Jocko Podcast - 170: How to Be The Person Who Executes. Standing Up VS Avoiding Conflict. Extreme Ownership When it's Not Your Fault. How to Lead as a Subordinate.

Episode Date: March 27, 2019

0:00:21 - First actions as a new leader.  0:06:41 - Dealing with your team without punishment.  0:12:16 - Clarifying overcoming Fear of Failure. 0:15:34 - Standing up for the right thing VS avoiding conflict. 0:25:38 - How to lead when you're not "In Charge". 0:32:01 - How to take Ownership when it's not your fault. 0:47:08 - How to find time to do thing things you want to do. 0:57:20 - Would Extreme Ownership exist if Jocko would have been fired for the Blue on Blue. 1:01:23 - Should you take risks to save time/energy/be efficient. 1:10:01 - Is it inhumane to detach during extreme scenarios like loss of life. EMT, Firefighters, Doctors, etc. 1:15:39 - Tips for when you have trouble executing on things. 1:19:54 - Support: How to Stay on The Path. 1:52:49 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 170 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. It is time for some Q&A. Okay. It has been a while. Yeah. It's been a while for sure.

So let's get after it. Yeah. From the interwebs. Yes, indeed. As it is. Said, okay. First question. Jocco.

I'm taking over leadership of a team of six people. Two, I know. And four, I don't. When you've taken over leadership, did you, one, give a group talk, two, meet with each individual, and three, what did you say? Good question. Yes, obviously, give a group talk. That's affirmative. You get everyone together.

Hey, guys, my name is Bill. I came from this place. I'm here to take over. Now, there's some judgment calls that you have to make because, you know, I'm not. you're going to introduce yourself, but if you're taking over a well-functioning team, then guess what? You're not going in to revamp everything immediately

because everything's going fine. So, hey, I'm happy to be working with you guys, looking forward to it. I know you guys have a great reputation. Glad to be a part of the team. Awesome. If you have any questions, let me know. I'm here.

That's easy. If you're taking over a team that's not working well, like there's problems, and that's why somebody got fired and that's why you're coming in there, you might need to address some of those things. Hey, listen, I know things have been a lot.

off track. I'm going to look at what's going on. I'm going to take input from you guys. We probably need to make some changes. We're going to do it together as a team. That's where we're moving from here. We need to get back to where we're supposed to be. Boom, something like that. And again, there's going to be people on that team that have been busting their ass and working really hard. And if you go in there and just disparage everyone, you're going to start off on the wrong foot. So, yeah, keep it pretty broad when you meet the whole group. Hey, this is who I am. This is where I came from. This is what I'm looking forward to, all that stuff. And then yes, do you meet with people individually? Absolutely. You go around, you meet with them, and what do you talk to

them about? You talk to them about them. You talk to them about them. You want to know about them. You want to know who they are. You want to know what their family situation is, what their interests are, what's going on, how they feel about the transitions that have been taking place. A little bit of that stuff. It's not about you. It's about them. So go, yes, and talk to everyone. Take notes. Maybe not right in front of them. So you look like a nerd. But, you know, afterwards you go, hey, Bill has three kids. His wife also works at the company.

He's interested in soccer and basketball. Whatever, you just take those notes. You know, it's actually good before you take some, it's an over-a-situation. If you already familiarize yourself with this, you look at maybe the HR website at your company, has a picture of everyone. So you kind of know who they are. It gives you less stuff to remember. there's that make good first impression don't go in there looking like an idiot don't go in there thinking that oh I just I'm the boss man so everyone has to bow down and and bow down to my

superiority no they're actually mad at you the thing is they're mad at you so I remember one time I was taking over a small element and one of my friends was a part of the element And I went in like 20 guys. I went in, hey, and I walked in, but I just had a notebook with like five things I wanted to talk to them about. And as soon as I walked in, I opened up my notebook and he said something like, you brought a notebook, you're always squared away. That's why you're putting in charge. That's why you're putting in charge. So like, just a little impression of, hey, man, I take this stuff seriously.

And I would say overall, your main goal, when you're meeting your team, when you're meeting the. individuals on your team is you are looking to build relationships with the people on the team. That's what your goal is because when you build these relationships, that's what's going to make your team stronger, et cetera. Yeah. Remember the time when you were on Joe Rogan the first time when he was like, hey, you're the only ones who's ever brought a notepad? Yep.

And you're like, just trying to be prepared. Just trying to be prepared. That was good. In case there's anything, you know, topic comes up. You don't want it to slip your mind. Yeah. Yeah. that's funny and I'm trying to imagine being a worker and you know when you get a new

manager you know or whatever new boss you know they come in yeah if they're at like having an individual meeting I would I would dig it and then but if they're like taking notes I'd be like wait why are you taking notes like well how are you going to use this you know against me later or something like that's what it feels like hey I go hey man how's it going how long you've been here for oh I've been here for four years oh cool do you you you married yeah yeah I got two kids oh that's awesome that's awesome how long you've been married for oh six years Like that you're getting to know the person if I go in there and I go how long you've been here and you're like six years and I write yeah write it down And then I say what what what what what what is your primary function here at the team you know what I mean?

If you just jump right into that oh yeah we're not looking to build a relationship We're just looking to find out how I can use you yeah. I mean you said it like I mean you said it like oh like how long you've been married you said it like man doesn't matter how you say you could say it the most nice Polite way ever and when you write it down it's kind of like bro like are you gonna take all this information and sort of do some sort of evaluation for me, you know, kind of it's what it feels like. It does feel like that. That's why I specifically said when you're having a personal conversation with a person

that you're meeting for the first time, you're not scratching it into a notepad. Yeah. Now, that being said, if the guy says, you know what? I've noticed some things around here that need changing. You go, really? Hold on a second. Let me break out my notebook here and take notes on what you're about to say. Yeah, that's advanced.

You know, it's like when you get a micromanager. You're working for a micromanager? bring a notebook. They see you writing stuff down. They think they're like happy. Yeah. Trick anyone. Yeah.

Well, because when you're writing down their stuff, yeah, it flips the script. It's like, it makes it like, oh yeah, yeah, he's taking notes.

It's important, what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, kind of thing like he's going to evaluate like my opinion. Oh, yeah, that's good. Roll in there with a notebook.

It's like the doctor. You know, when you go to the doctor and he's asking you, oh yeah, like all the stuff you see him writing down, you know, in your chart or whatever. Even though a doctor's situation is good

because you want him to go evaluate it later, whatever you don't give you a cure. But same deal, man. Same deal. Be careful with those notes. For my sake. Check. Check.

Echo's not prepared for you to take notes on them. Not with my personal stuff. How long you've been married? Oh, nine years. Okay, nine years. Got it. Well, bra. Anyway, you understand.

Next question. Next question. I'm a sergeant. And I want to know how to deal with my men in a way without punishment, but still make them better for next time. Okay. Here's something for you. Punishment is actually the last straw in how you deal with people that you're in charge of.

In fact, I will tell you this. If I ever had to punish someone, when I had to administer punishment on my troops, I always felt that I had somewhere I had done something wrong. Right? Like even if a guy got in trouble out in town, got drunk, got in a fight, did something stupid. I would still look at that and think to myself, how could I have allowed this guy to not realize what a disaster it is, how much trouble he's going to get in, what kind of international incident he's going to cause,

how that's going to hurt us in the team strategically, all those things. How did I let that happen? So doling out punishment is not optimum. I mean, you've pretty much made a mistake if you have to punish people. Because if you're being a good leader, people are doing what you want them to do.

There's no reason for punishment. So that's what you should not be looking to punish and just like I just said you should be looking to build Relationships you should be looking to show people a better way of doing things A way that's more smooth and more efficient it doesn't disrupt what the team efforts are You got to explain to people why they're doing what they're doing this is all stuff right this is you Explain why if things are done a certain way Explain how it impacts the team explain how it impacts them that's also important um you've got to have people rehearse and in retrain because now

now I'm talking about how do you get people to do the right thing right without punishing them so we're trying to avoid punishment how do we avoid punishment by training how do we avoid punishment by people understanding what they're doing why they're doing what they're doing how do we avoid punishment by setting goals that make sense that are small enough for them to get to and then have fun with the goals and get in the game yourself and show them that you're not perfect and that is what you need to do you need to make every effort to make people understand why they're doing what they're doing how they fit into the big picture and when they figure all that stuff out and they're on board you shouldn't have to punish people you shouldn't have to punish people

So I know it's Yeah, that's what it is If you're a sergeant and you want to deal with your man Way without punishment, well, think of what the mistakes you're making When you're when your when your when your fire team or your your your platoon does something wrong Why did they make that mistake? Did they make the mistake because they wanted to? No, they made it because you were a bad leader at that point in time.

What could you do better? Hey guys. What didn't you understand? Oh, you guys. messed up this training operation I'm gonna restrict your weekend duty I'm gonna restrict you to weekend duty meaning you can't go out in town what good did I just do right are they gonna try harder now right yeah but if you say hey listen guys we did a bad job I know I must have made a mistake in trying to explain this information to

you all because we didn't do what we were supposed to do let's look let's dissect this thing as a matter of fact let's spend Friday night dissecting this thing I'm buying pizza and we'll sit around the the sand table and we'll figure out what what we did wrong that's not punishment that has the opposite effect of punishment that has hey I'm bringing everyone in because I want to win I want us all to win so that's what you got to do don't punishment should be punishment should be I mean do you have to punish people sometimes yes yes you do when they're blatant out of line when they do something that's blatantly wrong.

Yeah, you got to drop the hammer on them. You got to set the example sometimes. Hey, you're not going to get away with this. Sometimes that happened in the teams. You know, somebody would do something stupid. And the command would just drop the hammer. And everyone goes, man, that guy got a DUI and they, you know, docked him. They busted him in rank and they pulled him out of his platoon.

And they're sending him to a fleet billet for two years. Oh, my God. That might make someone think, right? Maybe I won't step behind the wheel. Yeah, yeah. So sometimes you do have to punish if people do something stupid, especially after they've been warned a couple times. Yeah.

But I always look, if I have to deliver punishment onto my team, I made a mistake somewhere. I don't like it. Yeah. Don't they say that like reward and encouragement is like way more powerful than punishment? Definitely way more powerful, way more powerful for sure. Seems like it. I've almost never punished people.

Yeah Yeah But the reason is Why didn't I punish people? Because people were doing Weren't doing stupid things They were doing what they were supposed to be doing They were doing

Yeah I mean I probably I don't even know if I probably I think I had like a one or two Captain's mask where I had to bring somebody in And drop the hammer on them And it's because they did dumb stuff Yeah

It's like, yeah You know what? You can't do that I didn't think of it I'm sorry But you can't do that Yeah Percussions

Yeah. Next question. Jocko. In the discipline equals freedom field manual, the section fear reads, how do you overcome fear of failure? Step. Go. But a previous entry reads, I don't want you to overcome fear of failure. I want you to be afraid of failure.

Mind elaborating. Yeah. Clearly there's a dichotomy here. I know it's my favorite word, apparently, according to Dean, Yes, I agree. There is a dichotomy here because fear is something good that you should take advantage of. So it's kind of good to be afraid because it keeps you on age. Edge, it keeps you from slacking.

It keeps you preparing as much as you possibly can and all that stuff is good. But at the same time, yes, if you go too far to the other than the spectrum, fear gets a hold of you and you can't overcome it. So you freeze or you cower or you run away and none of those are good reactions. So what I obviously failed to communicate well in the book, Discipline equals freedom field manual is the dichotomy between these spectrum, the spectrum of fear that you can have. So if you have no fear whatsoever, no fear. Well, guess what? You get cocky. You can get arrogant.

If you have too much fear, you can't even get out of the gate. You just freeze. You hesitate. So like all dichotomies, you got to balance those two. And the way you balance those two is to try and do things that make you feel fear, right? Try and do things that make you feel fear. So that way you get used to it, you can overcome it, you can deal with it, you can utilize it. If you have a fighter, you ever hear UFC fighters that are like, I'm afraid every time I get in the ring.

Great. Pretty much everybody. Yeah, pretty much everybody. I'm afraid because you're afraid you're going to get knocked out. You're afraid this, you're afraid that. afraid I'm going to lose in front of all my family and friends and all that. So everyone's afraid. So what does that fear do?

It drives you to train harder. Drives you to prepare. Drives you to keep your hands up and your chin down when you're in the cage. So, yeah, there's a healthy level of fear. It can also get the best of you. So keep it balanced. Yeah, we talked about this. And I think Sam Harris talked about it first.

As far as the first I heard it, made a point not to go too deep into it. But where, you know, like this, okay, fear, how do you overcome fear? Step, go, right? It's essentially like take action, be brave in the face of fear. Yeah. But if there's no fear, it's kind of like, you're not really being brave. You're not, you know, kind of thing. Well, that's true too.

Yeah. So consider that notion. Yeah. So you say, yeah, I want you to be afraid of failure. Oh, yeah, be afraid of failure. But you still got to step. You still got to go. You still got to be brave, you know, kind of thing.

So they do actually kind of compliment each other, really. Unless you think like oh yeah overcome fear meaning like I'm not scared of it anymore It's literally not figure it's always fear but it's more it's less about the fear being You know reduced to zero it's more about being brave Training yourself to be brave embrace with fear. Yeah embrace the fear and the and so to continue with that thought In order to embrace the fear what do you do you step? You go into it. So there you go there's your answer Cool next question I was wondering when does Stan

ending up for the right thing take precedence over avoiding conflict this is something that leaders have to deal with all the time so clearly out of the gate things that are immoral unethical or illegal if you participate you're guilty that's the way it is now things that are a matter of opinion that's where you might have to play the long game like maybe you don't want to do something a certain way and if you but if you think oh well I think the Jiu-Jitsu class warm-ups should be doing these exercises. And Echo thinks it should be those exercises.

So echo these things, we should do it this way. No, we should do it this way. You dig in. I dig in. Now we end up saying, well, I'm not going to teach the class. You know, you end up in these situations. Well, what's the big deal? What's, you know, what I'd rather do?

I'd rather play the long game. I'd rather say, hey, man, can you explain why you do those exercises? Oh, here's another exercise cool one that I learned. Isn't this good for this technique? Oh, you know how you like when I do this move? This actually helps me do it even though it's just a warm up move. Oh, that's cool. We build a little relationship.

You get to understand me. I get to understand you. Boom. And you say, hey, I'm going to incorporate that into our warm up. So we're going to warm up here. Boom. Like that there you go. Now, I understand that that's the right thing, right?

Because in my mind, in my mind, I'm thinking, hey, these students need to know this escape. It's the right thing to do. So I do that. So you have to weigh it out. Yeah. What am I doing to my relationship in this situation? If I go along with this, like if you ask me to do nine things that are pretty menial and you're my boss and I said, yep, cool, got it boss, no problem. And you asked me to

do something else that's me. Yep, cool, got it, boss, no problem. Then you asked me to do something else, me, cool, got it, boss, no problem. Then you asked me to do something that's downright, stupid and dangerous. And I go, hey, boss, I need to talk about this. I'm not sure. Can you explain to me why we're doing it this way? Because there's a possibility that someone could really get hurt. You go, oh, well, you've done, in your mind, you're thinking you've done these 10 things for me. You've done nine things from me. You've done seven things. from you did them well you didn't question me and now all of a sudden you have a question you must have a legitimate question that's what we're hoping for that's why we're trying to build

relationships now all that being said yes we're playing the long game there are times and this is a really sketchy area to enter into there are times where something that is happening is immoral unethical or illegal and you might actually have to kind of go along with it I tried to think of a good example of that and I thought of one. Oscar Schindler from Schindler's list. What did this guy do? Right? This guy was a Nazi. He was a Nazi.

They were exterminating Jews. And instead of him standing up and saying, this is wrong to exterminate Jews, I protest. How long would he have lived if he had done that? 30 seconds, right? Oh, you don't think Jews should die cold. We're killing you. That was that.

How many people did he save? Zero. In fact, he cost, he went negative one. Yeah, negative. What did he do? He played the game. He befriended the Nazi leadership. He bought them gifts.

He bribed them. He bought him gifts. He built relationships with him. He ended up being able to move his factory and all this other stuff to save a bunch of Jewish people. And he, even though he knew, like, he would see them executing people. He would see them executing people. He would see them executing Jews. And he knew it was wrong.

He thought it was wrong. He felt it was wrong. And if he would have stood up and said, hey, what you're doing is wrong, then he wouldn't have been able to save anyone. He would have been killed himself. So even in that situation, it's not a guarantee that you need to stand up to do the ethical thing because perhaps there's a chance you can do. do the more ethical thing by playing the game, building relationships.

Who knows? Who knows? Maybe if that war went on, maybe he would have said, oh, you know what? Maybe he would have risen to a position where he, you know, maybe if the Germans would have won. And he could have said, hey, you know what? The Jewish people are making good workers here. I'm going to continue to use them or whatever.

You know, maybe he builds up a whole new, you never know. But when you get rid of your influence, when you lose your influence because you stand up, it might not be the best move. and the thing that you have to wait for this you have to weigh with this is you are participating and actually you know they say Oscar Schindler felt completely guilty

because he did participate and he was a part of of what was happening he did his best to stop as much as he could but he wished he would have stopped more and you know at some point maybe you see a little six year old girl getting shot and you think you know what I should

screw it I should stand in front of that bullet and take that bullet for that little girl, you know? That's the kind of guilt that he felt. So there are times where you really have to weigh this out. And also I'll tell you, I mean, even in things that aren't this big ethical dilemma, head-on conflict is generally not the best way to solve problems. Most of the time, it's much smarter to maneuver,

and it's much smarter to flank, and it's much smarter to come from another angle, and it's much smarter to build allegiance and alliance with people. So you can have influence over them, so you can move them in the right direction. Yeah, so almost like, actually straight up, where doing the right thing and avoiding conflict is kind of like they're not that, like, opposite, you know?

Where doing their, avoiding, you should, and I'm totally just interpreting this, trying to anyway. avoiding conflict, you should always be essentially trying to avoid conflict. As far as, maybe that always. That's not always. Yes, yes. But generally speaking, we do a better job.

The outcome is better when we avoid conflict. Now, of course, anyone listening to this thinks, oh, you take that to the extreme. This is someone that never stands up for anything. Yeah. You know, and that's bad. That's also bad from a leadership perspective. If your team is looking at you and they think, God, Jocco never sticks up for us. He never gives the boss any push back.

So we're just at the whim of this tyrannical boss. And Jocco is no buffer to it. That's what they see. So you can't just be a pushover. But at the same time, if you go to your troops and you say, hey, listen, guys, here's what's going on. The boss has got a lot of ideas right now. Some of them are good. Some of them not so good.

But guess what? What I'm doing right now and the reason that we're pushing hard to carry out what he's trying to get us to do is to the best of our ability. The reason we're doing that is because I'm actually trying to build some trust with him so that he will listen to me. Right now he's not really listening to me. He knows I don't have much experience, but I'm trying to build a relationship so he can listen to me

so we can actually do this in what I think is going to be a smarter way. Can you guys help me build this relationship by kicking ass for the next three projects that we've got so I can build up some clout and come back to him and get the tools or the people, whatever it is that we need. Yeah. Yeah, you always have this real finesse sort of way of saying stuff like you. It's fun where I guess. Well, you were saying, and I think you were wrong, actually.

You were saying that standing up and doing the right thing is the same thing as avoiding conflict. Yeah. No, I didn't mean it like that. I meant that they're not necessarily always opposite, you know, like doing the right thing and avoiding conflict. Got it. Like there's just some wishy-washy kind of room in the wiggle room in there a lot of times. And when I say avoiding, you should always be, quote unquote, avoiding conflict. I meant, of course, not always, but I meant more like, even if I'm going to confront someone or something about like something that's wrong, I still should be while I do that, I should be avoiding like conflict.

For sure. Do it in a finesse sort of way to actually just keep everything, you know, rolling forward, maybe just nudging in a different direction kind of thing. But I actually, now that I'm sort of reading this again, I understand what he's asking. You know, it's like, is there a time where it's like, hey, there's going to be conflict? is there a time where it's worth the conflict and where is that point? And the point that I always give is if you're telling me, hey, Jocko, go do the mission this way and I'm like, you know what, I'm not doing it. And you go, okay, fine, you're fired.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now you put someone, some yes man in my place and then that yes man gets everyone killed because it was a stupid, stupid plan. Did I really help? Or should I have said, hey, boss, I'm really going to recommend we do it a different way. Here's some different options. And then finally you say, no, Jocker, you're doing it my way. And guess what?

Even then I can go out and mitigate in the field. Even then I can say, you know what? And the classic example of that is in Band of Brothers. When Dick Winners, an awesome leader, they send a recon mission across the river one night. Someone dies. They come back. The war is over. It's all but over.

And the next night they wanted to do another reconnaissance mission. And Dick Winners is like, sir, I'm not sure that's a great idea. He's like, do it. He goes, okay, Roger that. The guys go down. They drink a couple bottles of wine in the bottle of. of a they don't do the mission he mitigated the risk if he would have stood up and you know that's that's a great example of where he avoided conflict he stayed in the game he wasn't he

said yes yes sir got it we got it and then he did disobeyed sure he put his he put his rank at risk and probably could have gotten in some trouble but he knew it was the right thing to do yeah that was like the best sort of way to do yeah man and again you um you're always thinking of like the long game versus the short game you know where it's like man you can keep that in perspective these things become a little bit more clear you know they always do yes sir all right next question jaco I recently interviewed for a team lead job but wasn't selected because I don't have leadership experience how can I lead when I'm not in charge well you're in charge of something you're certainly in charge of something you're in

charge of some piece of gear you're in charge of some task you're in charge of maybe a couple people here or there, but even if you're not, you're in charge of something. So whatever you're in charge of, take charge of it. Take charge of whatever your task is. You take charge of it. You own it. You do it to perfection. Then once you've got that completely dialed, then you know what? You reach out and you see who else you can help. You help with other tasks. You look for work. If you look for work, you're going to find it. You're going to find it. You're going to find it. You're going to start taking things from other people. Now what you have to be careful of is that you don't step on toes right because just about everyone to think about this just about everyone is offended by

someone that wants to be in charge hey all let me let me let me let me take charge of this here right there makes people cringe to take lead on this you know what hey listen up guys right if you're that guy then everyone goes hmm now there's a key point to this this is beautiful this is beautiful so let's say we're in a platoon there's something going on um in a mid grade position and I realized like I want to be a leader right now if I just go in and guys hey guys let me run this next mission People like do what do you know what are you talking about you don't know anything Okay and they and they're kind of dug in against me by the way at that point Yeah if I give it enough I let things escalate a little bit

What I would usually do is I would I would I would let things escalate to a point To where when I took charge people were waiting for it and they were happy that I took charge Then that even I was, even when I was tasking a commander, like if you're tasking a commander, okay, so I got Laif and Stoner working for me, I'm tasking a commander, we're out on an operation. Something starts going wrong, right? Let's say Laf's doing a building clearance with his platoon. Something starts going wrong. I jumped down there and say, all right, guys, push over that way, start clearing that hallway. How does Laf feel? Yeah, kind of, yeah, phased. He feels like I jumped down

and micromanaged his platoon and why are you doing this? Everything was going fine. So I don't want to do that. First of all, I want him to work. out of course so what let's say same things happening things are going a little bit bad there's starting to be a little bit of confusion they're starting to be escalated voices they're starting people be you know hey wait wait no don't go there you can hear it it's really obvious when things are going on I might let that escalate a little bit let it get to a point where Leif knows he doesn't have control this anymore now I come down and go hey everyone lock it up you four hold

on that hallway you two start clearing that back room everyone else get to the rooftop and hold security you know what everyone thinks including Leif They go, thank God that just happened. Right. Now, and that can happen from anywhere in the chain of command. I happen to be given an example of when I was the tasking commander, but I would do the same thing when I was an E5, which is, oh, things are going a little bit sideways. No one wants to hear the guy that as soon as the opportunity, as soon as there's any void of leadership, you're just like jumping in there like, okay, guys, Captain America to the rescue, right? You don't want to do that.

You want to let that void. I'll tell you what happens. If there's a little tiny void that you try and jump into, guess what you're going to do? You're going to bump into everyone else that's in that void. It has to mean actual void of leadership. Once that actual void of leadership opens up and it's big enough, you jump in there. And because you've detached, because you are detached because you're watching it happen, you jump in there and you have so much confidence in what you're saying.

You have so much understanding of the situation. You look like a genius and everyone's happy that you just did that. And by the way, as soon as that problem gets solved, you step back out. The leadership void is closed up by someone else and you're good to go. And next time, people will not be surprised at all when something goes wrong and you step in and you solve the problem. So that's what you should do. Yes, you want to be in charge. Yes, you should look for work, but you can't step on toes.

Don't jump in every chance you get like Captain America. I'm going to save the day. No, you're not. Let there be a real problem. assess it from the outside. And like I said, you got to be careful about being Captain America. You got to be careful about being,

I'm ready to stand up every moment. And that's a problem, you know. It's a problem when someone, when someone's goal, this is going to sound weird, when someone's goal is to be a leader, right. Like my goal is to be a leader.

Like if that's what they're thinking, that's going to offend people. It's going to offend people. Because, And I'll tell you why it offends people. It's rightfully so. You know why it offends people? Because what is it about?

It's about me. I want to be a leader. I, me, me want to lead. That's what it's about. And everyone recognize that. If what you really want to do is you want the team to win and you realize that sometimes you're going to be in a supporting role and sometimes there might be a situation where you need to lead almost hesitantly, you know what?

Leadership needs to happen. I'll go make it happen because the team needs it to win. I'm here for the team. So don't be the person about yourself. Right. We don't like that person. I don't even like that person. As much as I love people that want to step up and lead, I don't want that person that's like looking for themselves.

Yeah. Sometimes you got to be following. I want someone that's like, hey, oh, cool. I got your back. Don't worry about it. I'm over here. I'm over here part of the train. I'm over here clearing rooms.

Oh, wait a second. There's a leadership void. And now there's an actual problem going on. Oh, and then that person suddenly steps up and solves a problem and then goes right back down to their level. Awesome. That's the person you want, and that's the person you want to be. Yeah, you know, like nowadays, well, I hear it a lot nowadays where if you add value, you just want to add value.

So it's essentially what you're doing. If you're not in a least situation, it's like, boom, I'm going to add value. So one, okay, I'm going to start with my own role, you know, that's where I'm going to add the most value, my own role. But if there's little voids in whatever capacity that needs some value added, I'm going to add that value. But you can't just be piling on the value where it's not needed. Don't pour additional value into non-value-needing areas.

Exactly. That's problematic. Too much value. It's true. All right, next question. Hi, Jocco. When you're trying to take ownership of a mistake made by a fellow team member, what do you do if the team leader asked for a step-by-step, step-by-step breakdown of events? I've said it was our mistake and not made excuses.

But a step-by-step breakdown would expose the fact that he alone was responsible for that. the error. Interesting. So he basically, you think that's interesting? It is. Wait, wait. So he's basically saying,

okay, it's our mistake, right? I don't want to individualize this guy. Right. Or so, you know, make him stand out or whatever. It's our mistake and we're going to fix it

kind of thing. And he's like, no, I want the step by step, but the step by step step's going to reveal. That is the solo. That was actually Bill's fault.

And now what I do? I tried so hard to take ownership, but here's the problem. It was actually Bill that was all jacked. It's actually not my fault. So it's actually not my fault is what we're saying. It's the truth, right? You get that, right?

Yeah, I guess. Because check it out. Who's responsible? When you're taking ownership of something, when you're taking extreme ownership of something, whose fault is it? Yeah, mine. Yeah. Does that include when someone else on your team makes a mistake?

Yes. But how can that be? Because, man, it's your team. So let me ask you these questions. Here's what I'd be thinking. Um, the teammate was in error. Why? Why did the teammate make a mistake?

Why didn't the teammate have backup? Why didn't the rest of the members of the team? Why didn't I actually go through with him and make sure that he knew how to do that procedure properly? He's part of my team. We're responsible for this taking place. I knew he was a little bit shaky and I didn't do anything to fix it. That's why it's our fault. It's not our fault because we say, oh, it's our fault.

but it's really bill. Yeah. That's not what we're talking about. The point is, the point is to actually own it. So if my coworker fails, I'm literally saying to myself, what mistake did I make that my coworker dropped the ball? What mistake did I make? My co-worker dropped the ball.

What mistake did I make? Did I not show it to him? Did I not ask him if he knew how to do it? Did I not ask him if he needed some help? Did I not confirm that he knew the procedures correctly? All those things are my fault. Did I not do a good job of identifying that Bill was a little bit slow on the uptake? And therefore he needed a little extra preparation for this.

And now think about this. What can I do? Once I make the mistakes, okay, we're going to do to fix them. Now think about this from a leadership perspective. You go down and you say, hey, you guys, you guys messed up this thing. Why did it happen? Now think about the team where everyone goes, well, you know, it's our fault. Mostly Bill.

right and I'll tell you when I when when when I look at a platoon and Bill made a mistake I don't look at Bill a good leader doesn't just look at Bill a good leadership looks at everyone on the team especially certainly the leadership but I think this guy's talking about from a peer but it doesn't matter from a peer perspective if there's a mistake that happens we are truly responsible yeah and then from a leadership perspective when I go down to the team and I say, hey, guys, what happened? And they said, well, it was our fault, but this is what Bill did. I go, okay, so you just drop in dime on Bill.

I'm not going to say that, but I'm thinking myself, okay. So it's all Bill's fault. Cool. I'll tell you what. Whereas if you say, hey, listen, boss, this is what happened. Here's the procedures we went. I don't think we did a good job of briefing Bill because here's what Bill did. He did step three instead of step four.

My fault, we went through it twice, but I should have gone through it a couple more times and confirmed he knew what was going on. It's not going to happen again. We got this. which guy you want to work for? Which guy do you, which team do you want? You want the team where people are taking ownership of the problem,

not blaming Bill. Ownership is not just saying we own it. Ownership is actually owning it. And that's what makes it so powerful. What makes it so powerful is if you actually own it, then you actually look at Bill beforehand and you go, look, in our team, do we have any weaknesses? Yeah, we do.

We got Bill. Bill doesn't Bill can't get this part of the procedure done right here's what we're going to do We're going to put Bill into this other position that's an easier part of the procedure We're to make sure he knows how to do that meanwhile we're taking Mike and Mike is going to go down here and he nails this procedure And he's going to spend by the way an extra 15 minutes a day during lunch he's going to get bills trained up so Bill can eventually That's the kind of thing you do on a team Yeah, you made it pretty clear which is Which is kind of it because it's not that easy to understand or it wasn't for me

anyway. I mean, put it this way. It was, it was very valuable when I didn't understand this about extreme ownership. I said this before too, by the way. So there's, there's essentially two parts of it that make it extreme ownership. Actually, there's three. There's the dichotomy, but aside from the deaconomy, this is what it is. You take responsibility and then you say what you're going to do to fix the problem. And then actually, there's a third part, which is you implement the solution. Yes, yes, okay. You identify it. You own the problem. You identify a solution. for the problem and then you implement the solution. Yes.

That's what you do. Yeah. So a lot of times, especially in the beginning, like I would just, as far as me just kind of casually trying to understand it, I would focus so much on taking responsibility. You know, it was my fault, you know, kind of thing. It's like, well, the taking responsibility, I mean, is arguably more important than saying that it's your fault kind of thing. It's essentially you're taking responsibility of the solution as well.

Yes. No, if not, because in a way, in a lot of practical cases, you don't even have to identify whose fault it is if you take responsibility of the solution. Like if I'm, okay, here. So if there's a football team, right? It's like the epitome of team, not the epitome, but a good example of teamwork. Never mind the SEAL teams or whatever, but we'll go with it. Well, football is pretty, it'll be more simple because it's, so let's say, okay, we got a pass or whatever.

And boom, the play, the place starts and a guy gets through the front line. let's say the guard missed a block obvious right he missed it maybe he looked one way and it was supposed to look this way he was supposed to not pull and he tried to pull or something

maybe he just made a mistake he just made a mistake he's not in company he just made a mistake whose fault is it guard's fault okay but if the quarterback's going to take extreme ownership he's going to be like hey no party hey this happened you know next time we

I'm going to remind him hey on this play that play you know this red 46 curve twist or whatever you don't pull and he will probably be like oh man I know I know don't scold him just feel like hey you don't pull

hey no problem but we're just not going to do that anymore and then next time I call that play I'll be like you're good right I'm gonna check with him I didn't check with him that first time he made a mistake I'm a check with him he won't make that mistake again

kind of like he when we were navigating when we were driving navigating me you know it's kind of one of those things the quarterback took responsibility for solving the problem more so then he was like okay lutz

that was my fault I made a big deal out of it being his fault, even though in his head it is. You know, it's like, okay, this is my fault. I should, you know, I should make sure things are clear kind of thing. Like the weather too. You know, your weather example. Yeah.

Well, what bothers me the most about this question is I feel like, I feel like I don't do a good job of explaining this. Because what bums me out is someone who, whoever wrote this question. And it's a good question. I get the question. I get scared that the person that's listening to the question goes, no, Jocko doesn't quite get it. He doesn't quite get the fact that there was this one guy who was part of the team who made this mistake and no one, you know, we just, we can't hold his hand every time. Like, that's, it's not my fault.

It's not our team's fault when Bill drop completely drops the ball. That's not my fault. It's not anyone on the team's fault. And my point is, is exactly what you are saying, Echo. Yes, it is. And if you look at it, when Bill, makes the mistake himself he's alone in a room and he's supposed to you know he's supposed to put part a on top of part B and bolt him together that's his part of the

job he's alone in a room doing that and he doesn't do it right that's a hundred percent his fault the answer is no actually who's in charge of training him who's in charge of checking who who not even in charge of who's responsible We are a team. That means we work together. That means we confirm that we know how to do our individual parts of the job. That means we check and say, hey, Bill, are you good? Hey, Bill, let me check your first three that you do to make sure you understand what's happening.

We do this together as a team. And it makes me feel like a failure that people have a hard time understanding this. And I know it can be a stretch. It can be a stretch. And, you know, I give all those examples. Hey, the machine gunner shoots in the wrong direction. Whose fault is that? It's not the machine.

The machine gunner literally pointed the machine gun in the wrong direction, pulled the trigger and shot in the wrong direction. Whose fault is it? It's the squad leaders. It's the fire team leaders. It's the platoon leaders because they didn't make sure that he understood his field of fire. Make sure he understood how to operate his weapon. And by the way, there's a chance that the reason that Bill screwed this up and Bill is

incapable of putting these parts together correctly. And if that is the situation, guess what? It is a responsibility of the team. to either get him trained up to where he can do it or to tell the leadership that this guy cannot, he's incapable of doing the job, and therefore he needs to not be here. That's what ownership is.

That's what extreme ownership is. I think I know what it is. What makes it confusing or sometimes kind of slippery like to grasp, you know? Because it depends on who you ask. So a lot of times, the thing is when it's the machine gunners fault, the thing is if I'm not even,

even a human being. I'm just a disembodied brain. Okay. It's the machine gunner's fault and the leader's fault and that it's everyone's fault. If I'm, you know, but if you ask an individual person because you ask a machine gunner, hey, okay, Jockley, you're the machine gunner. You shot in the wrong direction. And I ask you whose fault is that?

What are you going to say? My leader's fault. Well, it's your fault. Well, let me tell you right now. There are plenty of people and definitely plenty of machine gunners that when they shoot that that weapon in the wrong direction, you know what they say? I didn't get a clear brief on what the field of fired were. No one, I didn't see the, the markers for what the range limits were.

I didn't know where the other blue forces were. No one told me. So they're looking at it like it actually isn't their fault. Now you get some good machine. And actually, guess what? When you have a guy that's a machine gunner that says, well, it wasn't my fault. It was my leader's fault. You know what the leader says?

You know what the leader says? Well, good leader or bad leader. The leader in this team. The leader in this team, you know what he says? No, it was the machine gunner's fault. Yeah. That's right. And now guess who's fault it was?

It was no one's fault. Yeah. The machine gunner thinks is the boss's fault. The boss thinks it was machine gunner's fault. Now who's going to fix the problem? The answer is no one. No one. Yeah.

When you get a good team, the machine gunner goes, my fault. I should have paid better attention. The leader says my fault. And now you have everyone taking ownership of the problems. Yes. And that's the way it's supposed to be. But that's my point. And that's why it makes it so slippery.

Never mind your disembodied brain that's making decisions over here. I'm trying to make a point, though. I'm saying this is why it's hard for. people to understand that's why sometimes and I'm I'm with them I'm like I was there it's kind of like it's kind of like sure I'm taking extreme ownership you know the typical I'm taking extreme ownership but you know at the end of the day we all know it's false and bills for fault but the reason that it is so hard because if I ask okay we have three guys one of those guys is a machine gunner the other guy's a leader the other guy's just another team member he's you know he's the

sniper or something if I say hey this machine got a shot in the wrong direction individual meetings they all take extreme ownership all of them are down they're in the game all of them I asked you machine gunner whose fault is that what's you going to say my fault okay next guy who's fault is it fire team leader my fault I shouldn't tell them and the squad leader my fault I should have told them right yes so it the re now go back to the disembodied brain it's kind of like wait wait wait wait wait so it's like he did it it's hard to grasp like that one guy it is his fault thing it's not just his fault apparently because everyone said it's their fault, right?

So it was obviously his fault, but wait, it's everyone's fault kind of thing? So when you're the guy and you're saying, okay, his fault, that little thing creeps in your brain that's like, yeah, wait, it is his fault. Yeah. You know, and it can't just get to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're wrong.

And I need to do a better job of explaining that to people because I see questions like this on a fairly regular basis, which is, but hey, really. You know, there's like, hey, I get ownership, but really. Yeah. That's what I mean. It's the but really that you need to check yourself on. Because the reality is you're responsible. Yeah. You.

Wait, but if I'm responsible, what about the machine? He just said he's responsible machine gunner. You're responsible. No, but the machine gunner said he's responsible. See what I'm saying, though? I think that's the feeling that that jams you let that creep in. Yeah. Then that's going to be a problem.

Yeah. Probably you ever seen office space? Yes. Yes, I have seen that. So really, when you think about, okay, what's the big thing? I don't have the movie rememorize, though. Yes, you, okay, let me, let me remind you. Okay, so in the beginning, they were like, hey, Peter,

we're putting cover sheets on the TPS reports from now on. Or we've been doing that. You forgot to do that, right? So first Lumberg comes, his boss, first Lumberg comes. He's like, yeah, you know, saying, hey, let me read. He didn't do it in a dick way, annoying for sure. But he said, hey, this is basically a reminder. Did you get that memo?

We're putting cover sheets on the TPS reports. He's like, hey, I just forgot. It was the one time thing, no problem. He's like, cool. So if you just do that, do that, that'd be cool. And he's like, cool, no problem. So I'll even give you another copy of that memo. He almost like overdid it.

Not almost. He did overdo it. So he left. And then the other boss, boom, who's like one level down, he came. Same deal. Hey, we're putting, did you get that memo? TPS reports, cover sheets now, blah, blah, blah. He's like, I got the memo.

I forgot one time thing. He's like, yeah, I'm just, all those bosses were doing, making sure the problem got solved. Right, doing everything in their power. Even his other, his friends were like, hey, what's up? I heard you're having problems with your TPS. So they were just taking extreme ownership, taking ownership of the problem, trying to solve it. But we give them crap about it.

Who do we give a movie? In a movie somewhere? Yeah, yeah, because. They're trying to make it funny, dude. I know, I know. But that's kind of ironic. It's a comedy. But yeah, I know, but it's ironic, right?

It is. You know. So I'm not even mad at Lumberg for that. I'm just saying. Next question. Hi, Jocco, I have a question for you. I know you're a very busy guy. How do you find time to read so many books?

I have many that I want to read, but I have trouble having enough time. Any advice on how to set aside time to do so? Sure. All right, lay it on me. Make time. What are you doing all day? The clock's sick and what are you doing all day? Are you watching TV?

Are you surfing the internet? Are you watching YouTube videos? That's my question. What are you doing before you go to sleep at night? Are you looking at Twitter? Are you looking at Instagram posts? Instagram videos? Tell me they're not like an addiction.

You get the Instagram video. Every one of them is funny. They're 38 seconds long. They're one minute long. Get to see people hurt themselves. Get to see people do dumb things. Make you feel good about yourself. I didn't do that dumb thing.

Someone else did. I can laugh at them. How long are you going to look at those videos for when you could be reading? So there you go. Stop wasting a bunch of time. And then what about audiobooks? What are you doing when you're mowing the lawn? What are you doing when you're trimming the hedges?

What are you doing when you're pulling weeds? What are you doing when you're cleaning the dishes? Get some audiobooks. Get some audiobooks. What are you doing first thing in the morning? What are you doing? Are you waking up, checking your email, sitting around, waiting, you know, wasting a bunch of time? Are you getting up early enough that you could just get up, get out of bed, go and read for 30 minutes?

30 minutes. That's what you have to do. You have to make time. There's plenty of time to read. there's plenty of time to read. You probably don't want to read as badly as you're, as you think. If you wanted to read that bad, you'd make time. You make time to breathe somehow.

Yeah, well, if you can make time to breathe, you can make time to read. Yeah, I would say eat would be a better one. Because like, yeah, eat, I think. Because read, you can read while you're doing other things sometimes, especially with just kind of like as a, as a, so I'm reading. I always have to be reading a book to read a book for the podcast, right? I had only read the first maybe 10 books that we read

that we did on the podcast. We've done 100 or something now. Probably more than that. I'd only read like 10 of them. Maybe a few more, but I'd read them so long ago. Maybe I'd read 30, but I'd read some of them so long ago that just I had to reread them. And so then you say to yourself, okay.

So when I read, you know when I read all the time? Go to bed, reading, wake up, reading. going in an airplane What do people do in an airplane? You watch a movie, I know you sleep They do all this stuff I sleep sometimes in an airplane But if I'm not sleeping, guess what I'm doing?

Reading, prepping for a podcast I can attest it out Yeah What do you think is the Like the biggest ones that people are You know that you know The biggest activities Time sucks?

Yeah, that they could just stop And it just For me I think the biggest time sucks are YouTube I think Instagram I think those two are really What's the word

Stimulating to the brain And you actually get this weird like Well I actually like I'm going to learn a little something from this right here I'm going to take something away from this I'm going to veg out I'm going to escape from My world right now It's like escapism

Right yeah And and they They actually have algorithms that are that know what you will click on they actually know that about you they mapped your little brain and know that if they put up a video that has if they put up a thumbnail of a video and it's got a heavy machine gun in it they they know they got a good chance I'm gonna click on it right and then they give it a catchphrase title Right?

No. They give it a catchphrase title. Yeah. ISIS gets massacred. Okay, I got to watch that. Gotta do it. Yeah. Oh, click.

Oh, yeah. 50 Cal versus Taliban. Oh, cool. Click. 50 Cal versus anything. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So they know what you're going to click on. Yeah. And that's, that's so. And what do you get out of it? You watch it for 20 minutes. Short game. Yeah.

You get nothing out of it. You get a book. You read, you learn. You write something. That's what you do. Yeah. And actually the YouTube thing is, especially if that's one of your things, it's worse than, it's, it's not just YouTube who's trying to get you to watch the video.

It's the video makers themselves. So YouTube has the algorithm. Oh, they got it all kind of sorted out there. And now the video makers, they make titles like 50 Cal versus X, Y, Z, and they'll have a bunch of those too. And guess what? 50 Cal versus, you can fill in the blank. You're probably going to watch that video. Doesn't matter.

Ultimate motivation, speech. Ever. Yes. They give you that too. Oh, yeah. So and so destroys whatever. Destroyes reporter in interview. Yeah, exactly right.

So once you... Literally owned. What makes that funny is because those are actual titles. Yeah, those are actual titles. So basically, right when you log on to YouTube, once YouTube pops up on your screen, bro, everyone on that screen is all sucking your attention. Literally, that's their job, sucking your attention. So yeah, man, that's a big.

Right, Instagram. So here's one that it really hit me really hard. The gram. The gram. And I like Instagram. It's like good. But if you're like trying to read, you know, if you want to read more or whatever, consider like even like, let's say we stop recording this for a second.

We're going to bust out our phones. We're going to maybe check an email. Maybe we got a text or whatever. And the probability of Instagram coming up on there, we're going to, you know, open it. But the probability of us opening Instagram is pretty significant. It's pretty high. And you're going to scroll through there or whatever. Even if you scroll for three minutes, right?

You scroll through there. Maybe you looked at, I don't know, 15, 20 people's posts, read what they had to say. Bro, if you have a, what do you call it, like, Kindle or something, right, you do that same thing. It's like, couldn't end, like. You're saying you could read. Yeah, read instead. So if you had a camera, like once you said, like, imagine you're being videotaped. Like, what if you were being videotaped all day?

And all it did was calculate every time you opened up Instagram or Facebook or Twitter and or YouTube, all those put together. Every time you opened up, and you had that scenario in one average day. Then you take all that time and replace it with, you opened your Kindle to read or bust out a book. You know, you bring books or whatever with you. And that's how to. Instead of doing that, you did the book. Bray, you know how much reading you do? Brat, you'd read so much.

A lot of reading. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, those are the time sucks, man. Your phone. It's so available, you know? Yeah. But, bro, you can read on your phone too. that's a big one

TV too you watch TV not really I watched one show now and actually two Hawaii 5O and that's it sometimes Shark Tank that's it man

100% it's weird how often is a Hawaii 5O on once a week and it goes in seasons so you got how long is this season I don't know

13 episodes I guess I don't know I have no no but unless I have watched one TV show recently it's called Billy Oh, well, you know

You're on now There's a little scenario unfolding on On billions, so All right, well, you know, and actually it's a good show. Actually, it's, yeah. And keep in mind, it's not like I've never seen any other show ever and never will. It's not that.

I'm just saying, you know how people, they like, they watch TV routinely. And actually, I will separate the fact that nowadays you can watch TV in a different way, right? Yeah, that's true. It's not like at 8 o'clock on a Thursday night. You got to sit there and watch. 30 minute show with the 30 minutes

worth of commercials in it. Yeah. Right? No, you can, you're, you're on a flight somewhere. You've read, you've got to take it easy on your eyes a little bit if you start reading too much.

You've read for a long time, okay, you're going to stare out the window for a little while, listen to a part of a podcast or something. Then you're like, okay, my brain is like barely functioning. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to watch an episode of billions.

Yeah. Or ballers. You ever seen ballers? I have not. I don't know the difference. Well, I do know the difference. I watched that for a little. little bit but you know like people have a routine like tonight you know every night for 30 minutes

they watch TV with their kids or whatever it's like that doesn't really happen anymore yeah next question really sad how much time you can waste these days with the distractions and the people trying to get that time from you yeah your discipline like when you when you first started saying disciplining or when I first started hearing it from you that was like one of the things that popped into my head like as being really obvious like if you are disciplined with your time you'll have a lot of free time like a lot a lot of free time way more than you would think anyway because you know even when I'm like real busy you know if I can accurately remember my day I can remember like just like five minutes here 15 minutes there like that I did something that was a

waste of time and if you add up all those little minutes you have probably hours probably hours for to do whatever. Yeah. Do something progressive, you know. Productive. Productive. Progressive. Progressive. Progressive. Progressive. Progressive.

Valuable. Valuable. All those things. Check. All right. Next question. Would you, would your extreme ownership philosophy have changed or lost confidence if you had been relieved of command when taking ownership of friendly fire incident? You described in your first book.

The book, Extreme Ownership, by the way. Yes. Just To be perfectly clear about this I wasn't taking ownership of the situation So that I could keep my job It wasn't a Political maneuver

To set myself up to look good I was taking ownership of the situation Because I was the leader Of the situation that took place I was the guy responsible For what was happening I was taking ownership because

That was the correct thing the correct thing is something bad it happened and I was in charge of it and yes I could have been fired and if I would have been fired I would have accepted it and I wouldn't have done anything different so again this is sort of similar to a couple questions ago like that's extreme ownership is not about avoiding trouble it's not about avoiding trouble you don't say well I own it and then you don't get in trouble no you actually could get fired you actually could get fired and that's why that's why that's why that idea of preemptive ownership I talked about that at one of the musters if if in

the back of your mind if in the back of my mind I think you know what if the platoon makes a mistake I can just blame it on them I'll be good well now I'm not really that worried about their plan because I got that little out if I need I'm not worried about if the guys understand the rules of engagement because I got that a little out if I need it I'm not that worried about deconfliction because I got that little out if they screwed up So I have an out for myself and so I don't really put 100% effort into the planning and of the of what we're doing. If I have preemptive ownership, which is, hey, no matter what happens out here, it's my fault.

Guess what? Hey, guys, do you understand the ROEs? Let me talk to you about them again. Hey, hey, Leif, do you guys understand where the, where the lines of limits of advance are? So you know, where you get, does all your guys understand. Hey, do we see, do we have it marked out clearly? Okay, great. Hey, do you know, like dig in.

And when you dig in on stuff, then you have less of a chance of something going wrong. But when something does go wrong and you take ownership of it, you take ownership of it, not to avoid trouble, but to face trouble. That's what you have to do. So my, my idea hasn't changed. In fact, if I would have blamed someone else and then kept my job and someone else gotten fired, I would have had a real problem with that. I could not have lived with myself

Maintaining that position knowing that I had sacrificed Someone below me in the chain of command for my own good. That doesn't sit with me man. I wouldn't have been able to do that I wouldn't have been able to do that and that's why when I was trying to figure out who to blame it on because I was because I'm looking at this big problem because there's a lot of bad things and I'm thinking myself okay, who's fault was this and I couldn't figure out why I didn't feel comfortable saying it was this guy or was that guy. It'd be like this guy and the previous one guy. Well, it's Bill's fault. I don't feel comfortable saying that, especially when I'm in charge. And I don't feel comfortable when I'm a peer either.

If I'm, if my peer, we're part of a team and something goes wrong, I don't feel comfortable saying it was the other guy. Who does that? Who feels good about that? Right? Don't be that person. And not only that, when you're, when you see people actually. that way everybody can identify that that's a bad thing to do but they do it anyways because they're ego so keep it in check yeah next question whether

directly or indirectly I know Jocko follows this principle the way you do anything is the way you do everything this is an interim this question I I had to pull out because what you're gonna see it's very I think it's a question maybe you might be even more suited to answer than me. But go ahead, proceed. Interesting. Now, let's say you're sitting on the couch and you want to switch the light on. The switch is to your right and you know there's a 95% chance that you can reach it from

where you're sitting without having to leave the couch. What do you do? Do you take the chance to reach it or to reach for it in vain and then get up, walk to the switch and turn it on? Or do you get up right away and make the extra effort and get it done in the most of the most efficient manner regardless of if there was potentially an easier way. I get you. I think we know where you're saying. I know I'd love to give some big profound answer about this, but here's the deal. I would accurately assess the distance to the light switch, right?

Oh, accurately. Accurately assess it. And I'd figure out the best way to turn it on, and then I'd turn it on. That's what I'd do. I mean, if I got to get up out of bed, I'd get up, get to get out of bed. Or I'd pull, pull, we on the couch? Is that that the situation. Oh, and I need the light on. So, yeah, or I'd get the light on my phone out and see what I got to see with the light. Oh, use that light.

Because I'm thinking out of the box over on my side. Well, that's what I'm doing. What you do this. As far as the thing, the way you do anything is the way you do everything. That's partly true. But at the same time, guess what? You've got to prioritize and execute. And there are some things that are not as important as other things.

My famous example is that my gym floor in my home gym is not clean. There's chalk on it. There's some sweat stains. I don't go in there three times a week with a mop and swab it and get all the chalk out and power wash it. That's what it would take. Maybe two times a week if I power washed it, pull all the stuff out of the garage, power wash the mats, pull them back in there, set the garage back up. That's what it would take to keep the mats clean. I don't care if those mats are clean or not.

Doesn't matter me, right? I have to prioritize there's much, much, much more important things than whether my mats in my garage gym are clean. Doesn't matter. Jiu-Jitsu mats are different, right? J-J-J-T-T mats got to be clean. That's why we got people to clean those mats after classes. That's a priority.

The ones at my house that just me don't matter. That doesn't mean that I'm slacking in other. areas. Right? There's a minimum standard in certain things. Like there's, and even my home gym mats, I have a vacuum and I hit him with the vacuum when I get too much dog hair on them, which actually I do that like every one or two days.

It takes three minutes to just vacuum dog hair. Right. But there's a minimum standard. Hold the line. And as far as doing things the most efficient way, I try and do things the right way. Right? Try and do things the right way. Which generally that coincides with the most efficient way.

Generally. Generally. But here, that's not what he's talking about here. So when you said, and when you said I'm a fit down to the thing, here's a thing, bro, this guy, you don't, we don't have his name, but man, we need to get together and like talk because, this is the kind of stuff that I think about all the time. Not in this obsessive way, but this enters my mind. Man, that's a good question too. So basically he's asking like, okay. And it happens for literally half a second, maybe one whole second.

where like, okay, man, I need the light on. What do I do? Do I, you know, like how he said, do I reach for it? Because that's the easiest way. I don't have to stand up. Use all my leg and back muscles to stand up and walk over that. I just reach for it. But what if I can't reach it? Now I've got to expend all the energy of reaching for it, failing, bring my hand back,

and then doing the standing up thing that I was trying to avoid in the first place. So it's one of those things. So what do I do? Do I just chance it? Or do I just be like, you know, I'm not going to chance anything. I'm just going to expend the extra energy and turn on the light. So what do I do? do right yeah man it's a conundrum same thing with the soy sauce bowls same thing also

here's the here's one you might did you see the meme yes there's there's a couple memes there's a couple memes about you and the soy sauce bowls one of them one of one of them was like a black and white photo did you see that one it was like a black and white photo but it said something it was this black and white photo of of soy sauce bowls oh yeah yeah what did it say I feel like the struggle's real or something like that it's better than the struggle was real yeah And then they had the superhero looking guy that had the two buttons. Yeah, the two buttons.

Anyway, here's one. And here's one that this one's a real problem, small, but a real problem for most people. From most people. Yes, when you're laying in bed at night, you're sleeping and you wake up, you're like, man, I got to take it. I got to use a bathroom. But not too bad. I don't have to use the bathroom bad, just a little bit. So what do I do?

Do I hold it? Power through the discomfort because the discomfort isn't that bad and hopefully I'll fall asleep. because I don't want to get up and wake myself up more and turn on the light and do all this stuff and walk around get the blood flowing and then what if I can't fall asleep as quick or whatever or I'm tired I don't even want to get out of bed you know so what do I do? because if I go use the bathroom oh man I'll be fully relaxed it'll be done it won't keep me up the discomfort won't keep me up but if I can fall back asleep I didn't even have to get out of bed

you see what do you do you're at that and if you really got to use the bathroom it's no issue because it's obvious you know but if you just have to a little bit it's a hard question I cannot believe you're talking about this right now don't even act don't even act I know what do you mean I think that you have this problem

zero seconds I spend zero seconds thinking about that issue Zero. This is no factor whatsoever in my life. So what do you do? You're like, I'm going to go use bathroom. Here's my answer to your question. If I have to go to the bathroom, I go to the bathroom.

What if you kind of have to go to the bathroom, though? There's no, kind of. Yes, there is. Oh, no, no, no. So if your bladder is full, okay, you got to use bathroom. What if your bladder is one third full? Then I don't have to go to the bathroom. Okay, so you have a distinct, like, cut off then in feeling.

So you don't have that gray area that most people. All right. So most of us, we don't have it like that. No. We got to like consider, you know, the same way that this guy. No, no, no, no. Anyway, anyway, I dig it. And man, that's going to be one of those ongoing challenges, I think, you know?

I think the main, and I almost left that whole second half of the question, because the main point of the question was the way you do anything is the way you do everything. Yes, that's true to a point. You should definitely keep, you know, you try and maintain consistent effort and hold the line and everything. But the dichotomy is that if you try and hold the line on everything, every single thing that's not possible. And you'd spend your whole life cleaning up everything around you and fixing things. And what you'd just be,

you'd be wasting time when you have, you need to prioritize and execute. Pick the biggest problems. Pick the biggest things are going to have the most impact on you. And then focus on those things. And don't worry about some other things. Yeah. Shoot, man.

That little conundrum is everywhere. But sometimes they'll be vacuuming. And then, you know how like when you vacuum over, like, I don't know, let's say it's a big piece of lint. You go over the vacuum once, you know? and it doesn't go in.

You go again. It doesn't go in. I could have picked that thing up like three, four seconds ago. So why didn't you? Because I thought I could have, I actually could have got it with a vacuum and I wouldn't have to bend down. You know what I mean? It's like that kind of stuff.

It happens all the time. You take laziness to all new level, dude. It's efficiency, not laziness. But either way, you know what though? This guy, you combined with this guy's question, answered the question with how you do everything. You just establish a protocol. If there's a question, you just do the guaranteed one.

If I see a piece of lint, I mean, I, I, vacuum it. It didn't go up, boom, pick it up. That's it. Maybe you get a double take, right?

Yeah. Because generally you got to go forward and back on a vacuum anyways. You know what I'm saying? You can just rerun that same track. Yeah. Because you know you're going forward, back,

but you're offsetting a little bit. Yeah. And sometimes the back, depending on your brush, depending on the back one, or the back one sometimes is more powerful. Okay.

Because the brush spins a certain way. Interesting. But either way, yeah, good. Either one repeat. Okay, nope.

And then guess what? On the forward stroke, you can go now to your next track and you can bend down, grab the piece of lint. You're good to go. Done, yeah. So, and the point is establish a protocol where it's like, you know what,

I'm not going to waste my time. No. You know, risking it and all this stuff. I'm just going to go for the real deal. Problem solved. Either way. All right. Next question, Jocko.

I'm a firefighter slash EMT. I recently, and recently I went on a call where a patient didn't live. Not unusual by any means. Unfortunately, I deal with loss of life on almost a daily basis. I detach and do my job, always working to get better.

This call, I failed to detach. It hit me hard. When the patient's husband let out chilling screams, as his 30-year-old wife went from alert and talking to dead within minutes. I let myself enter into his shoes at that moment. I got over it quick during my days off and moved on. It's part of the job, and I accept that. But my question is, when does it become inhumane to detach?

Do we sometimes need to let some weakness through to remain grounded when dealing with such major incidents is loss of life? Thank you. Okay, first of all, sympathy and empathy are not weaknesses. They're not weaknesses. In fact, it actually takes strength to be able to deal with these types of situations and these types of emotions. The weak move would actually be to cut those emotions off completely. So, That being said, as you know, obviously there is a dichotomy because you cannot let the emotions overwhelm you. As a matter of fact, if you get overwhelmed by your feelings, then you can't do your job properly, which in its own right is inhumane because now you're not able to treat the patients that you're trying to save because you're getting too emotional about it. So what do you have to do? The answer for the millionth time of a different subject that comes up all times, you've got to find balance. You have to find balance between being emotional enough but not being too emotional.

You have to learn to recognize if you're going too far in one direction or the other. You have to do a self-assessment. You have to look and see and make sure that you see the people you're treating as people. You have to look at them and make sure that you're seeing them as people, that you're not seeing them as a hunk of meat, right? You have to do that. You have to make sure that you're doing that. At the same time, you cannot afford emotionally to go through the pain of loss every time you see someone die. Because that's also going to be a problem.

You can't afford emotionally to do that. You can't go through that pain over and over and over again. So you have to like you said you have to detach normally do a good job with that I've seen guys get wounded I've seen guys get killed I've been around a lot of death and when when it was around me I didn't have time to stop and think about it I had to work to do I had to detach myself and do my job at the same time when it's over and the time was appropriate it's like you've got to connect with what happened and make sure that you are dealing with it appropriately. And, you know, I always thank firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and police and military.

But, you know, paramedics and EMTs, you're only showing up if someone is in a bad way. And I know that's hard physically and it's hard mentally and it's hard emotionally. So find the balance. Keep yourself balanced. make sure you're not going too far in one direction or the other and thanks for doing your job man that's like easy to but sometimes you forget that about EMTs yeah fire for like that's the only time you know where they spring I mean pretty much yeah you know the T's are getting called because someone is in a bad way that's the whole gig that's what they're showing up for it's like man

and you know cups too like with like it's easy to be on the outside when you're going to parks and you know and if your job is like you know I don't know me I press record make or make videos or whatever you know and this is like every day so it kind of forms this kind of vision you know of my world whatever but EMTs and every time you get to call it's just it's just it's just the question is just oh how bad you know that's what it is how bad how bad of a situation is the person I'm about to go contend with what's their situation yeah they They are, they could be everything from a minor situation to they're going to die in front of me.

Again. Again. This new person and their life and their kids and their family. And, you know, Peter Atia talked about some of that becoming a bit jaded. In fact, it's a pretty horrific story. And it's worth listening to that podcast when he was on. And he talked about how he got to a point where some patients he started to look at, like, he'd be mad. at them. Yeah. Mad at them. And that's what you have to avoid is getting to this point.

You got to you got to do your best to stay emotionally detached enough that you can do your job. But at the same time, you can't be looking at other human beings as if they're just a piece of meat. So hard job. I think we got time for one more question. have good ideas but I have trouble executing do you have any tips I have good ideas but I have trouble executing do you have any tips have some good ideas do you you can't execute you want to know what those are those ideas are worth when you don't execute on them you know what those ideas are worth they're worth nothing ideas by themselves have zero value unless they can be brought to life.

And I have known plenty of people with plenty of ideas over the years. Great ideas. Amazing ideas. But very few people can actually turn ideas into action. And those people end up old and bitter and angry because they didn't execute their great ideas. And so here's what you do. You execute.

You actually make things happen. And sometimes I'm going to tell you when you execute your idea, it reveals the fact that your idea isn't all that good. It's not the brilliant idea you thought it was. And some people are actually afraid of that. And that's what stops them. But I'm not afraid. I say, but bring on that failure. Let me learn that my idea is no good.

because even if you learn that your idea is garbage, at least you know not to waste any more time dreaming about it or thinking about it. Go on to your next idea. But don't let these ideas just wander aimlessly around in your head. Get them out. Bring them to life. Put them into the world. Run with them. Get some friends and family or partners. Someone to help you. get some people that are better at execution than you are and give them some ownership give away those ideas it's better to give away those ideas then let them rot inside your head and die and whatever path you take whether you force yourself to execute or you bring people in to help you whatever path you're gonna take do it do

it pour some life into your idea and like I said you've got to remember that there's no guarantee that when you pour life into an idea, there's no guarantee that that idea is going to come to life too. You might pour everything you've gotten to that idea and it can still die and you might have to let it die. You have to let the dream die because some ideas aren't good enough to live. That's just the way it is. But but you know what? At least give it a chance. Don't let that idea die inside your head. No more waiting, no more putting it off or waiting for the right time or the right people or the right alignment of things in the world. No more of that.

No more excuses. Just execution. Just go and make it happen. And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So Echo Charlie while we are over here trying to make things happen. Yeah, man. So we have to go hard. We have to execute.

You got anything that could possibly help us execute? Yeah. Our mission. Sure. What do you got? Well, talk about origin first. This is an outstanding way to execute and maintain the execution. So while we are doing jiu-jitsu and you don't know what kind of ghi to get yet, which would be crazy.

But, you know, hey, people are starting every day. And when you start, you do have that question. Most of the time. What's the maximum age for starting jujitsu? Death. I think it's the day before you die. The day before you die. So that can be 100, whatever.

Yeah. The reason you don't start the day before you die is you don't want to go to your death bed with regret. Because as soon as you even learn a little bit of jiu-jitsu, you'd be like, dang, I wish I would have started that a month ago. Yes. It had a month of solid jiu-jitsu to try and learn what was happening how these people were choking me. Yeah. So yeah, we have people all the time starting jih Tjitsu all ages from Four or five below that yes you should be trained your little kid should be trained jit

but it's more of a playful thing that you do with them because you know the techniques and you start having them escape them out you start to have them arm lock you try to have them put in that rear naked choke you gotta make sure you tell them that The rear naked choke is dangerous and not to do it if you're not around because that is actually a scary thing I used to I used to be a little bit nervous about that when my kids were real little Yeah they know how to rear naked choke you know, oh, maybe my five-year-old daughter slaps a rear-naked choke on my two-year-old son. Right. Yeah.

And decides, you know, to hang on to that thing because he's crying or whatever. So you got to be very careful with that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a simple deal where it's not like a, you know, a knife or something where it's like, hey, this is dangerous. Don't let, you know, it's like, it's a little bit more cut and dry with the rear naked choke. It's kind of like, okay, you have to, you have to deliberately. like apply the choke and execute the joke for it to be dangerous not like a knife where it's like

saying is if you got little tiny kids below the like two three four five yes you teach them basic moves you need to explain to them that the moves are real yeah um and they do work yeah and that's i i always warn the little kids about the once kids are a little bit older they understand because it happens them and they know what's going on yeah so be careful with that part a jiu-jitsu for the little kids, but whether kids are four or whether you're 60 or 70 or 80 years old, go get your jihitsu on. I'm going to need a ghee.

Yep. A ghee and or rash guard. Actually, no, a geese and a rash guard. Check. At least one. Check. So what kind of ghee? Origin geese.

Plenty to choose from. Plenty. Increasing by the, as time goes on, straight up. All made in America and factually the best geese in the world. Yeah. And when you buy an origin gea, you are investing not only in yourself, but you're also investing in this great country as we rebuild manufacturing inside our country, bringing back the old New England factories that they sent overseas.

We're bringing them back. We're actually bringing them back. We are buying equipment back from overseas. We're bringing it back here on ships. Can you imagine that's happening right now? We are doing that. You are doing that. You are making that happen.

Also, we got jeans. Here's the deal. I talked to Pete. Pete Roberts. Sure. Origin. I said, Pete, how many people do you know that do Jiu-Jitsu? And he's like, oh, 100?

I said, how many people do you know that own a pair of jeans? And he said, 200 million? Yeah. I said, we need to make jeans. Everyone wants jeans. Everyone needs jeans. Everyone would want jeans that are not only high quality, but also made in America,

sewn by craftsmen in Maine. So, yeah, we got origin jeans. They're awesome. American denim. American denim. I like it. Cotton, cotton. Cotton, yes.

Yeah. Sown here. Wait, are gowned? Sown and grown. There you go. I'm surprised Pete Roberts hadn't come up with that one yet. Grown and sun. In America, baby.

Boom. There it is. Boom. Also, joggers, speaking of pants, jeans are pants, obviously. Joggers. Don't get into the joggers. You're not allowed to do joggers. But for us who like comfort and functionality,

maybe a twist of style or whatever, there's some joggers on there. Why don't we keep bringing up joggers specifically? Is it because of my experience with the joggers? I think you like the joggers. All right. People like joggers. And you can also get supplements. We have supplements.

We have joint warfare. We have krill oil. We have discipline. We have discipline go. According to J.P. Dinell, when he takes discipline go, he can see people's thoughts. I'm like, he was so fired up. He did an event for us in front. He's like, I was so fired up.

I could see people's thoughts. And I'm like, I like the way that sounds. So discipline go. A little new tropic to get the mind kicking. And then you got discipline for pre-workout. Krel oil, joint warfare, keep the bones. The tendons The joints, the ligaments.

Keep all that stuff. Good to go. Maintained. Uninflamed. So there's inflammation. What's the anti-inflammation? So keep them anti-inflamed. Keep them moving.

Keep them lubricated. Keep them functioning. Very important. And in milk. We got milk. Some people don't even know what milk is. And it's really easy to explain. Mulk is mulk.

No. Happens to have what, 22 grams of pro. Yeah in there clean protein Yes by the way delicious which is different you know and it delicious Yeah very delicious and those I was stuck my friend Kenny the other day he's like oh yeah so like what's so special about this thing And I kind of I got past a detached you know I got past you're gonna emotional a little bit emotional But I was like I started like going into this whole pitch to my friend by the way it was so it turned out to be a pitch but just like how it's all clean and then we use you know monk fruit to sweeten it and it's like doesn't taste like some diet thing whatever

It's like a dessert. At the end of the day, I think you accepted the bitch. The best thing to do if someone wants to know, you mix one up. Yeah. Because as soon as you mix one up, people are like, oh, yeah, I'm ordering it. I'm getting this now. Because how can this be good for you? Yeah.

That's the question. How can this be good for you? Yeah, it tastes like that. It's true. Mint chocolate, peanut butter chocolate. Vanilla gorilla. Darkness. The chocolate darkness.

And then there's, this is what I believe to be kind of epic, Warrior Kid Mulk. Because Warrior Kid Mulk, you can go to your grocery store and you can buy something that will flavor the milk so that your kids will drink milk. But while you're giving the milk, you're also giving them poison.

Right? Is sugar poison or is it not? You can eat enough sugar that you die. Yeah. Right? People do it all the time. They get diabetes. Yeah. So we don't want to give our kids poison. We want to give them.

power. How do we do it? We got Warrior Kid Mulk. We got strawberry and chocolate. They taste amazing. They are engineered the best possible food that your kid's going to eat. Think about it. You can say, oh, you want some dessert and they'll get all excited. Here, have a strawberry milk shake. And what do they think? Thank you. Can I have more? And you know what you say? Sure. Of course you can. You can have all you want. Because this is protein and probiotics and vitamins. This is everything you're supposed to be eating as a child to grow up and be strong and a world beater. You. That's how it. All right. Check. Nonetheless. Yes. Okay. Also, if you want to stay on the path and represent at the same time, attire wise, jaco store. It's called jaco store.

So you go to jocco store.com. That's where you can get your t-shirts. More rash guards for the jiu-jitsu. And it's good to have more than one rash guard for multiple reasons. One is that if one gets dirty, you don't have to rush to wash it or rush to get it back in the rotation necessarily. There could be a whole decision making process you got to deal with there. Right. It's possible. Yes. Brian, you know what I ran into? And this is so psychological. So I were, you know, whatever. I have a bunch of rash card. So I get injured. I won't wear it anymore. Because I'm like, oh, it made me get injured. You think superstition. Yeah. But his thing, I know that superstition is fake. But you know what I'm super superstitious about being super stupid no no I don't care. Yeah see That shirt didn't hurt you bro I know I know exactly what hurt me that's what makes it even worse Either way whether that's your are you gonna retire the rash guard that you wore today

When we were training no no that no are you sure no because I guess if I yeah see I see what you did there no that not another white rash guard award today was all good it was the problem I had today was psychological and it wasn't really actually you were my problem straight up you were my problem yeah that's the extreme I thought it was funny though

for all my juditsu career you know if I have a good role with someone and I and I you know do good against them a lot of times they say you're really strong right they never say like oh you got good jiu jitsu they never say oh like I liked your guard passing or

hey you got a really good hip movement No, they don't say that. What do they say is, you're strong. That's what they say. Today, I got my first kind of alternate compliment from Echo Charles. You didn't say I was strong. Nope. You said, I psychologically destroyed you.

Yeah. What was it? The whole thing. Okay, so you, and you've been doing this kind of recently where, like, I can't, I don't even have to be breathing hard, but just maybe just a little. you'll like act you'll be like put on this little charade like oh like or like push you or something you'll like oh man like you won't say that but your body will be like oh that push was so hard so you'll do that and i know you're doing obviously because you make it obvious but then what that does to me is like man it's like so you don't really take me seriously right now so it kind of makes not angry but a little

bit like frustrating because i'm over here i'm trying to do a little something against you Sounds like there's something. And yeah, then when you wind up like doing things and then I'll kind of look at you and kind of feel and then you do this real good normal face kind of scenario. And I think that I can do a good normal face too. But on the inside, I don't feel normal face, you know? But all I see is like you're just being whatever, making jokes. It doesn't look like just so you know on the inside on the outside you don't on the inside you don't, on the inside you don't feel normal face. It doesn't look normal on the outside.

It looks pretty evident what's happening. All right. Well, I don't know. Yeah. At the end of the day, it sort of just crept in. And yeah, I didn't like maintain the composure that I think is required to function at a, you know, at a better level than I did today. I put it that way. And the thing is right when the timer goes off when we're done, it like, it's like an avalanche of like reflective.

It's not shame. I always think it's all part of the process, no matter how long. painful the process is did you come in today with with a good positive attitude on the what the outcome was going to be yeah so you were feeling good today yes so and it just to be accurate like i don't we always joke about this but i don't come in thinking like here today's the day i'm gonna get jocco and show or whatever i don't ever really think that are you sure about that positive are you sure about that i don't think of that i know for a fact there's been days where if you've come in you You I can see it in your eyes.

You're thinking, I can do this today. Well, no, well. Right. Yeah. I do think that yes, I can do this. But it's not. And you kind of. Sometimes you bow up out of fear.

You're just trying to convince yourself. You're trying to be like a peacock, right? Sometimes that happens. That's cool. I don't, I don't hold it against you. I just accept it. But sometimes you actually think like today's the big day. And when I see that look, yeah, I think, I think, okay.

Well, it's not about like, okay, I'm going to like beat up jockey. It's not that. It's more that, like, I have a handful of... The thing is, all you need to do is capitalize on one mistake. Yeah. That's all that it is. Yeah. You can just play the numbers game now, you know?

You're good enough at Jiu-Jitsu now. If I make a mistake, you can capitalize on it. You can just, you can just play the odds. I can beat you 100 times and I can beat you 100 times in where I can tap you out. No, we don't even care. It doesn't even, doesn't mean it means anything. You roll the dice one time and you get snake eyes, you get the big win. Yeah.

That's where it's at. Yeah, it'd be a 7 or 11. But yeah, man. Saddam not all good. Yeah, it's like an insurgent situation for sure. Yeah, yeah. You can smash me all you want, but I just get you one time and devastate. Yeah, but it's, and it's normally not like, I'm not necessarily trying to get.

Actually, most of the time, pretty much all the time. I'm not trying to like, the goal is never to tap anyone out today. It's not that. It's like to practice new things that I feel like I'm getting a hold of. Okay. Against certain levels of people. And then so you're not trying to tap me out Well that

Of course I'm but that's not like the goal for the day You know kind of thing It's more like okay I'm gonna put together this like defense And combine with this little thing and whatever And for you it's real specific Because it's like rolling with you isn't like this It's like very specific scenario And which in like includes the psychological part

Yeah And that's why I noticed the psychological devastation That you sort of had today is because After the time the timer went up off we're done, it all came to me like, man, you just got destroyed psychologically so bad that goals that you had for that specific role and for all roles with Jocco today, like literally didn't have anything to do with a role that you just did with Jocker right now because of like your whole mindset, you know, and it was all because of stuff you're doing. And here's kind of the dichotomy

of it. It's like super fun when it happens. But it's like the frustration is like pushing you, you Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then it's like, at the end of it, it's all just one big game, you know? Yeah. But it, there's a legitimate amount of frustration in there for sure. It's funny because I can see that dichotomy in your face. Like, I can tell that you're mad, but I can also tell that it's fun, you know? But you do get frustrated.

Yeah, but it's not frustrated at you. No, sometimes you get legitimately like, like you make noises, like frustration like groans or growls. You know what I mean? Yeah, but it's like at, you know how like. And then you know what else you'll do? Let's go again right now. Right? Like a little kid, like a six-year-old.

I know, but the thing is like for real. And from the outside, I can see how that could see a certain way. You know what I don't like? You know what I don't like is when I tap someone out? Let's say I'm in half guard and I tap someone out with something. And I let go. And then they're like, then they want to keep going like as if that just didn't happen. Oh, from that exact position.

You kind of did that to me today. And I was like, I mean, it's not, it's not like it's a big deal, but I was, I, then I'm like, okay. Because you know, I mean, I did whatever move I did. And then I let go, you tap, and then I let go of it. And then it's like, we'll just keep going. Yeah. And I don't know why. I'm like, well, why would we keep going?

You just, you just submitted. Yeah. And there's other, the other thing is sometimes people, I think you've done this to me like maybe 10 times, no, maybe five times, where. you tap and then like I let go and then you like come at me like you like you like double leg or whatever you like grab and you try you know and that that that's another one I'm like oh okay cool I see where I see how this is going and I think you're doing that out of frustration yeah partially partially out of like you ever understand sometimes you want to learn what just happened right like they put me back in that position yes cool yeah I get that part too and even that

kind of bothers me I guess but I could see you know what though from an offensive standpoint, like from your position and someone's like, oh, can we start from there? It's kind of like, you know, it's like not linear, but you know the path of like from start to finish. That whole path is like a big creative learning battle, fights, wins, losses. It's a whole path. I think that's why it bothers me because I like that whole thing. Yeah, and a completed path. You can't just be like.

Yeah. That whole thing of, because let's face it, it's a. big, there's a lot of things that go on. There's a lot of things that happen from, from we start rolling or you start rolling with someone to someone submits. There's all kinds of things, especially you're starting standing, you've got a take down to contend with, you've got guard passing, you've got guard recovery, you got sweeps, you've got all these things to get to this point where you can actually submit somebody.

Yep. And all of a sudden, we're just going to skip 85% of that battle, which, by the way, from my perspective, all that time, all that battle. is I'm maneuvering the whole time. You know what I mean? Like it's all part of my game. It's all part of me getting that submission. The submission doesn't start when I hit the mat.

The submission, it starts before we shake hands. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, man. So when we skip a big chunk of the battle, I like that whole part of the battle. Yeah. So when we skip it, I just feel like, oh, that's kind of weird. Yeah.

Yeah. You're right. Like we just jumped to the end of the good song that has the guitar solo. Like, no, you got to listen the whole song, man. Yeah. appreciate that thing. You're right, bro.

A good movie, right? Let's just skip to the scene where the battle takes place. Have you ever done that? You just watch the battle scene? It's not as good as when you watch the whole buildup. Right. I want to hear the whole, I want the whole buildup to take place.

Yeah. I just want to watch the battle scene. Yeah, that's actually good. And I'm actually glad that we kind of analyzed it because because it could be looked at. I always looked at it because I've done that. Like I don't always do that. No, you do it. I think you've done it probably five times.

We've rolled thousands of things. times. Yeah. And it's like, okay, can we start from there kind of thing? And I, it's a little bit different. A little bit different is like, hey, can you just wait, put that back on me. Let me see if I could get out. Okay, you got out. Cool. Now we'll start again. Right, right. No, I'm not talking about that. Yeah. I'm talking about what I did. Yeah, today where I was like, I didn't say it, but I just sort of stayed there kind of like, let's kind of take it from here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was me. And, um, and I've done that before really rarely. But I looked at it as shoot, that was like a pro. Like I made a legitimate mistake right there.

Let me like get back in that mindset and continue actually rolling. I think that's part of what bothers me. Yeah, it's not up to me. I think part of what bothers me is I think to myself, oh, you just made this little mistake and it was kind of a fluke. That's what you're implying is like,

oh, this is just a little fluke. You were lucky. That won't happen again. That's like sometimes people get mad when I submit them. Not very, I'd say rarely. And I'm always like, man, is that much of an insult that I just tapped you out?

You know what I mean? Like, I'm not, when somebody taps me out, I'm not mad at them at all. I'm like, dang, nice job. That was awesome. Good job. But yeah, I think people are, me anyway, it's like anytime we'll get, like, anything's out of frustration. It's literally like maybe a 30% frustration, 70% you're just a guy that can take that

kind of abuse, you know, like if you're like, okay, good. You tap me out. And then you turn your back. to reset and yeah I jump on your back or take you down whatever like you can I won't do that normally to somewhere yeah yeah yeah and even when you do it to me it's not like you you haven't ever like jumped and like put a rear naked choke on or something like that yeah you've kind of jumped into a slightly advantageous but normal position for us to be in yeah which is no big deal yeah you have taken my back a couple times yeah but and then even then like bro we've been in this

thing for a long time where it's let's say I got it maybe that might would that even bother you let's say I jump on your back in one of those situations and I got the rear naked joke and I finished it well I would kind of be like well we both know you know like I didn't really catch you I totally did that yeah but um but real quick back to the the path you know like when you when when you want to like you tap a guy out and he wants to start from that same position or whatever if you look at that path that whole path that is so let's this that's a valuable path every path that you create it's like learning and it's this big thing It's fun.

There's little competitiveness in there, whatever. And at the end, you finish each path as like this tree or whatever. It's done. You finish it with your submission when you win or when you lose in training or even in competition. You win or you lose. You can't, like, after you win and complete your masterpiece path of wins and loss, you know, through the whole thing and you're done, that guy just can't step in and be like, no, it's not done. It's just sort of paused on my, like, bro, you can't jump in and dictate that kind of stuff. You lost, brother.

You gotta start all over and try to create something else now. You know? Try a new song. You can't just be. Yeah. But at the same time, if you're looking at like training, rolling as just practice, just training, just, you know, whatever. There's a big difference though. Yeah.

There's a big difference between, hey, we're going to actually practice right now. You're right. And we're going to roll. Yeah, because rolling is understood that is competitive. That's the whole reason it works so good. Yeah. It has to be competitive. So yes, that's why when you tap me out, I do consider it.

no matter how much percentage, whatever, I do consider it you beat me, straight up in practice, in training. You beat me because there's a significant amount of competition right there. So, yeah, you can't be messing with the other guys wins and do that. Yeah. You're right. I can't. I'm never doing that ever again.

If you want to do it, it's fine. I'm just saying it's noted. It's not fine. It's not noted. I don't want to be that guy to do it even. I'm being that guy. Nonetheless, back to representing on Jocco's from Jocco's store, Jock was stuff, shirts and rash guards and hoodies and hoodies.

hats cool stuff you want to represent on the path if you okay so i made the new a new good shirt i think it's on there yeah it's on there it's just it's good it's the it's good literally um says good on it with the font and but it does not have your head on it so it's way more basic cool you know that's the one where like you really got to be in the know you see it in in the wild you're going to be like if you listen you know yeah yeah do you see the dude that got good on his thumbs. I think it was his thumbs. Oh, yeah. G.O. on one and OD on the other.

Yeah, I- tattoo. I dig it. Yeah. In proper font, by the way. It's deep in the game. Yeah. So, yeah, if you want to represent on the path, jocco store.com. If you like something, get something. White tea.

Jocko white tea. Available. Drinking it right now from the can, which it comes in, tasty and good for you. And also the tea bag. You can get that stuff on Amazon. And if you get it, you can deadlift 8,000 pounds, which is awesome. So that's something. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already.

We're just going to leave it at that. If you haven't already, hey, subscribe, if you want. And don't forget about the Warrior Kid podcast. Just released two new Warrior Kid podcast, 22 and 23. Get some questions for Uncle Jake. Here's some stories from Uncle Jake about when he was a kid. Also, you got Warrior Kid soap from Irish Oak. Ranch.com. There's now

Trooper soap. Yep. With the rope. With a rope. So, soap on a rope, yes. Yeah. So Irish OaksRanch.com. Aiden is up there making soap on his farm. And what he wants us all to do is stay clean. Did you tell him and then now he wants us to stay clean? Or are you just sort of, you know, imposing your tagline.

I impose the tagline. All right, man. I dig it either way. Also, you too. If you want to, if you're interested in the video version of this podcast, or you want to just see excerpts or whatever from the podcast, get on YouTube. That's where you get it. And there's also videos that Echo perceives as very legit because he made them.

You're the one who used the words legit. Thanks. Also psychological warfare on iTunes, Google Play, MP3 platforms everywhere. This is a album where I can help you in little moments of weakness, get over that moment of weakness. and get yourself to stay on the path. If you want something visual to help you stay on the path, check out Flipsidecanvas.com.

It's a little company owned by my brother Dakota Meyer. Podcast 115, by the way. Absolutely an epic podcast to hear and listen to and to be a part of with Dakota. And we became good friends after that, and he's got this company, Flipside Canvas.com. And he is making pictures, canvases, posters that are cool.

And we'll help you stay on the path. There's a discipline. He goes, freedom one. There's one that says good on it. If there's anything else you want, let me know on the social media. And Dakota will make it happen. Take it. Also, when you're expanding your home gym, going to on it for your stuff, rings, jump ropes.

Kettle. Bells, primal bells, Star Wars, Kettlebells as well. Anyway, a lot of good stuff on there. You got some immune stuff for your immune system. So a lot of real good stuff on there. Go to on it.com slash jockle. Really good stuff. Also, we got some books.

Mikey and the Dragons. Mikey and the Dragons is about a little kid that's trying to overcome some fear. And he does it by reading a book. The book is called The Dragon Prince. Check it out. Mikey and the Dragons. Also, Way the Warrior Kid.

One, two, and soon to be, three. That's a series of books about a kid that's having kind of normal trouble that kids have, but he's got an uncle, Uncle Jake, who used to be in the dames, and he comes to helps his cousin out. Or his, yeah, his cousin, it's his nephew. He comes and helps his nephew out. So those are called Way the Warrior Kid, Mark's Mission, and Where There's a Will. is book three also discipline equals freedom field manual that's a book that you need or it's a book you can give i'm super stoked when i meet people and they say yep i've given 28 copies of the discipline

equals freedom field manual away to other people in my family other friends that i have why because it will help people get on the path and live a better life that's a powerful thing if you can actually help someone live a better life there's a man on how to live your life. It's called the Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual. It's not a normal book. It's not normal. My publisher, when he was publishing it, he said this book is the biggest risk that he has ever taken in his publishing career.

And he also said, or actually my agent told me once the book came out, the book sold more than any scenario that this, They had predicted for the book. So they do these predictions of like, oh, if it sells this, it sells this, it sells that, it sells this thing, it sells that, it sells the other thing. There's something called 100% sell through rate, which means every single book that got shipped,

it got sold. This does not happen. And then they're back ordered and they had to make more. Now the book is still selling like that. Discipline equals freedom, field manual. Why does it keep selling? Because people read it and they get it for people they know.

So check it out. It is the manual telling you, how to get on the path and stay on the path. The audio version of that book is not on Audible. It's on iTunes. It's on Amazon music. It's on Google Play and other MP3 platforms. Of course, there is extreme ownership.

The first book that I wrote with my brother Lafabin about the combat leadership principles that we learned on the battlefield and how you can apply them to your business and life. And we followed that book up with a book called The Dicotomy of Leadership, which, well, some people are saying it's better than extreme ownership. Read it, judge for yourself, tell us what you think.

I think if you read extreme ownership, when you read dichotomy, a lot of things are going to fall into place. A lot of little things that you didn't quite have it that you wanted it to be. When you read dichotomy, it's going to come into place. Also, we got Aschalon Front, which is our leadership consultancy.

We solve problems through leadership. That's what we do. It's me, Leif Babin, J.P. Denele, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, Mike Sorrelli, Mike Baima, and our latest addition to the team, Master Chief Seal, retired Jason Gardner. Go to Ashlandfront.com if you want us to come work with your company. The muster. We got three musters this year. All musters ever have sold out.

These are going to sell out well. As well, there's May 23rd and 24th in Chicago. September 19th and 20th in Denver, December 4th and 5th in Sydney, Australia. Go to Extreme Ownership.com. If you want to come to these things, just go and register. I had friends, friends that said,

hey, you know, I didn't really sign up. Can you just give me a couple tickets? And I'm like, actually, no, I can't. Because we can't fit any more people in the building. So no. So I can't help. help you if you wait too long register get on it early EF online this is our interactive leadership training if you want to get everyone in your company aligned if you want

everyone in your company to understand the fundamental principles of extreme ownership if you want them to understand the fundamental laws of combat that we used on the battlefield and that we have now taught to scores of businesses if you want to have that training you can go to eF online it's interactive it's you have to make decisions it's choose your own adventure it's tests it's it's briefings it's everything and it's awesome so check out eFonline dot com also eF overwatch where we are connecting proven leaders from the spec ops and combat aviation communities with companies in the civilian sector. Now, here's the thing.

You might think, well, I've got to hire somebody that's experienced in this industry. That's a good thought. I understand where you're coming from. What I recommend you try is instead of hiring a person that has experience in the industry, hire somebody that has experience in something more important. That is leadership. You can teach them and they can learn very quickly, industry that you are bringing them into what you can't teach someone and what you can't

give them is 20 years 25 years 22 years of leadership experience in the most high stakes business there is and that is war so go to eFoverwatch.com if you want to hire someone like that or if you are in that position of your vet and you want to look to get placed into a company that's looking for leadership, EFoverwatch.com. And if you want to spend even more time with Echo Charles

and myself, because for some reason you think 500 hours of podcast isn't enough for you. We are out there. We are lurking on the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram, and on face.

Bookie. Moja. Echo is at Equichael, and I am at Jocko Willink. and thanks to all the people in uniform for your service. That's our military personnel. Also, our police and law enforcement correctional officers, border patrols, all first responders, and tonight especially the firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, who face suffering and death

on a daily basis, and they learn how to handle it. They learn how to stay balanced. They learn how to detach, but not too much. Thanks for all of you for providing us the freedom and security that we enjoy every day. And to everyone else that's listening, you have ideas, you have dreams, and you have vision. And that's cool. That's awesome. But none of that means anything unless you execute.

So execute, move forward, take action. And you know what? Maybe your idea works. Maybe it doesn't. And if it doesn't and try another one. And maybe none of them will ever work. And that's fine because in the end, at a minimum, you know at least you went out there and got after it. So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.

Out.