and another guy was

chief research section at a pharmaceutical company dr. Ishiawa once a pathologist at unit 731 who had brought home within thousands of human pathological samples became a professor at at university in 1944 a position he held throughout the 1960s and 70s he eventually became president of the university's medical school the local newspaper once planned to award him with a medal for his contribution to society but after students who knew of his wartime record objected the ward was canceled so these guys carried on another guy professor of show a university pharmacological

another professor of bacteriologically at Kyoto University the list goes on on and on doctor hissato Yoshimura who directed Unit 731's frostbite experiments literally freezing people to death became a faculty member at the Kyoto prefectural medical college in the 1950s and later it's president and And like I said, that list goes on and on and on. And of course, we still haven't heard about Ishi yet, the mastermind behind this whole thing. Here we go back to the book. Ishi inherited much of the family's property in Camo Village.

Because if you remember, Camo Village is where they bring all these prison guards from their home village so that they'd get the complete loyalty from him. So he inherited much of the property's family, the family property in Camo Village. His two elder brothers, Takeo and Mitsuo, were childless, unlike Shiro, who fathered six children. Takeo, Unit 731, Special Prison Squad Leader, eventually died of liver cancer in Kobe. The city Wenz's second wife had come. Mitsuo, who once supervised the unit's animal house, outlived his younger brother, Shiro, but was unable to work after the war and lived on money gained by selling his country property. Mutsuo, Mitsuo, and Takeo, and their eldest brother, Torreo, who had been killed in the Russo-Japanese War during Japan's Meiji period, are buried in the Ishi Family Cemetery at Kamo.

On August 17, 1958, 13 years after the end of the war, in the back room of a stonemason shop near Tama Cemetery, Tokyo, Ishi made his first and apparently only post-war appearance before assembled junior members of his former unit. He reminisced about the early days of Unit 731 in a speech reportedly still rich in xenophobia and elitism. Ishi described how his unit was to have been the salvation of Japan. A country then encircled by the West, scientifically impoverished, yet spiritual. spiritually rich he apologized for their suffering since the end of the war but urged his audience to remain proud of the memory of unit 731 and here's a little part of his what he said it was an order that we could have precious human material that the unit 731

was set for the saving of the nation National circumstances were not permitting unfortunately we did not Achieve our aims so even after all that even after all that even looking back after 13 years after the end of the war he's looking back and and still has the same mindset and That mentality is hard to understand and I want to shed a little bit of light on that mentality and Do that through some personal accounts of what happened at Unit 731 and that's from this other book It's called Unit 7301. It's called Unit 730. one testimony and let's go to this book and I think these make it pretty clear

where this mentality comes from so this account is from a captain in the Japanese Imperial Army named Kojima Keio and here we go perhaps there are some people here and and by the way most of these accounts are from an exhibition that went around Japan kind of explaining what happened and people would come to this exhibition and they would capture If someone was involved in unit 731 or someone remembered or someone had a story about it they would capture their account and that's what this book has a lot of from this Expo that this exhibition that they did I think it was in the mid 1990s that they did this exhibition So this particular person that was showed up at this exhibition He was a captain the Japanese army

His name was Kojima Takeo and here's what he said perhaps there are some people here at this unit 731 exhibition who think that this was all there was to japanese aggression at the time unit 731 was merely one segment of the dark shadow of japan's aggression and i would like to tell of my experience in this and i think this is why i pulled this one specifically because this talks about where this came from where this mentality came from that ishi had to the end we were born and raised in a society of emperorism a person's absolute responsibility above the army and government was to the emperor the emperor was a living deity the emperor's command was supreme

and controlled the entire country we were told how we must serve the emperor how we should behave toward our parents how should we should we should behave toward our teachers and how we should behave toward our siblings we were taught that Japan is a sacred country that the people of Japan are a superior race that the people of China Korea Southeast Asia and Russia were all inferior races and the superior race must govern them and by doing so we would bring them happiness this was the cause to which Japan must devote itself. He goes on again.

I'm not reading the entire thing, but you have to get the book to get these entire accounts. Soon after we went into service, we were given training to get our courage up. We were ordered to watch beheadings. Chinese were made to sit by a hole in the ground, and the seasoned soldiers would cut their heads off. Blood spurred it up from the neck into the air, and the bodies would roll into the holes. then we had bayonet practice victims had their hands tied behind them around a tree and were used as bayonet targets we had to watch this as part of our training this was a shock to me and for two or three days food would not pass through my throat but two years later I became an officer in charge of a platoon and with about 25 men under me later I became a company commander with a hundred 151 men and that meant that if I didn't build a strong platoon and a strong company I would fall behind and so I too tested the courage of the soldiers under me by using Chinese

prisoners this was normal training in the Japanese army when we were not involved in major operations we would go out into our own immediate area on continuous three-day operations to see if there were any enemy around on such occasions we stole tortured and slaughtered people the Chinese had a saying about us that Japan had a three-way complete policy burned completely killed completely and pillaged completely yet when we were doing those things we had no sense of guilt or of doing anything wrong it was for the emperor for the country so that's how they're raised and that's how you get up with someone like

Gishi that goes through all that and still remains loyal even after defeat still remains loyal to the deposed emperor and here's an army doctor named Uasa Ken this is not easy for me to speak about but it is something I must confess what I did was wrong it is also true that it was forced on me by the government but that does not reduce the size of my crime it is something that happened a long time ago, but those who are not taught about the war are ill-educated. The Japanese army went to plunder and steal materials and to kill. Japan wanted iron, coal, and provisions, and the army drove into the mountains to prosecute the war. At the time, the Japanese used derogatory terms for the Chinese, like Chinaman and Chinke,

and looked at them with contempt. When I was a child, we were told to despise the Chinese, despise the Koreans. It's all right to conquer them. We have become elite and should join with the Americans in British and conquer Asia. I hated war and killing, but around middle school and into college, I began to think that such ideas were unavoidable. People were driven into a life in which human qualities were lost. The soldier's outlet for frustration. was the brothel of the comfort women any means was resorted to in order to raise one's rank and keep up the authority of the country and in the army hospital

We practiced vivisection living persons are good for the scalpel practice So people were brought in one day soon after I started at the assignment the hospital head told us today we will have surgery practice I was startled It was an order. There was no getting out of it. Normally, we dissected people who had died of such diseases as typhoid fever, dysentery, and tuberculosis. Now we were being taken to the dissection room for a different type of exercise. Soldiers came along as observers.

Everything started with a signal from the hospital head. One Chinese had big thighs and walked slowly and calmly. He laid down and had no sign of fear, no stress on his head. face he was composed someone else used him for surgery practice I went over and pushed the other one onto the operating table I had no feeling of apology or of doing anything bad the farmer was resigned to his fate and he lowered his head and walked forward I didn't want to get my clothes dirty from him I wanted to look sharp he went down as far as the operating table but didn't want to lie down A nurse using broken Chinese told him we're using ether.

It won't hurt. So lie down. She gave me a wry smile when she said that. She had been working there for a long time. And when I happened to meet her again much later and asked her about it, she didn't remember. She was handling so many vivisections. It was routine. People who repeat evil acts.

do not remember them there is no sense of wrongdoing war means this also war is not just shooting in order for Japan to win all the Chinese were made prisoners women's bellies were cut open homes were burned if you couldn't do this then you weren't a loyal soldier of the emperor even if one despises an act one must bear it from there a person becomes accustomed to it we all received practiced it was normal to smile at this the crimes committed during our aggressive wars are forgotten gone from memory at the time they were considered right so the surgery began the man was given ether and dissected his appendix

was so small that it was like looking for a burrowing worm I had to cut and search repeatedly the blood flow was stopped nerves were cut bones were cut with a saw and a tracheotomy was performed blood and air escaped from his body the blood came foaming up practice time was two hours the man died and his body was thrown into a hole and buried that was my first crime after that it was easy eventually I dissected 14 Chinese I also saw vivisections once I saw about 40 doctors gathered There was a man bound and squatting. The guard asked the doctors, are you ready? And the prisoner was laid out without anesthetic. Two cuts were made down his belly. The victim made a few gasps. The dissection was a botch and he died soon. I saw four people dissected that way. It is said that there are that there were 20 million victims of the war in China, but only 10 to 20% of these

were killed in gunfire exchange. Most non-resisting old people, women, and children were captured and slaughtered. Prisoners of war could not be taken to the front or allowed to escape, so they were killed in the manner of the rape of Nan King. Those who were a part of it do not come forward to tell the people how it was. Why? Because the Japanese have forgotten all about it. Everybody's forgotten. They did things and got medals and they don't think they did anything worse than kicking a dog They weren't bothered because they never considered it a dreadful thing to take a scalpel and cut open a living person and this will be The last testimony that I read and this was a soldier that was attached to unit 731 Ohara Takayoshi and he said I joined the cavalry

from my home in 1939 in April of that year I was stationed in Northeast China then in March 1942 I was transferred to unit 731 I did not know anything about that unit my first duty was taking care of domesticated animals such as sheep goats horses and cows I assisted in researching the diseases that affect these animals I saw tests in which Maruta were tied to crosses in a large circle as planes flew over and dropped bacteriological bombs in the area surrounded by the crosses. Their legs were chained and their bodies tied tightly. We observed the test from a distance of about 200 meters.

I had the job of cleaning up and disinfecting after the experiments and gathering debris lying around I want people who come to this exhibition to tell their children and grandchildren that there is nothing more stupid and fearful than war I want people to tell their children and grandchildren that there is nothing more stupid and more fearful than war nothing more stupid and fearful than war a good quote to end this except for it is wrong It is wrong because as stupid and as fearful and as reprehensible as war is, there is something worse than war. And that is allowing this kind of evil to exist. As bad as war is and war is awful, war is hell.

And I have said that over and over again as have many others. but there are worse things than war things like unit 731 things like the nazi concentration camps things like the rape of nan king there are things that are worse than war and there are times when war is not only justified but it is a moral obligation and i do not say that lightly but when evil and when darkness and when malevolent and demonic spirits rise to power they must be stopped and the responsibility for that lies within all of us every day to do our best do our best to move the world away from the darkness and the demons that linger inside men's minds They move toward the light.

What is? That is all I have got for tonight. So echo Charles. I think while I decompress a little bit, if you could talk about ways for the crew here to move towards the light. Mm-hmm. I'm going to try. I know, I know.

And if you think about originally. Mm-hmm. When we started getting into these kind of podcasts that touched upon some very heavy, some very disturbing subject matter, that was where the whole sort of, let's call it extended closing to the show began. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. And I remember, like, I remember like the first time I said, you like, hey, man, you just talk. a little while I need a break over here yeah that's how we ended up with this this thing yeah but then the interesting thing people would say hey thanks for doing

that yeah because you're not the only one that needs to decompress after you hear this freaking crap yeah after you hear about this just heinous evil yeah that really happened yeah we need a little break we need a little echo Charles here to you know yeah that's that's rough where you you you know you know you know that's that's rough where you you know you go from vivisection you know and then what if you were like hey all right that's all i got for tonight yeah i'll catch you next i can't leave you like that yeah then you kind of all right you turned off you go into i don't know work or whatever whenever you let's do it go to bed no that's that came out with uh with 121 122 and 123 with louis puller

and with chesty puller louis puller and then jake shick i wasn't going to do you I could I I I I said to myself I can't do one twenty one one twenty two and one twenty two out there in the world by itself I need to Jake Shick my brother to come on and like show that you can get through that yeah you know and So this is kind of the same thing you know I just can't like walk off yeah yeah mic drop and then Yeah, hey you guys deal with it now no we're gonna deal with it together that's what we're gonna have echo Charles help us deal with that It's all come back a little bit little bit a little bit Try to kind of can't forget I mean it's you're not gonna forget that you know It's like you can't forget machetes and you can't forget the ripan-k king

So you're gonna remember but can't forget the Mili Massacre yeah the harsh I mean just it's it's it's crazy Yeah, but yeah man oh far be it from our intention to leave you with Bad feelings that last we want I I've said this before, right? We want you to remember, but not dwell. Yes. Right? I think that's important.

You know, you're dealing with loss. I mean, I talk about that a lot when you're dealing with loss. Yeah. You always want to remember the people you've lost, but you can't dwell on it. Yeah. And you always want to remember the Rapin'an King. You always want to remember machete season. You always want to remember Unit 731.

You always want to remember man search for meaning. You always want to remember Milai Masker. You want to remember those things because they're real and they happen and they can happen again if we let them. Yeah, we can't dwell on them. Because there's, there's, because you know what? We won, good one and good will win. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking.

Yeah, fully. You know how, okay, there is this movie called something about a centipede. Human centipede, maybe. You ever heard of that? Literally no possible way I've seen this movie. Yeah, you're right. I've never seen it. I've never seen it.

Okay. I've seen the, the, you know, what you go? Oh, is it just like completely like psycho-sick, disturbing? Yeah, yeah, some weird old scientist guy. So, you know, I can't help but kind of think. It's when you said this isn't a movie. This is this really happened. And that's really the hard part when you really start to think about that.

Like, just like how we're sitting here right now. What's really, what's really hard is, you know, you picture the mother in a gas chamber. with her baby and you you can't just picture a mother you can't just picture a child you have to like picture a mother and a child that you know you need to put that in you need to picture someone that you because you can't you can't make that connection be saying a mother and a child that that doesn't that doesn't bring it together for you actually have to picture someone you know yeah and their kid being for that's what you need to picture being forced because that's what those people were they were

People with people that they were people with alive and they had hopes and dreams and all those things and they got put into a gas chamber to see how long they could last without a gas mask That's what you have to picture Yeah Yeah It makes the point for sure what oh here's a moral question Okay, you know how like some of these Doctors and scientists they went on to be prosperous You know after you know after the deal

and they obviously I mean apparently some of them did some really good work where they're getting like awards and whatnot and you know what speaking of this I was thinking about this because another really dark book that we covered on here was ordinary men which ordinary men talked about the the police the the Nazi police that went from being normal guys that were middle aged hadn't been indoctrinated in the Nazi way of life as children they got kind of like swept along with the rest of the Germans And they ended up committing these heinous acts and murdering thousands and thousands of Jews. But what's interesting about that? So in that story, it's normal guys going evil. In this story, these evil guys that did evil things, they come out the other side and kind of like go normal. Right. And they, it's just. So did they, didn't they get kind of, they got forced into it though, right?

Remember? They were like, hey, hey, you got to do this or you die. They did get. Well, not really. If you remember in ordinary men, their commander actually in the beginning is like, hey, if you want to, if you don't want to do this, go home. Right. No, no, no. I mean the Japanese guys from 1731, remember?

There's definitely some guys getting forced into it. Yeah. So you here. So here's the moral question. It's like, okay, of course, you know, these guys committed crimes regardless of, you know, the surrounding circumstances. They committed these crimes. It's factual. And then they kind of get away and then they get into normal society and they don't get punished.

Right. perceived like no justice right no justice but so here's the moral questions so is it did they make up a even a little bit for their crime by doing good in the future even though they didn't get punished like did they make up for it or is it more of a crime because they got to do good stuff they got to get awards and they got to be prosperous and they should and they didn't deserve it what if you look at it from the perspective of like hey let's look at them whole so there's there's two ways I'm gonna stage this for you look at it holistically from like okay here's this person

let's look at it from my from Jocco's perspective here's this person they did these horrible things but now they've kind of got back on track and they've put their life together and and that's that's a positive thing and they've even if you can't make up for that whole crime at least you're chipping away at some of the horrible things you did and replacing them with something good and and and you You can see where people come to the conclusion that like well okay I can kind of see how that makes sense That's one way of looking at it For others too by the way not just necessary I mean it's easy to be like hey he got to do all this stuff

But if they're doing good work Scientifically and for you know medical schools and stuff like this is obviously they're teaching Yeah people they're probably you know making breakthroughs and you know discoveries in the field and stuff that's gonna help people in general you know Now here's the other way I'm gonna frame it for you Yeah is from the eyes of that mother who's in that gas chamber who's watching that switch get turned and she knows it's going to kill her and her child and there's no there's no redemption zero check good job trying to lighten up the mood over here yeah bro you well hey all right well hey let's talk

some support some support we can support we're dwelling we're dwelling we're breaking our We're breaking our own code here. We're dwelling. The code. Yes. All right. Well, let's talk about origin. I feel like we should talk about origin.

And the first thing about origin that I will talk about is the geese, the flagship product. Geese. All made in America, by the way. Rashguards as well. This is for Jiu-Jitsu, by the way, specifically. But not limited to. So, well, the geese are kind of limited to, unless you want to make a dragon weave suit. Like you're the one who recommended this by the way.

You could do judo in that in a. Yeah. I guess technically you can do karate too if you want. Technically, I mean, but they're made for jiu-jitsu. The rash guards made for jiu-jitsu. But you can use them for like cycling and bodyboarding and whatnot. Yeah. Anything that you want to protect yourself from rashes.

Not germ rashes. Like rash rashes. Actually, it does have anti-microbial stuff in it too. That's true. So it is kind of protected from me anyway Origin main.com. That's where you can get this stuff All Made in America and also Joggers

Coming from the connoisseur of comfort himself. That's me people are so in comment about that. Yes You're now becoming known. Yeah Maybe you could parlay that into like a whole thing. Yeah like a whole thing Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You could just have your own thing on No, not way testing things for comfort levels. Yeah, I'll establish a standard of comfort it'll be called the connoisseur of comfort scale see I'm saying you know how like in temperature there's like Kelvin yeah Celsius Fahrenheit yeah I'll be that for comfort the echo scale yeah echo scale of comfort what would the highest

level of comfort be would it just be one to ten you know it'd be uh oh you know it'd be uh oh you know OJ would be the highest what's that ranking OJ origin joggers oh day look at that mostly I'm over here I'm like I'm getting I'm getting I'm getting I'm Pete, for some reason, he's the kind of guy I like to just call. You know how you, like, you'll text someone. Not really. You don't really. But nowadays, we like to text people.

You know, I'm not going to bother them. I'm not going to, you know, but I don't know, for some reason I like to call Pete. So I'll be like, hey, when's the shorts coming out? Not for so we can, you know, because I want to wear them, you know, that kind of stuff. Anyway, so I'm about to call them and be like, hey, we need more colors of joggers or whatever. But here's the thing, do we? I need more colors. So I can't just be running Pete around his factory,

making new colors just for me personally. Or maybe I can. I don't know. But it would help. But yeah, they're real good joggers and t-shirts and hoodies and whatnot. Good stuff. Made in origin.

Made in America. Made in America. Yeah. Which is good on a whole bunch of different levels. Also, we got a bunch of supplements. We got joint warfare. We got krill oil. We got discipline, which is,

good to drink before you get after it mentally or physically and also we got milk yeah but back to joint warfare okay so let me get

I know you're wondering how my arm is doing I know I know I know I'll let you know so I went to Oregon the Oregon coast last week one week forgot the joint warfare I just had surgery on my bicep about six yeah six weeks ago

and you know we you know I would have fed X you some bro I know I know but yeah and thank you but you know how long it take before you noticed it I'm I'm I'm guessing the moral of the story is this didn't work out yeah so and here's the thing my surgeon is good he was good he did a good job on my arm reattached my bicep tendon to my bone drill the hole in the bone boom stick it through sew it up goosh gush gush good shh all done right um so I take joint warfare the thing feels good like I'm way ahead of schedule you know, surprisingly, because I had it done with my other arm nine years ago, blah, blah, blah.

So it's all good. I'm moving around, doing like push-ups, doing stuff that no way I could have done with my other arm last time. So I got to Oregon Coast, forget the joint warfare. I attribute it to the joint warfare how far ahead I am. So I forget the joint warfare. I'm in the Oregon Coast. I would say about two days.

And here's the thing. It didn't start like hurting or going backwards and nothing like that, but it was just this weird stiffness that sort of just like I couldn't straighten it out right away. when I wake up, you know, I can't like, you know, I kind of got to work it out. And it slowly just started to just stiffen up a little more. And here's the thing, I was way less active on it too, where, because when I do like push-ups and stuff where I'm using my elbow a lot, it'd be kind of stiff that night, you know,

then the next day you loosen up. And then it's stronger. You know, it's just one of those things, like muscles, but it's my train. So I wasn't doing that much activity and it was just general stiffness. Yeah, bro. I was like, I don't want to say it felt in flame, but it felt like, you know how, you know how like you sprain your thumb or something like that?

And it's like swollen and it's like just jammed up. You can use it, but anyway, it kind of felt like that. Functional but not optimal. Functional but not optimal. And then I come back, two days, back on the joint warfare, boom, back in the game. Full on back in the game. That's pretty cool, isn't it?

It's for real. For a hell of a thing, man. Good stuff. Glucosamine. Cochumine, good for your brain too, by the way. Yeah. Just like discipline. Yeah.

Also, Mulk, as you were saying, what up with Mulk? First of all, Mulk's awesome. Second of all, what is Mulk? It's Mulk. Everyone knows that now. I think that's pretty much going to be the new thing. And we have peanut butter, chocolate. We'll be coming out.

I want to say within a week. I want to say within a week. You're all like, Dave Burke is ready. We have peanut butter and Chuck. We have peanut butter and chocolate Coming in about a week Yeah maybe

No no no it's not even a maybe Oh straight up one week Counting down the day Okay that's good So milk protein how many how many grams protein in milk Do you know 22 per scoof So and I heard this I recently Actually I didn't read it

I saw it on a video YouTube video I know that sounds like Oh YouTube video but I think this one had credibility So So you based on wood You know hey So you need not need but But a good amount of protein is one gram per they thought it was like one point five you were trying to build muscle and all this stuff

Oh, this changed it's about yeah it's way less according to this YouTube video according to this way it's like point seven or something like this point seven I don't know I need more than that Yeah, well there you go milk get it and it tastes good real good by the way it's dessert. Yeah, anyway Is malt classified as a dessert? That's the question. Yes to me currently it's currently that's how I classified too. It is it's They would have to be proven out. I literally eat my dinner and then I'm all excited to have milk. For dessert. It is a dessert. And what I went on a trip and I haven't figured out how to travel with milk yet, which is a real bummer.

But, you know, it's scoop. You can't bring six scoops and I'm real light traveler. And so now when I go somewhere and I get whatever, I'll get a good meal. I'll get a legit meal. But I want a dessert. Yeah. I want milk. This is how you do it.

You put it in a Ziplock bag. Yeah, puff. Not in your carry-on, by the way. Then you've got to bring a shaker. Yeah. Right? There's just multiple problems that I have. I've got to figure out.

I'll figure out a system. We'll figure it out. One thing I can say is too is when I, when I, of always, if I drank protein shakes in the past, I would have to use a big shaker. And put a lot, put probably 16 ounces of milk. Oh, right. Right. One thing that's good about milk. And because that's the only way you feel satisfied with milk you can use one of the small little shakers

So this is a possibility see I'm creating ideas right now I can bring one of the small shakers bring a little bit of milk in it and then just hit it up We'll be good yeah because you don't need a big giant shaker because you don't need to drink that much milk to feel like It like you got enough dessert Like you got enough dessert yeah Anyway Back to the deal uh emerging camp yeah When is that's coming august 26 through september 2nd

This is weird, but we might it looks like we might actually Sell out at a certain point how do you sell out of the can? I didn't think we'd be able we so if you want to come Get registered because we're probably gonna end up because you can we we have we we we already bought more mats Double the mats we had the muster Yeah, it's a lot of mats but still I mean there's still a limit Yeah, so if you want to come to that come I'll be there echo will be there Dave Burke will be there Leif Babin will be there JPs on the

fence Dean Lister Dean Lister will be there sure yeah and that's good it where you know when you learn stuff at the I mean there's there you know there's there's there you're gonna learn specific things from specific people and all that stuff but don't look at it like this thing where you're gonna go and you're just gonna learn what they have to teach you you know they're gonna teach you um spider There's like 15 or 20 black belts there. Yes. So on top of that if you made it your goal if you went and you went and you said went to each one of those 15 black belts and said show me your your best move. Yeah, if you did that and he walked away that would be that would be solid. Yeah, and but you you couldn't this isn't this isn't a this isn't a hey show me your move and you spend three minutes. No, I'm talking if you if you spent like an hour Maybe even an hour and a half going over what's your best? move like I bet I could teach certain moves for an hour and a half yeah and just show

every little detail if you came to the immersion camp and that's what you did you be rocked out of there solid it'd be it'd be rough if everyone did that because you know it'd be hard yeah I don't think you could I don't think you could logistically do it but I will say this that on top of what all the instructors there and not to mention just other experienced people what they have to offer and teach you you can come and be like hey my rear naked choke needs work yeah this is how I do it hey Jocco come here this is this how I do it this is all day by the way you have this opportunity this is how I do it and show well that's that's one

thing that you could do because you can't just literally train the entire time but you can get shown moves and you can work moves oh yeah you can't just train because you'll die Well, yes, you'll die for sure. But if, but the point is there, though, where you can come and you can come to Emerging Cam, right? And it's good, again, to learn from everything that everyone has to teach. But you can go in with specific, like, questions of with your game.

Where are you still like, oh, for sure. How am I going to get better? Of course, my Jesus is going to get better in general. That's good. Of course. No. But if it's like, wait, will my mount escape get better? If you want your mount escape to get better.

Exactly. And that's what you focus on. And you can ask. Actually. Well, I'll give you this advice. If you have trouble being mounted and escaping the mount, a good person to ask about that is actually Echo Charles. You have a very good mount escape.

Oh, yes, very teachable to. That's one of your best moves is the mount escape. I will say that right now, authoritatively. Right on. Got a good mount escape. Thanks, bro. Also, shifting gear. So, yeah, anyway, but yeah, Emerging Camp August 26th to September 2nd.

OriginMane.com for all that crap that we just talked about. Yeah, origin, main.com. Exactly right. Main like the state, M-A-I-N-E. Yeah, origin, maine.com. Also, if you want to get these cool shirts that say discipline equals freedom, Jocko has a store, it's called Jock Store. So go to jocco store.com.

Anyway, that's where you can get the shirts to say discipline equals freedom, get after it. Anyway, if you want to represent with Jock gear, it's more the philosophy, it's not Jocker. gear doesn't really have your face on it or nothing oh wait yes it does have your face on it and it says good one of them maybe one two one two I don't know anyway go there jockel store com if you like something get something you want to represent in your towel also rash guards on there hoodie's on there t-shirts rash guards truckers hats you like the flex fit flex fit let's say I like um wear hats I don't wear hats which is weird because you're bald yeah my head got to get a tan

Yeah, but actually I did I went in phases not to go too deep You said you were gonna get me much more of these truckers hats and you did not yeah Wait which one just didn't equals freedom yeah or Defcore yeah they're on the way they're being embroidered right now okay actually I added like a bonus color of the I don't support bonus colors a bonus no but it's like a khaki Like a like a brown like a tan oh echo Charles going tactical All right. Anyway, jococcalder.com, a lot of good stuff. Do you get stuff on there, women's stuff on there, hats and meanings, whatnot. Some posters on there, too, by the way.

Oh, posters. No, I didn't know about that. You told me about it today. Yeah, because a lot of people, and I mean, for real, a lot of people. Like, a lot of people. Is that like seven? What are the posters of? Discipline equals freedom and the good poster.

Those are the ones that people would hit me up often, very often, be like, hey, my gym, I want a poster. I want a poster from my room. I want a poster from my office, you know, 24, but 36. posters. There's two posters on there. I'll make other other ones, but yeah, got some posters on that. Boom, represent in your jam, in your office, your home. I got one of my home first thing when you walk in. It's interesting.

A poster of our podcast? The good poster. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, so your face is kind of sort of there, you know, representing in my house. Thanks, Jocco, by the way. Also, good way to support the podcast is to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and Google Play, Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts. Interesting how there's so many of them out there now. There's a lot of podcasts no platforms. Sorry. Yeah, there's a lot of podcasts. There's a lot of podcasts and there's a lot of podcast

Yes. It's the new media. It's the new media. It's the new media voice as they say. Yeah, it is voice. It is voice. Also in addition to this podcast Mm-hmm. Which is called the jocco podcast. There's also the warrior kid podcast Which is for kids, but I promise you can get a lot out of it as an adult too. I promise you can get a lot out of it as an adult too. I Cool thing I've been doing on that. I've done it twice. I'm gonna do it more, but so it's Questions for Uncle Jake is the basic premises of it, but now I have Stories from Uncle Jake and the stories from Uncle Jake are actually from Uncle Jake's childhood And they kind of teach a lesson to

People yeah, so that's number Podcast number 14 and 15 are the first two that I've started doing stories from Uncle Jake So I think people will like those Yeah, they're a little bit of, yeah, they're good. So this kind of like character development sprinkled in there with the lesson, to me, the lesson, well, I don't know, maybe this is intentional, but the lesson is the primary thing. Of course. And it's deep, same, very consistent with the whole Uncle Jake way, simple lessons. The idea is I'm explaining how Uncle Jake got his values.

Yeah. from experiences that he went through as a child. Yeah. And the stories are five minutes, eight minutes, something like that. Yeah, they're pretty short stories, but they're cool. Yeah. And they're enjoyable. So, Warrior Kid podcast. You can check that one out. It's It's good and if kids if your kids have questions for Uncle Jake just hit hit me up on Twitter. Yeah, send him to Twitter and I'll capture them. Yeah, good one. Also YouTube Subscribe to the YouTube channel We do have a YouTube channel

If you're interested in the video version Of this podcast Or if you want to see Echo's editing skills Sure Some people say you went over the top Sure, I'll go over the top sometimes So there's a video called Warpath It's probably the most controversial video

From my perspective Because it was originally made With Christmas music Which I don't like Christmas music And Echo made it with Christmas music And he put a lot of time and effort into it On Christmas by the way If we want to talk leadership here, like from my perspective,

I knew you've been working really hard on this thing. And then you showed it to me and the Christmas music kicked in, which I didn't like, didn't match. But, you know, I just had to be like, hey, man, it's great. I really appreciate you. That's a great video. So I lied to you. Is that a lie?

You didn't say great. No, you did not lie. Okay. You said, and I quote, interesting choice of music for this one. That's what you said. Now, I also will say that I, don't a hundred percent trust myself like I think to myself well echo really liked

Christmas music so he put it in there so that's fine if that maybe some other people will like it too and that's I'm not here to like dictate what people like and don't like I'm just here to tell you what I like and don't like yes but then you but then you read it the video with with with more appropriate music sure which is good sure but but then some people said you got crazy you went too far with You went to for you too much stuff exploding. You got too much stuff going on. There's the same amount of explosions.

I know what I'm saying. I never really paid too much attention to what people said because I couldn't even get past the music. Once I got past the music and I checked the YouTube comments, which I know, right? Yeah, you know. I went there and people, some people, the majority of people said amazing, right? The majority. Some people just threw it out there. Hey, take it easy, bro.

Yeah. You can't make you you cross the line, right? Yes. You went over the line. I think you were around the line. Yeah. I think you might have, you know. Step the toe over it.

Yeah, a little bit. But we have to find out where the line is, right? Yes. And I think you did a good job of pressing up against the line without just getting to. Well, let me tell you the philosophy and tell me if this is a good way to approach it. So a lot of those videos, okay, so consider the first one we did. Good, right? Is that the first one you did?

Okay. Good job. Out of the gate. I think I might have told the story. Like there's a story behind it. But we were recording podcast. It was like number three or five. One of the first initial ones.

And I was like, oh, my camera was sitting over there behind, kind of behind over in the corner. And if you notice on Good one, it shows you, you can see like it's behind like a monitor. And you can see this stuff. I just went and pressed. I kind of moved the camera a little bit. And I just press record before you said that part. And I was like, oh, I'm going to record this just in case I'll make, I'll make a video out of it or something. You're like, okay, whatever.

And if you look and I watch it the other day, like Joe Rogan guys were talking about it. So I was like, oh, let me watch it, you know. And I remember thinking, and you're like reading. And when you're looking up, like you're looking at me. And I remember you saying this stuff to me. And I'm like, this is crazy. I'm glad I'm recording it. But that wasn't made it wasn't like okay. We're gonna do this. We're gonna record this and we're gonna do that

It was just like I'm gonna try to make a fun video out of it and then just put some random Like graphics on there that it was just having fun doing so these videos you do it They're kind of done out of just fun, you know and every and everyone's in a while hey man you have too much fun You grab some sound effects you make the walls crumble you do kind of stuff you know you have some fun with it I mean there's no I guess there is kind of their thematic I guess, right? There's some theme to it, like war path. Yeah, it's kind of, for me, it's like, it's pretty awesome to watch.

Yeah, it's just fun. And I can see where you're like, I can see where you start going down the path of like, just more is better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's really what happens. And I'll catch myself doing it and it'll take a long as I'm like, bro, this is not even necessary. And in fact, and some people, they will bring up this point, which is a good point where I put stuff crumbling, right? for okay war power take warpath for example I put the walls crumbling and

jacqu and dean rolling and when they clash like the walls come shattering down it's all these special effects which is like cool when you look at but all the special effects the sound effects and like all this stuff is like is it kind of getting in the way of the message because the message is like you're saying something specific you know so it's kind of getting in the way you know

true so I got to watch out for that and I think that's a good point when people say that I'm like dang that's true and because you don't know When you're in the mix you look more than a fake was so cool most people were stoked yeah I guess but I got to watch you right a hey there's also a warrior kid YouTube channel Okay so the reason that we separated the warrior kid and the warrior kid and the jocco podcast Channel channel blah blah is because we know that there's things on this podcast and on the Therefore on the YouTube channel jocco podcast there's stuff that's inappropriate for children to listen to or watch and so

this is a way to separate them so there's also a warrior kid YouTube channel that your kid can sit there and watch and and hopefully I'm not guaranteeing because I don't know how the algorithms work that pop up the next video selections but hopefully your kid can watch the warrior kid videos without getting hooked into the unit 731 testimony about vivisection so watch out for that yep true story and I and that one's in color too by the way yeah Mostly jocco in color. Uncle Jake, as it were.

Oh, yeah. Also, good way to support yourself is to get some new gear. If your workouts are boring. Give some new gear from Onet, by the way. Onet.com slash Jocco. Good place to go. Good information, too, about starting your kettlebell workout. Brows.

And I just thought of this kid yesterday. I was in the pool with my daughter. And my wife was saying, you know, you know how like, okay, so you might seem like BJ Penn do this, where he'll. go in the bottom of the ocean and it'll carry a rock in Hawaii yeah yeah that's so I'm like hey you could grab one of those kettle bells for sure and and my daughter she's five so she's like yeah I was

like yeah go grab the little it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like a pixie you know or I don't know I don't know what it is but it's like one of those legend bells yeah yeah it's a small one that that I got for so she grabs it and she goes in the pool she's like I'm gonna say yeah I walk to the other side and it's like deep it's she goes kind into the deep section so she goes and She's carrying it. She's doing the whole BJ pan with the little kettlebell. She's five, by the way, under the water. And we're watching it.

We're like, oh, that's cute. But she starts to sort of run out of air. And she don't want to drop the kettlebell because it's like going to slam on the bottom of the pool. And I don't know, maybe she's five. She didn't think of that, you know, kind of thing. So I see her trying to like swim with it, like trying to get to the top. And it's kind of deep. And I was like, oh, I started to get worried.

And then she started a little bit more urgency. So I had to jump in. Grab her. Echo with the save. Saved. But she did. right when I got to her she put it up on the little there's a little ledge on the other side of the pool there she managed to do it just but just barely so I went in

there when my middle daughter was probably eight eight years old and we had a party at the beach for her birthday or what and so I was dealing with like as long as I could I was dealing with the games and the whatever and finally I'm like you know what that's it we're going we're gonna get some so we formed the party up in the two teams and we're gonna compete against each other in obstacle courses and sprints and all this other stuff And this particular location has a river Gentle flowing tidal river that comes out and anyways One of the contests I had was okay, you've got to swim across and there's big rocks and stuff and I go you got to swim across the river and come back and whoever brings back the biggest rock is the winner

So my middle daughter is tough She's tough And she's strong. She's a wrestler and gymnastics and all that crap. Or not crap, but all that stuff. You know, like she's just, just, she's a beast. And she's mentally like, I don't want to use the term psycho, but like she's real determined about stuff sometimes.

So anyways, this is when she's a little kid, you know. And so go across the river and whoever brings back the biggest rock wins. So she goes so they all go across and kids are grabbing rocks that are size of Let's say let's say a softball You know maybe a softball what's in between the size of a softball and a soccer ball? I don't know So something okay loaf of bread like like maybe a small loaf of bread That's the max right that any of these kids are grabbing my daughter grabs something

That's like the size of a like a legit watermelon Like a big giant giant giant rock A two hand Oh two hand rock giant rock giant rock Like four or five loaves of bread Just a big big giant rock And I'm watching her and I'm thinking

Well she's gonna sink to the bottom And she'll have to let it go and she'll have to go back And get a smaller one maybe she can still do okay So she's come and the river Has weird contours on the bottom You know you're you can walk a little while And then it just drops super deep Right right right

And you just gotta make it Yeah So I'm watching her and She's she's she's hard for even carry it And and she carries she gets that deep section just drops down goes under And I'm waiting for her to pop up But she doesn't pop up and I'm waiting for her to pop up and she doesn't pop up and I'm waiting for her to pop up and she doesn't pop up and then I see like an air bubble come up And I'm like oh dang

Yeah, but the air bubble has progressed So now I'm watching the air bubbles like progress They're coming closer to the other side and And then it starts to come up and sure enough out she comes like a like a beast She's holding the rock and she comes up out of the water Powered to it powered through that and brings the rock up drops it at my feet I was like victory is yours That's that's actually pretty powerful because

Bro when you're I mean unless she was like depends on her mindset so her she was probably like I'm not gonna let this rock defeat me I'm gonna bring it to the other side and that's kind of the mindset I'm not gonna drop it for that reason I think my daughter it was like I can't drop this thing yeah so I'm stuck with it you know kind of thing that's what you know so she started you could tell she was a little bit going into panic mode yeah yeah so it's a whole different scenario technically but that's pretty savage though do you think that I should because she's probably she's scared she even said like later like Oh, that was like scary and all this stuff.

I should probably make her do it again, huh? Yeah. Like, not make her, like, do it. But like maybe jump in with her. My daughter, my youngest daughter just did a big cliff jump yesterday and long swim in the ocean, open, open ocean waters. Okay. You got to get them.

And she was, I was, I thought she was going to be panicky. Yeah. Because it's a big drop and it's ocean and whatever and it's a wave action. Yeah. But she was, I said, are you good? And she said, yeah. Did you do it too? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. They usually, I mean, unless you do it. She got traumatized by it or something like this. Yeah. Where, bro, my, it's weird. Come from Hawaii, you jump off everything. Yeah, water. Go down the shit.

Yeah, you see, you know what that was. So we have this ledge, you know, that, you know, you saw it. And it's not that high, but for a one-year-old, it's pretty high. It's pretty good. But my boy and my daughter, when she was one, two, they just jump off. We catch them. They can't swim yet, you know. And my son, he jumped off a few times and was all good.

But then one time he went to walk and there was this little, just a slight little dip. And, you know, when you're one, you know, you're new to walk. He slipped. He tripped and he fell in. I caught him, but he full on, like, hit his side on the edge of the thing. And he's, and he's crying. He's one and just over one, maybe like 13, 14. Made him do it again.

He didn't want to do it, though. But so I didn't, like, push him again. I just kept like, hey, do it. I got you. I got you. And he'd be like, you know, crying and whatever. And then, you know, my daughter would do it. I would do it then he finally like reluctantly did it and we cheered for him and now he's all good

Good to go. He like forces himself he makes me catch him now He's like almost too anyway, but yeah the point is you make him do it again, right? Yeah, but you're very accurate in saying don't traumatize him Yeah, you'll be like you're going right now. Yeah, yeah Huck him off now. It's just getting worse. You're not you're not you know it's like the hey do it You should do it. Oh, you want to take a little break. That's okay, but you know you should definitely do this is it you've already done it before yeah You don't want to traumatize them worse. Yeah, yeah. That's not going to work out good.

Yeah, especially with the waterman, because it's like, it's one minute, it's all fun in games, and literally your mind can flip to like, I'm about to die. I used to say this. So in the 90s, in the SEAL teams, when there was no war going on, and whatever, you'd go out and you do training, there was times, I would always tell guys, when you're working in the water, it's a real world mission. Like, we didn't know what a real world mission. I've never been on one, but the fact of the matter is, when you're working with the water,

it's a real world mission. Because if you screw something up, you can easily die. Easily. If you're not careful, one up, one down, just going to throw it out there. If you're doing any kind of this training, any training in the water, one person stays up on the surface, the other person, you know, and be a lifeguard. You don't do simultaneous training in the water. So just throwing that out. There's a little safety note for everyone.

One up, one down. That's the rule. Yes. And especially if you're carrying the kettlebells from on it, Or otherwise, at the bottom of the pool, the bottom of the ocean, the bottom of a reservoir, bottom of any body of water. Yep. One up, one down. One up, one down is the rule.

Nonetheless, so that's how we utilize the pixie. I think it's called pixie. It's one of the legend bells. Anyway, if, I guess that doesn't really have much to do with what on it offers, but it just, I just thought of that because it just happened. Nonetheless, hey, it was represented in the story. Boom. Indeed. Good. Anyway, if you want cool fitness stuff, on it.com slash jocco, a lot of good information on there.

Some socks on there. I mentioned the socks. Like, it's like this big deal. And here's the thing. It is. Onet socks. I was a TSA the other day. I had to stun on it with my on it socks. Sox. You know they're looking there like those are dope socks. Anyway, on it.com slash jacco. It's a good spot. Psychological warfare is an album that you can get where I talk about stuff of overcoming when you have little moments of weakness. And I'm going to make it. Make another one. Good. Make another one. Got it, I'm plotting on it. Good. It looks like it's gonna be called all your excuses are lies.

Yes, good title. You get that iTunes, Google Play, wherever MP3s are sold. Yeah, man. Amazon. And also Jocka White Tea. People have now seen that we have cans of Jocka White Tea. Where do you get them? You get them on Amazon if you want them.

It tastes awesome. You can get the dry tea on there too, which you add water to. Water to and then you brew it and then if either one you're gonna get an 8,000 pound deadlift so that's cool Do that got some books way the warrior kid and Mark's mission two books Which one do you like better? I like better? I can't say because the first one the OG the original one from wimpy to warrior We'll always have that's the one that establishes establishes the ethos in my house anyway Yeah, but yeah, no, I can't say. I think they're both outstanding,

but it's good how you evolve the issues, you know? Like, it's like, boom, basic inches. Think about how many people are like, oh, you're going to write more? Well, yeah, well, what are you going to write about? Think about all the issues you have as a human being and then think about all the issues you had as a kid. Yeah.

Like, we're going to cover all those. Yeah, that's like 10 books right then. Uncle Jake's got some help for you. Yeah. So, yeah, way of the Warrior Kid books. The one thing that's cool is people, as a parent, You're like, man, how do I get my kid to even something as stupid as clean in your room, right? How do you get your kid to clean your room?

Haven't read this book? I got pictures. I just got a picture on Twitter the other day. Kids got a vacuum cleaner. And the dad's pumped, right? The dad's pumped. He's like, ew, look at this. That's a real thing.

Even as like, okay, so kids read the book, of course. But I read it to my daughter, who was four at the time. Four. Yeah. So I'm reading it, and it's answering a bunch of questions. So it's like, hey, you know, my kid, you know, my daughter's a kid, okay, okay. Oh, you mean parenting questions. Yes, exactly, right.

So, and it's just little stuff. Little stuff sometimes you won't even really think of. So like, okay, for example, and I said, I mentioned this one before, but it's a huge deal that I still use it. Like, it's on the front of my mind every single time. So you know how, like, you'll have a kid and they'll be like real good at something just kind of right away? Maybe your kid's more athletic or something.

Maybe they're bigger or taller or whatever. So they kind of win real quick, you know. So when they run into a situation where they're in a situation where they're in a, an activity that actually requires practice, like a cartwheel or something like this. And so my daughter, she's big. She's the athletic little girl. Way bigger.

She's, you know, and so she has this friend. Same age, she's like a week, either older or younger, I forget, but they're the same age. And she can do a cartwheel and just fly through cartwheels, one-handed cartwheels, all this stuff. This other girl can. She's way smaller, you know, way, whatever. So my daughter, she doesn't like that.

Not the fact that the girl can, but just she can. Yeah. You know, so she tries to do it. Which sort of leads to that she can. It kind of starts. Yeah, you know, it's a whole thing. So it's very upsetting. So Uncle Jake said something in the first one that this will always stick with me.

When she complains to me about it, she can't do a cartwheel and how Malia can do a cartwheel, but I can and all this stuff. I say, and I quote, Uncle Jake, how do you expect to be good at something when you've never practiced? Boom. Just like the times table. Yeah. Are you going to be good at times table when you never practice? studied you know and it makes it known how to do a cartwheel you're not foreign knowing how to do a cartwheel just like how you know our other neighbor can play the guitar you know much

practice you know kind of thing and it's crazy because just that simple line right there she's four and she understands you know she's like practicing or practice anyway that's how that's that book is man warrior kid books there's two of them where the warrior kid and mark's mission you can get those you can also get discipline equals freedom the field manual field manual how to get after it Simple as that The audio version of that is not on audible It's on

iTunes, Amazon music, all that stuff Also Extreme Ownership Extreme Ownership is on Audible And I just looked, it was number two On Apple Audible books, whatever that's called Apple iBooks or something Number two, right now, books been out

for almost three years. What is Apple I books? It's where you can get books for your audio books? Audio books yeah sorry yeah yeah no worries oh speaking of books by the way It if you want to get this one oh unit 731 Testimony yeah I'm putting on the and unit 731 just that yeah oh that and that subtitle is Japan secret biological warfare in World War II yeah dark book but see really

Seat strongly I feel strongly that that's like one you kind of want to read the whole thing Yeah, it's crazy but yeah anyway I'm gonna put them on On our website, Jockelpodcast. You know, someone just hit me up on Twitter that he's like, hey, we had a long road trip for Fourth of July, my wife, me, and my kids aged, you know, 13, whatever, listen to 121, 122 and 123. Yeah.

That's real significant. You know, I don't know if I want to say it, family time, but like that's a real, compared to the other things you could be doing in the car that's a real good thing to do in your car introduce your kids to a bit of history a bit of human nature

a bit of the darkness of the world a bit of overcoming that darkness that's pretty cool these are the kind of books well so that's that but yeah these books you're saying these kind of books you kind of want to have it's I think it's important to I think it's important to know what's going on

and know what has happened in the world as I said yeah You want to check that out. Yeah. But yeah, I'll put it on the website. That's the point. I'm gonna have a, or we have it on the page, books from the episodes, all by episodes. So this one's from, obviously, 133.

Yep. And also you've got on the website, because extreme ownership, which I talked about, is the first book I wrote with my brother, Laibbon, and we wrote another book, which is called The Dicotomy of Leadership. That's also on the website, right? Yes. Yeah. And, yeah. So that's coming out. September 25th if you want to get that on the first a dish yeah man you can go for the third

edition if you want though yeah what's the difference between third and third edition and seventh edition nothing yeah just same what's the difference between first edition and second a dish well it's you were in the game yeah so it's kind of like the difference if you take if you run a race or if you're recognized not recognized but let's say you run a race you first okay first place place guy all get metals what is what is the metal made out of we'll just say metal for like a better term what's the difference between the metal gold no nothing only the color psychological oh it's all made the same stuff bad analogy yeah I don't even follow it but all right first edition that's the point that's what we get it's what we're talking about

here and also if you want to bring myself Babe Babin J.P. to know, Dave Burke. We got Mike Sorrelli. We've got Flynn Cochran now on the team. If you need help with leadership in your organization, whatever kind of organization it is, you can hit us up. Eschalonfront is the name of the company. We solve problems through leadership. Eschalonfront.com. Get some. We have one more muster in 2018. It is in San Francisco. It's October 17th and 18th. It's gonna sell out. I just got an update from Jamie today. The office director at Eselan Front.

And she was saying that we're gonna sell out a lot sooner than we thought. So if you wanna come up there at extreme ownership.com, the muster, I got a video to post about that too. I haven't posted it yet, but yeah, that's that. Also on top of the muster, we have the roll call, which is for police, military, law enforcement, Firefighters first responders it's for people in uniform that's happening September 21st in Dallas Texas

It's only one day so you don't have to miss too much work. It's a lower price point So you can afford it or you can get your organization to pay for it a little easier come on down to that It's a great program. I just finished putting together the agenda yesterday and so come on down Until then if you want to kick it with us a little bit more virtual Until we are together live, which we will be, we'll be together live at the muster in San Francisco or at the roll call in Dallas, Texas, or at the immersion camp in Maine. We'll see you at one of those. But until then, if you do want to kick it with us, we will be on the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram, and on dash face, Apple. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And of course, to all the military personnel that are listening, you provide. the freedom that allows us to do what we do every day you also hold the line against the evil that we talked about today so thank you to police law enforcement firefighters paramedics border patrol other first responders you actually

provide this safety that allows us to do what we do every day so thanks to you and to the families that support all those that serve thank you for supporting those families that serve and to everyone else that's listening Thank you for listening. Thanks for supporting I know it was a rough listen I know it is it's rough for me to read. It's rough for me to talk about, but it's also a reality and if you don't face reality You can't fix it if you don't face your past you can't learn from it So what you have to do is you have to face them you have to face what's something scares you you have to face what bothers you you have to face your weaknesses and face your fears and face your own

Darkness face them own them and overcome them all by stepping up and getting after it and until next time this is Echo and Jocko out