Jocko Podcast - 150: Drafted to Vietnam, Surfing, and Surfboards with Dave Hall and Josh Hall

Episode Date: November 7, 2018

0:00:00 – Opening 0:03:01 – Dave Hall: The Draft. Vietnam. 1:48:24 – Josh Hall: Surfing, Surfboards, and Entrepreneurship. Josh Hall Surfboards: http://www.joshhallsurfboards.com 2:45:30 – How to Stay on The Path. 3:31:36 – Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 150 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. And who are the young men? We are asking to go into action against such solid odds. You've met them. You know they are the best we have. But they are not McNamara's sons or Bundys.

I doubt they are. yours and they know they know they are at the end of the pipeline that no one cares they know and that right there is an anonymous quote from a general in Vietnam to correspondent war correspondent named Arthur Haley who is actually himself a decorated tank commander in World War II who enlisted in the army and there's a key word I said there you know a volunteer who voluntarily enlisted in the army in World War II and in Vietnam in the Vietnam War you hear a lot about the draftees in Vietnam and in fact 25% of the forces that fought in Vietnam were draftees and

draftees accounted for 30% of the deaths Vietnam now on this podcast we've heard from a bunch of those volunteers a bunch of those career soldiers Marines that fought in Vietnam but tonight we're honored to have someone on the podcast that was not necessarily a of the volunteer that was not necessarily looking to be in the military for a career but who nonetheless stepped up and did his job for our country and once he served his time he came home and lived his life and he had a son and his son has also joined us on the podcast and his son took a different route he was guided by his dad but he was guided

not to war but to the water So we have tonight Dave Hall, Vietnam veteran Tanker, who's also the father of Josh Hall, who's a surfer, a craftsman, a surfboard shaper, and an entrepreneur. And I think we're looking forward to this. At least I am. So welcome to the show, both of you. Thanks for coming on. Josh, Dave. Awesome to have you.

It's an honor. Thanks for coming out here from Hawaii. I know, you know, most people don't want to leave Hawaii when they're there. But I'm glad we were able to drag you out here. No, it was a burden on me, but I love to see my son. Awesome. Awesome, Josh. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you. I'm stoked. I know we've been seeing each other in the water for a while and at contests and whatnot. So it's good we linked up and have this opportunity to come on and talk about, Talk about some of my favorite things War and surfing So Dave we got to start with you and you know we always kind of try and take it back to the beginning and just kind of what your background was And you know where you came from? I know what you were born in?

Born in Boston Massachusetts And what did your dad do my dad was a My dad did many things a world or two is a pilot and B-17 over in England. So that's one that just slipped under the radar. Yeah. Your dad was a B-17 pilot in World War II?

Yeah. Dang. And B-24s, and he always wanted to be a fighter pilot, and he tried to go to the Pacific. And that never happened. So anyways, he married my mom. And then we ended up living in Boston, for a while. I mean, we traveled around the country because he was still in the service in Air Force,

lived in Texas and lived in Colorado, lived in... Was he a career Army guy, Army Air Force guy? For, yes, for a little while. Okay. I don't know exactly when he got out. When he did get out, he started flying for United Airlines. Okay. And I know in the 50s and stuff, he went to...

I don't think he went to Korea. I'm lost right now, so... But, yeah, he did a multitude of things. He was a teacher, a lawyer, a farmer. He farmed Nebraska. He was born in Nebraska. We had a big ranch back there. And he taught school in Nebraska.

And then we had been living in Santa Ana until I was nine years old. I went to visit my grandfather, Nebraska. and then that summer at the end of the summer, my folks ended up coming out with all the kids and the whole house. They decided not to fly for United Airlines anymore and become a farmer again. So, yeah, it was kind of different.

So anyways, that's, yeah, like I said, I lived in a lot of different states and stuff because of the service. But Nebraska was kind of like my favorite place. You know, from there. Now you, so you, did you work on the farm? Oh, yeah. Because every kid that grows up on a farm

is like slave labor. Exactly. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Ten hours in the field plowing. You know, we had a cow. We had to milk every day. You know, we called her six o'clock, six o'clock in the morning, six o'clock at night. And a few other cattle. And we had pigs, and I raised 300 chicken. And, of course, I had my brother and sisters and stuff were there, too. They all helped out. And this is when you're, what, like 10, 11, 12 years old? I was 11. Yeah. I went back there at 10, and I was back there for like three summers, you know, so I was 12. I think we ended up moving back to Connecticut. And then how long were we out there for? A year in Connecticut. And then my dad, he bought a business here in San Diego.

Oh, okay. And hall and hall personnel. And so we moved back out here. And he found a place, and we lived out in Spring Valley. And he worked downtown, has his own office down there. So, yeah, it was kind of different. And so then you spent your high school years here in San Diego. Yeah, I started ninth grade in San Diego.

Went to Mount Miguel high school. And then I graduated and went to, I was going to college for a while and then got drafted. Did you start surfing in high school? Actually, when we live in San Anna and I said, I didn't surf. We had mats. Uh-huh. We had mats up there my mom. Hell yeah.

So, you know, I was young then, and we'd always go down to my mom take me every day, you know, down, me and the kids, and to Laguna Beach. Okay. Down the China Cove down there. And, yeah, broke my eardrum down there. Ouch. As a matter of fact, yeah. But anyways, yeah, and then I started surfing, you know, 10th grade, you know, ninth grade and stuff. But, yeah, when we first came out here and stuff, I loved it.

I thought we were going to move to the beach. We stayed at the San Diego Motel right down there on... It's across from In-N-Out and Peeby by the play with. And we stayed there until my dad found a house to live in. So, you know, I'd go to the beach then, you know, walk to the beach. Oh, yeah. It was fun. That's what everyone thinks.

Well, people that don't live in California think all of California is like Baywatch. That's the answer at all. You don't realize that there's, you know, massive, I mean, obviously there's massive swath of land, but agriculture is huge. You know, you'd go up the, you'd just drive by farm after farm after farm after farm. So much in California is farming. And, but people think everything in California is just bay watch. It's not. Can come close sometimes.

But then you, so you went to high school here and you, you did surf, but you weren't able to get to the water that much? quite a bit actually yeah i had a i had a uh my dad bought me a 53 Chevy 504 Chevy two door and stuff so i ripped out the back seat so i get my boards in there and uh then i got my sister's car if he had a uh station wagon it was a 57 Ford two door deluxe you know it was you know the whole thing that was a surf wagon oh yeah you know so me and the boys you know so i was wrong you actually got to the water a lot yeah Yeah, yeah, quite a bit. And you did, you, you wrestled, you, in high school, yeah, a little bit of wrestling.

I was mostly on the, I was on the swim team. I dove and I swam and my fault, you know, somebody said, can anybody do the butterfly and go, yeah, I can't, right now and early, so you're the butterfly guy. And then, so during this time period, were you paying attention? I mean, obviously your dad was in the, you know, out of the military but you had that connection to the military were you paying attention in those years because now we're talking this is like the mid 60s are you paying attention to what's happening no vietnam you're just you're focused on just yeah just life you know right now as a kid but

not that i can really recall yeah you know it wasn't really on my radar yeah and then you graduate in your figure you're going to go to college for a bit yeah well we went to the Grosmont Junior College. What year did you graduate high school? 66. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

So Vietnam was still relatively... Yeah, it wasn't... Yeah. I mean, they started... The Battle of the Idrang Valley was in 1965, and that was kind of like the big first spike in activity. I don't want to say that, but it was definitely a highlight. It started hitting the news more.

Right. And that was in 65, so you graduated in 66. Yeah. I mean, there was talk, you know, everything, draft and the draft and stuff. like that but it wasn't like I said it wasn't I didn't really pay attention to it yeah yeah surfing can distract you from all kinds of the world's problems which is a good thing so then so then you roll to grossmont college you're there yeah and now are you are you starting to become more aware of the draft at this point no no because I I snow skied a lot so

You know, there's a lot of activity, and I belong to the ski club there at Grosmont, and, you know, so we'd go to Squaw Valley, Heavenly, and ski a lot. So, no, I still didn't really think about it. I didn't think about it until I saw my mom pull an envelope up, you know, and she said, hey, you got something from the government. And what was your reaction of that? I can't go to Mazzalon. Yeah, so, I mean, it was.

So it hit you that, it was that unexpected for you? you when you got that when you got your draft notice yeah yeah did you know any other guys that have been drafted oh yeah the class before me and stuff no I know I did Jim Tomlinson a great guy he was 25th Infantry over there and stuff they came back with all the board stories so I take that back I was aware of it you know because all these guys are coming back and talking about it but I never thought you know me I didn't worry about going so yeah so then when you got it. What was your reaction

when you got it? I was going to go, I'm going to go, I guess. It was either that, you know, or run and hide. And I thought, well, you know, if we make it the mazel on it, it's not a bad place to be. You know, if I could survive down there. So, and then I said, well, no, I got to do it. Yeah. It was a little bit scary, but, you know, I always look forward to things.

You know, I mean, I didn't look forward to going over there. But, I mean, it's kind of different. I know why not try it? So what was the shock to your system like, you know, this going from the surfing, skiing, and mazatlan life to checking into boot camp? Well, you had to go through the process of getting, you know, to go off the draft board in L.A. So I did that and then came back. And then had to go on second time for something. And then that was when we ended up getting on a bus and going to Ford O.

and it was like, whoa, you're locked in. You know, you don't, no place to go. And now, this is 68, so now we're talking, I mean, it's things have inflamed in Vietnam and it's, I mean, there's a lot of casualties happening. And, you know, from your perspective, you must have been thinking, hey, you might not have been thinking about it as much before, but all of a sudden you're wearing a uniform and there's people coming home, you know, people getting killed every day over in Vietnam at this point. Yeah.

I had friends that came home or didn't come home, you know, that told me about it, you know, other friends and stuff. But, I mean, it was like, of course, once you get them basic and stuff, they got you, you know. They pretty much got you. And you either go along with the program or they make you go along with the program and you end up going along with the program. Did you see guys that were, you know, that showed up, that realized what they got into and would act crazy or, you know no yeah yeah you had all all sorts of people one thing about the draft you had every walk of life i mean you have every walk of life in military anyways you know they come from all over but the draft picks them out of the bushes you know i mean it's like you know you got big guys small

guys you got older guys now i i was lucky because i was a little bit older and most of the guys like when i was in vietnam were a lot younger than i was i mean other than the i mean the i mean the guys that were with me. And by older, you were, how old are you? I was 21. Yeah. Old man. Well, yeah, in some respects, yeah.

You know, it always, whenever I go down to Coronado and I see the seals, the and, you know, I'll be with my wife, we'll go to Coronado, we'll see some seals on the beach or whatever, and you can't help. My wife can't help herself from saying, they look so young, they look like little kids. That's the same with me when I was 19, you know. That's where I was. So, yeah. when you're 19 years old, when you're 18 years old,

and you're looking at someone that's 21. Yeah. They're like the oldest person in the world. Yeah. Of course, all the other caddry and stuff were a lot older and stuff, you know. And did you have any choice in what your MOS was going to be? Yes, good question. No.

We made it through basic training. Sergeant Patterson was my drill instructor. Great guy. And then towards the end, they came out and they had this chart, everybody's name on it, 11 Bravo, 11 Bravo, 11 Bravo, and they saw me and Bob Zikva was 11 Echo. And we asked one of the sergeants that we're walking by. I go, what's 11 Echo?

What is that? Because we knew 11 Bravo was infantry. And he goes, well, you're going to be a tanker. I go, cool, I'm going to drive trucks. You know, I have farm background tractor or whatever, you know. And he goes, no, no, because I figure a tanker truck. Yeah. In my mind, you know?

I was going, oh, shoots. And they go, no, you want a tank. I still didn't quite get it, you know. So anyway, yeah. So in that respect, I go, okay, fine. And only two of us out of like 210 guys or something. something had 11 echo a couple guys went to the APC schools you know I forget what they call it and it was 11 echo a a or something like that I don't know yeah would would like you

talked about the guys that are putting you through basic these guys were guys coming back from Vietnam was the tone of basic training like hey you guys are going to Vietnam you need to be ready? Yes. You had to, yeah, we knew something was going to happen.

And, you know, like towards the end of basic training and stuff, they sent us to see this film. And it was

the John Wayne movie. What was the name of, I don't know, you're good at that. I wish Jimmy was here, yeah. John Wayne

movie. You guys never. saw it. I'm sure I have. He's in Vietnam. He's a general and... Oh, I don't know. Good guy. Anyways, I'll think of it. But that's what they did. They sent you to see it. They sent to see a movie. It was, you know, we got to go have a couple of beers and go see the movie and then back. And then after that, we came home. I know after basic training.

So that, that movie was their way of kind of... Letting you know what's going to... kind of happened to you. Yeah. Why can't I think of that? Did they, was, did you feel like the training

that they put you through? So, I mean, obviously boot camp is boot camp and you're going to get yelled at and you're going to do push-ups. When you got done with boot camp and they were putting you through,

today the Army, they go through, like, AIT. Yeah. So did you go through something like AIT? I did. I went through AIT in Fort Knox.

That's where the tank school is. And then they put me through NCO school, which is, because they need a lot of NCOs, I guess. So did you get it like meritoriously advanced

to become an NCO? It's hard to say, I guess. You know, it's just whatever your aptitude is to do things. Was that advanced school that they put you through? Was that, was it good training? Were you?

Oh, excellent training, yeah. Yeah. So you were pushed hard. They were, you know, teaching you use all the weapon systems. teaching you how to react in fire fights and all that stuff? Right. And then, you know, just mentally, you know, prepare yourself for what's going on.

I mean, radio operations, you know, commanding controls and, you know, things like that. So, I mean, it's things I didn't have no idea of what I was doing. But, yeah, it worked out pretty good. Yeah. No, it's always interesting to hear the way they prepare guys for combat. Yeah, because we went and became like a E4. course, and then once you graduate, you're at E5, you know, so you're a sergeant right away. Really? Yeah. And then after you graduate from that school, I started training on tanks. I get

different guys. Lucky me, I got the National Guard guys from California on my tank, which was kind of, you know, they said, well, you're from California, you can train these guys. So I said, okay, well, I'll do it. Pretty good guys. And then you come home, and then they give you leave after you get done with all that? Yeah, we went through, what was it? Some more advanced training and stuff. Anyways, I fell asleep in class one day, you know,

and we were getting, it's getting towards, like, Christmas time and stuff. Everybody's going to get to go home. And this one lieutenant, I guess, because I just nodded off. I mean, we've been on this drill, boom, boom, boom, you know. So you went through one of his classes, and I nodded off.

And the guy goes on, sorry, you're not going to go home and get out of my class. So I went back and I talked to my sergeant major. And then he went and talked to some colonel. And then they went, I guess it went all the way to Battalion or something like that. And they said, no, he's going to go home. He finished the class. And so they let me back in the class. And I finished it up.

And it was kind of like, oh, good, I get to go home for Christmas. And was that Christmas your pre-deployment leave? Was it pre- or was that just a break? No, it was a two-week break, and then I came home. In February or March, I know I was home for my birthday. It's kind of hard for me to win, right? I'm not sure, but I know I left here like April 15th, I think it was. And that was to go to Vietnam?

Yeah, yeah. And what was the... I almost missed a flight, too. It was great. The PSA flight out of San Diego. So they held the plane for me. Okay. Well, that wasn't that nice of them.

Were you, you came home, was that, what was the mood like when you were going over to Vietnam and you're saying goodbye to your family and you're saying goodbye to your mom and whatnot? Yeah, that was, that was, we had a pretty good party, you know, one night. And my next door neighbor had this beautiful rose gardens and his whole garden stuff. You know, there's guys sleeping out there and went through a couple of kegs and, you know, so it turned out pretty good. And so yeah, there was a little bit of moments, you know, where you're kind of a little anxious and stuff, you know. And I talked to my mom and she was an army nurse, you know, so she kind of knew what was going on. I bet that had to be way harder on your mom than it was on you.

Yeah, I didn't know that, you know, when it was happening. But, yeah. I mean, I don't know, when I was young and even when I was older, I was always like, hey, you. You know, we're kind of indestructible, and especially when you're young. Oh, sure. You're like, hey, I'm going to go over there. We're going to kick ass. That's what's going to happen.

And it can be a little, but especially if your mom was an army nurse. Yeah. So she's seen all kinds of stuff. Yeah, she took care of a lot of wounded soldiers. Yeah, so that had to be way harder for her. And it's always, I think, always harder for the families. She didn't show it, though. You know, she never.

She gave me a little book. sorry it's all right it's all right man you still have the book I do someplace all it was was a little saying it says out of Psalms and it says be part of the answer

or not the problem and that's why I kept that with me well that's that's some unbelievable advice right there that's great advice for any situation yeah sorry no it's all good let it out man

it's all good So when you So you fly the The The commercial plane over to Vietnam I Or was a chartered plane? No

It was It was a commercial It was a I didn't even know what Airlines it was Yeah but it was a commercial plane And was there a bunch of other guys Going to Vietnam on it?

It was all Vietnam? All of us, yeah Yeah We flew from Frisco or Travis or whatever it is up there And Flew to Japan Landed in them

Soak of Japan and pilot was really nice. He went around Mount Fuji and stuff forwards on both sides of the plane. And then from there we went to Tonsanooid Air Base. And again, I mean, just to point out to everyone, this is now, is it 1969 yet? No. It's still 68? No, it's 69. Okay.

April 69. The height of the war in Vietnam. Yeah. Well, it's one height, yeah. I guess. Every battle was an individual's battle. Yeah. It wasn't, yeah.

You've been there and done that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I haven't been in the heights of the Vietnam War or any of the heights in the Vietnam War. No, no, no, no, I know. But, I mean. And your attitude when you show up, you get there. What was that welcome to Vietnam?

You were showing me a picture earlier. And you're like, hey, this is me. I just got there. You guys are kind of sit there. Me and Bob Zickwa. It looks like you're getting some kind of an in-brief. Like, hey, here's what's going on. It was kind of strange.

You know, the first thing you land on the ground and stuff is, where's my weapon? You know, because you're obviously in a foreign country. And in a hostile country, too. And they go, I don't worry about it. You get it, you get it. You know, okay. So then they, after that little gathering there,

and they said, okay, everybody jump on these. Actually, Bob and I got split up. He went with another company I went with, the company I went with, and it was kind of like, see ya. And so they threw us in the back and a deuce and a half, and then we went to a, God, what was the name of it? I should get the name of the places right. Anyways, it was another staging area. And, you know, you're driving through these villages and stuff, and it's like, whoa. And you still don't have a weapon.

Don't have a weapon. No. You got one guy up there, you know, out of the, they used to have turrets in the deuce and a half and stuff. He's up there with the M-16 and stuff, you know. It's kind of like, where's ours, you know? And so you go into a staging area, and you spend a couple weeks there, and they take you through what they call snake training.

And what it is is it gets you familiar with the area, and, you know, the ants and the swamps and the, you know, the water and the rain and, you know, and all this. And they, they, they, uh, just introduce us to a lot of different things. Well, it was interesting. Because I was a buck sergeant, uh, this one class, this one class one day, they're all sitting on the bleachers, right? And, uh, and some lieutenant or captain or something says, once you sit here and just monitor the radio and I said, yeah, sure.

That day the bleachers collapsed with all the guys on it and they had broken legs and arms and it was terrible and I was going pull Luck. That's all it was. How long was it before when you got done with snake training? Oh yeah and then they how long was it before you actually went in the field and connected with your unit? Just like two weeks. Okay, you know we can have two weeks something like that and then I got up to an area called an unlock. It was the top of the Highway 13 and I asked the first sergeant, I asked him, I said, well, how many tanks do we have? And he goes, we don't have any tanks. I go, well, I'm a tank commander.

He goes, no, don't worry about it. We got something out there, just got a turret on it, and gone out front. I was going, oh, okay. And then I got to introduce through the flame track. And is that a modified 113? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, 180 gallons. napalm tune your legs. So it was a, it was different. And in the hindsight, you know, I'm kind of glad I wasn't on a tank because that's where my friend Bob, he was only in the country three weeks and got hit, you know, I mean, put the new guy in the lead tank, you know, take an RPG through the cupola and he got strapping on the legs and stuff and got sent home. I mean, I wrote in-country to him numerous times.

I'm going, I never get back. Never got back. Finally, his mom said, well, no, Bob's in Washington, you know, recovering from wounds. I'm going, whoa. Yeah. Yeah. The, when you, when you showed up there and, you know, you start meeting your leadership, what were they like? Were we had Sergeant Sutherland.

He's E6. He was part of the flame platoon. And I don't know. So, you know, and Red, Big Red, we call him. He was from, I think it was from Virginia or something like that. He was actually the guy that taught me how to use the flame pack because it's a chemical MOS. I didn't know anything about napalm or anything like that.

So it was a learning process. So I rode as a gunner on the track for, well, until my first firefight and stuff, and I was a side gunner on that one. And so we learned. And it was really, it was kind of nice. You know, you go out and the first few weeks I was there and stuff, it was like, the country's beautiful. You know, don't get me wrong. And we were in the highlands, you know, so it was pretty cool.

And so we were going in these villages, and we'd take the medics in there, and they'd help the kids out and whoever needed help and stuff, you know. And the village chief invited us off the track and go in and have a little tea with them and stuff in his little dirt hut. And, you know, so it was interesting. The mountain yard people. Oh, okay. Yeah, mountain yards over there. Nice people. I don't think they, I didn't think they, they didn't like the North Vietnamese.

I don't think they liked us either, but I mean, they got along with us good. And so that was, I know you did, you did a bunch of different, like, types of missions while you were there. Like, in terms of you did, let's just ask you. So what are the various types of missions that you guys were doing? So one was what you just talked about. you're going out into the villages. Right. You're making friends.

You're handing out, you know, medical supplies. Candy, whatever. Yeah. That, we put a lot of road security and stuff. And, you know, that was my first firefight. We went out to help some convoy. We'll have tanker trucks. Fuel trucks.

Actual tankers. Actual tankers, yeah. And they'd gotten ambush and stuff. So we went out and, you try to suppress that, or we were chasing these guys down and stuff, you know. So that's your first, that's your first firefight that's got in. That was my first firefight. How'd you take that?

And the reason I ask this is because we get a lot of guys that are in the military, they're going in the military. And I always ask people, what were you thinking in your first firefight? So that way, when they're in that situation, they have another little perspective of how to think about it. So they can be, because it's hard to get some. somebody prepared for that because everyone takes it a little bit differently. Oh, absolutely.

So I think the more different perspectives someone can hear, the better it is for them. Right. So we were chasing these guys. I don't know how many there were, you know, through the, after this, they ambushed the convoy and stuff. We were chasing them down through the jungle. And pretty thick in the jungle and stuff. And it's, you know, high brush and trees.

And so we broke out. and they tried to keep the flame track kind of in the center of things so it kind of semi-protected and whatever but I ended up on the flank on the left flank when we came out of the jungle you know because you get in there you get lost and you're looking around and the tracks could power through the jungle yeah because there's a lot of tree and high brush right okay you know head high or you know track high brush and a lot of trees we broke out into this opening now I was on the floor flank and we're looking across and it was a big rice patty and there's another section of jungle beyond that

and red and i kind of look at each other and we're going oh they couldn't have made across there that fast and just like that we'd turn the track back towards the jungle front and RPG you know hit my track right in the ass and then a couple guys got blown off the top red was still on the 50 i was on the 60 and it's just instant training jumps in. I saw the three guys that shot the RPG, you know, and just training a 50 or 60 on them, and the red trained of 50 over there. And then by that time,

everybody else had turned back towards the jungle and started leveling it. The recon outfit that I ran with, we had like five tracks. Each track had 350s on it. One of them had at one time had a 106. Each track had 350s on them? Right.

Yeah. So the track I was on had 150, 260s off either side, or 160 off either side. So it would be like the six tracks would be like a line company opening fire. The line company was 18 tracks or whatever. I don't know how many tracks it were in the long time. But we had a lot of firepower. And a lot of firepower. And so did you feel like, like you said, the training kicked in?

You saw what was going on? I saw exactly what was going on and stuff. And we got hit and stuff. And then, you know, I ripped the 60 out of the mount and jumped off the back and still firing it, you know, towards the guys and stuff. So, yeah. Did you use your flamethrower on that one? Yeah, he did, yeah. Red shot.

Yeah. Just to encompass, you know, he shot way up over the top of the jungle and a big circle just to make sure, you know. That's a scary weapon right there. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. It's devastating. But, and man's always been afraid of fire. Yeah.

There's a definite instinct with that, no doubt about it. Yeah. Now, would you guys return back to a base? you guys got done with these operations so you'd come back to a base and yeah we had a base camp i had my own you know you know your underground bunker and stuff you know because we took a lot of artillery at night and you know the rocket fire and everything so we had a little underground bunkers and that was that was that was the only place i knew at the time so it had to be a good place would you see as a good place good in terms of the fact that you had it built up enough that there were

some creature comforts there well i not a whole lot of creature comfort was a bunker Yeah, yeah, and that was comfortable. Yeah, yeah, so, you know, and then we, a couple times we'd go out and clear areas a little bit further away from the perimeter and everything, you know, so. And then the town, Anlock itself was right next door to us. So it was, we'd go through that village, you know, every day. And what was the reaction from the folks that lived, the local populace that lived in Anlock? Were those mountain yards? You know, I don't know.

I don't think they were, but I could be. wrong you know coffee on that semi-friendly we didn't get in contact them too much you know we would we were at that point after that that first firefight I mean there was there was a multitude of other ones how long how long had you been on the ground before you got in that first firefight three weeks so a couple weeks of snake training landed on yeah I landed the 15th and then I think it was May 2nd, April 15th I landed, and then May 2nd was the first firefight. And then I know some of the notes that you sent over was like you basically, after that first one, it was just, that's just the way it was.

That was just life. That was life, yeah, afterwards. And how would you guys, would you guys take casualties often when you, when you get engagements because you had, you know, armor, was your, was your casualty rate lower, you think, than a regular infantry unit? Definitely, yeah. We were a lot better off than a lot of folks that were on the ground and stuff.

So one thing about, if you do take a casually, they're out of the field pretty fast. So you're busy doing this, you know, Jimmy's gone or Johnny's gone or, you know, you don't know until you get back to base camp whether he made it or not. So, yeah, they were pretty, I was thinking about that the other night, you know, because I was going, yeah, I don't really remember.

I mean, I've seen a lot of guys get hit, you know, when we were doing joint operations or something like that, not necessarily my guys. But I never lost anybody off my track. And the other tracks, maybe one, maybe two. It was very low. And how much was the enemy using mines on your tracks? And how effective were they? they're pretty effective. Depending on where you were, I mean, we had mine sweepers and stuff that would sweep 13, Highway 13.

You know, I'll depend on which fire base they were at, and they would sweep. And we didn't, my track, not my track, but the track I had, and then I got a new one, I'd given a friend of mine, Doug Dodge, and he hit a mine. Actually, the day I gave it to him, he went out. out of submission he had the other the other flame track and what did he did did did they lose guys no just blew the track off you know I wasn't that as I'm sitting here trying to figure out 40 pound or something like that three four yeah as I'm sitting here trying to think about because the the enemy in Iraq which is which is where I was yeah they were really good

with IEDs and they would take out vehicles not just Humvees they'd take out Humvees they take out tanks tanks and bradley's and and even the even the mind resistant vehicles they would take those things out because they'd put these big bombs. But how often were you guys, I'm thinking in my own head that the reason is because we were on roads. And so we were in channelized areas. You're going through a city. You're going to go down the road. There's no, you can't drive through the buildings. Correct. And so it sounds like if you guys were, we're just driving through the jungle, driving through the rice patties, you know, you didn't have to be in a channelized area. So there was, it would be harder for the enemy to put the bombs in the, put the mines in,

in the right place because they couldn't predict as well where you were going to be. Right. A lot of the roads and stuff were, we did run the roads in some areas and stuff. I mean, I saw a M60 tank, you know, hit a 500-pounder command detonated, you know, split it in half like that, turned and went off like this, you know, two guys lived. But, you know, it was pretty devastating. And that was in front of us, in front of our column. But, yeah, it's, and then I saw a, it was.

It was a M-47 tank. We called it a duster. And it had 40-millimeter pom-pom guns on the side of it. It was a mean machine, you know. And he pulled out of our base camp down in Thunder 3, and before they swept the roads. And he was hauling ass. And he didn't get hurt or anything.

He blew the tracks off, but he hit him out. Yeah. So. You know, that's another thing that might have been just the technological advances for the insurgents in Iraq, you know, they had radio command detonated. So you didn't have to run wire. So it was easier for them to put mines out there.

Yeah, we ran into a lot of places like bunker systems and stuff that had wires in them, you know, for communications and things, you know. But, yeah, the mines, I was in a situation where there were two tracks in front of me, we'd take this another firefighter, we were in and stuff. If we had the, we had the, if I'm jumping around, let me know. Sounds.

Yeah, it's all good. We had, I guess they were the elite force of the South Vietnamese, a tiger group or whatever they were, kind of their commandos and stuff. They threw them all on our tracks. And so we went in this one area and we got bushed and there was nothing but RPGs flying through the air and, you know, machine gun fire and stuff. And we suppress that. But all these guys, all the Tiger Group, they jumped off the track. We're going, no, no, no, don't jump off. You know, we're going to move.

Capability you can move back and then read in advance. You know, I mean, you've got to think about that. But they just jumped off, and they got in crossfires, ended up shooting themselves. But anyways, you talked about the mines. We had captured this one kid, and he was on the captain's track. And so we were advancing. We were moving through past the area where the bunkers were.

And the captain's track hit a mine. And we're just in columns, the captain's tracks here. We got the ammunition tracks, the second one, and then my track. And so he hit a mine, blew the guy off. And he was sitting on the side and stuff, you know. Anyways, so the track in front of me, we're going, oh, shit. They suckered this into a minefield of what they did because they had these mines behind the bonker system and stuff.

And we got in there. The track in front of me, all he did was traverse just a little bit like that. Bam, went off. And I was going, whoa. So I got down off the track and ground got in my track through its tracks, you know, because we all went through a column and stuff. Yeah, it was pretty hairy. So I guess I was wrong.

The mines were a big threat. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, now that I think about it. Yeah, because I think the vast majority of the casualties in Iraq were from, you know, from IEDs, from roadside bombs because they just, they were good at it. And they, it's a, it's a weapon that you can, you can execute. That's scary. I don't see how guys did it, man. That was, that was, what I thought was scary than what I went through.

Yeah, for sure. That's the thing that there's no, there's very a limited amount you can do to prevent it. Now, we did everything we could. Sure. Actually, my guys never hit a mine, never hit an IED in Ramadi. And that was just, it was amazing. You know, it was a lot of luck. Sure.

You know, that's the grace of God looking out for us. But, you know, we also were very proactive in how we planned to do, you know, our missions. We would go after, right after the mine sweeping team would go clear. We'd go down immediately after them and that way. And then we'd get to where we want to be. And if we had to wait a couple hours, that'd be fine. We'd wait. But we would try and mitigate that risk to the best of our ability

because the mines were such a big threat. And it's one of those things that, yeah, once you can, I think that's what scares people the most because you have so little control over it. It's like, hey, if it happens, you can do everything right. You could follow the minesweeper. The minesweeper doesn't see everything. No.

And you can follow the minesweeper. and you can still get blown up. Go off the side of the road. Yeah. It's definitely a scary thing. And you talked about the South Vietnamese guys getting in a, you know, shooting themselves. Yeah.

Which is, I believe that's going to happen a lot less when you're in armor because obviously it's pretty clear. It's a lot easier to identify, hey, that's a friendly because they're in a 1-1-3 like we are. Whereas at nighttime, yeah. And we did have a situation. It wasn't us, but it happened. And that's, I usually use this in it as an example of how easy,

a blue on blue, you know, a friendly fire incident can happen. It happened in Ramadi where a Humvee shot at another Humvee, which, again, the insurgents did not have Humvees at all. Right, right. And to think of what the mindset is of a kid to look and see another, you know, see movement that's a Humvee and take, take some, fire some shots at it, that shows you how. nervous guys get and how perception at night is different and how your mind starts playing tricks on you

and the things are confusing and it can get pretty um yeah well just confusing it's the fog of war yeah night times it kind of yeah you know usually we hunker down at night and you go on and you set out your your trip flares and claymores and and all that and one night we did that and one of those trip flares went off and we thought everybody was back at base camp or back with us you know and uh we started firing and they these guys hunkered down behind a tree and they yelled and they go whoa whoa it's us you know it's like oh okay well i mean the flare went off i mean yeah you need to brief people when you're leaving the perimeter exactly lesson learned when i was running training i was tried to make it i would i would inject all that confusion because i wanted to

the guys to have friendly fire incidents while they're in training so they recognize what the things that the type of things that cause them yeah you know we heard about you know things like that but we i was never involved other than that little incident there which could have wasted two guys absolutely that's that's a scary thing luckily your marksmanship was a little bit off that day right they caught us goodbye surprise what about the uh you know uh you know uh uh How about the arc light, the B-52 bombing? I know you were telling one story about that. Oh, yeah, that was scary.

Kind of scary. We were chasing these guys, and we got a call over the radio and says, hey, everybody stopped. And we're in a strike zone. I went, what do you mean, a strike zone? He says, yeah, B-52s. And they said, everybody hunker down, get behind the track. You know, it's coming, and boom, boom, boom. And you could see, we looked up in the sky, I was going, whoa.

And there was like five B-52s. And you could see all these, 500,000 pounders where they're coming down. And I didn't get off the track. I mean, it was a 16-ton track, you know. And what's it going to do? And sure enough, boy, you know, the shockwave came and that tracks were rattling around.

And we're going, oh, my God, you know. We saw the smoke first, and then the shockwave hit. You know, it was pretty intense. How long would one of those missions? last for like how how long would those bombs be going off for oh this particular time i you know it's like one plane after another and you know probably half hour you know 20 minutes something like that for them to the end i'm not sure you know it's it's an extended period of time it's not like yeah then you go in sweep the area and we found some guys in there you know we saw one guy turpeter was talking to him and

stuff and he's bleeding from his nose and his ears and his eyes and you know the guy's still alive and he said all he interprets it so all he could do is every time one hit he'd bounce in the air they'd come back down another one hit he'd bounce in the air so yeah that was intense we weren't that close you know like he was but yeah who would be coordinating that would you guys be coordinating those no we had no idea they were coming no it was in a certain area or something like that. You know, then, you know, obviously we got the word, yeah. My best friend, I mean, I don't get me wrong, I mean, the B-52 strikes, they did their

thing, and we'd sweep areas. You know, we lost a track one time in a bomb crater, you know, that was overgrown and, you know, actually flipped inside. And so, like I said earlier, you know, Vietnam was a beautiful place, you know, if it wasn't for the war, it'd be great. and there was a lot of bomb bomb craters the cobra

I gotta say is our pal I know you guys had cobras over there you have the what are the black Apaches Apaches and stuff

but the cobra pilots and stuff they were pretty cool they're pretty cool we've had a cobra pilot on the podcast Have you? Yeah and he got shot down Did he?

Yeah got shot down twice the second time he got captured yeah oh yeah yeah bravest guys I know I mean they go into pretty close quarters yeah and they come in they used to come right behind us we'd be in a firefight they come in you know 50 feet over your head and the rockets firing so it's pretty intense interestingly not only do we have still have cobras but you know in in in remoddy um we had one-one three

is the same vehicle that you guys drove we still had it and they used it primarily for casualty evacuation okay but still I was in the back of the one one-one threes over in Ramadi what's that 30 years something later 40 years later yeah using the same vehicles and the same helicopters why not it work yeah my track didn't have much room inside because of the napalm tanks and stuff you know the other one-on-threes they had plenty of room they they used to I could only carry like 2100 rounds of 50 on my track you know they had 6,000 rounds of theirs you know so How scary is it when you got your track filled with napalm?

I didn't think about it too much. Well, you know, I think that would have been the back of my head a little bit. It is, it is, you know, and I was, we used to play with it once in a while. It was funny. You should mention that because at the end of shooting it, you could, because it's gas, you have igniters, and then you have raw gasoline. And so I used to blow out these, I don't know what I might have a picture. in there big billows of flame used to roll out you know because he used to pop it and

then then let off you know and we had a chemical guy come up to check out the tracks and stuff and I was telling what I was doing he goes you did what I go yeah you just play with you know after after empties and stuff you know you can roll out this big giant I mean as big as this room and ball of fire and And he goes, don't ever do that again. I go, why? Because the pressure ins- Because I didn't know that much about the hydraulics and pressure.

I learned real quick that it'll suck the flame back in. You'll blow the tanks out. I thought, whoa. So after that, it was like the track lasts for like, if you powered it on, it was like 32 seconds of rod like that flying out. and then you just get rid of the air. I think it's 2,700 PSI or something like that. Yeah, you're virtually a bomb.

They were ready to happen. Yeah, like I said, I think that would have been in the back of my mind a little bit. You took an RPG, and how did that not do massive damage? Well, the tracks are aluminum. Yeah. All right, so once the RPG is ignited, you have that rod that comes out,

and it just went through the back end, then out of... So it did it through and through? Yeah, right through. So it must not have detonated or something? Oh, it detonated. Oh, really? Yeah.

So you had shrapnel, and I can show you a picture of all the ammo that I had in the back there. It's all blown up, and it scarred the tank. And I went out over the top of the track, you know, on the right rear side. And, yeah, we're just lucky. Rather be lucky than good.

Yeah. Yeah. And how about the, how well did the tanks work in the jungle as far as like once it was wet, once the rainy season comes? Tanks, the big ones? Or even the tracks that you drove. The mud and stuff was kind of tough. Yeah, it was tough. They took our neutral steer.

We didn't have that. And you just had the laterals and stuff to use because the neutral steer, you got one track going one way and one track going the other. And they'd throw tracks pretty easy in the mud. Yeah, so it was just right or left. Or back up. And then, so you got, you ended up getting wounded. How did you get wounded? I don't know, whether it's shrapnel from the RPG or we opened the breach of the 50

and a 50 cow blew up in my face and, you know, because we were firing so many rounds and stuff and you get cookoffs, you know, it just cooked off and we thought it was done. it wasn't boom and blew me off the track so it wasn't it i went to the medic you know because i had a little got hit in the eye that was it yeah you know it wasn't like i got shot or you know so is relatively you know absolutely you know absolutely well we'll think we'll be thankful about that one yeah yeah yeah when um when you would stay out how long would you guys stay out in the field for uh the long as we did was probably about, I'd say, six weeks.

I thought you were going to say, like, you know, a few days, three, four days, six weeks. Oh, that's when we were moving. And you guys would live out of your tracks. You guys must have gotten good at living out of your tracks. Yeah, we had everything on it. Yeah. Everything you own. Would you dig in at night or would you sleep in the tracks?

Like, I usually, like, it was raining or something like that. I'd throw a poncho up over the track and tie it down and sleep on one of the, stretchers that we carried and also how many guys were in a track when it was assigned to you and your track we had most of the recon tracks had five guys on it you had a driver main gunner two other guys had four guys and at first mine was like that and so we had four you know when you looked at it from like the big picture of what you guys were doing over there did you feel like Hey, we're making progress.

Did you feel like, hey, we're just trying to get by? Did you get any strategic guidance from up the chain of command? Like, hey, this is our purpose for being here? That's a tough question. Each day was different. We would have missions that we would go on. And sometimes we get hit. Sometimes we wouldn't.

And those missions would just be going into an area and checking it out. As far as accomplishing things, you know, it was an individual thing. I mean, it was not an individual like myself or anything, but I mean, as a group, you just, you know, go where they told you to and do what you could. Yeah, it was, you're talking about, is there an end result that we saw or? Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just asking, especially from like a leadership perspective. You know, I always talk about. about the fact that if your frontline troops don't really know what they're doing or why they're doing it, then eventually they don't see any purpose in what they're doing. And that's where you

start getting negative reactions, you know, whereas at least if you say, hey, look, this is what we're trying to get done today. We're trying to get this area cleared. We're trying to, this is going to contribute to this larger success or something like that. On that respect, yes. Yeah. But I mean, it was a big picture like the whole country and stuff. No, we didn't think too much about that. But our individual things, yeah. Okay, we know there's a bunker complex over here. We're going to go into it, you know. So you plan that strategically.

I mean, you have people out there. We have alerts and stuff, you know, but alert us of certain areas, hot spots or intelligence come down and say, okay, there's a thousand troops coming down through the Michelin, or there's a thousand troops coming out of the highlands, or there's a hundred troops over here, you know, that gets your blood pumping. because we're only six tracks.

Well, we had other, we worked with the 11th Cav, and I think it was the first 28th or something that worked with us. We worked with other companies, too. They would utilize us to go help them, or they would help us, or, you know. That's when we were like a ready reactionary force. You know, you'd go out and a base game got hit, you know, in the middle of the night,

so you're up at 2 o'clock in the morning trying to gather. all your troops and stuff out of their bunkers to run a road down to some base camp that's eventually going to get either overrun or, you know, they're blowing through the wire and they're coming inside the compound and stuff. So we're going to reinforce that. That had to be a tough, that tough kind of operation right there, just down of a deconfliction between, you know, if you've got bad guys that are inside the wire. No, that's nasty.

That's a scary thing, yeah. When you go into that, what's your, what's your, what's your, thought process going into that? Protect yourself and the guys around you. That's all you could do. I mean, it's just try to figure out the area they're coming in through. You know, they use a Bangalore torpedoes and stuff, blow holes in a wire, and they run on through.

And it's, you know, then okay, you're going to concentrate in that area. I know. So if a few of them get through, they get through. I mean, you have other infantry on the ground and stuff that they're dug in. You know, they're taking care of themselves, so they kind of know what's going on. It's kind of like you don't know everything that's going on, but you can see around you what's happening. So you try to diffuse that. Did you guys, when you guys would come back to base and you'd be in bunkers, you'd simply in the field, you'd simply get in artillery, you know, rocked with artillery.

And the rockets usually, yeah. Rockets, too. Oh, great. Would you guys, would you ever get? during your time there, would they ever let you go back to somewhere where you could get a break and get some R&R? They had any in, yeah, our longer missions and stuff, they'd do a little stand down and, you know, for three days or something, you know, go drink yourself silly and swim in the pool and... Where would you go for that? You know, I don't know exactly where it was.

It was someplace in the country. It's like down at Lichet or... or just outside Saigon. So occasionally they'd give you a little breather. Yeah, not much. You know, I mean, I went to Thailand and I went to Australia. You know, that was my big R&Rs and stuff, you know. But, you know, a few people go to Hawaii.

Yeah. I never, you know, I didn't want to do that. They'd come back and see their folks and stuff. It was kind of scary. Yeah. You mean scary from the fact that it's like, you know. No, what happens is he, especially if you, when we communicated with our people back here, it's usually by letter tape, you know, a cassette tape,

and they'd talk, and we'd talk and send it in the mail and stuff, you know. And so the guys that left and went to see, like, their loved ones and stuff, like in Hawaii and stuff, when they came back, their head's not, you know, it's not there. You know, it's kind of like, you know, Johnny ain't got the gun. Yeah, no. You know, it's not a good thing. Yeah, people, you know, I've talked about that with a bunch of people, but the fact that nowadays, and there's positives and there's negatives to it, right?

There's positives and there's, because nowadays, with the internet, you can literally go face-to-face with your family every night that you're not in the field. You can jump on there and you can talk to them and you can see them. And I don't know, I'm sure that's good for some people. for me that's not a good thing. For me, you know, when I was overseas, I was overseas. And I would talk to my wife and kids, like once a week. I'd call them.

We'd talk for five minutes. I'd ask them, how's, you know, the standard, whatever questions they are. How's school? How's everything going? Right. Okay. You know, daddy loves you.

We'll talk to you, you know, next week. And I'll tell you, even, I was very emotionally detached from my family. when I was overseas and it's hard to explain to people you know at that time I had three kids now I have four kids but You know I've told the story about the fact that my kids my wife said sent me an email it said oh can you take a picture of where you sleep at night because Because the kids want to see where you sleep and I and I we had an old Saddam Palace and I had one of the rooms there and I had a plywood You know bed with a crappy you know mattress on it and the plywood bed you know had like a headboard on it right but it was just blank it was just plywood sure and I took a picture of it on a little digital camera and I was

gonna send it to my wife and I looked at it and I realized it was that it was just there was nothing there so I opened up a folder that I had in a drawer and I took pictures of my wife and kids up and I and I hung them up oh cool and then I took a picture and then I took them back down I put them back in the folder I put them back in the drawer because man I didn't want to see and again this sounds horrible to say but it's it's directly related to what you you're saying is I didn't want to see my wife and my kids every single day every single morning when I woke up every single night before I went I didn't I didn't want to see them because I got a job to do and the people that I really need to

worry about this point were my guys and so I totally agree with that you know you you you want to have some sort of emotional detachment from your family now can you go too far with this absolutely you can go too far with this and now of a sudden you know you you you get too detached and your family doesn't mean anything to you anymore and that's going to be a problem as well so you but i think people got to pay attention to that and find that that that medium that happy medium where if they are still enough touch but it's not it's not dragging them off because you don't want to let that happen no you don't be focused on those other things when you need to focus on yeah you had your quiet time and stuff you can listen to the cassette you know and at least hear their voice or you get a care package or something, you know, it's got some good cookies in it from home or something like that. So, yeah, you take time in your bunker or whatever, you know, and you relax and you do that.

But, no, as far as running down to the Mars station, which I guess they had a Mars station somewhere in Vietnam, you know, where you could make a phone call back to the States. I mean, I never did. But, you know, a few people did, just by telephone. But now today, yeah, like you said, I mean, it's like you can see Daddy on a big screen, you know. The other thing that I think it happens is, is if you're worried about those things, you start to be less aggressive. And in my opinion, when you're less aggressive on the battlefield, you'll end up in more trouble than if you're offensive. Absolutely, yeah.

That's the guys that I ran with, they're pretty tough. group. I don't think as tight as you Navy SEALs guys are, but you know, all of us had a different story in life and and, but as far as getting the job done that we were out to do, we did a pretty good job, I

think. I'll tell you, I worked with all kinds of guys in the Army and the Marine Corps and the camaraderie in any military unit, especially once you're fighting hard, it's all awesome and it's all super tight. And I'm sure your guys going out on mission for six.

six weeks living in a track. Yeah, it could have been less than that. But, I mean, any time is a long time, you know, and you're spending the night. There was just one time when we were traveling and we were having supplies hard to keep up with us and stuff, you know, so it was, you know, no water, you know, the fuel. And, you ended up, you know, bathing in bomb craters and things like that. So, and then you don't know where you're going. I know I was a lousy map reader over there because everything's flat

So no GPS No no no GPS but somebody knew where they were going Yeah, I mean it's really the technological advances there are very very high You know we got the guys that will be looking at a map a moving map and it's shown exactly not only where you are But where all your other friendly guys are it's it's pretty impressive Yeah yeah so we had none of that So would you what would you have to pay attention to guys to make sure that I mean you know you're in that

sustained combat making sure that guys weren't getting to a point where you know they they needed a break my drivers and stuff were I went through quite a few drivers I mean not that they just went on to do something else I mean that was kind of their starting point and they drove for I mean, but you could tell. I mean, I had one driver. He just jumped out of the hats. We were getting fired at and stuff. He jumped out of the hats, and I was going to get back in, dude.

I'm not driving it. I'm on my 50, you know, and we're moving out of the area, you know, because we're getting away from what was happening because we regroup and go back in. And he goes, oh, I can't do it. And he's thrown up. And, you know, because he's scared. Yeah. He's scared.

A lot of guys are scared, you know. And mostly the drivers, because they're kind of confined, you know. And we're kind of freewheeling with the 50s and the 60s off the sides and stuff. So, yeah, you jump down and say, you know, get back in the track, them smack up side of the head. And you get in and then you leave. But then maybe you go back to base camp and say, maybe that's not the guy for this mission or these missions.

You know, so you go on and do something else. Well, it's an interesting dynamic because, I mean, I guess maybe you're just a mellow guy because you're telling these stories about doing this and doing that. And you're making it sound like you're going out to an out burger to grab a burger. And in reality, just to put it in perspective, some of the guys that you're with are scared and throwing up from fear. And so that's...

Yeah, that's horrible. You take care of those guys. You know, so you can get them back to base cap or whatever, you know. Or they overcome, you know, what was bothering them. Um, Rose is a perfect example. This kid from Des Moines, um, good, nice young kid and stuff, you know, but you couldn't shoot somebody one day. And, and, you know, so I, I grabbed the gun right out of his hand and shot the guy. So, but that was just one incident.

You know, we, we ran into some pretty heavy-duty guys. And, uh, they took out a track right in front of me and, and they were in a bunker and they were, they were doing some damage. and Rose just because he froze he froze he just can't do that so how'd you handle Rose after that he mellowed out a little bit and he ended up being a pretty good driver you know so I mean he got over that I think

but again that driver moved on it's another kind of misconception in the military that if you're in a leadership position you're just going to bark orders and you're going to yell and people are going to listen to you Because you, and you're just giving these beautiful examples of the fact that like, okay, you've got to have the understanding of the person. You got to, they're going to, people are going to make mistakes. People are going to get scared.

And it doesn't matter how mad you yell at them. It doesn't matter. Yeah, it won't help. You need to develop a relationship with them. You need to get to know them. You need to understand them. And then just because they, you know, you learn something about them if they have a shortfall like that. Like you said, maybe I'm not going to put him in that position again.

but where can I use this individual? Absolutely, yeah. And a lot of times people view the military, you know, especially when they see a full metal jacket where it's, you know, the drill sergeant yelling for 45 minutes in the movie or the drill instructor movie yelling for 45 minutes in the movie. They think that's what military leadership is. And the classic examples that you're talking about

of what real military leadership is like, and it's really it's the same as all leadership, but getting to know your people, building a team, figuring out what your mission is. And you're not better than they are, you know. And that was pointed out to me one time by a colonel. And you live with these guys. You live on the track with them, you know.

You live in the groups. The sergeants, you know, we'll get together and we'll have meetings and stuff, you know. And guys would be out on the tracks, cleaning, whatever they're doing. We happened to be filling sandbags one day. Got my shirt off, filling sandbags. You know, my guys actually were actually. one of my drivers was holding a bag and filling it and this colonel and he was in uh communications area he says sartan hall come here oh shoots okay and so i went in and says hey uh he goes

you see that shade over there i go yeah he'll go sit down in there and watch your guys fill sandbags i'm going whoa i'm going you know these guys are you know part of me he goes and he goes He said it doesn't matter. And you just sit in the shade, watch him do it. And he says, if you want to fill sandbikes, you know, I can make it so you can do that. And he was going to take rank from me, you know. And I said, well, okay. But I had to go and I explained to my guys.

I said, look, I'm sitting in the shade over here. You guys are filling sandbags. So, you know, little things like that. So what was his point in the same? His point was because I was a sergeant and they were privates and they should be doing the work and you're not. supposed to be you're supposed to be watching them do the work I'm going it was hard for me yeah but I'll tell you that you had better leadership instincts than your colonel at that point I guarantee it because that's that's what that's what makes your guys if you if your mentality is

hey my guys will respect me if I sit over here in the shade when they're working that's just the wrong mentality yeah they knew they knew what's going on yeah that's truly that's a again that's just It's a classic example of good leadership as opposed to what people think. Like, hey, the sergeant's going to be over here watching you with his hands in his pockets while you guys do the work. It's like, no, I'm actually going to be here with you guys. We're going to build, I'm part of the team. And there's times, of course there's times where you've got to go to a meeting. You know, you got to go.

And your team now looks at you like, hey, you go do your job and we're going to do our job. And at some point, when you have some spare time, you'll come help us with our job. And you know what? You're going to come back at some point and say, hey, I need help with this plan. I need help with getting these maps put together, getting these waypoints figured out or whatever. They're going to help you. And it's much more about building the team than it is to, that it is about, I'm going to tell you what to do. And I'm going to sit in the shade while you're filling sandbags.

As a matter of fact, our new book, we talk about the fact that, you know, Laif's platoon came back to a combat outpost. And there was a bunch of army guys. They were filling sandbags up. They actually weren't filling the sandbags. They were already filled, but they were moving the sandbags up to the rooftop of some of the buildings on the combat outpost. And Leif's like, hey, you know, my guys are going to help out. And, you know, it's like this, it's a small little, it's a small little, you know, indication of, hey, like you said, we're not better than you. Yeah.

We're here. We're going to bleed the same blood. We're going to sweat the same sweat. And we're going to fill and move the same sandbags. Another topic that's come up, some of the guys. Talking about Vietnam and believe it or not, I think it's, I think it's 60% roughly of the service members that fought in World War II.

It was higher, 60% were draftees. In Vietnam it was 25%. Now there's a bunch of reasons why people focus more on Vietnam draftees rather than World War II draftees because in World War II, the whole country was at war, right? The whole country was at war and it was Everything from hey, we're not gonna eat meat tonight or we're not gonna get new tires because we need that for the troops So the whole country is a war Vietnam was different than I mean as you said earlier

You know Vietnam War was happening and you were surfing yeah, you know and so when the draft started coming it was like okay It's it was a different reaction so I think that's part of it But I have I talk with a lot of companies now and people will bring up the question of millennials and hey, you know the millennials they don't want to work and it's really hard to work with them and and I've explained to a bunch of them now that in the Vietnam War they had soldiers, Marines that had been drafted, didn't want to go, had a normal job or had their life going on. In many cases, didn't believe in the war, didn't believe in what we were doing. And yet, good leaders would take those draftees and David Hackworth, who's a guy that I've read

his books and talk about him a lot, he loved his draftees. And he said, oh, yeah, those guys, they fought hard. if I was doing something stupid, they would tell me. I actually enjoyed having guys that would raise, because they weren't a career guy that's trying to kiss my ass and say, hey, that sounds great, boss. No, they'd say, hey, that's actually a dumb idea. And so this idea that these draftees were,

if the draftees were under good leadership, the leaders that I've had on here, I've had quite a few guys from Vietnam that were ground commanders in Vietnam, and they said, oh, I couldn't. tell the draftees from the from the lifeers because they all worked hard they all did their job whereas if you read people that maybe weren't good leaders that would have an attitude you know that was oh the draftees didn't want to do it did they

need they didn't work hard they didn't do their job it's to me it's not about the draft these to me it's about the leaders and you're a great example you know of of of a guy that not only said okay hey did you want to go to Vietnam in 1960 in 1968 getting pulled out of you know going to college and skiing and surfing no but guess what okay you're going to go do your job you not only did your job did it well and also stepped up and led other people that were in the same situation you were yeah i had great leaders to you know i mean the people we can look up to and we had this one uh lieutenant who became the captain of our outfit and he was

with another company and they were in a situation where almost all of them got sniped because we like the commanders and stuff the captain's lieutenants and the colonels they'd all right on the side of the track had a little chair for them there no makeshift something or other but they right on the side and they went into to in tainan a place called nubodan and i guess they sniped almost all of them Anyways, we got this lieutenant from there. He was, I don't know to say he's the last survivor, but I mean, he was one of those that didn't get sniped. And he became the leader of our great guy, great guy.

And but there were other ones too. I mean, everybody got along pretty good. I refused to go out one time on a mission. It was a S&D at night. And literally I didn't want to much want to go because I knew it was going to be a real cluster. And anytime you do run roads at night without knowing exactly where you're going or what you're doing,

you know, and they were just going to go out and search and destroy and see what they could run into. And I've been there a while, so I'm going. Problem with that was, I did, I kind of overstepped the lieutenant's authority a little bit and I talked to my captain and I'm just like I'm going to look

you know by the book the flame tracks was to stay inside the compound at night that's just somewhere I read it or something like that he wanted me to go with him and

I said I don't know so I talk to my captain anyways I didn't I didn't go I didn't have to go and they went out and they came back and they I'd bump one guy off, you know, on a hill someplace. You know, he ended up walking back into base camp, and the other guy broke his arm on a tree limb.

You know, you don't see it night too well. You can't go busting through the jungle with big lights on. And, but he got back at me. He goes, okay. So you're going to be protected at night. And not necessarily protected, but, I mean, you're inside the compound. I ended up, I had to take my two 60s off. My two guys that were on those 60s left.

And all I was left with was my 50 Cal, the flame, and my driver. So I'm going, whoa, that wasn't a good idea. Yeah, yeah. But it could have been worse if we've gone out on the mission. I don't know. Anyways. So later on in my time there, I became resupply sergeant in the field. This is kind of after, you know, we've been through quite a few fireflies and stuff.

And they said, okay, it's time to slow down a little bit. So I became resupply sergeant, but it was resupply in the field. So I was still running with the same guys I was with, except I got to fly a shit hook back and forth to someplace else to pick up fuel and food and stuff and then delivered to my guys. Unfortunately, that lieutenant's outfit got fuel last, they got food last, they got, you know. It's kind of chicken shit. I shouldn't really have done anything like that. But I was going to like took weapons away from me, man. I mean, that's my life.

We live out there. This is one of these things where, again, from my perspective, I was trying to look at things from a leadership perspective. If I've got an experienced guy that's telling me that something is wrong or telling me I should do something a different way, then I'm going to listen to him. That's what I'm going to do. And if you were telling me, hey, this doesn't make any sense to go out at night.

This is not a good idea. I'm going to say, you know what? Okay, let's reconsider why we're doing this mission and how we're going to execute this thing. To me, that's part of leadership. And again, if I took care of you by saying, okay, tell me, explain this to me. And we had a real conversation about why it is you don't think we should go out. Because maybe there's some things that I could have done to mitigate that. Say, you know what?

Since you are in the flame, maybe we'll put you in the back. We'll do something different. And then at a minimum, you, you are happy that I listen to you. I didn't just bark in order you know this is what we're going to do. Because what does that end up turning into? What that ends up turning into is you got a negative attitude towards me. And as a leader, I don't want you to have a negative attitude towards me because guess what you end up doing? You end up in a position where you're not giving me my reason for I wouldn't when I want it, which is, which is, again, these things just boil down to having respect up and down the chain of command.

And if you listen to the people below you in the chain of command, let's, let's ask this question. If I was in that guy's shoes, I'd say, okay, I got Sergeant Hall. He's telling me he doesn't want to go out. Why is he saying that? Let me listen to him. He's saying it's going to be hard to maneuver at night. He's got more experience than me. Maybe I should listen to him.

And on top of that, what am I going to accomplish tonight? Is it my ego that wants to go out? Because sometimes just, no, we're going to go out. No, no, Hall. You're going to listen to me. We're going to go out. And that just becomes my ego versus your ego. And of course can I win that contest?

Yes, because I outrank you. So we're going to do what I said. But how does that really help? It doesn't. It doesn't help bring our team together. So that's another thing to think about when it comes to just this stuff from a leadership perspective is if you listen to the people below you in the chain of command and you hear them out and you take into consideration what they're telling you, it is going to, number one, it's going to improve the way you do your job. because if who's smarter me who just got here or you

who've been here for eight months you're going to have more information you're going to know more than I do it's going to make me better if I listen and we're going to accomplish our mission better if I listen and on top of that it's going to strengthen the bonds that we have because we're reciprocating thought

between our brains and we're listening to each other and that brings us tighter together so these little leadership lessons are important there was no more s a day in at night after that mission though well there you go so so so and what did he prove by that you know I mean I bet your captain went to him said hey listen what you know hey listen lieutenant if you got Hall telling you we shouldn't be doing this I'll let you do it tonight

because you want to prove your little point but that's it basically yes yeah so so there you go so he he cost himself some leadership capital that actually ended up hurting him later on in the resupply I took care of his guys but I mean it looked like he was gonna get the last stuff I'd never do that to anybody Yeah, no, you took care of them, but you made him wait for it. Made a little point. Mr. Merva plantation was exciting. So we're cruising one day.

We're coming back at base camp, and we're all in a column. We're just cruising along, normal like. And the lead track takes a couple sniper rounds. You know, we're going, whoa, and we're coming from the hillside up here. So we pulled in a little half shoe, you know, and just let go. with 1850 calipers or 17, whatever it is, up into the hillside. It's all Michelin rubber

plantation stuff up in there. And then it quieted down. You know, nothing's coming back. We're going, okay, you know, things are over. I go to look at a quarter of my eye, and down the road, I can see dust coming down there, and here's a red, white, and blue. Ford Bronco,

fairly new one. I'm pretty sure it was blue. I know it was white and red, and it had some blue on it. And he comes in and he brodie's right into our little horseshoe there. He's going, what the heck? And he gets off, goes over and talks to the colonel. He's Colonel McKinsey here.

And Colonel jumps off the track and stuff, and this guy's sitting there, and he's doing like this. Oh, what the hell? He jumps back in. He's got his little plantation worker with him, too. He jumps back in his Bronco, and he takes off. And I walked over here and colonel, I says, well, why would that guy come in the middle of this little, the firefight. He goes, well, we pay $1,500 a piece

that guy for those trees and a 50 caliber hit that tree and bleed the tree out and bleeds the rubber out. So I was going, oh, that's a good gig. Sent his plantation and we'll go over there up there a couple pot shots, don't hit anybody. That's

one way to make money off the U.S. government. Oh, yeah. The Michelin plantation was pretty good. They had this thing, though, because there was a lot of movement down through the plantation, you know, of troops and stuff. So they came out with this idea about, okay, we'll have red zones and green zones. Red zone, anybody's inside the red zone, one clicks square, right? And anybody in the red zone, you know, that's free fire. And green zone, no, because you have the plantation workers, you know, stirring a pot and stuff.

Well, they used to melt right into the, and we get workers that we'd seen before that are in red zones. I'm going, this is going to work out good. So anyways, they stopped doing it. Yeah. That's my story. I'm sticking to it. Yeah. Like I said, that's one way to make money off the U.S. government for sure.

Wow. Unfortunately. So you ended up doing how long in Vietnam? 10 months, 22 days. And then that was shorter than a normal, normal tour? I get early out to go back to school. Company clerk one day came out in the field. He's delivering checks or money or whatever.

He says, you know, I'm sorry, and all you can get early out. They just approve something or rather I go, how do I do that? I'm up. He says, well, you just need a letter from school. You know, and I wrote my mom by mail. And sure or not, she registered me at the college. at Grisma College. And so I got out a little bit earlier.

And that was because Nixon was at this point looking to try and downsize. I think things are slowing down, yeah. Things are slowing down, you know, a little bit. So they wanted to get guys out. Hey, before we kind of wrap on Vietnam, but one more note that you made was about your medic. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I just wanted to touch on that one before we'd come back to you.

I wish I knew his name. I wish I knew his name. We got in the shit a little bit. And he was a CEO, a conscientious objector, and hell of a medic, rabious guy I ever knew. And one day we got in the shit and he was riding on my track. And he picked up a weapon from star firing. And to save his ass, you know, and ours, you know. And but he never did it again.

Never did it again. But then the rest of the time, you're saying he would? No, he'd brave. Yeah, he was insane. Good guy, really good guy. Yeah. And there's just, I mean, what kind of, that's an incredible, again, just talking about from a leadership perspective, you got a guy in your unit that's a conscientious objector that doesn't want to be at war. And yet, you got him out there and he's risking his life.

And even in the moment of truth, he actually steps up and. No, he can see what was happening. Yeah. Yeah. What was going on that he needed to step up? That's going to be a dire situation. Yeah, they were puffing up out of the bush pretty good, and I didn't have any control where they were or anything.

You know, you see guys over here, okay, you can probably over there, and they were starting to hit us from the rear, and he happened to be there. And so he picked up to 60 and started having it at it. What's the rule, like, what's the whole situation with a conscientious objector? He doesn't. It's one that serves. and but he doesn't want to

want to kill anybody I mean he doesn't want to you know carry weapons or anything I mean he wouldn't even carry a 45 he'd carry a medic bag and that's just cool with everybody and that's it so it's like an understood thing like hey I dig it your views on this whole thing

come do your job we don't expect you to fight or whatever right yeah there's there's but stop my bleeding oh yeah of course yes yes yeah and he was good at that yeah

how common is that it's not very it's not very very i don't think it's not very common i'd say it might have been more common in world war two only because i and this is like complete speculation on my part in vietnam someone that didn't want to fight was more apt to just run away to Canada or something or get a deferment for whatever you know medical or but it seems like in world war too again because the whole country was at war that they would be like well uh you know I'm just going to be a conscientious. And there's the movie about the guy that won the,

was awarded the Medal of Honor. Yeah. Yeah. He was a conscientious objector and he saved, what, like 75 or 100 people. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy stuff, yeah. And took massive risks to make it happen.

Does that go on now nowadays? Like, in Iraq or anything? I have never met a conscientious objector myself. No, so I don't know. I haven't heard of it lately. that was just something that was you know he's a great guy you know and he just didn't

that's okay he's a medic yeah I guess I guess it was bold I guess it really wouldn't go on now because there's no draft so if there's no draft you don't need to go so if you don't need to go you're just you just not go

yeah whereas Vietnam they had the draft yeah unless you know people they have their principles where they're like hey I want to go make a difference yeah but you know they're kind of detailed Maybe that person would go in the Peace Corps instead of the Marine Corps.

Or maybe be in resupply. There you go, yeah. They have options now, more. Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Yeah, I captured two guys over there one time. I know the medica, you get a little upset. And I was on a mission. We were tailing some guys that were surveyors or something like that and pulling security for them and stuff.

We were coming back, and I was on battalion radio. And this is after we got... We got overrun at Thunder 3 a few days later. And so we're cruising down the road, and I see this guy. And we had what they called Chuhoy back there, and we meant they give up. Open arms. Yeah.

And so he's Chuhoy, and he's got, you know, bandoliers across his chest and stuff. You know, he's in loincloth, and he was part of the 30 that hit our base camp two nights before that. And so I was last in the column. I was on battalion radio, and I was trying to get a hold of my guys on the company, and I'm on a battalion.

I'm going, hey, got guys out there. I need help out here. So anyway, we pulled over in the mud off the side of the road, and he's sitting in his little saddle on this hill. And so I got down and went up, took the mantelier off and stuff. He said something. He was talking. He was yelling in the back.

I was going, oh, shoot, there's going to be somebody else back there, right? And so I had, I think it was a tuggle. And I said, keep an eye. on this guy here you know he they had him and so I'm looking up oh I go up over the hill and here's this guy laying on the ground you got AK 47 beside him like this and he's laying on the ground I'm I'm going get up get up get up you know I was going he's going whatever the guy said was good because I didn't shoot that guy you know and so the other guy he goes okay well you know the poor guy he stood up I made it I made him stand up and his

calf was blown off from his knee to his ankle with only his bone you know and I was oh no so he left his AK on the ground and stuff so I went over to him and and I put him on my back because I was going to carry him out to the road on 13 by that time the medics had come out and stuff and then my guy couple of my guys on tracks and stuff were out too and so I put him on on my back and I carried him out and threw him in the back of the Jeep and this other medic grabbing by the hair stuck a 45 in the side of his head I said whoa whoa whoa what are you doing man I just carried him 50 yards across the street you know across the mud he's not going to do anything well you never know and I'm going look and his legs all blowing off his stuff that AK though was on

full automatic and he was going to go for it and in terms of interpreter talked to him and he says yeah he's pointing to the sky the night that the attack happened puff came by and and and he peppered the whole area and stuff you know it was beautiful sight you know a big ribbon of red and boom boom boom all around the compound and he must have got hit by it or something or either that or one of the cobras or something like that but yeah they did damage it's funny the interpreter came back and and and told me he says you know he's just like I'm like I thinks you're a doctor. And I go, what you mean?

He goes, yeah, because you helped him. And I was going, well, okay, whatever the mentality is. That guy was a sergeant. It was a staff sergeant, I think, in the NBA or something like that. You know, he was up there. And the other guy was like a captain or something like that. It was weird, you know, but they're little guys and stuff. Those guys.

And would you say that those guys would then turn to? be the full like help help out or they were a lot of times where they're reintegrated and into depending on what area they were there had come from and they'd find that out and then they did you know blend them back into the the society that was there I don't know I never saw him again so yeah that's that's another thing there's a lot of similarities or not a lot but there are definite similarities between, you know, what it was like for us over in Iraq. And, and I didn't fight in Afghanistan, but the guys that fight over there, you know, just to end in Vietnam,

just trying to tell who's a good guy and who's a bad guy. And it's, it's one of those things. It's, uh, there's no easy way to do it. No, there isn't. And a lot of the villages and stuff were pro-VC villages and stuff. And we knew that and the daytime was fine. At nighttime, I don't want to go through there. I know. We had some, some girl, um, get into our compound and once the gates were closed and stuff they found her inside and she was from the village which was a pro vc village and i don't know they got some intel and stuff from her and and all that and the next thing you know the recon's mounting up and they're going to take her back to the village and i go hey i'll go you know i'll ride a shotgun on 150 off of one of the recon tracks and uh so we

pulled into this village wish boned it you know and make sure and they kicked her out of the back of this track threw out of the bike and she's yelling all the time. She's yelling all the time. She'll kill me, they'll kill me. I'm, whoa. But the interpret goes, nah, it should be all right. I was going, whoa, okay, whatever. At that moment, though, when we did, we pulled into this village and stuff.

I saw this, what I thought was a head coming up over, one of the little hooches and stuff that they had almost fired, but didn't. And it ended up being like a palm fron or something. You know, just popping up over the ridge of

this hooch and something. So that was kind of scary. Yeah, I would think... The fun mission, though. The insurgents definitely in Iraq, if they found out, in Ramadi, if they found out that somebody was working with the coalition, they'd kill them. They'd skin them alive. They did that.

They'd behead them. It was pretty awful. The U.S. coalition forces were very careful not to ever indicate that any of the people that were working with the coalition. Especially when I first got... As the transition happened and the insurgents got, we're on the defensive more. And the local populace realized that we were going to stay and protect them.

They got more, we, they got more verbal about like, hey, no, there's a bad guy down there. And, and the momentum shifted towards the local populace just being like, hey, we're good, you're good. Those guys are bad. Yeah. And there was less fear. And that was really one of the tipping points. So you get this. early release program and how's that you just boom they pluck you out of

Vietnam you get a letter well how'd that go down um cup no actually the Colonel flew into where I was on this other track it was one of those command tracks and they had a little bubble on top yeah the five I think it's called a five seven seven whatever yeah I I don't remember one-one four is or something okay I think it was what it was and colonels colonel came flying out there in his and stuff and came into where we were staged and he says, Sergeant Hall, there's a ride out of here. What are you talking about?

He goes, no, he doesn't like sticking on the ground. There's a little loach, man. It was a great, great helicopter ride. And he goes, go. And I mean, I got a duffel bag and I started giving stuff away, my camera and my tape recorder and nothing, you know, and just grab what I could and jump on this helicopter. And boom, we were up in the air.

I was still trying to do the four-point buckle. I didn't know. I've never flown one of those little ones before, you know, trying to put the buckle on and stuff. He just reached over and went like that and was done. And they were up in the air, treetop, heading to Dao Chiang. And that was it. And went back to base camp, got my stuff out of the locker,

caught a ride on a, I don't know, was it a caribou? I don't remember. Anyways, got down to Tonsanoo, down Saigon and stuff. And it was quick. It was quick. Like, I missed the first flight, you know, and I was down in the shower and shaving. And the sergeant came up and says, hey, you just missed the champagne flight. It was a nice one, too.

And United Airlines, I think it was. And so I said, well, so I had to wait around another day. And then finally we left. and got on this world airlines. I don't know. It was either Korean or Japanese or something like that. But, yeah, they flew us home. Yeah, it was quick.

Now, you fly right back into San Diego? No, we went to San Francisco? Yeah, I went to Frisco, but we got de-roasted in Oakland or something, I think, it was, or whatever it was down there. And so they give you all your stuff, and you give them all your stuff, your stuff that you have, and it's military-wise. And they go, yeah, you can catch your cab out there at the airport. I said, okay, fine.

Went out there, took a PSA flight back. So now we're talking 1970. 1970. 1970. Yeah, February. So, and this is the height of the height of the anti-war movement. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that like?

Not too bad up there. San Diego and stuff who had some hippie guys out front when I came out and I wasn't really too worried. Glad to be home and stuff. I saw my brothers and stuff. That's spad on, you know, not spit on, but at my feet and, you know, it wasn't the baby killer stuff. I forget what he said, you know, but it was like, you ignorant ass. And this saw my brothers and stuff and took off. And that was really the extent of the, of the, of the, of the, of, of the war protesters that you saw some jackass at the airport. Yeah, yeah, that was it.

Was that, did you just look at it like you just did just now, which is like, yeah, whatever, this guy's an idiot. Yeah, I mean, what I do? Punch him. Yeah. At that point, I might have killed him. No, no, I, it just, you know, it's just like, it irritated me a little bit, but then I get it interfered, you know,

because my brother saw me and stuff, so. Brother John and Doug came pick me up. And then, so now, you know, You're done. So this is like, this is a period of what? Like three days, four days, five days or something like that? Less than five days. Less than five days you go from the jungles of Vietnam.

You drop you off and you're back in the world. And then you're back in the world. Yeah. Did they give you any kind of? No. There's a door right there. Get a cab. Oh, that's a funny thing too.

Because I went through the NCO school, right? So they had track of all the sergeants and stuff that were in Vietnam. And so moving back to Zeon, Zion, I think they had, you had to go through certain bungalows or buildings and stuff. And I went through Juan and he goes, he gave me your name and he marked it off. He goes, oh, you're one of them that made it. And I go, what do you mean? He says, yeah, you're on the list here. You made it.

Okay, fine. I didn't understand what it was, but they were counting how many NCOs from that. Period made it through Yeah, but no there wasn't there was no debriefing or or you know have a good time or you know This is what you should do or and Yeah, good job America Well, no, they didn't know. Yeah, they didn't know Yeah, until later on. Well, one of the big things that's pointed out a lot is in World War II when you finish World War II

At a minimum you got on a ship with and you talked about it you got on a ship with a ship with a flight and you got on a ship with 500 other guys, 1,000 other guys, and you rode with them for six weeks until you got back to America. And during that time, you talked about everything, and you kind of got it off your chest and out of your system. And then you got back, and you got that decompression time. We didn't even know what it was called.

But putting you, you know, from the jungles of Vietnam to Main Street, San Diego. Yeah. But how did you feel about it, though? Did know any different. You know, how was I supposed to feel? You know, I figured that happened to everybody. The only thing is that I had a family to go to, a lot of guys did.

Sorry. It's all good. Well, we're glad that you had a family and glad you came on home when you did. Did you jump right back into college? Yeah, that was a, yeah, that kind of blew that away. You know, take astrology, geometry, and whatever, and you get a class. It's all mixed up and that just wasn't for me. But I did get out.

And what are they going to do to send me back? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So. Oh, so you were still in the Army? They out-processed you. Yeah, okay. They out-processed you.

Yeah, but you're good for, you know, you're still in reserves or whatever it is for a couple years. So what did you do? What did you do when you got back? Kind of chilled for a while, you know. And then I went to work with my dad at the unemployment. unemployment. I did get unemployment for a year, I think it was, or six months or something like that. That's another funny story. You know, the people of the unemployment, you know, ask you, well, what did you do in the military? Or no, what do you want to do? And I go, I want to build wooden boats.

Well, we don't have any, you know, wooden boats builders. But they did in San Diego. And what did you do in the military? And, you know, sarcastic, the last I was. I said, well, I can. killed people you got any jobs for that you know I was just being sarcastic I don't know what to say I know but anyways I went to work for my dad and at the employment agency for a while then through that employment agency I got a job at a building material warehouse down in San Diego case products and I've worked there for quite a while for a little while but I'm used to met contract and stuff, you know, that came in there and they said, hey, you want to work on a weekend?

I said, yeah, you know, and before you know, I was working at a cabinet shop. And then after that, I was building houses. And then I worked for the gas company in the 80s, SDGNI for about eight years and stuff. And I never saw this little guy grow up or anything, you know. It was kind of like I worked at nights and days and afternoons. And then I got the job at the whole, then I quit that. include a lot of things during that period. Then I got the job at the Hotel Dell.

Nice. What point, how old were you when you had, Josh? I was 32, 33, 32. I got married when I was 32, so I was 33 or something like, yeah. Yeah, and then I got divorced when I was 42. Do you think you bounced around from a lot of jobs because you were looking for something like you didn't, You weren't quite sure what you wanted to do?

The SDG and Eva, that was a good job. You know, I mean, that was an excellent job. There was just a matter of finding a job. Yeah, you know, and people helping you and stuff, you know, and they go, because I didn't know, I was lost. You know, after, you know, the divorce and stuff, you know, I was just wandering, you know, in my mind and literally wandering. And then I worked the Thunderboat races.

for a long time during the 80s. And a couple of those guys said, hey, you know what, you ought to, you know, try to go to the Dell, you know. So I went down there and they go, what do you do? I said, well, I'm a carpenter. You know, I had been in the past. And, well, yeah, okay.

So they hired me for $10 an hour. I said, well, that's better than nothing. And it was. It was a good job. It was a good career route. So good family down at the hotel. Yeah. you got to be in Coronado.

Yeah, yeah. It was like a little, you know, go over the bridge, boom, your day's done, you know. It was like a little Disneyland. Then this kid, he came along and was over there too, diligently doing his homework at 3.30 and afternoon, in the shop. All right, so that brings us to Josh. Yeah, uh-oh.

Josh Hall. And so did you, where did you guys actually live? Did you, you didn't live in the, okay, so you lived in Spring Valley, but you worked in Coronado. And that meant you spent a bunch of time in Coronado. Yeah, basically what had happened, I think I was nine when you guys got divorced, 10.

So I stayed in my mom's place in Claremont for two more years, and then the middle eighth grade, I'm like, this isn't a good scene. So called him up, and he came and got me, and that was it. I lived the rest of, we finished out eighth grade in Claremont, and then lived in La Mesa, well, Spring Valley, and would go over the bridge.

bridge together every day and it worked out i played i didn't play three seasons of sports but i played two played soccer for four years baseball for two and then golf for two so by time practice was over he was off work and we'd go home yeah so it was it was cool it was tough breaking in you know that i think out of my graduating class maybe i want to say up to 30 kids have been in school together since kindergarten and so when you're trying the new kid on the block and you know of course i had long blonde hair and was a surfer and wear Hawaiian shirts all the time. You know, it took, took about six months to kind of break in and make friends, but it was great. I wouldn't trade anything for going there. It was a great school to go to for four years. And a couple, three or four

families, like really brought me in and made me feel welcome. So it was a good move. So what years do you start surfing? How old were you started surfing? Well, really started surfing? I mean, I'd gone to the beach my whole life. We'd camped at South Carlsbad State Beach every summer. I mean, my grandpa boogieed into his 80s, literally, like we'd walk a boogie board down the stairs and get in the water. So I always grew up with it. I have an older half-brother that was a big-time surfer, but at that time, he wasn't the nurturing supportive type.

He was the more, I'm going to take you out and drown you type. So unfortunately, I kind of missed an early window to get started, but I'd say I really got into it around 14. End of eighth grade, you know, we were like all boogie board and whatever. And then by ninth grade, we got, you know, got into surfing with my first. friends from the great thing was is even living in Spring Valley every weekend my dad would drive us because my friends we all grew up in Claremont but before high school one of my best friends moved down to P.B and so basically all summer long that's where we lived all weekend long

that's where we lived and so thankfully to this guy he would drive me from Spring Valley on a Friday afternoon well we'd go home and then drive out and then he would come Sunday night pick me up and just surf the entire weekend yeah just yeah hang with hang with friends and So yeah, I was like 14, or freshman year of high school, pretty much, which is late now. I mean, most kids are surfing when they're like three now. Well, now their kids are, now their parents. They're pro by the time they're 14. Now their parents are pulling them out of school to homeschool and when they were six years old.

Yeah. So, and let's let's hear about, I mean, how did you start, how did you say to yourself, you know what? I like riding surfboards, but I want to start making them. It really started with ding repair and, you know, just I wanted to be a, sort of. I mean, we were all surfers. We had a huge group. We were called the Felspar Rat Pack, and there was 30 of us every weekend from Mission Bay High, Madison, Claremont, UC. I would show up and we would conglomerate at PV every weekend for like four years in a row. It was pretty incredible. And I just, I don't know, I had such an affinity for surfing. And in that neighborhood were a lot of people in the surfboard industry. You know, you had Bird Huffman had South Coast, Skip, and Hank had Harry's Surf Shop, and then Joe Roper used to have, like, his first original shop down there on Felsper,

but so these guys were around all the time. So it just kind of was like, well, that guy's making a living, building boards, you know, although they're complete legends in different ways, but that's how it started. I would, like, take boards home and ding repair and, you know, hack on my friend's boards and charge them 20 bucks. What about the fact that, okay, what years is this? This would be 90. So I went into high school 94, 95.

I graduated 98, so. So how did you go from being into like what a normal 90s surfer type of surfer and type of surfboard and type of attitude to being like, okay, you know what, I'm going to actually ride longer boards? I'm going to be more a traditional. Where did that come from? Well, to be honest, what really got us sparked in a, like, my group of friends in a surfing

was endless summer two had just come out. Like literally, I remember sitting in the third row watching it, and he was with me and my friend Joe, and it just was like, whoa. And just that kind of sparked, I think, the style of, like, that's how we want to serve. I never really, I think to this day, I've never ridden a proper shortboard.

I just, you know, and then what he could afford to get me too. You know, my first board was a broken and a half guy talking on a long board that got fixed at Island Surf, you know, and that's what I rode. And so that, that was the vehicle. And, you know, I think I got a couple swap meet scores for 50 bucks. Like a, I remember I had a rocket fish. So I did ride a couple smaller boards, but never a proper shortboard. You know, maybe, I guess I wasn't that, you know, like, I wasn't like a big guy, but I don't know. I just didn't.

I like the flow and just the style parts of it. And then right after Endless Summer 2, our local hero, Joel Tudor, came out with, I think, his first movie. And then that was like, okay, yeah, that's how we want to try to surf. And I'm still trying to surf. Is it everyone? Yeah. But yeah, so that was kind of the combo.

And again, I think it just was being able, you know, Mani down at Island Surf when we were in high school, you know, hooked us up on a board. And that's just how it was. That's how we started. oh well actually two so I guess I should backtrack right after that so I was playing baseball started in majors which is 11 and 12 and I went into pony league and I played two years in high school well my baseball coaches at Claremont own diamond glassing Bob Bochie so and all the kids on

the team were like La Jolla Shore script you know rusty rippers right they're all riding their shortboards and so that kind of I was like oh okay and just being able to go to a factory then you know they they wouldn't let you look in a room you couldn't ask a question they would just be like get the bail you know like we'll build your board but don't you like don't go nose in and around you know that's how it happened we ordered a Bob through Bob Roger Beale shaped me like a two plus one high pro 90s perfect 90s long board and then my next board that one broke broke in half and then the next board it was pretty classic the start of my sophomore year I

broke my leg and soccer and my board, well, broke the board first, then my leg and soccer the next week. So I started the school year out on crutches. That was pretty funny. But the next two boards I got were it was a Stu Kenson, 90s high pro, you know, long board. And then Joel's movie came out. And I went, oh, I want a 9-4 round pin single pin. And so we went back to Bob, and Bob's like, yeah, yeah, Stu can shape anything. And what's crazy looking back now is when I went to order that board,

board, Stu was like, hey, come in my room, check this out. You should get one of these. And it was the first six-six karma model that he had shaped for Joel, right? So anyway, so that, yeah, that's how. We had that crazy end with the bocys, you know, as a baseball coach, but owner of, you know, one of the biggest glass shops, I think, in surfboard history. Yeah. And it's, and you still, at some point, your brain is saying, I just don't want to ride these boards. I want to, I want to, I want to shape these boards. Yeah. How old were you when you said to yourself,

I'm going to shape a board? I don't know. 16? The fun, okay, so. Do you watch Morning of the Earth or something? No, no, not. No, I didn't even know about that. It was just, it was more like,

we would watch the shortboard videos, like all the lost videos and, you know, and that's what we'd watch, like the Taylor Steel stuff, like momentum and focus. Like, that's what we watched. But somehow, like, I ended up just being the long boarder in the group. So did my friend Joe. but I think it was just

I wanted, you know, he was a carpenter so I think I kind of have that in my jeans. And I really just wanted an excuse to be able to keep surfing as long as possible, you know. And I thought, well,

you know, shaping boards might be the way. And, you know, he came down, dropped me off on a Friday or whatever and Skip was out picking up trash. And I was like, dad,

I really want to, you know, maybe, Maybe I could watch him shape a board, right? And so he goes, okay, I'll go ask him. And he gets out, and I'm like sliding down on my dad's truck. Oh, my gosh. Super embarrassed. Tell us about, you know, obviously not everyone that listens to this podcast, surfs.

And even some people that surf, well, no, most people that surf. Tell us about Skip Fry. Well, yeah, Skip Frye, he is, I mean, he's such a legend. It's hard to, I mean, original surfer shaper from San Diego, grew up in Bay Park. went to Hawaii with the wind and sea crew back in the day and really became one of the top surfers in that era and still is and he I mean I my words aren't going to do him any justice but he's sort of the kind of the one of the last guys from say the golden era you know in that that mid to late 60s that really designed and surfed and tested and you know and would go back and

redesign and retest and uh of that era that's still around he's still doing it he's 77 and he's more stoked now. He's changing his fins. Oh, I did, you know, I wrote this board with this fin set up. And I mean, that's the first 10 minutes of any conversation with him. Not like, oh, however the waves. He's like, no, no, but I rode the, you know, he's just to see somebody at 77 is stoked as a 14 year old. That's, that's skip.

I mean, again, I can't, I can't do him any justice as far as what he means to, not just me, but the sport in general. I mean, he really is our compass for. Yeah, yeah, it's, I'm sitting here as you're. sitting here as you're sitting there struggling to describe how you would describe skip and what he means in surfing um you know i guess i guess just the word legend like he's he is he's the legendary shaper surfer yeah um he's sort of the the pinnacle of what that means and if you say his name everyone just goes oh yeah well that's that's skip fry yeah um and and at some point so so so so your dad You know, Dave, you just said, okay, well, I'll go ask him.

I don't care. I'll go talk to him. I told him, I said, he's just a man, you know. And, you know, and I went up and I said, excuse me, Mr. Frye. And I asked him, I said, hey, can my son watch his shape of a board? And he goes, nah, you know, I got burnt by somebody or something like that, you know, and took some of his shapes, and I don't really do that. But he says, you know what?

I'll watch him in the water. and just check them out. And then it went from there. Yeah, really was just an organic thing. So I was 18, San Diego State. I went to state on grant money because my mom wasn't around and he didn't really make that much money, you know, at the time. And so I get this grant check.

My freshman fall semester, you know, and I'm going, well, wait, okay, I've already got books. Schools paid for it. And I've got that much money left. went down and at that point you'd walk into harry's donna was at the desk you'd talk about what you'd want and she'd go okay go to mitches here get this blank you'd wait for a week get the blank go back and then you'd hopefully talk to skip you know a lot of people donna would just deal with but thankfully uh skip came out and he's like what do you want and i go well i know your boards are

really different from everybody that in the neighborhood that rides them you know you can ride a fry you probably won't write other boards and so i just kind of want to introductory model you know what would be a good representation for me to to learn you know want to surf your style of boards and so it was a nine six egg two plus one and anyway so when i dropped the blank off until the shape came it was about three months and just organically from surfing again his shop was on the street that i grew up surfing so we'd see each other in the water um i donna kind of i you know struck up i'm in a relationship with her she kind of took me under her wing is like one of her kids quote unquote and and and just organically became closer and closer with them to where finally i got the call he goes uh hey uh you're up i'm gonna shape your board tomorrow why don't you come down and we'll go for a surf um and then i'll shape your board and you can watch and i go all right i was like freaking out i mean i'm like running across campus right to get home and like go home and tell my dad and so that's that's what went down we met at the shop the next day

And he pulled out two of his personal, nine six eggs, and we walked around the corner, down the stairs. All my friends were across the street sitting on their tailgates like, what? You're getting to write a skips personal? And then, you know, and we went out and surf really fun PB, like, for a couple hours, like a really good session. And we went into the room and I just sat on the toolbox.

And it was, I don't know, it felt like it was like 10 hours long, but it probably was only a couple hours. But, man, I was jacked. I was so jacked that driving home, I almost fell asleep driving home, you know? And you hadn't shaped a board at this point? We, okay, so the summer after my senior year, I just was like, I'm going to go for it. And he let me build a proper size shaping room in the garage. So I'd worked, there's a wall in Coronado across from the golf course that I spent

all summer working with a master bricklayer. And so I made good money. And so he put it into a shaping room and literally split the garage in half. I had an 8 by 16 by 8, right? So a proper, even by today's standard, it's a proper room. And so I had that prior to, you know, the board was coming from Skip. And so that was built. I got to watch that.

And I think the very next week I got a blank and went for it, you know, and then, of course, butchered it. I don't even think that one got glassed. But I actually think we tried to thin it out with a router. Imagine how many passes. That's a half inch route. You know, I mean. Didn't know.

See, back then there was no. I didn't have a planer then. All the old guys were like, piss off, Grom. Like, I'm not telling you how to do that or what tool to use or like figure it out. And there's no YouTube at this point to go and just watch everyone shapeboards. Yeah, so you really were just literally on your own. And yeah, so we butchered that first blank and then got to watch Skip, shape that egg. And then I went back and went, okay, and I had a little more, you know, with the leftover money from

the from building that wall I bought a planer and then slowly started he got me a block plane in a sure form right so kind of just real slowly put the pieces together like okay I can at least thin this thing out and not you know but and then so with with that was 98 uh fall of 98 spring of 99 and so for like the next two and a half three years like every day was surfing with skip and watching him like that's just what went down like I just go and hang out He wouldn't even say anything to me and I'd just hang out in the corner of the room, you know, and I'd do errands for Donna or I'd watch the shop if they had to go to a lunch meeting or whatever. Yeah, that was a real, real special time to be able to do that. Of every person that would have wanted to be in that position, what do you think it was that he saw on you that said, you know what?

Oh, man. I'm good with this kid. I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah, I really don't know because there's been dozens of other people that have probably tried to put themselves in that same position. And I don't know. I think part of it was maybe having Donna be like, yeah, this is a good kid. You know, he's one of my kids. There's another guy, Ryan Levinson, that she kind of gave the same title to. And so we were around a lot. And I think slowly, you know, I would, you know, Skip saw who I was and my demeanor and that type of thing and how stoked I was, of course. I mean, how could you not be? But so, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Look where we're at now.

It's blowing my mind. At what point did he let you take a pass with a planer? Well, you know what? I haven't. I didn't. I didn't in his room. But the way just going and watching and talking and having him show me this, I would go home and literally repeat that step, you know?

So it was kind of like, it wasn't until later on that we started kind of building. We felt maybe 10 or 12 boards together where, you know, all thin one out and template it and he'll finish it or vice versa. But yeah, those early years, it just was like studying, watching.

I don't know if that's just how I grew up. Like, that's how I started playing golf because I'd watch golf on the, on the weekends with my grandma all the time. And then I'd go out and hack dirt all over the middle of the street. But that, you know, just like by watching and doing,

watching and doing, I don't know. So that's kind of how. that came about and then what was the growth of from you butchering blanks to you selling a blank for or selling a board that you shaped for to break even and then to eventually make you know yeah bucks 30 bucks 50 bucks I mean so yeah I shape the first part I shaped was a 9 5 long board and then the second one was a rocket fish and then that whole crew that I grew up with at the beach like oh you're building boards and like well yeah I want to build you one you know

just charge you half the blank cost and so if it's a long board blanks are a hundred bucks charge you 50 bucks and then thank you know roper Joe Roper had his ding repair down on marina boulevard and he would glass him in fact that was really cool too and skip shaped that board he goes okay you can take it over to Joe's because he would always take it to the glasser right so that was really cool so Joe glass my first fry and my first board I ever shaped so that's pretty kind of a cool little story there. But yeah, Joe would do that. And he still does it.

He still glasses kids like me now building their first, second, third, tenth board, and he's glassing him still. It's really cool. So then it just started escalating. And you started actually where someone outside of your crew says, hey, I wouldn't mind one of those boards too. And now you can charge him the full price of a blank instead of half of it. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess kind of. I mean, so there was sort of a, I went to Spain for my fourth year of. school, right, for a year, well, 11 months. And so I didn't do any shaping, of course, and hardly any surfing. So there's a number of boards out there. I think I want to say there's about 75 boards that were shaped prior to that. I mean, I was doing one a month, maybe, you know, or maybe two a month most. And then that was what we called the Spring Valley New Era, or excuse me, all my, the numbers were SV1, right? Spring Valley, which is classic, because

here we are in PV, but I'm shaping them in Spring Valley. So then when I came back, it was SVNE, like Spring Valley New Era. And that, I was like, yeah, I really want to do this. But I also wanted to finish school. I got a degree in Spanish lit from San Diego State. While I was studying in Spain, a friend came over. Did you have any kind of plans, like to do anything with that degree? Yeah.

So my best friend. So at some point you're going to be a normal person. Yeah, in my head, I'm thinking, wow, teachers have 180 days a year off. That's sick. right so that kind of was the plan I went in for international business and they go look it's going to take you seven years to get out of here and I'm like I don't want to be in college seven years so I went in with a high level of Spanish that I went right into upper division Spanish there so I knew I could graduate quicker with a Spanish degree than trying to go excuse me international

business so that's but when I went to Spain my whole world got turned into the wine business because a friend of mine had graduated and I'm like what are you doing over here he's like We traveled for a month together. It was pretty amazing. And he goes, well, be a wine importer. And so our Spanish teacher from high school was like, okay, well, his name was Tom. Tom, you put it together and I'll give you guys a little bit of backing and see what it happens. And so I came back for my year.

The company got formed. He had gotten all the license. And literally a month before I graduated, two containers of wine landed in San Diego. And he was like, well, you're ready to sell some wine? And we didn't know anything about anything. We just knew that we had wine and we had to go sell it. So I did that for three years. And I call it my MBA in real life, you know, because it was gnarly.

Everything I'd gone through by the time I was 23 was like what most people go through corporate-wise. I mean, we had corporate dissolutions, you know, $500 an hour lawyers, all that stuff. And I had to learn quick books because I had to take care of all the accounting and all the money and write all the checks. And so that's kind of what thrusted me right into like being sort of a bit. I mean, I was a business owner. I was 50% of the business.

And it was do this or like fail, you know, but still living at home. Right. I'd graduated, still living at home, not getting paid. So it wasn't like it was going, but it wasn't real. Like the numbers weren't real. We're like selling cases of wine, paying rent. We might get out 200 bucks, you know. So it was a very brutally, like, difficult time to,

to be 22, 23 and completely struggling and completely broke for three years. And you're still shaping? Yeah. Yeah. So the shaping room was still in the garage. So again, I would do one a month maybe, two a month. Surfing not as much as I used to because now this is like a sink or swim type of deal here with the wine business.

So a lot of, I mean, we're long hours, you know, and brutal and not getting paid. like, or maybe paid one month and the not paid for two months. And, you know, and then partnership with investor struggles and, you know, where I don't even talk to him anymore, you know, my old business partner. Thankfully, my friendship with our teacher is still super tight. He's like my best friend. And that survived. But the real world experience I got out of that, all the contacts and cold calling, I mean,

we went from zero to 185 accounts in a year. I don't know how to anything about wine yet. You know, I learned a lot quick, but just that daily brutal cold call, cold knock, hey, and they're like, who are you? You know, all the old guys that have been in it for 30 years? Like, who the fuck are you guys? Like, but we, it was unique because we were the importer and distributor. So we kind of had a position of like, like, well, you guys get to go to Spain? Like, yeah, we were in Spain.

You know, my partner just went to Chile to get the wine. So it was legit, but we were like these young kids, you know, pretty. That was, it was, that was a gnarly three years. And I came out of that pretty spun out. And then at the end of that, it just did it go under? Did it? Basically, my partner got married. And then he got, he got pregnant.

And cheated. Well, you know what I mean. They got pregnant. And I'm just like, are you? What? How? Like, I'm living at home. Not getting paid.

You're like getting ready to have a kid. So what had happened is he got, he went and got a real job working for another importer of produce. And then so he's like, I want out. I'll let, it's yours. I was like, no, no, I don't. I'm like, I want out, dude. Like, you know, and so we worked it out. He moved on.

I consolidated a distributor friend of mine, Jerry Hark, saved my ass. Let me put my wine in his warehouse so I could get out of a $2,500 a month lease. Props to Jerry. Still see him around. He's still in the wine business. Legend of a human. And then I remember, I was at a, and the whole time I'm surfing from PeeB Surf Club. I'm doing the coalition contest and I'm walking, having this last talk with my ex-business partner about, I'm like, look, I want out, man, I'm done.

And so we kind of made an agreement. And I remember I was in the parking lot at Malibu, and that's when I decided I'm like, I'm over this. And I call him like, done. And so Jerry helped me get out of it. Malibu helped me see the light. Sometimes. And Jerry worked with me and we got all the wine into his place and he helped. sell it off and I did the full, I had to, you know, go back to the lawyer and pay for the

dissolution agreement, all that stuff and walked away. And that was like the end of 2005. So it was only about two and a half years, almost three years. And then after that, I was done. I was burnt. I go, I'm going to go back in the restaurant because I work tables at a place in Quigs, which is now, what's it called, Wonderland down there. Yeah. So I worked there. Great crew back then. And so I went back and I go, hey, would you guys mind? Now I have some wine industry experience. So now it's like, yeah, yeah, come on in. And so they took me right back in. And for six months, I just did that. I just, I worked there. And I also worked at the Wine Vault Estro down on the Indian Street because Chris would always taste our wines and give us tasting notes,

whether he hated it or liked it, right? And they, he had just opened up a restaurant. So I went down and helped them almost for about a year and a half after I started Josh Hall Surfboards officially in July of 2006. And after the wine, I sat, I called Skip and Don, we had dinner, go look guys, like, you know, you've obviously seen the history of the last three years, whatever, we've gone, I want to build boards, I'm going to go for it.

And they both gave me their blessing, they said, whatever we can do to help support you, you know, you have our support and go for it. And so that's what kind of put it on full blast. And then what did that look like? What did full support from Skip and Donna Frye look like? Well, just like they were there. They weren't bombed on the fact that, you know, and they obviously, besides those first

couple custom boards, skip and started shaping everything I rode. And then I had access to his quiver. So his boards shaped how I served. And in my head, I go, well, hmm, that's funny. Not many other people shaped boards like this might be a good idea to maybe pay attention and start. So the boards that were building, although bricks compared to now, were in that style. And they knew that.

So a lot of the models, it's like, I'm not going to learn one thing and then go, oh, I'm going to go over here and recreate a wheel. And so I've just tried to take those initial formative years and with how I surf and other influences and put together what we've got. But it was just, it was good for me to know that they had my back, you know, anything, anything I needed, I mean, support-wise, or, I mean, Skip and I were still surfing together all the time he's taking me, you know, he took me to Malibu, the first time, Swamis, Cliffs, Sano.

He really, it wasn't just the board thing. It was wind, tide weather, swell direction, interval, this reef, that reef. Because I'd have windows at school. Hey, Skip, I got two hours. And he go, do, do, do, do, go here. You know, and sure enough, it'd show up at a place and get waves. So it was more schooly than just the board stuff. What was the escalation looking like in terms of going from where, you know, you start Josh Hall surfboards to where, I mean, you know, obviously when you started off,

You've got to sell some of the boards. You've got to get some of them one or two or three. And then eventually the word gets out there. And, you know, how long does it take before you go, before you're actually have a full-time job shaping boards? Well, it's pretty, it's funny because so when I got back from that Spain trip, Skip had moved to where he's at now. And his neighbor is Chris Christensen, famous, super famous shaper.

And so we became friends. And when I came back, so my senior year, I worked for him, just doing shop rat stuff, sweeping up, cleaning the shaping room, trash, packing boards, right? Well, when this wine thing came about, there was a guy, Jeff McCallum, who's now also a super famous shaper. He came into town, went to San Diego State, and he worked at a surf shop on Garnett, and he grew up surfing Crystal Pier. And so I go, hey, man, like, would you ever want to work at a surf shop? And I kind of knew, like, he was, like, into the board thing. and he goes, yeah. And so I said, okay, well, call this guy.

And so he kind of took my position at Chris's, and he got really into it. He was, you know, Chris let him shape at night in his room and then glass and do, and so he took everything. I'm building all these things start to finish. And that lasted up until my fallout with the wine thing started coming. Jeff goes, hey, I'm looking for a space.

Would you want a room, rent a room from me? I go, yeah. And so we found a place over off Hancock. Street, 2006, July 4th, we both shaped our first boards, and that's how it started. So it was kind of a cool, like, I got him into Chris, but then he gave me the opportunity to leave Spring Valley, right? I was living in PB at the time. And that was it. But as far as getting busy, it wasn't until like probably 2010. I mean, I worked at, I worked at three or four different restaurants. I actually worked this, I tried to work a summer at the Dell as like a valet

greeter at the beach village, but it was like eight-hour shifts till three in the morning, and then I'd wake up from not sleeping. But yeah, it was tough. As soon as I think I'd be busy enough, like, oh, I can pay rent and you know, all my stuff. Yeah, right, I'd go in the hole.

I got to get some catering, I did catering jobs because it was quick, big money. So it took a lot of pieces. And then I went to New York in 2009 for the Surfe Film Festival there and I met my friend Sancho. who was big surfer in the Basque Country of Spain,

also family owns one of the most massive wineries in Rioja. So we hit it off right away, you know, speak in Spanish. And he was like, yeah, well, why don't you try to come over? You know, I have some friends that have small shops. Maybe you could come over and shape some boards. So that was the fall. I left my, the day before, the October 20th, my birthday is the 22nd. And I spent six weeks.

And I traveled, found him in his family's winery, did that. He took me up to the Basque Country. and introduced me a couple people. I built some boards there. I went down to Portugal and built like five or six boards at a factory down there. So it was like, oh, okay, this has potential. Next summer, I went back for eight weeks.

Summer after that, I did 10 weeks. So that helped. Because that was extra income. The euro was super strong. So it kind of helped. And I was paying rent at my place here, right? But I just, and yeah, so since 2010, it's just been on a slow growth pattern.

You know, I didn't come out with any marketing plans or, I mean, the main thing was just try to shape a decent board. Yeah, I was going to say your marketing plan is to make really good boards. Yeah, yeah. And I was thankful to work with some of the best glass shops too, which helps because it makes it look pretty. But, man, I'd give money back on my first thousand. Maybe I shouldn't say that. But, yeah, still trying to figure it out, you know. Those have the, what is it, a sentimental value.

Yeah. Yeah, I still get hit up. Hey, I got number 38. And you're like, oh, I'm sorry. I know. This was his first logo. Yeah. Yeah.

So that was a real cool story there. It's like it's kelp around a J.H. With like, blue water in the background. And that was my friend's wife who's a watercolor artist. And I was like, she's like, because I first, I don't know, 30 or 40 boards and have any logos, right? Because it wasn't like you could just go to Kinkos and have them print up rice paper, however you did it. And she's like, oh. I drew this logo as thinking about you and your vibe and your energy, right?

And she came up with that the first time. And it, you know, bitching sits on a board nice. And so we ran with that for, I don't know, probably 12, 1,300 boards as the first logo. It's more of sense. Do you know how many boards you've shaped now? I'm just about at 4,200 right around that number. Yeah. I don't have everyone documented, you know, but I know the numbers that I did in Spring Valley,

the ones I did, the first factory with Jeff. And then I moved, actually, in 2009, I moved to where Skip was at. There's still four or five other shapers in there. And so I remember the numbers, but I don't have it like to the actual board. You know, I know, I think it's Harbor. I think Harbor has every board ever shaped, documented. Like you can, hey, I got this 7-8 with this number and they can look it up and it pops up. Yeah, yeah, who shaped it.

It or, yeah. So, but, yeah, around 4,200. So not that many. People, I don't know if people think I've shaped more or less. I don't know. Yeah. Feels like a lot, because a lot of what I do is big volume boards, you know, long boards and big boards. You get four of them out of a 12-foot or four short boards.

You know, it's one of the things where people ask a lot about mentorship, right? They say, oh, what, and for me, I never really had, like, the mentorship that you get from Skip or that you've gotten from Skip and that you continue to get from Skip. that's like the most pure solid well-rounded mentorship I never got like anyone in the in the SEAL teams that was just giving me all that you know everything and I don't say that in a negative way I mean there's plenty of guys that helped me out and I learned a ton but I always had to kind of pick from like hey this guy would teach me about this and then someone else would teach me about something else but I think just the the idea of like how you approached Skip who you'd You know, not exactly a guy that is looking to bring on a bunch of people to mentor. I mean, I'd say anything but that, really. And yet you ended up in a position where you get to absorb as much knowledge as you can possibly get from them. You know, that's an endless, you know, infinite amount of information. But actually, I think it was Joel.

I think Joel was telling me that he could be like, he'd like look at the weather and he'd be like, oh, you need to go here at 2.30 in the afternoon. And it's going to be good for about 48 minutes. like that kind of thing. He said it's his knowledge of the water, the wind, the tides. Exactly. And that's, so I'd be at State coming down with my board,

my car, hey, Skip, we're, you know, I've got two hours. We're, you know, I'll go here. And sure enough, you know. And then just surfing with them, man, we'd go down and do the cliffs runs. Those are like some of the most amazing sessions ever, you know. We've had a couple birthday sessions. My birthday in October

with decent size South swells on our 10, 6, and 11 foot boards going eight down and three up and it's amazing. Yeah, it's hard. You don't see people, you don't really see many people doing that much anymore, you know? It's just, yeah. I hope Skip gets back down there this winter though.

Yeah, yeah, and I think just again, that's like almost advice is like what the approach you took was, hey, be humble, be persistent, you know, show up, absorb, don't run your mouth, you know, you weren't like, hey, can you be my mentor? Hey, can you be my mentor? Hey, can you be my, it's like, you know, hey, do you mind if I just sit over here and just watch? Yeah. Like, and you prove that over time. Hey, and then he's probably watching you surf and he's watching you. I'm sure you were bringing him boards and going, hey, what do you think of this? And he's probably having a chuckle at some of them. And then at least being able to say, hey, a little bit of this, a little bit of

that's going to get you where you want to be. You know, fin templates or where to put the fins and all that stuff. I mean, I still get nervous to ask him for stuff. I mean, we're like tight and it's still, I go, skip, what do you think about? You know, and that's the other thing. He's so giving. He's like, he'll give it all the way. You know what I mean? He really is this most humble giving person. When I was, let's see, I guess it was maybe 10, you know, maybe a little bit longer that years ago, but, you know, my son surfs and he's, he loves surfing and he's been surfing since he was a little kid. I remember I got a story Okay

A couple Well we we would see Occasionally we'd see skip Yeah And and you know I'd tell like hey That's skip right over there That's he didn't meet him

You know You know At this time He used to ride this red foamy It was I forget But it was like as nice of a foamy As you could get

But you know he was eight years old And I would take him out on big days I mean he would serve every swell But then, you know, I was still in the Navy. Okay. And, you know, he really wanted to skip. And he wanted to skip bad. And, you know, I was a dad in the Navy with no money.

And how am I going to get my son to skip? Because they cost a lot of money. And eventually I got a guy up in like Dana Point. And I found it on Craigslist. And he had the most absolutely. destroyed Skip that you've ever seen like an Ato, Winter Egg, and it was

$300. So you know what kind of condition it was in for $300 bucks? It was in awful condition. I drove up there, my van. I paid this guy $300, and that was Santa Claus brought, Santa Claus brought Skip Fry to my son. We still have that board, and he's like,

I'm never getting rid of this board. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Pretty sweet. That's funny. Your story about your son I'll never forget. It was North Garbage and surfed there a lot, you know, growing up. And it was a decent-sized day. And, you know, caught a wave and I'm going through. And I see you and your kid, like, just in, like, the danger zone.

And this is before it got really crowded with, you know, kind of the beginner surfers. This is still a crew back then holding it down. And I'm like, hey, man, you're going to get your kid hurt out here. And, like, this, like, 55-barreled drum, like, sits up and just looks at me. And I go, oh, I was like, I know that look. I'm like, oh, sorry, all right. And then I'm like, man, the guy's just going to get his,

and it was, it was Thor. I mean, it was that winter. I'm like, man. And then the next winter, taken off in the front of your house, and here it's to see him just getting shoved in in front of me. I'm like, that guy again.

God. And then I'm like, oh, sorry, yeah. You know, yeah, I remember those. I was cracking up once we became, once, you know, we reconnected. And I was like that was that guy man. I was like totally have hassling like there was no there was definitely people yeah because he was so young and I'd have him out on man days You know like straight man days where there's no there's no kids out you know I know I'm just like yelling at you're gonna hurt your kid man I'd always be chuckling they may be we'll see

Oh man I just and now like looking back it's just that was classic Yeah, but times though your kids turned into a good good good boy good kid. Yeah, he's He surfs a lot. I know that. I remember doing that. So what's the, what's, you know, where are you guys at right now? What's kind of, what's the status of Josh Hall surfboards at this moment? Okay, so flat, let's go from 2010, spent a big summer over in the Basque Country, just surfing and shape in.

And, and then coming back, I'd moved into the complex where Skip was at. Bob Mitzin's in there and Michael Miller and Jim Ellington. at the time. And all legend guys. And I would just, I would just shape, shape, shape. Okay, I'm going on another trip. Shape, shape, shape, going on another trip. And just slowly building.

You know, I got a website. I'm on my third website now. And so that helped. People could at least see models. And I had one guy, a Japanese guy at that time, selling mostly customs. He lived here, but he'd sell them and ship them. and then we parted ways. It's been six years ago.

And because I've seen Chris's model, Chris had a great distributorship in Japan. I was like, I want that, man, because it's like consistent boards every month, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30. Who knows what, you know, numbers he was doing. But I was like, that's how you make it. You know, you got to get a distributor. So we parted ways. I went to Japan for the Green Room Festival, which is like a music, art, surf-themed festival. and had a couple contacts here in California that were Japanese surfers.

And so they sort of fished around like, hey, you know, Josh Hall's coming to Japan. He wants to get a distributor to start, you know, doing some real business, not just, hey, I got 10 custom orders this month. Sweet. Oh, I don't have anything now for the next two weeks. Like something consistent. And that's who I found, Holy Smoke, who's my distributor now, Sioshi. And we're just September was six years.

So that's been great. Not a ton of boards, but consistent. And so that, once that happened, then it was like, okay, breather. Let's get caught up on some debt here so I can breathe. And then slowly go, you know, shop in New York. Started selling my boards quite a bit. And then just doing that. Then I'd go to Europe each summer and bang out, you know, 40, 50 boards.

And so it kind of had to go all over to get kind of a consistent base. Was there a tipping point where your boards sort of elevated to the status that they are now, where they went from like, hey, a surfboard to like, oh, that's a Josh Hall? Maybe. Maybe other people could say that better than me. I just still try to shape a better board

than I did yesterday. And I don't, I mean, again, I've been real fortunate to work with the best glass shops in San Diego, which helps. And thankfully, they worked with me. And that kind of helped. and I think with the consistency, I think the people seeing the consistency,

like, whoa, Josh is doing this in Japan, he's doing that. Maybe that's helped create. I used to go to New York twice a year for the fish fry event in May, then I'd go back in September for the film festival. So I think just the moving around, and maybe that helped create sort of that, like, whoa, well, those boards are New York, or I don't know.

I think somebody else might be able to answer that. Well, I mean, the other obvious huge thing is you're, like, you're just quite frank. known as Skip Fry's protege and that's what people think like oh maybe I can't get a skip fry because I don't have that much money or I don't have that much time or I just can't make it happen but man I can get a Josh Hall and that's a huge part of it too I mean obviously right yeah yeah that's I guess I should say that that's like the first thing yeah that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like it didn't go without saying for I mean you can't just show up oh yeah I'm

going to shape words like like skip fry does you know you can't that just doesn't that that That's not going to work. You got to earn that. And, you know, just because the board, oh, it looks like it might be like it. No, it's got to, it's got to have a little bit more depth than that. Yeah. I think at some point. And surfing.

I mean, I serve. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. Skip told me in the beginning, he goes, look, if you want to do this as a career or a hobby, like, if you want to surf, just worry about shape and don't try to do everything yourself. And there's craftsmen out there that do it. And I have hats off to them. I mean, I think I've built five or six boards maybe start to finish in my whole. time building boards.

So the guys that do that, I mean, that's hard work. I mean, you might be able to do four or six boards a week like that if you're laminating, finning,

sanding, you know, all that polishing. I mean, that's tough. So I guess I just wanted to surf and then build boards. Yeah,

and you've got to have all those skill sets because none of those things are easy. No. And I tell you what, well, we'll get to where the position I'm at now,

but there is a severe lack of talent in the pool right now. Now, most of my crew now that is working for me, they've been building boards longer and I've been alive. And if one of them goes down, like, we're up shit creek. And so, and it's really, and that's something that's changed with, like you said earlier, with YouTube and the internet, like a kid that wants to shape a board now can go, do, da, da, da, oh, I can buy a package.

Oh, sweet. I don't even have to think about it. And they can go online and watch this guy's shape or watch that guy's shape. So now it's not where sort of, you know. You know, you had to pay dues back when I wanted to learn. Like, you had, again, packing boards and sweeping up the shaping room. And then maybe a little hot coat here. And then you might try to sand here.

But it was like baby steps, you know, because it was having to learn from the ground up. And now the big shift is everybody just goes straight to the top. They don't want to mess with resin or sandboards and get fiberglass in their pores. And, you know, it's a, and it's so hard. And that's one thing. People, what makes a quality board? It's like everything makes a quality board. board and you know

the sanders got to re-sand it to my shape based on how good his hot coat was set up and how clean the fin cut I mean so I don't take it for granted because I get around enough to see other boards that are out there but then when I come back to our shop it's like okay yeah

I can see the difference in quality and it's and it's funny it's only been three and a half years now with the shop which I'll get to that story but what we're what the crew what we try to like fix now are like minute little things compared to three years ago when we started. And again, you know, it takes adjustment to the room you're in.

It takes the light, whatever. It takes time to gel and the team's going pretty good. Yeah. And so right now it's... Yeah, so three and a half years ago, again, Jeff McCallum, he left that one factory in back in 2009. And then that's when I went and shaped in a garage in that, same complex that skips in.

He goes, hey man, and he'd had this shop for five years. And hey, I'm going to get out of this and, you know, the owner or whatever. You know, it's something that had gone down. And end of his lease, he goes, I'm going to go try and buy a building. So would you enter, would you want to maybe take this over? And I was like, fuck, okay, well. And my business partner, Dave, he and I have been talking for maybe six or seven years and how he's obsessed with surfing, but he comes from like the finance world, you know.

And I've known him for 20 years, PeeB Surf Club. member surfing the point birdrock and all that stuff and we'd surf shores and we'd always talk about business but i didn't we didn't know how he would fit like inside joshal surfboards and then i told him this opportunity came up maybe to take over a small glass shop just down the street from where i was at and he goes huh so he started thinking he comes back the next day he's okay let's do this let's start a new company we're 50 50 50 liability everything investment you know i go i go profit all that stuff he go i go sure but here's how it's going to be set up i'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, which is traveling around, surfing and shaping, I will make it so that you guys

have foam every week. And he goes, okay. And so he's run the shop. He's actually, he's involved in, he does all the hot coating on the decks and the resin loops, and he pays the guys, he orders stuff. He basically, he runs it. I just make sure that there's foam there organized, hopefully by Tuesday at noon every week, because that's when we start batches. But so that, so that, So Jeff had given me a year to kind of like suss it out because there's no, I can't just go hire somebody to laminate color tint jobs. You know, I can't go. So we started putting the word out, started with my Sander Wade, who was working at Diamond Glassing, and who's also a fry guy. And so we've always gotten along.

And he goes, well, I know of one. So he kind of put us onto a laminator. And then I knew a guy that could sand and also do fins. And then we had a polisher that I had worked with. back when I worked at Chris and like, oh, three, Alfredo was still around. And so we just kind of put it together. And it's funny looking back now is we'll do 15 packs, and we could barely do six back then. Like six was a big week.

Four, I think we did four packs the first couple months. And then in that time, you know, diving glassing shut down. And we picked up the glosser polisher there and also the fin laminar guy, John, that puts the fins on. So it's really become this like real tight crew. And again, legends beyond me. I mean, these guys have been building boards for 40 plus years. I just happen to be the kid that's giving them phone, you know. So I'm really super thankful.

And Dave runs a super tight ship. You know, there's no money in glassing. So if we can squeak out 20 bucks a board, that's what we're doing. So we're trying to change it, though, but slowly. Everybody needs to do it together, right? Every shape or every glass shop needs to work together. And, hey, like, eight people touch that thing. And they're making $10 an hour.

come on you know so we're trying to trying to elevate you know everybody kind of talks and oh yeah well my wholesale on this board's this now oh okay you know um it's tough it's right now there's there's a group of us taking you know quality and prices so everybody can actually make a living or hope to up and then you know there's still guys it they give their work away and I'm like well what you charge more you're worth more you're you've built boards for you know this guy this guy and for 35 years like, come on, don't be, because they're scared. They think, oh, if I up my price, I'm not going to have any orders. But you got to kind of trust in it.

Yeah. Like, we came out swinging. Like, I remember when we started in 06, it's like, no, this is my minimum. Here it is. And it's just slowly gone up from there, you know. Well, yeah, it's the classic, I mean, you're doing something in America. You're building something in America. You're building the highest quality thing that you can build.

With what we, yeah, with what we can, with what we're allowed to. Chemical-wise and stuff, it's getting pretty tight in California. Yeah. But, you know, we've got all the permits and we're doing it right. And all that stuff costs money, a lot of money. Yep. And that's part of what, that's part of the American dream. It's what you fought for.

Yeah. It's what you fought for, Dave, for us to have these opportunities to go out there and live in this country. Proud of this guy. Yeah. Yeah, I went to this guy for dragging my ass to the beach every weekend. Come on, man. Yeah. Actually, today, I think we're moving into the suite next to us.

I need a bigger shaping room and a little... I've been building some stockboards and putting them on the website. And that's actually proved to be nice because it's like, oh, you've sold a board and you were surfing. So that's been cool. So we're going to kind of have a nice, you know, wall front where we can at least display the boards properly and take good pictures and that way guys are more informed and such.

Try to work on the blog. I haven't blogged in a long time, but I used to be super into it. Yeah, well now you're too busy surfing and shaping. Yeah, but that was the point. Well, listen, we've been at it for a while, and I don't want to keep you guys up here much longer. I think our air conditioning, I may have failed to turn it on. It's getting warm.

Yeah, it's probably 80 degrees out, and I'm in a long black seat. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, good. I just, you know, so it's joshawlsurfboards.com is where they can find you On Instagram, your Josh Hall surfboards. On Facebook, your Josh Hall surfboards. Do you have Twitter? I don't.

No. No. I barely have enough time to keep up with those three things, let alone. Yeah. But, you know, we were talking earlier. I'm hoping to get some, I want to put some Josh Hall custom T-shirts on the Jocco store and get them out there. So maybe we can hook something like that. It would be cool.

I'm sure people would be stoked to support an American. craftsmen yeah on the day to day even if they live in Iowa where they don't surf but they work hard like you know like good Americans do but um do you guys got you got any closing thoughts Dave we got to talk about archery oh yeah yeah yeah your newest obsession yeah you're obsessed with archery oh geez Louise yeah well thanks to this guy so his brother was an elk or is an alconer used to be and I got a little bow when I was 10, a little compound bow and a 3D target. And I go blast arrows into that thing.

And then they kind of hadn't talked in a long time. And through, I guess it was listening to Joe Rogan's podcast. And then who else? And I had some other friends. And well, so my fiance, Tori, she's growing up shooting bows and guys. And both her sisters and, of course, her dad. So he's like, well, you know, my friend, Bob owns performance archery.

Oh, yeah. And I was like, wait, that's the one from Joe's podcast. And I was like, okay. So he just made the introduction and went up there and Bob's a surfer. So I just like, well, how cool is this, you know? And went up and kind of started to geek out online. There's a lot of info out there. John Dudley, the stuff he puts out is insane.

So I kind of was geeking out and went up. And Bob just, he set me up. And, man, I've been shooting arrows every day. since it's yeah yeah well we'll definitely have to get after that uh range which i haven't been to the one up by balboa barbara part it's right underneath the cabrio bridge yeah i mean you drive by it every day you wouldn't even know it's there yeah so we'll go up and hit that yeah man we should it'll be fun in and i got some other trips planned where you hopefully uh going as they say get after it yeah yeah we'll do it cool man that'd be fun yeah uh but anything else no not really i

know enjoy this I guess pretty much no idea yeah you did good dad no great to hear you and it's an honor to have you on and I'm telling you glad I met you guys people will learn a ton from from what you said and from your experiences and what it looked like from your perspective it's it's awesome it's an honor to have here you here just the truth yeah and I mean Josh just to see you know what you've taken from your dad and how you've turned that into a business and you found your way you know, different people are out there and they're doing different things and, and, you know, I appreciate your service and I appreciate you sharing the Stoke worldwide.

Yeah, man, slide the glide. Oh, I just wanted to say, I was real fortunate besides him and Skip, I've had a lot of good mentor, life coach people in my life. So that's been a big, big deal. I have friends that don't have that. And now that we're getting close to 40, you can see it, you know. And so I just shout out to those people, you know. I've had a lot of help extracurricularly to get through it all.

And here we are. Right on. And I'll tell you what, for everyone, you can see, I mean, Josh is a great example. And, you know, like I was talking about earlier, if you're in a position where you can reach down and you can give somebody a hand, if you can give someone some help and you can say, hey, kid, come this way or, hey, kid, go that way. You know, you can have a huge impact, a huge impact on their life and getting them pointed in the right direction. Yeah, that's a, that's, it's kind of too bad. people keep that inside them and don't share it. I know their experience or their skills.

But you got to share it. Yeah, you got to listen. That's my grandpa. He was like, I don't care if you disagree. You got to listen to somebody because they might have something that you don't. Or maybe they put it in a way you didn't think of. So you can grow from that. I guess to your point, whereas I just said, hey, if you're out there and you're in a more senior position, reach down and help people out.

And if you're one of the young bucks out there, then like Josh just said, open your ears and have a listen because people got some good information for you and they can point you in the right direction so you don't have to learn the lessons of the hard way. There you go. Yep. Awesome. All right. Thanks for coming on, guys. Thank you. Thank you.

And we'll see you in the water. All right. All right. At this point, our guests, Dave, and Josh Hall have. Exited the building and Awesome to talk to them and Rapping it up there you know talking about Sharing what you know yeah with other people and I think it's a good opportunity for you echo Charles to share

You know what I know yes what you know all right. I know this when we start jiu jitza. I know what kind of gear we're gonna get So okay, well We won't dilly dally how about that? I'm not I'm not I'm not Pro dilly deli. You know, I'm not going to make that leap quite yet. How about this? I'll try not to dilly dally. Okay.

But you start talking about jujitsu, all these things. It's very dilly dally prone, prone. Scenarios. Scenario, subject matter. Yes. Anyway, people starting jiu-jitsu, people already in jiu-jitsu, people are doing jiu-jitsu for 15 years. Here's the Ghi you get origin. Why?

Not only is it made for jiu-titsu, it's made in the USA. All of them. Boom. Best geese, by far. Many different selections go to origin main.com. They got some new stuff out too by the way Denham. It's not out yet. Well, you know, well by the time whoever you are in the world Listening to this could be could be out could be fully out I saw the picture on online so to me as far as yours in my head

It's out it's just a matter of time before it's on on me my body habitus Just learn that word you just say body habitus. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I misused it slightly but I'm I'm practicing going with it anyway Also they got t-shirts and hoodies Joggers Rash guards yes for the no-gi Jiu-Jitsu Or you know when you're not doing Jiu-Jitsu When you're resting on rest days That are kind of cold joggers sweatsuit

When people ask can I do Workout and do Jiu-Jitsu on the same day This is a complete yes Yes you can and I'll tell you this I think you can do Jiu-Too every day And if you can't do Jiu-Jitsu every day because you're physically impaired from doing it because the impact of the jiu jitsu itself yeah you're you're not training jih Tutsu correctly yeah what too hard is what you're

going too hard you're using too much strength you're using too much muscles yeah if you can't train jih Tutsu every day you're going too hard I'm not saying you might not be sore right because you probably will be you may be I should say if I do a bunch of hard rounds the next day I can feel it right Right, but I'm not sore like I can't work out. I'm sore like, oh, I'm definitely trained hard yesterday. Right, right. A good way.

Yeah. If you're training to the point so hard, so psycho that you can't train, that means you're going too hard. You're using too much strength, so you should relax. Yes. I agree. Well, unless you're training with you, with you, since you can never train with yourself, you don't know this. But speaking from experience, so I train. I haven't trained hard in really a long time.

Train with you. And you know what? I wouldn't even say we were really going hard. No, I definitely wasn't going on. Yeah, yeah. At all. Well, you know, whatever. There were times where I sensed a sense of urgency a few times.

Anyway, my neck hurt. My neck hurt real bad. But it was like right up until the threshold of not being able to like work out. That's what it is. So that's fine. Yeah, it was just it was soreness. It wasn't hurt. I wasn't injured.

I was hurting. And this is just from resisting chokes? Resisting the chokes, yes. That's exactly what it was. And I knew too. We were trying to resist the chokes. Sorry. Sure.

Nonetheless, I was sore. That's an ego-driven statement. No, I was. No, no, no. Oh, you. Yes. That was a little ego creeping out. Yeah.

Like, I want you to know that I choked you. Yeah. You know, that's just ego. I should be like, yeah, well, you know, you did a good job. Yeah, yeah. This is what I should. Which is what I normally showed some heart out there Yeah, you did a good job you know

Resisted the chill Felt tight Felt good Yeah thanks bro Anyway nonetheless Yes work out And do jiu jitsu I agree with that actually

Here's the thing though People's training philosophies differ They differ Yeah true So like some people They're trained philosophy Hey get the most out of your training Good point you know

But these are typically And I tried to kind of compartmentalize Or kind of break it down to myself right where in my opinion and this is just from my my personal view like I shouldn't like yeah I shouldn't be like super sore or I shouldn't be like unhappy to train jiu jih Tzu you know true I shouldn't be like from jiu jitsu from jiu jiu jit too yeah do you when you jack steal do you get sore to the point where you're like oh like I mean I imagine if you do chest day yes then you're not to be fired up to do chest day the next day correct right so that's that's okay well

yeah but a hard chest day is not going to interfere with your jiu jitzu day never no there are times but let's say i have done a much of travel and hadn't done a lot of squatting yeah and then i go squats sometimes my legs i'll get the doms sure and it won't it won't stop my Jiu-Jitsu training. However, it is a noticeable factor that I have to contend with. I would agree with that. Yeah. That does happen. Yeah. But the opposite shouldn't happen, which is I trained Jiu-Jitsu and now I feel like I can't work out because I'm so sore in this particular body part. Can you get your elbow straightened out a little extra? Yes, you can. Does that interfere sometimes? Yes, it does. Yeah. And that's like an anomaly. That's not a not a, not a planned part of training, you know, to get your elbows straightened out in kind of slightly

beyond micro injury situation. Or, and this is only if that's the plan. So if you're like, hey, I'm going to train Jiu-Sitza Monday, no Jiu-Jitsu Tuesday, I'm going to lift Tuesday instead, you know, like some people, they have that plan, you know, where you're not going to do a two-day scenario, then, yeah, don't train, don't train twice a day or twice in a row. I don't agree. Yeah, no, I dig it.

But you should never be, and what I was thinking of, you should. It should never be like this hard, like grind to the point where you're unhappy. You know, like no one should be unhappy training. You just said never. Right. Right. Yes, you should. You should be like, you know what?

I don't feel like doing this. I'm doing it anyways. Right. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. Every time you feel like a, maybe I don't want to train today doesn't mean you

get to not train. Right. No, you train anyways. Well, it depends. It depends. Because in Jiu Jitsu, if you're like every time you don't necessarily feel 100% like training, then you're not going to train when you should be training. Yeah.

Most of the time you're gonna get something out of it if you maybe instead of doing 12 six minute rounds you say you know what I'm gonna do some movement I'm gonna get four rounds in Maybe do that instead yeah because you feel because you do have to one thing I am aware of is if you're tired your percentage of getting injured goes up If you don't want to be in there your percentage of getting injured goes up because You're being lazy and weak and and those are the type of situations you you you get hurt Right so that's not paying attention. Yeah and that's exactly what I was thinking that whole thing where where you know I was kind of going in circles with the thing where it's like you should never like be unhappy or not want to train you know kind of scenario, but I and then I kind of was like wait, but there are those times where it's like that's kind of part of Jiu-Jitsu like the like the adversity element is part of it. And but here's the thing. When you train that adversity element, you're like you kind of you want to do that. It's like in it's like invited adversity kind of thing. You know just like how you.

You just said where it's like, hey, if you're, I don't know, or whatever situation, and you don't want to go 10, 12 rounds. So just get some movement and go four rounds. Boom, you just went to that voluntary, you know, place into your jiu-jitsu. See what I'm saying? So it should, unless then on top of that, it depends on who you are. What do you mean voluntary place? Okay, so if you're like, hey, like, okay, here's a different scenario then.

if you're a competitor. You're like, this is my goal is to be a competitor. Now, that's a whole different scenario where especially if you have a coach and training partners and all this other stuff. Oh, there's going to be days where you hate it. You literally do not. And you just got to get some anyways. You literally would choose to not be there. Literally.

Like, I'm not going to be here today. But then you have these external elements, including your goal, your coaches, training partners, like all these things who have the same goals or whatever. So there's kind of like a bigger picture there so you have to endure that like hey I don't want to be here Okay, I don't like jiu jitsu you ever felt that before no I don't even like jiu jitsu right now like why am I doing this? No, I don't even like I don't even like do jitza right now like why am I doing this? No, occasionally I'll joke about it Yeah, but I don't actually feel like when I was competing and I had like a competition like goal like I would feel that sometimes Yeah like I want to do this. Yeah like a little baby Anyway, it's different. The scenario is different anyway nonetheless back to the geek speaking of scenarios. I thought this is a no dilly dally

Dally scenario yeah well you know because that was just a Dally we were we got a little tangent that was like 13 minutes nonetheless back in the G get the origin Gie get origin rash cards that's what you do no question no question also supplements so when you are sore see you don't have to be that sore be less you can be less sorry yes I I know this first hand joint warfare joint warfare and krill I'm taking both that's that's the the double the double whammy yeah Yeah, yeah, so you don't have to be that sore Discipline you can take that maybe if you're not feeling I will vouch for this

Yes on a day where you're like well, I don't know maybe I only do three rounds when I can make myself go in there By the way, I'm gonna drink three scoops of discipline before I go yeah how many rounds do you end up doing nine So I will vouch for that that is a factual thing that will happen Yeah, you don't feel like it I will mix up you know I'll mix up a lick high you know what I don't really feel like going but I'm just gonna go because I have to because that's the discipline so then I mix up three scoops of discipline yeah 20 minutes before I leave my house I'm drinking on the way kind of drink it get here and all of a sudden I get

out on the mat or second round it kicks in and I'm like you know get another round get another round yeah so coincidentally the other day when we trained we haven't trained a long time I've been out yeah Yeah, we trained. That wasn't the plan. The plan was not to train. Oh. It was just to record, for me anyway, it's not like I planned not to train.

I didn't plan to train. I was gonna record, boom, go home. That's the routine, that's the scenario. But I did take, strangely enough, two scoops of discipline before I came in. And I'm not joking, I totally did. So. And then you couldn't resist, and I was like, are you gonna train or what? Yeah, because the thing is all like, you know, the post-reasonabreve.

recording plans, they're all still there, you know, and you're like, hey, let's train. It's like noon at that time. So other people were here, you know, there's the buzz, you know, the buzz of training in the air that was going on, the two scoops, you know, the buzz of that is going. And you're like, hey, let's train. I don't have any close to train, by the way. So you know what I do? I go downstairs, buy a towel first hour after, bought one.

Borrowed shorts. I went to buy shorts, but there was no, none in my size for sale. And I just used the shirt that I recorded with. have skinny knees shorts well they did actually because I went and saw no Oliver was there who's a smaller guy than me so he's obviously shorts are smallest the only ones available I wore his shorts and you know he's one of these trendy guys so they're kind of shorter shorts oh and striped and maybe like half a size too small whatever yeah boom whatever no factor I was really unintimidated by your shorts and that skinny knees yeah my whole thing anyway the point is when you take this two

scoops the discipline yes it does push you into those either more rounds or just rounds when you didn't even plan on doing rounds like in my scenario yeah there's also we just made a discipline go it's a it's a go pill it's got discipline sometimes you don't have time to drink the entire discipline you have time to mix it you got to get a little expedient hit when you're on the go a little hitter on the go so you can just pop some of the Disciplined go pills a little newtropic action A little bit of caffeine get your Get that a little bit going get you a little bit going

Yeah, so that's that that's out now too And then after you do the Jiu-Jitsu then what? You gotta recover right boom moch Mok train get right on it Mok train additional protein along with your protein that you eat with your food exactly right the steak and boom you're good to go Monk can be used as or it should be used as a dessert I'm just gonna say it There you go.

It can be used to a dessert. It can be used as a dessert. I'm imposing my whole thing on, on team. No. But the thing is, what you're failing to remember is it can also be used to replace whatever you are going to eat. Right? Oh, like a meal replacement. Yeah.

Like breakfast, milk and dinner. What do I have for, what I have for lunch? I didn't have lunch. I just have milk. Yeah. And what? I'm not only satiated. I'm full.

And I got a, I got like the happy palettes. Yeah. You know, because I tasted something good. Yeah, well, okay, I'll go ahead and agree. I don't like the word satiated, you know? What does it mean? It means what you think it means. Okay.

Like, well, I don't. No, I mean, what does it mean that you don't like the word satiated? It sounds kind of like weird. So although I would use those terms, I will agree with you kind of. I think recommended dessert. That's my recommendation. Boom, there it is. Anyway, Mulk, that's it.

How many what flavors now? Well, you're always coming out with a new flavor. I think the darkness actually Darkness dark chocolate is it dark chocolate? Yeah Oh, okay good because you can kind of taste the extra chocolate also warrior kid malks because your kid is getting fed Garbage that's trying they're trying the world is trying to make your kid weak Yeah, and out of shape and you want your kid to be strong and powerful So you give them Mulk what do you give them for dessert? Mulk what do you give them? That's what you give them? They don't want ice cream anymore they know your kid knows ice cream makes them weak they know that and if they don't know that they should you should tell them so let them know that warrior

kid milk it tastes delicious and yet it's good for you yeah so get some of that the so halloween just recently was passed or came or whatever we just finished Halloween right right so I contemplated just giving milk out instead of candy yeah but then you got to mix you got to put in little cups and all all this stuff and then I don't really have any. Dave Burke. Good deal, dude. He emailed me or we were, we were talking and he says, my goal next year is that you have

Mulk, Warrior Kid Mulk in packets that we can give out for Halloween. He said it's just, there's the only, that's the only way it should be. Yeah, actually that makes sense. Yeah, that's the only way it should be. You know how you like, little kid should be on the Mulk train everywhere? I agree. You say that. Do you think that, you know how there's like right now you can flip on the news and you can

you like obesity in America right if everyone just gets on the milk train will it just be like America is now yoked yeah probably the children of America are now yoked what happened they're tracing it back to a strange podcast that talked about a a formula that they called mulk and the children they started to drink it and now the children of America are yoked yeah the propaganda did it well actually that's good because you say like oh yeah that the industry Is making your kids weak or whatever is trying to make your kids weeks? Right, here's the thing. That is true.

Yeah, no. Here's what they're doing. No, they advertise. They make little cartoony advertisements to eat this sugar. Yeah, it's, you know, as an informed, or in my case, quasi-informed adult, and you kind of can, you can kind of sit back and watch the commercials. Look, I see what they did there. I wonder why they chose that commercial to market their thing. And a lot of their brother's question marks everywhere, these commercials now.

Anyway, yeah, when you get a like a Snickers bar, right? Br, Snickers satisfies you, like basically saying, hey, if you're hungry, eat this Snickers, man. It's good. It's good. It might as well just be good for you because it has peanuts in it. Like, bro, there's like, there's chocolate and caramel. You know, like, these things are not good for you. But anyway, so they're like saying this.

They're like, hey, this satisfying you. This is what you need when you're hungry. They're straight up making you ache. Straight up. That's like you. It's hard to argue even that that's their attention. Here's the deal though. We can't, we can't just blame.

You can't blame the food, right? You can't, it's not allowed. I'm not blaming the food. You have to blame yourself. Now, at a certain age, your kids are eating what you put in the fridge. If you put weakness in the fridge, they're gonna eat weakness. If you put strength in the fridge, they're gonna get strong. If you put milk in the fridge, they're gonna get yoked.

Yup, there you go. So the choice is pretty obvious in my opinion. Also, stay on the path while representing. Get a shirt at jaco store. Jocco store.com. That's where it is. So you get a shirt, discipline equals freedom. The shirt that Jocco always wears every single day of his life,

his life, victory, MMA, and fitness, black one. Boom. A lot of cool stuff on there. In my opinion, represent the path. If you like something, get something. There's hoodies on there as well. Rash guards, more rash guards for jihitsu or anything. Yeah or surfing

Laif Babin Made a comment Yeah On Instagram On the origin Instagram feed Sure They put a picture of

Pete put a picture of Me Pete and B little In New York City And Laif made some comment About my trucker's hat Yeah

Something about like You know The 90s called And wants their hat back I actually didn't even realize that's how just completely out of touch in my mind this wasn't even a topic yeah like my my hat was something from the 90s that wasn't even that thought never never crossed my mind yeah well is that strange technically layf babin is not correct

if he was doing what I think he might have been doing I didn't see that comment so I don't know nor did I talk to life about it yet so I don't know currently but this is my guess he was referencing the fact that trucker hats were trucker hats and then they kind of went out they weren't really a style and then you know their whole retro phenomenon where like a brought them back style emerges from some you know thing so when the distant past sure yeah so when the trucker hat came back as a style it was not in the 90s if I'm not mistaken it was like after 2000 okay I'm pretty sure I don't know because I only wore truckers neck yeah see well yeah I've I've I I must say, I think I had some flex fits along the way.

Yeah, flex fit. Well, good news about both of those scenarios is we have trucker hats on jocco store.com and flex fit. Represent discipline equals freedom on your head in whatever way you want. Retro 90s, 80s, 2000s, 2018, whenever you like, however you like. You can get the DefCore hat. Yes, you can. That's the hat he was talking about. Yeah, yeah, because I was wearing the DefCore hat, which apparently is now.

a 90s hat no yeah you know what I think and I'm gonna ask him to confirm but I think he was just mad you had the Def Gore hat he didn't just trying to find a find a way to be pissed he's lashing out by his own terminology or with his own terminology he was drinking the Haterade oh did Leif Bab and busted drinking the Haterade yeah anyway yeah some cool stuff on there again jocco story.com if you want to represent on the path also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes and Stitcher Google play and all these podcast places wherever you listen to the podcast go and subscribe if you have not already also on YouTube We have a YouTube channel. Yeah, we do. That's where the videos are posted sure you can see Dave Hall

You can see Josh Hall you can see what everyone looks like you can see what echo Charles looks like You can comment about the size of echo Charles his arms and about how echo Charles does not look like his voice Yeah Okay, yeah, cool. There's at least one person on every one of our videos that says, Echo's looking jacked. I think the only reason that Echo posts these videos is so that he can read through all those comments and see someone says, Echo looks jerked.

Maybe. Look at that. Anyway, he's so guilty. Also, Warrior Kid Podcasts, don't forget. Yes, Warrior Kid Podcasts that is also out there and should have some, more of those rolling out let your kid listen to warrior kid podcast and if you need to ask questions for uncle Jake you can do it through my social media and I will pass those questions on to uncle Jake himself and get the answers for you also the warrior kid soap from irish oaks

ranch dot com actual warrior kid is it called warrior kid soap or jaco soap it's called jaco soap from a warrior kid named it yeah from a warrior kid named eight yeah I'm just calling it warrior kid I just call it warrior kid soap yeah well it kind of is Yeah, I agree. He's out there getting after it. I agree. 100% American made at a whole new level. Mm-hmm.

So from the beginning. Irishoaks ranch.com. Also psychological warfare. That's the little album with tracks where I will tell you why you should or should not carry out something that you know you should or should not carry out. And we are working on the next psychological warfare album and we'll let you know when it is out so you can get some of that and if you have suggestions recommendations if you want to know how you should do something sure or not do something yeah refrain yeah let let me know and we'll see if it makes the cut yeah yeah

makes sense there's a lot of them out there man some people are like hey can you can you do a track about you're not putting croutons in your salad it's kind of a specific no because it's that specific even though that's might be little broader than you think that croutons taste good and we know they're not good for us yeah but you're like have you like like you're like I know it's just a few croutons so it's no big deal yeah just a little bit of croutons but then you if you were to assemble your croutons in uh on the plate you probably got a slice of bread there yeah yeah that's true yeah then you then you realize oh I'm I'm I'm off the path I didn't even admit it to myself told myself a little lie

well what about like men you got to but that's like one of those specific ones like ketchup too How much sugar is in ketchup? A lot. You know, people, they'll put ketchup. Oh, yeah, I'm a ketchup guy. Or even when you go through, you know, the burger place, grass fed, hopefully. And you are like, hey, do you want the meal?

Oh, I need a psychological warfare for that. No. Think about it. No meal slash no upsize. No upsize. Yeah, yeah. Because I'm like, you want supersized that? Yeah.

Well, the supersized only comes with the meal. So because you can't just supersize a burger unless you had an extra pad. I do that all the time. I'm always like, hey, Give me three patties on that thing. But there's nothing wrong with that. I'll do that too. Like if I didn't, if I'm fasting or didn't eat that much or whatever, and then I get a hard workout.

I'll do that. How much better does food taste after you fasted for 24 hours, 48 hours, and 72 hours? I would say 25 to 35% better. How much better does it feel to eat when you know that you've just earned it? That feels better, yeah. What percentage? Significant. 50%.

Just just to get that feeling it's worth fasting. Yeah just to feel how good it feels to be like I totally earn this I didn't eat anything in 48 hours. I'm gonna just get this burger on right now. Yeah and they're like recommending you break the fast with the burger because that might not be smart especially if you're having fries with it No fries. That's the thing you don't bread's weird that I've not eaten fries and I like fries. Oh really? Fries are good you hold the line on the fries. I have been for the past like one year old Dang. I had just had some fries. See, Brad. Well, some of us are on the path. You know, some of us are.

It's all good, brad. You're the man. Have your fries. But if you're having weaknesses or moments of weakness for fries, that's another. Maybe that should be an album. Fries, apparently I need it. No, I'm just saying it's in the same category as the croutons. You see what I'm saying?

I'm not saying, no, I'm not saying, yes, I'm saying that's a specified category. I don't know that there's any, like with croutons, you're like, oh, you know, but I'm having a salad. There's a whole rationalization that takes place there fries. There's no rationalization. You're just like I'm straight up eating fries right now. You're right you're right. That's just straight up Yeah, wrong because you except for they taste good Really good. Yeah, I respect the fact that you don't eat fries for one year good job. Yeah, if you weren't drinking mountain dues Cokes I'd have more but yeah, it's okay Well, you know first things or or baby steps right one step at a time. I think Pete Roberts Mm-hmm

He he's like He's an enabler He's a food enabler Oh for all okay Yeah yeah okay I'll be with Pete He's just like you know he just get after He just gets after it and I'm with him and I'm like well you know what? He's the one that had

He's he's the one that Inspired the whole cake scenario that went down when I was in Arizona I was just in New York with him and it's like we I'm like look I'm not eating cake That's not happening. That's like a whole thing. It's just principle I'm not eating cake So he orders like a Sunday No, he orders this This crazy milkshake

That had whipped cream Quote for the table Right You remember something you got for the table It's like I'm like and I was like Well I'll have a little bit I'll have a little bit

Next thing you know It's just cake everywhere For ice cream All right well hey that's good Pete Roberts enabler Yeah So now Because that probably like caught you

And this is what this is what You know it did And it's like oh you know It's like oh we're just here Haven't seen Pete We're talking business blah blah blah blah Here's a shake and this is what pissed me off because you get done with the shake

Like we got this shake and he was kind of like a table for the you get done with it and I said I No kidding would rather have drank a milk than that thing Because not just because it's better for you because the milk actually tastes better than that thing It's too much man when was last time he had like a regular like milkshake? I don't know Probably probably probably a month or two okay so I had a regular milkshake, I had a regular milkshake And I was hungry too. Yeah. Like I was like oh this milk shake and it was from Jack in the Buck.

It was an Oreo cookie shake and why like very much too much though? Exactly right that's my point. So I drink some the first like two three four five six hits You're like oh this is a good shake and then you're like well I don't want to waste it. You know so you kind of push yourself to yeah, yeah, exactly and then you finish it and you're like man. I can't finish it like it's not it you know the d what do you call diminishing returns you know after about halfway down and I'm really you're like man you don't even feel good But try to drink a milk shake and I drink the big one too the double sometimes triple scoop in the big 30 ounce thing Bray you get halfway you're like more you just want more like you sour through the whole thing. It's good. Yeah So even the experience of it going down is better than a Sugary scenario. So milk all the way also what I failed to mention last time maybe the time before is when we buy that when we get the books that we cover on this podcast and when we sometimes have the privilege of having the actual author in this room with us I listed them on the website joccopodcast.com book section

actually you did say that actually last time oh but yeah I got them listed right there boom so you don't have to go searching or try to remember hey what episode was this book or what book was on that episode I got it listed right there click right through there take it to amazon one day boom you got it got it that's the way it works also to vary up your workout you need some rings if you don't have for your home gym a lot of people getting their home gym now I see it online yeah my neighbor we went trick-treating so I see his garage is open got a little scenario going on yeah just like you know how people convert their whole garage yeah which I think is a bold yet good it's a good move in California it's real easy

to do that yeah in other parts of the country you need that garage for vehicles in California not happening yeah so I mean and that's really that's kind of the point where it's kind of like, that's a, what do you call it, like a specific decision that you see someone made? They're like, what's more important? Housing my vehicles? Yeah. The family vehicles, by the way.

Or creating a gym. In California, what I'm saying is in California, that's not a big sacrifice. Not as big, yeah. In Iowa, that's a big sacrifice. When that dude converts his gym, in his garage to a gym in Iowa, it's like, hey, guess what?

in February, you're going to be sitting in a freezing car that's negative 20 degrees for at least 18 minutes every morning. Yeah. But you know what? I'm going to get my workout in. Exactly right. So, when you're getting your rings, get them from on it. They have the best rings that I've seen. Granted, I don't have that much rings experience.

But the ones I got are dope. Get kettlebells on there? To me, the artistic ones are the best. That's my opinion and that's Jocko's opinion too. No, it's actually not or debatable debatably. I do have an opinion that you should if you need to drink something other than milk or you don't need mulk at that time You can drink jocco white tea Jock a white tea you can get it in cans from Amazon Prime so you have to pay shipping

Or you can get the tea bags and it tastes delicious and more important most important it guarantees it a 8,000 pound deadlift so yeah that is important to do that also got some books we got way the warrior kid and Mark's mission appreciate everybody getting those and giving them to kids I get awesome feedback from around the world kids getting on the path if you read this book and you will say to yourself I guarantee your say yourself I wish I had this book when I was a kid yes every single person that reads that book goes I wish I had this book when I was a kid you should just have a

little pre conceived idea that when you get done with it you're gonna say I wish I had this book when I was a kid so what you can do like we just talked about with Dave Hall and Josh Hall what you can do you want to help out a kid go on Amazon go to your local bookseller and get that book and give it to a kid bring it to their classroom whatever it's gonna help you kids out and it's gonna help kids out a lot speaking of giving if you want to give the gift of discipline to someone that you know get him the discipline equals freedom field manual I wrote it but you know what I wrote it and I read it yeah

why because I need to stay on the path myself if I would have had the discipline equals me freedom field manual sitting next to me if it was me Pete Roberts and the discipline equals field freedom field manual I might not have gotten some of that Shake right there that he put in front of me. I've been like, no. That's a lie. That that whole that you just brought a you just brought a glass of lies to this table. Well, that's good because you didn't know Pete was like that. We should have known because remember when we're over there. I know he admits it. Yeah, like he knows giving us like this baklava and all this like delicious stuff and so we should have known but I think it kind of crept up on you like if you would have known like going into the scenario you'd be like oh I'm on the lookout for your thing. You could have dodged it but I don't know. Yeah. And Pete, you know, pizza got sick athlete. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, he played football and he could basketball and set all kinds of records in lacrosse.

So he's just like an athletic guy. Yeah. And he probably, you know, when it was in high school, just eating everything inside because he's big. Yeah. And he's trying to be yoked. So he's just eating everything. And now he's, whatever he is, 30, whatever, years old.

And he's just got that menu in his hand, like a criminal. Yeah. Good times. So if you're hanging around Pete Roberts or someone else that's in the neighbor That makes you feel like it's okay. That's gonna bring you down the the sorrow the path of sorrow What's the swamps? Slippery slope. Oh there yeah, the swamps of sadness the slippery slope of The horror if you're around that person if you got the discipline was freedom field man you can kind of like deflect their weakness With it. I was just out there naked naked and Afraid just get pizza ordering up sundays and

Taramisu it's I just spent two two days with Pete no three days with Pete no three nights with Pete I should say Was it three was it two anyways every night there's a dessert scenario next time I've got to bring the The field manual with me just to deflect Yeah, yeah man actually the more he's friendly too yeah, that's what I was gonna say because he's it's not like he's some jerk guy out of shape No, no capability and he's friendly yeah no that's easy to be like proud I don't want to be like you in He's more than you in with like the smiles and we're having a good time and everything's fun and he's like you know Well let's just would you do you want dessert? No one asks me that

Pete Roberts the only person in the world because are you are you gonna get some dessert? No one asks me that People don't say hey jaco you you want to see the dessert menu they don't ask me that Yeah Roberts is like hey hey waiter can we get the dessert menu over here for this guy right here He's just enabling so you don't have any training dealing with that kind of scenario you know what I need psychological warfare I'm gonna make an album for Pete Roberts yeah and it's you know where he gets it from his mom is cooking Baclaba his wife she she puts candy out in front of him she just gets after it yeah he'll tell me he'll send me a picture of like a bucket full of a bucket full of

Snickers it'd be like hey I'm on the path right now this is what my wife does to me yeah you know Yeah, there's a whole a whole a whole a Situation up there. Yeah, you're gonna watch up for this. The Dismingles Freedom field manual that is gonna help you in those situations and if you need the audio tracks it's not on audible Dot com whatever it's on it's on it's on Amazon music iTunes Google play that's that extreme ownership That's the book about leadership. I wrote with my brother Leif Babin that is the lessons learned in combat and how you can utilize those same principles for combat leadership you can use them in your business and in your life and then the follow-on to that book is called the dichotomy of leadership

It will teach you the hardest part of leadership which is learning how to balance between the dichotomies that are pulling you in Opposite directions this is the biggest problem we see we work with leaders all the time and this is the biggest problem that we see with leaders they don't know how to balance the dichotomy of leadership so if you are a leader and you things aren't going the way you want them to go the likely reason that that's happening is because you're out of balance if you want to learn that balance that will make you a much more effective leader you want to find an ineffective leader you go talk to a leader you find one that's that's in one direction to other derails them derails the team you want to get back on track get the dichotomy of leadership also Mikey and

the dragons Here's the deal. Speaking of extreme ownership, guess what I didn't do? I didn't order enough books. No, I didn't order enough books. Let me go ahead and expand on that. I didn't order enough books of Miking the Dragons at all. I didn't, at all.

As you pointed out last time, oh, oh, I used to give my publisher a hassle and say they didn't get it. Guess what? Guess who else didn't get it apparently well me yeah well then again look I don't blame you It we just found out that it's just not that easy to predict you know no actually I will not make this mistake again Okay, so there it is what did I do did I say well? It's because the printer's slow or well We're not sure no you know what my fault here's what I'm doing we're running We're doing I've done I've done initiated two more runs more printing A bunch of books.

This is the good news. The good news is, well, okay, the bad news is it's going to take a little bit of time. And depending on when you order, there might be a little hesitation. The good news is these are still, I'm running the exact same. I'm running the first a dish. This is it. We're just running first a dish. I'm going to run it for a while.

So if you still want that first dish, order now. And let me tell you what. Order now. Order now. Why? Because if everyone orders right now and it's a bigger number than what I predicted, which it could possibly be, I need to know that as soon as possible. So if you want to get the book, Mikey and the Dragons, please order it ASAP. And my goal is that everybody has it as soon as possible. Definitely want to get it to everyone by Christmas because I know everyone wants to get this book for their kids for Christmas.

Yes. Book review. Echo Charles. Excellent. Because yeah, so I'm going to mention this before. That's like, okay, it's a good one. Sure, we're going to get over our fears, which is good. It's real effective, by the way, of that. Meaning that the theme of the book, Mike and the Dragons,

is how to overcome your fears. Yeah, that's like the theme. But I'll tell you this, the book is a fun book. It's like fun. It's like because it rhymes and like all this stuff or whatever. And, you know, part of this is me. Because, okay, so I'm reading Way the Warrior Kid, Mark's Mission, the second time around, right?

Second time around, you read it before, you know all the words, so I started getting into it, turn on the theatrics with the kids, right? They like that, whatever. So you read this Mikey and the Dragons one, now you got some rhymes in there. And it's like, with Mark's mission,

I'm reading like a chapter, maybe two chapters a night. That's kind of it. That's a routine before bed. This one, you read the whole thing. Yeah, straight up. Plus, they don't want you to stop anyway because it's like one, you know.

Yeah, turn on the theatrics with the rhyming and stuff. Yeah, outstanding. Fun super fun to do like as far as an activity like with your kids reading to them you know There's something added there with all the rhyming and stuff John Bozak who drew the art and he didn't have a copy yet and I when I was in New York I saw him I brought a copy for him and he's got a good I don't know what I don't know what the term for this laugh is but he's got this laugh that he does Almost like a victory laugh. I don't even know if that's a thing

Yeah, yeah. He does like a laugh where he's so happy that he can't really contain it. So I give him the book, it's still in the plastic. These books are individually wrapped in plastic, shrink wrap. And so I give it to him, he like slowly opens it up. Because you can still, you can see through the shrink wrap. But he's doing this laugh, this, I got trying to imitate him. He's like, oh, oh, and then he's going through each individual page because the coloring is beautiful. He said that, He said that years ago, he said five years ago, it wouldn't be possible to do what we did in terms of matching the color that he originally drew. The color that he actually used, getting it to match perfectly with the book. He said that is not possible five years ago. Well, it's not possible that we did it that fast

because we did it. It came out exactly the color it's supposed to be. Normally, if it was five years ago, you had to print one and go like, okay, make this. Bring more indigo in. Whatever. I need more crimson or whatever and and we didn't have to do any of that. It's like boom. It's been printed. Oh, guess what? It's completely correct and the drawings are beautiful. They're amazing in fact what we are going to do and I talked to John about this some of those pictures are so gorgeous. We're gonna make posters that have these images on them.

Makes sense. Yeah. And that way kids can put them in the room. Yeah. And that picture of the prince walking into the forest with, I mean, come on, who doesn't want that? That is just everything. He's going to face the darkness. He's confident.

He's moving forward. He knows he's scared, but he's still going forward. You put that picture up on your kid's wall, up on your wall. That's what I'm talking about. So I need that image right there that needs to be big and we just need to get it out there. Yeah. So if you want Mikey and the Dragons, then please order it now so that I know so that I can get it to you as quickly as possible. And I apologize that it's going to take longer.

That is my fault for underestimating how fired up you all would be in ordering that book. I apologize. And what I'm doing to correct it is ordering. Enough. It's kind of like the tea when the tea came out. We didn't order enough tea and so I ordered more and then that still wasn't enough And then I said to Emily I said we need to order enough tea that we never run out again We haven't run out again yet. I'm not saying it'll never happen, but we're at least in a really good spot So same thing Mikey and the Dragons if you want it order it echelon front that is my leadership Consultancy and what we do with that is we

solve problems through leadership that's what we do whatever problem you're having with your team or your organization it's a leadership problem so it's me it's latef babin it's j p. Danel it's Dave Burke Flynn Cochran Mike's Reilly and Mike Baima go to echelonfront.com for details that musters in 2019 they are coming one's gonna be in Chicago one's gonna be in Denver it's gonna be spring in Chicago it's gonna be fall in Denver every other muster has sold out I had friends friends contact me and say hey just figured out we're gonna come to the muster you know I just got four people and I just you know let me know when I should arrive

and I'm like it's sold out and they're like yeah and I go no like you can't come there's there's it's done you there's no more place to go in you cannot come and so if you're saying that to people you know that's problematic so That means they sell out. This is gonna sell out and so keep an eye. We haven't locked down the dates yet, but extreme ownership.com is what you can look and get it. EF. Overwatch, if you're a business and you need experienced, trained leaders inside your organization that understand the principles of extreme ownership and combat leadership, if you're a business like that, go to EFoverwatch.com. We have our peers, people we're connected to that are from special operations, that are from combat aviation, and we are bringing them into the civilian sector to help companies and businesses lead and win. And if you want to keep discussing and talking about all these things with us, we are available on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on that chefi, she bocha. Yeah

First of all Dave Hall He's off the grid He's not you're not gonna connect with him on social media because he's in Hawaii cruising super hard God bless him And Josh Hall though Josh Hall Josh Hall surfboards on Instagram

Josh Hall surfboards on Facebook Check out what he posts beautiful pictures of his boards You can see what he's doing in the world traveling surfing shaping Echo is at Echo Charles And I am at Jock Willink And thanks once again to Dave Hall for his service to the country and for coming on to the podcast, sharing his stories and his lessons from war and from life. And to Josh, also thanks to him for coming on.

Thanks for spreading that aloha, that aloha and that stoke wherever he goes and keeping the roots of surfing planted deep. that's awesome and it's much appreciated and it's great to see an American company like yours continue to grow and to the police to military to law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs correctional officers border patrol all you all all you all you all you first responders all you military personnel thanks for protecting our way of life here and abroad thanks for protecting us and our ability to do this podcast to do jiu jitsu to go out and surf and live our lives thank you all for your service and sacrifice and to everyone else that is listening no matter what it is that you choose to do no matter what that thing it is whether you're going to go into the

military whether you're going to start a business whether you're going to work for someone no matter what you're going to do put everything that you've got into it do it to the best your ability whether you're assaulting a building on the battlefield or whether you're shaping a board in the shed whatever it is you decide to do pour your soul pour your soul in and get after it and until next time this is echo and jocco out