Jocko Podcast - 183: Remember Your Mission and Remember Your Cause, And Be a "True Believer" With Jack Carr

Episode Date: June 26, 2019

0:00:00 – Opening 0:07:33 – Jack Carr. Navy SEAL, Author. 1:45:30 – Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:56:25 – Support: How to Stay on THE PATH. 2:23:53 – Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 183 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. Not one of the guys on the ground had liked this mission. Now, moving to within a click of their target, they had pushed that distraction from their minds and were solely focused on the deadly challenge before them. Glancing at the GPS attached to the stock of his rifle and scanning the terrain ahead, Lieutenant Commander James Rees called a quick perimeter.

Snipers were already moving up to the high ground as team leaders joined Reese for a last quick update before the final push to the objective. Even with all the technology at their disposal, things could go wrong in a heartbeat. Their enemy was cunning and highly adaptive. After 16 years at war, the Afghan sang, the Americans all have the watches, but we have all the time.

Rang a bit more true than it had in the early days. What do you think, Reese? asked a huge beast of a man looking like a creature from another world with his A-O-R-1 patterned camouflaged body armor and ops core half-shell helmet with nods firmly in place. Reese looked at his most seasoned troop chief. The light green glow of the nods illuminated through the beard on the man's face A slight smile that could not be mistaken for anything other than the confident look of a professional special operations soldier

It's just over the rise Rees replied Predator shows nothing moving those sentries nothing His troop chief nodded all right guys he said to the other four men in the circle let's do it they rose with resolve and moved with the poise of men who are comfortable in chaos moving up the rocky ridge line to get their teams in place before approaching the target to make entry this is too easy you're thinking too much again it's just another mission then why this feeling maybe it's just the headaches

the headaches had plagued Reese for the past several months finally prompting a visit to Balboa Naval Medical Center before this deployment for a series of tests Still no word back from the docks maybe it's nothing But maybe it's something Reese had learned a long time ago that if something didn't look right then it probably wasn't That judgment had kept him and his man alive on many a deployment Everything had lined up a little too easy for this target the Intel the office infill the current state of the objective area and why the pressure from higher

authority to go after this target when was the last time a flag level command injected itself into a tactical planning process something wasn't at an up maybe everything's fine maybe it's the headaches maybe it's a bit of paranoia maybe I'm getting too old for this focus Reese this wasn't the first time that they had approached a target they had suspected was a possible ambush At one point in the war when Intel had pointed to the high possibility of an ambush corroborated by multiple sources both human and technical Reese would have knocked on the door with a thermobaric AT4 or a few 105 rounds from an AC 130 gunship This was the first time that actual tactics had been dictated from higher.

For men who would not be on the ground. Focus on the mission, Reese. One more check with the tactical operation center. A forward-based command also called the talk. And a look at the predator feed. Nothing. Another check with the sniper teams. Nothing moving.

Reese glanced up at the military crest of the hill in front of him. Through his nods, he could see the assault teams set and ready to move. He couldn't see the snipers, which gave him cause for a thoughtful smile. Best in the business. Reese keyed his radio and opened his mouth to give the order to move. Knocked Reese back 10 yards and ripped his helmet from his head as the entire military crest of the hill in front of him erupted in a concussion of violence and death. Teammates, friends, husbands, and fathers

who one moment earlier had represented the best special operations force in the world were gone in less than a second. Somewhere, believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimum food or water in austere conditions day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do.

His ruck weighs what it weighs. His runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. The true believer doesn't care how hard it is. He only knows that he wins or he dies. He doesn't go home. At 1700, he is home. He only knows the cause. Those right there are two excerpts from two books.

The first one, a book called The Terminal List. And the second book, a book called True Believer. And these books are fiction. They are novels. And with the exception of the novel Musashi by Eli, Yoshikawa I have not covered any novels on the podcast But I'm actually not here to talk about those novels the novels these books were written by a seal a seal that I knew And a seal that is here with us tonight to share his experiences in the teams what he learned

How he ended up where he did as a retired seal off officer, a husband, a father, and a writer of fiction. His name is Jack Carr. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me on. It's great to be here. Yeah, man. Good to finally get you out here.

I know we tried to hook this up for a little while. Yep. It's good. And you sent me your latest book. And I said to myself, okay, well, let's just make this happen. Awesome. So, yeah, man. Let's talk a little bit about you.

Well, that's hard. I've never heard that true believer read quite so well. So I used to read that to my guys in the teams and then read your laws of combat. Read those to them. And that one would just kind of set the stage. I thought what the theory, who we're going after here. And then your laws of combat, which, of course, I pass on to everybody ever worked with ever since. Right on.

You probably found a couple of them in the book for those that. that read them. There's a couple. I put them in italics, you know, to give you credit. Check. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, where it all started. Yeah. What year were you born? Yeah, 73. Okay. So you're kind of a young and I'm a, well, what are you? Are you one year old? 71. Okay. Got it. Yeah. No, but a child of the 80s though, you know, those formative years were like 80 to 89. And you grew up in NorCal? NorCal. And my mom was librarian from a very early age. Were you rural areas? or city area?

Rural. Yeah. But not too rural. Small town, I'd say. Small town? Yep. Yeah. So north of San Francisco.

Check. But, well, today is D-Day. So probably appropriately talk about that. My grandfather was killed in World War II. Some very early age was surrounded by the Silk Map. He was an aviator, Marine, flew the Corsair, which was that plane. The goal wings that would fold up. Right about that time, there was the show Black Sheep Squadron on TV.

I went to an air show and met Pappy Boynton. before he passed away, got his book signed. And so I always knew that the military was where I was going. Just earlier on, I didn't know exactly what that was going to be. Did you ever think about trying to be a pilot? You know, fleetingly, I'm sure I did. What about Marine Corps? Fleetingly as a pilot, just to follow in the footsteps of my grandfather.

But then it became very obvious that my skill set lay at a more primal level on the ground. It was just attracted to that for some reason. Probably a lot of, you know, well, in the DNA for sure, but also the influence of popular culture, the books and movies that I read growing up. Those are the guys that I wanted to be like and had backgrounds that I wanted to have one day. But my grandfather didn't make it back from World War II,

so he was killed off Okinawa in 1945 in May, so near the end of the war. But his wings made it back, old pictures of his black and white pictures of his squadron, him by his plane, the silk maps they'd give aviars back then, because if they hit the water with paper, they'd just disintegrate, so we had these silk maps.

So I just grew up with him really as kind of the ideal hero, I guess. Obviously, never met him and neither did my dad because he was born while he was deployed. So grew up with just knowing that the military was my calling, there was never anything else I wanted to do. And then early on I found out what seals were. And your mom was a librarian? Yep. Yep. Yep. Still is to this day. And so were you into reading? Yep. Yeah, I grew up surrounded by books.

And yeah, just always naturally gravitated when I got to be about fifth grade, I'd say, towards the things that the adults are reading at the time. So Tom Clancy, David Morel, Nelson DeMille, A.J. Quinell, J. C.C. Pollack, Mark Olden, these guys in the 80s that had protagonists with CIA backgrounds or CIA backgrounds or Special Forces backgrounds. So not having the internet and not having that many nonfiction books written about seals, that's what I read. And I knew this is where I'm going. And then after that's done, I want to write fiction like these guys. So those are the two things that I wanted to do with my life. were you and you actually found out about the SEAL teams in fifth grade?

Seven. So second grade. Second grade. Yep. You found out about the SEAL teams? Yep. From what? So back then there were four channels back then growing up. So there was ABC, CBS, NBC, and then that one outlier channel that always had some World War II movie on it going all the time. And I was at a remote control back in the late 70s. So Sundays were football days. And I was not interested in football at all. But I was interested in that war movie. It was playing opposite. So at a commercial, my dad would look at his watch. I can still remember it to this day, sitting on the couch, and he said, go. And then I'd have two minutes to run up, change that channel to that outlier channel, and then sit back, watch that movie, and then he'd say, turn it back, back to football two minutes later. So I got to do that, and I just wait through the football parts, and then run up and change it to whatever war movie was playing. So this causes attention deficit disorder without question.

Yeah, I'd be trained for early age. You've got to be incredible patience and imagination. You've got to fill in the blanks during the play. That might be it. That might be it. Yeah, so one of those movies was the Frogmen. And it showed these guys climbing up over the beaches ahead of a conventional force landing and putting explosives on these obstacles.

And I asked my dad, hey, who are these guys? And he said, those are Frogmen. And I said, okay, it's a frog man. He said, ask your mother. So I did. And then we went down to the local library because she would take any excuse to get us to the library and do research, show us that use the Dewey Decimal System, pull out the card things, the whole deal, and did a little research. And there was hardly anything written back then. There was a couple magazines that had mentions of seals,

a couple nonfiction books that had a chapter or a paragraph or two on seals. That was not much at all. But my takeaway was that these guys are touted anyway, as one of the most elite fighting forces in the world. And the training is the toughest ever devised by our modern military. Arguably. That was my takeaway of the same thing. We all know that's all arguable now.

There's all kinds of different harder parts of all different training. I never went to Ranger school. And if I did go eat an MRE, one MRE a day, I would not be a happy camper. Brutal. But, you know, so everyone's got their little challenges. Oh, yeah. I heard the same thing. Exactly.

So they had me. And yeah. And you find out that it's a, so what did you do? Did you start preparing for it physically? Yep. Oh, yeah. Everything I did from that. So I guess I'd do it in early form of CrossFit, I guess, before, before CrossFit was

the thing in high school. So not in the younger years, junior high. I was still playing soccer. Yeah. running around cross country doing a lot sort of. But I do credit cross country in those hills in Northern California was giving me for whatever reason that, no, never quit. I'd see people stopping on the hill.

That would just give me energy. Were you like a pretty good runner? I was okay. Yeah, I was good. But there were some guys that were really, really good. Mine was just, you know, dogged determination, really. So I was pretty good, but not the greatest. And, you know, but I'd love it when I'd see people walking,

especially on the hills. When people from the flatlands would come up to our course and they'd hit that first hill and just walk, would just devastate them and that would just feed off that kind of like a whole week when people would quit and I would feel bad talking about this but I mean it's true some people would say come back no don't quit come back I didn't say one word yeah see you later this is so sally exactly this is what this program is designed to do and so I kind of fed off that I guess I love that especially when the biggest strongest fastest guys for those first three weeks or whatever it was abuds uh quit the first

couple hours what's up with just studs just quitting first couple hours I don't know people said that was gonna happen yeah and uh and it did and studs where i thought to myself wow this guy seems like a complete stud yeah mentally physically yeah just legit and then just quitting yeah right away how is that i don't know but i would look at these guys when i first showed up the buds and like man that guy's huge how and he and he's doing crazy climbing these ropes he's not even losing his legs and like oh my kid look gonna go on those monkey bar things and geez how am i going to make it through if this guy this guy like there's a guy like that here and then he quits i'm like oh I see how this works.

Yeah, you're mentally weak. Exactly. I can do this. So you did running? Yeah, you did cross country. Yep, early on, did that stuff. Soccer, lacrosse in high school. But then I'd ride my bike to school, which was, I don't know how long.

Not at least 10 miles, I guess. So early morning, northern California, cold. And because I was part of training. And then I'd get home. And we had this kind of play set, whatever, from one we were kids. And I'd do, you know, pull up. So holding different, you know, trying to make an obstacle course for myself when I got home. And I would be knocking out like 20 pull-ups at whatever, 13, 14 years old.

And then go have like some pasta or a piece of bread with butter on it for my snack. Yeah. And started training martial arts pretty early too. But I was searching because local taekwondo place, right? And you're doing some kata stuff and you're learning a little bit. And you, even your, how old were you? That would probably be fresh, but 14, let's say. So even as a 14 year old, you're like, well, this seems like it may work, but it also seems like.

What if someone hits me in the face? Yeah. Maybe it won't work. Even as a 13 year old, kind of picked up on that. Yep. Which is, I give you credit. Well. Because them guys can be convincing, you know.

Yeah. I mean, that's how you see these videos of people online that are making people fall down by pointing out of them. and yelling their key eye at them. I know, it's hilarious. People literally fall down and start shaking. It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. But I think I grew up also,

I could talk about the influence of popular culture. So, you know, Rocky movies, I was just, wow, man, that's fighting right there. I want to learn how to do that. How do I learn how to do that in Northern California? Well, there wasn't really a place to go. But that tenacity, you know, like getting up every time you get knocked down. Like, I think those things really wore off. I took that seriously and still do to this day.

What kind of music were you listening to? I didn't really do the music thing till the last few years. Really? It was like quiet. Yep. Yeah. I realized I'm starting to give music less credit than I used to. First, I used to look at, I used to, when I meet people and I talked to him for a little

bit, I'd go, how kind of music did you listen to grown up? Because it would always kind of fill me in about kind of who they were because when we grew up, you only listen to what you kind of. of you didn't get exposed to a bunch of stuff you kind of had to figure it out and go down that channel and so if you listen to heavy metal okay I see you know I see what you were doing or you listen to you know Leonard Skinner okay cool I get where I get I could just kind of know because people wouldn't say because what does everyone say now what do you listen to they say everything because everything's free and they can listen to all this different kinds and it's wide open and that's

what all these kids say nowadays I listen to everything a little bit of everything and so don't offend anymore yeah yeah and so you just weren't even into music. No, not until I got my driver's license and then I kind of, you know, had to because you had other people in the car and they'd bring a cassette tape, a mixed tape and put that thing in and for whatever reason when I grew up, people listened to stuff like 60s 70s. Yeah, yeah, same with me. Well, my dad had a barracuda and the car. Like the sports car thing, muscle car. Three barracuda yellow with, and you're saying it impressed. Yeah. But it was not Because it was my dad being a broke teacher needed a new car and went out and paid whatever

$1,800 for this car that was rusty. But it had an eight track in it. And my dad, I think he had one eight track and it was Hank Williams. Like Hank Williams. So that was it. Yeah, Hank Williams senior. So we listened to a lot of Hank Williams when I was growing up. We had Kenny Rogers.

Yeah, we had the gambler. I'm sorry to hear that. We had the gambler every morning getting dropped off for school. It wasn't an eight track. I think my dad was an early adopter. Oh, he's a big time going. Go crazy with the cassette player. Exactly.

And I remember to this day, every day on the way to school was the gambler. Yeah. All right. So what did your dad do? It was an attorney at that time and then got into real estate later on and then retired early. And so, okay, so you're now at what point did you say, okay, I'm going to go for sure. Like at what point? Was this 10 years old?

Was this 12 years old? Seven years old. All right. Yeah, this is what I'm doing. I'm going. And what made you decide? Anything else significant from high school? You're playing soccer, you're playing lacrosse.

You're running. You're doing pull-ups on the monkey bars, whatever. Trail running, all that sort of thing, just getting ready, thinking about my next steps and knowing that there was going to be a little bit of pause there to go to college first, just in case, because we have to have contingency plans. So you looked and said like, okay, I'm going to go to college. Yeah, yeah. That first.

And I needed to do that because I needed to get stronger, bigger, faster. And I thought I needed to anyway. I don't know if that's the case or not. but probably not but you were just more humble and you were thinking hey I need to be in better shape man I thought there was eight guys on a seal team and uh I was going to be one of those guys and if I was going to be one of those guys I needed to be in the best possible shape and at that time the best possible shape looked like Stallone and looked like Arnold so I did not look like either of those guys so and I still don't I never did but but I thought I need to hit the iron

here I need to get boxing and I did a little bit in high school so so fat go to that martial arts school, the Taekwondo thing. There was an instructor there that kind of knew that this wasn't quite the deal, like a brown belt in Taekwondo. And then for my last, I guess, year and a half of high school, he wanted to start his own thing.

And so I'd go pick him up in my car because he didn't have one. And we'd go to a local park and we box. And it was like jab reverse hook, you know? And the basics. And that was awesome. I loved it. I absolutely loved it.

That wins a lot of money. Yeah, exactly. The one, two, three. Yep. I learned what a take down was, you know, like, because he did some wrestling. Oh, okay. So I got to do a little of that. This guy was an early MMA pioneer.

Exactly. Exactly. Yep. If he told me, he had a car. Yeah. He could have really made something happen. Such a great. And he's still doing it today.

Yeah, Mike Valentine's now. I haven't seen him in years, but he has a place up in Northern California, and he's still still doing it. And as soon as he found out about Jiu-Jitsu, he was doing that. Oh, good for him. He was driving to San Francisco and working out with whoever was the San Francisco guy in the early 90s, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe we're talking about health, Gracie. I don't know. Charles Gracie, maybe. There's a bunch of options up there, yeah. But nobody was really doing that. Nobody was mixing stuff up like that I knew about anyway. And in my little town of whatever, you know, however many people it was.

But then I just kept on that path. Just kept and I thought it was going to be a lifelong path. And but I peaked in about 95. And that was in college? Yeah. So you end up going to college. What did you go to study college for? Well, I wanted, well, I wanted to get out of there as soon as possible.

So I get to the SEAL teams. And so justice. seemed to be, the criminology seemed to be the thing that you could just, hey, that's kind of interesting. And I can get through this thing in four years and get to the teams. And your backup plan would have been some kind of cop or something like that? I guess, but I didn't really waste too much time thinking about a backup plan. I just knew that college having that degree was the backup plan. But I'd figure that out later. It was full on devoted to figuring out how to get to the teams and then being the best shape I could mentally, physically, spiritually before I got there.

When did you go to a recruiter? What year of college? After I finished. Oh, so after you finished college. I thought it was going to be like Forrest Gump. Like you go to the recruiter and there's a bus waiting outside and you walk through and you get on the bus and off you go. I didn't know totally ignorant. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.

I mean, I did research enough to find out that there was something called a dive fairer program. Okay. And my recruiter didn't even know what it was, but I was in the back of a book and I forget the name of the book, a paperback book that talked about all sorts of different special operations. And again, it had like one paragraph on how to get to those places and but the seal, it said, died fairer program so I went in there it was a kind of a scam I did I did that program too total scam like they get you to sign on for six years and they say you get you guaranteed a chance to try out yeah that's all I need that's what I want I want to guarantee to try out that's all I need and then you get to boot camp and

everybody got a chance and when I was there anyway to try out yeah yeah I sign out for six these guys for four and we all get the chance dang it but anyway ended up spending the the 20 years in anyway yeah so you you you What year was it that you actually enlisted in the Navy? 96. 96. So got out of college. And I thought, like I said, I thought I was going to walk on that bus.

And then I'm training and I roll my ankle. And I'm like, oh, man, it's going to be the end. And I can't believe it's like this huge. I thought it was broken. Ended up just being, you know, whatever. Bad sprain. Yeah, nothing. Plus or 20, whatever.

How old are you? It's black and blue. 21. And, yeah, so you think, you're seeing the black and blue ankle. That's huge. And it's like, oh, man, what did I do? I was running that. Why was I was I was I just taking it?

just take I should just relaxed not gotten hurt and then so it's on crutches for a couple months and and then got back after it and got in the pool how long was it from the time you enlisted until the time you shipped out uh gosh you know there's all those things you're supposed to do ahead of time when you're on what do they call it when you're supposed to be going to classes yeah yeah i didn't do any of that mess i think yeah i didn't do any of that stuff though because it was encouraged but somewhere i found out it was not mandatory and i was like okay good because i don't want to you know, do whatever, these 10 pushups with these people. I need to be actually training.

Was it a month, though? No, it was, it was months. Yeah, it wasn't years. No, it was like five months. Like five months or something. Yeah, that's just like a little heads up to people. Like you think, what, like what you thought, which is what I thought, hey, once I sign up, I'm just going to get on a bus and that's cool.

I'm good. Yep. And really, you got to go survive for another five months or six months as you're waiting to go because they have certain billets allowed and all this stuff. So it's kind of a pain. Yep. And you got to do the medical stuff, the dental stuff, take the, Asbab and all that sort of thing to get ready.

So those, I think a couple trips over to the main recruiting station to do all those sorts of things, get everything the paperwork in line, and then off you go. So, and then I was in, now they have all the people that are going to be in some sort of naval special warfare or something altogether. It's more squared away now. Yeah, I think so. They go through like they go to Chicago, I think, for eight weeks to get ready for buds. So you showed up to buds. Were you ready for buds? As I always as ready as one could possibly be

With all that training and all that thought And then I knew hey there's no way I'm quitting Because all my friends growing up knew that I wanted to do this since I was seven And so there's no way I'm quitting I'm going to die I can't go home yeah and tell them why I didn't make it You know what's weird is people do that right there and they still quit Yeah Which boggles my mind

I I The quitting thing is hard for me to comprehend And when I hear about people doing it Like people like that you know There was a guy that killed himself recently and he was that guy and he had told

everyone I'm gonna be a seal and he had trained for it and he prepared for it and he looked like a stud he looked like a beast of a kid and he played lacrosse and he was varsity this and captain of that I mean and then he got two buds and for whatever reason he quit and then he killed himself

and you just think man like whatever they're telling you in buds don't quit That's it. That's it. Just don't quit. It's pretty easy.

Yeah. Just do not quit. And I know they play psychological games on people of saying, you know, they'll say, you don't belong here and all this kind of stuff. I don't even remember if they said that to me. I didn't care what they said to me. It wasn't even penetrating, you know, anything in my brain. But, but, you know, that's what they do. They'll say, oh, you don't belong here.

We don't want you on the team. And somebody that's sensitive to that, it can get through to them. Sure. And make them start. leaving that the instructors actually the instructors are going to leave and go order a pizza. They don't they're not actually thinking about that, you know, but they take some kid and they quit and you know what? Good. Like you said, like good. If someone has that, if someone is going to quit, please quit during buds. Yeah. For sure. Did you guys watch a full metal jacket? I mean,

there's all these movies that they show instructors on what it's like and we're going to yell at you. People scream at you. It's going to be a big game. Did you have any trouble with anything about So I swam before I got there and I'd wake up super early meet the master swim program at five in the morning Because I knew swimming was my weak point I mean I swam had no problem swimming but I wasn't a Competitive swimmer you were so much more prepared for buds than me I'm just like even the fact that you analyzed like what your strengths and weaknesses were I was just super dumb I was just like that's another way to go and it worked out yeah I was young too which is beneficial you know it's beneficial you know it's beneficial just

to be young because you're just going to adapt. Right. I mean, your brain isn't even completely developed until you're, what, 24? Something like that. So I'm 18, 19 years old. I was just full, full adaptation to whatever they're telling me. That's what you have to do in life in general. But I distinctly remember going to the pool.

So I'm rehabbing my ankle at this point. And I'm going to the pool now. And it's outdoors and it's frost. Pre-buds? Yeah. So there's like not snow, but that frost, layer of frost on the pool deck. So once you got in, it was actually kind of warm but you still have to walk across that pool deck and jump in with these people that are

way older but way faster I was definitely the slowest person in this master's swim program because these people had you know swim competitively and now you're 40 and which was old at the time 42 years old and they're swimming at 5 in the morning but so I did that so I was prepared for the water and I grew up in the water essentially scuba diving at age nine so I was comfortable in the water which helped out once again you are so much more prepare for months. I was like, you know, well, I mean, I knew I was I could swim and I surfed as a kid and that helped but I definitely wasn't scuba diving. Yeah, well, I was free diving for avaloney up north. Um, so that's been with all those green. Now I would,

I don't know if I do that now. It's like a great white breeding ground up there. Yeah, for sure. But abalone was amazing. I loved that we camp out up there and just have a great time. But, but even though I prepared like that, the swims were hard and that first swim because it's that underwater recovery stroke in 1996. They didn't teach you. Now they teach you how to do this thing. Yeah. Now they get in the water. Here's, your little basics here's how you do it bring your head up whatever um so i'm like what stroke is this none of the books talked about this let me try to do it we get this in the master's program yeah it's not in the master swim program um and i was third to last i remember getting out of that

first swim where they pair everybody up and whatever they call it the two weeks before you class up whatever that thing is called um and i was like man i'm third to and i can staggering out of the water like i put out on this thing and i'm like wow what's anyway they pair me up with this really slow guy. And I think he quit right away. So then they pair up to somebody else who was faster. So I'm barely making the swims in first phase. And then one of the guys in my class was a water polo player from like USC or something like that. And he's like, hey, do we want me to teach you how to do this stroke? I'm like, yeah, it'd be great. And so we went out behind the barracks thing and went out in the ocean. And he just showed me how to do it. And I went from being third to last to the next swim.

I was third. There you go. That was awesome. And I was never third again. I was like fifth. or six, whatever. But from going from third to last, I distinctly remember, to then coming out third after learning the stroke. I was like, I got this. It's different to swimming with fins, too. And the way they teach you to do it is a little bit different, whatever. But now they prepare.

Now you're prepared going in physically. Like that eight weeks they spend in Chicago, they learn the strokes. They learn how to lift the logs and not hurt themselves and how to use the boats. There's instructions on how to lift the logs. I'm pretty sure. Oh, wow. How to clown the ropes, mental toughness, classes, all that stuff. But you know what happened, of course.

Once those guys showed up and they were expecting a lot more seals to come through now because they needed more in 2003, 5, 4, 5, 6. We need more seals. So let's do this program. And now we just got the fitter quitters. And so same essentially. That's the crazy thing. The crazy thing is the attrition rate doesn't change.

Exactly. Fitter quitters. Fitter quitters. I like that. Because it doesn't matter how many pull-ups you can do. I mean, it does matter. And people say, is it mental or physical? It's definitely both.

If you can't do, if you can't climb a rope, you're not making it through. It doesn't matter how bad you want to climb a rope. If you haven't put it in the work, you're not gonna be able to climb a rope. But yeah, you can get some fitter quitters. Exactly. I always do that any average high school athlete physically can make it through both.

Totally agree. It's, uh, but it's the, obviously the metal part there that comes in. And you get guys that are in amazing shape, guys that were Olympic athletes or whatever it is. And they quit right away. And I think a lot of that, and like the guy that killed himself, maybe, maybe he hadn't, you know, faced adversity.

Yeah. In the, uh, in the, the, the, the ways that you need to to figure out how to actually over comment and how to get knocked down and keep moving forward. And you're going to get hurt. You're going to play hurt. And a lot of these guys aren't used to that. They're being treated in a way where if they're hurt, they have someone's right there. Yeah.

They're making sure that they're okay and they're going to rehab and all that stuff. It's not, you know, they're like Lamborghinis. They're going to the shop a lot. There's no one that really crushes buds. I don't think so. Just like, oh, yeah, everything was easy because there would be some really good athletes. And I did have some stud athletes. And my honor man was a guy named Keith Camira who was just a beast.

He just fast at everything and strong. He was just a beast, you know. And so I would say, I guess there are a few guys that crush buds. But most people, they're going to have some, they're going to pick apart some weak points in you. Yep. And that's what you want. I wanted to be tested. That was the whole, that was one of the main draws.

It's like, I want to see if I can do this. Did you make it through first time every time? No. So I had, after Hell Week, my, just legs weren't working, whatever stress fractures, whatever, whatever it was. So they yanked me off the next swim Because I was just, I don't know Sinking probably And said you're going to medical

Of course you're like, no, I'm not going to medical Never Exactly, never So we will not take me alive Exactly, exactly I mean I remember them pulling me out onto the boat And be like, you are going to medical now And I was like, dang it

So I went in there But it worked for me, whatever they did Like some people stayed there at that time Like you could have a guy there for like a year Just kind of hiding out But for me it worked It just, they just needed a little rest And then classed up with the next class

The next class. Yeah. What was your attitude when you got rolled? Was it like the end of your life? Were you like, oh my God? Or were you like, okay, cool. I'm gonna, because I guess there's so many people get rolled back. Yeah.

Yeah. I was a little bummed because I, you're friends with all these guys. They're going on to dive phase and you're like, oh, you're watching them go on to dive phase. And you're like, fuck. But then a lot of them get rolled back for pool comp. And then you got half your class back again. So that was great.

And pool comp was my favorite like that and drownproofing because that's the only time you get to get physical with an instructor. The other time, like, you're just there. You're getting, you're getting yelled at. You're being told you're worthless, you know, whatever. But this is the time where it's mono-e-mono. It's like you against them. And, you know, it's a little bit physical.

So I love pool comp. Past first time I was comfortable in the water. But then the drown-proofing also, that's where you really get physical. They have the different types of bodies that you have to save. You mean life-saving. Life-saving. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Life-saving.

So they have the guy that's just there, you know, just like dead weight. And then the one that's fighting you. And that's the one I liked. That was awesome. And they drag you to the bottom. And I just be like, and there's probably the martial art stuff. Just relax because he's working. He's working to keep me down there at the bottom.

And then when he comes up for air, then I just go a little more. And then he'd get his air and he'd drag me back down. But it was like us together. Like I love that part. That was my favorite part of butts. You know what I figured out. I figured out what the choke hold, right? I figured out like, okay, this is a choke, like a rear naked choke that I can use.

And the recovery is you, I think you put your arm over, like almost the same. But you grab them like by the lat on the other side. And I just realized, oh, if I just put my arm over here, it's going to choke this dude and it's going to make him get under control and then boom, I can go back to the position. But yeah, I had a good time with that. I failed pool comp.

Oh, yeah. Because the former UDT guy from NOM who ended up working for me at TradeNet. And one day I asked him, I said, you know what, do you remember failing me in pool comp? He goes, oh, yeah. I was just messing with you. I was like, oh, cool.

Thanks. Yeah, that's a lot. awesome appreciate it and then I passed the next time but yeah those those those the water I was pretty comfortable comfortable in from surfing growing up but for me everything I had to work hard yeah run hard all that stuff oh yeah that's the whole thing that's what it's all about so you get done you get done with buds and where'd you end up going going team five and you know back then you're like oh what's gonna happen oh North Korea is gonna happen yeah so I've got to hear reading stuff

in the end it's still gonna happen if you read the news so I went to team five That was my first choice. And just because of that. So now it's 1990. 1997. 1997. Yep. Showing up there.

Yeah. So I was still on the West Coast at this time. I was over at Team 1. Yep. And I was in training cell. That was right around when I got picked up for a commissioning program. So I'm just trying to think time frame like all the guys that I know from Team 5. We're all there.

Yeah. Old school 90s. Welcoming you aboard. Oh, yeah. It was great. Very gentle. Loved it environment. Yeah.

Actually, I loved it. you know and I thought we'd get there of course you can get issued a pager and then they'd give us all this awesome gear and we'd be at you know at the bar drinking and all of a sudden they'd go off like in the movies and we'd fly off and you know save the princess and get back in time for beers the next night yeah yeah yeah and then uh and I get there and it's like hey new guy uh clean that toilet and paint that wall change those light bulbs and I was like Roger that let's do it I'm gonna change I'm gonna be the best light bulb changer that uh that you've got here and uh so that was a little different Did you go through SQT at Group 1 or did you go through it?

Second time. Yeah, it was the second class at Group 1. Okay. And, yeah, so I went through that one. And it was good. It was professionalizing it, standardizing things. Obviously, it's more professional now. But, yeah, it was a great time.

I loved that. Had a blast. And then you rolled into a platoon, what was your position in your first platoon? What did you do? It's the assistant comm guy. Sure. So for whatever reason, they're like, oh, college, you're going to comp school. Oh, yeah.

I want to be a point, man. Exactly. You must be smart. I was going to say you must have wanted to be a point man. Yeah, of course. You read those books, right. Point man, of course, by what Patches Watson. And that's what you want to do, watching all those movies. So when they told me I was going to be a calm guy, I was like, dang it. You know, that's the guy that, well, one, it's the guy that's the guy that's the guy that's the guy. He's emacemicated, we make him a calm guy.

Yeah, you got the antenna sticking up in the jungle and over the grass and that's where they. So anyway, but I did that. And it was actually a great experience being a calm guy because you're part of the planning process is a new guy. And then you learn in the radios. Yeah, it was great. So going through that comms course and then bringing back the newest, whatever, newest radios, newest techniques, whatever it is to the platoon. So even though you have a primary comm guy, you kind of know, you know what's going on after that. That's a good course.

It was a good, it was anyway. It was a long course. So it was good to be part of the planning process. So for someone that was going to be an officer at some point, I got to experience planning. Did you even have that in your brain? I knew it was an option. Yeah. It was an option.

So it was either that or the other East Coast SEAL team. And, you know, I wanted to do both of those things. I thought. But I figured, hey, let's give this a, let's check it out. I'm brand new. Figure this out and see if I'm going to be an officer one day or go to another seal team or move on and go to the, you know, central intelligence agency, like all the people I read about and watched in the movies. So, and there's nothing going on, right? There's nothing going on late 90s. Yeah, because it's 1990s.

Exactly. Yeah, nothing happening. You know, some shipboarding. Like one platoon did a shipboarding. Was it your platoon? No. No. Because I did, I did some shipboardings. Burke in the day. Well, I did them right after September 11th, but this is before that. It was like, wow. Pre-September 11th doing shipboardings, I was like, you know, I was walking around like I was damn, you know,

the, like, whoever I was walking around like I was, you had a experience. We had big combat experience. Like, no, you're a loser. But back then, that's what you wanted to be doing. No, and to be quite frank, and we weren't walking around, like, but we were, I mean, I was completely stoked that we got to do something real,

that I got to lock and load my gun. Like that was cool. And it was good. It was, you know, good enough. Because most guys didn't get to do that. Most of time, many guys would just go on deployment and they would train other, other, you know, foreign militaries on how to do stuff. And that's cool. Build relationships with other countries.

Cool. All that. Do some big exercises. Cool. But to actually lock and load your weapon and get, have a real load out was pretty, was like a big step back down. And it felt great for me. But this was, so this is 97. And where'd you go on deployment?

So that was a paycom. So was it shipboard or no? No, no. This was all the things you just talked about. Yeah. So you're just training South Korea. Going to different countries. Yeah.

Australia, wherever else. So just the normal paycom type thing. Well, pre-September 11th with not much going on. And then you come back from that deployment, roll right into another platoon because that's what you guys do. They become a one cruise wonder. You get promoted to one cruise wonder. Oh, yeah.

Were you the primary comms guy or did you skate out of comms? Oh, no. Did you get any good schools in between? Yep, what'd you get? Free fall sniper. Oh, dang. Yeah, so. Double trouble.

Yeah, so sniper is what I wanted. So you must have been squared away because they don't just give those schools away. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, that's my chief. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was. I did. I checked with him.

He was a crazy man, that guy. But yeah, so right to right to sniper school, which is what I wanted, which I always wanted to do. So got there, did what, 73 days, I guess, and what, Kalinga, or you got the Valley fever and stuff going on. So, yeah. But you passed? So I passed, but I didn't pass stuff. because I didn't grow up doing that sort of thing.

So I was shooting, you know, that was good. I grew up shooting. So I had, yeah, no problems there. But then the stocking was a shock to me. I didn't really understand what was going. I was crawling. I was crawling for a thousand meters, you know, out to do this. And you can just walk for most of that.

You know, I didn't know that at the time. You know, those of us that didn't know what we were doing, we were just crawling in Nileland in the summer. And just, so I came back and did it again and then knocked it out. The second time had no problem. We just had Jason Gardner on and same. Same thing. He, you know, he's like, yeah, I was shot fine, but failed stalking. I'm not kidding.

And then he came back on again and was talking about, well, he talked about some of the mistakes he made and it was very similar to what you said. But they would tell him like, hey, figure out where you're trying to get to and actually analyze the situation before you start moving. And of course, when he was younger, he was just, no, I'm just going to go. And so he just went. And he would make it in time where people would see him. So yeah, that stalking thing is no joke.

But the second time was complete opposite. I think I just relaxed. the same time. Did you go, did you, when did you go through it the second time? When did you go back for stocking? Right before, I think we deployed. Yeah, right before we deployed the second time. You did it during that same workup. Yeah. Oh, okay. That's cool. That's awesome. Yeah, so right back. But yeah, I think I just relaxed. And I got there and knocked them all out, had, oh, you have points for people that don't know. Yeah. We build up points as you stock or whatever. So the last, I think, couple of stocks, I'd already had all my points. So I'm just trying to help other guys. Oh, that's cool.

You know, yeah, looking back, I'm like, should I really help these people? Or should they have, you know, should I've gone back to my CEL, my buds thing and like hit, but yeah, you're different. How would you help them? Like by trying to distract the instructors or by finding that, uh, that OPE, uh, but you have to crawl and get within a certain distance. Yeah. And then let him know, hey, no, you're too far. You're too close.

Um, risking by like, oh, there it is. So he didn't have to risk and look, uh, that sort of thing. So, um, should I've done that? Maybe not. But, uh, anyway, but it gave me good practice too, because I got to push the limits then, which gave me a lot of confidence. and what I was going to do later. That's pretty awesome.

And then I paid for myself to go to some urban sniper course at Pendleton, some, you know, one of these kind of fly-by-night operations that was going on back then to teach people how to do whatever. So I went to an urban sniper course that I paid for because I was curious. I didn't do that at the time in sniper school. So I got to learn about urban hides and all that sort of thing, which was pretty cool. Sweet, who's running it? I forget the name of it.

I think it had like, you know, some theories. But like who are the people? Were they? Former Marine snipers, I think. Yeah, well, if it was at Pendleton, I guess it probably was. They had some connections there or something. Exactly. Exactly.

So, and then free fall, too, and free fall was a crazy one because that was, I came back to the team one day and I didn't get free fall right away. I did sniper school and then usually kind of like one or the other for a new guy coming back. And so my friends went and I came back from, and this was the first time that they'd done the civilian deal where they were training to whatever that was. And so came back from lunch. It was like, you're back.

You know, you're kind of, you know, people going to schools. And it's, you know, so the people that they can leave or whatever got married. And so I came back and I see Andy Stumpf, who you know. And he's got this look on his face. And I'm like, oh, that's weird. I parked my truck. And, you know, there's no gate guard at the time. Just drive onto base.

Remember that? And he told us one of our dear friends had burned in and died in free fall, like in that first week. And I was like, and then, of course, what does the team do? after a night, you know, I go to the family, we're, you know, do your friends and do the whole, all that stuff is my first experience with that. And so what does the team do? Oh, you're going to free fall. Yeah.

Like a week later after the funeral, I'm like, dang, okay, let's do it. So, so yeah, I went to the Yuma, not the civilian one, but went to, went to Yuma. Stopped at Bragg first for the, for the air tunnel that they thing that they did back then, the wind tunnel. Oh, that's cool. And then, uh, and on to Yuma. So did those before my, uh, my second platoon. And then you go on your second, you go on your second deployment now.

Yep. When did you go on deployment? So a couple weeks before September 11th. Yep. So Guam expecting a tournament like the first one. Just today we're going to go train some people and finally get to go to Thailand. And yeah, two weeks into it, September 11th happened. People start banging on doors up and down the barracks.

And we didn't have TVs in our room then. So, you know, the phones are ringing because it's midnight, I guess, in Guam and, you know, 9 a.m on the east coast. And we all get up and go down to the basement of the barracks in Guam, where we had one TV. and we all watched the Twin Towers fall on TV. And I was the intel guy too. So I was comms and Intel. And so I'd been reading. I just read what the Bin Laden book was that previous year,

the man who declared war in America, I think it was called. And so I was doing, I was always reading this stuff. I was always fascinated by it. I was always reading about terrorism and surgencies and wanted to make myself the best seal I could possibly be. So I knew what Al-Qaeda meant. I knew it meant the base. And so I gave a brief right away.

And nobody knew. I remember the CEO of Guam. I had no idea who Al-Qaeda was. And so I gave my brief and obviously I've been studying it ever since. But that was we thought we'd be on planes the next day. I thought this is on. Let's go. We start palatizing, getting ready.

But it really took a couple weeks. And then off we went. And that's when I did the shipboarding's because we took over for Team 3 who went into Afghanistan. And we ended up taking their shipboarding mission, which actually looking back was a good one because that was my only shipboarding experience. And it was interesting because it's like a cop pulling over, pulling over someone in the middle of the night. You don't know what you're walking up on. You have no idea. And instead of a car and a cop, this is a class three tanker that's heading for Iranian waters

and you have a certain amount of time to get on there and turn it around. And it was an E5. I'm turning around a class three tanker using my GPS and a compass and turning this thing around. It was so it was pretty cool doing that. And there's some good coordination that has to happen on those. So as a calm guy, you're working a bunch of different networks. And then you're, did you end up? Yeah, well, you just said it.

You end up a lot of times being the person that knows how to work GPS because you're the calm guy. At least it used to be that way. Now everybody knows how to do it. But yeah. Actually, the map and compass, that's when I, later on jumping ahead, I had to relearn map and compass. Because I got so dependent on GPS. And there was a book, I think it's called Be Expert with Map and Compass. So when I took over the junior officer training course before I got out, we had a really good map course that we did.

Yeah, the Map and Compass course, the Map and Compass, so I was a calm guy. and when we first started getting issued, this was in like 92, we first started getting issued the big GPSes. Oh yeah. They were like the size of a, and they were big. They were like the size of two shoe boxes,

maybe. I remember they were big. The PSN8 with this big giant antenna that was like the size of my water bottle. But what was interesting is they say, okay, Jocko, you gotta figure out how to work this thing, so I figured how to work it.

And then I said, well, all it does is tells us where we are. And they're like, yeah. And I said, if we have a map and compass, we're good. Like, I know where we are on a map and compass for sure. Like, I know. I don't see it's different when you want you to get over the horizon.

But anyways, so it was kind of always surprising to me that it's so much easier. If you do a good terrain study, you can just walk and you can look at your compass occasionally and you know where you are rather than constantly looking at a GPS and getting your night vision trashed from that or whatever. It just was a different transition. I mean, and then obviously GPS has became so good. that yeah, I mean, they're pretty awesome. Everyone has one on their watch. Yeah, they're pretty awesome now.

But I did like the mapping compass stuff because I grew up doing it in the Cierras. I grew up backpacking and doing it. But before I came, after college, I went to Alaska for three months and backpacked around up there. Did a national outdoor leadership school up there. Once again, training, getting ready. You were so ready for buds.

I went to high school. That's what I did. But that just goes, oh, it doesn't matter. It's all the metal part. It doesn't matter how much you prepare or how little prepare. It's all, if you want it, your average athlete and you want this thing, hey, just don't quit.

You'll learn along the way. You'll get in better shape when you start running that sand. Just don't quit. That sand will get you a good running shape. So at what point did you put in for an officer package? So that's spring before the September 11th deployment. It was we had a, let's say, a chief that was interesting, a leadership team I'd say that was interesting. And, you know, the E5 Mafia was not happy.

They were and it was It's one of those things like hey I can complain about it like everybody else or I can put in this package and go and do it better than it was done for me So so that's what I did And you got picked up first time? Yeah, oh you already had a college degree and all that Yeah, so put in did it but now got my I remember there's I won't say who he is because I think he's an admiral now But he was an ex-o at the time and he went for my interview and it's a Friday afternoon So Friday afternoon team five workout included a keg and so you know I didn't I did the workout, but then I changed into my whites.

So now I'm in my whites in the spring, and those things are horrible. I hate those uniforms. But so I'm in my whites, getting them all perfect. And I go in to do my interview with the ex-o at the time, Admiral now. And he's got a beer in front of him and his PT stuff. He's like, I just want you to know how this is going to go. And if it's any indication, this beer should be an indication of how this interview is going to go. And I was like, but I was still, you know, doing military bearing and the whole thing.

But yeah, of course, I did. I had a good first two platoons as a new guy. I would know war going on. And so I got, yeah, I got picked up the first time. And then you went to OCS? Oh, yeah, after I got back. So, but of course September 11th happens and I'm like, dang it. I made the wrong choice.

Because where you want to be is you want to be an enlisted guy. You know, it'll be in the fight for a while first anyway. Yeah. So, but it ended up working out well because I got right back from that deployment. Did, well, I did a little training trip to a place and that was a great experience. And then classed up for OCS at, in Pensacola. In Pensacola?

And did the same things. Yeah. I did that too. It's awful. They did the same things we did in boot camp, folding underwear, folding t-shirts, making our bed, you know, all those things that somehow qualify you to lead men in combat. And then right to the SEAL teams, right back to SEAL teams and ended up at a great team that kind of, well, the CEO had just come back from another East Coast SEAL team.

I think spent almost a year deployed after September 11th and brought his lessons learned back. And then he sent me to that team and right down range. So as a brand new officer. I was downrange fairly quickly. So timing-wise, it worked out well for me. That's beautiful. Yeah.

I got learned a ton on that deployment and then brought that back to my team and then deployed again right away to Iraq. So I got a good... Then you deployed as an assistant-toon commander. I was sounding like a third-o. Third-oh, that's right. There was a third-o. That's right. There's a third-o.

Yep. Third-o. So you ended up doing a lot of the admin stuff. And you still learn a lot. But that's when, as an extra guy, essentially, that's when Najaf happened. And so that's when I had probably the most formative time in uniform was taking a sniper team into a joff. So it's, you know, pitched combat for, I think it was a two-week campaign. So it was 11 days.

And it was one of the first times, I think, that we really went to the conventional side and said, hey, how can we help? You know, we're here to support you in this campaign. Here's what I'm bringing to the table. These snipers, J-Tax, we can control aircraft for you. We can pre-plan air. And this is what we can offer. How can this augment you? How can this help?

and I'm sure this happened before, but that was the first time that I was involved in something like that and had a great relationship. Colonel Rainey was the guy's name. He must be a general now or retired. Probably retired now. But I had a great relationship with him and we just got after it for 11 days out there.

It was great. How many team guys did you have with you? We had six, I think, and then we had some Polish Grom guys and then Marsock debt one because they were part of that deployment. With us, it was the, I guess, trial run. or whatever you call it.

No, I, I, so I, those guys turned over with me in Baghdad. Okay. Yep. Because when you guys got to Baghdad from your team, yep. You went to Mosul. Yep. First. And I was down in Baghdad doing a turnover with the Marshock guys, which I knew a bunch

of the Marshock guys from the old days of doing shipboard deploy. Oh nice. And they were a bunch of awesome guys. Awesome. And then yeah, and then I went home. And then I guess you came down to Baghdad right before I went home. Take the PSD thing. Yeah.

Yeah. And while that was going on. we're standing that thing up. And I learned a ton there too because you're like, what are we doing? We're protecting the intermaraki government officials and we're not turning over with anybody because it hasn't been done before. And the last guy before that, we just got blown up by an IED. Okay, let's do this. Let's figure it out. And so, I mean, we started with one computer in my CEO from Team 2. And it was, I was at that computer just like, he'd be talking to me, dictating things and putting together the mission, blah, blah, blah.

And I was just learning and, you know, chiming in where I could. So you were there when PSD got stood up. Yeah, yep, one computer in one small office and then it grew into this huge monstrosity, which it eventually became. But still learned a lot. But that also meant that I was an extra, extra dude as we kind of figured out what was going on. And then I got to go up and help out with Marsok Debt 1 because one of their guys had to go back and do something. So I got to go up and help them out for a little bit on the intel side of the house for a few weeks.

And while I was there, that's when Najaf kicked off. And they're like, we need snipers. And so he just grabbed snipers and throw us together. Yes. Boom. Awesome. Scores. Yeah, but I remember the COA Team 1, so he was attached to that Marsok thing.

So I was essentially working for Team 1 at the time. And I remember him distinctly calling me in because I was the O and I was taking these guys to do this thing that was kind of ambiguous. We're taking over a city as part of a bigger campaign with a 27-Cave. And he said, hey, whatever you do, and whatever this means, I didn't really know what it meant. I just nodded. But he's like, whatever you do, don't go forward to friendly lines. And I was like, okay.

Like, what does he mean? So within hours of being on the ground, we are pushing forward, taking, pushing the enemy back, going up, getting high ground, and calling in the Bradley's and Abrams and coordinating all that stuff. So right away, I'm disobeying his order and getting the job done because that's what it took. But it was incredible to work with those guys. And it was a hodgepotted people.

It wasn't just 27 cab. It was Army National Guard units. It was air from everywhere, all coming together, working together for the first time in making this thing happen and pushing the enemy back towards the Imam Ali Mosque, which is one of the holiest sites in all of Islam. And on that 11th day, we had that place, all of them in the Imam al-Malimah. So we worked every day. We'd push forward a little bit and then go up, take the high ground. Everybody'd come up. We'd do that. Maybe to be there for a day, though, the water would come up, the food would come up. That army logistics train would keep us moving.

And then we'd push forward again. And it was incredible to be part of that and help out where we could. But then, of course, we have them right where we want them. And is a, you know, brand new guys want to bomb it. I want to drop a bomb on the Imam Ali Mosque. Looking back, you know, that probably not the right decision. No, no, no. But Matta al-Sauder's in there.

A good tactical call, but not the best strategic call. No, definitely. Now, in hindsight, and with what I've studied since, you know, bombing one of the holiest sites in all of Islam probably was not, would not have been the right move. So that was denied. But Matta al-Assadr was in there,

although the Madi Militia was in there. And then they did some sort of a peace, agreement ceasefire-ish thing or whatever. And then we got to watch them all leave and turn their weapons over to the Iraqi National Guard or somebody. And that was the end of that. So, and then we dealt with repercussions for a while. But it was a good tactical experience. Yeah. Because I got to come back and talk about having, you know, sniper weapon systems, but also being able to have a red dot on those things to clear rooms because we're clearing rooms and then using those same weapon systems to set up and do the job. So I got to bring a lot of different ways to, you know,

make the little bit become loopholes or whatever in the walls and you know all that sort of thing so got to bring back and share a lot of that experience how much longer was deployment once you got done with that i think like a month or so okay so it was kind of like yeah you were just like so stoked yeah it was pretty good and uh yeah it's always a that was a formative experience and uh and then it was they called it it wasn't the surge but in the seal teams we called it the surge so we got to deploy a year later instead of a year and a half later. I was really all that meant. So I got to get right back after it.

So yeah, because then you came home. Yeah. Now did you get platoon commander? So now I'm a second O, the assistant. Now you're the official assistant. Working my way up. The second O. I'm in charge of eight guys.

That's great. Yeah. It was amazing. Yeah. You're super stoked. You're like, well, I just had that awesome deployment. And now I get to do another assistant platoon commander.

Pretty much. No factor. And this time you got to do an actual workup. Or you did a workup the first time too. Ish, but that that third O. So I was that third O. So I was doing admin stuff here and there. And it wasn't quite the way it is today where you're only doing admin stuff is that kind of guy attached to the task unit head shed or whatever.

But essentially I was doing a ton of the admon stuff. But you're still doing all that. You still did the workup. Yeah. You still did the workup. You still went to the Mouth. You still went to Lian Warfare? Not all of them.

Oh, really? Nope. Because I had my deployment with the other East Coast team in there. I came back. I did Haiti when that went down because I was an extra guy. So I got to go down there, which was pretty cool. You make a good strap hanger, huh? You got one of those guys that kind of like.

I didn't. Because he didn't land like that. I was always kind of like, oh, man, I'm not in the, you know, I'm not the second. I'm not an AOC. You're giving a good deal, Dave. Good deal, Dave Berka run for his money. It was, it was not a bad time to be just a dude hanging out that they could grab at any time. And of course, I'm like, can you go?

Yep. Yeah. Of course. I can go. Hey, sweetie. I'm leaving this afternoon for Haiti. So you, so now you're in your, now you're doing an actual workout. You get to do all the training and then you go on deployment.

And you go back to Iraq again. Yep. Yep. And I'm Adramati this time. Sweet. So going into Ramada. So now it's 05. So five, yep, fall of 05.

And that's where we wanted to be. Yeah. Of course, it changes throughout that work of. You're going here, you're going there, whatever. But I forget at what time it turned to you were going to Ramadi now. But that's where you, that's where you wanted to be in 05, 06. And so we got to get in there. And, you know, it was interesting because I forget if there was someone there before us or not.

I don't know why I can't remember if there was a turn. There must have been somebody there, but it doesn't stand out in my head anyway. I think it was a much smaller debt before you guys were there. Maybe. And I wasn't part of that initial, that first, when the head shed goes over first, like the head shed went over and then I was the senior guy that came over with the rest of the guys. So I didn't really do. When we got there, most everyone was gone and it was just time to figure it out. So we got to do a few cool things, like going out with the Marines, dressing up like a Marine, getting left behind to do the snipers. You know, not exactly what you guys did because you guys really got after it.

But, you know, baby steps. Yeah, right on. So it was, you know, just going out with the Marines in the day, you know, doing those patrols, like, where this, where the IED threat is high. And one of the most dangerous cities in the world at the time, like, that was legit. Yeah. That's a get some evolution. Yeah. Or just being on the base, essentially.

I mean, with mortars coming in at night. And I stayed, I didn't stay in that, that, whatever the building. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, there's nothing there to protect you from a mortar coming in.

Like you're just sleeping and all of a sudden I'm going to land on you. Mortars suck. Yeah. Well, on the receiving end. Yep. And then during that deployment as well, you also went to Baghdad and worked with an indig force there too. Yep.

Yep. So that's why I didn't see you in turnover. Got to do the second thing in my time in the military that was the most formative and, yeah, go do some stuff in Baghdad with another. Do the DAs, basically? Yep. Yep. Doing that with a more of a civilian type organization.

And, yeah, with a little less. I guess oversight, you'd say. So I loved it. Just did fit my personality and my drive, I guess. Like, I was a perfect fit for me at that time. Actually, one of the things that happened during that time was the inspiration for the second book, one of the guys that I met there, one of the Iraqis that I was working with. But, yeah, that was a great time.

Learned a ton. We're right there next to guys from Great Britain, other Army guys from their, I guess, premier special operations unit. So we're doing stuff together and we're training together and you guys had a really good off tempo if I remember correctly It was a good time to be part of that Yeah, so I had a blast doing that learned a ton and I got to stay active Got to got to got to got to get after it every not every night, but you know Yeah good good off tempo and then you wrap up that deployment Which again these are these are you got some choice deployments

I mean choice yeah choice deployments It was a good time to what to be in my timing was was good there. But then I get back. So now I've done five deployments in a row. And you're married? I'm married. Yep. Got married after that first deployment. And what's the kid count at this point? We are at one. Okay. One. And then two for the next one and then three for the next one. So what did you do when you got home from that deployment to with when you got done with your assistant platoon commander tour? So this is where my good deal train ends and I get it back

and now I've done five deployments in a row if you count the enlisted ones three is an officer all of them getting after it and they're like you need to go somewhere and get some professional development Oh yeah they did So they'd call wind of your scam

And they're putting a holth on that thing Yep And so my ex-o had done Was the ops had been the opso in Germany So he's like you need to go to Germany And you need to learn what a unit does Like unit two What?

Like that's a place to be in 1944 That's where I want to be. Not in 2007. And so I went kicking and screaming. I probably should have just said Roger that, you know. But, you know, I have five deployments in a row, and those last three being fairly intense, I didn't want my guys to go back without me. You know, I felt like abandoning them to go to Germany and go, like, taste wine and look at, like,

castle walls in these different towns, like, that, no. But you got to go. But since I'd worked with that other government agency, I got to, kind of, I guess you'd say, recruited by them. And while I'm waiting to go to Germany, I go up to D.C. and do my bunch of tests that they put you through up there and get a class update to go to that organization.

And so I get to Germany. I'm there for a few months. It's horrible. Well, they think it to French language school first because they thought I was going to go to North Africa, West Africa. How long is French language school? Six months. Okay, six months.

That was actually good, you know, good, whatever, good family time, all that stuff. but I still wanted to be in Iraq or Afghanistan. Straight up DLI and in Monterey. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Luckily I was at an offsite, so I didn't have to go on base.

So that was, that was good. So I guess, I guess, not it's keeping it good. Yep. And of course, now I find out about CrossFit. So I found about CrossFit in Ramadi. So now I'm just crushing the CrossFit. And people think I'm insane.

Because no one really had seen that yet. It's 2006, 2007. And they're like, what do? Especially outside of the SEAL teams or outside of, you know, firefighters and all that stuff. Just the regular gym. They see you doing all the swinging burbells around like their kettlebell or whatever. So I'm getting in shape.

I'm training for my next whatever deployment, trying to make myself better. But we go to Germany, get there, hate it. A lot of people that were loving it. And that made me hate it even more. And I probably, you know, I probably should have just said, this is where the government needs me. So I'm going to do the best I can while I'm here. And I did the best I could, but you're not doing anything. It was awful.

I shouldn't say that. It is a very important place to be. And they have a mission. Yeah. That's great. But it wasn't for me. So I dropped my papers to get out to go to that. Because I just wanted to get back to what I was doing in Iraq and Baghdad, 2006, getting it.

And so drop my papers and it was going to go, just get out and go do that. And then two weeks later, they call me, the CEO called me back in. And so say there's an OIC at Team 7 got out. There's a spot open. Do you want it? And I was not expecting that at all. And I said, whoa, my mind was already set. I was essentially mentally, I was out, I was training.

I was getting ready to go back downrange with this. other group. And so I went home, talked to my wife. She was pregnant again with her second child. And we decided to stay in. I'm like, okay, I can get back after to do that leadership role that I became an officer to have. And we went to Team 7. And that's where I met you. Right on. So now I get my first taste of Jocko and some finally some actual professional development that mattered. And it's up until that point is baptism by fire. Like, Show up at Team 2. Hey, you're going to Afghanistan. Boom.

No training other than the T-shirt folding and underwear folding at OCS. But luckily, I had some really good guys on those deployments that had already been to Afghanistan that took me under their wing that showed me how here's how these nods work. The Point Man only had them in your last platoons before September 11th. Here's how you use these things. Yeah, and that's kind of the way it used to be. It was OJT and the young junior officers or even the young enlisted guys you just get trained by the more experienced guys.

And that works great if you're lucky enough to have a good experience guy that has the desire to teach you, that really cares about the job, that wants to do a good job, that recognizes the importance of leadership. And then it works fine. Yeah. The problem is that's not, it doesn't always work like that. Right. You get a guy that's a knucklehead.

You get a guy that doesn't care. You can just end up in a bad situation. And then some young kids, we're young, we're influential. What? Close. We're very easily influenced. Yeah. And we see how a bad leader acts and they tell us that that's how we're supposed to act and we start acting that way.

It's very, I've seen that happen many times. You know, I'd meet a guy. I'd meet a guy that would be coming through my training and like he wouldn't quite be a good leader. And I, you know, I'd say, you'd just be talking to him like, oh, who was your platoon chief when you were a new guy? And they'd name a guy and I'd say, okay, well, you could very easily find the root problems here. Right. Or I'd get a young, oh, I'd get a platoon chief. And I'd say, well, who is your, you know, who is your platoon commander when you were in AIC?

And they'd give a name. And they did the guy would be a bad leader. And you'd say, okay, well, I know where you got this from. And they'd give me the ability to actually steer them in the right direction and say, hey, you know, I wouldn't be offensive about their old boss or anything. But I'd start like saying, hey, there's another way to look at these things. So, yeah, sure. Yep. But it sounds like, but you got lucky.

You had some good leadership. I mean, I know who your CEO was at Team 2. He's freaking outstanding. Yep. And yeah. So you had some good, you know, some great mentorship. Yeah, and he cared about it. He cared about mentorship.

And the senior guys that he brought with him from his other command also cared about those senior chiefs. They cared about what the next generation of both enlisted and officers were going to do and how they were going to lead. And so I was very fortunate to be the recipient of that mentorship and that guidance. And that served me well. And I had a good foundation anyway, but having that, have somebody that cared. that put a little structure, I mean not, not, you know, a little structure behind it was,

was refreshing. And, yeah, I just took all that on board and just, you know, want to be the best leader I could for my guys. But now a team seven, so that's, now it's, well, we won't, it was a good, it was a great experience as an OIC, but most of that was due to the training that you brought. And so now I got to professionalize things a little bit, think about them. And now my deployment, my good deal train, I thought ended. And it for, it spikes. a little bit and we thought, oh, we're going back to Afghanistan. Yes, and it's going to be you guys because you got, anyway, so it didn't end up being my platoon. So I got to go to the PI, got to go to the Philippines. And at first I'm like,

that's a bummer. But it ended up being a great experience at an outstation, had more special forces guys working for me than I had SEALs working for me. At multiple outstations that reported to me. And we were there to, you know, assist, the assistant advise type thing. But it was with a Philippine Marine General. And he'd been down there fighting that insurgency in the Southern Island chain since he was an ensign, whatever they, you know, a second lieutenant. And so I took the role of a student with him and amazing guy. And just I really learned the area, learned what they were up against, learned how the enemy was adapting to them and how it had changed over his 30-some years of doing that. And of course, he was mentored because they've been doing that for over 100 plus years.

they've been fighting that thing. So he was a recipient of mentorship and lessons from the people that came before him. And I took that time because I noticed that the SF guys, the Army SF guys, particularly the warrant officer that was there with me, knew a lot more about counterinsurgency than I did. Like I had the tactical kick in the door. I had that experience, but I didn't have that broader piece yet. And so I took that time in the Philippines to study and read a ton. And who are the foremost experts on counterinsurgency out there? Where are they? How are I get in touch with them? Do they have anything I can read? And so I just really schooled myself up. And so it became kind of a competition between me and him in discussions

about counterinsurgencies worldwide, but particularly where we are, but how that applies more broadly. So I took it as a time to, and we did get to go to, they got to do some things down there, the film Marines with us just, you know, helping with some more technical things. But they got to get after it. And they lost guys and we were there doing the medevac and doing and all that sort of thing. You know, the bodies lined up the whole deal. And it was, so it ended up being a very, I guess, another formative experience for me.

And then I got to use what I learned about working with the Army once again, but in my next deployment as a troop commander. Once again, I went back to Iraq and had more SF guys working under my command than I had seals. So it was good, it was a good run. So you went through that. work up when you were a platoon commander in 2008? Yeah, cool.

Yeah, so I was pretty settled in because I'd come home in 2006 and 2007 I took over the training. So yeah, we were going hard. Oh yeah, oh yeah, my first experience, you know, I heard all about this jaco guy. Like, what? Who is this guy? And the first time you walked into that room, that briefing room at Fort Knox, the stadium seating and they have the diorama things up with the sand tables up front. And you came in and gave us this talk and I was like, dang.

Yeah, let's go get it. It was awesome. But I had one of my more formative experience in training in that particular urban warfare environment thing where you probably remember the scenario because you probably did it for most of the platoons and troops coming through. But you have a mission. And you go out there and you're doing that mission. I'm the ground force commander now, the GFC. and I'm there in my vehicle and helicopter crashes like a few buildings down, a few blocks down. And that comes over there.

They're radioing for help for a couple blocks away. And we still have guys in the building. And our guys are taking contact in the building. And it's all set up, whatever. And I'm like, I'm hearing that, and I'm not going. I'm going to deal with this problem first. We're going to prioritize and execute. Yes.

But I wasn't quite doing that yet. I wasn't quite doing. I'm listening to the radio and I'm hearing they have a woman screaming, helicopter pilot, female screaming like ah they're they're surrounding us with the whole thing and like ah what do I do ah and I split my force oh yeah I split my force and uh so hey these two vehicles breaking off you're gonna go to the crash site secure the crash site we'll then meet you at that crash site and we'll exfell together so you know what happens next oh yes I do disaster disaster disaster stress everything goes and that was the point of the exercise I think if you split your force that I don't know what happens

every time, but in this case, it did. It turned up at being a disaster. We get out, we leave guys behind, we have to go back in, the whole thing. It was great. It was great. But I remember sitting down with you afterward and really drove home. Yeah, prioritize and execute. And if you split your force, you better have a damn good reason to split that force. Just had a guy named John Stryker Meyer on the podcast. The last podcast, you couldn't have heard it yet because it's not out yet. but he's telling a story he's in Vietnam and this guy's just incredible SOG, just the most insane stories ever. And he's telling a story.

And he goes, yeah, so I split my forces and I put, you know, four guys on one side of the valley and four guys on the other side of the valley. And we started moving. And I had to like find out, bro, because I mean like, this is, this is disturbing to me. Right. And so I said, I was like, hey, explain to me, you know, what, what made you decide to split your forces. I said, I never like, and he goes, I never, he goes, I split, no, this is what he said, he goes, I split my forces two times in Vietnam. Other than that, it's a horrible idea.

Because I didn't even like doing it here. I didn't have a choice. So that is a true statement. That is a true statement. If you can avoid splitting your forces, avoid splitting your forces. And if you have to, you better have a damn good plan. You better have a damn good reason. Because then when you add enemy fire into it, trying to link up forces, friendly forces under enemy fire,

I believe that's the hardest thing to do in combat. I think that's the hardest thing to do in combat is separate forces trying to link up with enemy contacts. Right. Is a freaking nightmare. Yep. And so if you can avoid it, avoid it. Yep.

I had to do that in Baghdad once with a QRF that we'd just talked to on the radio before. And so that was a little dicey. But yeah, that not split in your forces, prioritizing and executing. I'll never forget that. I never forget that experience. And luckily, up until that point, I hadn't been in a situation where I had to do it down range because I probably would have done it. But after that training, I don't know.

I was like, I would think, I think long and hard. Yeah. Maybe not long and hard. I would think, uh, think it through, uh, before doing that. That's a tough move to make. Yep. That was a great one. For me coming back from Ramadi, I was like super, uh,

paranoid about stuff and really into the fact that like I wanted people to not make dumb mistakes that I, made or that I could have made or that I saw other people make. So I was pretty adamant to make sure that guys were learning lessons. Oh, yeah. No, it was amazing. That training was great. And then we went to Nyland, of course, and did the land of warfare thing. And I was very comfortable with that because we had a team on the East Coast,

we'd done that IMT individual movement technique earlier on, I guess, maybe on the West Coast. So I had it, I'd done it a couple times already. So some of my junior officers that had never done it, before and they were like, what are we doing? What? It's not just just online and just the old school. So they didn't quite, quite get it. But as a platoon command, I was very comfortable with that at Nileland. So, and it was, yeah, obviously amazing training, especially when the technology that's,

that came along at that time where there was no, there was no, there was no hiding from any mistakes that you might have made out there. You got the GPS on you and you go back and you deep refit. There's none of that old school 90s like, no, that wasn't me. I think it was so-and-so over there. I would never do something like that. Oh, no, here it is. Here's your number or whatever it was.

on there and and you can watch it all in the debrief. Yeah, watch your little, watch your little, what's that, what's that term? Your little icon move around on the battlefield and watch your little icon engage your own forces. Oh yeah. You can watch that over and over again. Right. Yep. No, exactly. And then going through the second time, you know, things evolve and change and all that, but going through the second time as a troop commander, then I was even more comfortable with it, particularly in those, those situations. I knew the lessons we wanted to get out of

there and then I could do it a little better even then when I was a platoon commander because I already learned some of those in those particular scenarios but yeah that was an amazing training and there's no there's no question the impact that has had on the on the SEAL teams for the for them for the in a positive way carried some down men did you at that was awesome yeah yeah everybody everyone's down every yeah gosh yeah it was a lot of down men drills yeah it was a lot of it's been I mean especially and then what was cool for And people always remember that, but, but, well, they talk to me about it.

And, and sometimes even then, you know, this is too much, you know. And the fact of the matter is, if you, if your leadership did a good job inside of a task unit or inside of a troop, if the leadership did a good job and the, and they used decentralized command and the fire team leaders got up and made things happen. And they kept things simple. Like, if they did those things, you couldn't, we, the trade at guys, the trade at cadre couldn't take. They couldn't, they couldn't put a bunch of people down because they would get their,

ass is kicked by the troop. The troop would crush them. And, you know, that would usually not happen early on because they would have to figure this out. But once they got good at it, like the trade guys would say, you know, they'd be calling up myself or the or the master chief running it and be like, hey, can you bring me back to life? Can you bring me back to life? And be like, no, man, you, you know, you got killed. Of course, sometimes we would bring them back to life to press the platoon harder. Of course, I'm not, I'm not going to claim that we didn't do that because damn, we're going to put the pressure. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, that was amazing. That was amazing. mandrill's, yeah, get you, get you in shape.

And then, but then it gets people pissed off. That guy came back to life and you're pissed and you're not making good decisions. And, you know, and the other thing, it's that you taught me and I passed on and that's I still think about today and it's like it's in the book, you know, take a breath, look around, make a call as easy as that. It's like, I think about that a lot. Like, all I got to do is sit back, get off my gun. Yeah.

Look around. What's going on? What's the tactical situation? And make a call. Yeah. That's it. so simple, so not easy. So not easy to do.

But it's cool for someone like yourself, that's a sniper that likes to shoot and all of a sudden you're a task unit commander, it's real easy to get to go right back to what you're super comfortable with, which is, hey, I'll just get on my gun and start killing bad guys. But you got 40 other guys that are doing that.

And none of those 40 guys are actually making a decision about where you're gonna go next to save everyone. So you're the guy that has to do it. So that's a good one. For sure. And I look back at old pictures, I see, how my load out changed over the years.

And now by the time I was a troop commander, you know, I'm a lot lighter. Well, I'm radios now. I'm two of them. And I'm like, but my mags, I'm like, ah, only three in one of the gun or whatever it was. But there's a reason for that. It's because my job is not to control this element

and crush the enemy, not to be on the trigger. And then what was your, what was that deployment like? Where'd you go as a to you? So that was interesting because it was the, it was the withdrawal from Iraq. Okay. So we were there six months.

But it was because we didn't know if we were staying, if we were going, if we were staying, what our authorities were going to be, where we were going to be based. There was a lot of questions. So we had to prepare both to stay long term and to get up, pack, and come home, which is what ended up happening. So I think we got, they made us, our element actually ended up going, leaving at the end of November, I guess. There was another month there. But it was getting, packing up and going home, essentially. But you're working with a partner force. and you're using your technical intelligence to try to prosecute targets so that this wasn't going to become a highway of death on the way out of there as the enemy just sets.

Did you drive out of there? No, we flew. You guys flew out. Now, they drove out pretty peacefully too. Yeah. It was just a big massive convoy. I'll see you later. Exactly.

It was not, now what we expected. So, but it's cool for a little bit because you got, I think they got a little more liberal with some of the targets there for a while when they're like, okay, we don't want this highway. death. That's not going to be on me because I denied. I didn't want to let a unilateral op go when we're leaving anyway. So, so God, for a little, we got to do a couple ops, but, but mostly it was a leadership challenge to keep the guys focused on their mission, well, at the same time, getting ready to go home for almost the entire deployment. So it was an interesting time. That was Basra, Southern Iraq, so I hadn't been down there before. The Brits had been there first, of course, Totally different terrain than anything I had dealt with before.

And it was, but it was good. It was an interesting deployment. Had a great senior chief. And who's still in, who's still in crushing it. And, yeah, came home. And that was the last time I'd ever tactically lead guys on the battlefield. And I knew that. And pretty much as soon as we were airborne on the way home, I'm like, getting out.

Okay. So that was it. How many years were you out at that point? I think I was at 16 right there. And what was your family situation at this time? So three kids. And right, it was during the second work, so in my OIC workup, the one where I met you and then went to the Philippines, that's when our middle child was born. And we found out, I think it was at the eight month checkup that something wasn't quite right.

And he ended up, well, I'll get to what he has, but we didn't know what was going on. He wasn't eating, wasn't meeting milestones. There was something off. And my wife knew right away, but I was just like, I was just a kid, I'll eat when he's hungry, that sort of thing. And we didn't know what was happening. So all during that second of that deployment, they put me in that exceptional family member category five because it was pretty severely disabled,

which means that you're not going anywhere outside of your current medical situation for your family. So it essentially takes the decision out of the service member's hands, which is a good thing. Meaning you're going to stay, you were in San Diego. So that exceptional service member thing says, okay, we got to take care of this guy. He's going to stay in San Diego.

Yep, yeah. So there's different levels to it, but ours was the most severe. They did that during your second, during your OIC tour or during your TU commander tour? I think during the TU commander tour, the first, we're still trying to figure out what was going on during that first one and nobody knew what was going on with them. So it's a lot of a lot of doctor visits, all that sort of thing. But my wife did it all because, as you know, when you're in, that pendulum has to be on the team. That's your responsibility as a leader. You owe it to the mission. You owe it to the guys.

You owe it to their families. You owe it to the country, ultimately, to have that be your sole focus. and that's how it was. The pendulum is over there, and my wife got that. That's what you do as a leader, obviously. So when I got back, well, yeah, when I got back, we still don't know. So now I've done two workups with this situation, two deployments with this situation. My wife's handled it the whole time, super strong, get back, and I go to Buds as the opsos. So now I get to see people ring the bell outside that office and put the helmet down. But in my head, I know I'm done. And I didn't make a I didn't hide it. A lot of guys will hide it if they're planning on getting out.

They won't say anything to anybody in the chain of command because they might stay in or whatever it is. But I'm like, yep, I'm getting out that 20. And they're like, no, you're going to go be an ex. Not a getting out of 20. And it kind of surprised people when I'd say that. Because Buds is a machine. That thing's running. And as an opso, it's fairly, I don't know, it's not as dynamic, let's say, as at a SEAL team. And it was during that, well, A little after that that someone told Ross Perrault, our story, the Ross Perrault in Texas, the guy. And so. About your son.

Yeah. About our son. Because you still didn't know what was going on. Right. So this is six years. Taking into a bunch of different hospitals. He's six years old. Yep.

No idea what's happening. All sorts of different diagnosis. It was paid for Cedar Sinai going up there, who we thought were the foremost experts. To oxygen, my wife would take him to an oxygen tank for 30 days, two hours a day or whatever it was that we paid for just to say. see if anything would help. Someone tells Ross Perot our story, and this is December of 2013, I want to say.

And I get a call out of the blue from Ross Perrault, who sounds exactly like Dana Carvey impersonating Ross Perrault in the 90s. And I'm like, what is going on? And he's like, I'm going to, we're going to fix your son. Like, what? And he's like, yeah, we're going to send the jet. I'm going to assemble a team of doctors here in Texas. and we're going to fix him. And then he hangs up. Like, what just happened? That was wild. And about an hour

later, his lead doctor at Southwestern Medical Center calls and says, hey, I know Mr. Perot has called you. We're not going to send the jet tomorrow, but we are going to send it. And in the meantime, send us everything you have on your son, any medical records. And we'll assemble a team of genetic specialists here that will take a look at everything and we'll bring you guys in for some testing and see what we can do. It's like, wow, amazing. So a month later, they send the jet, G550 lands. get on and head off to Texas and go to a week of testing in Dallas. And they sent our blood all around the world and found a genetic specialist in the Netherlands who had just discovered the certain genetic mutation that helps form the brain

at birth. And now it has a name to it. It's the three doctors that discovered this. But when we found out about it, he was the 13th person in the world. So number 13 in the world they found with this. And it was just called NR2F1, which is the gene. that this mutation affects. And being able to put a name to it for us, especially for my wife, that was so liberating. I can't really describe what it means. Just to put a name to it. It seems like

a simple thing, but not knowing for six years and then being able to put a name to it and know that hey, this is just one of those random freaky things that happens and there's nothing you could have done about it. And that's it. Just we got to put a name to it. So it was like, Roger that. Okay. Now what do we do? And for us, that's our mission. in life. He gave us purpose and that purpose and mission is to make sure that he reaches his full potential, whatever that may be, but he needs 24-7 full-time care for life. So, and we have two kids bracketing him on either side. So the real challenge is raising those kids so that their childhood is not solely defined by the brother's condition. And hopefully it makes us all more loving,

more compassionate people. And so far, it's worked out that way. But once again, my wife still bears the brunt of that every day because I'm out here. You know, I'm having a nice dinner last I'm here hanging out with you. And she's at home. You make me sound like the bad guys. Or let's just say, I go on book tour. How about that? I go on two weeks of book tour.

And, you know, I'm shaking hands and saying, ah, all that. And she's got it, you know. The wives that, the wives are incredible. You know, mine included, she raised four kids. And, you know, I was barely ever around. So, and, you know, same thing with every guy that we have on here that talks about what their wives had to. And I think Jason Gardner, when he was on.

He said the first time he was on he said put up with his wife had to put up with a lot and then he came back on and said like he didn't mean it like that It's like actually had the strength to handle Exactly what the appropriate statement is hey, you know the wives the the wives that stick around Yeah which isn't a big number right most most women don't have the strength is to get through this and deal with this kind of thing But you know obviously your wife is a saint and as is mine and like okay You're gonna be gone all the time cool, I got this. I'm going to handle it. And that's how it has to be. So now, hopefully the pendulum is not quite like this.

Like I'm not dealing with life and death situations. So I can help out a little more. But I'm still, this is an entrepreneurial type venture. Writing is not just writing in a cave somewhere and setting it off to New York. It's everything that goes along with building a small business. So right now it's a full on sprint. We have momentum. And I don't really have any other speed besides just all in. So building this thing. But it's not like you're deploying for. six months. Although things do shift now. So now, even a two-week trip, that's like a six-month appointment, relatively now, because it's not the country asking you to do this. You don't, you don't owe it to the guys or the mission anymore type thing. But yeah, I know I'm super,

super fortunate to have the wife that I do. She's so strong. And yeah, our son is, so he's 11 now, and has the mental capacity by a two-year-old, I'd say. And, but with only so few people in the world diagnosed with this. I think now they're probably up to must be in the 70s now. But, you know, every day is a, every day is still a struggle. And, but that's our mission. You know, we got him for a reason. And that's, I look at it as we got him because we're strong enough to, to handle it. And that's, I don't know how else you do look at it. I don't really know. And then, so as this is going on, was that one of the things that made you think about getting out of the Navy? Oh, yeah. So I didn't think about it while I was doing that. OIS.

C-Platune or doing my troop commander tour because I was just all in. But once I got back, like when that plane took off, when we landed in San Diego, when I took a breath, we realized I'm going to Buds. I see people guys running on the beach, you know, doing the, doing the buds thing. That's not why I came in. I came in to do the job. I'd done the job. Now I owe it to my family to let that pendulum go back and take care of them. So it was very obvious to me. It wasn't like, it wasn't something I struggled with. I think a lot of guys like, should I get to stay in? Should I get out with my hard time with that transition mine was not difficult neither was the decision to get out because I was handed my next mission really we just didn't care of the family and especially

our middle child so in that respect my transition easy is the wrong word but I knew what I needed to do the decision was clear yep there was no no wavering and then you knew from your previous from your childhood that the job you were going to take, the job you were going to go after, after you retired, was going to be a writer. Yep. Yep. And of course you can't say that,

especially at that time in the SEAL teams. Like, you know, the, the Mnodin stuff is going on and all that. So that's when I played very close to the chest, I'd say, to the best. So I knew what I wanted to do my whole life. But I didn't think about it while I was in the teams. It was just like, that's what I'm going to do next. That's the amount of thought I put into writing when I was in the teams. but everything that I read growing up was part of that education.

All the reading nonfiction that I did on insurgencies and terrorism, all that fed into it and all the personal experience downrange. So it's almost like I could not be more prepared for what I'm doing now as a writer. But I didn't, during those last couple of years, I was just like, okay, ops OUDs, then to junior officer training course, OIC, which was great, but it was only for a couple months. But I love that because you get to pass on. some lessons and then move on out. But that last year in the Navy, and I think I've heard you

talk about this before, and that you didn't do all these things that you're supposed to do when you get out. Like I had went into the, what are the taps, whatever that course is, it was awful. Like, I did all those things that you're supposed to do. I know. I heard you say that. I'm like, you could, how did you get out of that? Well, no one's going to tell you what's, I mean, you're big dude. You're not, no one's going to tell you you got to do this. But I went, I did that course, and I went to medical, and I went to dental, and I had all the signatures. and I got my paperwork in order. And that was like the whole last year in the Navy.

I had spine surgery. Had spine surgery in there last year. Yeah. So that was good. And so got all that taken care of. But it's during that time where I'm like, okay, my job is to get out of the Navy now. Well, now I'm going to start thinking about this writing thing. And that's when I wrote down about seven different ideas.

I put them on the table in front of me, like one page synopsis type things. And I chose the one that I thought would resonate with people the most. And that's that theme of revenge because that's that. that resonated with me as a kid, growing up, both in movies and books. And it's something that just resonates with people in general, is that theme for whatever reason. So I knew the first book would be, that would be the theme of the first novel. And then when did you start actually writing it?

During that last year. So, yeah, outline, synopsis, started writing, title came really quickly, all that sort of thing. But then submitted it. So I got out summer of 20. 2016 was my retirement and submitted it to Simon & Schuster in the fall of 2016. And I got very lucky, very, very lucky in that a friend calls me out of the blue and he says, hey, do you know this author Brad Thor? I said, oh, yeah, of course I know him.

And he said, well, I know you're writing this book. Do you want to talk to him? Maybe he has some advice for you. And I said, well, he talked to me? And he said, let me set it up. Yeah, it's a former seal who's out in the finance world now. And they sat next to each other at some fundraiser or something. And so I get on the phone with this Brad Thor guy.

And he could not have been more generous with his time. It was kind of like an interview. It was kind of like a why do you want to write type thing. That was the underlying kind of theme of our conversation. And I think he wanted to make sure I was doing it for the right reasons. And I told him the truth about my mom being a librarian and reading all this stuff growing up and all these authors I loved and wanting to do this forever. And he's like, all right, I'm not going to help you as you go along. So don't send me chapters.

Don't ask me questions. But if you write a book, if you finish a book, I will let Simon choose to know that it's coming. Can't guarantee you they'll open it. Definitely can't guarantee that they'll like it if they read it. But as a thank you, your friend told me some of the things you did in the teams and as a thank you for that, I will let them know it's coming. And I'm like, Roger that. And he said, what are you going to be done? I said one year from today and call them back one year to the day later. And I was like, do you remember me? And he sure did. And I said, it's done. And he said, well, is it done? He says the best it can possibly be. I was like, well,

nope, nope, I can still work on it a little more, but it's done. He said, well, call me back when it's the best that it can possibly be. And I said, Roger that. So I took another four months of reading, editing, rewriting, getting it to, you know, if you've helped onto it for 10 years, you could probably make it better by degree. But, I mean, it was at that stage where it was ready for another set of eyes. And called them back four months later. And he said, okay, I'll let my editor know it's coming and shipped it off. And she read it. Next thing you know, I'm going to plane to New York and we're having coffee and I think you wanted to make sure I wasn't a crazy person. And she said, hey, I want this thing, but you need an agent. And I'm like, well, how do you get one of

those? And so she introduced me to four agents and then I chose one. Next thing, you know, we're off to the races. So I got very lucky. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. It does take a little bit of luck. How do you, how do you actually mechanically write? Like, what do you actually do? Yep. So all those seven different synopsis that I had ahead of time, where I picked the one, one, now all those other ones are turning in to these next novels, even though I might have different characters or whatever. I can morph those ones. So I have about seven different novels in the pipe ready to go.

So start with that idea, the synopsis, like a one page or two-pager, then an outline. And then as I write, I fill in that outline because new things, new ideas come up, new chapters, new characters. And I added to that outline. And it was in Word up until very recently. And so I'd have a visual representation. What did you switch to from Word? To Scribner.

Okay. Which I'll get to here in a second. Game changing. So yeah, in words, you're scrolling, copying and pasting, moving chapters around,

and then, you know, because I don't want to cut and then have it disappear because I'm nervous. Is it backed up? Oh, my God.

So, so yeah, so I'm filling that out. Exactly. Don't want to cut and paste. I want to copy it. Just in case. Just in case.

The power goes out at that moment. Exactly. Something. I hit the wrong thing and it's gone. So, yeah, I fill in that outline until I'd say about 75%

and then it becomes not as efficient for me to continue to just have an outline that's now very complete. Now I can just transition to just the story about that point. But yeah, recently I found out about this thing Scrivener, and it's set up very much like Word, but it's broken down by chapter. So you can drag and drop chapters and see how it looks. You can have each one of those chapters have a synopsis, so it shows up as essentially like a card or a yellow sticky. And you're looking at this whole thing and think, oh, you know, what chapter six should really be chapter three drag drop and you can move in research so you can drag

in articles from online pictures video into research folders so it's all right there instead of like what file was that did i copy you are like a day late and uh eight bucks too late for me at this point seriously like that sounds like brilliant yeah and i could so use that and i just finished my eighth book Nice. So that sucks. Yeah. Well, for nine.

Yeah, yeah. For nine, which I started yesterday. Yep. And you can import from Word. So I had about half of the, oh,

okay. You import from Word, and it breaks it into chapters. You just put an icon and let it know whatever that little symbol is, where you want the chapter breaks. And then can you export it back to Word?

And I haven't done that yet. So I will be doing that in the next couple weeks for book three. But I have not actually, I've imported from Word. I have not exported. So you can. You can. Yep, they say you can in the tutorial video and they show you how, but I have not yet done that.

Check. Yeah. Yeah, I'm all over it. Because my editor likes it and word. Before we nerd out too hard on this, we'll move on to something else. Yeah. And where did you, I mean, what did you do with your family once you retired? Because you had the mission of your kid and your kids.

You had the mission now that you've got to finish this book. Did you finish that book while you were still active duty? Nope. No, no. So I finished it. just four months afterwards. So you set yourself up financially somewhat that you were in a survivable scenario

even without alternate income besides your retirement? I had other businesses. You had some other little side things going on to give you enough money to float this gig. Yep, I have an operation in Hawaii, a hunting operation out there with a couple other partners. Every so often someone would ask me to do some speaking or whatever,

that sort of thing. Did some tactical training. Little things like that. But I was set up, to be able to move into this financially. And then where did you, where did you move to? So we got out and we weren't planning on moving because our son, we thought, hey,

we have this support network built up now over the last six, seven years. It's here in San Diego and we can never move. We definitely can't go someplace where it's cold because he just lies down and just, anyway, it would be very difficult to take him to a place where it was rainy, where it was snowy, where you had to put extra clothes on him,

like that sort of thing. and then we go to Park City, Utah, the winter after I get out, and we took our son on vacation with us for the first time. And we started going to Park City during my last couple years when I'm not. So I built up a ton of leave. I never took leave until those last couple of years. Because those last couple of years, I'm like, well, I'm not taking guys downrange anymore. Let's start taking some leave.

We have all this on the books. So we'd go to Park City with a few friends from San Diego because it's easier to fly to Salt Lake and drive to Park City than it was to drive through bands of traffic. to get to a mammoth or Big Bear or whatever else. So we started doing that the last couple of years. And then we took our son on vacation with us. And we took someone with us to help.

So we had an extra set of hands. But we got there and we spent two weeks up in Park City. And we thought, you know what? We can do this. We're not tied to San Diego. We brought someone, yes. It was here full time. Yes.

But we did it. And that was like, that opened just a few doors for us that we didn't think were open to us ever. And while we were there, I opened this magazine and said, hey, look at this house around the corner here. Let's go check this thing out. So we drove around the corner, checked it out. I'm like, let's move.

And we decided right then and there to move. And got the house and six months later, we're there. And I think it helped to make a physical and psychological break with the military for me. Because I was in Coronado. And as the opposite of buds, I saw so many guys that couldn't let it go. And obviously, it's a huge part of who I am. It's in my novels and all that stuff is a huge part of me. but I saw guys that kept coming back to Buzz, kept calling me as the op, so, hey, can I get a tour?

I want to show somebody around. Hey, no problem. Come on in. You know, I've all about it. But I saw these couldn't let it go, going to all the charity events, going to the same bars, going to the same grocery stores, especially in Coronado. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think for me, it was healthy to say that was one chapter of my life. Obviously, a huge influence on me.

I wanted to do it my whole life. But now, now we're moving forward. And now there's a new chapter. And that's as an author. and that's taking care of my family and raising our kids to be good citizens and good people. And that's what I'm going to do next. And I think it just helped to not run into somebody at the grocery store from a platoon and say, oh, what are you doing?

Who's your CEO? What's, uh, you know, and all those sorts of same questions. Um, that just keeps that tie. So being able to say goodbye to San Diego and it was San Diego was great to us. Love San Diego. Love Coronado. But that was one part of our life and our new life is in the mountains, raising our kids in a ski town. And you're super stoked right now on that.

Yeah. Love it up there. Love it up there. And we got there. We drove, you know, we put at the U-Haul and we drove through the night and all that. And we get there, you know, 13 hours later because you're chugging along with this U-Haul

and we get to, we unload it. And the next day we go to the grocery store and we look around and we're like, man, people in Park City are in good shape. Like, we thought we were in pretty good shape in San Diego. Like, these people are insane in Park City. It just draws these people that want to raise their kids in ski towns.

Usually they've done something somewhere else where they, you know, whatever. They can live there. And they're really into being in shape and being the best people physically, mentally, spiritually, whatever, just being the best, most efficient people they can be. And luckily I had some friends up there already. And this insane group of guys that works out in the morning, we wake up at five. And once again, that pendulum, this last few months has been on the writing.

But when I first got there, I start working out with these guys that I knew from before. And Hopi Darling is kind of the lead of that. He used to be the CEO of Skull Candy. And I know he has a bunch of other ventures, but this guy is in insane shape. And he's there every morning at 5.30 with some crazy workout. Like, picture your hardest CrossFit workout and then times it by three or four, had some trail running.

It's crazy. And so I showed up with these guys, and they're awesome. But they're all about just human potential, I think is the best way to put it, and maximizing that potential, whether it's your family, whether it's in business, personally, whatever, just and stand up to date on the latest and the greatest and testing things out. They're an amazing group of people.

So I'm very fortunate to get to work out and spend time with them because all high performers, we all push each other. And even though I'm not the fastest day, more certainly not the strongest, especially with this crew, it's cool to get out there and then just be, you know, just be together. That a cool team. Awesome. Well, I mean, it looks like we're at a pretty good, that gets us to today. you know where you're at probably a good place to wrap the books tell us just a little bit

about the books what do we need to know about book one book two yeah so the first one's the terminal list which I didn't say it out loud for about for the first year I was working on it and I said it out loud for the first time there's two Ls next to each other and I said it for the first time I was like dang it like it's a tough one to say the terminal list but at its base level it is a story of revenge without constraint and that's what I wanted to explore. And I think it was an adored a Team 5 ops 1997. I saw there.

Somebody had someone Xeroxed, copied a thing from the brand new internet that had a picture of a samurai on it. And it said something about a samurai going into battle thinking they were already dead. And, you know, I went back and looked at all my old Bushudo books from high school and college. And I thought, oh, wow, they did that because they thought it made them more effective and efficient warriors. they're going into battle already dead. And I thought, how do you do that with a modern warrior? How do you do that with someone that has a background similar to mine so I can explore these feelings and emotions behind different experiences

that I had downrange in a completely fictional sense? But how do I make him already dead? And then I thought about the church hearings in the late 70s and how the government had tested certain drugs on our nation soldiers, on mental institutions, college students, without any review, any sort of structure in place with how that's going to go down. And things changed after that.

And I thought, well, what if somebody didn't get that memo? What if there was something they wanted to test out? They wanted to test it out on some of our nation's most elite soldiers. And then something goes wrong. So how do I free this guy up to think he's already dead and to come back and have to use the tactics, techniques, and procedures of the enemy on home soil? So essentially, I wanted someone that thought they were already dead that now gets to bring what was so effective against us in Iraq and Afghanistan to home soil as he works his way up a list,

putting the bad guys in the ground one by one. So that's really what the first one's about. And then if you dig a little deeper into it, more like psychological wise, I guess, it's about a veteran that comes home and brings the wars from Iraq and Afghanistan home to people that have been sending young men and women to their deaths for close, well, coming up on 20 years now pretty soon. So you can read it like that too, but that's deep. That's deep. Yeah, and where'd you pick up with a true believer?

So that's a continuation of the story. So in high school I saw it was on PBS, and it was a special with Bill Moyers. And he had an interview with a guy named Joseph Campbell, who wrote a book called The Power of Myth and the hero with a thousand faces. And I was fascinated by it because, well, I already wanted to write one day.

And I remember they talked about George Lucas being influenced by this for Star Wars. and kind of the samurai aspect of different things, and then how across culture, the hero's journey is similar, very similar for the cultures that had never touched each other before. Yeah, China, Native American Indian, Africa, Northern Europe, they all had this similar journey. And usually it's a reluctant hero that goes on a journey,

emerges transformed at the end of that journey. So that was a big influence. So in writing these, you have to call Mikey and the Dragons. I was just reading that to my kid the other night. night. And yeah, so he has to go, you had to go into the cave and you have to emerge, transformed. But how do you do that with one book and how do you make that overarching a series as well? So there's two things I think about as I'm writing. I think about that hero's journey in the context of one singular story and then over what I hope will be a long-term series.

So that's what I'm thinking about as I write these things. And then true believers, the continuation of that story. But it was inspired by somebody I met in Iraq in 2006. And I thought, if I made this interaction and what I heard through the grapevine later, what if I made this a lot more interesting and fictionalized it? And so that's where the second one picks up. And it's really a story of redemption and still taking the emotions and the feelings behind certain things that happened downrange, but also now exploring what that transition was like because the hero here in the story, James Reese has to go through a transformative journey. And the second one's all about redemption. And when does when does true believer come out? July 30th. July 30th. That comes out.

The terminal list is out right now. It is out. Yeah, the second one should have come out, April 2nd, but the Department of Defense took seven months to do a 30-day review. I just wanted to make sure I was honoring my former security clearances by submitting it to the Department of Defense. And you just leave the stuff that they tell you to take out or the stuff that they tell you to redact, you just black it out. I just black it out. I didn't know if I write around it. Am I still Is that enough? You did that in the tournament list too. When you sent it to me, you gave me a heads up.

You said, hey, I just blacked things out. And, you know, obviously my books have been, well, not my kid's books, but my other books have been through the Pentagon Review. And they tell you that could remove certain things. And we would remove it and change it so it's acceptable to them. But you just blacked it out straight up. It left it blacked out. Yeah.

Because I was worried like, if I write around this and then I publish it and then when they come back and say, oh, you didn't quite write around that enough. Did you do that just to be cool, kind of? And it also has little authenticity. helps with the marketing. And it's like, I mean, I was looking through it and looking at like what, and I can, I can figure out a lot of them. I go, oh, they didn't want them to say that.

Oh, they didn't want them to say that. So it's pretty cool. But you can still, I mean, obviously you can still understand all the context around it. You just don't know a certain, like, specific term or a certain specific location or a certain specific name. But yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Pretty cool that you left it in there.

And the books are available everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. Everybody in audio. People love the audio. Ray Porter does the audio. He's an awesome. He was up for audiobook of the year

this year. So we're in New York and it's up there. Well, I texted you because you're up there for audio book. You know, you're in your, in your category. So I was texting you.

I took a picture of the screen and everything. But it was cool. It was cool. It was cool. Like I was like, dang. That was pretty cool.

That was pretty cool. You, to find you, you got your website, which is official jackcar. That's it. Because you didn't buy the URL. Jack car early enough. I think an insurance guy has it in Nebraska or something. Some guys holding it for hostage and you're never going to get it. Yeah. Well, maybe you will.

Never say never. Yeah. So that's yeah, that's a and that's one that people want to geek out a little more on the weapons, the knives, that sort of thing. The website go deep dives into a lot more of that stuff than the books. Because you get your nerd on. Yeah. You get your weapons nerd on. You're like you bring the librarian of your mom to the to the to the, to the, to the nerd on. Yeah. You get your nerd on. You get your weapons nerd on. You're like, you're like, you're like, you bring the librarian of your mom to the damn jack car weapons scene that's it that's it so it's on there and then on the socials which i am very new to i'm about a year and a half into this now is uh jack car u s a on the socials and there is a facebook but uh three was just too much like so somebody else just copies and paste things uh into there but uh on instagram and twitter jack car usa and those are the ones

I interact with people. You're interacting in the game. That's it. I'm in on those, but three was just too daunting. Just good. I knew it. Nope. Nope. No, prioritize. All three. It's next level. I'm crazy like that. That's how it's super motivated I am. I get it. I get it. I'm on three social media platforms. Kill me now. You know, usually I have a, every now and again, I have a hard time going to sleep. My mind's racing. I'm thinking about all these things, thinking about storyline, solving problems on the written page here aggressively like I used to do on the battlefield. But usually I don't have a problem staying asleep once I get there this morning up 307 a.m.

And I'm like, dang. And I took a picture of it for you. So I'm like, dang. Did you post it? No, no, D-Day today. So I didn't, you know, I think that would be. So I kept my D-Day post on point. But I will, I will post it.

D-day. Awesome. Yeah. So I think that's a good place to wrap. You know, Echo. Jack was just talking about. fitness if you're talking about being prepared opened up talking about being a true believer that knows the cause yeah you know what do you know about you know sort of that

cause being on the path believing in it truly yeah fully I do want to comment on how you blacked out the the classified parts of your book it's kind of like in the movies right or when they want to you know they show movies on HBO or in the cinema whatever it's all good they put on USA or one of these, you know, networks. They got to edit it, right, edited for television. So there's three ways they do it in the movies. They either just take out the whole scene, which is like what they do with books, right?

Sometimes, like... I guess they could, yeah. Usually change it. Yes. Which they do that in movies too. In the movie version, yeah? They have a dubbed voiceover for the swearing. Yeah.

And every once in all, you have a movie with an actual different scene. Yeah. Like if you watch trading places or something on you, they have actual different scenes that they redid. Then the third is the blackout version, what you did, which they just blank it out. So if they're swearing, he'll be like, what the, and the mouth will show it, but they just won't have the audio, right? To me, that's the best way to do it because it keeps you in the story. You're like, okay, he swore right there. I get it.

You can't swear on this network or whatever. But in my opinion, this, the blackout, the physical, like I just saw it in there, it's physically blacked out, right? Anti-highlighted, low-lighted fuel. It gives it the mystique. Yeah. Kind of like there's something hidden under here that's classified that you can't know about. So classified. You can't know about, you can't even know about it.

Even that it's fiction, which is even a level up, like a half level up even from there. Yeah, yeah. That's what I think. They're redacting fiction. Yeah. What does that mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And I noticed you laughed when he said like secret because you and I both know what gets redacted. Yeah. Ridiculous. And it's not really all that. I know. I don't want to build it up. much. So what we talk about, I always want to make sure. Let's leave it where it was. We'll edit this out.

It's so top secret. So the first one, I didn't appeal. So you have a year to appeal these things. And I didn't do it at the first one because I didn't have enough money. So second one though, they took out a lot more in this second one. And I'm appealing this one. So and what you do for the appeal is you find the information on government websites. You can't just go to Wikipedia, whatever else. But on actual government websites in congressional testimony,

testimony out there via the government. So we're appealing this one and almost everything in there except for one little phrase. We found it on government website. So we're appealing so that if the paperback comes out in this, now you can see what the government didn't want you to see. But it's, I don't want to build it up too much because it's really. Yeah. It's not as cool as it sounds. No, but one thing that they took out was so surprising is I made up. So I made up a location because I'd been there before I came in the one in the military. So I used it as a location in the novel because it made sense where it starts, second one, it kind of starts in Africa and then it goes up here and goes into whatever.

But I'm like, this would be a good place for kind of the cave. Got to go there and change, got to transform. And so I just made it up because I'd been there. I could describe the rocks. I could describe the mountains. I could describe the architecture. So I put it in there. They blacked it all out.

And I totally made up. They blacked it all out. But they left in by accident. the capital of that country. So I blacked it out for them. Knowing the intent, knowing their intent, I took it out for them. But they missed that. They took out the type of architecture.

They took out the mountains. They took out any reference to the country, which is so strange. But they left in by accident the capital. So you know what that means, right? Yeah, exactly. That means somebody else was up in that cave getting their wee transformation going on. Yep. Exactly.

Truth is stranger than fiction. Yeah. But that's good. That's another selling point in a way when you can say, like I'm revealing in this book what the government didn't want you to see. Factually. Yeah. Exactly.

So the paperback. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. Cool, man. Well, one day, what, did you revisit Jiu-Jitsu or what? I mean, I're doing these hard exercises. I'm not about to take heavies right now.

I know, I know. So I dabbled through the years. But essentially what I did open-tel 95, that's really my base. And I got to, obviously, I shoot them up, not obviously. So I shoot all it. time, stay in shape, that sort of thing. But the jiu-jitsu is wherever I am right now. That is where my martial ground fighting skills are going to remain. Wait, wait, why are you committing to that right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The spine, well, like the spine surgery. Two, just time-wise and

knowing where my focus needs to be right now. What do you think is worse for your spine? Clean and jerks or grappling? Clean and jerks. I'm going to have to agree. I love cleaning jerks. I don't I don't actually think cleaners jerks are bad for your spine. I think they're good for your spine. But grappling. You actually, this is to delve into how you get your information for your little books, right? Oh yeah.

You sent me a text, whatever, like, two years ago, hey, if a guy was in Virginia wanted to train with like the best on the East Coast, where would he go and train? Yep. You sent me that text. I'm like, send him to Henz O'Gracy. You sure did. You got right back to me.

I appreciate it. And it went right in the book. That's the easiest research you've ever done. Oh, it's great. Text Jocko. Perfect. Yep, and it made it right in the book

and then I moved on. Bro, I feel bad when people text me and I don't text them back like right away. Oh, really? So you must feel real bad with me then. Well, yeah, I do. The whole right-of-way thing is real foreign to me. But sometimes it just doesn't, like,

getting a lot of texts. And like, you got to sit there and, you know, but I try and text people back eventually. Or you might need to hit me with a little reminder. You'll follow up. Yeah, man. I dig it. Well, hey.

Well, doing Jiu-Jitsu and peaking at 95, staying there is better than not picking Jiu-Jitsu and not people at all. The kids were in it. Yep, right away. Daughter in it from maybe age four. Oh, just in the game right now. In Park City, she's not. Yeah.

So now that we're in. See, this is where we need to talk. Yeah. So she's into snowboarding now in tennis. So she turned 13. That's cool at everything. I think age 11 or maybe 12. 11, I think she might have stopped.

She kind of, yeah. It's tough. That was tough. Is there Jiu-Jitsu in Park City? I know there's full-on Jih Tijuana in Utah. You got Pedro Sauer up there. You got all kinds of good J-J-J-Ti-T people up in Salt Lake City. Yeah, for sure.

Yep, no, we sure do. And there's one. I think Pedro Sauer has, I think, a little off-site in Park City, maybe he did. So, of course, we checked it out before the move. They've moved since, so I haven't followed where they moved to, but I think there's one still there. But because it was important to me, because at the time we moved, my daughter was still in it. Our little guy was in it, our eight-year-old, now eight-year-old. So it was important to me that there was jiu-jitsu where we were moving.

But now that we moved, we get there, and it's gone. It's just like an empty space. So I think it's still there somewhere, but the kids, you know, they're doing their things, unfortunately. Yeah, there's a lot to do, lots to do up there. But, you know, I dabbled over the years. I was still doing it while I was an opso or an XO before I got out in Coronado because it was right there. I'd go at lunch and roll with some guys. I'll do some research.

I'll figure out where we can get you. get you and your family back in the game up in Park City. Because I personally feel like guilty to have your family not training, to have you not training. Yeah, me too. We need to get that squared away. I know. You're taking some extreme ownership right there.

Jack Carr. You're taking some extreme ownership of that. Reese needs to be getting in the game. Yeah, and the stories. You know, the fictionalized, yeah, James Reese is on it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He's in his jihitsu. But you've got to get, you know, you talk about transferring those emotions, right?

Yeah. From real world. I remember how, I remember what it feels like to get. it just throwing around the mat, the floor wiped, you know. I was worried, that's why I didn't tell you I was coming in last night. Yeah, I noticed I didn't get that.

I didn't, I was worried that I'd be up at three-something getting just destroyed on the mat in here. Yeah. Well, Justin. Yeah, so, you know, either way. That knee is rapidly approaching. Yeah, and it's been rapidly approaching for a long time. Status.

All good, and we're going to look forward to that. So, back jujitsu, when you get back in New Jitsu, you're going to need a ghee. Or if you're getting into jujitsu for the first time, you're going to need a ghee. Do ghee, no, gee, do both. That's the best. 100% by the way. Especially if you're in Park City, Utah.

If you get in a fighting in Park City, Utah, the other person is almost guaranteed to be wearing a ghee type outfit. Yeah, that's true. Straight up wearing a jacket. Good point. Straight up wearing a North Face parka, right? Just Patagonia, boom. It's very possible. You have a lapel on a Patagonia jacket?

Yeah, let's get some of that. What's the Patagonia jacket? It's like a parka. This is another, I'd explain to him what a parka was on one podcast. Wow. He's from Hawaii. Wow. Yeah, I don't know.

I never heard of that. But nonetheless, sounds nice. Sounds good. Similar to a ghee, good. All right. We're going to do ghee. What kind of ghee we're going to get? Do you know?

I know. Origin. Origin. There's only one. Best one in the world. Why would you not get the best one in the world? There's no reason. percent get the best one in the world is it is it because the best one cost five times more than the not best one no or is it all the same no same same cost well you can choose you can grab the the big deluxe uh what do you call what's the word you always do you use not always but premium oh no luxurious I think it was luxurious unless you can grab that one if you want good good up to you origin keys have various uh what do you call like options of keys all made in America though by the way speaking of made in America you can you can't

other clothes made in America, namely t-shirts, yeah, sure, but also sweatshirts, yeah, and also newest, latest jeans. Which I have some on the way, by the way. I'm happy to announce, finally, B. Little, we teamed up. We teamed up. You had to just flank and a secondary group, me and B. Little, Brian Littlefield. And, you know, we're tight. We're in the game, whatever, right?

But we're always last to get the cool. stuff. Jocko always first. Pete always first, right? Us always we're not even second. We're not even third. We're last every time. Unless we banded together and now I have a pair origin jeans made in America American denim jeans on the way to me. So nice. Happy to announce that one to everyone. Also rash guards of course other jujitsu stuff. So also supplements. The most important kind of supplements. Boom joints keep you in the game protein keep you in the game. It's delicious by the way. Is jaco white tea? Is jaco white tea? supplement yes because yeah because it has to be a supplement because what else would

give you an 8,000 pound deadlift yeah you're you're absolutely right nothing and it's certified organic so the whole Wada thing no how'd you like your first jocco white tea I love it yep I couldn't do the podcast without having one so people some people don't it's not sweet you know there's no sugar in there nope it's just tea it's great but it tastes but it has the pomegranate little fruitness to it a little bit keeps you one and more It makes you want more. No, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan.

I'm not to get some of this in Park City. And then go write. Because whenever I write, that's guaranteed. That's guaranteed like at least 300 words coming out of you live. Easy, smooth. Just running it off your fingertips. I like it.

I like it. Into the computer. I've got my marching orders. Also discipline, by the way, speaking of writing. Oh, that's a good one. I found, and I don't write as much as you.

You might not have known that. But I make these videos every once in a while. If you're on the discipline, videos are awesome. Even that kind of comes a lot easier. Boom, when you're doing it. My favorite one,

we lie to ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, that is a good one. That is a good one. Yeah. Accurate representation of yourself. Yeah. Can't grow.

Otherwise, it's true. It's absolutely true. But yeah, discipline, that's a good one. And discipline, go. If you'd want to, you know, mix it up and do all that stuff. If you're on the go, essentially, right? That's the way it goes. Just hit some of the way.

And then you get milk. And then you just go. You get mulk, which is additional protein for your life. Because we all know we're eating steak. We're eating chicken. Some people are eating sushi. Yes, sir. We are.

A lot of sushi. That all gives you protein, which is good. Sometimes you need a little bit more. Or sometimes you just want it dessert. Desert straight up. Have you tried the... I have not yet. Looking forward to it, though.

Just, it's ridiculous. You ever had a Nestle's strawberry quick? Yes, it's been a long time. Did you like it? I was, yes. I like the chocolate one, I think, though. Okay, do you like the chocolate better? That's cool.

Some people I like that. Remember, I tried them both, but I go back to the chocolate. Yeah. The strawberry slayer mulk tastes absolutely delicious. I mean, we have warrior kid milk. So for your kids, yeah. It's totally good to go. I keep meaning to get that too because our kids, man, they do not.

Anyway, yeah, yeah, because your kids want to eat cake. They want to drink Nestle's quick. Oh, yeah. because it's tasty. They don't have to do that. They can get protein probiotics. They can get no sugar. Yeah.

What's up? And it tastes delicious. All right, cool, cool. So there's that. Warrior Kid, Mulk. Mulk. And then if you want like this shirt that Echo's wearing, this good shirt, then you can go to our store, collectively, everyone's.

This is not your, no, because you keep calling it my store. It's not my store. What has your name in it? Yeah, no, but everybody goes there. It's not just me in the store by myself. The store is for everyone. Yep, that is true. It's not your store, it's not my store.

It's our store collectively as a group. Is it Jack Carr store, too? Yeah, absolutely. Damn right, huh? Anytime. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So that is at jocco store.com.

If you want to represent on this path, right, discipline, the good mentality, right? Looking for the good in the bad, quote unquote, bad. You know, whatever. You want to represent, Column, that's where you get your stuff. Speaking of which, you were talking Jock White, T, I don't know if you saw this, Tam, Tom, Clant. fan that you are. Did you see that in the latest Tom Clancy novel? The Jack Ryan,

you know what he drinks? Oh, I saw this. Yeah. I didn't read it, but I saw it. Somebody posted about it. I took a picture and put it up there. Yeah. Jocka white tea. I saw that. Yep. Jack Ryan's in the game. We're wondering what James Reese is going to be drinking in book three. You're going to have to stand by and find out. Yeah, what is he's going to be wearing. I know what is he's going to be wearing. Yeah, well, he's definitely we know he's going to be wearing. Like the Warrior Kid 3 book. You know what? You know what he's being worn?

Origin. Nice. Yeah. Right. Boom. There you go. So, yeah, everybody's representing. So yeah, you want to represent, even if you're already representing, you want to

re-represent and represent more. Jocco store. I come. Boom. Hiddy's, t-shirts, ratch cards, hats, everything, patches, everything. Subscribe to this podcast so you can hear Jack Carr and others talking about their experiences. And then leave reviews so that I can laugh at your funny reviews. Or be like,

You ever head nod to your computer? Like, you're looking at your computer, you read, you read a solid review, and you just give that review a little head nod. Like, actually nod. A little head nod for that thing. Like somebody wrote a damn good review the other day, and I read it and I was like, you know, gave him one of those. Physical movement at my computer.

It's 11 o'clock at night. What am I doing, reading reviews, trying to go to sleep. You're talking about how you've no problem going to sleep? Sometimes I do. I have some trouble going to sleep. Well, I have trouble going to sleep. If not wait, it's, it's trouble waking up. Oh.

Yeah. Oh, you have trouble waking up? Yeah. I mean, I'd rather sleep in. Oh, okay. But I do get up, well, that 5 a.m. It comes quick. Yeah.

At 5 a.m. Not at 3 a.m. Like you, but 5 a.m. Meet the guys at 5.30. Knock it out. Home at 7. Help with the kids. Then start writing.

Yeah, no, that's solid right there. If you remind, we'll get some stuff for your crew up there. Nice. Get them in the game. Awesome. Yeah. Absolutely. The head nod, that's like level one, like,

like what do you call like there's base level respect right there's extra respect and then there's the ceiling above the ceiling there's level one respect when your physical head nods for computer yeah level two claps claps for you see what I'm saying you clap for the for the performer no but that's that's different bro no no I would never in a million years clap at my computer I know because I don't think I don't know that's a bro that's level two but someone's gonna come up with it like a review or something and it'll warrant a clap that's that's my contention. Okay.

Yeah. Cool. I had a good one. I nodded yesterday. Did a little head nod. Yeah. Your computer. Yeah.

Somebody wrote, uh, Jack Carr has a graduate degree in the art of war. Oh. Yeah. I liked it. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look at you.

Racking them up. Yeah. Someone else wrote one about it. If John Wick, the Punisher and somebody else had a child, it would be James Reese. I'm like, yeah. It's going. Yeah. Yeah.

Check this out. Head not worthy 100%. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah. Subscribe.

If you're into it. And you want to write a review, do it. Also, don't forget about worry a kid podcast, which is not dead. No. It's being resurrected. Well, it was never dead, so it's not resurrected. No. Yeah, yeah.

It is alive and well. However, there hasn't been a lot of new additions lately, but they're coming. They're coming. Boom. There you go. I was mentally going through possibilities for the next story from Uncle Jake. Right. So, yeah.

So the pendulum was just away. Yeah, yeah, the pendulum's away from Warrior Kid podcast. Yeah. Actually, now that book eight is almost wrapped, that's what the, that's what the Prioritize and Execute is on. I was just going to say it. You beat me too. I was waiting to get in there with Prioritinize and Execute.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yep. So that's a Warrior Kid podcast. And if you want to support a Warrior Kid, then you can get some Jocco soap. Warrior Kid soap from Irish Oaks, Range. com young aiden or your kid making soap and don't forget about YouTube channel

don't forget to like subscribe and click Brad what are they supposed to say that what do they say I think they say like subscribing no wait yeah something there's some other thing that you're supposed to do yeah if you're that okay so anyways check up the YouTube channel yeah that's it yeah yeah so if you want to do those things whatever and that's where you can get echoes echoes videos videos that he spends allegedly so much time making and they come out once every every four years like the Olympics

like the Winter Olympics in Park City Every four years a good video is going to come out Whatever Jack Kerr likes him so boom I do I reposted that one Reboasted we lie to ourselves Boom there you go see thanks thanks for that by the way Also psychological warfare Go ahead no I'm giving it to you

I put your name there psychological warfare If you don't know what that is this is what it is It's an album with tracks. Jocko tracks. Anyway, on those tracks, he tells you how to get through moments of weakness. Like if you're about to eat the wrong thing. Because for the short term. Because the short game, long game.

I think I need to listen to this. Bro, yeah. And it 100% works, by the way. So if you're like, okay, I'm going to, in life, this is what I learned. It's one of the biggest things. People ask me this all the time. I would say literally anyone who has questions, quote unquote, for me, this is one of the questions they'll ask. What's the biggest thing you learn from Jocco?

I'll tell you right now. Here it is. if you look at things short term versus long term, small picture, big picture. Oh, and then there's like another one, whatever. But either way, it's all the same thing, short term. So in psychological warfare, if you're going short game, if you're going to start playing the short game for that moment, this will, this is going to lose the short game in the moment. Oh, I see what you're saying.

If you're going to take a short term path, that's going to have immediate gratification, but it's a long term down. Yes, exactly right. And most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time, short term, if you play short game, you lose the long game with that play. It's like you take a short-term step forward and take a long step back. It's one of those deals.

Usually you can break things down into that. So that's what this does. I'm getting that because I need to listen to that while I'm at Whole Foods and I'm getting up there ready to get to that register and they have those peanut butter cups. Oh. The all natural.

They throw all natural on them. Like, that's okay. Exactly. All natural. I'm like, it's better than that orange Reese's. I'm going with all natural. What else is all natural? You know, like it's the same thing.

What are we doing over here? Yeah, I just got to listen to that as I'm checking out. Brad, that's perfect, actually. Because actually it's good because you can actually have it in the queue, you know? Because a lot of times, like, you're just in the pantry or wherever you are. And you're like, boom, I'm looking for the good stuff. Whatever. Boom, I see the Oreos.

Bro, my... I can't just go, let me queue it up. Sometimes it gets hard, is what I'm saying. Bro, my son, okay, can drive now, right? Which means he can go to the store, which means he can shop for food, right? We're talking 16-year-old boy. What does he get at the store? Rees's just, we're talking.

Oh, he just gets crazy. He'll be like, I'm hungry going to the store. Comes home, what does he come home with? Half gallon of whatever ice cream. Makes sense. Because, you know, the supermarkets, they formulate or they design the store in the products a certain way. So like, boom, boom, that's why they put the Reese's peanut bar right at the checkout. They call them impulse buys, right?

And that goes for everything. Little magazines and balloons and all these little things. You know what that is? That's their psychological warfare. That's what it is. It's their psychological warfare. And you got to combat that with psychological warfare. With chocolate psychological warfare.

It's like they're flanking me. They're flanking me. Because I can avoid the aisle. From the beginning. Yeah, yeah. You can skip that whole snack aisle. You're not even going down there. But you've got to check out.

But you got to check out. And that's why they got them. That's your weakness, bro. They're so good. But that's what your boy is. essentially falling for when he goes in. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no.

You're not going up there on the impulse. It's his mission. He's going straight. He's leaving the house. He's leaving the house and he's thinking, you know, Briars. Yeah, yeah, gotcha. Okay. That's where he's at.

He's at. He goes and gets cakes. Like, you know, the plan is cakes. Because, you know, honestly, the ice cream thing has really taken a down hit at my house because milk, right? Because everyone's just kind of on the milk chain. Yeah, that makes sense.

But, my son will get straight up chocolate chip cookies. Just. That's what he did last night. That's why this is fresh in my mind. Comes home, nine o'clock, goes to the store at 840. Like, we already ate dinner. Okay, where are you going? I'm just going to go to the store.

And he's only thinking about one thing. He's not thinking about lettuce. He's not thinking about apples. He's thinking chocolate chip cookies coming back with the big chunks in them. Like the pre-made? Yeah. And then this evil little kid brings him into my house. You know what I mean?

It's a good way to get shanked, actually. You need some of that psychological warfare Yeah, he does Yeah, oh yeah Big time Yeah I probably get to that home all the time Hey if you want to go visual

Visual psychological warfare For yourself Check out flipsidecanvas com My brother Dakota Meyer Who's awesome Veteran

Marine Incredible guy Started this company Making art to hang on your wall And you can It says cool stuff on it like good like discipline equals freedom he's got a whole array of different stuff so check

that out flipside canvas.com and if you want him to make something tweet him yeah tweet to codemeyer say put this on a canvas he'll figure it out you make it happen so true also on it so you go to onet com slash jaco this is where you can get your kettlebells you're getting kettlebells you know on it oh yeah seen those kettlebells there before do you guys work out the home gym where you guys working out no no we go down it's really cool they have a full-on like crossfit set up at the gym and there's an indoor track. It's amazing. They had a pool right there, but it's a, it's full on like CrossFit-esque style thing and you can

go get it. And they leave you alone. Yep. I was in the gym the other day. And guess what? No, no, this is,

yeah, what gym? Yeah, this section. I'm not going to talk about it. Was it a hotel gym or? No, no. It was a proper gym.

Hey, it was a gym that had bumper plates. It was a gym that had six squat racks. No, four squat. No, six squat. I'm in this gym no chalk if they have bumpers they had kettle bells no chalk yeah they had pull-up bars no chalk that's weird that's a real problem I can see like a

you know hey if you're old kettle our fitness and you're got the the the universal machines or whatever that echoes out there to jamming on yeah yeah anyway nothing gets universal by the way but you know let's keep it real anyway on it kettle bells you see you know whatever yes so that That's where I get my kettlebells. Cettlebell routine in general is good. Do kettle bells? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. What, as far as your spine and whatever, and I was going to ask you earlier, but what does that, like, keep you from doing mainly? Well, I wake up, but it hurts all the time. But every time I turn my head and I realize just how lucky I am that after 20 years and all those things, like, that's all I have to deal with. So it's mobility, it hurts, whatever. What kind of surgery did you get?

But C6, C7 spine, they went in and. And no, the military wanted to fuse me, but luckily I got a second opinion and they went in and shaved off a bone spur in there that was crushing a nerve that was making my left arm. Was it like a frame monotomy? I don't think they've used that term. That's what I got. But I'd have to go back. C67. Yep.

C67. Got to go back in there. But every time it hurts, I'm just like, you know, there's guys out there for PTSD, TBI, missing arms and legs just destroyed. And this is all I have. Yep. Good to go. Yep. And seriously.

We'll take it all day long. Absolutely. So it doesn't really keep me from doing anything. It just reminds me. So I'm a reminder that I'm very lucky, very fortunate. So you can push it but just not get nuts and re-end great kind. I still got, you know, I try to keep up and anything I'm trying to take it easy on goes out the window. Right, right.

Yeah, right. Yeah, let's just roll it 20%. Yeah, yeah, let's roll. I remember those. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, not happening. So I remember. Well, yeah, good.

And kettlebells, right? Yeah. My point was you do kettlebells, you get that functional strength back or whatever. Boom. I mean, your back's not prohibiting. Boom, you're into kettlebells. Yep, absolutely. Almost every day when we're working out with the crew.

Well, yeah. So yeah, all my kettlebells, all on it, kettlebells. And we got some books. If you want books, if you like books, first of all, the Terminalist and True Believer by Jack Carr. Check those out. Get into the, I believe you just said, like the psychological minefield. Oh, I like it. Of this dude.

Yeah. Who's on the serious warpath already dead. Yep. Get some. Way the Warrior Kid 3 is out. It's live. And you can get that on Amazon.com. Where There's a Will is the subtitle of that book.

Find out what happens to Young Mark, how Uncle Jake helps them out. Way the Warrior Kid 1 and then Way the Warrior Kid 2, Mark's Mission. Those are also available. Mikey and the Dragons. You can get that one for any kid between the ages of 0 and 150. And they're going to get something out of it. The discipline equals freedom field manual get that. That's what you want to get your kid that just graduated.

That's what you want to get your employee that seems to be sliding off the track. That's what you want to get your friend. That is letting themselves go down the slippery slope. Yes. Taking the short term gratification on stuff. No, you get them the discipline equals freedom field manual. The audio version of that is on iTunes, Amazon music. It's an MP3 format.

Then there's extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership where you can take these lessons from combat. me and my brother Laif Babin wrote that book, those books, and how you can apply those lessons to your business, to your life. We got Eschalon Front Leadership Consultancy, and what we do is solve problems through leadership. We also have EF Online, where you can continue to train leadership

because you never master it. You never even really get good at it. You always have to be working at it. So EF Online, work at it. Work at it every day. What happens if you stop working out? Do you stay in shape? Echo Charles.

Negative. What happens if you stop trying to become a good leader? Same thing. You go backwards. Get rusty first. Beyond rusty. Yeah. We're talking catastrophic.

You just lose it. Yeah. We're talking you turn into a leadership slob. Yes. You don't want to be sharp. You want to be in tune. I experience this because I get to see it all the time with the companies we were like. I see someone that's like really in the game and they're.

Sharp. Their leadership is sharp. And then all of a sudden, they slack off for a while, and they have a leadership problem, and they handle it wrong. Right. Just like they couldn't max, they couldn't do 42 pull-ups like they could before.

Now they're doing 32, why they haven't been trained it. Got to keep your leadership brain sharp. You ever done 42 pull-ups? No, I think mine was 30-something was my best, I think. That's still good, man, 30-something. But in high school, when I was very light, I remember two sets of 20. I still remember that was my thing.

Came home on that bite. Like two sets of 20. That's what's interesting. That was getting ready for buds, essentially. That was high school. But so I still had a little time. So you still had time. I was still training.

What I was going to say is like, for me, getting ready for buds was I was like, bro, I did three sets of pull-ups today. Because we didn't know. I didn't think you had to do 250 pull-ups per workout. Right. 350 pull-ups per workout. I didn't think of that.

It didn't even make sense to me. Right. It was 1989, 1990. Wow. There was no way to access this information. No. So you know, we're going to be doing the same number of pull-ups as your class number. Yeah.

Yeah. How many? That's what we're going to do. Yeah. By the way, we're doing it tomorrow too. By the way, we're doing it after lunch. So get some of that. So that's the same thing.

Physical, mental. Get your leadership mindset, sharp. Keep it sharp. EF online. If you want to come to the muster, you better sign up now because they're all sold out. They all sell out very quickly. Chicago sold out. Denver's heading that way.

That's September 19th and 20th. and then Sydney, Australia, looking forward to that coming down and meeting y'all people in Australia again. If you want to come to that, Extreme Ownership.com and then EF. Overwatch, if you are looking for someone in your company that knows how to lead,

then check out EFoverwatch.com where we got special operators and we got combat aviation leaders that are transitioning into the civilian sector and can help you and your team using the principles of combat leadership that we write about in extreme ownership and the economy of leadership.

So, eFoverwatch.com. And if you want to hear more from us, if 500 hours of listening isn't enough than we are on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, Echo's at Echo Charles. I'm at Jockle Willink, and Jack is at Jack Car, USA. Echo, anything else?

Nothing else. Thank you, Jack Carr. Thank you, guys, so much for having. me on. It's a pleasure to be here. I feel very fortunate that getting out, we were able to kind of make the life we want on the outside, can defy a few odds along the way. And that's all because, because my wife, coming up on 19 years out there, this month. And, yeah, so because of her strength, raising those kids, allows away now I can tell about it a little bit, hopefully not mess it up, getting into her routine. But yeah, she's amazing, super strong, love with all my heart, my next, this next mission in life really is all about her and them.

That's awesome. Well, thanks once again for coming on. And obviously, thanks for your service to America. As with yours. You had an awesome, awesome run, and you were deployed over and over and over again. And even though we joke about, you know, what a good time it is, and we did have a good time. I know you had a good time, but at the same time, you know, you're making sacrifices, your family's, home alone and and that's huge. So thanks to you, thanks to your family, thanks to your wife for

having the strength to deal with that and appreciate you and it's awesome to see what you're doing right now. Thanks, brother. Appreciate it. To anyone else that's listening that is serving right now or has served, thanks to you for keeping us free and to police and to law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dims and Dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol and secret service and all the first responders that are out there 24 hours a day and They're training and they're preparing and they're on call So that we can be safe here at home. Thanks to all of you for that service and for that sacrifice And to everyone else that is

Listening. Remember that there's always somebody out there with their sights on you You and maybe it's a competitor in business. Maybe it's an enemy insurgent. Maybe it's some criminal thug. Maybe it's someone that's just looking to do harm to you or your family. Or maybe that someone is you. And maybe your own worst enemy. Sliding into the depths of complacency, allowing yourself to wander.

down the easy path say no to that remember why you're here remember what you want to do remember your cause be a true believer and then live that belief by getting up every day and getting after it and until next time this is jack car and echo and jocco