Jocko Podcast - 158: Mass Murder. Evil DOES Exist. But Why? "Panzram"

Episode Date: January 2, 2019

0:00:00 - Opening: Evil today. 0:09:21 - "Panzram: A Journal of Murder" : https://amzn.to/2RmyShu 1:43:56 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:51:55 - Support: How to Stay On THE PATH. 2:16:29 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 158 with Echo Charles and me, Jocker Willing. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. There was blood all over the floor and smoke in the air. I heard shots fired outside, but I wasn't quite sure who was shooting or what they were shooting at. I moved down the hallway, confirming that all the rooms had been cleared. I soon found the source of the blood a wounded Iraqi civilian on whom I seal hospital Corman, a highly trained combat medic, was working to apply medical care.

And that's just a short little opening from chapter two of the book, the Dikotomy Leadership that I wrote with my brother Laf Babin. And in that chapter, I go on to explain how during this operation in Fallujah, Iraq, We went on to detain multiple suspected terrorists that night. And I don't go into much detail about that. And I don't talk about the people that we captured. I think we took, I think we took about 13 people off target, military aged males. We were probably looking for two or three.

We couldn't figure out or confirm who they were. So we brought all the military aged males off target. And so we end up at this detention facility and we're turning these individuals over. And I'm sitting there kind of just looking at them, just sizing them up. This is one of their earliest operations I had done in my life. It was the first big operation I did in Iraq. And so I'm sort of curious, I guess, for lack of a better word. And I'm looking at the people that we had captured.

Like I said, I think there's 13 of them. And just looking at them, looking at their emotions that they were going through, and some of them look scared, right? In fact, I would say the majority of them just look scared. Just this is not good and this is a bad situation. And you get that feeling like, okay, this guy's probably not bad and will be released. Some of the guys looked mad, which is understandable, too. You know, someone comes into your house in the middle of the night and takes you and you can be mad about that. if you can overcome the scared part, right?

And of course, these people had lived under Saddam Hussein, so they'd been through some brutal stuff. And for them to be not afraid was also an understandable thing, some of the older gentlemen. And then there was one guy, though, that he looked different. The look in his eyes, it definitely wasn't scared, but it wasn't even mad. It was like beyond mad.

It was beyond angry. It was beyond a fanatical look. The look that he had in his eyes was evil. Look like an evil. We could see evil there. And I never will forget that face. And I would see that type of face again over the years. especially in Iraq you'd go out and capture someone that was known for doing horrible things

and you could tell you'd grab five or six people and you'd say oh let me guess which one is the bad guy and usually wasn't very hard to tell and then occasionally some of those bad guys would just look they looked completely evil they looked like sadists they look like murderers they they had the face of evil you could see it in their eyes and i was watching a video recently of a young beautiful young girl blonde hair kind of unkempt blonde hair a little bit wild and she had a like a constant persistent smile sort of shining on her face she had young young little innocent eyes that were filled with hope and I watched this video and she says in the video she says my name is Louisa I'm a young lady from Denmark and

I have a burning desire to go out into the Arctic and she's going on kind of describing herself she says I'm very enthusiastic about the outdoors and outdoor activities I'm studying outdoor life in Norway for this same reason I'm trying to find my dream, she says, to go into the Arctic. But sometimes I take some detours before I end up where I want. And then the video she's got clips of her in various parts of the world on beaches and in jungles, and she's clearly a traveler. And then she says, but I'm still working my way towards the north.

A dream that has been stuck in my head. and I hope, wish, and pray that I can retrieve my dream. A dream of experiencing the feeling of kicking a dog sled through the big Arctic, about feeling the ice crystals in my face and the view of an infinite white landscape. I dream about learning and experiencing the magnificent, untamed Arctic. And the video ends with her picking up snow in her hands and she blows it innocently into the camera lens and she's laughing when the video fades. But she was not able to fulfill her dream. In fact, she entered a nightmare and didn't return on December 17, 2018.

That girl who made that video, her name was. was Louisa Jesperson and her friend Marin Euland another beautiful young lady from Norway they were both subhuman savages as they camped beside a hiking trail in Morocco and these despicable and vile people and I use that term loosely these these these that murdered these two girls actually recorded their disgusting acts and posted them online They sawed through their throats with butcher knives while they were still alive While they were screaming gasping for air while they were begging for mercy and while they were eventually gurgling in their own murderers put his foot on one of the girls heads to hold her neck in place while he finished the job

sub-humans pledged their allegiance to ISIS and shouted it's Allah's will as they killed these innocent girls sick depraved vile creatures here is another example of evil I started doing time when I was 11 years old and have been doing practically nothing else since that What time I haven't been in jail I have spent either getting out or getting in again. I have no desire whatever to reform myself. My only desire is to reform people who try to reform me. And I believe the only way to reform people is to kill them. In my lifetime, I have murdered 21 human beings.

I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies, larcenies, arsons. and last but not least, I have committed sodomy on more than 1,000 male human beings. For all of these things, I am not the least bit, sorry. I have no conscience, so that doesn't worry me. I don't believe in man, God, nor devil. I hate the whole damned human race, including myself. I prayed upon the weak, the harmless, and the unsuspecting. This lesson I was taught by others might makes right.

Carl Pansram number 31614. And that is the opening of a book called Pansram Journal of a murderer. Carl Pansram was evil. He was institutionalized for most of his life in detention centers and prisons. and whatever may have been good about him at one time or another was eventually suffocated. And what was left was pure unmitigated hatred and malevolence. And while he was going through one of his final stints in prison, he made friends with a young prison guard by the name of Henry Lesser.

And Henry Lesser seemed like a very good, positive person, kind of had the ideal of reform and how people could be helped in his mind. And Henry asked that Pansram write the story of his life, which Pansram did. And the notes were saved and documented, and there was additional information from various supporting sources surrounding other details of Pansram's life. And all of that was put together and turned into this book. book, which though it is a very difficult read, it's, in my opinion, worth reading to gather a better understanding of human nature and specifically of the capacity for men to commit evil. So again, most of this that I'm going to read from the book is his writing, Carl Panzram's writing.

And here we go back to the book. I was born June 28th 1891 on a small farm in Minnesota My parents were of German descent hard-working ignorant and poor the rest of the family consisted of five brothers and one sister all of whom are dead except three of us brothers and our sister All of my family are as the average human beings are they are honest and hard-working people All except myself I've been a human animal ever since I was born and When I was very young at five or six of age, I was a thief and a liar. And the older I got, the meaner I got.

As fast as the older boys grew up, they also pulled out. One died. This left me, my sister, one older brother and my mother. My sister and I were sent to school during the days. And as soon as we came home in the evenings, we were put to work in the fields where my older brother and my mother were always at work from daylight until long after dark sometimes. My portion of pay consisted of plenty of work and a sound beating every time I looked cock-eyed or done anything that displeased anyone who was older and stronger and able to catch me and kick me around whenever they felt like it. And it seemed to me and still does now that everything was always right for the one who was the strongest and every single thing that I'd done was wrong.

Everybody said so anyway. But right or wrong, I used to get plenty of abuse. everybody thought it was all right to deceive me, lie to me, and kick me around whenever they felt like it, and they felt like it pretty regular. That is the way my life was lived until I was about 11 years old. At about that time, I began to suspect that there was something wrong about the treatment I was getting from the rest of the human race. When I was about 11 years old, I began to hear and see that there were other places in this world besides my own little corner of it. I began to realize that there were other people who lived nice, easy lives and who were not kicked around and worked to death. I decided that I wanted to leave my miserable home.

Before I left, I looked around and figured that one of our neighbors who was rich and had a nice home full of nice things, he had too much and I had too little. So one night I broke into his home and stole everything to that, to my eyes, had the most value. Those things were some apples, some cake, and a great big pistol. Eating the apples and cake and carrying the pistol under my coat, I walked to the railroad yards where I caught a freight train going to the west, where I intended to be a cowboy and shoot Indians. But I must have had my wires crossed because I missed my connection somewhere. Instead of going out and seeing the world, I was caught, brought back home

and beaten half to death and sent to jail from there and from there to the Minnesota State Training School at Red Wing, Minnesota. Right there and then I began to learn about man's inhumanity to man. So he's off to a rough start. Yes. And it was his father had left him, and I didn't mention that part. Obviously, I'm not reading every part of the book, but his father left the family, and then it was up to his mom. Sounds like he had the more than his share of the rebellious streak that I think most kids have.

And then he shows up at this Minnesota State Training School. Back to the book, when I first went to the Minnesota State Training School, back to the book. When I first went to the Minnesota State Training School, I was about 12 years old, lively, healthy, and very mischievous, innocent, and ignorant. The law immediately proceeded to educate me to be a good, clean, upright citizen, and a credit to the human race. They trained me all right in that training school. During my two years, I was trained by two different sets of people to have two different sets of morals. The good people tried to train me to be good and the bad people did train me. to be bad. The method that the good people used in training was to beat goodness into me and all the

badness out of me. They'd done their best, but their best wasn't good enough to accomplish what they set out to do. The more they beat me and whipped me, the more I hated them and their damn religion. Oh yes, we had plenty of church and religion all right. I used to be pretty ignorant and not able to read very well, so I always had a hard job learning my Sunday school lessons. For failure to learn these lessons, I was given a whipping. During the first year, I was there. I used to get a beating every Saturday night and sometimes three or four more during the week for doing something I wasn't supposed to do or for not doing something I was supposed to do. Oh, yes, I had plenty of abuse.

They had various methods of punishing us for doing wrong and for teaching us to do right. The most popular with them was to take us to the paint shop, so-called, because there they used to pay. paint our bodies black and blue. Naturally, I now love Jesus very much. Yes, I love him so damn much that I would like to crucify him all over again. I was too dumb to learn anything in school, so they took me out and put me to work all day, washing dishes and waiting on tables in the officer's dining room. Right there, I began to get a little revenge on those who abused me. When I served some food to some of the officers, I used to urinate in their soup, coffee or tea, and masturbate into their ice cream or dessert

and then stand right beside them and watch them eat it. They enjoyed it too because they told me so. I wish they could read this now. The next thing I tried to do was poison that Mr. John Moore by putting rat poison in his rice pudding. But they caught me, beat me, and put me out of the dining room. About that time, I began to try and figure out some way to punish those who punished me.

The only thing I could figure out, was to burn down the building in which the paint shop was located this I did I got a long thick piece of heavy cotton string wrapped it around and around a long round stick and lit what end of it and hit it in the laundry near some oil-soaked rags that night the whole place burned down at a cost of a hundred over $100,000 nice eh some of the boys who were cleverer than I finally put me wise to how I should perform if I ever wanted to get out of that joint. They told me to act like I was a very good boy,

tell everybody I met how much I loved Jesus and how I wanted to go home and be a good boy, go to school and learn to be a preacher. I done just as they suggested, and I'm damned if it didn't work out just as slick as hot grease through a tin horn. I was called in before the parole board one day,

and there I told them all the lies in hot air I could, and they gave me a parole and let me go home. In that way, I first, found out how to use religion as a cloak of hypocrisy to cover up my rascalities rough way to kick things off yeah but you almost like you know you talk about like evil you almost feel it for him though oh you're almost or on his side kind of like yeah everyone was just beating you up your whole life making just grinding you around beating you up and

then like yes you're getting that's how you feel right now yeah well it's it's one of those things that's going to be you know yeah you feel sympathetic for someone and then you as as that person moves through life first of all it's there's other people that have been through worse things that turn out great and wonderful human beings and there's other people that go through less that turn out worse right so there's it's it's a I'm no psychologist but there's there's it's it's things that's troubling about this. Yeah. And as you as you hear what he goes through and what he turns into, it's, yeah, it's,

it's definitely a challenge. And, you know, at the end of the day, in, in my opinion, like, hey, you're still responsible for your actions. And, hey, we get it that you went through some hard things. That doesn't give you an excuse to behave in, in an, in, you know, in, you know, immoral way. It just doesn't. Yeah. Doesn't. I'm sure that,

you know, like he was saying how he's, you know, pissing in the soup and whatnot. I mean, I'm, it, I'm assuming that was of the people who were like trying to correct them and, you know, beating them more. Like the staff. You know, yeah.

The staff of the school where he was being trained at. Yeah. So I think that's sort of why you're like, kind of feeling for him because it's like, oh yeah, you're getting direct revenge on that kind of thing. And you're, of course, you're angry kid. Yeah. Of course what you went through. But then, yeah, once you start just taking it out like, oh, let me see an innocent person,

I'm mad at them because their life is, and then you kill them or something. Yeah. And that's when you're going to start to not feel for them. Yeah. I'm sure. I think. Yeah. Well, I think so, too.

Yeah. I guess you do get that kind of feeling like, oh, these guys are beating you up. Now you get a little revenge. Yeah, yeah. You could make a positive movie about that, right? You could make a positive story about that. Yeah. I mean, depending on where it goes from there.

So right now, you're on his side basically is what I'm here basically back to the book after serving about two years there I was pronounced by the parole board to be a nice clean boy of good morals as pure as a lily and a

credit to those and authority in the instruction where I had been sent to be reformed yes sure I was reformed all right damn good and reformed too when I got out of there I knew all about Jesus in the Bible so much so that I knew it was all a lot of hot air

But that wasn't all I knew. I'd been taught by Christians how to be a hypocrite. And I had learned about stealing, lying, hating, burning, and killing. From the treatment I received while there and the lessons I learned from it, I had fully decided when I left there just how I would live my life. I made up my mind that I would rob, burn, destroy, and kill everywhere I went and everybody as long as I lived. That's the way I was reformed in the Minnesota State Train.

school that's the reason why so that's a little bit more that that's that's where you have something in his in his personality right there's something there's plenty of people that went to this school that didn't go do what he did he made that something snapped yeah where he decided that he was just going to make his life a life of making people suffer going on back to the book i did not want to learn these lessons but i found out that it isn't what one wants in this world that one gets. Force and might make right. Perhaps things shouldn't be that way, but that's the way they are.

I learned to look with suspicion and hatred on everybody. As the years went on that persisted in my mind, that idea persisted in my mind above all others. I figured that if I was strong enough and clever enough to impose my will on others, I was right. I still believe that to this day. So this is just twisted. It's really it doesn't take long for him to get pretty twisted

And like there's a lesson here of the lesson that he talks about if I found out that isn't in the What one wants in the world that one gets it's like that's actually an important lesson Like you don't always get what you want But then taking that to say hey if I'm strong enough and I can force my will on things Then I'll get what I want more often Yeah and that he did say clever enough too Yeah which kind of it's weird because like a real low super low level of that still goes on I think with

with a lot of people oh there's no doubt about it you know with justification and you know how like you know you'll you'll you'll justify things in your head you know be like oh you know when you do something bad or you do something you know is unfair even that kind of low level stuff like it's not hurting no bunch for sure but it's like maybe not fair or something like that and you just justify in your head. And you know, like some people, they're clever. Like, they're smart. Yeah. So they can justify. Their justifications are way more legit seeming because they're real smart. They can just, you know. Yeah. It's kind of like what lawyer. You see the lawyers do on the movie. You know, you paint someone to be like someone like what the, you kind of, you kind of

take things out of context and put other things in context and not supposed to be there kind of thing. And yeah, you just kind of paint this picture in your own mind, why what you're doing is right. And of course, in other people's mind too, you know, and you're clever enough to. Why it? Yeah. You're justifying it to yourself. And he's not even talking about that. He doesn't need to justify it to himself.

He's doing what he's doing to get what he wants. Yeah. And his use of being clever isn't to justify to himself. His use of being clever is just to outwit people and take advantage of him. Yeah. Be a con man. Beyond a con man. And he gets so he's in and out of prison.

And he goes back into prison. He gets out of prison. He goes back into prison. Here at this point, he broke out of prison. He hooks up with a guy named Jimmy Benson. Back to the book, he showed me how to work the stick up racket and how to rob the poor boxes and churches. I in turn taught him how to set fire to a church after we robbed it.

We got very busy on that, robbing and burning a church regular every chance we got. When we got tired of riding a train, because this is their, you know, hitching on these trains. When we got tired of riding on a train, we used to open up the journal boxes, take out the greasy waste packing and throw in some sand or gravel into it they wouldn't get far with that car so they get done riding a train and they just destroy it they you know they ruin the gear boxes just general destruction of everything continues in and out of prison one time he's drunk and here's a guy talking about the army and ends up enlisting in the army back to the book i was only in the army a month or two when I got three years in US military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. I had the job of

swinging an 18-pound hammer in the rock quarry most of my bit. My number was 1874 and my name was Carl Pansram. There I'd done 37 months. I'd done plenty of work and I had plenty of punishment and the only good part of it was that they didn't try to hammer any more religion into me. At this time of my life I was about 20 years old, six foot tall and weighed up by 190 pound of concentrated hell-fired man-inspired meanness I was strong as two or three average men I had to be to be able to withstand some of the punishments and labor that I went through during my three years in the US military prison one of my tasks and punishments while there was to be shackled to a 50-pound iron ball for

six months during that time I wore the ball and chain day and night slept with it and work with it on. My work was in the rock quarry and that was three miles from the prison. The gang of about 300 convicts and 40 screws used to march out in the morning and back at night. The other men had to carry nothing except themselves. But my part was to load my iron ball, an 18 pound hammer, a pick and shovel and a six foot iron crowbar all into a wheelbarrow and marched behind the line of cons out to the quarry and work there for eight and a half hours in the hot Kansas sun, busting big rocks. But all that treatment did one good for. thing for me. The worst food was and the harder they worked me, the stronger I got.

That's what I was going to say. So he got a good workout. I'm already big. And you think, yeah, he's six feet 190 pounds back in, what is it, 1900 or whatever? He's a yokes dude back then. And then he's doing all this hardcore physical labor. And yeah, he's turning into a very scary dude. back to the book I was discharged from prison in 1910 by the way can you imagine you're in the army for a couple months and you get put in the Leavenworth for three years I was the spirit of meanness personified I had not at this time got so that I hated myself I only hated everybody else Before I left there I sung him the same old song and gave him the same line about how I sure loved Jesus and what a nice young man I was and how much much good it had done me to be sent to that prison. I don't know if they believe me or not,

but they all said they did anyway. They all declared that I was pure as a lily and free from sin. Again, there's a bunch of traveling. There's a bunch of, he's a constant criminal. And there's another thing we realize back in this day. The reason he named, he said, oh, at this time I was Carl Pansram, is because he changes his name a bunch

because that's just what you would do back then if you were a criminal. And there's no electronic traffic. There's no phone numbers no cell phone. There's not even phone like phones in everyone's houses So you can get away with murder quite literally and he does But he he's maybe not the best criminal as well because he gets caught a lot You know for robbing and stealing and part of it's because he has like a doesn't care out of it So he gets put he gets arrested a different time he gets put into a chain gang and he eventually Breaks away from escapes

the chain gang and then he goes continuing skipping trains and ends up with an Indian guy and They worked together as a little team and they rob a guy and here we go back to the book the Indian tied him up First he took off his belt pulled his pants down to below his knees and tied his legs together then he tied his hands behind his back Then he tied his hands to his feet pulled together Then he stuffed a sock in his mouth and tied a handkerchief tight over that and then tied him to his tree. He was then ready to leave him and walk away, but I wasn't through yet. I figured while I had such a good chance as that, I would commit a little sodomy on him. This I proceeded to do. And he mentions at one point that he hooked up with a girl and got some kind of VD. And then he was

like, oh, girls, they're dirty. And so that's why he goes after guys now. To the book, at night while I was riding the freight trains, I was always on the lookout for something to shoot or trying to stick up the hobos that I met on the trains. I looked them all over and whenever I met one who wasn't too rusty looking, I would make him raise his hands and drop his pants. I wasn't very particular either. I rode them old and young, tall and short, white and black, it made no difference to me. Some months later, I was pinched at Chinook, Montana for burglary. I quick took a plea of guilty and got one year at the state prison at Deer Lodge, Montana. When I got there, I met my old partner, Jimmy Benson, who was doing 10 years for robbery.

I stayed there about eight months and escaped. He's also good at escape. He escapes all these things all the time. A week later, I was arrested in Three Forks, Montana for burglary under the name of Jeff Rhodes. I pleaded guilty and got a year and was sent back to Deer Lodge where I was at once brought to court and given one year for my escape under the name Jeff Davis. Out of these three sentences, I served 23 months. In that prison, there was only work for a few men, and I wasn't one of those. All the cells were for two men in each cell. Each man could choose his own cellmates and get a new one anytime he wanted. I used to want a new one pretty regular.

At that place and time, I got to be an experienced wolf. I knew more about sodomy than old boy Oscar Wilde ever thought of knowing. I would start in the morning with sodomy, work as hard at it as I could all day and sometimes half the night. I was so busy committing sodomy that I didn't have time left to serve Jesus as I had been taught to in those reform schools. He gets out of that prison. As soon as I got to Oregon and gets put in another prison. As soon as I got to Oregon State prison, I was in more trouble. I swore I would never do the seven years and defied the warden and all his officers to make me.

Gets put in solitary confinement. Here we go in solitary confinement. There are coolers and coolers. Some are bad and some are worse. None are good. Some are cold and wet. Some are hot and dry. Some you freeze and others you roast and sweat.

In all, you are hungry and thirsty and filthy and dirty. and some you stay a day others a week and there have been times when I have been in the cooler a month or more Bread and water isn't very nourishing and neither does it generate clean thinking in a person's mind The milk of human kindness generally curdles and turns into sour under such conditions The more cooler you get the more heat and hate there is in your heart In every joint I was ever in there was always some form of torture that was on tap I I usually got my share of every kind there was. I've had them all at one time or another.

And then he goes on through a bunch of different torture that they would use on these prisoners from like straight jacket type things. There's something called the snorting pole, which is a post about 12 feet long. You get basically tied to it. You get whipped. Back to the book. When the lash begins to take away little bits of

hide and the blood begins to run, then the sucker begins to jerk and yelp and snort. That's why it's called the snorting pole. When a man is let down after being whipped, he has blood on his back and murder in his heart. That's all about the snorting pole. There's the bat and the paddle. Here's this thing. The restraint machine. The restraint machine barefooted standing on a cold, damp concrete floor backed up to an iron bar door hands behind cuffed to the door a large belt under my arms around my chest pulled tight to the door standing in that position for four hours then let down for one hour to eat my bread and water then four hours more than to bed which was a board no blankets in the morning bread and water and then four hours more and so on for a stretch of anywhere from

five to 14 days that was the limit that's your restraint machine you've ever Okay, I know you're claustrophobic, right? Sure. Yeah, I mean, you are. Yeah. But sometimes, I don't think I'm claustrophobic, but sometimes I want to move a limb, right? You know what I'm saying?

Oh, yeah. And for instance, you're on a plane, and you're all tight in an economy seat up against the bulkhead, and there's, like, it's tight. Yeah. You know that part of the plane towards the back where the bulkhead kind of curves in,

so you're even losing a little bit more space. Yeah. And you just want to move, you know? But you can't because the seatbelt light just went on or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Now imagine doing four hours like that for 14 days, four hours twice a day for 14 days.

Yeah. That's harsh. Yeah, that's actually real harsh. So there's like two ways. And to Sam, because claustophobia usually is like, you know, you go in an elevator and you feel it that kind you know I don't have it like that but yeah

maybe I'm a little bit more sensitive to those kinds of scenarios side control side control claustrophobia well you know I used to yes but this is more what it is to put accurately did I heal you you healed me yeah

actually what it was was like you just I just got in better shape that's all because like it wasn't it was the idea that I'm like tired and I won't be able to get out of here like I'm stuck forever I'm gonna die here. That's the feeling you get. But when I wasn't tired, I'm like, oh, no, I can cruise down here. I just, I don't know. I just felt like it was better. The last time we rolled, didn't you have a little issue down there? No. Are you sure?

Yes. I don't remember having any issue recently, probably like years. It's been years. But that's the feeling is what it is. So, but here's, when I got an MRI on my arm. You tapped to something the other day that's not a tapping offense. I forget what it was. It was your, that, that forearm on my throat, remember? Yeah. It was a tap am fat. Like I couldn't, it was too, like, you did it too hard for me to have time to figure,

okay, I can turn this way or whatever to relieve the pain. You did it like too fast. Oh, I did it with like a little extra, like a little. Yeah, it wasn't like a strike or nothing like that. But yeah, it was like, I would have got, my throat would have got injured if I would have like, took more time. Thanks for that. way. I had a MRI on my

Bicep. Oh, yeah. Belling that tube. Yeah. So, which is fine if you're just in a comfortable position. It can be. When you open your eyes and you look how freaking the tube is like inches in front of your face and you're in there. Yeah, I can kind of jam me out, but you just close your eyes and be like, oh. That's a big, it's a class of ruby is a big deal in the in the seal teams, especially because you had to lock out of the sub submarine chambers, which isn't in the old days, It was a submarine chamber that wasn't built for seals to lock out of.

It was built for an escape hatch if there's an emergency on the submarine. What do you mean lockout? You're underwater on a submarine. And you go into a little chamber. And once you're in the little chamber, it fills with water, it equalizes with the outside. And then the door opens up and you can swim out. That's called a lockout chamber. And we used to do that.

And we still do it, but like it's a little bit more of a specialized group that does that now. But it used to just be a general thing for if you were in the dames. You would do that. And I mean, definitely, because you're in there with equipment. For how long? A while. It would take a long time to get a whole seal squad out. Like what?

Like, what's a while? Well, you'd be in that little chamber for probably 15 minutes at a time. But here's the thing. You're in there. There's two major situations going on. Number one, you're not just in there. You're in there with like one or two. other guys.

Yeah. But you're also in there with equipment. Yeah. So you got bags of weapons, waterproof weapons. You actually have your boats in there. And they're, so it's all tight. Yeah. And here's what would really freak you on.

So the water starts to fill. It starts to fill up. Yes. And then as it's filling up, it gets to a point where you've got to keep it equalized and you're using these little pressure valves. One, you basically crank a valve that pushes air into the chamber. Oh. And so that.

pushes the water down. If you're not good, then you're going to mess up the pressure and you're going to, it's called losing the bubble because there's a bubble of air that you're just sitting there breathing. If you don't equalize

the pressure well, then that bubble just keeps going up and then you lose the bubble. The bubble's gone. Which I think is where the, that's what I always thought losing the bubble. You've heard that term, right?

No. Okay, when someone says, oh, he's losing the bubble. You've never heard that before? No. Well, we would say it, And I've heard it, I've heard civilians say it too. So I'm pretty sure that it's, yeah.

But I think that's where it came from. It's like, oh, you're losing the bubble. And I've been in the chamber when someone lost the bubble. Yeah. And I remember, I was telling the guy, I was like, hey, you're losing the bubble. You're losing the bubble. You're losing the bubble. And then I'm underwater.

And then you've got to find the octopus, which is the regulator, which you have, you have air tanks just in there, like compressed air tanks, like scuba tanks that are strapped to the wall just in case someone loses the bubble. And what do you got to find? They got a chem light on a red chem lights and you're just digging around. You're going to grab the red chem light. You find your thing. You start breathing and you find the valve and you crank it.

And then the bubble comes back. But yeah. Yeah. But people you, if you're claustrophobic in that situation, it's going to be problematic. Big time. Yeah. Huge. Yeah.

Just the expression on your face at this time tells me that you would not be too comfortable. How big was it? How big is the chamber? It's smaller than the, the area that you and I are sitting right now. Yeah. Yeah. So my MRI for my bicep, I had to go like this, like my hand up in the air. Well, you know, I'm laying down, so it's not up in the air.

But like, so you're not laying, laying regular. One hand is up. Okay. And for 15 minutes in that little teeny tiny tube. So like how you're saying, I could lay on my bed like that. Did they sedate you or anything? No. You just dealt with it.

Not, yeah, this is. I've had a few MRIs in my time. But I just relaxed or went in there. No deal. I didn't lose the bubble like you did. Right. No, no, no, no. The thing is I did. Well, here's the thing. So this is what I really admitted to myself. Okay, I have like a little sensitivity to it. So he's like, okay, you got to put your arm up because it, you know, and you can't move. So I'm thinking, man, I can just lay it on my bed like this all day. I'll sleep like that, you know? But why am I super like nervous about this? So I go in and he's putting me in and I feel my heart just start being real fast. Like full on. I'm like, oh, man. But, um,

But I mentally pushed through it. Like the kind of after like not even a minute, but maybe like 30, 45 seconds. I'm like, uh, you know, I could do it. Have you ever watched guys cave diving? Like, what do you mean? No. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. With an underwater, but it's an underwater cave. Yeah. And you're diving. Yeah. That can get a little tight. Yeah. So, and that I, we, um, on Kauai, there's a place called the blue room.

And it's that. And here's the thing. So it's basically a cave. walk up this mountain, maybe like, I don't know, 50, 50 yards, maybe, up a mountain. And you go into the mountain. Well, no, no, the mountain is huge. You just walk up 50 yards.

Then there's a cave. That's where the cave is. And you go in the cave and depending on you know, how much it rained or whatever, there's a little lake in the cave. It's really cool. We used always go. At the back of the cave is a little teeny tiny hole. teeny tiny hole. If the water's too high and it covers that

hole, it's still a hole, but you've got to go underwater. So at the end of that, basically that hole is hallway that you swim through you can't touch the bottom it's like you swim through this little hallway and it goes and it curves this is maybe maybe a 20 20 yards day and not 20 that's that's you know maybe 10 yards in the dark though and the only light is this glowing bright blue light that the water creates from the sun that shines in the water and kind of reflects up it's really it's really nice but yeah if you have the issue with that especially if When you get to the other side, what are you?

It's a big room in there. Oh. And is that open to the light? The light from the water lights up the room. So it's, yeah, it's really weird. That's why you kind of go because it's really awesome. The thing is there's nothing to hold on to your treading water in that room. So it's like. Oh, the room is deep water.

Yeah. You can't touch. It's a huge lake in there, you know. So you can't touch the bottom at all. And, um, but if the water level is high enough where that cave or the hallway will call it is like, this, you know, where you can just barely, it gets like, oh, this is kind of nerve-wracking, for sure.

But sometimes it's real low and it's cool you just swim through. But if it's like your first time where you have a little bit of claustrophobia in water like that, you'll jam you up for sure. But I never had a problem with that one. It's that, it's what you said when you know you can't move.

Yeah. But if you know, you can't move, also, you can just stay there. It's weird. It's like a psychological thing, you know? Yeah, no, it's definitely a psychological. But yeah, I get that every once in on the plane too. The restraint machine. So I guess that would be really effective against some people that have a little claustrophobia. Or they would just go nuts.

The thing is, though, okay, let's say all these methods are bad, right? Let's say all these methods of reform are bad. I feel good about saying that, yeah. Okay, and then you say, okay, if I was in that situation, I would do everything I could to get out of the scenario where like okay I got arrested and I got put in the restraint machine and I got the beat with a paddle and I got all those things happen to me guess what you know what I'm gonna do is try and stay clean a little bit right get on the maybe get on a little bit of a path a better path yes sir yeah it didn't work at all no at all he didn't care yeah well it

kind of makes sense that like when what did he say when after the snorting pole or whatever like oh you just flood on your back yeah murder on your mind of it yeah yeah That seems like because even the claustophobia thing on the on the what's that called the restraint situation Four hours every like every session all day you know like perhaps after a while you're like you're gonna get used to that or you're gonna go so nuts that you're just gonna faint or I don't know something like that Either way there's a part of your mind I would think I don't know this is just what it feels like listening to it I feel like I would just be so nuts at the end like I would like I wouldn't care about that restraint thing I would just care about like murdering person or something. I could see how that could go.

Yeah. I mean, I personally would... I would probably try not to go there anymore, but that's just me. Yeah. So maybe as a reformer, if you cross the line and you make someone snap, now you're no longer being productive. No.

This is true with your kids. And maybe you haven't experienced this yet. But you can push your kids to a point where they don't care. Yeah. Like, oh, I'll take this away. I'll take this away. And then all of a sudden they go, I don't care. Take it.

They throw their toy, you know the toy that you're threatening? They throw it at you. Yeah. Take it. Remember the breakfast club? Remember that movie? I do remember. Okay, remember the part, that guy John Bender.

What was his role? I forget the actor's name. But anyway, I'm just trying to play. Bender is his name. Which guy is? Which character? The bad guy. The bad kid.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, hey, did Barry Manalo raid? Or did you raid Barry Manelow's wardrobe? And he's like, I'll give you the answer to that next Saturday, saying, like, you got another detention here. next Saturday. And then he says something else. He goes, then you get another Saturday.

And he's like, well, I'm free the Saturday. You know, he did that. He was after all. He's like, I don't care. Yeah. He's like, you really didn't care. And then he's holding up the horn. Two months, Bender. I got you two months. Yeah. That was good. That was a good part there. So yes, you can't push it too far. And obviously, from a leadership perspective, we'll just go for a little leadership perspective. Sure. There are things you can do to the people that work for you where they won't care anymore.

Yeah. And now you now you're done. You have you lost control over. Yep. You've lost control over him. So don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. He talks about this electric, electric shock too.

They called the hummingbird. First, an ordinary steel bathtub with, in which four or five inches of ice cold water, the victim is laid down and there and chained hand and foot. Then the chief torture enters the scene. He is dressed in ordinary clothes and, and has only a rubber slicker in a pair of rubber gloves on his hands. In his hands, he holds a common sponge. The sponge is connected to electric battery by wires. The switch is turned on and the torture advances on the victim. He first begins on the soles of the feet by gently rubbing the charged sponge there and then

gradually working his way up to the body and to the head. The sensations to the victim are that there seems to be millions of red hot needles sticking into him. The agony is intense. Two or three minutes and the victim is ready for the grave or the madhouse. Yet there is not a single mark or bruise on his whole body. A physician stands beside, this is sick. A physician stands beside the victim and every few seconds feels the pulse and examines him when he judges that the victim is exactly on the verge of madness or death, he gives the signal to switch off the current.

Then the victim is thrown into a cell where he is left for a few days or weeks. Yeah. That's weird. the sponge how they put the sponge there yeah like on lethal weapon one he got he got uh rigs with that marriage yeah yeah yeah and I remember

but he has that's what it made me think of when he had the sponges yeah he's in the shower all tied up like that and he keeps like hitting him yeah he's like hit him again yeah those sponges I wonder what that that's about though the sponge it conducts the electricity yeah because it was filled with water water conducts

it doesn't leave a direct mark it's just hitting you with like a big Shock pillow of shock It continues on he gets eventually gets out of that prison and any actually broke out of that prison and then he's now he's just on like full Crime mode I don't even know what goes beyond crime mode but just full Stealing raping murdering swindling He steals enough money he works on a bunch of different boats and eventually steals enough money to buy a yachts So he bought a yacht, yeah, and I don't know how big the yacht was, but it wasn't small

And here we go back to the book on my yacht I had quarters for five people But I was alone for a while then I figured it would be a good plan to hire a few sailors to work for me Get them out of my yacht get them drunk commit sodomy on them robbed them and kill them This I'd done every day or two I would get plenty of blues booze by robbing other yachts there the Barber two was one of them. I robbed her a dozen or so others around there. I was hitting the booze pretty hard myself at that time. Every day or two I would go to New York

and hang around 25th Street and size up the sailors. Whenever I saw a couple who were about my size and seemed to have money, I would hire them to work on my yacht. I would always promise a big pay and easy work. What they got was something else. I would take them and their clothes and

gear out to my yacht at City Island. There we would go and wine and dine and when they were drunk enough, I would go to bed. Or they would go to bed. When they were asleep, I'd get my 45 Colt automatic army pistol. This I stole from Mr. Taft's house and blow their brains out. Then I would take out a rope and tie a rock on them and put them into my rowboat. Row them out in the main channel, about one mile and drop them overboard.

They are there yet, ten of them. I worked that racket for about three weeks. Eventually gets on another ship. Loses that. It kind of gets... People are suspect. He gets on a ship to Europe. From Europe, he goes to Africa.

In Africa, he buys a girl. I paid a big price for her. I bought her from her mother and father for about $8 in American money. The reason I paid such a big price for her was because she was a virgin. Yes. So she said. She was about 11 or 12 years old. I took her to my shack the first night and took her back to her father's shack the next.

I demanded my money back because they had deceived me by saying the girl was a virgin. I didn't get my money back, but they gave me another younger girl. This girl was about eight years old. I took her to my shack and maybe she was a virgin, but it didn't look like it to me. I took her back and quit looking for any more virgins. I looked for a boy. I found one. He was our table waiter.

I educated him into the art of sodomy as practiced by civilized people, but he was only a savage and didn't appreciate the benefits of civilization. He told my boss, and the boss man fired me quick, but before he did, I licked the hell out of him. The boy, 11 or 12, came bumming. Another boy about 11 or 12 came bumming around. He was looking for something. He found it, too. I took him out to a gravel pit about a quarter-mile. from the main camp of the Sinclair oil company.

I left him there, but first I committed sodomy on him and then killed him. His brains were coming out of his ears when I left him, and he will never be any debtor. He is still there. He ends up murdering another six people in Africa on a boat. He chartered a canoe and then kills everyone in it, and then signs on to a ship that's and back to New York. That was the summer of 1922. He arrives back in America. Back to the book in Salem,

Massachusetts, I murdered an 11 or 12 year old boy by beating his brains out with a rock. I tried a little sodomy on him first. I left him laying there with his brains coming out of his ears. Went down towards New York, robbing and hell raising as I came.

In January or February of 1923, I got a job as a watchman at 220 Yonkers Avenue, Yonkers, New York. While there I met a young boy of 14 or 15 whose name was George and whose home was in was and is in Yonkers I started to teach him the fine art of sodomy but he had but I found he had been taught about it all and he liked it fine I kept him with me until I left that job of night in April of 1923 the kid George got scared and I let him go home to yonkers when he got there

he told the police all he knew about me which wasn't much but it was enough for the cops to come looking for me they caught me in my yacht at nyak they took me boat and all my plundered a yonkers jail there charged me with sodomy burglary robbery and trying to break jail there in and out again a few days he gets out a few days later i went to new haven where i killed another boy i committed a little more sodomy on him and then tied his belt around his neck and strangled him picked him up where he was when he was dead and threw his body over behind some bushes eventually he does his time he gets trial for the uh sodomy burglary and robbery pleads guilty and immediately given the limit of the law five years at once i was sent to sing sing and then from sing sing he gets sent to another prison

called danimura which is a notorious notorious prison says in the book of all the prisons Dana Mora was the one and only designed specifically to punish. And so now this gets really interesting because he's in this really bad prison. And there's a description that's not from him. That's just part of the book, part of the information in the book, talking about Dana Mora and how bad it is there. And then he's done all this heinous, I mean, just heinous acts that he should be killed for over and over again.

And here he is, going back to the book, I attempted to escape. I failed in my attempt, but in doing so, I fell about 30 feet to a concrete walk, breaking both my ankles, both my legs,

fracturing my spine, and rupturing myself. In this condition, I was carried to the prison hospital where I lay for five days and was carried out and dumped into a cell without any medical

or surgical attention, whatever. My broken bones were not set. My ankles and legs were not put into a cast. In fact, nothing was done except give me a bottle of lindemant, which I would have done, which would have done no good

if I had been able to rub it on myself. The doctor never came near me and no one else was allowed to do anything for me. In that condition, I was left for eight months. At the end of the time, the bones had knitted together so I could stagger around on a pair of crutches. So it's like he's complaining about his maltreatment, right? I'm not injured and they didn't take care of me. It's like, hey, bro. Yeah, you don't get any good treatment. At the end of 14 months of constant agony, I was taken to the hospital where I was operated on for my rupture and one of my testicles was cut out. Five days after my operation, I tried to see if my sexual organs were still in good order. I got caught trying to commit sodomy on another prisoner.

For that, I was thrown out of the hospital and dumped into a cell where I suffered more agony for many months. Always in pain. Never a civil answer from anyone. Always a snarl or a curse or a lying. Hippercritical promise, which was never kept. crawling around like a snake with a broken back, seething with hatred and a lust for revenge, five years of my life of this kind. The last two years and four months confined in isolation with nothing to do

except brood upon what I thought the wrongs that had been done to me, not allowed to receive letters or visits from friends. When the prison inspectors came to investigate conditions and complaints, they were told I was a degenerate that I suffered from delusions, that I was insane so they would pay no attention to me or any. that I or anyone else ever complained of. This went on for all of my five years and the more they misused me the more I was filled the spirit of hatred and revenge I was so full of hate that there was no room in me for such feelings as love, pity, kindness or honor or decency.

I hated everyone I saw. Again, it's a guy that he only sees the pain that's been caused to him but apparently doesn't see any of the pain that he's causing anybody else. Yeah. zero empathy yeah zero doesn't it sort of could it seem or could it happen like this with him where you know when he's young he gets beat down obviously not shown much affection that's that's an assumption obviously but beat down so now he has his hatred so now he inflicts pain on quote unquote others right because of the hatred he has or whatever so it's kind of like him kind of what getting even for sure lack of a better term so he gets

It's even and then he gets punished for that, right? Obviously, because you can't commit crimes like that. So he gets punished. So now he thinks it's uneven now. Hey, you know, it's just the feeling. He's not like, yes. So now he's like, oh, now that, now me being punished for what I did, by the way. But me being punished is giving me even more hate.

Now I got to, you know, seek vengeance for that. Then he does it. Then, of course, he gets, and he just keeps doing it. Yeah. So it's like this cycle. Well, there's another cycle here. And the cycle is he's blaming everyone else for the situation. Oh, yeah.

That's how. You know, he's blaming every. And at a certain point, sure. Let's, let's blame that first state penitentiary that he was in when he was a kid, the state school. Let's put some blame on them. Okay. But you got out of that.

You had another opportunity to get on the right path. And then what do you do? You just blame, blame, blame, blame. And the more you're blaming other people, you're putting yourself into a downward spiral that he's never going to get out of, obviously. Yeah. And now he's blaming. He blames the whole human race.

I mean, let's, it's, it's real easy just to sort of, he only writes about it for three sentences, but like, oh, oh,

in New Haven, I raped and murdered an 11 year old boy. Like, no, you don't get any mercy now. And you can't blame anyone else for doing that. That's no one else's fault. You did that.

Yeah. But in his mind, oh, for sure. You know how like when you hit you, let's say you flick your friend on the head joking around, right? You flick them on the head. You're joking around. Then your friend's like, hey, that was kind of hard, you know?

So he like flicked you and you're super hard. And you're like, hey, I didn't flick you on the head that hard. So you smack them, you know, and it turns into this big fight and who's to blame, right? Both guys feel like, hey, I flick you. I was just joking. You didn't have to flick me that hard. The other guy's like, why did you flick me in the first place? You know, kind of thing.

So, and I'm not saying that that's what happened. But in his mind, that's probably what it feels like. Oh, for sure, that's what it feels like. For sure, that's what it feels like. And we all can feel like that at one time or another. We think, oh, it's this person's fault. It's that person's fault. It's my parents.

It's the school system. It's the whatever. It's society. Yeah. Right? It's society. It's every other human being. Like, that's where he's at right now.

He hated everyone I saw. Yeah. That's where he's at. It's like he's the victim. And he's the victim. And you just listen to I mean it's so clear when he's talking about all these medical problems that he he's the victim Yeah, he's the victim whereas if he would have just Swapped his attitude early on and said okay what about what's happening right now even the first why did he why did he get why did he get sent to the state penitentiary or to the state school system

Because he stole a gun ran away but it ripped ripped off a family of their stuff like oh if you do that you go to prison But he didn't see that this is his fault Yeah, that wasn't his fault Yeah, he did that because because he was living in a bad home. It's like, okay. At some point, you have to take ownership of what's going on in your world.

And you can't just continually blame other people. If you do, eventually, you know who's at fault? Everyone in the world, but you. Yeah. It's true. So let's not get there. I'll tell you what, there's a pretty good transition for when I joined the Navy.

That's one thing. And I've talked about how, when I joined the Navy, it's like a clean slate. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter what you did. And that was a really positive thing for me. because all of a sudden, and it's a very cause and effect

when you're going through like Navy boot camp or any kind of boot camp, any kind of military indoctrination. If you don't do what you're supposed to do, you get punished for it. If you do what you're supposed to do, you either, A, don't get punished at a minimum or you get some type of reward.

And it's all set up that way purposely. But it's very easy, it was very easy for me to comprehend as an 18-year-old kid going, Oh, if I do this right, I will be rewarded. If I do this wrong, I will be punished. This is on me. And then the next thing that they build on top of that is,

if I let my team do something wrong, we will all get punished. If we do things correctly, we will receive at a minimum no punishment and possibly some type of reward. It was very easy for me to assemble those pieces in my young brain. And let's face it, when you're 18 years old,

I mean, my brain wasn't all that developed. Right? I mean, like, physiologically speaking, the male, like, what is it? The male frontal cortex isn't fully formed until they're like 25, right? Didn't you tell me that? Yes.

Yeah. So there you go. So there I was 18, and I yet was able to figure out, okay, wait a second. If I do this, it's on me. If I get punished, it's my fault. If our team gets punished, and again, that's a little jump.

They're kind of bring you through that little phase of like, okay, now you're responsible for you. You understand that? And once you understand that, it's like, okay, now you're responsible for your team. And some people don't make that transition. Some people, you know, within the team, oh, it wasn't my fault. It was Jimmy's fault. Yeah.

Right? And as you stay in the military longer, or as you go in any workforce, eventually you realize, okay, if we don't, if I don't work as a team, we're all. going to get punished so I need to help the team he's not learning any of this no he's not helping me that's awful back to the book my whole mind was bent on figuring out ways to annoy and punish my enemies and everybody was my enemy I had no friends that was the frame of mind I was in when my five years was up and I was turned loose to go anywhere I wanted to go my intention was to rob rape and kill

everybody I could anybody and everybody and he goes through these long kind of plans of putting bombs inside tunnels and had to get a gas mask. He was going to poison gas and he was going to steal so much money. And then with this bunch of money that he was going to get from robbing all these people and this plot that he has, with that, he says, with unlimited funds in my hands, I then intended to steal millions of dollars and killed millions of people. This I intended to do by starting a war between England and the U.S. USA sounds fantastic all right but I'm positive he could have done he goes through his whole plot of how he was going to make that happen

He was gonna bomb a British ship that was you know like here peacefully Bomb it and make it look like America did it what when diplomatic Relationships were already strained that was his plan I used to spend all my time figuring out how I could murder the most people with the least harm and expense to myself And I finally thought of a way to kill off the whole town men women children and even cats and dogs And he goes through another big plan about using arsenic and dead hogs and put him in the water supply. I mean, he goes through like detailed plants. Now, this was some interesting.

His perception of what it was like he's back in jail again. And I forget what for this time. But for all this crap that he's doing all the time, all these crimes he's committing. Back to the book, the underworld code is very simple. It is never squeal. Don't be a stool pigeon, a rat or an informer. All crooks want everybody else to believe that they are square. Cops are the same.

They all wish everybody else to think they act from principle. They're always telling everyone they meet about how much principle they have. It is against their principle to do this or that. The queer part of it is that they not only want others to believe this, but they believe it themselves. But the real truth of the matter is that they deceive themselves and mistake policy for principle. When crooks are square with anyone, it is because it is for their own interest to be so. It is good policy. When it ceases to be in their own interest to square with another one, then it becomes time

to change their tactics, and they aren't slowing doing it either. It makes no difference to them, who they snitch on, no matter if they've been loyal to each other through a whole lifetime as partners and friends, no matter if they send their friends to prison or to hell by way of rope or chair that cuts no ice. They are looking out for their own precious skins. And this is a guy also that doesn't trust anybody. So and that's actually what he said. I mean, certainly that's, there's, you can't say that about,

you can say that about a lot of people, but there's all kinds of criminals that never give up the, never, never get anyone else's names, Never rat on anybody else and they get the book thrown out of them and they take it Back to the book every child has this is interesting every child has some criminal tendencies It is your place to correct those traits and teach them the right way to live while they are young and their minds are forming Then when they do the reach the age of reason and action it will be quite natural for them to live clean upright honorable lives in that way you will stop crime at its source before it begin

As a child, a child is very easily led. Any child, if properly taught, will live the way he is taught to live. All criminals are merely overgrown children. It is in your hands to make us or break us. We, by our own efforts, are failures in life simply because we don't know any better. We don't know how to live decent, upright lives. Heredity has very little to do with the shaping of our lives. the main causes of why we are what we are is because of our improper teaching,

lack of knowledge, and our environment. Every man's philosophy is colored by his environment. If you don't want us to rob, rape, and murder you, then it is your place to see that the mental and moral misfits are properly taught a sufficient amount of useful and sensible knowledge to put their proper, and put into the proper environment where they can be best fitted to exist in life. So there you go. The nature, nurture argument,

Pansram, all nurture. It's all how you're raised. He goes on, I was born a normal human being. My parents were ignorant, and through their improper teachings and improper environment, I was gradually led into the wrong way of living. Little by little, from bad to worse.

I was sent to reform school at age 11. From that day to this, all of my life has been lived among moral and mental misfits. All of my associates, all my surroundings, the atmosphere of deceit, treachery, brutality, degeneracy, hypocrisy, and everything that is bad and nothing that is good.

It is unnatural that I should have absorbed these things and I have become what I am today, a treacherous, degenerate, brutal, savage, human, devoid of all decent feeling, absolutely without conscience, moral, pity, sympathy principle or any single good trait why am i what i am i'll tell you why i did not make myself what i am others had the making of me everyone else's fault and i'm not in the power to control it right i mean at this point he recognizes what he is but he doesn't make any effort to reform

himself. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of those two, like even with extreme ownership, right? When you're working with a team when you say it's easy to blame others. And especially when it is their fault at certain times. It's like their fault that this happened or that happened. It's like a philosophy, right? It's like an approach. It's a certain approach where if you say, okay, you know, whatever. It's their fault that this happened or whatever. It's really hard to come up with a situation when you're a leader of a team and it's the team's fault. Yeah. I haven't been able to come up with one lately.

Yeah, yeah. So, and to say it's, maybe you can. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, well, okay, we'll go with this guy. A guy on Twitter. Yeah. He said, hey, man. Why are you giving all this hate to the machine gunners shooting outside their field of fire?

Because I use that example a lot. Yeah. Hey, the machine gunner shoots outside of his field of fire. Yeah. that's the machine gunner's fault, right? No. And I said to him, hey man, I don't hate machine gunners. I hate the officers that blame the machine gunner when the machine gunner doesn't know where you're supposed to be shooting.

Yeah. That's not machine gunner's fault. Yeah. That's your fault, boss. Yeah. So continue on about the situation that you're trying to refer to. So I, I don't. Because this is like a typical little thing that I'll hear from people.

It's like, well, you know, sometimes I got to take ownership, even though it's really there. Yeah. If that's what you think, you're wrong. Okay. Yeah. No. Yeah. I dig it.

But because right now I'm not saying about whose fault it is. That's not that's not the point I'm trying to make. It's more that he's right. It is because of them. Like they or the way his parents raised him did cause him to be like this. It caused him to be like this. Didn't cause him to be. Like it didn't like his parents raising him didn't make him, you know,

sodomize that kid or whatever. He didn't, they didn't make him do it. But they're raised the way they raised them caused him. Just cause an effect, straight up. Cause him to be like that, quote unquote. Now, it's his fault. Yes, it's his fault that he's doing all these things, you know?

Because you can just not, you can not do it. That's possible to just not do it that day or at all or whatever. So yeah, as far as fault in blaming, yes, okay. You're going Sam Harris free will on me. Well, see, the thing is, I mean, I guess what I'm saying is like if you don't go into the lack of free will. Yeah, lack of free will. No, well. Not necessarily.

I'm just basically isolating the blaming part of it and then the cause and effect part of it, you know, kind of thing. Because in that case, he's right. Like, what he's saying is correct. As long as he's not saying, and it's their fault and it's not my fault. I'm not, you know. He is saying that. Yes. Okay.

So push that aside. He's right. I did not make myself what I am. Others had the making of me. It's everyone else's fault that I'm like this. Yeah. Yeah. That's not extreme ownership right there.

No. but go cause an effect on him here's my point here's my point because this is not this is a gray area right in a gray area here's the problem if he looks at it if the only lens that he looks at it through is this is everyone else's fault and he's not to blame right then guess what he's not going to make any changes if he had it little bit if he just looked at the situation and said you know what all these things happened, but some of this is because of me. Some of this is because the actions that I've taken. And I can now change my behavior so I don't stay in this mode of operating right now.

That's the difference. And he never makes that change. He never makes that different. He never sees it that way. The only thing he sees is that it's everyone else's fault. And when you, this is the thing. He goes, you can see it gradually increases. He's going from like, oh, I just hate the teachers and I just hate the wardens.

And eventually he hates everybody because it's everyone else's fault. Even people he doesn't even know because they're a member of the human race. He hates them. That's why personal responsibility is so important to teach to kids. Yes, sir, it is. So important to teach to kids. And that's one thing I think I learned. I mean, obviously I got some of it from my parents, but it was really crystal clear

in the when I came in the military because it's black and white. The gray area is gone when you go through some kind of military indoctrination the gray area is gone. You mess this up. It's your fault. You're going to get punished for it.

You still get guys, right? For sure. For sure. Drill sergeant is riding me or whatever. Or you know, Billy should have done this. Jones should have done that. It's like, okay, but it doesn't matter because you're going to pay the man.

It doesn't matter. Back to the book. I have only a little knowledge, but I have as much. much intelligence as the average person and I know I was taught wrong. I could have been taught properly and if I had been, I sure feel I would have led a far different life than I have done. You are to blame more so than I. Straight up.

Straight up. You. He's talking to us. Talking to general human, the race of human beings. That's my belief. If you are going to go on teaching others as you have taught me, then you must suffer the same as I. Here we go. He is at this point on trial and this is from like a I think this is one of the ones from a newspaper clipping or a report, but it's another part. This is so this isn't Panzeram's journal. This is some of the additional information back to the book on the stand. Pansram's eyes slid toward the table where his pistol and burglar tools lay. Prosecutor Collins whispered to an assistant who hurried over and removed the existence. to a safer place the arms of the witness chair disappeared under pans ram's huge hands as he faced the jury ignoring everyone else in the courtroom you people got me here charged with house breaking in larceny I'm guilty I broke in and I stole what I didn't steal I smashed if the owner had come home I would have knocked his brains out Pans Ram's eyes took on a strange depth as he watched the jury. There's something else you ought to know. While you were trying me here, I was trying all of you too. I've found you guilty.

Some of you, I've executed. If I live, I'll execute some more of you. I hate the whole human race. He said evenly. A juror gasped. Panseram's round head suddenly swung toward the prosecutor who looked alert and suspicious. You think I'm playing crazy, don't you? I'm not.

I know right from wrong. No delusions. I don't hear anything you don't hear. My conscience doesn't bother me. I have no conscience. I believe the whole human race should be exterminated. I'll do my best to do it every chance I get. The courtroom was now numb as Pans Ram turned to the jurors once more.

Now I've done my duty. You do yours. So he gets a long prison sentence and when he gets into prison, he actually kills one of the civilian workers there in prison, like a guy that just is like a maintenance guy who runs the laundry. And he has a beef and kills him. And this is where we start. This is one of the letters. So I talked about the guy Henry Lesser, who was a guard in one of the prisons. he was in who formed a relationship with him.

He actually says a couple times that this is the only guy that didn't try and take something from. I think the whole thing started off he gave him like a dollar to buy cigarettes or whatever and no one, according to him, no one had ever done anything nice for Pansoram in his whole life. And this guard

was the first guy to do it. So he develops a relationship with him. And so they go, they write letters back and forth. And here's the excerpt of one of those many letters back to the book. The real truth of the matter is that I haven't the least desire to reform. Very much the reverse of that is true. I would not reform if the

front gate was open right now and I was and if I was given a million dollars when I stepped out. I have no desire to do good or to be good. I am just as mean now as I can be and the only reason I am no worse is because I lack the power and the proper opportunity for meanness. If I had the power and the opportunities, then I would soon show you what real meanness was. You overlooked the fact that the law and a great many people have been trying their damnedest for 25 years to reform me. I am tired of having people try to reform me. What I want to do is reform them, and I think the best way to reform them is to put them out of their misery. It took me 36 years to be like I am now.

Then how do you figure that I could, if I wanted to, change from black to white in the twinkly? of an eye. Another letter. Same theme. I have no desire to reform under such conditions as would be required of me the way the laws of this country are today. I do not care to live any longer if I must live in prison. I would far rather die and go to hell if that's where people like me go after death. I've very thoroughly considered this matter and I assure you now what I say is the truth. I have confessed 21 different cold-blooded premeditated murders, hundreds of occasions of of cases of arson, burglaries, robberies, rapes, and other crimes. The law has by this time looked them up and verified the truth of my various confessions.

My philosophy of life is such that very few people ever get and so deeply ingrained and burned into me that I don't believe I could ever change my beliefs. The things I have done to others, the things I have had done to me by others and the things I have done to them can never be forgotten or forgiven either by me or others. I can't forget and I won't forgive. I couldn't if I wanted to. The law is in the same fix. My belief is that the life without liberty is not worth having.

If the law won't kill me, I shall kill myself. I fully realize that I am not fit to live among people in a civilized community. I have no desire to do so. If I had any choice in living any longer, the only way I would consent to do so would be to get clear out and away from all civilized people. I am so set in my ways that I cannot adapt myself to the ways of other people so that the only way for me to do would be to live by myself without any human companionship, whatever. He actually describes this island that he kind of spent a little time on when he was down in South America. He's like, send me there if you wanted to send me somewhere. Goes back.

So now he'd killed that other guy, Warnke, the civilian. Now he's going to trial for that murder. And this is a newspaper report of that trial. Back to the book, the commission heard the hard-boiled giant tell of the fun which he received in killing a man. And there isn't a man in this room I wouldn't kill. The cruel visaged, steel-eyed man told the commission. I'm mad, plenty mad right now. I don't believe there's any good in any man.

I'd like to have the opportunity to go away, gain power and brains, and then I'd like to kill off the rest of the world, the convict said. Dr. Perry asked the giant if he believed himself better than the rest of mankind. Hell no, was the reply. I've checked up on myself lately, and I know that I'm probably worse than the rest of you. I have no desire to live. If you would hang me, my troubles would be over, and I would be better. off but don't you fear hellfire a member of the commission inquired you haven't been able to prove

to me that there is such a thing pan's ram answered the man boasted in court of killing 21 persons and vowed that when his parent were his parents living he would kill them quote for bringing me into the world there are two things in this world that count as powerful money and knowledge if i could get enough money i would buy brains because brains are for sale i could get a brainy chemist and I would have them prepare me a lot of poison gas and germs. With these, I would be able to exterminate a great mass of human beings. Then I would kill myself. Society should build a great monument because I have never propagated my kind.

So that's what his little excerpt of what his trial was like. He was done. I mean, he just did not care. Back to the book, and this is the book itself. The court convened again the next morning, and the judge having been given no alternative by the hard rural jury looked down at the defendant and pronounced him guilty with no mention of life-saving phrase without capital punishment. Pansram had nothing to say concerning the sentence. Hopkins then ordered that he be remanded with to the care of the warden at the federal

penitentiary at Leavenworth, there to be confined until the fifth day of September when, between the hours of six and nine o'clock in the morning, you shall be taken to some suitable place within the confines of the penitentiary and hanged by the neck until dead. judge then announced the 90-day interval to allow for any bill of objection and appeal before the defense attorney could speak pans ram said swiftly i don't want any attorney to file for a new trial or appeal anything i am satisfied with the verdict so while he's now on death row there's a like a delegation of people that are against capital punishment and they start fighting to get him off death row and he writes them a letter and here's a little

part of that letter on February 1st 1929 I began serving this sentence at the US penitentiary at Leavenworth Kansas on June 20th 1929 I murdered one man a civilian employee of the prison by the name of Warnke and at the same time and place I also attempted to murder a dozen other men both guards and convicts the only reason I did not kill them was also because I couldn't catch them if I had given if I'm given another trial or if the death sentence should be commuted to life and imprisonment either in penitentiary or an insane asylum it will be against my will and Then he goes on to try to explain to them because he doesn't want them to think that he's crazy

Because if he's crazy then he's not he's gonna get it's you know insane asylum or you know reason of insanity Back to the book I shall try and convince you that I'm quite sane at this time I am at this time 38 years old a big powerful man strong in both body and mind my physical fitness is not as good as it once was but my mental facilities are unimpaired in any way. I've never used drugs of any kind or any type. I am and always have been a very moderate drinker of liquor, practically a total abstainer. I've never taken any disease of any kind which would have the tendency to weaken my intellect. I have never been addicted to any habits of sexual excesses of any kind over which I didn't have complete control of myself.

I choose to die here and now by being hanged by the neck until I'm dead. I prefer that I die that way. And if I have a soul and if that soul should burn in hell for a million years, still I prefer that to a lingering, agonizing death in some prison dungeon or a padded cell in a madhouse. I do not believe that being hanged by the neck until dead is a barbaric or inhuman punishment. I look forward to it as a real pleasure and a big relief for me. I do not feel bad or unhappy about it in any way. Every day since I received that sentence, I felt pretty good.

I feel good right now, and I believe that when my last hour comes, I will dance out of my dungeon and onto the scaffold with a smile on my face and happiness in my heart. Another reason why I believe that this sentence should be carried out is because I believe it is justice. And I am quite sincere when I say that this is the first and only time in my life of battling with the law that I ever did get justice from the law. One other thing I am going to tell you before I stop this letter, and that is this. The only thanks that you or your kind will ever get from me for your efforts on my behalf

is that I wish you all had one neck and that I had my hands on it. I would sure put you out of your misery, just the same as I have done with numbers of other people. I have no desire whatever to reform myself. My only desire is to reform people who try to reform me, and I believe that the only way to do reform, form to people is to kill them. My motto is rape them all, rob them all, and kill them all.

I am very truly yours, Carl Pansram. Letter, I think it was the next to the last letter that he wrote to Lesser. Henry Lesser, he says, I had no choice about coming to this world and nearly all of my 38 years in it have had very little to say and do about

how I should live my life. People have driven me into doing everything I have ever done. Now the time has come when I refuse to be driven any further. So again, I've just done, I've only done what I've done because of what other people have done to me. That's not on me. Zero responsibility.

Everything I've ever done is because of other people. Ever. Ever. It's a slippery slope that you just tried to step on a couple minutes ago. Yes, it is actually. You're thinking about it, aren't you? Yeah, and but I'm not wrong because I'm not talking about the blame. I'm talking about cause and effect.

But here's the thing, though, cause and effect is kind of like that's easy to start blaming. You know, you cause this. So what I'm saying? Technically, technically, technically. I don't want to split hairs, but technically there's a difference. My point is, if you have the, and this, I mean, I work with people all the time. And this is the most important transition that people make in their brain. is whether you're a business leader,

whether you're talking about your personal life, whether you're talking about the family, whatever you're talking about, the transition that you make from doing what you're saying right now, which is like, well, it's actually their fault. If that's in the back of your mind, okay, if that's in the back of your mind,

like, okay, the problem is it grows. The problem is you use that. The problem is, next thing you know, it's not just that's their fault, it's this that's their fault, and it's the other thing that's their fault. And it's my team's fault. say and I it's not my fault yeah yeah that I mean just to be clear though that I'm not saying

the fault part of it the fault fault and the blaming that part of it literally has nothing to do with it so what are you saying cause and effect there are two different things there's look put it this way look okay and I used to kind of say this as a joke where I don't know let's say I did something right and then I'd be like well it's not my fault it's um you know my parents fault for having me. Oh, but it's their fault. Actually, it's my grandparents' fault for having them. Oh, no, it's the, you know, my great-grand, you know, and you start

just blaming every little factor that contributed to this result, every little factor. So basically, to kind of break that apart, it's like, yeah, if my parents didn't have me, this wouldn't have happened. It's true. It's true. But the thing is, you can't just start point

blame as far as assigning blame goes. I'm not assigning blame if I'm saying, Hey, this is a factor or whatever, unless I'm doing it as a joke. You see what I'm saying? Okay. So it's like, okay, so if one you do cross the line to start assigning blame, that's when you can't be like, okay, it's everything else.

You've got to blame yourself. But let's say you're not assigning blame. You're just maybe analyzing it from an objective perspective. See what I'm saying? You can identify all kinds of causes, all kinds of causes. See what I'm saying? And they're probably true. Okay.

But not having anything to do with causing blame or assigning blame or saying whose fault it is. Is I'm saying? Check. Okay. It's just another example of how like you or we, whatever. When I talk to you a lot of the time, sometimes we will take a scenario and I'll just sort of marvel at different working parts of this scenario. Like, oh, isn't it interesting how this is this and this is this, but you could do this and look at it this way too. even though it has nothing to do with me,

you know, and it has nothing to do with any kind of actions to be taken or nothing like that. It's essentially just analyzing the scenario and being interested in it. Versus you, you always look at the scenario like, okay, yeah, cool, that's cool. You analyze it, but what do you do?

You know, your attitude is a real take action kind of approach. So I think that's where, I think that's where we're getting some misfires. See what I'm saying? You think that it's, It's like I want to base some action to be taken upon the way I'm looking at it. When it requires no action, it's just the way to sort of look at it, you know.

But if you want to take action, like, okay, so who do we blame? That's the beginning of taking action in a way. Who do we blame? What do we got to fix? Who do we got to fix, whatever, to move forward to fix a situation, to, you know, whatever, rectify it. Then you've got to be like, okay, I've got to identify the problem that I can change. And then, yeah, in that case And yeah, that problem's going to be yourself

It's the best way And if it's not, then you're not going to solve anything Yeah You're just going to sit around and blame people Yeah But does that make sense? Maybe I don't recommend it

Yeah, and that's the thing Yeah, and again, even that I don't recommend it That's like, that's super indicative of just like, yeah, you don't recommend that as a problem solving technique That's a take action approach right there is what I'm saying?

It's kind of like if we came to a stoplight and then the stoplight's red I'm like wow isn't that red stoplight super nice like it's a beautiful color of red and you're going to be like yeah but it means to stop so we're stopped I'm like no I know but isn't it kind of beautiful then it turns green wow isn't that a beautiful green light

and you're like yeah but it's it means to go and I'm like cool but it's a pretty nice shade of green See what I'm saying? See what I'm saying? It's like two different perspectives. Yeah. And then, of course, you'd roll through the green light and, you know. I'd go get after it.

All right, we'll leave that one at that. All right. Obviously, the attempts to save Carl Pandram were ceased and here's how his life ends, according to this book. At Leavenworth, the lights of the isolation had burned into a pale gray dawn on September fifth when Pansram heard the distant rattle of footsteps it was not quite six o'clock guard ballard went over to the steel door leading to an outer corridor and peered through the small barred window warden white's voice was heard and the guard turned a brass key in the lock the

door swung open white entered the isolation at the head of the procession of some 20 persons including guards and newspaper reporters. Immediately behind the warden was Marshal McIvor and the tall government hangman, carrying the leather harness over one arm. White stopped in front of Pansram's cell. The spectators pressed themselves discreetly against the opposite wall as Pansram faced them, searching through the wire mesh with his hostile eyes. He saw two men in clerical garb on the first.

fringes of the crowd and at once began to roar at white are there any bible-backed cock-suckers in here i thought you might change your mind white apologized these gentlemen came a long way to offer you comfort get him out shouted pans ram i don't mind being hanged but i don't need any bible-backed hypocrites around me run him out warden or you'll have one hell of a time getting me out of this cell Every man I'd get a hand on is going to the hospital. White knew Pansram was within a condemned man's traditional rights regarding witnesses of his own execution. The disappointed clergymen were escorted out. All right, Pansram said, let's get going.

What are we stalling for? White motioned the guards and newsmen to proceed to the exercise yard as Bollard opened Pansram's cell. Pansram helped his escorts faster that fasten the leather corset. Anything you want to say? Ask the hangman fumbling with a strap. Pansram snapped impatiently. Yes, hurry it up, you Hoosier, bastard. I could hang a dozen men while you're fooling around.

In the yard, the newsman took hurried notes. The scaffold looked strange and somehow unexpected. Dew glistened on the boards that had the raw temporary look of a structure erected for a county fairer in less than a minute the back door of the isolation opened and pans ram was emerged between ballard and the hangman pans ram was almost running ahead half dragging the taller his taller escorts white and the marshal hurried behind trailed by officers trying to look dignified as they ran in the confusion the spectators parted into two lines as they procession as the procession raced pell-mell in their direction pans ram's face was rigid and looks

straight ahead, his eyes fixed on the rope. Only at the foot of the stairs did he seem to notice the transfixed onlookers. He paused, looked slowly around, and spat twice. Then his face was forward again. Everyone's nostrils inhaled the sweet smell of new oak and hemp, and everyone's eyes followed him up the 13 steps, which he felt with his feet. He hurried up the gallows as toward the gate, pulling Ballard, and the hangman with him.

Reporters who had witnessed this event were surprised by its swiftness, and their accounts were in conflict as to the time in exact detail. There was uncertainty as to whether Pansram had been able to spit on the executioner as he had promised he would. The reporter's notebooks

had hung limp during the swift adjustment of the rope, the exploding sound of the opening doors, and the swift downward stroke of the body. Later they recalled the mist which had settled on the yard, and the indistinct figures of guards watching from a tower on the wall. The prison had been quiet.

The first bell was not yet scheduled to ring for an hour. Reporters had left the same way they came in and were relieved to find themselves outside the walls. Records of official entry regarding the death of Karl Pansram are brief. Dr. Justin K. Fuller, one of the two doctors and attendants, stepped forward and to the stretched body, underneath the gallows, placed a stethoscope gently on the chest, and palpitated the neck. Later, he dictated his report to a prison clerk.

Medical Certificate of Death, Carl Pansram. I hereby certified that I examined the body of Carl Pansram in accordance with the directions of the Surgeon General of the U.S. Public Health Service and Attorney General. at U.S. Penitentiary, Leavenworth, Kansas on September 5th, 1930, and pronounced him dead at 6.18 a.m. I found the cause of death to be dislocation, cervical vertebra, strangulation, legal execution. And so ended the life of Carl Pansram, September 5th, 1930. And while Pansram died evil, as we see certainly did not die with him. Walks among us. As we've been going back and forth on, obviously Pansram did not get many benefits in life.

But that does not excuse his actions. And we are responsible for what we do. We are responsible for our lives. and if someone's had horrible things happen to them, if they've seen horrible things, if they've done horrible things, it's still important that you don't become those horrible things, that you don't propagate those horrible things.

Instead, the hero be the savior that absorbs those things, those horrible things, and passes on good. And you do that by Pete. Treating people with respect and being just kind to other human beings. It's one of those things that I thought about this one character. This Henry Lester, this guard, this is the first person that Panseram ever thought did something nice to him. And who knows, if that had happened earlier.

Maybe it could have been a teacher at the state school. Maybe that's what tips someone. Towards the good. You know, are you that person? Can you be that person that sways someone from doing evil to doing good simply through some sympathetic words, some compassionate gesture? Think about that. Might be that person.

I might be that person. We might be that person that sets the good example by being nice, by being kind. And here's the dichotomy. At the same time, you got to be strong enough to stand up to people that think might makes right. You got to be strong enough to face the malevolent force of evil. And you have to recognize that force is everywhere. That's satanic force that is waiting. You don't fight it.

Then that force is going to win. it when you think about it this is like this is pretty psycho like pretty psychotic sick way psycho and evil for sure but i don't know if it was just the way he it is it is i do know it's the way he presented it was like it wasn't like as tragic as i don't know the other stuff that well that i've heard let me take a part of it he wrote it and he became humanized in your head. So you were listening to him talk and you were sympathizing with him and you were understanding the harshness that he went through and you were completely detached and not you didn't

humanize any of the victims at all. Right. Yes. That's what it was. Opposite of the beginning when I'm talking about this beautiful girl Louisa. Yes. And what she went, you know, you understood her. Go watch some of the videos of that girl.

Yeah. Like, just such a nice person. Yeah. Like, just like an angel. Yeah. And that's what you relate to. So as a, as a person yourself, as a human being yourself, it's very easy for you to get, for you to humanize someone, right? For you to listen to Carl Panzer.

I mean, he's, he's, here what he's been through. And he's telling it from his perspective. And all he's telling him, 11 year old boy, you don't know anything about that boy. Right. Just some arbitrary. Arbitrary. It doesn't even barely exist. It's a word.

Boy, that's all it is. But it's not. Yeah. It's not. That's a little kid Yeah That's a little kid You know

That's exactly it That's exactly what it was You're going through his struggles And sure he's not Well Yeah you know He's talking about his anger And everyone

And you're like dang Okay dang that's you know He's a mad guy And sure I'm not You know I'm not siding with him But it's it's more like You're just getting it

From his perspective You know And he dies And you're like well He deserved it Yeah yeah But if yeah If they told that

The whole story of like I don't know Any one of those victims? Any one of those victims. You'd be like, dang, man, this is heavy. It's dark. And he's sort of like, he didn't go into any kind of graphic detail. You'd just be like, and I committed sodom.

In fact, I was like, bro, how are you even doing that? You're just like, just sort of committed, tried to commit. Like, how do you do that? You know, you just, hey, come here and let me commit sodomy on you. I mean, I don't know. That's what he made it sound like. 200 pound dude against an 11-year-old boy. Yeah, but even like the, you know, his inmates or whatever.

Yeah. everyone who's just and the point is there he just sort of just well he's praying on the week he says all the time he's just picking a guy that's 132 pounds yeah but yeah and he's 200 pounds yeah six feet 200 yeah you know he was I don't know what the what the deal is but like where I grew up in New England the houses like the ceilings are lower and the doors are smaller because people were smaller yeah back in the day and this is a hundred years ago but or whatever 90 years ago but people are a little bit smaller

you know so him at 6 foot 190 is kind of like a yoked dude yeah plus with all that you know years of heart labor swinging an 18 pound hammer yeah you know he was strong yeah but he just sort of breezes over it though you know there's no graphic details just sort of yeah I just committed some bad crimes you know so that's why it's always good to

think about the perspective of the other people. Yeah. It's crazy, man. It's crazy. But, you know, and yeah, he could have, he should have, he should have chose a path is what he should have done. Like how you said, yeah, you said that, right? Well, more important, I think, because you're going to have some people out there that are going to choose the wrong path. Yes.

They're not, they're not going to go, they're not going to go in a good direction. And that's why it's important to be prepared. mentally and physically to stand up and face that man it's true you got to speaking of which yes take some jiu jitsu i'll tell you right now you take some jiu jitsu you really decrease the probability of anyone yeah attempting sodomy on you yes that is a big help reduce reduce um anyway what that means is we're doing jiu jitsu regardless of our our our what we're trying to defend ourselves from Jiu Jitsu versus evil

That's what I'm saying Yes It helps if you Yes you need all your tools to fight against evil Yeah big time There's evil in the world confirmed Yeah fully live Evil in the world right now

It's crazy every once in all I'll flash It'll flash in my mind how Valuable Jiu Jitsu is Like if you if someone said hey you can You can never go to the beach ever again or you can never do

Jiu-Jitsu ever again you know what I'm saying oh you you might have some issues no I just think that's funny how like the two biggest things you can put on the best of the beach and Jiu-Jitsu I'm just saying you gotta give up one yeah

the beach isn't even on my list I mean other than to go surfing but just going to the beach for you is a thing for me it's not really a thing yeah well put it this way like I try could I'd trade a lot. I'd give up a lot to keep Jiu-Jitsu if it was in

Yeah, here's something. If you know some Jiu-Jitsu, if you know some J-Jitsu, if you know more of J-Jitsu than most other people around you, that's a real beneficial thing. Yeah. Big time. Can you and it's funny because if you don't know

anything, you're a little bit ignorant. In fact, you're a lot ignorant and you don't even know what you don't know. And so you're sitting in you're walking across a parking lot, right? Yeah. And it's 10 o'clock at night. And someone comes to bother you and you think in your mind like I'll just do this and this and you don't know anything Yeah, it's a complete it's a complete hole in your game and the game of life is what I'm talking about the game of life. Yeah, if it is if you know Jiu-jitsu and you're walking across 10 o'clock at night and someone's gonna give you a problem you actually know what to do Yeah, and and the person that doesn't know anything they're so far

Just behind It's crazy I remember in college where, and I knew how to do a rear naked choke. And I, like, you know, just from watching USC one, two. Never trained an actual juzzi class, but I remember in college it got into this, like, fight, right? And we ended up not fighting, fighting, but, you know, the kind of we started to fight, right? And, but it was nothing, you know, whatever. Was it a friend?

No. Okay. He was like. Was it a known person? Or just a total random. Yeah. It was like at a party scenario. No, I didn't know.

And, you know, whatever. It doesn't matter what, it got broken up, whatever, and we continued, you know, our lives. But right now I'm thinking back to, like, how much I didn't know. Like, what was I even thinking? Like, what was I going to do? Just sort of throw punches, you know, or something like this. Like, even when you do get in a fight and you don't really know any, especially any jiu-jitsu, it's like, man, you sort of, it's sort of a crap shoot, really. compared to if you know jiu-jitsu, it's not a crap shoot.

It's like, oh, I'm going to either decide to do whatever I want kind of thing to this person. If you want to, if you don't train jiu-jitsu and you want to know what it's like, picture anything that you actually know how to do, like shoot a basketball or play basketball. And picture someone that never played before playing against you. Yeah. That's what's going to happen if you don't know anything. Or like, go find someone if you ever can. Find someone who doesn't know how to ride a bike or a skateboard.

Yeah. It's not everyone knows how to write a skateboard, but a bike and say, hey, let's race to the end of the block on this bike. And that person doesn't even know how to ride a bike. They've never been on a bike before. They have zero chance of beating you. I know, brats like that. Anyway. So train some jihitsu.

Train some jiu jih Tis. Go take some classes, Brad. Just go ahead and go learn how to ride that bike. Right now. Right now, in America, you can train jihitsu in so many different places. it's amazing. Yeah, it is very amazing. There's amazing places to train Jiu-Jitsu, so go train some Jiu-Jitsu.

Yeah. And when you do so, you want to do Ghi and no-Gi. So when you get a ghee, what Ghee do we get? We all know. If you don't already, origin gea.com. Go to origin-mead.com. They got rashcards on there as well, joggers as well, shirts. Supplements.

Supplements, of course. And that's a good one, too, where, and I took care of, you know, okay, remember I told you like, Oh, yeah. I didn't take joint warfare for like a few days. And you're like, what? Why not? I was like, uh, because I just, I don't know.

I forgot or whatever. And you're just, here's the thing. I admitted something to myself. Sometimes when I didn't back then when I didn't take it, it's not that I forgot. It's just that I would be like, oh, I'll take one tomorrow or something. Like I'm literally, I was literally too lazy to just go in the pantry right here. No, by the way, like three, four feet away. Yeah.

Get it. Open it up. So you put it in your routine now. bro, yes, and this is how I put it into my routine. I was like, there's no way I'm going to be able to accept the fact that I'm too lazy to spend literally 20 seconds, literally, and, you know, and take some pills. Yeah. There's like no way I can accept that. Dude, I'm glad. I'm not trapped in your brain with you. I'm kind of am, I guess, a little bit. For at least two hours a week, I'm a little bit trapped in your brain.

Well, you're the one who's correcting it because I'm like, no way. Because you're like, dude, just do it in your routine and you make it sound so easy because it doesn't feel that easy But then I'm thinking like wait, it is that easy really I'm just not allowing it so you put it by your toothbrush or whatever No, I keep it in the pantry bro 15 seconds oh, but you just do it just do it. Yeah, do a little extra Yeah, very little extra anyway Check joint warfare krill oil these are ones that I'm talking about that are in my routine every single day joints Also

Discipline Which if you don't know We have a new flavor of discipline out It's called Tropic Thunder Yep I got mine And let's Let's be real

And let's be honest What it is Pinacolada Pinacolada But I couldn't have something out there Called Pinia collada Come on man Wait Tropic Thunder isn't that a movie

Yeah Yeah And it's a good movie Laif Babin's favorite movie of all time. No, actually, I don't. But it's right up there. Leif quotes that movie a lot. I'm going to tell you.

I'm going to tell you right here. I haven't seen it. You haven't seen Tropic Thunder? It's definitely fun. I know what movie that is, though. I think. Robert Downey Jr., right? Yeah, but the most important character in there is Tom Cruise's character.

He's really, really funny. Less Goodman, I think, is his name. Anyways, so we couldn't call it in clear conscience. We couldn't call it Pena Colada. That's just wrong. Right? No, not happening. It's an alcoholic beverage. We're not doing it. It's kind of a Kind of a foo foo. Is that a good word? Foof. Kind of a foo foo sure. Like you ever been to an Italian restaurant or

Like where they where it's real it's real nice? It's too nice like they don't have like Hey can I just get some chicken parmesan over here? Yeah, and when they bring you some food it's really small Yeah, and it has like a long like name. Yeah, you know? in a different language Yeah, yeah But you know the kind They put extras on the name You know

You know fresh caught from the Appalachian Blah blah blah In the title You know It's like that kind Yeah But there's never very much food The longer the title

The less food you're gonna get Yeah probably That's a good rule right there So couldn't go Pinia Colada Too Foofoofoo We went Tropic Thunder for Lafabin Yeah And get his tropic thunder on

It sounds pretty powerful And then don't forget about Moke Additional protein Additional protein and slash dessert. Yeah. Because it will fulfill your dessert desire. Yeah.

When you get done with the rib eye steak. So what's the gain? Like when you, you know, when you're going to, when you lift weights to elicit gains, right? You have to have a certain.

Gains with a Z? Yeah. You got to eat, uh, what? Certain amount of protein. Yeah. It's like 0.7 or 0.6.

Yeah. Or just one gram. Yeah. But here. here's actually what I learned with one gram. Any protein, like any macro they eat too much of, gets turned to fat. And proteins, it gets turned to sugar first,

from what I understand. So you can't eat too much protein. Here's how you eat too much protein if you're going like two grams per body weight, per pound of body weight. What about nine grams per pound of body weight? I think that's fine. So here's a good way to do it. So in the morning, I make an omelet, right, with egg whites.

And it's good, good protein, clean, whatever. Some of the best. But when you kind of, if you're starting, which I kind of start to measure these things, or keep track of, okay, how many calories am I really eating, whatever? So I realize there's not that much protein in a regular size, even a double-sized egg white omelet with no cheese and nothing. So, boom, you make your egg white omelet, moulth train, going to. on the side make your milk shake

boom perfect oh milk shake perfect amount of protein is what I'm saying if in fact you're into you know getting stronger and whatnot yep and on top of that we got warrior kid milk which is basically going to take over

all milk drinks for children in the very short period of time because everyone wants their kid to be healthy the kid wants to be healthy and And the kid wants something that tastes absolutely amazing. So there you go.

Warrior Kid Mulk. Yeah. Remember, like, back in the day, what was the fruit, Hawaiian Punch? Oh, was that only in Hawaii? No, no, no. That was a worldwide. It's just called Hawaiian punch. But tasted like, pretty.

Are English muffins over in England? I don't know. Actually, English muffins aren't in England. It's not a British thing. Yeah, just like French fries aren't in France, right? No. I don't think. They call them like. Palm Fries.

something else. French. Anyway, you know what I'm saying. You used to drink the Hawaiian punch when you're little. Mouth all red. Tasted pretty good. Yeah. It was super strong.

Yeah. But, bro, you can't be giving your kids that. Like now with the knowledge that you, yeah, it's like abuse. Really. It's child abuse.

Yeah. And it's not just that. These regular chocolate milk, what is that? It's just corn syrup in milk. Yeah. That's all it is. And chocolate.

Yeah. And chocolate. and sugar. But when you get your kid, War your Kid Mulk, guess what? You're making them stronger, smarter, faster, better.

And it tastes good. And it tastes delicious. Because kids don't want to drink something that tastes like crap. No, they don't. Drink something tasty. So, yeah, Warrior Kid Mulk. All that stuff that we just talked about

is at origin, main.com, if you want to support. That's the good stuff. All American made. We throw that in there like it's a no big deal. Yeah. Go watch some of the videos of loom.

being remade. Yeah. It's good. Also, if you want to represent while on the path, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocco store. So you go to jocco store.com.

This is where you can get shirts and whatnot. Discipline equals freedom. Churchs. T-shirt rash guards. Plenty, yes. Other rash guards on there. Truckers hats or flex-fit hats.

Whichever one you want, man. I like the flip. Flex-fit. I'm going to put a bunch of new stuff. a bunch 2019 it's 2019 by the way

Happy New Year brother Is it funny Like you felt like you felt like you felt Kind of uncomfortable telling me happy new year Kind of like it's too like I don't like hey happy new year

We have work to do Let's go focus All right New Year New Ge See what I did there You know how they say New Year New Me Oh got it

I saw that on Twitter I think Anyway Anyway Oh yeah, I'm gonna put a bunch of new stuff there for this year. Okay, cool You can also get jocco white tea that comes in either Regular tea form like I'm drinking with tea bags or the can form like Echo's drinking with the can and the good thing about it is It's the only beverage in history of world that's guaranteed a hundred percent to give you an 8,000 pound deadlift That's 8,000 pounds

Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. Click subscribe. So annoying. Okay, just skip this part. The Warrior Kid podcast, that one you should check out. If you don't check out the Warrior Kid podcast, whether you have kids or not, check it out lots of good lessons from Uncle Jake.

So do that. And then don't forget about your Warrior Kids soap. And it's not soap for Warrior Kids. It's soap made by a Warrior Kid. Aiden, who's got his own business at Irish Oaks Ranch. com. What's that? Like earth made.

Earth made? Yeah. What the soap? Well, he gets like goats. Like if you want, you want to know the source of your, of your stuff? Oh, yes, yes.

Like there you go. What you say? Locally sourced. Well, it's not local technically. Well, depends on where you are. Yeah. But nonetheless,

made in America. That's true. Okay. So YouTube, you can also subscribe to the YouTube channel, which is the Jocco podcast YouTube channel. and are since you're putting all this new stuff on the store you're going to put some new videos up at some point in the you know America history America yeah sure uh yes I am thank you okay I know you were just telling me about one yeah you've done this before

where you tell me about a video and I never see it for four months well because like well and this one could be one of those because it's like I'm going to be like pushing it you know remember the warpath one yeah you know I pushed it in the music and I was like Hey, should I make a bunch of things crumbling down? Is that going to be dumb? Let's find out. We're going to find out. But in the process of doing that, sometimes I'm like, this is kind of dumb. So I got to change it.

So I'm going to see. I'm going to push it just out of fun. But yeah, okay. I'm going to try. How about that? More videos. And also we got psychological warfare, which we have failed. We were going to get out that for the new year.

We did not accomplish that. So that's not good. But we will work on it. And the current one is available. psychological warfare on iTunes Google Play mp3 platforms of all kinds where you can get little messages we'll call from me tracks about how to overcome a particular weakness that you might be dealing with in the moment I thought about this with psychological warfare Sometimes like when the weakness creeps in we don't like want to fight the weakness

It's like yeah yeah like we're like it's almost like okay this is me that you might not be able to to relate because you get mad when you feel like weakness sometimes weakness will like creep in and I'll look forward to not lifting you know what or like okay so there's this burger place right I'm gonna say which one and to go to this burger place is a certain burger you can get that's like off the program you can't oh okay it's not a diet burger yeah so When I you're like, oh, should I just stick to the program? But I'm really in the mood for this burger, right? And the weakness creeps in, takes hold. And then you made the decision. All right, hey, I'm going to slip on the diet right now. I'm back on the plan.

I'm back on the program tomorrow. But I'm going to slip right now. When you make that decision in your head, you feel good like, oh, I don't want to change my mind because I'm so looking forward to the burger. See what I'm saying? So it's like one of those things where the real. In the reason sometimes people won't list or actually this has never happened to me, but I'm imagining the people, if someone doesn't want to listen to psychological warfare, that's why. Because it's like, oh, they secretly they don't want to.

They accept it and it's like, you know, and they accept the weakness. Yeah. This again reminds me that I'm glad I'm not trapped inside your head for more than two hours. It's a daily stroke. Nonetheless, psychological or it's a good one. It helps. It helps. You got to, you can.

Bray, you got to accept the help. All you have to do is press play. That's the point. You got to, that's what you're saying. You have to press play. You got to, there's a little psychological part that you have to accept the fact that you're going to get a spot. It's like in the gym, right? When you need a spot in the gym, you don't put on some light weight, you know?

If you have regular weight on, you don't need a spot in, cool. But you got to make the decision to put the heavy weight on there. And then you've got to make the decision to go find someone to spot you. That part is hard for people. That's what I think. That's what I think. But once you get the spot, you got the spot. You're in no danger of getting buried underneath that bench.

Is you what I'm saying? Check. That's what psychological warfare is. Cool. Get it on what, Amazon music and iTunes, Apple Music, you know, wherever they sell MP3s. That's where you get them. Psychological Warfare. It's a good one.

Very good one. Also, vary up your workout, man. Get some more workout stuff from online. Onit.com. Go on it.com slash jaco. That's where you get. They got some good stuff on there. Ropes.

Battle ropes. Maces, clubs, kettlebells, of course. The best kettlebells. I mean, I'm the best I've ever used. I haven't used that many. But I don't even want to try out any other ones because they're the best in my opinion. And, yeah, a lot of good stuff on there. A lot of good tips on there as well.

End information. Anyway, on it. com slash jocco, good spot. Also got some book. Um, Mikey and the Dragons is out. It's live and we should not ever run out of it again. I printed a lot more. So if you want Mikey the Dragons for you, for your kids, for your neighbor kids, for your library, for your school, order,

Mikey the Dragons. It is a story that will teach your kids and all children that read it. I'll stand up and face their fears. It's so cool to see. see all the pictures that people post of like, oh, the kids like, yes, I got my kids, but, you know, for Christmas and stuff like that. Also, a lot of kids, you know, this is my kid's favorite book. Yeah.

This is now my kid's favorite book. That's pretty cool. So super stoked. If you haven't read it, check it out, Mikey and the Dragons. You can get it on Amazon. Also, Way the Warrior Kid and Way the Warrior Kid to Mark's mission. And good news, I had a deadline of finishing Way the Warrior Kid. Kid three

by New Year's Day Guess when I finished it? This morning. Yeah, New Year's Day. I had to go and finish it before I worked out because I was at my deadline. Guess what? Prioritize.

So it was your deadline? My deadline. Oh, okay. Yeah, my deadline to finish the book. You're good, man. So yeah. So that'll be coming out. But right now, get Way the Warrior Kid

and Way the Warrior Kid to Mark's mission. Those are both out. Discipline equals Freedom. Field Manual. I know a lot of folks grab that for Christmas. Appreciate it. Appreciate most that you're spreading the word to people that you know. A little gift. Give someone the gift of discipline. That's what I'm talking about. If you want the audio version, it's not on audible. It's on Amazon Music, iTunes, Google Play, and other MP3 platforms. Of course, we have extreme ownership, which was recently made some kind of chart for the audiobook.

Laif Babbin and I reading the audio. book well me and the Texas Batman reading the audio book and we also read the audio book for the the follow-up to that book which is called the dichotomy of leadership which I kicked off today with a tiny little excerpt that's the follow-on book and I think yeah some people think it's better interesting it makes sense that it is because now we've written more books and a little more experience learn more so find out for yourself dichotomy and That one's available.

We also got Eschalon Front. That's our leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. That's what we do. If you need help with the leadership at your organization, and if you have any kind of issue, whatever kind of issue you have, it's a leadership problem. It's not a problem of HR. It's a leadership problem.

In the finance department, it's a leadership problem. It's not an operational problem. It's a leadership problem. The problem that you have in your organization is a leadership problem. If you need help with that, go to Eschon Front. Front.com for details. Also, we got the muster. The muster is now live.

We got Chicago, we got Denver, we got Sydney. If you want to come to the muster, leadership conference, extreme ownership.com. All of the musters have sold out and all the musters will sell out. So if you want to come get there early, I think there's maybe a ticket or two left for the live podcast that we are recording January 9th and. New York City. If you want to come to that, try and jump on and buy a ticket real quick because it's real close to sold out.

Look forward to seeing there. Also, EF Online. So we just launched this. What this is, this is an online interactive leadership training source. It's myself and the rest of the echelon front training team puts together. We want to be able to reach more people. Some of the you know this kind of spawn from organizations that we work with where they have Tens of thousands or even in some cases hundreds of thousands of employees and they want us to train everybody on the fundamental principles of combat leadership

Obviously with our six or seven instructors we can't do that and so we had to figure out a way Way to scale The educational process and so what we did is we went to virtual and so we put this together and once we made it we said well We're making it direct to consumer and as well. So if you want to check that out, you can go to eFonline.com. EFonline.com. And speaking of EF, EF Overwatch, this is where we are connecting proven leaders, proven combat leaders from the spec ops community and from combat aviation with companies in the civilian sector that need these experienced leaders to step up and lead

their organization. So EFoverwatch.com is where you can get involved with that, whether you're someone that's looking for talent, you can click on talent seeker, whether you're someone, a vet that's looking for career, click on career seeker and fill those out. We are standing by to help you. And if you want to cruise with us, kind of hard, we can be found and communicated with on the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram, and on the Fashy. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and finally thanks to all our

military personnel out there. Thank you for standing up and taking the fight to the enemy and to our folks at uniform in uniform here at home including police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and the correctional officers and border patrol and all the first responders. Thank you for standing up to evil here at home and to Louisa Jess Pearson and Marin Yulin who were murdered in Morocco we will remember you and to the despicable savages that took your lives we will remember you and we will will remember those like you and we will never surrender to the evil that you bring into the world we will stand up we will be strong and we will win and until next time this is echo and jocco out