Jocko Podcast - 184: Getting Over Severe Abuse. How to Build Relationships as an Introvert. How to Control the "Cowboy" Mentality. Chronic Complainers.

Episode Date: July 3, 2019

0:00:00 - Opening 0:00:18 - How to build relationships being an introvert. 0:04:28 - How to lead a person with a "Cowboy" mentality or behavior. 0:14:29 - How to handle chronic complainers. 0:23:10 - Changing your mind on important issues. 0:35:58 - How do you detach when you're being personally attacked? 0:43:50 -What if you get fired after you take ownership of mistakes? 0:51:44 - Mistakes made in the past. 1:08:54 - Are you GETTING AFTER IT too hard? 1:34:24 - How to balance a dangerous job with protecting and providing for family. 1:42:55 - Getting over sexual abuse. 1:58:30 - SUPPORT: How to stay on THE PATH. 2:14:22 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 184 with Echo Charles and me Jocker Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. It's been a while since we've done some Q&A and there's been a lot of questions. So let's get into it. Ready, go. Into it. Okay.

Question number one, Jocko. I'm having issues playing the game, quote unquote, at work. I'm quiet and friendly, but I prefer to work hard rather than stand. out and talk I found I have trouble forming more personal connections with my boss and co-workers what are your tips so look when I talk about playing the game I'm not talking about the fact that you have to change your entire personality profile to start to connect with people that's not what I'm saying you don't have to go from being someone that's what they say quiet and friendly you don't have to become

some chatty extrovert running around making small talk with And on top of that, there's a little bit of a statement here that says, you know, I'd rather work hard as if there's, these are mutually exclusive things, which they are certainly not. So this being forming relationships with people and playing the game does not interfere with your work at all. I'm not saying that you sit around and talk when there's work to be done. But there's going to be natural breaks in whatever you're doing. to be moments where skip the action pauses and you get a chance to connect with somebody. So that's fine. So what are some tips that how would you do this?

So I thought about this of you want to start with something small, right? But you want to engage. This is the key point. I don't just want to throw something at you. I don't want to talk at you. And besides, when it's much easier just to let someone talk about themselves. So what my advice in this particular question is is to tell them something about yourself, like something minor about yourself, but then that kind of ties into something that you can ask them.

And then they can talk to you because most people like to talk about themselves. So you ask them a question about themselves. And then you go. So, you know, something, maybe something slightly related to work. So it's not just some random statement. that you're making, you know, you'd say, you know what, we did it yesterday at work here, reminded me of something, right?

It's reminded me of something else and then, maybe it reminded me of a movie. Hey, you know what we were doing yesterday? It reminded me of this movie. Have you seen that movie? Mm-hmm. And at least you're gonna get, well, no, because I don't watch a lot of movies.

Or no, I haven't seen that movie. Or, oh, I've seen that movie. If it's a popular movie, but chances are they've seen it, you know what I mean? And all of a sudden, you've got a little bit of a conversation going, and that's all we're looking for. We're not looking to turn into like chatty, catty.

We're just trying to build, build relationships with people. So you know who they are. So they know who you are. That's what we're talking about. Nothing crazy. Start small, build from there. Pretty straightforward.

Yeah, and through that building process, what I kind of found is one, and I guess maybe this is a little tactical thing you can kind of throw out whenever. But, you know, when people give you advice or they tell you something about themselves, that's something, I don't know, whatever, whatever the story is, right? And maybe some strategy they used to do X, Y, Z can be super small. If you let them know that you remembered, like in the future later on when you see me again, you say, I remembered what you said last week, you know? Just tie in this.

Yeah. And just say, oh, it can be the smallest little. That purple belt, jihitsu, mental jiu jihitsu. I like it. It can be the smallest thing. And it just makes you feel good. So that person will just essentially feel more open with you. Like, oh my gosh, I'm kind of like a little mentor.

This guy really pays attention to me. Oh, yeah. Makes him feel valuable, all that stuff. Just on that small level, you know. So as far as building little relationships, I'd say that's a cool thing to kind of remember to do if he can. I'd say that's a cool kind of thing to remember too. All right. There you go.

There you go. Approved. Nice to go. Next question. may I ask your advice for addressing a cowboy, quote unquote, mentality among teams working in dangerous environments? How would you shift the culture to kill complacency to aggressively identify and mitigate risk as a point of professional pride? Okay. This is something that we'll definitely saw it in the SEAL team.

See it all the time in the civilian sector, you know, construction companies, power companies, companies where people are doing dangerous work, right? Policing fire fighting anything anything that has any element of danger you you definitely see this and and like I said certainly so on the seal team And the answer to this is a common answer for many leadership situations is you have to explain Why so let me put it into a little context What you have to do is you have to say hey let me explain to you what happens when someone gets hurt or injured on this job Okay first of all we get the loss of that person on the job The job that we're working on the project that we're working on the project that we're working

on it falls back there's paperwork that has to be filed which by the way the paperwork hurts the progress of our project as well our budgets impacted because now we got to bring someone else on board we got to train them we take a reputational hit as a company right what what kind of a what kind of a company can't do a job without getting someone hurt right I mean this isn't a high bar it's not a very high bar to say hey can you complete this task without getting someone injured Yeah, and all of a sudden we got a we got a hey, you know what our company? We don't we get a lot of people hurt well, what does that tell you about the company?

It's a reputational hit. Who are you going to hire? You're not going to hire the one that's got people getting hurt all the time. So there's that. And what does that do? What does that do to your reputation in terms of everything else? Because if you're getting a bunch of people hurt, how can I expect you to keep your timelines? How can they expect you to stay on budget?

So it's those things. It's those, that kind of reputation. that you get if you are getting people hurt. And then also, what does it do, what does it say about your team if you got people getting hurt? And again, this is, what I'm talking about is a conversation that you're having with the group,

with the team. You're saying, look, what kind of a team are we if we got people getting hurt? What does that say about us? It says we're lack sedesical. It says we're complacent. It says we don't pay attention. What does it say about our leadership?

If we got guys getting heard, what does that say about our leadership? Says we don't care about our people, which by the way, It says we don't care about our people. It says we don't care about our job. It says we don't care about our reputation. It says we just don't damn care.

And what does it say about you, the individual? You know what it says about you an individual? If you get hurt, you know what it says about you? You're a knucklehead and you got hurt. You couldn't follow the procedures. You didn't follow the procedures. You thought you were smart and you got complacent. Now you got hurt.

So these are the things. When I talk about explaining why, those. are where I'm going to start and now I'm going to explain and connect the dots so that the purse the individual see that Someone getting hurt is actually the least professional thing that you can do from a leadership perspective if I let one of my guys get hurt That's just that's just Lill least professional thing I can do from an individual contributor perspective If I'm getting hurt guess what I didn't follow procedures. Okay, look are there actions that happened? Yes there are but what I'm saying is if you get an accident that could have been prevented

that should have been prevented and I as an individual let it happen that is absolutely my fault it's like when you got a guy getting ready for an MMA fight and they get cut they weren't wearing head gear and it's like look I get it but that was dumb and I've had that happen I mean I've had it happen with my fighters I've seen it happen all kinds it happens in the UFC all the time right you got a fight coming up you're gonna fight for the title For the UFC title, you're going to make possibly millions of dollars. You're going to be the champion of the world.

Oh, two weeks out, got a cut. Got a cut on my head. You know, boo out my ACL doing takedown defense. Right? Look, I get it. Accidents happened. But what was really happening right at that moment? Was it a random accident or we were doing something that we shouldn't have been doing?

So if we start to lean towards look, having accidents is actually a, An unprofessional thing to do. It's a weak thing to do. It's a bad thing to do. When we let it happen, it hurts everyone, not just the individual involved. That's the attitude that we kind of come with. You know, I had the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, you have, like, alcohol programs.

Yeah. So, hey, this is our program for, you know, alcohol. Here's how we're trying to combat having people have alcohol-related incident. And when I was at trade at, they had someone come in to like give us a talk about alcohol. And then when they got done, the guy says, okay, you know, sir, I was the guy in charge. He goes, what's your alcohol policy? And I didn't have one. And I didn't have one.

And I was like, okay, hey, cool. I'll come up with one. Here's the alcohol policy. If you get hurt or sorry, if you get drunk and you can't, if you get drunk and you can't, if you get, drunk and you get in trouble or you get in a fight or you get arrested or you get a DUI and you take time away from being deployable, you are doing Al-Qaeda's job for them. There's the alcohol policy. So now all of a sudden it's not like, hey, cool, we're like, yeah, rah-rah. No, all of a sudden, hey, man, do we want to help the enemy by taking ourselves off the battlefield? There's nothing more

that al-Qaeda wants than for this seal to be arrested for DUI and non-deployable yeah you just did al-Qaeda's job for you yeah so that's the kind of thing that I'm going to build the culture around yeah and that's the same thing you can do with people that are you have that cowboy mentality you shift it so that that that cowboy mentality becomes the thing that hurts our reputation that hurts our that hurts the company reputation and it hurts our individual personal reputation Yeah. As a man, I couldn't even prevent my shift from getting from having someone get injured. Yeah.

So that's why I do. Yeah. Like it feeds into their professional pride, especially when you use the word unprofessional. Oh, yeah. You know what I use that word. Yeah, man, you know what you're doing on that one. And then on the flip side, if you say consummate professional, right? Ooh, that's a good one.

If you're, man, you could do, it doesn't even matter the job. You can have your own lawn mowing business when you're 13 years old. If someone says, hey, that kid's a consummate professional. You're like, hell yeah. Hell yeah. I'm going to have to push back a little bit. I don't know if there's too many, I don't know if there's too many situations where you would say a 13-year-old lawn mower. Now, we know that Mark, the way the Warrior Kid is heavily involved in the lawn mowing with Mark's meticulous mowing.

Yes, sir, he is. But even, I don't even know if I'd call him a consummate professional. I wouldn't either, but if you were to do so, if you were to do so, Mark would feel really good. If you said it's what I'm saying is you can't be just throwing words around. Yeah, that's fine. You can't just throw around consummate professional about moan bonds. Now, let's say the guy was a greenskeeper, like on a golf course. Sure.

Now that person could be a consummate professional because he's got to dial stuff. And then maybe I guess you get to a certain level of just straight landscaping where, oh, you know what? There was a water. There was a, the pipe exploded. Oh, Jocko came in. He had that whole thing re-sotted, reseeded, took him four hours. That guy is a consummate professional. So I guess I'll take it back.

Well, I'm just saying reserve it. Reservit. Don't play with it. Okay. Don't play with that. Flying that thing around. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah.

Makes sense. What, um, the, the, the, the, the, man, that I, That was very clever on your part. When you said you're doing Al-Qaeda's job for you. Because think about it. I mean, you know. There's nothing worse for a guy in the military to hear is you are actually helping the enemy right now. Yeah.

And then how you say it, like you name names, you know. It's not like you said the enemy, which I get, that's good too. But it's way better to be like you're doing and you name the person. Because J.P. will say that too, right? Where he'll be like there was a sign or something about a sign or maybe he'll just say it. It'll be like your enemy thanks you for not giving 100% today. Yeah. Remember that one?

And it's good. That's a good one. And it sounds cool too. I get it. But it is real general. So you hear that 10 times or every day or whatever. You're like, okay, cool. It sounds cool, but it won't really affect your professional pride all the time.

Sometimes it does something. But if you name the enemy, you know, like if you have some adversary, you know, and they thank you, that person, whatever, John Smith, you know, for not giving 100%, you know, it might feed into you. So you saying Al Qaeda thanks you for getting arrested. So I'm like, yeah, man. Think about it from the flip side, right? What if you think of like an al-Qaeda fighting team, right? And one of them gets, like one of their effective fighters gets caught, I don't know, doing something that they don't like gambling,

going to strip club, I don't know, whatever. And they say, hey, you're not allowed to fight anymore for us. So he gets like exiled or whatever. That's sweet. We want them to do that. We might even send them some strip clubs. recommendation. You see what I'm saying? So it's literally you're literally doing that. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. That's good.

Chalker clever guy. Next question. Hi, Jocko. You answered a question about complainers and said you would listen to the because, well, it should be listened to them, right? You said you would listen to them because you can learn what the problems are. I like it and people like to be heard. But how do you handle chronic complainers? the type of people who become cancerous. I'm a huge fan of extreme honesty. It should take thanks for your time. Yeah, this is to calls once again for my favorite, my favorite general remedy in, in leadership situations is you take this person

and you put them in charge. Put them in charge. And this is one of those classic things where someone says, hey, why are we even doing it this way? And you say, oh, echo, you don't like that? Cool, why don't you come up with a plan and you go execute it however you want. Yeah.

And that does one or two things. Either they say okay and they step up and then they have to figure out how hard the job the task is and they have to get it done and it's, they learn from it and they get humbled by it and they recognize the the burden of responsibility that a leader actually has, which is all good. Or they just say, no, no, no. And they stop complaining because they don't want to get tasked with anything again. Now, what you got to be careful with is. A lot of these answers that I give, you. could go like in the wrong direction. So what I mean by that is echo says, hey, I don't like the way we're doing this. And I go, okay, well, then you're in charge. You know what I mean?

I do it like that. It's a punishment. It's a punitive thing. That is absolutely not what I'm talking about. I say, you know what, Echo, you're pointing out some good stuff. You're pointing out some definite shortfalls in the way that this is happening. I'll tell you what, why don't you actually just take responsibility for this and you can run this task and you can make this happen because I think you know just based on some of the things you've pointed out already I'm not even calling them complaints based on some of the things you pointed out already I think you could probably improve upon our process quite a bit you know so you got to be careful I'm not talking about being a jerk to someone yeah I'm talking about action and this is the thing it's like it's like there's there's

there's this thing where what I'm doing I'm not just playing the game you ever you ever have I to listen to Jiu-Jit-to, I'm like, hey, if you want to set me up with the choke so that you can get my arm, you have to actually do the choke. You have to actually apply the pressure. If you don't apply the pressure, I'm not defending it. My arm's not going to go where you want it. You have to actually do it. And if I don't defend it the way you expect me to, then you just choke me. It's the same thing here. I'm not saying you just say, well, why don't you do it then? No, you have to actually say, hey, listen, I think this is what's going on. I think you have some good points. Why don't you take lead on this and we'll see if you can you know remedy the situation because I think

you got a pretty good chance of doing it. Yeah. This isn't I'm not doing this as a punitive thing. I'm doing it because it's the best thing for the team. You've got a legitimate complaint. You've got a bunch of them. Yeah. Let's get you in a position where you can sort some of those things out. Yeah. So yeah. So that's that's that. When you get people that are complaining, you know, first of all, hear them out. And maybe that's good enough, right? Hey, listen to them. And and once again, I'm not saying you listen to them while your brain is elsewhere and you're not thinking or you actually listen to what they're saying you're engaged you really do go for the choke Go for it listen to what they're saying maybe there's some solutions you can come up with

But then if that doesn't work and even after they even after you listen to them and you explain to them Why things aren't the way they want they still want to complain it complain about it cool that's fine awesome Why don't you take lead on this and that way you can sort out some of these issues appreciate it And like Leif said that one time it's kind of hard to complain about a plan when it's your plan. Yeah, that is the truth. Yeah, make sense. God, I'm so stupid. Yeah, this plant sucks that I came up with. But the, yeah, the chronic complaining, because you could kind of, I mean, people will complain a lot. You, you, you, it's easy to be like, oh, they're chronic complainers, right? But if there's constantly, we'll say chronic problems, that might induce chronic complaining.

I'm not saying that's the case, obviously, because I know that they're, you know that they're, right? is such thing as chronic complainers 100%. But at the very least, like how you say, oh, yeah, put them in charge of something or listen to them and they'll point, you know, listen to what they're complaining about or whatever, you might actually get turned on to all these solvable problems, you know? And if you, look, if you make someone take lead in a situation, right? And you know how it's kind of like that concept of like taking extreme ownership and then what if they do like say, yeah, it is your fault.

And then you get all mad, you know, kind of thing. It's like, oh, you didn't really do that. It's like, so if you put someone else in charge of something, you're really putting them in charge. Like, what if they run? What if they take lead and they solve all the problems? Awesome. Awesome, right?

Yeah, exactly right. So you don't treat this action or this discourse as like something to get back at the complainer. It's not just a setup. Yeah. It's a real move. It's a real deal. Yeah. And you know, that's, you just made this point that I made, which is,

one of the best leadership tools that is completely overlooked by people all the time is very, very simple to do. And that's just to listen to what people are saying. I know it sounds crazy, but I run into all the time leaders in all kinds of levels, all kinds of situations.

And the biggest problem they have is they don't even listen to anyone else. They won't listen. Yeah. So when you're in a leadership position, try this, be quiet and listen to what people are saying. Listen to what they're complaining about. Listen to what suggestions they have.

Listen to what advice they give. Listen to their recommendations. Listen. Just listen sometimes. You're going to be in a much better spot. Yeah. And even like you saying that out loud sounds real obvious, you know, but it's, man, it's not. Because even a lot of times, like if you don't listen, I'm thinking of myself, like all the many trillions, trillions of times that I haven't listened when I should have.

Most of the time, most of the time will say, I don't mean to know. not listen. I don't mean to be like, it's not like I'm like hearing noise and being like, oh, you don't know what you're talking about. You're dumb. You know, what you say doesn't mean anything. It's not that. It's more that I'm like focused so hard on what I'm thinking or my way or whatever. Like I'm just so just, of course, naturally, it's mine. I've been thinking about it for years now, you know, kind of thing. So I'm so basically dug in to myself on my own thing that I'm not and I'm just not paying attention that much. You know, I'm like working so hard down this tunnel that like, I can't look out of the tunnel

kind of thing. So you don't really mean to, but when you're in the situation, it's like it's not that easy. You know? It's, and you know what it is also? It's a detachment. Yeah. Because when you're talking, you're talking. Yeah.

You've got to step back detach. Listen to what people are saying. I do this all the time. I do this all the time. It's such a, it's such an easy move. Yeah, if you just move, you just watch. You just listen. Even like in jih Tzu, you do this.

You're like, oh, the person wants to move around a bunch. Cool, let them move around a bunch. Let's see where they're going. I'm just going to listen to their moves, you know? Yeah, and that's a good way to put it, man. Just listen to their moves. Just listen. And yeah, if you primarily focus on that listening,

then, like, you habitually be able to do it way better. Because, like, again, like back to the, it's not like a, you're not doing it with malicious intent. You know, you're not shutting them down. It's almost like you ever, like, interruptors, right? You know, chronic interruptors, people interrupt you all the time. Some of the time, a lot of time, whatever. We'll say half of the time estimate. There, it doesn't feel like they're doing it because they don't want to hear what you have to say. Sometimes it's that for sure. But sometimes they, it's almost like, it's almost like they have this tone of like, dang, I don't think I finished my point as good as I wanted to. Almost it's like that tone for them for themselves. Because they're so committed to their message and what they've been thinking the whole time. And if you're not signing right onto it, it's man, I must not have said it clear enough. You see what I'm saying? I had to like tighten up my kids on just straight they just wouldn't let each other talk It's just interrupt interrupt interrupt and I think it was yeah it was my son for sure and he looked at me and he goes

He's like he says dad you mean teachers to be aggressive our whole lives and now all of a sudden you're telling us just a sit back That was funny did you tell him that that's the dichotomy I said that's the economy I know you did Yeah All right next question what is what is the most important issue you've ever changed your mind about this is you know this is one of those things where I'm I'm sure this is one of those questions where uh I should have like some answer about some specific subject or something you know what I mean

like I can see I know what answer is desired I know what type of answer is desired but the reality is, you know, for me, to taking ownership of things, right? This, and this, this wasn't really like I changed my mind to where, what I used to say, I'm going to blame everyone. And then all of a sudden I said, you know what, that's not the right policy to have. I need to start taking extreme ownership. I didn't do that. But it was just a, a thing that built, developed inside my brain.

And I think it's the most, the most important thing that I've ever. sort of recognized or conclusion that I've come to. That's not a change, but I'm sure at some point my attitude wasn't like, I'll just take ownership of that, which it is now. But at some point, you know, I'd say, well, that's not really my responsibility.

You know what I mean? Of course. You know, that's a natural thing to say. And I'll tell you what, the next, and this is interesting, but the other, and this one's kind of more of a, more of a, I can pin it down a little bit closer

to an answer that someone would like, And this is once again, it's gonna be a little bit, a little bit strange, but the other thing is the dichotomy of leadership. And this is the thing about the dichotomy of leadership. And I actually was thinking, I actually didn't, didn't really recognize this until the last muster. And I was, as I was thinking about the dichotomy of leadership,

maybe it was off of a question, maybe, I think it was actually before, no, actually it was before we even started, I was just like reviewing notes and thinking about the dichotomy of leadership. And one of the most, important things about the dichotomy of leadership is that the reason the reason that I came to the conclusion the reason that I got to the dichotomy of

leadership in getting there let me rephrase that in getting to a point where I said there's a dichotomy of leadership what I had to do was I had to admit to myself that I was wrong about everything that's what I had to do in order for the For the idea of the dichotomy of leadership to escape my brain, to get out, to get to to become a full thought. What I had to do, I had to admit to myself that I was actually wrong about everything. So I'll give you real easy examples. One of my things that I used to tell guys all the time, you got to be aggressive. You got to be aggressive. That's how you got to be. In order for the dichotomy of leadership, I had to admit you know what sometimes being aggressive doesn't work yeah I used to say you know what as a leader you gotta stand up you gotta be loud and then I realize you

know what there's I see leaders that are too let I admit that I was wrong about that that sometimes that was wrong I had to admit that I was wrong about keeping things simple like hey you know what this is one of the most fundamental laws of combat you got to keep things simple and then I had to admit that sometimes people keep things too simple Even this fact right here, right? In order to admit that I was wrong, I had to be humble. And I used to preach, and I still preach humility as being like the most important thing.

But guess what? There are people. And there are even me. Well, there's times and places where you can be too humble. Yeah. And so this idea, this idea that there's a dichotomy to everything, it's something that the original thought for me was, it came from me having one. one-sided opinion and then realizing that and I'm I'm almost positive I don't remember crystal clear

But I'm almost positive that the original thought that I realized there was a dichotomy to Was being aggressive and and again this was this is all kind of coming to fruition As I'm teaching guys at trade at and Leif was running the junior officer training course and I used to give them the so and I remember right and you know I remember that saying myself you know what I got to tell guys that they can go too far with being aggressive and they can go too far with barking orders and I just it like that's where it came from and if I wouldn't have been able to change my mind right because that's what this question was changing my mind about something the biggest thing probably ever in my life was understanding that just about every characteristic that a person can have that a leader can have can go too far and can

can become a negative characteristic. So that's probably the biggest thing that I've changed my mind on. Interesting. Yeah, that aggressive one, that makes sense because like, yeah, aggressive, being aggressive is one of the more effective ways to straight up quote unquote, get things done.

For sure. Do it, it'll be done, do it, you know. Don't wait, don't hesitate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, there's a problem in a building. Let's sit back and wait until that problem sorts. No, like you gotta be aggressive. aggressive yeah but then if you're and jiu jitza will teach you all kinds of lessons like this where

if you're going to spring a trap on somebody or something animal person whatever what's the best type of type of person that you can catch with a trap probably an aggressive one you know like they can set themselves up to to get trapped if they're like aggressive you know like an animal who's real hungry you know yeah hesitating like if an animal's like hesitant you know Mm-hmm. Just hesitant, maybe sees things develop a little bit before they take a, you know, certain action or whatever, they'd be harder to trap.

Yeah. Generally. Yeah. And this is the thing that's, this is what makes humility important. Is it's hard to come to grips with the dichotomy of leadership because if you don't have the humility to sometimes say, you know what?

You're right. That, you know what? I'm wrong. Yeah. This plan isn't. what I thought it should be. Yeah. It's so hard to do that.

That's why it's hard to really get a grip on the dichotomy of leadership. And that's what makes it so important. That's what makes it the answer to so many questions. And sometimes people will come, like, you know, someone will come up and say, they'll have their counterpoint to what I'm saying. And I'll tell you right now, let's let me think of a, of a situation where you have to provide a counterpoint. If I, somebody comes to me and says, you know what, being a great.

Isn't always good sometimes if you're aggressive all you do is you you run to your death now An egotistical jocco would say negative you're wrong I'm right and I would dig in in that position And when you dig in in a position you can't maneuver anymore so I'm actually stuck So this is a classic thing to do also when when when I'm arguing with somebody if you come to me and you say I think We think we should do this, you know, method B. I say, I don't say no, because I think we should do it method A. That's what I think. And you think we should do it method B.

You come to me, I think we should do this method B. I think you're wrong. You know what I say? Okay, well, I think you've got some good points on method B. Oh, all of a sudden, you know, all of a sudden, we're in a totally different scenario. Oh, yeah. I just totally flipped the script on you. Yeah.

And you know what I say is I say, you know, some good points that you have. If you watch people debate. it's really a little slick move but you don't see politicians do it because they're so dug in they can never think they're wrong and they can never and what they also are afraid of they're afraid if they admit they're wrong about something

they'll look bad whereas if they said you know what that's a good point that's actually a good point I'm going to need to consider that I've never really thought of that viewpoint before you know what I'm going to assess that but I guess I think you got I think there's some validity to what you just said when's the last time You heard a politician say that.

I don't, yeah, I never, I don't think of that. And then what happens is, in this day and age, the, the supporters of that politician, they don't, they don't, they don't recognize the valid point either. Yeah. It's just, no. Yeah. So we get people that aren't thinking and to, and, and it's very hard to hold dichotomies in your head that this can be right and that can be right.

There's an aggressive approach and there's a non-aggressive approach. There's a direct approach and there's an indirect approach. And both of them can be functional. It's really hard to get a grip on that. And yet it's the answer to so many questions. It's the answer to the person, the subordinate that comes to you and says, we should not be doing it this way.

If your reaction isn't to diametrically oppose what they're saying, but instead to actually take their side and say, oh, I agree with you. You've got some really good points. Let's see how this would play out. Talk me through it. Yeah, yeah. You can't even know, you're like loud, you know, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like a move.

Yeah. It's like a jiu-jitsu move. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. So there, there's some things I've changed, changed my mind on about. My mind is open, though. I will change my mind if, if new evidence presents itself.

I'll change my mind in a heartbeat. Let's do it. Present me with new evidence. Yeah. What about like, well, I would think anyway after kind of thinking about it where, yeah, you, I think, I think generally speaking, we do kind of respect someone who can, who can change their mind. And we all see it once people's digging into their opinion, you know, and saying all kinds of weird wacky stuff to try to defend yourself, themselves. And you're like, it's not what we're talking about kind of thing. You see it.

It's clear. So like, it seems obvious like, yeah, you should change your mind when or at least open up your mind. And like how you said, hey, I'll give that some consideration. I'll look into it. And if you're right, shoot, I think you're right. I think that's a better way to do it or whatever, whatever the case is. But the, and then I guess technically this is a dichotomy too where you can't do that too much. Because if you're always changing your mind with, you know, like a, I don't know, we'll say a politician.

Yeah, yeah. Every time of the opposing view or some other view comes in, you're like, dang, I didn't look at it like that. Or I didn't. Maybe I'll look back or look into that more. Well, it's again. And again, and again, it's like, Brad, does this guy know anything? Because guess what you're talking about? What?

There's a dichotomy. Yeah. And if you go too far and you change your opinion all the time and then you become indecisive and so that doesn't work. But if you're so, if you're the other side of the spectrum and you're completely dug in and you never change your mind, that doesn't work either. Where you need to do? What do you need to do? You need to balance the dichotomies. The dichotomies between being flexible and inflexible.

If you become ultra flexible where you're just going with whatever anyone's saying, that's not good. Yeah. You need to find the middle ground. That's what the dichotomy of leadership is. Yeah. But it's hard for people to comprehend that. Yeah. It's hard for people to see that where they draw that line.

Yes. Because they think, well, you know, I'll never change my opinion on this. Okay. You just told me where you stand. Yeah. I'm not sure I like that very much. Yeah. Because new information can come to light.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's where they stand. Right. that dichotomy or whatever because I think part of part of it and it's part of it is like yeah they don't want to be wishy-washy you know but the other part or the other part of that is I'm saying if they always change their mind if they're so easily to be like oh okay maybe we'll do it your way or whatever it flopper yeah it I think they come off like they don't know anything for sure like so if you don't know anything should you even be in that position like I don't want you to be the congressman if you're if you don't know anything kind of thing right that's the feeling so and now with that that's the feeling that people are trying to avoid when they dig in. They don't want to admit they're wrong because if I admit I'm wrong and that means for what I didn't know, you know, kind of thing.

So it's like, no, bro, you don't, you don't draw the line right there. You draw the line a couple steps down the road. Be open a little bit. Give yourself some room to maneuver. Yeah, yeah. Don't dig in. Yeah. Room to maneuver.

Next question. How does one detach when getting personally attacked and take extreme ownership with false claims? And what does one do? when a subordinate always goes above the chain of command instead of working out issues with the coworker. Okay, this isn't the clearest question that I've ever received. I'm going to try and I'm not sure if I completely understand it, but I'm going to try and sort of answer to the best of my ability. I think what we're talking about here is that someone is telling me that something is my fault and that is a false claim. That's the question, right? You're making a false claim

and saying like this is your responsibility, Jocko. You were supposed to press record. Right. And it's false because I wasn't supposed to press record. Yeah. Let's say. Yeah. Or maybe like record was pressed.

Like there is no issue, you know. Well, then why would that become a personal attack? Yeah. Yeah, I guess it wouldn't. So the personal attack is, Jocko, you didn't press record. Yeah. And now the question is, what do I do then? Because we both know who's in charge of pressing record here.

Yeah. Who is? Me. Okay, so you're in charge of press and record. If you all of a sudden, we are 40 minutes into a podcast and we haven't pressed record, the record has button has been pressed. And all of a sudden it comes to light and you say, Chaco, you didn't press record. Right. Now, what this person is saying, that's a false claim.

Gotcha. That's not my responsibility. It's truly not my responsibility. I'm not going to take, actually. Why should I be doing that? And you know what I'm going to say? You know what I'm going to say. Yes, sir, I do.

Which is, you know what? It is my responsibility because I'm here. It's primarily my voice that's being recorded. And from now on, I will make sure that that gets recorded. It's my fault. I will take care of it from now on. By the way, now what is your job responsibilities in this whole podcast? Nothing.

You have nothing to do. If you're not pressing record, you're not nothing to do. So how does that feel? Yeah, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good. You don't like that. But when I take away that responsibility, you're actually going to come and claw back from me. You're going to say, you know what?

Actually, you know, it was your fault when that happened, but you know what from now on since you screwed it up? I'm going to take ownership of it. And you know what I say? I say, cool. That's awesome. Yeah, good point. Since you are over there with the recorder and since you're a technical guy and I'm not, that makes a lot of sense. Why don't we go with that from now on?

You own it. Yeah. I shouldn't have dropped the ball last time. You know? You know. So that's the whole. So there we go. I own it.

I fix it. By the way, if you don't want responsibility back, if you just say, cool, yeah, you press a cord from now on. Okay, cool. I will.

And then guess what? I'll start thinking about how much I need you around here. Yeah. Because really, what else do you bring to the table? And that's real. All right.

So that's question number one. The question number two, as far as detaching, so I don't get emotional, that's, if someone is blaming me, if someone is blaming me, If you start blaming me or something,

I actually look at that right out of the gate. I see that as a psychological victory from me. Because you're blaming me. Like you're blaming, you're not taking ownership. I already won. I already won. So there's no, I'm not getting emotional about that.

That's, they're blaming me because they don't have the, the wherewithal to actually take ownership themselves. I see that as a weakness of theirs, and I'm fine with it. And that's why I don't, I'm not going to, I don't need to get emotional

because I'm sitting there going, wow, this person just served me up on a silver platter. the fact that they don't want to take ownership, but they're going to give it to me. Are you kidding me? I'll take this all day long. Another thing is, and I've said this before,

I can't be respect, I can't be disrespected by someone that doesn't even respect themselves. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You can't disrespect me. If you don't even respect yourself,

if you're just, you know, like a bum in the street is where the thing came from. Yeah. You know, someone that's just a, you know, a drunk bum laying in his own vomit and wants to, you know,

look at me and say, you look like a dirt bag. Yeah. It's like, okay, dude. Yeah. Carry on with your day. Yeah. You're not going to affect me.

So how, in the same vein, if, how can I be disrespected by you when you tell me, when you blame me for something, when I realize what's happening right now is you don't even have enough respect for yourself to take ownership of something. Yeah. This is just a win. Yeah. So that's the second part.

And I think the third part of the question is a subordinate that, that goes up the chain of command instead of working out the issues with the co-worker, that's pretty easy. I'm not going to solve those problems for you. Oh, you got a problem down the chain of command? With your coworker, your peer, and you guys aren't working it out

and you want me to solve your problem? No, you go figure it out and come back to me with the solution. Now, I'll do that a couple times if eventually they can't come up with a solution. Guess what I have? I have a problem. I have a real problem, and I will solve it. And they're not going to like my solution

because it probably involves neither one of them being there anymore. Extreme case But what I will do is I say okay Come and read me the facts You really want me to make a decision about this? Cool, I'll do it But I always felt horrible In fact, I don't even know if I ever did this

Going to my boss to make a decision About something that I should have agreed with with my peer Because you know what I'd rather just for me I'd rather say hey you know what you want to do it your way echo fine Let's go with it it's close enough You oh you want to take the lead cool you take the lead I'll support you no problem That's what I'm here for

I want the team to win. I know you're concerned about you. And I know that that's fine. That's fine. I'm here for the team. So let's do it your way so that it works out. Not going to my boss and complaining. That's just ridiculous.

And that's another one where I'm in, I don't think I've ever been in a corporate scenario, but it seems like that that's easy to see in other people, you know? Like where, you know how like a situation where, yeah, let me let my subordinate take lead. It seems like that could be a solid, almost obvious answer for people. Yeah. Except myself.

You know, like I don't always point that inward. You know, I'm sure there's like people out there where it's like, oh, this will solve probably a lot of your problems. Just look at it this way and do it and do that. You know, let one of your subordinates like take lead on the stuff. And I would predict as far as that goes that most people, People would be pretty surprised. Like, oh, yeah, I guess I should do that. Yeah.

You know, at this point? So you're saying that it's a pretty obvious solution once you hear it. Yeah. But you're also saying that it's a difficult solution to actually execute because most people put in the situation don't remember it. Yeah, they don't remember to point it inwards. Yeah. Even like literally you could be getting this advice like right now. You could be getting this advice.

But hey, yeah, Jocco, that sounds like good advice. And then they'll go like back to work and it applies to him someone else, you know? It's like you don't realize it like man I should do that you know kind of thing. Yeah, that's the trouble with learning. It's trouble with learning because it's hard to apply it yourself. Yeah. Once again, it's like jiu jitsu. You can watch, I can show you how to do it.

And then you can watch me do it. And then I can move your limbs around so that you do it. And then we do a drill where we drill to move 20 times. And then you get into a competition and the move is there and you don't execute. You don't execute it correctly because you haven't done it enough. Yep. You have to do the move. You gotta do the move. You gotta do the move. Next question. So I'm watching deadliest catch the fishing show. Wait, crab. Crabbing, crab's right? Crabbing show. Yeah. Alaskan killing crabs.

Respect. So I'm watching deadliest catch and a deck hand wasn't paying attention and let too many small crabs into the tank. This is big trouble for the captain. So the kid admits his mistake and apologizes. Captain, you're fired. I've watched you screw up for years. What's the message here? Yeah, so it's the captain that fires says it. Yes. It sees the mistake and says the captain says you're fired. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. So this is, this is just tells me a couple things. This tells me a few things. This tells me a lot of things, right? First of all, the boss watched the deckhand screw up for years. My assumption is that he didn't say anything. You watch someone screw up for years. How is the deck hand going to improve if he doesn't get counseled on what

his shortfalls are? Okay. So that's one, that could have happened, right? That's one assumption. Let's make the other assumption. The other assumption is that the captain did counsel the deckhand and watch him screwed up for years and told him, you better not do that, you better not do that, you better not do that and he's now done it again and guess what he's getting fired so so that that's understandable so I think the question is implying kind of like you know hey this yep hey boss this was my fault shouldn't let that happen and now the boss can say oh well since you're taking ownership of that that's no problem we'll let it go that doesn't happen so so if you have a if you have a concept in your brain that you

think that when you when you take ownership for something that you're immune then from the punishment of the mistake you've made that's not true that's absolutely not true taking ownership of a mistake does not relieve you of responsibility of that mistake in fact the opposite of true when you take ownership of a mistake you're taking ownership of the mistake and you are raising your hand and saying i own the mistake and if there's punishment to be meted out, it needs to land on me. That's what ownership is. Ownership is not a get out of jail free card.

You know what's my fault? You know, we joke about this. It's my bust. Hey, my bust on that one. It won't happen again. So now everyone just ignores it? No, this is a serious violation. Having the wrong-sized crabs is the kind of thing

that gets you rolled up by the fishing game department. And all of a sudden, you're getting shut down. It's a serious business. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, are at stake here. And this kid isn't doing his job correctly. So either the boss, the captain had mentored him and was fed up, which it makes him a good boss. And this was his last warning and he failed his last warning. And there you go.

Hey, I've been watching you screw up. I told you you screwed up. I've written you up about screwing up. And I told you not to let this happen again and you just let it happen again. You're fired. Or maybe the boss wasn't that. squared away and he hadn't counseled him he hadn't had the hard conversations early with him to square him away and now yeah the boss leave something to be desired because he's just the first offense he's that he talks him about is hey you're fired when I took ownership of the blue on blue in extreme no in extreme ownership first chapter I could have been fired for that yeah I could have been fired my boss could have said yeah yeah you're right this is your fault we can't have that happen out here you're fired and I you know I said, Roger that.

It's not, hey, I own this. Please let me go. Yeah, yeah, I took responsibility. Now here, I will say this, though. If, so taking extreme ownership is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, but I will tell you this, if you make excuses, it is going to be worse in 99% of the situations. Well, you know, the small crabs snuck in when I wasn't looking.

That's not my fault. tactical craps on the move, right? Then you just look like an idiot, right? So then another thing that this brings up is this idea of preemptive ownership and that is taking owner, if you take ownership of something, you don't want to take ownership after the fact.

Extreme ownership, the idea of extreme ownership in its purest and most effective form isn't, something went wrong and I'm now taking ownership of the mistake. That's not the, that's not the best extreme ownership scenario. The best extreme ownership scenario is when you take ownership prior to the mistake happening and you realize that if there is going to be a mistake, you are going to own it, so what you're going to do is you're going to work hard to prevent that mistake from happening. That's preemptive ownership. You're taking ownership before the mistake happens. So this kid, This deckhand could have put procedures in place to make sure no small crabs got in.

It sorted them out properly. But instead he thought, oh, you know what? It would be no big deal. I'll just take ownership and then they'll say it's okay. Or, you know, I'll blame someone else or whatever his thinking in his brain. If he says, look, if I let small crabs in here, I am going to own it and I am going to get fired. Guess what? Perhaps he would have worked a little harder to prevent these small crabs from being where they weren't supposed to be.

be but see when you have that out when you think you can just blame someone else yeah that allows you to be slack yeah when you think well you know this isn't really my response but that's why when I work with companies and they'll have some thing that's going wrong some problem some procedure that's not working correctly some timeline that's not being met and one of the first questions I ask it it normally like a huge step in the right direction to to resolve the problem is I go okay who's in charge of that process and a bunch of people will be looking around at each other and no one's raising their hand and the minute i see that i go hmm interesting this is this is the answer to me now we know

why the process is ineffective because no one has ownership of it and if no one has ownership of it and the thing doesn't get done when it's supposed to get done everyone just points at each other and says yeah well it wasn't my fault it was his fault it was their fault and then no one takes ownership and no one solves it whereas if you say okay echo you are in charge of this process if it doesn't work i'm coming after you You know now you can step up your game preemptively to prevent a mistake from occurring prevent the little crabs from getting in the pot Yeah So taking ownership isn't a get out of jail free card If you have a subordinate you are actually responsible for counseling them and coaching them and mentoring them and

Explaining to them what the standards are so that they can meet the standards explaining explicitly what the standards are so that they can meet those standards are so that they can meet those standards standards and the optimal ownership takes place not only after but more importantly before something goes wrong not to mention you got to take responsibility for solving the problem yes you do which apparently this deckhand guy has not yeah he didn't take he took ownership for the mistake he didn't take ownership for the for solving the problem. He also didn't implement a solution to the problem. There's all kinds of problems.

For years, by the way. Yeah. So there you go. Next question. What mistakes did you make early discussed in your live podcast that could have progressed you further? Yeah. I think there's just some real big obvious ones.

Wasted a bunch of time. You know, you waste a bunch of time. When you're young, you think you got forever and you waste time. And whether it's doing stuff. that's not productive, whether it's going out, get drunk, whatever dumb things you waste time doing, whether it's just wasting time. And you know what?

Look, I'm not saying don't have fun in your life because that's wrong answer to. That's too extreme. But what I am saying is I sometimes I had a little too much fun. Sometimes I wasn't focused on the right thing. So wasted time is number one, wasted money, wasted a ton of money on dumb stuff. and I'd say that both of these are wasting time, wasting money,

those are like the two biggest mistakes that I've made. But I would say the root of those mistakes is that I didn't do a good job of connecting the future to the present. Right? You just don't, when you're young, I shouldn't say that. When I was young, because I don't want to put a universal blanket of being dumb on everyone. Even though you're nod in your head pretty heartily over there

Because you're probably yeah We see a lot of people do this right A lot of us we waste our time we waste our money and we don't connect what we're doing right now with what's gonna happen in the future And that is not a good policy to have what we want to do and what I try and instill with kids with my kids with With kids that I talk about on the podcast Is I want to connect what decisions are being made right now with decisions that with the with the end state that you end up with in your future. So if you take advantage of your time,

you're going to be in a much better place. If you save your money, you're going to be in a much better place. If you invest your money properly, you're going to be a much better place. If you train and you treat people, if you train hard, you're going to be in a much better place.

If you treat people respectfully and you build relationships, you're going to be in a much better place. If you do the opposite of those things, you're going to be in a worse place. If you treat people like dirt, it'll come back to bite you. If you waste your money, you won't have it.

If you waste your time, you'll run out. So I think the biggest mistake really for me was that I failed to connect the present to the future. The only ways that I succeeded in that early on was through luck. Like I joined the Navy and I'm very lucky that I did because I was immediately building my future, even though I had no, it wasn't my intent. I was immediately.

I bought a house. That was a great what I wanted to what did I buy it for I wanted a place to live What did I end up with an incredible investment Enough to buy another house that one was a little bit more intentional. Okay, wait a second if I own Another house and I was just talking about this with a friend of mine. It was like that I was explaining when and he remembered when I got my second house And I was like in my mind Donald J Trump the real estate landlord like master you right someone was going to be paying me rent you know and and I had another house that I was going to live in so that was a that was where I started making

this shift where I connected the present with the future yeah so what you do today is directly correlated to where you'll end up in the future that that is in Echoes favorite sort of thread of this entire podcast is sir is playing the long war. And it took me too long to start fighting the long war. That's what I'll say. That will say the biggest mistakes from my early life. Yeah.

And really, in a way, I mean, they could be viewed as not even really mistakes, I guess. This is more of just sort of that's the way things happen. Because most times we figure these things out later in life, when the long game starts to materialize. because when you're early in your career, only the short game is sort of there. And then in a way, actually no. At the end of the day, no. Because even as a little kid, you know the long game.

You're familiar with it, a little bit. Because like you ever had to save your money for something? Like an Optimus Prime toy, you know, something like that. And they said, you got to save your money for it. And, bro, you save your money. You know, that's playing the long game. Yeah. As a kid, you know, it's a kid version.

So it's kind of the same thing. But maybe it's not as it. intuitive, you know, when you're little, when you're big, when you're grown. Oh, yeah, it's definitely not intuitive. The other, the other weird thing is like, someone has to tell you, but like we just talked about, sometimes when people tell you, you still just don't listen to them. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, people say, hey, you should really do this. And you go, yeah, whatever, that's for you. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna. Yeah, it's for you. One of my, one of my uncles, friends won the lottery. Years ago, like in the 70s. And he won one of those big lotteries

where he got money every year. You know, you could take the lumps on or you could take the payments. The payments. He took the payments. Yeah. But won the lottery, right? Literally won the lottery.

Literally won the lottery. And so the payments lasted 20 years. Well, when you're 22, that's forever. Yeah. Right? That's forever. Yeah. And so, my dad was talking to him, talking this guy that won the lottery,

and now he was at like the 19 year mark. Yeah. And guess what he had done with all this money? Spent it up. Did he invested in real estate? Did he buy, start companies? What do you think he did with this money? Spent it.

Yeah. He bought car and whatever. That tends to be. You know, like, or whatever, dated girls and went to bars and went out for nice dinners and did that for a long time. Yeah. And so my, my dad says, Hey, you know, they're talking about it.

He says, well, you know, my, you know, this is the last year that I'm getting my monthly payments for winning the lottery. And my dad says, what are you going to, what are you going to do when the payments aren't coming anymore? And he says, I'm going to win again. So, yeah, that's planning, right? Yeah. In a sense, kind of. No, no, it's not. Obviously.

But, man, that's, man. That's, man, won the lot. But that tends to go like that for lottery winners. Yeah, apparently the lottery winning isn't a big, like, happiness deal. No, it's bad. Yeah. It ends up being bad because life is a long game. Yeah.

And no matter how you play it, the long game is the one that shakes out, you know? So if you're over here playing the short game, that's why you lose in life. If you play the short game all the time. Yes. And the people who play the long game, they just, all you got to do is play it. Don't even have to dominate it. Although I'm not recommending not trying to dominate. I'm not saying that.

Try and dominate. But you don't necessarily have to. Yeah. You could come in, shoot, second to the last place. But if you're playing the game, you're gonna be doing good in the long game. When you come in second to last place in the long game, you still just beat every single other person that's playing the short game. You beat them all. Yeah.

And they're over there looking around like, what just happened? Yeah. How is you? You're so squared away. Yeah. But it's not that complicated. complicated you know I mean it's not easy it's because it's not easy you're wired to play the short game I had to go deep on this on that last warrior kit podcast yeah oh yeah this this

yeah just like short term you need to get over the short term gratification yeah and that is the one of the biggest lessons a kid can learn is that my actions today will affect my future yeah and it's hard to convince some of that it seems so distant yeah like the future seems so distant when you're young. I was having another discussion with someone the other day, a parent. And there was a level of frustration. And it's the typical level of frustration from the parent,

which was, you know, the kid has a lot of potential, but they're like, you know, not training the way they should be and not working the way, you know, all that stuff. And what I tried to explain to the parent was that the potential that you're telling your kid that he has, they do not even comprehend what that means. It is not a, it is not a,

it's not something that they can understand. It's completely intangible. Like even when you say, oh, if you keep practicing this, you could be the champion. This means, you might as well say, if you keep practicing this, it means nothing to them.

So that's what potential is to a little kid. The little kid doesn't understand it. Yeah. And so, yes, you try and convince them. I mean, you try and explain it to them. But what I recommend is instead of trying to explain to them this massive concept of what their potential is, you try and give them some short-term rewards that lead them in the right direction that are supportive of the long game, but they're easier mental connections for the kid.

And this is the same thing applies to employees as well, right? you know, or you get a young, young employee that's, you know, they're not thinking they could be the regional manager, right? They're just thinking, they're just happy to be here. Yeah. But you're looking at them going, you know, this is a sharp kid. Could be, could. So you might not say, look, one day you're going to be the regional manager.

Right. In 22 years. Think about that. When you, somebody gets hired on as whatever. And you say, one day you could be the regional manager and you could make whatever, this big chunk of money. They're looking at you go, oh, well, they're going to be here. I'm only gonna have this job for six, but whatever.

Yeah, yeah. So what you wanna do is just tie something a little bit closer to them, to their reality. Yeah. Of, hey, here's the way you could get, here's the bonus program works here. Have you seen this? You can make an extra whatever.

Yeah. And it's gonna move them in the right direction, long game. Yeah. But they can comprehend it immediately. Yeah. That's my recommendation. Shoot, even just compliments and encouragement are good little microrewards

for those short term. Like, so I'm thinking with my kids. My kids. Once again, we can't abuse them. Yeah. We can't abuse, you know, friendliness with our children. We can't abuse. That means that's not the right word.

No, it's not the right word. We can't abuse cheerleading. Yeah. Right? We can't abuse cheerleading with our kids and everything that they do is beautiful, right? Yeah. No, that says beautiful. Yeah.

A piece of art that you just created. Yeah. What is it? Beautiful, whatever it is. Yeah. No. Yes, sir. It's like, that's not good.

Yeah. Yeah. That's not good. But you're just talking about abusing it. And the other thing is, the other thing you have to be careful with is, you know, you're telling your kid like, well, you know, you're special. Yeah. Or you're, you're so perfect. Right.

You know. Yeah. And so you can get better. Yeah. You're marginal. No, man. No. No.

Yeah. And what I mean encouragement and compliments. It's like if they do something. good, you compliment that good thing. That's essentially it. And yeah, like anything, you can throw out too many and you can throw out too little, really, because the, the fulfillment or satisfaction of receiving that compliment isn't big enough for the work that they just did.

I'd be like, man, I don't want to do those 100. I made my daughter do 90 burpees the other day. Why 90? Did you just want to withhold the century from her? She didn't get to 90 and say, hey, dad, you do whatever you want. I'm getting 10 more. Watch this. We're getting to a Hyundai.

Well, here's the thing. She's done that before, but not with 90. So I'm working her up. I started from like, I was like, hey, when she was real small. What was her time? Oh, I didn't time it. How are we going to recognize improvement? Because we're going to get to the number first.

Then we go for a time. Got it. So, I mean, that's the story. I mean, it's not like, you know, my life's mission, of course. It's just a fun little thing that I do. But if. Sounds fun. Yeah, one of them, sure.

But so if I'm like, hey, hey, you're a, super strong they like that or my kids like that when you call them strong so every time they do something like exercise or something like that and they they do a good workout or whatever i'll say how strong they're or how strong they're looking or being or whatever but if that feeling isn't enough to constitute that super hard we're like if i overpush them like i 90 given where we are with burpees with her um she's not ready she wasn't ready for 90 at this time so did you cry she no she didn't cry thankfully she'll cry no shame she'll cry I went for a run with my youngest daughter this is a while ago I don't know how she old she was at the time but I was

like okay we're gonna start running because I wanted to improve her mile time at the school I said okay you want to improve that mile time I know how to do it here we go so her mile time was weak and I said we can get it better so the first run we went on I'm not kidding. She, by the time we got one minute deep, she had tears welling up in her eyes. Yeah. And, you know, I said, hey, just keep going. But the point of saying this is my, when I try and give children, especially my children,

or any children, compliments, I try and compliment their hard work. Yeah. As opposed to you're strong or your support. What I say is you really worked hard for that and look at this great result Because what it makes them realize is that great results come from hard work and guess what? That is the truth Because we all know people that were incredibly smart incredibly strong incredibly talented incredibly gifted and they didn't do anything with any of those things because they didn't understand that they had to work hard Even if you have all that skill if you don't work hard you're not going to get anywhere. Yeah, dang that's a good little addition So lean towards

complimenting the hard work. And that's what you really want to see. Let's face it. Let me ask you this. And this is a tough question. Would you rather have someone on your team that is extremely talented or extremely hard worker?

You know? Of course, it's easy. We all want to say, well, I take the talent because we can make the person work hard, but that's actually not true. Yeah, it seems hard. And the real talent, the best talent, really is you get someone

that just knows how to grow. and work hard. Yeah. Like that's good. And that's going to be much more valuable than, hey, this person's super smart or, hey, this person's super strong. Occasionally, you get someone like GSP. Yeah.

George St. Pierre, who was way talented in multiple modalities and was a hard worker. You know what that person becomes? A world champion. Yeah. Sometimes you get a world champion that's just there. because of hard work. Sometimes you get a world champion that's just there because of talent.

Occasionally you get someone that's both and they're usually sort of a... They're more dominant. Yeah. Like a dominant champion. Yeah, that's true. And that's good advice there to compliment the hard work.

I personally like both. I like the... Especially with my son, like being strong and stuff. He really likes that. You know, so he'll... It's to the point where, like, if you help him do something, he'll get mad at you.

He'll get mad at you. Yeah. Which I kind of like. I don't know. where that's gonna lead you know but I like that currently so he he has that sense of pride you know we're being strong is a good thing yeah yeah no that's there's nothing wrong with that so yeah but man if you add the hard work part of it because being strong is essentially a result you know yeah and he doesn't obviously he's

too yeah it's really gonna be easy connection for you to make because it's hey you're strong and that's because you work hard yeah because the many you say you're strong because you got good genes cool all just sit over here be strong be strong It's true. What do you got? Yeah, it's true. And when you, especially if you don't recognize the hard work part of it, you know, and you just think you, as a kid, you're just rolling around strong.

You're basically, you've reveled in the results for so long where it's now when it's hard work time. It's kind of like, wait, I'm not used to that part of this whole thing. Yeah, they say that can happen to, they call them gazelles. Yeah. In buds. These are people that are like really fast, good athletes. Yeah. And, but they never lost before.

Yeah. And when they start getting beat down, which. you do get beat down and they lose, they can't handle it mentally. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So. Yes, sir.

That is, um, that's real. Next question. Jocko, my wife told me that she sees I am much more direct and less cordial than I used to be. I feel I've pushed too much into getting after it. And it makes those around me feel like I've changed to someone else.

Yeah. Uh, we have to be really careful. Yes. Right. Yes. Because. being more direct and less cordial

is definitely not getting after it. In fact, it's the opposite. If you are getting after it in a correct manner, your wife should be completely stoked. Yeah. Because you're going to have more time for her because you're going to be doing time management properly. You're going to have,

you're going to be doing better at work, which means you're going to be getting promoted or whatever, getting paid more or, you know, getting jobs. Obstability or whatever something like that you're gonna be healthier because you're you're working out you're gonna be stronger because you're working out you're gonna be more organized with things And you're gonna be more thoughtful about building that's what a getting after is you like your your relationship should be improving yes Not this and this is one of those this is one of echo Charles's favorite things to talk about it's actually something that you've just brought up a bunch of times on the podcast which is when someone says No, that's just how I am.

Like, you know what, Echo? I'm just going to tell you the truth because that's just how I am. Just making an excuse for being a jerk coming out of the gate, which is not good. So if that's what you're doing with your wife, you know what? I'm just going to get after it.

Hey, this tuna casserole sucks. I'm just telling you the way it is. That's how I roll. Like, no, you're actually rolling in the wrong direction. When you're getting after it in a good way, your wife will be stoked. I was getting interviewed the other day. And I realize this.

So I've written eight books. The eighth one comes out in January of 2020. It's a lot of writing. I wrote 90% of the words in those books while my family was asleep. It made almost no impact on the family. I'm writing these books. Editing is a little bit different because there's a timeline on editing. So sometimes my family would be awake while I was editing and I had to get stuff turned back in and it's a pain

But that's like a takes a week, right? But the other 90% of getting after it Was done while my family is asleep If you Contrarily are getting after it at the expense of your family in friends that's not that's actually being selfish So that's one part. Okay, so maybe you need to check yourself there and maybe sure that you got your priorities in order. There is a chance, however, that your friends don't like seeing you start to get some altitude, right? Start to be more successful, start to lead a better life.

There's all kinds of groups of people that will just drag you back down. They don't want to see you win. That's sort of, I don't know, is that the fundamental kind of baseline human instance? think I don't want to see you win if there is an element of it to I would not be surprised put it that way but I don't I don't there's at least a non-trivial part of the population population that does not want to see you win yeah there's at least a percentage whatever that percentage is of the people that you know that does not want to see you in they would rather see you

Fail. They would rather, and maybe fail's not the word, but they would at least rather have you stay with them. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. So there's a chance that that's going on. Is there a chance that's going on with your wife? Hopefully not. That's a slim chance.

Because if you think about it, your success, her success is predicated on your success. I mean, you are bound to each other. Both each of your success is predicated on each other's success. So do I want my wife to be success? Oh, yeah, because I, that's my wife. And she's looking at me going, yes, go be successful. The more successful I am, the more successful she is. So there's a, there's most likely your, your wife, in my opinion, would be supportive of your efforts unless you're just getting out of control.

There's a chance, I guess, that a wife could see, you know, someone change. And, you know, that's not the person that I married, right? But hold on, the person that you married was lazy. And I'm over here getting after it. The person that you married was making X amount of money. And I'm making a lot more than that. The person that you married wasn't in good physical shape. I'm in good physical shape.

Most of the time, the wife would say, cool, yeah, I'm getting a better deal now. Occasionally, I think you would get a spouse. I guess it could be the male or the female could happen on either side that goes, oh, you want to work hard. and I'm really not looking to do that. I was comfortable, right? I was comfortable, that's it. Yeah.

I'm comfortable. I don't want you getting all crazy. I'm over here being comfortable. So that could happen. I think that's unlikely. I think what's most likely is you are focused on yourself a little bit too much. Check yourself for that. That should be the first person you look at you.

Yeah. That's true, huh? Because like, this is actually kind of common where husband, wife, whichever the scenario is where one, let's say, let's say two people, they get married, whatever. Years down the road, one of the people in the couple, the relationship, improves themselves a lot, too. Loses a bunch of weight. They're literally, by their own standard.

They were not very attractive when they got married, but now this is 10 years later, whatever, they become straight up attractive now. Making more money. More people want to hang out with them because they're nicer, like all this stuff. Straight up across the board improvement. Meanwhile, the other person in their relationship. didn't do that. Still married. Still all good. No infidel. Nothing like that. Still married. But that person who didn't improve themselves will feel like they got phased out or kind of like like the person might want to upgrade or something like that, you know? So it's like it's a

possible they try and drag the person back down. Yeah. Because you need to be back here. I need to feel secure. Now I'm this husband and now my wife's hot. I'm not used to hot wife because when we got married you weren't that hot. I loved you for you and you know all this stuff. And you know what they say or whatever and um the and now you're a I don't know well you know I don't know I'm thinking of cliche movie thing but anyway the the wife's like all good looking now people are like people at the store like complimenting her and all this stuff and the guy's not used to it and now in his mind a little thing develops where it's like oh oh like I'm not good enough now for this hot hot girl I'm gonna buy her some Cheetos yeah bring her back down so like at least have some manage you know

manageable amount of control with this person. That's, you know, that's not an uncommon thing in that specific scenario. I guess that scenario is not very common, though. It's not a very common scenario. And then it would have to be doubly uncommon for someone to actually want to drag them back down. I have to throw it out there, though, because it is a possibility. Yeah. But for this particular question, I don't think so.

Only because this little indicator right here, my wife told me that she sees I am much more direct. and usually much more direct means insensitive in my experience. Wives don't do good, generally speaking, with insensitivity. Less cordial. That's another one. In my opinion, in my experience, because I'm married. Yeah. Less cordial is bad.

You learn things. I'm going to give you an example, something I learned about my wife. If my wife, if it isn't on the schedule, it's about enough to make my wife get mad, right? So in other words, if I said, hey, I'm going away for one, a month from now, I'm going away for six months on a work trip. I'll be back when I'm done with those six months. And when I'm gone and you're not going to be able to hear from me at all. She'd be like, okay, got it. When do you leave?

And I'd say, well, I'm leaving whatever. September 1st. And she'd go, okay. she wouldn't be even remotely upset she'd be good to go if it was Friday night and I came home and said oh I'm I didn't tell you or Saturday night I said I didn't tell you but I'm going over to echoes to watch the UFC there's a decent chance that she's mad about that because she had in her mind that we were going to eat whatever we were going out for dinner or whatever but I didn't I didn't give the pre-planned situation.

What if she didn't make a plan for that? It was just sort of maybe we could do that. It's not on her. It's on me. It's on me for not informing her of what was going on because it doesn't really matter. All she knew is that I was coming home and I was going to be around

and that was what was happening. Yeah. So anything that is not planned, you know what's really funny? This is, again, with my wife and this is where it became evident to me. Even if it's something that is positive for my wife, if I don't give her pre-planning cycle on what's going to happen. So in other words, if I was flying home and I'd been or gone for a week and I got home and busted through the door and said,

hey, I'm on a tail end of a 72 hour fast. I'm starving. I'm taking you out. And I made reservations for this really nice dinner. I'm going to go get some, you know, a $200 stake right now. Some steak. There's a chance. The percentage should be 100% she's stoked, right?

That should be the percentage. However, with my wife, there's a 20 to 30% chance that she says, you know, I was going to take our daughter to, you know, the raffle, I don't know, to play bingo. And like that is enough. Yeah, yeah. And what I don't do is I say, oh, cool, you know what, we'll go tomorrow. What I don't do is try to impose it. So what you're saying is like lack of being cordial.

What I'm saying is it's not just like that's one example of me not being cordial. So I don't, I try not to, my, I guess, I guess to sum it up, my wife doesn't really like surprises. Yeah. Right. She likes to have a plan. She likes to know what's happening. And then she'll execute the plan. So that's what you've got to be careful of.

Not what you've got to be careful of. That is one example of how these little things, they don't make sense. It doesn't make sense that my wife wouldn't be super stoked to go out to a awesome steakhouse. That doesn't make sense to anyone. Well, you know, that's a superficial thing. And let me tell you something else. that makes it a little bit tricky is I'm super insensitive

to like changing plans. Like people change plans to me. I'm like, whatever. It's literally no factor. Like, oh, yeah, we've been planning to do this for six months. Someone's like, oh, I can't do it. I'm like, okay, cool. You know what I mean?

It means nothing to me. When things change, it means nothing. It has no impact on me. I have no emotional reaction to someone saying, hey, this, we can't do this now. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I'm going to do something else. Yeah.

So I'm at the other end of the spectrum. Yeah. Which means it took me a little while to figure out that, oh, this makes you mad. Yeah. Got it. Yep. Yeah. And it's probably probably something like one level, like under the surface, too.

It's not like, hey, I had this good, you know, the raffle was, was planned in my head and that raffle is important. The raffle's not important. Neither is the dinner. It's like that part of it on that level is not important. It's one level deeper. It's the fact that I had this in my head. You didn't tell me this other thing. And now, like, what I had in my head really means nothing.

Yeah. So it's kind of that. Here's another funny thing about my wife. Is she's so into the planning thing that if I plan something, it has way more value to her. So in other words, if I say, hey, when I get back this Friday, I'm going to do a fast, and I'm going to be super hungry, I'm going to make reservations for this Friday. And we can go out and get an awesome steak,

tomahawk, rib-eye. And, like, the fact that it was pre-planned, like, I've done this before where I've taken her, and I've gotten reservations, and she'll be like, did you make reservations? And I'll say, yes, I was like, yeah, I did. And I can see, like, a little smile. Like, I care a little bit more.

That I made those reservations. Like that's pre what what the spontaneity thing. No does no no no uh points for spontaneity no zero zero points for spontaneity only points for pre-planned fires you know why why because it's thoughtful. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

That's great. That's good. That's good. That's an interesting quality right there. And I guess my point in saying this, this, these things. Mm-hmm. Is that everyone has these. little personality traits people you work with people your your spouse your children

they have these things and if you figure out what those things are you can actually utilize them to your advantage and you can bypass things that will be problematic and something that you've said too is you say oh you do this stuff to me meaning jaco does you I do some like leadership trick to you And you know that I'm doing it, but it's still like it works and it still makes you feel the way that you know it's supposed to make you feel. That's my point. Like, my wife will listen to this. Yeah.

And it's, and then I'll make reservations and she'll still be happy, even though that she knows that I'm doing it just because I know that it's going to be something that makes her happy. Yeah. Yeah. So just because you reveal like, hey, I know this is what you're like or even whether you reveal or not, doesn't matter. When someone has that characteristic, then you can. can utilize that characteristic. I know that's not the best sounding word to talk about like manipulating my wife's emotions. Yeah.

But what I want to do is manipulate her emotions to make her feel happy about something. The right way. Not necessarily a bad thing. Yep. It's a good thing. So be cognizant when you're dealing with other human beings. Look for these things. You see these things if you take a step back.

If you don't take a step back, you'll never see them. If you can't detach when you tell your wife something and you see that it makes her mad, if you can't detach, if you talk into an employee and you see that they're getting frustrated and you can't detach to try and figure out what that is, you're not going to make any real progress. Yeah. So, yeah, the direct thing, we like to be, or when people are direct to us, it makes things easier. for us, you know, but doesn't mean. Who's we? Wait, who's the we?

I don't know. Whoever people who might. Because here's the deal, man. Direct is a very, a very blunt force tool. Yeah. And not many people wield it well and not many people receive it well. Yeah. So if you're one of these people is that, you know, I just like to be direct. Right.

That's not good. And very seldom. Do you end up in situations where you can just be direct with people? You have to have real, strong, built relationships with people where you can just be that blunt and direct with them. Now, there are methodologies where you can be direct without being direct. You know, you can say things that are, hey, this is what we need to get done right now. You can take an edge off of it.

Yeah. You can, and the way you usually do that is by taking ownership of what it is. you're trying to make happen. So what I don't say is like, Echo, you need to get this thing edited tonight. Yeah. Right? I don't do that.

I might say, hey, is there any chance we could get this thing edited tonight? Because if we don't, we're going to have a gap in releases, which, by the way, we haven't had. And that's kind of a thing.

Yeah. Yeah. See, even you just kind of know that it's a thing. It is, isn't it? Right? And all of a sudden, we're there. And all of a sudden, you want to edit that thing.

Not because I told you, too, because you want to keep the gaps from opening up. Sure. So I was directly telling you, but I was indirect. So there's ways to do it, but you got to be careful with direct. Direct, it takes a long time to hone the scalpel of direct to where it just gets where you want it to cut and it doesn't leave any collateral damage. Not many people are good at it. Very few people are good at it.

Yeah, it's hard Next wish Jocco And you know That makes people mad What does When you say listen You can't just be

You can't just throw it at people People want to say Like there's a book There's a book called Radical Frankness Or something like that That's not the name of the book

But it's something like that It's like hey we just gonna tell The total radical transparency or something like that. And it's like, we're just going to tell the truth all the time. And we can get there, but man, it is work. Yeah. And it's not even work that has to be, that necessarily is the best use of work.

Yeah. So, yeah, I just know, I just know I hear people all the time. Well, you know, and people, that's what people want me to say. I'll go and work with the company. They're like, you know, what we really need to help is. We just need to really learn to be direct with each other. Yeah. And what they really should be saying is what we need to do is we need to learn to communicate with each other,

be open about what issues we have, how to solve those problems, and be more tactful in our discussions so that people are receptive. Yeah. Because think about what I just said. If it's not just about me being direct, the more important, the only way that I can be direct is if I have. Set you up in such a way that you or I've built you in such a way That you're receptive to my directness Because me being direct without you being receptive It doesn't work and so often that's what I see

I see hey, I'm direct, but but you're not receptive It's it's game over. Yeah, so even if I'm direct I'm only 50% of the solution because you have to be receptive. Yeah, What's easier when I when I go indirect I become 90% of the solution because I'm gonna get it into your brain without resistance Yeah, so I it's an easier it's easier up front as me I'll just be direct Yeah, that's easy up front because I just say echo you need to get this stuff edited Yeah, now direct that's direct one of the chances of you being receptive to that 50% Yeah, you know whereas if I well let me rephrase that

In order for this to be effective, you have to be receptive to it. So I only have 50% of the solution. You have the other 50%. Whereas if I say, like I said before, you know, hey, Echo, is there any chance we could get this done tonight? Because here's what's at stake. And I go indirect and I make that idea and make your answer. You're going to give me the answer I want. I know it can be edited tonight, right?

I know that. It makes sense. And so I'm going to, you know. You're actually going to tell me. I'm putting it into you. I'm giving you, all you have to do is just tell me. And now I'm the one that's receptive. Yes, we can't.

Oh, that's great. That's great. I'm glad. So that's something very important to talk about. If you want to talk about learning to be direct with each other, what you really have to learn is how to be receptive to directness. That's the long pole in the tent. That's what organizations are.

missing out on being direct is easy yeah being direct is the easiest thing in the world you tell people what you think that's easy yeah what's hard is setting the other person up developing a relationship so that they're receptive to what you're saying yeah be careful you play football back in the day and this new quarterback came in a few what's weird is i forget his name i'm just drawing a blank right now but new young guy tall and he had a gun If you're a quarterback and you have a gun, that's impressive, you know? Yeah, for sure. It means you throw far and fast.

Here's the thing, though. Especially when you're new, you know, and you have a gun, you're going to show that gun. You know, you're going to be like when you're playing, you know, when you're warming up before practice and stuff like that, you're throwing it and you're throwing it hard. So this guy was throwing it hard at me. I was a receiver. And we're just, it was just standing. We were just standing there. I wasn't running around.

So he's throwing it and it's hurting my hand to the point where I couldn't catch some of them because they were coming. I mean, just too fast for that distance or whatever. And sure, I was impressed with this guy's gun, but when we'd run routes and stuff, he'd still kind of do that, I guess maybe to impress the coaches. You know, he's a young guy or whatever. And here's the thing, like people would miss his balls. They wouldn't catch them because they're coming too hard.

They're hurting your hands. They're messing you up, you know? So it makes it really hard. I get it. It's great practice for the receivers. Totally is. But as far as to effectively land, a pass, you know, to complete a pass.

Right, it doesn't work like that. And we had this other quarterback. Hold on echo. Let me just stop you because you may have just made like the best analogy you've ever made on this podcast. Right. That is it. Cool. If that, if you can throw that thing direct, but if you're throwing it too hard and the person's not ready to receive it.

Right. Not even, not even to mention that you might not be ready to, you might be looking in the other direction. That thing hits you in the back of the head. Yeah. What good is that direct comment? It's zero good. It's not good. hurting your hands when you've tried to receive it.

It hurts you. Yeah. And you don't want to hear anymore. You don't want any more to be thrown at you. Nope. Okay, proceed. As opposed to this other quarterback who came in from Stanford by the- Your hard work is paying off.

That's right. Thanks, yeah. I knew it would. So this other quarterback came in. Did that quarterback make it anywhere? Did he make it the NFL? He did not make it to the NFL now. So the other quarterback came in.

His name is Tim Kerry. Came from Lake Stanford, I think. And he came in. He was kind of the, the opposite actually not the opposite because he had a guy he could throw far and suffer but the way he threw it was like it was like the perfect pass like every distance had a different velocity on it you know it was like that kind where the next if it would modulated so well yeah he modulated so well where like it the volume for those passes directness oh yeah everything and for them to get

better he would have to physically walk it and put it in your hand it was like that good when it'd come you And when you have them side by side, oh, man, I don't want that direct guy. I want the finesse guy, you know, but he did have the capability. Did he make it to the NFL? Maybe. I forget. He left Stanford to come to your college? I forget why, but I think it was a whole thing.

There was a few Stanford guys that came. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. A few guys from Stanford that came to your school. Yeah. It was doing a conference. I want to say when we changed coaching staffs.

There might have been some scouts, connections. Maybe like some relationships that were already there. Even some of the coaches, I think, came from that area. I don't know. I forget. That was a long time ago. But nonetheless, yeah, that's the way it shook out. So there you go.

Jocko. 13-year street cop here. My old man died when I was 10. It cut deep and I grew up with no one. Having two boys on my own now and loving to get after it on the street. I worry about the risk. How do I balance being the spear with ensuring I stay around for them? So, first of all, we have to recognize that there's no way that you can ensure that you stay around.

And in fact, one day you will not be around. One day none of us will be around. That's the fact. And that actually doesn't matter what your job is. and there's all kinds of things, regardless of your job, whether you have a car accident, whether you have a heart attack, whether you have cancer or a plane crash

or random violence or some random accident. There's all different kind of ways to die. Now, you are correct that the death rate of cops is higher. It's higher than a normal civilian. But what, like, loggers, construction workers, they all have higher rates of death than a cop. roofers Roofer

If you're a roofer you have a higher rate of death Than a cop any drivers anyone that drives for a living Whether they're a trucker or whether they're literally a traveling salesman they have a higher rate of death Than being being police So no matter what you do There's a chance that you could That you could die and I'll tell you what I think about this sometime in the reverse Of like, what do you, what scares you about what your kids do?

If your kids are engaging in activity that could be dangerous, whether it's parachuting, whether it's rock climbing, whatever. Like, there's things that your kids could do that they could die. And what you could do is not allow them to do it. Wrap them in bubble, bubble wrap them to go anywhere. And guess what? Even if you do that, there's still a chance. and you've taken away, you know, their growth.

So you can look at it in the reverse as well, that there's some things that you're not going to be able to control. And no matter what, you know, your kid could, you could say, I don't want my kid to join the military. And so they go to college and what happens in college? They get hit by a drunk driver. They, like, there's enough bad things that could happen in either one of those situations.

And same thing with you and your job. You could go get a job doing something unless you get a job that's just straight up You know in an administrative situation with no with very limited commute and very limited driving Then that might increase your chances a little bit But then you know Then are you doing something that you actually like to do So there's your your dilemma. So what do you do in a situation like this? What you do is you train and you prepare and you You're vigilant and you take care of your sons, obviously,

and you would explain your job to them and you explain to them why you train hard and explain to them why you're willing to make a sacrifice to keep others safe, including them. You work every day to keep them safe as well. And if you explain that to your sons, they will grow up with an understanding, of service and discipline and duty and courage and honor and by the way if something did

happen to you the model that you set for them would have massive impact would have massive impact on them and how they would live their lives and I believe it would be actually a positive impact. Sure, would they miss you? Absolutely. Sure, would they wish more than anything that you could be back? Yes. But would they recognize that their dad made this sacrifice? Yes, they would. Would they live to honor that sacrifice? Yes, they would. So that's one thing you can do if you want to keep that profession. Now, if that, if you can't get a Around that. If that doesn't make sense, which it's understandable.

If you look at me and say, hey, Jocko, I get it. I want my kids to be raised with honor, but I'd want to be there. And that's more important to me. And if that's where you end up, then what you have to do is plot out, what another job, what another career is going to be. And like I said, then you have to make it doing something that legitimately gets you into a better survival rate. Which, by the way, outlaws just about every outdoor job you could have. So you're, you know, if you work in construction, nope, that's not it. Working as electrician, nope, that's not it.

Working as a lineman, nope, that's not it. All those jobs, all those outdoor jobs, go look at these statistics. Go Google death rates in jobs. And there's all kinds of fishermen. No, forget about it. You know, there's so many jobs that have a high death rate where accidents happen. So what you're talking about going into, the life you're going into, would be going into, would be an administrative job of some kind.

And if you think you can do that and you think that'll be, give you the satisfaction that you want, then it's a possibility. Think about it. But if you look at it and you think, you know what, that's not for me. Then train hard, prepare, build a great relationship with your sons. stay vigilant don't get complacent ever and be aggressive I have to throw that one in there because in my opinion when when an individual gets scared or gets hesitant or gets overprotective of themselves I believe they're in more danger not less danger and

more danger so if you think that having kids having your sons is making you less aggressive and more scared, I think you're at higher risk. So if you're going to do the job, you do the job. You get aggressive when you do the job. And if you can't, then you might want to look and see if there's other alternatives that are out there. The other thing I would say is this, how often, like you're a street cop, you've been there for 13 years?

Is there another department you could go to? Is there some other way to serve and stay connected? Use your experience in another way. Maybe an area that has a little less probability of getting killed. Again, you've got to look if that's something you'd really want to do. So ultimately, and I tell this to people a lot, is there's only one person that can make this decision, and it's not me. The only person that can make this decision is you. So think through it.

Be thoughtful. You can even talk about it with your boys, depending on how old they are. But you can talk about it with them. Explain to them. And, you know, see what they say. You know, obviously, there's one way that conversation could go, hey, would you guys be, would you guys want me to die?

Right. Of course, what are they going to say? Oh my gosh, quit that job immediately. We don't want you to do that. Right? So you're going to have to think about I don't know what the ages of your kids are But you're gonna have to think through that one whether how you address it with them but Certainly I always look at it that

There's risk at everything you do you might as well take risk doing something that you love doing and that you know is helping other people and you know setting a good example For your boys and if that doesn't make sense cool find a not find a different job Next question. I was young boy living in a foster home and was sexually assaulted by my foster father and sometimes other people over a course of a couple years. I was eventually adopted and what had happened to me was never discussed and I never got help for it. I was afraid of everything and eventually I played sports in high school and felt less afraid. Went into the army and felt completely unafraid of anything. When I got out, I got into a long-term relationship.

I told my then girlfriend what had happened to me. She was the first person I ever told about this. She convinced me to reach out to my foster parents, and I did. And it was a total disaster. It kept my room where all this bad stuff had happened exactly the same as it was 20 years prior when these horrors had occurred. I had my moment to confront this monster that had done this to me, and I failed. I used a word that he always said to me,

which was, I used a word that he always said to me when he was assaulting me. He just said, sometimes people change. All of a sudden, I was a weak young boy again. And I couldn't fight back. I left the house and had serious self-doubt. Eventually, I became a cop. And then a detective and effaced all types of bad people,

from junkies to murderers. I even get full confessions out of a child rapist. I'm sick to my stomach afterwards. It's terrible to hear what these animals do. My question is this. Recently, the past has come back with a vengeance. I can't get through a short time, maybe an hour or two, without thinking about the past and my failure.

The only time I have peace is when I absolutely destroy myself working out. I consider it punishing myself and feel better when I do it. How can I stop this, or at least manage it better? So this is I mean obviously a horrible situation and you know horrible that you had to live through this and that any kid or anyone any human would have to go through this As far as How you can manage this better I'm gonna go a little bit here so

One of the blocks of training that we go through in a seal platoon is called close quarters combat. And this is the training. You're in a thing called the kill house. It's ballistic walls. There's targets in there. You're moving around dynamically. You're shooting live fire ammunition.

There's people six inches away from you. You're taking really close shots. There's a lot of pressure in there. There's a lot of details, a lot of standard operating procedures and safety procedures that you have to follow. There's a lot of process. It's like, do you need to go left or right? Is that a good guy or a bad guy?

Because you have to identify the targets. Should you move or should you stay? How do you communicate that you need to move? Should you shoot or should you not shoot at a target? And so there's all these things going on when you enter a room. All these things that you have to go through. All these steps that you have to take, all these procedures that you have to follow, all these decisions that you have to make.

And it all happens. in a split second. And so in a killhouse, the training cadre is actually above you. Above the, it's not a normal house. The rooms have what we call catwalks above them. So the cadre can be up above you in the catwalks and they're walking around and they're watching you very closely.

It's like watching a football game on TV. You're seeing it from like the perfect view above the person. And they're in the room with you, but they're not in your way at all because they're up on the catwalk. So what happens is when a room entry happens, there's a lot of, you catch a lot of critique from the people in the catwalk.

And they'll say, you know, you could have done this or you could have done that or you could have, you could have moved left or you should have pushed forward or there's, you know, it would have been better if you'd done this other thing. So there's all these different things. And when my cadre was running it, you know, that's what we do.

That's what happened to me when I was cadre. That's what I would do. That's what everyone does. And at some point, I kind of realized that all that stuff is good. And I get it. Like, you've got to get people to run the procedures correctly. But in a certain point, what I would tell guy, like, after a guy was kind of beat down, like he just couldn't get something right or he would, you know, a bunch of people would jump on him about a decision that he made or a movement that he made or whatever.

And I'm not talking about a safety thing because a safety thing. because the safety thing is different. I'm talking about a tactical decision. And when you walk into a room, there's a bunch of tactical decisions you can make. And if there's five different decisions that you could make when you walk into a room, there's something that, you know,

there's one way of doing it that would be like really clean. One would be a little bit less. One might be just as clean as the first one, but it's a different attitude. There's just all these different decisions that you could make. You know, it's like just, A multitude of ways that you could react.

Because that's what this question is, how you reacted in this situation. And eventually, as I would see this with an individual, I would eventually, what I would tell guys is, listen, you did what you did. You did what you did. That's what you did. That's the decision that you made at the time. And you know what? There's different ways you could have done it. You don't like the way you did it.

I don't like the way you did it. Someone, one of the other cadre members doesn't like the way you did it. It doesn't, what I'm saying, it doesn't really matter. First of all, you can't take it back.

You can't go back and undo it. And by the way, you don't get to rehearse these things to a point where you get to do this perfectly because you won't be able to do that. If you rehearsed a move in a room that you had seen before and you rehearsed it 10 times, that's not, that's a totally different game,

right? If I already know what the room can, of and I'm going to rehearse and choreograph the entire movement, that's a different game. That's not decision making. That's just, that's just wrote memorization. We're not talking about that. We're talking about how did you react and what you did is what you did. And you did it for a reason.

What you saw in front of you, you made this decision for a reason. Maybe like, you know, you saw a threat when there wasn't one there or you lost situational awareness. Or you rushed. You went too fast. You tried to rush. and all those things can kind of trip you up. But that's what you did. And you did what you did.

And you can't take it back. So instead of everyone sitting there saying you should have done this and you should have done that, let's do this. Let's see what we can learn from it. Let's see why you did what you did. Let's see why you made that decision. Because once we know why you did something, now we have something that we can work with. have something that we can improve upon that is what I think you need to do in this

situation and really when anyone makes a mistake or has a reaction that they don't like you can't worry you can't continue to worry about something that is already transpired what you have to do is you have to look at it and say what can I learn from it what can I take from this and and how can I take this mistake and make me better. So you could look at this, why did you do that? Right? Maybe you did it because you didn't wanna open up these old wounds.

Maybe you did it because you would have, you confronting this individual would have caused more drama and that more, that drama you, at that moment, you assessed and said, you know what? This drama isn't worth it. Maybe you protected yourself from more drama and that was your instinct. And maybe if you were to start confronting this guy and going crazy, you know, who knows what could have happened.

And maybe it could have taken a turn for the worst. We don't know what the outcome was. We know that you weren't happy with your decision. Understandable. But we don't even know what the other decisions would have led to. So where you're actually getting bogged down and distraught about something that you don't even know if it was a good decision or a bad decision. It feels like it was a bad decision, but you don't know what the outcomes of the other decisions even were. So you can't change the outcome.

of what happened in the past. You can't do it. But what you can do is you can grow from it. That's what you can do. You can learn from it. You can actually take that scenario and you can mentally replay it in your head and you can figure out

if possibly there would have been or could have been a better outcome. Or maybe that that outcome that you had wasn't that bad or maybe it leads somewhere else. We don't know yet. But that's, that's where you are at right now. You can't change the outcome of something that has occurred in the past.

Now, I'm going to throw a little dichotomy at you right now. And I'm going to say something that's a little bit, it might be a little bit hard to understand. I'm going to try and talk my way through it. Because while you can't change the past, What you can change is you can absolutely change the way that the past is perceived. So let me give you a detached example, just another example. If you had an individual, someone gets fired from a job.

They get fired from their job. And when they get fired from the job, what it does is their confidence goes down and they get depressed and they decide they're not going to even apply for a new job because I don't even know if I deserve it, get a new job, and they sit around, and eventually they go on and apply for kind of like a lesser job. And, you know, who knows? Maybe they start drinking to relieve some of their depression, and now they're late, and now they end up on a downward spiral.

We would look at them being fired as something that destroyed them and ruined their life. That's how we would perceive it. Hey, the individual got, they were doing fine. Then they got fired. And now they lost their confidence. It got depressed. They started drinking. They didn't apply for good jobs.

And now their life is totally different. And it's a bad place. We would perceive that them getting fired did that to them. But if that person, if a person got fired from their job and instead, it was like a wake-up call for them. And they immediately applied for a bunch of other jobs. and maybe they didn't get those because they had just been fired, but maybe they took a lesser job, a lower paying job, but they got in there,

and they had realized they had made a mistake, and they started getting after that, like they'd never gotten after it before. They started working as hard as they possibly could and got promoted, and then got promoted again, and just dominated in those positions, and went even harder, and dominated even more,

and eventually took over the whole company. And this isn't crazy. This isn't too far-fetched. This can happen. But if that happened, that same incident, the firing of this individual would be perceived in a totally different way. It would be perceived as a catalyst that changed their life for the better. And there are all kinds of examples like that in the world. The past can't be changed.

But the past can change you for the better. or it can change you for the worse. And my question is, why not make it for the better? Why not make the past change you for the better? You hear the term, you hear the term narrative thrown around these days, especially like in political circles. You'll hear it on the news that narratives, they're created in the political arena.

And what the narrative does is it supports, an overarching aim or an overarching value or an overarching goal. That's the way people use the term narrative right now. But I'm not talking about that type of political narrative. What I'm saying here is that you actually write the narrative of what happened in your past. I'm not talking about a fabrication of it. I'm talking you get to write the narrative of where it takes you. You get to write the narrative.

You get to write the reality of where you end up. You get to write it. You get to control it. So what I'm saying is control it. Get control of that narrative. Take control of that narrative. That horrible story in your past, Ends the way that you want it to end.

You control the narrative. You control that story. So make that story good. Make that story epic. Make that story and make the direction that your life goes. Make it heroic. How I think you can get control or maybe handle better

some of that horrific stuff. That you've been through. And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So echo Charles, speaking of being heroic, speaking of controlling our own narrative of the past, of the present, of the future. What can we do to write that heroic story for ourselves? Yes

Well Let's start with The path We're stay on the path We're going to get on the path We're going to be on the path So part of the path is Jiu-Jitsu of course Like we've said

Many times You're going to need a gee What Ghee to get I got interviewed the other day Cool And The guy kind of sets up this kind of big question Sure

He says you know In this day and age And I'm not going to do him justice He was a great question. It was a nice question. I get it. And I'm not going to do it as eloquently as he did it. But the question was about, you know, in this day and age when men, and it was one of those like men like type things, this day and age when men are, you know, can be isolated and can get depressed and don't have meaning and all this stuff, right?

What do you, you know, what do you recommend to men that feel that way, that feel isolated and feel alone and feel depressed? and feel like they don't have meaning in their life and feel like they can't connect with anyone. And I was like, oh cool, yeah, go to Jiu-Jitsu classes. Yeah. And I felt bad because they wanted me to give like the big, profound thing about where to find meaning in your life. And what I said was, yeah, start training Jiu-Jitsu.

Because the thing that he grabbed me with is like, oh, you know, you want to have a goal, you want to have meaning, you want to connect with people, you don't want to be alone, loneliness, and all this stuff. I'm like, yeah, yeah, go train J-Jitsu. All those problems get solved right there. Yeah, they do.

Right? All of a sudden, you got people to hang out with, you got a mission, you got fitness going on, you got meaning. It's all kinds of good stuff going on. Yeah. So go train some jiu-jitsu is what I'm saying. Yeah. Good place to start. That's one of those deals too with, like you leave jiu-jitsu with something.

Not just fitness and better health and stuff. You leave with like a skill that just feeds into your whole soul, especially man-manliness thing. Oh, man. The capability to defeat another man in a fight. And we'll have to see, we'll have to check in with some of our females because when I talk to our female jiu-jitsu practitioners, they might even feel a little bit better because they get to like choke men. No doubt about it. So, yeah. Yeah.

So what we're saying basically is try training some jiu-jitsu. Look, is it a cure-all? Yeah. Kind of. Kind of a little bit. For certain people in certain situations, I think, yeah, I think so. I have a feeling when I leave jihitsu after I get done training that I feel good. Yes, sir.

Just think about that. Just think if I gave you a pill that said, oh, if you just take this pill, you'll feel good. You just, you'll just round lead, you'll just feel good. Yeah. But there's no, in fact, the only side effects are that you'll be a little healthier and you'll have a, you'll have a quality skill. that you can utilize in the real world. Just take this pill.

Would you take the pill? Who wouldn't? Sure. What I'm saying is you get to go to Jiu-Git-Soo. Yeah. Is it harder than taking a pill? Sure, but is it harder to eat a steak or eat a pill? Steak, technically.

Technically, it's harder to eat a steak. Which one would you rather do? Eat a steak. I'd rather eat a steak, and I'd rather change J-Jitsu than take a pill. Me too. So get on that train, the Jiu-Jitsu train. Get on the Jiu-Train,

and you're gonna do ghee and no-gee. So, what kind of Gidi to get you to get? get you get the best key question answer i realized i like dramatically interrupting you sometimes yeah it's good i dig it too sometimes so so the gu origin origin main dot com this is where you can get your gie many different options they come out with new ones is pretty cool pete's very creative with that stuff yeah i encourage pete to continue that creativity and keep it on that level as well anyway don't encourage him no no no not Encourage all encourage and a compliment as well.

So yes, origin main.com, you can get your ghee. You can get a rash card too if you want. Also some shirts on there, some joggers and whatnot. Supplements as well. What about just for what if you were going to go see a movie? Can you wear your ghee to a movie? Oh, well, no. Okay, can you wear your ghee to a dinner date with your wife?

No, I know. No, you can't. So what do we do with origin then? All right. Yes. Well, the good news is we got some American denim. We got jeans. Some jeans.

Yeah, origin jeans. Boom. Yeah, those are good, man. Those came out really, really good. I think those are going to go places. This one, I will give Pete some leeway for his creativity. Because he did this thing with the yoke of the jeans. You know what the yoke is?

No. It's a little piece of, it's like right. below the waistband and there's two types of different yokes you can have reverse yoke or or regular yoke i guess it's always it's it makes it so that the pants fit a certain way and then he lined up the tops of the pockets with the reverse yoke which means that they're slanted a little bit like the old school vietnam pockets okay so anyways that's cool they're legit yeah they're just like a little bit you know what i'm gathering details going on i'm gathering that you're starting to appreciate Pete's fashion sense that's what I'm gathering

saying occasionally no no no because here's the deal the pockets because they're at a little angle they're there easier to get your hand in and out of which what I'm saying is there is a functionality because if it didn't if it wasn't functional I wouldn't be talking about it right now no because we don't talk about things like that but they look dope is what I'm saying I think you're starting to appreciate that on what I'm saying is I think I think Pete did it not for functionality. I think Pete did it because it looked cool.

And then I commend his creativity because, not because it looked cool, but because it provides a level of functionality that does not previously exist in genes anywhere. Boom. So what? I agree with you. I agree with the whole deal, the whole gig. And man, yeah. Yeah, those are good.

American denim. By the way, all made in America. Yes. The cotton is made in America. Grown. What about the, things that you put you fasten the um your waist with the buttons yeah the buttons origin buttons cotton just look at a picture of the buttons that's enough to be like all

sold to begin with they're pretty dope they're very dope actually plus we got supplements as you were just about to say yes supplements important supplements not this mega mass what was that one old school era mega mass 5 000 it was a big number unless it's not like that well i guess kind because milk is that additional. Way cleaner. Clean protein, slow release. Brayden did a really good. But let's face it, it just tastes good.

Yes. Well, it doesn't just taste it. It tastes good. That might be, what's that word? That might be the number one priority or the number one benefit. The fact that it's the best protein you can actually get is awesome too.

Yeah, cool. Well, you can eat a steak if you want protein as well. So there's various different. But you can't always eat a steak. That's the problem. Sometimes you're, They're like on the go. Sometimes you got to get.

Sometimes it's, you got work to do. You have time to eat a steak. Sometimes you just want a dessert too. Let's face it. Come on, bro. Let's face it. So boom. Definitely facing it.

There you go. So yeah, some mocha is like that. But the joint warfare, krill oil, these are for your joints. Keep your joints in the game. If you're for real getting after it,

like especially in the gym and doing jiu-jitsu, man, the joint warfare and the cruel oil is going to keep you in the game. Big time. It's going to help you out a lot. Huge time. as we say don't forget about the warrior kid milk as well yeah which is which is tasty and why not feed your kid something that's actually going to be good for them

instead of feeding them literal poison yeah gummy bears yeah sugar check unless yes and discipline as well if you want some cognitive enhancing elements infused into your brain get some discipline that's a good one get yourself some jocco white teeth as well. Yeah. That's if you want to have a massive deadlift in excess of 8,000 pounds. Check. Yeah. Also, it's certified organic. So that's something. Also,

we have a store. It's called Jocko store. We can get the T on the store too. We have the tea on the store. But also on the store, jocco store.com this is where you can get shirts. If you want to represent on the path, discipline equals freedom. You can get after it.

You know, simple stuff. I chose quality shirts over cheap quantity shirts. So when you get this shirt as it should be. As it should be, right? So if you get this shirt and you recognize that, dang, this could very well be

my favorite shirt just to wear just the fit and the feel of the shirt. I won't be surprised. In fact, I'd be surprised if it's not. That's my opinion. Unless, there's some good stuff on there. There's rash guards on there. Some hats. Flex fit and snapback trucker hats.

Some hoodies, lightweight and heavyweight. Some good stuff on there. Anyway, if you want something, get something. It is jocco store.com. Also, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. If you want to go ahead and smash the subscribe button. Probably not doing that anymore. That joke over?

That was the last one. Last one. All right. No more. So if you want to subscribe, you can click the subscribe button. I guess if you're going to remind someone to do something, in regards to subscribing, it'd be more on the YouTube thing

to do the notification bell if they want to be notified because that's not just a given when you subscribe. I don't know. Some people might not know that. This is what I'm saying. Okay, I'm definitely a person

that did not know that. All right. Well, there you go. So yeah, subscribe, whatever, Twitter, or not Twitter, sorry, Stitcher, Google Play iTunes, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

Also, don't forget the Warrior Kid podcast. Three new releases. Yep. 24, 25, and 26. Boom. Including an Instagram. interview with John Bozak, the illustrator, the drawer of pictures of all the Worried Kid books, including Mikey and the Dragons.

Anyway, yeah, very interesting on that one, especially if you're into any kind of creative thing, he kind of demonstrates it or talks about the process and the frustration. It's good. I actually liked it a lot. Also, Warrior Kid Soap, Irish Oaks Ranch.com. This is where you can get Jocko Soap, Trooper Soap, all made by Warrior Kid Aiden. In the United States, by the way. Does you have some kind of motto or anything with that?

Yeah, like it's a slogan. What is it? A slogan. Stay clean. Sorry, bro. I don't say it all like crazy like you, whatever, but best stay clean. Simple to the point, right? Yeah.

All good. I was not impressed with you. I know. Your job there. I'm doing the best I can, you know? Anyway, like I mentioned, we have a YouTube channel as well. Jock Podcasts, YouTube channel. If you were interested in the video version of this, this year,

situation. And some excerpts on there, some enhanced excerpts on there, too. If you want to look at them, it's good. Psychological warfare, it's out there. iTunes, Google Play, MP3, get it. Don't forget about the visual versions of psychological warfare from Flipside Canvas.com, which is run by my brother Dakota Meyer. You might want to check that one out as well.

Yeah. Discipline equals freedom. Yeah. Yeah, we have posters. Right, which is cool. Like, you know, you hang them in your gym and whatever, but it's like one, two, maybe three levels higher than the poster is like, you know, can you hang on your wall, in your home.

You can put up in your office. Clearly, you could put these things up. They are legit. And we got some Warrior Kid posters art coming as well, because they're not just posters. They're like, yeah, they're like, yeah, the quality. Also, on it, on it.com slash jockel. Go that king.

On it, this is where you can get, what, kettlebells, like fitness stuff. So, you know, some cool supplements, some greens, some food items, you know. This is where I get my kettlebells. Actually, like pretty much all my home gym stuff aside from like the dumbbell sets. I get from On It. All of it, go on there, on it.com slash jock. Get something. And got some books too.

I've written a bunch of them. Way the Warrior Kid, where there's a will. That's number three of that book. That is live. So get that for your kid. also get the Way of the Warrior Kid One and the Way of the Warrior Kid 2, which is called Mark's Mission. These books are good.

These are the books I wish I had when I was a kid. They would have just put me on the path at a younger age. Mikey and the Dragons, you can order that one now as well. That is, for a little bit younger age, maybe three, four, five, six. Sure. Through 70. Yeah, I would agree with that. Just one of those Freedom Field Manual.

All the little questions that you want to ask me about, Everything is answered in that book. The Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual. How to get after it. The audio version is not on Audible. It's on iTunes. It's on Amazon music. It's on Google Play.

Other MP3s. And those are questions that you might have about life, about my personal operating system. If you have questions about leadership, check out extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership. I referenced them both today. And I referenced them all. the time written by me and my brother Laif Babin about the experiences we had overseas.

Now you can take those experiences and apply them to the leadership in your life and world. We also have Eschalon Front, which is our leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. You can go to Eschelonfront.com for details on that. If you want to get some additional training online, you go to EFonline.com. and that's where we have all the echelon front instructors teaching classes online interactive classes check that one out if you want to go more granular and then we have the muster which is a conference gathering a leadership gathering the next one is in Denver September 19th and 20th

and then in Sydney Australia December 4th and 5th check extreme ownership dot com for details all of the musters have sold out and these will too so get there early and of course we have eF overwatch where we are taking spec ops and combat aviation leaders and placing them into civilian companies that need leadership eFoverwatch.com if you want to hire someone from special operations or your former special operations and you would like to work in the civilian sector go to eFoverwatch.com follow the instructor and so we will hook it up and if you feel like you want to cruise with us just a little bit more you can find us both on the interwebs on Twitter on Instagram and on the vase book echo is at echo Charles and I am at jaco willing and thanks to all of you

that make this podcast possible first those of you in the armed services who put your honor and duty above yourselves and protect freedom around the world and to all the police officers and law enforcement to the firefighters the paramedics the EMTs the dispatchers the correctional officers the border patrol secret service and all the other first responders each of you do the same you place the welfare of others above the welfare of yourself in order to keep us safe so thanks for what you do and the rest of you that are out there thanks for the support that you all give us you are the fuel that keeps this train moving literally we appreciate it and also remember this no matter what happened in the past you control the narrative you write the story that you want to

write you give yourself the role that you want make your thoughts in that story filled with discipline and make your actions make them nothing short of heroic and then step out into the world and get after it and until next time this is echo and jaco out