Jocko Podcast - 189: Adaptability Is The Law That Governs Survival in War and In Life. USMC TACTICS PT.3 w/ Dave Berke.

Episode Date: August 7, 2019

0:00:00 - Opening 0:04:03 - MCDP 1-3: Tactics  1:37:34 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:38:39 - Support: How to stay on THE PATH. 2:03:26 - Closing Gratitude.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 189 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. And joining us once again is Dave Burke. Good evening, Dave. Good evening. And on the last two podcasts, Dave and I dug into the first four chapters of the Marine Corps doctrinal publications, NCDP, 1, TAC, 3 Tactics.

So if you haven't listened to those podcasts, go start there. and if you have listened to them, then we are diving into chapter five. You and I were talking over the weekend about how you read these in the basic school versus how you read them now or how you read it this time around. Yeah. There's a pretty big difference. Yeah, there's a huge difference. I was saying when you asked about had I read these, and I read them, we got handed to them in a stack of pups. So all the Marine Corps manuals is probably a foot high stack of these white books, those little booklets. And at the time, it was a chore.

It was like something I had to do to pass a test. I didn't look for any real content. I was looking for the answers of the test and that was about it. It wasn't until I went back and looked at them again with a totally different set of eyes on how, man, so many things I could have learned if I actually read it differently the first time. there's I mean I think it has to do when you can overlay your own experience on it is what makes it more makes the lessons more obvious but these books are written so clearly they're so straightforward they're so straightforward so clear and and it's it's it's amazing that the Marine Corps can pull this off because normally you would think to yourself okay if I told you okay Dave you me

and eight of our friends are going to write a book by committee. It would be a total nightmare. It would not come out good. It would be the most convoluted and confusing thing ever. And it would be a total disaster. The Marine Corps, somehow, I would love to go in. I would love to see how they did this. I would love to see how they did this.

Because what I imagine had to have happened, there was one single human that had a good grip on the, vision and said, okay, and everyone else, this is the most important part, everyone else kind of respected that vision and respected that person. Yep. I don't even know who that person was. They had to, to pull this off in the Marine Corps, they had to be someone, for lack of a better word, they had to be someone legit.

To be in there and say, okay, listen, no, we're leaving out that section and not have everyone up in arms and big debates. Yeah, and you couldn't have a bunch of guys that wanted to put their little spin on it. to make it their own thing. They wanted it. And all eight chapters, I guess there's a tiny, a little bit of nuance

and some of them be a little bit different. But it almost as if the same person, I know it's not one guy, but it says the same thing all the way through the same theme. And there's not one chapter in there that is, oh, this is too complex,

or this doesn't really get to the point. They're all the same. And what you described, I've been in some of those meetings, not to write a publication. Everything's done by committee. You get five guys in a room and you do this

and somebody defers to somebody else, but there's a vision on this from the first word to the last word that is throughout. And it requires actually people recognizing, hey, that guy's ideas that that's what we're doing. And everybody gets around and behind that. Yeah. So not only is it amazing, the amount of intelligence and knowledge that was in the room, but the amount of humility for someone to listen to someone else say, hey, I just wrote this part. I just wrote these three sentences.

And for someone else to sit in the back of the room and go, you know what? Those are good. Leave them how they are. There's a massive amount of humility in writing this thing and putting this thing together. So let's go back to the book, Chapter 5. Chapter 5 is called adapting. Starts off with a couple quotes. Victory smiles upon those who anticipate the changes in the character of war,

not upon those who wait to adapt themselves after they occur. Hmm, that's Giulio duet, which I'm sure I'm saying wrong, some, an Italian, an Italian general who is a air power theorist. You probably learned about him in some somewhere along your course of life. Yeah, for sure. Because he was early on. He was talking, we're talking biplane air power. That's what he was talking about. air power could break the will of the enemy is kind of one of his one of his theories which is true to a point to a point to a point it's true all right next quote in any problem where an opposing force exists and cannot be regulated one must foresee and provide for alternative courses adaptability is the law which governs survival in wars as in life war being but a concentrated form of the human strength

Struggle against the environment. Hmm. B. H. Liddell Hart. So all those times, what's one of my quote? I have a quote, right? I'm quoting myself, but I've said this for a long time. I think the quote is, combat reflects life only amplified and intensified.

So B.H. Liddell Hart, who's British soldier, World War I, military historian, a very prolific military theorist. He said it even better than me. Wars a concentrated form of the human struggle against the environment. So you have to be able to adapt. That's the name of this chapter.

And here we go. It kicks off. The modern battlefield is characterized by friction, uncertainty, disorder, and rapid change. I like working an environment that's characterized by friction, uncertainty, disorder, and rapid change. Those are like the things that horrify all human beings. Uncertainty, everyone hates that. Disorder at most people hate that and rapid change everyone hates that and that's what as a military Human that's what you got to be that's what you got to be ready for and that's what you got to

Train for and that's what you got to be For lack of order you got to learn to love that stuff. Yeah. I mean what in life that you do that matters isn't characterized by those words Something that's actually important. Yeah Each situation is a unique combination of shifting factors that cannot be controlled with precision or certainty This chapter discusses ways to think about adapting or modifying our decisions based on changed circumstances or sudden opportunities. A tactically proficient leader must be able to adapt actions to each situation. The Utilup discussed in Chapter 4 essentially describes the process of adaptation. We observe the situation, orient to it, decide what to do and act.

The antagonist who can consistently adapt more quickly to the situation will have a significant advantage. adaptability is thus an important part of Marine Corps tactics. There's something you don't think of every day, that adaptability is literally part of Marine Corps tactics. In essence, adaptability means shortening the time it takes to adjust to each new situation. We see this with businesses all the time, businesses that either adapt and win or don't adapt and lose. Yeah, we see businesses that they'll lay out a...

plan, they'll have this big strategy, this is how I see things going. And the ones that stick to that and refuse to adjust and recognize that their environment is changing, they force themselves around that initial plan and don't adjust. They fail. And the connection from combat to business, we make that connection all the time. And it's the exact same thing is your plan is going to change. Your world is going to change quickly and you better adapt. And if you can, you'll be fine. You'll be successful. And if you can't, it's not going to work. If you don't have humility, you won't adapt because you're going to think that the way you're doing it is fine. Yeah. That's that's probably the biggest thing that upholds people from adapting

is their they're not, they're just, their ego is so big that they're thinking I don't need to change. People who aren't humble can't change, period. Because they think they got everything figured out, they got everything right, and they don't change. And that's the recipe for failure. It's all throughout this book. Back to the book, there are two basic ways to adapt. Sometimes we have enough situational awareness to understand a situation in advance and take preparatory action. This is anticipation. At other times we have to adapt the situation on the spur of the moment without time for preparation. This is improvisation. To be fully adaptable, we must be able to do both. And this is one of those things where I was listening to, I was listening to Jordan

Peterson yesterday. And he was talking about how there's like the creative people and then the other side of the spectrum is, I don't even know, the conscientious people. And most people are either creative or their conscientious, meaning that they'll do what they're told, they'll do it to the best of their ability, they're very duty focused, they're very reliable. The creative people, obviously, are like none of those things. And he was saying, creative people are poor. You know, this basic thing. is if you're creative, you're not building a future. You're not doing reliable things on a disciplined basis. And occasionally, you get people that are highly disciplined and creative and

they'll be successful. Sometimes you get people that are highly creative. And he said there's this tiny percentage of people that are wildly successful, creative people, right? Some songwriter, some artist, some filmmaker that's, and oftentimes they're crazy. And you see this with fighters too, like a wildly, creative fighter, they're, they're, if they're, that small percentage that they're going to be successful in fighting, but a lot of times they're, the rest of their life is not in good order.

Right. Right. It is not in good order. So I've said this that your standard military guy, girl, whoever, if they are on the far end of conscientious, they'll be really, really good. Like, oh, yeah, they're going to get promoted. They're going to do as they're told. They're going to follow the orders.

And they're being good. I'm not saying that in a negative way at all. Like they're squared away. And it's awesome. And they're great to work for. They want to do a good job. But they get like capped out at a certain point because they don't have that spark of creativity that they can look at a rapidly changing situation and go, I know what we're going to do.

So occasionally. And a lot of times those people that are creative are too creative for the military. And they end up leaving because they can't stand the constraints that are put on them. So, you know, even when you read about people like Pat and people that were wildly successful, they were, and they were regimented and creative at the same time. So interesting dichotomy that you try to have to kind of have to have or if you really want to take it to the next level. Back to the book, anticipation. The first basic way to adapt is to anticipate by which we mean to introduce new methods.

schemes and techniques for future use. In order to anticipate we must be able to forecast future actions at least to some extent. Our forecasts are usually based on past experiences. Often a forecast involves considering what we learned through trial and error in training, exercises, or actual combat. An excellent example of anticipation is the Marine Corps' development of amphibious warfare techniques at Quantago during the 1920s and 30s. These techniques proved to be essential to success in World War II in both the Pacific and in Europe. All planning at all echelons is a form of anticipatory adaptation, adapting our actions in advance.

Another important tool for tactical adaptation is the use of immediate action drills or standard operating procedures. Why do I always call it standard operating procedure? They called it standing operating procedures. You think that's a misprint? You think a misprint made it through the Marine Corps? It's always been standard as far as I know. This is standing operating.

I think we have a little misprint. We'll write to the editor. Standard operating procedures. These are practice, pre-designed, generic actions which cover common situations. Having a collection of these tools at our disposal allows us to react immediately in a coordinated way to a broad variety of tactical situations. Immediate action drills do not replace the need for tactical judgment. They merely provide a way to seize initiative in the early stages of developing us of a developing situation until we can take more

Considered action they provide the basis for adaptation Very important to have some good standard operating procedures With martial arts in the early 90s in the in the in the SEAL teams they were experimenting with a lot of different martial arts and And part of some of the systems that they brought in was they just had a standard immediate action drill that you were going to go through. If X happened, you were going to throw nine throat punches followed by a kick to the groin, followed by a face rake. They just, and if you, if you did that, if someone walks up to you in a bar and shoves you

and you deliver nine punches to the throat, a face rake, kick to the groin. And like, and people say, yeah, it works. Well, you know what? You're right. That's, that's actually true. If you have a standard operating procedure that you're going to go to that's just hyper aggressive in a street fight, there's a decent chance that's going to work. Unfortunately, once that initial volley's over, if you're not ready to adapt to that person

that covers up, grabs a hold of your whatever, and starts to maneuver on you, well, then you're going to have a problem. So there's a, there's a chance that's going to work. But you have to be able to. adapt afterwards. Same thing in a firefight. You know, someone starts shooting at you. We know the, the Vietnam guys taught us in a closed environment like the jungle where there's no other friendly forces around. You're in a squad of seal, a squad of seals of eight guys. You get contacted. Everyone drops down in their field of fire and dumps a magazine. Tilt was talking about that.

The Frenchmen were talking about that. They would drop down. Man, it was crazy. You hear that story where he says they all dump their mags at the same time and then there's silence as everyone's trying to do a mag change. silence which probably felt like 14 years was probably probably three seconds it was probably three seconds and and and but that's the standard out same standard operating procedures oh we just got contacted we're gonna lay down some lead so you get that really good aggressive immediate action drill then you have to be able to learn how to think and that's where some of those early martial arts

systems they succeeded in that initial volley and then the adaptation piece If it went beyond that, we're talking mission failure. We used to teach a Top Gun. I talked about this a lot when we would have, you'd have a tactical situation. SOPs for your reaction is when you didn't know what to do. So if you looked at a situation and didn't really understand what you should do, you still have to do something.

Going wings level and flying straight ahead is a death sentence. So our SOP for reaction to being shot at was what we called lift vector on and pull. Basically means point of the guy, pull as hard as you can. Wait, what's pull do? pull closes the distance between the two views and moves the airplane from the piece of sky that you're into some other piece of sky and makes the closure happen as fast as you can to try to minimize the distance what you're trying to create a separation so if i get separation from you i can attack you and i if i'm the defender i want to close that separation and bring that fight down as close as i can but the reality is that me putting my lift factor on and pulling towards you isn't the right answer what i actually need to do is figure out i apply that s opi and as soon as i do that i need to engage my brain and think okay now where do i need to really go which is maybe up and after or some other reaction. The SOP and an airplane was that maneuver, which is no different than dump your mag.

It was to close the gap of time until you actually figured out what's going on, what's a situation, and that's the adaptation you're talking about. The SOP really was just a gap filler until you could get your brain engaged to doing the right thing. So you want to close the distance on the enemy? You want to get closer to them.

Yeah, so if I am, let's say you and I are crossing each other and you're going to shoot at me. And I see that you're in a position to employ a weapon. against me. I actually want to close the distance between you and me as fast as I can to get inside your weapons range as quickly as possible. Because if I extend away from that or do nothing, you get more opportunity to get to a more advantageous position. But me pulling directly towards you isn't the right answer. If I knew what the right answer was, I wouldn't be here in the

first place. So my SOP is I have to close the distance right away. And the good pilots, the amount of time sometimes would take a half a second before they adjust that maneuver. But that immediate action, that SOP is lift vector on and pulling an airplane. Would you ever be able to be ahead of your SOP? In other words, you're laughing like I'm in. Yeah, no, no, I'm laughing because I think you know the answer. Depending on who you're fighting. If I'm fighting someone who's not as experienced and hasn't seen this before

and doesn't have that roll decks of can't anticipate because he hasn't seen it, I'm never reacting. I'm never reacting to what he's doing. I'm always not just out in front of him. I'm moves out in front of him. But if I was fighting against a guy who was at my level or better, there are times he would do things that I had to react to. And the time frame that takes me to react to an SOP to the right thing,

the short of that time frame, the more likely is I'm going to be successful. And if I don't know what to do and I just spend the entire fight, lift, vector on, and pull, I'm going to lose. And that SOP was something that eventually you actually got past and almost never had to do it because you weren't there in the first place. You were thinking moves ahead to get there. Yeah. So that's a good thing to think about too.

And it's a good thing to think about from a self-defense perspective, martial arts-wise, like you should have some standard operating procedures, some immediate action drills that you're going to do that are just going to get you. And, you know, closing the distance for a jih Tzu guy is real instinctive. If you watch the UFC or whatever, a wrestler or a jih Tijuana or a jih Tzu-gui-t guy, once they start getting banged up and they don't really know what to do, their instincts take over and they just shoot and close the distance and try and get in. That's not always the best thing in a street fight. In fact, it often isn't. What we want to do is break contact. So, you know, think about that.

Think about that with your jiu-jitsu coach, your martial arts instructor. What is your move going to do? What's your immediate action drill when someone gets in your face, when someone grabs you? How are you going to break contact and get away? Have a good SOP

and a good immediate action drill for that. All right. Same thing with boxing, by the way. You know, when you see a guy in trouble in boxing, you'll try to hug them, even though that's not part of necessarily the boxing part. But, oh, yeah,

that's the thing to get them out of it. trouble yeah so he can how you say like you want to get you're using your brain and read you you actually want to get inside the range of their weapons systems systems yeah exactly in Muay Thai that doesn't work quite as well because you get inside and you're getting elbowed in the face or you're getting kneaded in the ribs yeah no good you caught a knee to the rib before yes sir oh yeah that's not fun no it's not you don't even when you're watching a Muay Thai fight because they're so hardcore yeah they get knead in the rib and you think oh that must not hurt real bad yeah well here's the thing in

this is an actual like thing you can't show when you you get hurt right like if you get hitting the legs legs sucks too by oh yeah yeah yeah yeah much anything in the ribs sucks 100% but yeah that knee the oh yeah it's bad but you can't show pain in muay like literally that's kind of the rule like if you show pain it's like you fundamentally didn't follow the protocol you know you see I'm saying it's like an official thing because when they see the pain they're just gonna go if you go oh dang that leg kick hurt even if you just go like this go like that or you Even limp on it or if you're in the UFC and you smile

Which is your wife saying oh no that didn't hurt Yeah, everyone knows oh yes it did and you see the leg kicks just keep coming like Dang they're taking like even more leg kicks to that same leg every time It's like that's the SOP you see the little pain on the guy's face or whatever you just keep hitting that thing But yeah there's another SOP in Thailand that I learned about well it's it's maybe it's not in Thailand but it's definitely with Thai food in America You ever eat Thai food? Yes sir. All right so I get you know I I I I will up the lever of spice. Sure.

One to 10 at the Thai restaurant that I go to. And over a year, I went, you know, from five to seven to nine. One time I went in there. And nine, you know, no factor. Eight, no factor. Like, tastes good. I went in there one time. And she said, well, what type of spice would you like today, sir?

And I said, 10. They made me something that was psycho. Like, it was almost inedible. I ate it just out of. Shear ego. Yeah, ego. I just ate it, but I would my mouth was on fire. Yeah, and so the waitress like when I ordered it, she kind of looked at me like this is not a good move But I didn't what I didn't realize so then the next time I came I said hey Last time I came I you know I asked for 10. I don't want 10 again. I said when I asked for 10 is that like an insult slash challenge to the kitchen? Yeah, and she said oh yes

So don't order 10 unless you want your face to be on fire. And that makes sense too because when you're over here like nine, no factor, you know, 10 should be incrementally should be consistent. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the way nine was, 10 should have been a little bit more. Right. So the difference between 8 and 9 or even at least establish some sort of a pattern. You see what I'm saying?

Like if the increment between 8 and 9 is like a 4, maybe 9 and 10 is like an 8. Okay, I dig it. But they saw that Falong. That's the, in Thailand, they call it. call the foreigners Falong. I think it means foreign. Yeah. Derogatorily or just,

just that's just how. I wouldn't say super positive, but no, it's, it's, it's, because you know, when you go to Thailand and the Falongs go to,

they, the Falong, like a drunk European dude says, I'll fight that little Thai guy. Put me in the ring with him. And they go, okay. And they put the big

German dude in there, whatever, who's not a fighter. He's just a guy who's 200, and 238 pounds of beer and they put him in there against a 142 pound tie kid that just hacks him apart with with leg kicks him and just annihilates him so anyways so that was you at the tire at the tire I got hacked two pieces not with leg kicks but with whatever spice they put in there so use caution back to the book improvisation so this is the other form the second basic way to adapt is to improvise to adjust to a situation on the spur of the moment without any preparation like anticipation improvisation is the key to maneuver

warfare improvisation requires creative intelligence intelligent and experienced leaders who have an intuition intuitive appreciation for what will work and what will not improvisation is of critical importance to increasing speed it requires command who have a strong situational awareness and a firm understanding of their senior commander's intent so that they can adjust their own actions in accordance with the higher commander's desires Often we will find ourselves in a situation to where our organic resources weapons vehicles and so on are not adequate to keep us moving fast in France 1940 German General Heinz Girdian put some of his infantry in commandeered French buses. On Grenada, when Army Rangers needed vehicles,

they took East German trucks belonging to the Grenadian army. Sound unorthodox, there is nothing orthodox about failure due to an inability to adapt. Improvisation. And this is one of those ones where you, this is where you start to see a leader that can't, that doesn't have the creative aspect to him. thought process. This is where you see. When the situation demands true improvisation,

this is where you see a little crack in the, in the armor of the highly conscientious, conscientious leader. Yeah, that's the guy you're talking about before. And both of these things should realize that these are both learned things. The ability to anticipate is not just some sort of magical vision that you're born with. It's, they talk about reps over and over again, But even this idea of improvising, it's what the, what has learned there as a recognition is, hey, my skill set here, my bag of tricks, I don't have what I need to actually make happen, what I need to have happen. I understand the intent.

And I don't have the resources at hand. So I actually need to recognize this is the time to improvise. And it's that rigid, conscientious thinking that doesn't allow you to say, you know what? And it's not just totally winging it. It's not just on the fly. It's recognizing I need to come up with a creative solution here because what I have available doesn't work. And those rigid leaders.

who you're talking to. I've seen them throughout my career. They simply don't have that place where they can go. And you have to, at times that are most critical, you have to be able to go there. And the good leaders, that's the creative piece, but they need a beat of a tap into in a career. You know what I notice is, if you can't detach from the situation, you won't be able to be creative. When I'm looking at a problem, I sometimes have to consciously detach from the situation. and take a different look at it. Because what you will see, we all are kind of brainwashed into just pattern recognition

and then applying the appropriate known tested solution. But when you look at something and you don't really see a pattern, what you do is you try and apply a pattern that you've seen in the past. And that's a positive thing. It makes sense. But sometimes that pattern is just too far off. It's just not quite there. And all you'll do is try and apply the,

the prescription that you have to that problem, and it's not going to work out. And for me, when I see a problem, I always have to say, okay, take a step back and look at this from a different angle. Because if you don't do that, if you don't do that, you're not going to see how far off your pattern recognition actually is.

And it can be far off. Yeah. And sometimes, too, that pattern recognition, that is a good thing like you described, tells you, oh, I need, I need air support here. I need heavy machine guns here. Okay, I have the answer. It's like, well, guess what?

You don't have that resource today. That thing that you say you need, it doesn't exist. So what are you going to do now? And that's when you see, you can see people panic in those situations because they don't think there's a solution available to them. And the reality is there is if you can do what you just described, but they think pattern recognition situation dictates this is what I use. And if that tool that they are used to having doesn't exist for them there,

that's when they panic and that's when that's the worst case situation for them is they don't think there's an out. You can actually surround yourself with people that can help you there. You know, you can actually have other people say, hey, I saw this on our way in. I think there's a solution here. And that's where the humility piece requires is, hey, what do you see? Hey, I see this. And somebody else can actually lead you down that road instead of just refusing the budge from your position and setting your whole team up to fail. Not a good plan.

No. Improvaz, back to the book. For instance, take the situation in which Marines of the 2nd Battalion 5th Marine Regiment found themselves in the Battle of Way City, Republic of Vietnam, in February of 1968. One of their first objectives was to retake the city's treasury building, which was heavily defended by the North Vietnamese. Prior to the assault, the Marines were disappointed to see that their mortar fire was having little effect on the building or its defenders. Then the executive officer found some U.S. tear gas canisters and dispensers in the military assistance compound they had reoccupied. Realizing the North Vietnamese lacked gas masks, the Marines proceeded to lob tier gas canisters into the Treasury building. As a result of the executive officer's quick thinking and adaptation, the North Vietnamese quickly vacated the building and the Marines secured the objective with minimal casualties.

that seems real obvious when you're looking back at it. But this is one of those situations where exactly what you were just talking about, if you, I could, and I would say you can watch, and I have watched many military leaders in that exact situation. When I was running training, I saw it all the time.

These guys would, they'd know what the standard operating procedure is, and they would just stick with it. I would give all kinds of answers, would be floating around the battlefield for them, and they wouldn't see them until you learned take a step back. So this is a great example and it seems so obvious, but it's not that obvious when you're in the situation. And when you're emotional about the situation. Yeah, it's really

hard to see that when you're emotional. Back to the book, flexible plans. We have several techniques to help us develop adaptability. One of these is to make flexible plans. Flexible, flexible plans can enhance adaptability by establishing a course of action that provides for multiple options. For example, a blocking position that covers two avenues of approach from the same location instead of only one provides the flexibility to adapt to an enemy coming through either avenue. We can increase our flexibility by providing branches for current and future operations. And those are like little branch plans that just branch off of the main plan. Branches are options, i.e. changing disposition orientation.

strength, movement, or accepting or declining battle to deal with changing conditions on the battlefield that may affect the plan. Flexibility can also be increased by providing sequels for the current and future operations. Sequels are courses of action to follow probable battle or engagement outcomes, victory, defeat, or stalemate. I have a note here that I wrote to myself. And the note that I wrote to myself, it says, it's okay. and I put these in quotes, it's okay, then we will do something else effective that moves us toward our goal.

That's like such a good answer. Oh, we've become stagnant. It's okay. Like think about that from a, from you're in a leadership position or, no, think of it from a subordinate position. You've hit a wall and you can't get through. And you look at your leader and your leader says, it's okay. We're going to do something else that's going to be effective that's going to move us toward our goal. Oh, and that seems, it's really easy to look at these things and say, well, that's real obvious.

I'm telling you, it is not obvious unless you train yourself to start thinking that way. It is not obvious. There's a reason that's in this book. It's in this book because it's hard. As simple as that sounds, build a plan and have a whole bunch of options available to you when your plan doesn't work. That's written down in the Marine Corps Tactics Manual, specifically because they know how hard this is. especially in combat. Yeah.

Back to the book, the value of branches and sequels is that they prepare us for several different actions. We should keep the number of branches and sequels to a relative few. And Laif and I talked about that in the dichotomy of leadership

where people go, okay, you want to see branch plans? I got some branch plans and they create 50 of them. You need three. You need two. You need four. You don't need 50.

Back to the book, we should not try to develop so many branches and sequels that we cannot adequately plan, train, or prepare for them for any of them. And what I found even on top of that is, when you have multiple branches and you rehearse them all, no one knows what's actually happening. You know, if you rehearse, you rehearse your primary, this is what you should do. You should rehearse your primary one like 10 times, your secondary one three times,

and your tertiary one once as a walk through. And you should do them in reverse order. or at least maybe not reverse order, but you practice your primary one five times, three times on your secondary, one time on your tertiary, five more times on your primary. That's where you want them to,

the guys to come out the gate on. Otherwise, you're going to get half the guys doing one and half the guys doing something else. It's a nightmare. Back to the book, the skillful, well-thought-out use of branches and sequels becomes an important means

of anticipating future courses of action. This anticipation helps accelerate the decision cycle and therefore increases the tempo. This idea of anticipation, I mean, what you're saying is that I know what the enemy is going to do. And when you're doing jiu-jitsu and you're good at jiu-jitsu, I used to describe jih Tijuana and I used to say when you're good at jiu-jitsu, you can see the future. Like if I roll with you, Dave, because I've been training for a long time, there's a 90% chance. that I know what you're about to do. Like when you were going up against a top gun student that had just showed up,

there's a, well, do you tell me? No, that's right. There's like a 90% chance that this guy's going to do. When I do this, he's going to do that. There's a, so this idea that you begin to be able to predict what the future holds is, think about it. Think about it. That's what happens in jih Tutsu.

That's what makes you get beaten jiu-jitsu, is the person you're going against. knows what you're going to do and is waiting there for you to do it and submits you. That's what happens with tactics. If you can anticipate what the enemy is going to do, you can be waiting for them. And we used to set operations up like that. Hey, when we set the breach here, that's going to drive people in this direction out of the building. If they try to escape, they're going to go out this back door, this back window.

Boom, we'll be waiting right there for them or whatever. Like, that's how we do it. So this idea of anticipation, man, if you can, if you can, if you can, if you can, you can dedicate a little bit of time to think about what your competitor, what the enemy is going to do, you're going to set yourself up for a, what's the video game term, Echo Charles, for like a total, is it total victory? Flawless victory. I knew there was a better term.

Thank you. You're welcome. I'm glad you're back from Hawaii to give us this information. I never would have known that answer. Yeah, see? Well done. Flexible plans avoid unnecessary. detail that not only consumes time in their development, but has a tendency to restrict subordinates

latitude. How often do we see the leader that thinks that the more detail they put into a plan, the better off they're going to be and the better people are going to understand it? All the time. That comment about your subordinates latitude, the goal should actually be is to tell them what to do the least amount of time and give them the most latitude possible. That should be your goal to let them figure out what it is you're going to do. That comment, the latitude comment is something I thought.

That's so critical for leaders, give your folks latitude to do that. I like the way they just called unnecessary detail. And this is one of those things where in the military, the American attitude of life is if a little is good, then more is better. And if more is better than just max it out to the nth degree. And I saw that over and over again. And we wrote about it in extreme ownership and planning. It's like Leif and Seth were so used to these 200 PowerPoint slide briefs.

And I was telling him, look, we're not doing that. Put a map up on the wall. Talk to guys. Laif and Seth were actually scared for their careers when the commanding officer was coming up to sit in on their briefs. They were worried about what was going to happen to their careers because they wanted to build 200 PowerPoint slides for a brief on a on a reconnaissance in the woods that's what they wanted to do so what they realized is that all that detail all that use they've been driven they thought you know it's somewhere along the line in the in the seal community someone said oh

well you put some good detail in there put more and then a year later someone else was saying put more and then a year later someone was on put more and that's how you end up with 200 slides that no one understand. Totally ridiculous. Back to the book. Instead, flexible plans lay out what needs to be accomplished but leave the manner of accomplishment to subordinates, which is what you just said. This allows subordinates the flexibility to deal with a broader range of circumstances. Flexible plans are plans that can be easily changed. Plans that require coordination are said to be coupled if all parts of a plan are too tightly coupled the plan is harder to change

because changing any one part of the plan means changing all the other parts instead we should try and develop modular loosely connected plans then if we change or modify any one part of the plan it does not directly affect all the other parts this is why I talked about a little bit on one of our earlier podcasts from this book is I would try and keep my unit integrity my fire team integrity take as much as I could. So that way, if something changed, it was really easy. Just say, okay, fire teams two and three, you're doing this now.

And not putting little special teams together for every. People like to put together little special teams for everything. No, use the team. Use the team that's used to working with each other. Finally, flexible plans should be simple plans. Simple plans are easier to adapt to the rapidly changing complex and fluid situations that we experience in combat. Man, the idea that keeping your, the idea of keeping your plan simple, you know, when I would be going through training, when I would be getting judged by the training cadre, that was such a big advantage for me.

This would be like, oh yeah, this is what we're going to do, guys. We're going to get online here. We're going to move through the target. We're going to stay in fire team integrity. Once we're on the other side of the target, we'll call. It was like these basic plans that it didn't matter what we encountered on the target. It was almost like I was cheating. It was almost like I was cheating.

And you know what? What you know what they do? They lure you in to coming up with a complex plan. They go, hey, Jocko, we're going to give you guys all day to day to plan this. And they think they're doing you a favor. And they're thinking that when you come up with a more complex plan, that it's going to be better. They actually think that. And I'd say, okay, cool.

I'm still going to plan it in 13 minutes. And once we get the plan done, you know, okay, we'll add some detail to it. But the essential plan, 13 minutes, nine minutes. Let me look at the target for nine minutes. And I'm going to tell you exactly how this thing is going to go down. And the simplicity that you keep, such a huge advantage over it. It's cheating. It's almost cheating.

It is. We talk about this in business all the time, this idea of simple. It's one of the laws that we talk about it. And I'll ask the question that I'll have key leaders that will bring us in and we'll work with them. And I'll say simply, hey, why is it important for the plan to be simple enough that everybody on your team, especially at the lowest level of your team, understands it? And they won't really know the answer. And they'll think, well, it helps.

The reason you want everybody to understand the plan at the lowest level is that those are people going to be out there doing the real work. They're the ones that are actually doing the work. Not you as the key leader. And if they don't understand what to do, the simple thing is that they, they, they, they, They won't know what to do and you'll be stuck solving all the problems all day. And that's what we see these leaders. I'm constantly answering questions from all my people. It's like, because they don't understand what to do.

And they're at the point of friction and if your plan was actually less complex, it would help them more and they think, no, I need to give them more details, more information. That's actually not what they need. They need to just understand what you're trying to get accomplished and let them do the work. It can be counterintuitive. It is. It can be counterintuitive because someone will see their subordinates go out to do something and they miss the mark.

Yeah. And so what they do is they try and drive more detail down on. Now look, there's obviously a dichotomy of this, and there's an encounter to where you're not giving them enough information. For sure. And they don't understand what's going on. They don't understand what the objective is. That can happen.

It usually happens the other way, though. Totally. Next section in this book is called decentralization. Another excellent way to improve adaptability is to decentralize decision-making authority as much as each situation allows. This means that commanders on the scene, and closest to the events,

have the latitude to deal with the situation as required on their own authority, but always in accordance with the higher commander's intent. This decentralization speeds up reaction time. We don't have to wait for information to flow up to a higher command in orders to flow back down. It increases responsiveness of the organization, which in turn increases adaptability.

Decentralizing control through the use of mission orders is one of the tools we use to maximize our ability to adapt and this is the fourth law of combat decentralized command Confidence in the abilities of subordinates plays an important part in decentralization leaders who have confidence in the capabilities of their subordinates will feel more comfortable in granting them greater latitude in Accomplishing tasks So that's what you have to do you have to build up that confidence in your subordinates. And once you have confidence in your subordinates,

you can let them run. You can get out of their way, actually. And for them to be confident in themselves as well, that they can actually do that, understanding the big intent and that they can do that themselves, this book is making, this manual is making the connection between the need to be creative

and the need to let your people be creative and centralization and giving them too much detail actually stifles the thing you need from them the most, which is creativity and life. attitude when they're at the point of friction, which you can't be as a leader all the time with them. They're going to be there on their own more often than not, and you actually have to cultivate that well in advance, or they are going to freeze, and they're going to have too much friction. They won't know what to do when it matters the most, and you won't be able to help them.

I'm sure you saw that all the time as a mission lead at Top Gun. I'd have six different elements dealing with six different problems, and I couldn't be, usually not at any of them. Maybe I could be with one if I happened to be the right place and the right time in my airplane, but if something happened critical 60, 70 miles away, I can't influence that. I can't help them with that. This idea of creativity, that's the confidence that you're talking about

in them being able to solve their own problems and when you see it as a leader, that's what allows you to step back. It's awesome to watch when leaders figure that out, oh, you just train them and just let them do their job and it worked out. How'd that make you feel? It's awesome.

Some pragmatic kind of tactical level talk here. if you have your subordinates and they don't accomplish the mission the way they should or they make some bad decisions and your instinct is okay what I need to do is give them more detailed commands well that's not the right answer so what is the right answer the right answer is what you want to do is you need to make sure that they understand what your commander's intent was you need to make sure that you've given them the training so that they learn to recognize patterns you need to make sure you go give them the training so that they learn that part of creativity. You need to make sure that they understand that what you want them to do out on the battlefield is to actually lead. Because a lot of times people don't understand that. What they think they should do is wait for you to tell them what to do. That's the breakdown.

So it's one of those moments where you need to look when your team doesn't do what you want them to do and your instinct is I need to tell them what to do more. That's the wrong instinct. What you need to do it's not that you need to just let them do whatever they want because they've already proved they just prove that they don't know how to do that But what you need to do now is you need to train them to think you need to train them to be creative You need to train them to to follow up their immediate action drills and their standard operating procedures with an actual assessment of what is really happening and make some decisions Based on what they've been trained to do what the commander's intent is What the survivability of the mission is like all those things they have to learn to think and

And I got to see this over and over again in my leadership laboratory running the West Coast SEAL training. I got to see it over and over again. You could see someone in their first block of training, in unit level training, their first block of training, you would see a young SEAL leader who would completely lock up, mental lockup when things started going sideways. And believe me, they would go sideways.

Mental lockup. Then you fast forward, I'd go out to the next block of training. All of a sudden you'd see, oh, a little spark, a little something, a little, Maybe a little decision, a hesitant decision, but a decision. You go out to the last block of training. Something, something, it hasn't even gone wrong yet. It is beginning to go wrong.

And they go, hey, we need to assault that building right now. And you go, okay, this person's got it. So you can absolutely get better at this. But the way you do it is not by providing more direction. It's actually by providing the proper training. Because it's not nothing. That's what I want to, the point I want to make is it's not, when I say, hey, if your team isn't doing what you want to do, give them less direction.

That's not the answer. The answer is give them less direction and give them the training, give them the mindset, given the authority, give them the repetitions, give them the pattern recognition, give them the standard operating procedure and the immediate action drill. And I've talked about this before. Part of the immediate action drill that you need to have is what you're going to do when you don't know what's going on. Because there's a process that you can follow when you don't know what is happening.

What you need to do if I start getting shot at and I don't know what's happening. Okay, what am I going to do? Am I going to start, am I going to reload another magazine and shoot it? No, I'm absolutely not going to do that. I'm going to take a step back. I'm going to get off the firing line. I'm going to high port my weapon. I'm going to look to my left.

I'm going to look to my right. I'm going to assess where my guys are and make sure I know that. Then I'm going to start assessing where the enemy is. Once I've done that, guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to make the littlest move that I can possibly make that's going to move me in the direction that I suspect is the right way to go. So I'm going to make one small movement that I think is right. I'm not going to commit to it 100%,

but I'm going to make one small movement. Once we made that one small movement and it proves that maybe I'm, I was right in my suspicion, cool. Now I'll make a bolder movement and we'll continue in that direction. But you can do that. You can develop a standard operating procedure, an immediate action drill of what to do when you don't know what to do. So when you were in a.

an aircraft and you got shot at by the enemy and you did your immediate action drill, which was turned towards them, then what's your next, what's the next steps that you take? So you don't know what's happening. You do your immediate action drill. So you had to have some kind of thing that you did. I mean, you already said it earlier. You start looking around and figuring out what you're going to do next. It's funny because as you were going, what you just described, I was thinking about Top Gun.

I started thinking about jiu-jitsu. I was thinking about our time in Ramadi. I was thinking about business. All that, that thing you just described, that template fits in all those different places at the same time. And it's really how I was describing that immediate action response, that SOP was do this until you figure out what you're supposed to do. You said something. You said it twice. People can learn to be creative.

I have had people work with me and say, I'm not a very creative person. I'm better at this. So I have an operations officer. I'm not a creative thinker. I think like, you know, I'm immediately put that person in a position where he's uncomfortable. Not so much that he can make a mistake that's going to be catastrophic for the squadron. I wouldn't put him in a situation that is so far out of his comfort zone that he could make a decision that will hurt the team so bad that it's not recoverable. But you described it.

People can learn and have to learn how to be creative. And the really short answer is, what do I do once I get past that initial move is? I think that's creative. I look at it and think, what do I need to do? I take all those different pieces together. The more experience I am, the easier it is. And I figure out, okay, I need to stop this. This has been a good intermediate answer, but it's not the right answer,

and now I need to move in this other direction. Or pull in some other resource, tell another airplane what's going on, call a ground, whatever that answer is. The answer is different every single time. The answer is actually think, and you talked about situational awareness too. The more you know what's going around you, the easier the answer is, and the only way to get situational awareness is to put yourself in those situations over and over and over again. So you can anticipate what you need to do.

The idea for me is, and for you, it's what you, just described as well what I think you just described is is you're going immediately back into the oot loop to orient yourself to what's going on decide what you're going to do next and act but that orient piece that you're once you've made your initial immediate action drill okay cool you're immediate that's act right you just did an action and now what are you going to do you're going to orient yourself to where you are now which is going to look around for me taking a step back going to high port and looking around if you if I could get a young leader to do that? If I could get a young leader to do that, it was like I took them

from having a garbage can over their head to standing on a mountaintop with thermal vision. That's what it seemed like. Because when you are wrapped up in that situation, you cannot see anything you might as well have a garbage can over your head if the minute you take a step back you can see everything so once I could get someone to to make that little transition and sometimes it was pretty easy sometimes it was pretty hard you know we many times gave the young leaders you know stick guns that didn't shoot here you go man I'm telling you you cannot be shooting this thing what you need to do is be looking around but once you make that transition

That's like the, so for me, the immediate action drill for, I don't know what's happening, is step back, turn my head, physically look around and assess what's happening, and then make the smallest move I can possibly make towards the direction I suspect is correct. The beauty of what you just said is the immediate action in an airplane that I described earlier, that lift vector on and pull. That's what allows you to stick, to take a step back and think. because that maneuver, that movement requires no brain power. You just turn your airplane and pull back in the stick.

It's like the first thing you ever learned to do, and that's what allows you to look around and see what's happening. We would do these training missions, and we record everything. Cameras are over your shoulder, cameras in the front of the plane, the crams are everywhere, and the radar screen is on the right side of almost every Jedi fluid's over on the right side, and you would see guys' heads to the point that their nose is almost on the screen, and they were staring at the one thing they thought was the most important thing,

and literally not looking, not looking, so it's no different than being on the line. Target fixation. It's target fixation. It's, it's looking down the side of your weapon. And if you, just take your, take, you can't take a step back in airplanes. You could just lift your head, just lift your head up and look around. What would you, so is that what you would tell the young pilots?

Literally. Those words. Yeah. And I'd say, do you see your head in the reflection? You see your helmet? Where is it? He goes, it's literally touching the radar. And all the pilots that are listening this right now are laughing because

They know what that looks like where your nose is on the screen because you're staring at it and you don't see anything else is going on. That immediate action drill is a move that requires no real brain. It doesn't require you do anything other than the maneuver. And during that time is when you take a step back, you look around the big picture and then you make a decision from there. I mean, this is what I actually wrote on Seth Stone's Humvee window in front of his face. The grease pencil. Yeah, with grease pencil. I wrote step number one.

I said, listen, man, that's what you're going to do. Step number one, relax. Step number two, look around. Step number three, make a call. As soon as he, the next run, he followed those instructions. And that's exactly. And it was like a total game changer for, for, oh, instead of just staring at like the targets that just popped up down range or the where your guys' rounds were impacting. Like, no, just take us, just relax, look around and make a call.

So when you had a really good pilot, would their head just be constantly just all looking all around? All the time. Yeah, all the time. They never stop moving. They never stop looking around. And they talk very little. They don't say very much. They're just, and at some interval, they make one call.

Sweden, two, flow north. And all of a sudden, there's a whole formation, which, and because they would see whatever is happening. And he can make these massive amount of influences into what's going on in the fight by talking. by talking less than everybody else because he's spending 90% of the time just watching and go, oh, there's some friction creating over here, nobody's responding to it,

I'm going to get my guys submitted over the way I want him to. He's just attached sitting up at altitude mentally and going, okay, we're going to take a step back and, oh, this is what we're going to do now. And that's why as a mission commander, we talk about dog fighting against another aircraft and how fun that is and how much you, it's the last thing I really wanted to be doing

as a leader. That's no different than being in hand-to-hand combat when you're trying to lead your battalion. It seems like a lot of fun. And don't get me wrong, if the opportunity, if you had to do it, you do it. If that's required, of course you do that. But really the best leaders in an airplane were the ones that shot the least, said the least, saw the most, and made the right calls and right influence because they were detached the whole time. And this is completely reinforced by the fact that the American fighters in Korea, one of the biggest, assets that they had was they had the clear cock. That's exactly right.

Yep. Like that made, you know, you think, oh, I'm sure that makes a deal. No, you don't get what a big deal that makes. They all had perfect vision and they could see more than the enemy could see. That was the difference maker. It certainly wasn't how good the machine was. We've talked about this a bunch of times. The machine wasn't that good at all.

But the big advantage they had is they could see more, literally see more. You can see things sooner, see things better, see things more clearly and make decisions based on that and how much of a advantage that was. When you said perfect vision, are you talking about, the actual 2020 vision of the pilots. If you talked to those guys back in World War II and Korea, they were guys with the guys were the most kills, they had like 2010.

All those guys, one of the things they all had was they had incredible eyesight, literal vision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's what I think, because I, in Yeager's book, Yeager, he talks about how he could see before anyone else could see, he'd go, we got bogeys at whatever, three o'clock, and it would be the game changer.

Absolutely. Because now you're making maneuvers. My oldest daughter has 25 vision. And like when she goes to get her eyesight check, they bring other people into the room. They're like, watch this. That's awesome. Yeah. But I don't, I don't know.

I think the generations of fighter, well, it doesn't really matter that much anymore, right? Because you got radar. It doesn't, that attribute doesn't matter as much. The visual acuity doesn't matter as much. But the principle is exactly the same. It's just what do you, what do you see? And you know what you don't see when you're staring at one thing? You don't see anything else.

Yeah. You know what you see when you're staring down your ACOG? Right. You see nothing. That's right. You think you see something and you see absolutely nothing. And from a leadership perspective, you're making some big mistakes. Back to the book.

It fosters a climate where senior leaders know that their intent will be carried out. This is particularly true for First Battalion, Seventh Marine during Operation Desert Storm. As the battalion began breaching operations for the advance of the first Marine Division across the two, the first two Iraqi mine belts, Marines were suddenly overwhelmed with hundreds upon hundreds of Iraqis supporting sporting white flags who were trying to surrender. The number was so great that it threatened to stop the Marine advance. However, the battalion commander immediately recognized the situation, judged that the Iraqis were harmless and instructed the battalion not to stop to accept their surrender.

It was precisely the type of local situation that the division commander wanted his commanders to recognize and use their own initiative to correct. Here the commanding officer who is closest to the situation and who understood the division commander's intent, not to lose the momentum of the advance, adapted to the situation. This adaptation resulted in the rapid breach of Iraqi defenses. I hope that they rewrite this book soon,

and that's a cool example, but the examples that they're going to get from Iraq and Afghanistan are going to be really awesome too. Yeah. Conclusion. Successful warfare is filled with, with examples of leaders adapting to changing situations. We must start to learn how to adapt now during our training. Leaders should value and encourage innovative thinking.

Moreover, they should expect creative thinking from their subordinates because it creates new opportunities. For adaptation to be effective, commanders must readily exploit opportunities uncovered by subordinates. Commanders cannot remain tied to plans that blind them to fleeting opportunities. Commanders cannot remain tied to plans that blind them to fleeting opportunities. While making the best possible preparations, they must welcome and take advantage of unforeseen opportunities.

Training. Now during our training. This was an at the last muster, I had a, revelation because there's a story that you talk about when you experienced a female a belligerent female Iraqi basically what would you say she was doing to you physically moving on you in a non-lethal way but in a way that was disruptive to what you were trying to do absolutely and so you're in a building, you're doing a clearance. This is really early in your deployment to Ramadi. It's my first mission. First mission. Go ahead. Tell us what happened. Yeah, I was on my first

mission. The mission was we're going to clear out an apartment complex and a main house. So there's probably six or seven rooms. We did the- Where was it? Just out of curiosity. To me. Got it. Yeah. Good times. So we cleared out this room, it cleared out all the rooms in the building. And we had essentially accomplished our primary objective, which is clear everybody out, separated the men and the women to try to figure out if we could find the guy we're looking for. And they asked me to just go sit in the main courtyard, the main front of this building and just secure the door. Are you with an army company or an army platoon? National Guard platoon. National Guard platoon. National Guard platoon is before that Guard unit left. So they're, just to set this up a little bit.

So they're the assault force. They're taking down a building and they got good deal, Dave, to come in with them and run air support if needed with your ankle team. That's right. First mission I went on. These guys have been there almost a year. I went with them to support with air. Turns out when we got inside this building, there were more rooms than they thought, so I had to do some room clearances. So I wasn't expecting it. We did it. It was fine. Then I finished that up, and I'm just sitting in the front open area of this building thinking everybody is accounted for, everybody's secure. Down the stairs, probably 20 feet in front of me, an old Iraqi woman, she's probably in her 70s, maybe older. She's less than five feet tall. She's a tiny little thing,

and she is screaming, pointing her finger yelling to me. And I'm alone in this room because we think this room is secure. It's close to the outside so I can talk to air. And she starts coming at me and she's pointing her finger, screaming at me in Arabic. And she's not with her hands, but her body, she's so aggressive that she's, I'm backing up. She's moving me backwards. And I literally don't know what to do. So I just start backing up, up against the wall. And then how did it conclude? It concluded she got to about, I don't know, maybe six or seven feet from me. And over my right shoulder was the entrance to the outside and the platoon commander in charge of this whole thing walked in. He either heard it or was just coming back into see what's going on and he heard

and he came in and he literally just raised his weapon, screamed at her to stop and and disrupted the situation. He was pretty aggressive and got her to stop and she stopped. That was it. Yeah. I was literally doing nothing. And I was, when you talk about, you describe this really this, my little mental repertoire of all the things I had, all the resources available to me, I was out of ideas. I didn't know what to do. No weapon. I did not know. what to do. So guess what? I didn't do anything. Yeah. So just again, because this might seem real obvious, when you've got a civilian woman coming at you, you can't, you're not going to shoot her. You don't want to hit her. Like she's 70 years old. And so what are you going to do? How are you going to

handle the situation? It's a situation you'd never been in. So the connection that I made at the last muster, because I was listening to you tell that story. And what, and I tell a story about what I would set run training. We hired middle-aged. Arabic women to come and be role players and yell at people and you know be abrasive and be aggressive and so why did I do that? Because I wanted the guys to be ready because I knew that that's what's going to happen overseas. And so it's one of those things and if you never seen it before, you don't know what to do and or you may not know you may not know what to do. Whereas all you need to see is that one time. Like I guarantee you never I mean you never had that problem again. You'd realize oh this is what this will make her respond.

And the solution wasn't that hard, but what you described, I immediately went through my head. Am I going to shoot her? No. Am I going to hit her? No. I went through those two potential answers in about a half a second. The answer was no to both. There was no third step in my mind.

I did not know what else to do. It literally could have been something. If I knew the right word, put my hand up and took a step towards her, she would have stopped. But I didn't know what to do, so I didn't do anything. Yep. So that is why the training that you run as a leader, you got to think about these little things. You might not think there's plenty of people Prior to us deploying to Iraq in 2003

There's plenty of trainers that would have said oh you guys will know what to do No actually they might think they know what to do and and they might think the wrong thing as well You know the the wrong thing could be oh if you because you can hear people say this Hey if they're if they're closing with you that's a threat you can engage it's like no that's actually completely wrong It's actually completely wrong you need to think about what's going on So the training that you do and putting people into situations that they don't expect. And I mean, here's the deal, man. When was the last time you were on the ground clearing buildings as a rifleman?

Never. I did a, I've been an urban training at the basic school in 1994 for three days. So now this is nine years later or eight years later. 12 years later. Oh, no, 12 years later. Yeah. 12 years later and you're clearing rooms like TJ Hooker on my first mission. Yeah, clearing rooms. Yeah, and That's what we got to train for yeah, so you got to do that in the business world too. You got to look and see what can you and here's the point that I wanted to make is

You might not know to train somebody for in this specific case an Arabic woman that's gonna come out to you I knew that that's what we're gonna deal with especially once I came back from from Ramadi and and Baghdad. Like, I knew that that's where guys were going to be dealing with. But what situations can you put them in that just make them think? Just make them think. Just make them think. That's what you want to do.

The truth is, what I didn't need was training to deal with Iraqi civilians coming at me. That's not the training I needed. What I needed to do was recognize that the chaotic environments that I'd been in the past, the lessons applied there too. I needed to spend time thinking about what was this different environment going to look like and what did I already knew and understood could I leverage? And that's what I failed to do. Had I seen middle-aged Arabic women in training or not,

that's not what I look back and say. That's what I regret. The regret for me was not recognizing. I'm going to be out of my comfort zone very early on. I've been out of my comfort zone before. I have to remember what that feels like and apply those same lessons. And I could have handled that situation a million different ways. Not because I hadn't seen the exact same thing before,

but because I didn't think about what it's going to feel like to be out of my comfort zone. Because to be quite honest with you, Jocko, it'd been a while since I was out of my comfort zone in an airplane. And I got pretty complacent with it. And I didn't think about what that was going to be like the very next time I was carrying a rifle clearing rooms. I just didn't think about it. And thank God it worked out on that first mission because I carried that with me the rest of the deployment. Because believe me, I was in a lot more uncomfortable situations for the next seven months.

But I never found myself without understanding what to do moving forward ever because of that experience. I lucked out on that one. but like you said, it applies everywhere. That lesson fits everywhere in my life, in anybody's life. Yeah. All right. Next chapter. Next chapter is called cooperating.

Again, it's important to note that what we are saying is that the United States Marine Corps, one of, if not the finest whole fighting force that has ever been on the planet, Has an entire chapter about tactics in their book about tactics. There is an entire chapter that's called cooperating. And this is, you know, I talk about cooperating all the time. That is one of my laws of combat. I don't call it cooperating. I call it cover and move.

But that's what it is. We are going to work together. That's what cover and move is. We are working together. So the importance of working together, the Marine Corps identifies it, They call it something different, but here we go. Here's a quote. Unity of command is coordinated action toward a common goal.

It is cooperation. It is working together by all commanders toward the accomplishment of a common mission, which is imperative for complete and final success. Commanders must develop their staffs and subordinates the desire to cooperate, not only among themselves, but with other elements of the command. And that's almost an exact quote from when we talk about cover and move. It's not just amongst your own team, but it's with every team that you're working with that you need to support or be supported by in order to accomplish your mission.

And that's from tactical principles, a Navy manual. The other quote here is the first element of command and control is people. People who gather information, make decisions, take action, communicate and cooperate with one another. the accomplishment of a common goal. And that's from another Marine Corps pub called command and control. And we, there's people that talk about command or control and we're going to get into it just so everyone knows. It's okay.

You don't need to jump through the airwaves and come at us because I get that there's command or control. There's command and control. People talk about it. So cover and move talking about cooperation. Everything that we do, everything that we have to do, tactics gaining advantage and above all achieving a decisive result needs a team effort and this is why when I wrote down the laws of combat for the first time cover move is first

because if you don't have a team if you don't have cooperation nothing else it doesn't matter doesn't matter if you have a simple plan doesn't matter if you prioritize and execute doesn't matter if you have decentralized command if you don't have a teamwork working together it's not going to matter if effort if efforts are not in harmony results may be indecisive For example, if the aviation combat elements actions are not harmonized with those of ground combat element, they are likely, they are unlikely to have a decisive effect. If artillery support is not well coordinated with an infantry attack, combined arms synergy will not be achieved and the attack may fail. However, achieving this team effort is easier said than done. It requires rapidly maneuvering forces, often widely dispersed, to work together under the most adverse conditions.

control in combat because war is characterized by chaos uncertainty and rapid change control quickly breaks down it is probably a mistake to speak of control in combat think about that right there think about that right there what the marine corps is saying is if you're talking about control in combat you're probably wrong it says it's probably a mistake unless you're saying control was almost impossible, you shouldn't be talking about control in combat. Yeah. Because it's so hard to do. I remember the first times that I was, I had, I felt the loss of control.

This is pretty early. Like you go on a raid and you guys breach the door and they're going in. I'm not, I don't have control of that anymore. Like they're going. Whatever they're in there, I can't stop them anymore. I mean, I come on the radio and, and call a, call an abort and, you know, some of the guys will hear it. I can make a, but like, they're going. It's to try and control it is like a is like a stretch right to reach

Marine Corps publication six states that given the nature of war it is a delusion To think that we can be in control with any sort of certitude or precision now look. I'm telling you What is it easy if we go hit a target and there's no bad guys in there I can control that thing all day long and everyone everything's perfect and all the guys are doing what I told them to do big micromanager over here Dictating every movement yeah that'll work But that's not combat, right? It's a mission, but it's not combat. As anyone, next sentence, as anyone who has experienced combat will undoubtedly agree, it is impossible to control everything. Attempts to impose control also can easily undermine the initiative upon which the Marine Corps tactics depend.

Marines can become hesitant. They may feel like they must wait for orders before acting. We are not likely to move faster or gain leverage over a competent opponent unless Marines at every level exercise initiative. The dilemma then is this. How do we achieve the goal of working together in harmony while exercising a more decentralized type of control? So there's a little dichotomy there working together in harmony but decentralized command at the same time. JP and I were on a call with a client yesterday. they were talking about how they need, they're growing rapidly, and they've got, you know,

branches all over the place. And what they need is those branches to start acting, you know, on their own. They need to start using decentralized command. And, and JP kind of jumped in and said, hey, what is the messaging they're hearing from you? He said, because when he said, when I first got into task unit bruiser, this is JP talking. When JP first got into task unit Bruiser he was looking around going like okay I'm waiting for somebody to tell me what to do And I was like hey bro you need to just go do what you think you need to do as long as it's in line with what like what we're trying to make happen Yeah and you know you can imagine JP 21 or 22 years old I remember like the puzzled kind of curious look on his face when I'm telling him just Because he hadn't really experienced before like listen I trust I

that you are gonna make the right decision you're gonna make things happen you when you hear me say break contact break con you know what to do grab your fire team and make it happen when you hear me say flank I'm not gonna tell you where to go but you know what you know what I mean when I say flank that means I want you to go on a straight murder spree right now and JP like that yeah so so that attitude has to come you have to it takes a little bit of getting used to and people generally aren't used to it and it takes a certain level of I know I don't know what word use it takes a certain level of courage to think okay I've never done I've never just had my boss say yeah just flank them and gone and

flank them look there's parameters to flanking if you flank and you move too far you can get caught off you can move into the field of friendly field of fire you can you can cause some real problems but if you know what those parameters are you have free rein to maneuver within those parameters. So that was a good point coming from JP to this client. Like, have you explained to them that, listen, we're here. We are the central command of what's going on, but we are authorizing you fully to go out and straight up make things happen.

And that was a mental jump that JP had to make. It probably took him 15 minutes to make it because he was. what he recognized was I just took the shackles off of his body and more important, I took the shackles off of his brain to go and just get some. And that's something that you as a leader have to make sure that you're delivering that message to the troops so that they know they can do that. And the confidence it takes a leader to be able to do that, that's significant too. Because your natural instinct, when you see things going wrong and you see friction starting

to build is to start to tell people what to do. And this is flat out telling you, in a lot of cases, that's actually the worst thing you can possibly do because what will create in those people doing the work is hesitation. And they'll freeze and they'll look over their shoulder waiting for your guidance. And that could be a death sentence. That's a death sentence in business. It's a death sentence in combat. And it's actually what we want to do because we think we're helping. I want to get in there to help.

And it actually takes a ton of confidence as a leader. And you talked about that feeling of losing control. I remember getting to Ramadi. and I had this vision of how it was going to be. As soon as I got there, I had to break up my teams. I couldn't operate as a 13-man team. There was too much to do. And I remember probably day three, one of my junior lieutenant or a captain got in his Humvee

with his four guys and drove away. And I was standing there and I watched the vehicle drive. I'm like, high five, go get some. And as soon as he left, and there's a moment of I won't talk to him until he comes back. Yeah. Yeah. I did that the same exact thing. We split up into five different elements.

And the next thing I know, I'm sending a junior officer, a new guy, junior officer that's never been on deployment before. Okay, he's got an, he's got a E6 with him that's got some experience. But hey, man, good luck. Yeah. Go get some. And that is definitely something that you have to. It's, it's hard.

It's hard, man. It's hard. Going back to the book, cooperation. The beginning of the answer lies in cooperation. So the answer that they're talking about is how do we, how do we achieve the goal of working together in harmony while exercising a more decentralized type of control. The beginning of the answer lies in cooperation. We define cooperation as the union of self-discipline and initiative in a pursuit of a common goal. Unfortunately, they didn't think of the word dichotomy in the Marine Corps, because that's

what they're talking about. The union of self-discipline and initiative in pursuit of a common goal, cooperation can be viewed as a component of control. Control can generally be divided into two types centralized and decentralized centralized centralized control tends to be one in one direction and works from the top down someone at a higher level determines what subordinates will and will not do centralized control makes us conform to higher dictates because one person does the thinking for the entire organization the person in control in contrast decentralized control works from the bottom up command is exercised command is the exercise of authority

and guidance and control is felt as feedback about the effects of action taken, because thinking is required at all levels. Feedback allows the commander to adapt to changing circumstances and to command subsequent action. Cooperation is required in decentralized control. Subordinates work together laterally and from the bottom up to accomplish tasks

that fulfill the commander's intent. Cooperation means we take the initiative, to help those around us accomplish our shared mission. So think about what that means. It's saying that the command and control, the definition of control in that decentralized command is control is bottom up. The control comes up to the commander, not from the commander down.

You know, the command, the mission, that can be top down, but the control and how many leaders we work with that is just completely counterintuitive of how things actually should operate. is the control comes from the bottom, from the point of friction, up to the leadership. So they can incorporate all that and make big picture changes for the team. Once everyone understands what the commander's intent is, what the broad guidance is, then yes, you go. You go and make it happen.

And the control, this is where I thought you were going to say. This is what I thought you were going to emphasize, because it is an amazing statement. The control that we place upon the troops, the what controls them, is that they're working together. That's what controls them, is that they're working together. So they can't, what stops them from going off in some other direction is that they're working together. They're covering and moving for each other. If we don't cover and move for each other, if we decide we're not going to cooperate, we're not going to cover and move,

that means Dave is taking his element and going somewhere where I can no longer support you. And that can happen. So what controls us is that we are working together. Our cooperation is what controls us. That's incredible. cooperation is essential to Marine Corps tactics. The flight leader and wingmen work on the basis of cooperation. These pilots cooperate with the infantry they support.

It's just so everyone knows you could easily just replace these with cover and move. The flight leader and the wingmen work on the basis of cover and move. These pilots cover and move with the infantry they support. Two infantry units fighting side by side cover and move for each other. A mobile combat service support detachment and the mechanized force It supports cover and move. Cooperate. We all work together far more effectively when we communicate laterally than when we communicate only through higher headquarters and respond only to centralized direction.

As an ancillary benefit, we relieve our overloaded communication networks. So yeah, talk to your peers. Talk to the people next to you. Not just, hey, I'm going to tell the boss on you. Tell him to give you some direction. Work out the problems amongst yourselves. The history of tactics is filled with examples where cooperation made the difference and control could not. One such example occurred during an Iraqi counterattack in Operation Desert Storm.

Black smoke from burning oil wells turned the day into night. A UH-1 Huey pilot used his night vision equipment to lead flights of cobras through the near zero visibility to attack Iraqi armored vehicles. The specially equipped Huey designated. targeted targets so that the Cobras could engage them at near point-blank range with anti-armor hellfire missiles for nearly 10 hours the Huey pilot led flight after flight into the pitched battle earning the Navy Cross for heroism The pilots worked together to destroy targets the Huey could not engage and the cobra could not see This example shows what cooperation can accomplish cover move the next section oddly enough is called discipline discipline cooperation can harmonize efforts and get everyone to work together without centralized control that undermines initiative however it raises a more

fundamental question how do we prepare people to cooperate when the going gets tough the answer is discipline there is only one kind of discipline perfect discipline if you do not enforce and maintain discipline you are potential murderers in the face of adversity and difficulty, discipline enables individuals to pursue what is best for those around them, their unit, and the Marine Corps. Notice that no part of that talked about pursuing what is best for the person themselves. For you individually, yeah. Discipline enables individuals to pursue what is best for those around them, their unit and the Marine Corps. Individuals and units might have the desire, but without discipline,

They will be unable to accomplish the most difficult tasks in combat operating faster than the enemy gaining advantage Generating decisive force and achieving decisive results in combat Instant obedience to orders is crucial orders may not be popular but there comes a point where they must be carried out without question Discipline is a result of training in training for war discipline should be firm but fair The Marine Corps is known as a highly disciplined fighting force and I got to pause. So that instant obedience to orders being crucial. That's something that I always have to discuss with companies, with guys in the military, with guys in the teams.

Like, what does that actually mean? And there's a whole, I mean, it's not that complicated. Here's the deal. when you see something and you're being told to do something and it makes sense, you do it and you do it quick. If there's something that is going with this is a horrible decision that's coming at you, you might need to push back on that decision up the chain of command. Yes, I'm saying that. Even in the Marine Corps, I'm telling you, if you're being told to enter a building and you see an IED in the doorway of the building,

you should not instantly obey this order. Your boss doesn't want you to do that. Your platoon commander, your platoon sergeant does not want you to do that. So the instant obedience to orders, it's crucial, but we also need to remember that there is a broad order that you've been told, right? There's a broad commander's intent. The commander's intent is not to get your men killed.

doing something stupid, right? The overlying order is, hey, we're going to accomplish this larger mission. And the tactical call that's being made at this point in time, if it doesn't support that overall broader mission, then you should not do it. Now, there's a whole plethora of situations that can unfold. So if I'm telling Dave to enter that building and there's an IED and I'm the guy in charge and I'm telling Dave that there's an IED in the front yard or I'm telling you to enter a

building and there's an ID in the door right right and you you tell me no that's a bad call jocco I'm not now going to say shut up Dave and do what I told you to do I'm going to say no we need you in that building and you're going to say look no not a good call you might not have time to tell me there's an IED you might just say no not a good call luckily you and I have built a relationship of trust where you now when you tell me you can't Can't do something that I'm telling you to do I know the only reason possible that you are not doing what I told you to do is because it is not possible to do or it's stupid And then I'm gonna this is this is a weird thing that I have trouble articulating now I'm actually gonna go Instead of telling you what to do I'm gonna tell you why it was I wanted you to do it

Hey, well what we need is to strong point a building because we're getting attacked and now you look at me okay got that I can do that I'm gonna strong point this other building over here and you go do it and then you bring us there so instant obedience to orders that makes sense is true remember that there are broad orders that you need to follow out now there could be times where and you know when you start talking about World War 2 there was times where it's like hey you need to charge that machine gun nest and here's what's going to happen you charge that machine gun nest with your squad and you're going to lose half of them.

If you don't do that, this whole company is going to get killed because we're all going to sit here. So guess what happens then? When you tell me you're going to go and I say, hey, man, that's an elevated bunker position. And you look at me and go, listen, that's the only way we get off this beach. Then guess what I do? Instant obedience to orders. And we're going to go get it done.

So this isn't black and white. you have to think and these are important. There's also a thread here. There's so many things to talk about. You could talk about this for days, but that idea of perfect discipline, the immediate response to my orders, it's built on a depth and a level of trust

that's so powerful that the obedience isn't out of fear of not responding to you telling me what to do. The obedience is the recognition that what he's asking me to do is actually what's in the best interest of, like whatever it is, this entire team that we're talking about. And the examples, and if you go deep and deep, the stories of guys charging machine guns nests weren't waiting for the commander to come down and say charge the machine gun's nest.

You're actually, if you have that level of trust, you are so far out in front. I don't need Jocker to tell me that because I actually know, you may, I know you may come down and tell, but I know that's going to happen before you come down and tell me of men, get online. We are going to charge this machine gun nest. When they're talking about this immediate response to orders, don't think of it as you do what I say or this is the consequence that's going to happen to you. It's the recognition that what I'm asking you to do immediately

right now is what is the best interest of everybody to include you, although I might, as a commander, you might have to make that decision of I'm going to, there's going to be loss here. I'm going to lose some of my men to do that. And that burden of doing that. that think about how much trust is required from the leadership side to cultivate a response from my subordinates who know their men are going to die. And perfect discipline is that description of, there's no other way for us to be successful unless we do this.

And if I actually push back and say no, what I really would like to be able to do is say, no, I'm doing this instead, which is going to accomplish what you ask. So I don't have to take the time to talk to you about it in real time. That comment. If people think Marine Corps, people follow, orders, the self-discipline that's imposed on those Marines at that age, it only works with

trust up and down the chain of command that is so much more powerful than, than the words can really describe and how important that is. Yeah. Back to the book. The Marine Corps is known as a highly disciplined fighting force. Discipline is one of the strengths that makes Marines equally effective assaulting a beach, conducting a non-combatant evacuation operation, fighting a fire. or guarding our embassies.

Nonetheless, discipline is founded not only on obedience, but also on a sense of duty. The discipline needed for cooperation comes from two sources, imposed discipline and self-discipline. The first source imposed discipline is more often associated with the term military discipline. Imposed discipline typified by the Prussian approach is characterized by instant obedience to orders. external in nature, it ensures compliance with established procedures, rules, and guidance, and direction from above. It means to achieve efficiency and accomplishment of routine duties or drills. In its most extreme form, it can be rigid, paralyzing, and destructive of initiative. Imposed discipline also may make units vulnerable to the effects of chaos and uncertainty and unable to cooperate with one another.

So that idea that we just talked about that we were trying to dispel that you and I both just tried to dispel, well, they're in the process now of dispelling it in this book. Totally. By saying that this idea of imposed discipline is not the kind that we're talking about. Imposed discipline will prevent the things you have to do, which is be creative, operate. It's the thing that undermines what they just said you have to do is this imposed discipline. And I had to break this out for young Mark and way of the warrior kid. Explain the difference between imposed discipline and self-discipline. Carrying on, self-discipline is an internal force that morally obligates all Marines to do what they know is right.

In this case, to cooperate with every other Marine in pursuit of a common goal. The obligation is internal in each individual. It is something he or she feels powerfully about. Coupled with a sense of camaraderie and esprit of corps, it pulls from within and causes Marines to do everything they can for fellow Marines. At the unit level, this force can be felt as morale. No system of tactics can lead to victory when the morale of an army is bad. Self-discipline can be seen in successful athletic teams as well as military units.

Team players instinctively back up their teammates. In baseball, the outfielders cover on fly balls. In hockey, rarely does only one player rush the goal. In football, offensive linemen do not stand by idly on a pass play if no defensive player faces them. They may block the first defender they can find. They block the first defender they can find. Members of squads and fire teams also work together as teams to accomplish tasks. and take care of each other.

This cooperation among teammates cannot be enforced by a coach or a leader. It depends upon the self-discipline of the individuals. Marine discipline is the self-discipline of a successful team, not just the imposed discipline of the army of Frederick the Great. For Marines, military discipline means accepting personal responsibility. I think I wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. Self-discipline will not allow us to shirk responsibility or blame others. I think I wrote a book called Extreme Ownership.

A discipline failure. Often a failure to act is a personal failure. Our form of discipline is also absolute. There is no time off. Someone else may be in charge, but that does not absolve us from the responsibility to do everything we can to achieve the common goal. It does not reduce our responsibility to cooperate with fellow Marines in our unit and beyond. This discipline is a mindset, a way of thinking and behaving. It runs through everything that we do. It is much a part of garrison life as of combat. We also carry

this sense of personal responsibility and duty to contribute into our private lives. We see it whenever off-duty Marines take the initiative to help at the scene of an accident, act as leaders in their communities or in other ways do more than their share. They do so because of something inward, not because they are compelled by control. That something is self-discipline, and it is not limited to one aspect of life. Check. Those two pages, man, are... It is so succinct and so straightforward the way they describe what marine discipline is and where it applies.

All the time, everywhere, without exception, and you are wholly responsible for the success of everybody else around you based on your individual actions, and that applies everywhere in your life. It took me three books to explain that. Yeah. Just crystal clear. Crystal clear. It concludes here. Modern tactics rely on cooperation. Cooperation in turn depends on discipline.

Discipline consists of both imposed discipline and self-discipline. As leaders of Marines, we must create a climate in which self-discipline and a high level of initiative can flourish within the boundaries of military discipline. There's the dichotomy right there. Initiative can flourish within the boundaries of military discipline. That's what you want. You know, I always use the word parameters when I'm talking about decentralized command. I'm like as long, when I give you the parameters, you can do whatever you want inside those parameters. That's what they're talking about.

You do whatever you want within the boundaries of military discipline. This climate depends on us. Words are easy. Anyone can give an occasional pep talk on the merits of self-discipline. Marines judge actions, not words. and respond positively by leadership, to leadership by example. If the leader creates a climate where perfect discipline is expected and demonstrated, cooperation will follow.

And discipline is always a good note to end on. Actions, not word, not words, create discipline. So, that was two more chapters. What do we do? Not bad. A little shorter. Two more chapters. We got two more to go.

And we'll dig into those on the next podcasts. Discipline. Once again, something that we hear a lot about, something that I talk about a lot. The Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual. I'm glad I wrote that when I did. Because it would be hard for me to write it right now and not just say, hey, just go read this book.

Discipline is a critical factor in, It allows us to win on the battlefield. And it allows us to really win everywhere in health, in business, in fitness, in fitness, in jujitsu in life. You've got to maintain the discipline. Yes. Echo Charles. Yes, sir.

Speaking of discipline. Now that you are back from your highly undisciplined vacation in Hawaii. Is that, is that wrong? Yes, that is wrong. Oh, you were highly disciplined. No, no, no, no. It was quasi-discipline. Quasi-discit.

You know, kind of, you know, here and there. And you know that was a thing. I don't think that is a thing. I think that's actually. In my world, is not a thing. Actually, technically, I think that's a counter. What do you call it? Dave, does, is there any sections on quasi-discipline?

There is only one kind of discipline. It is not quasi-discipline. The quasi-dictsicine. The quasi-kind makes it antiquated, right? Because it's either you discipline or you're not disciplined, right? Yeah. In fact, quasi-discipline is essentially undisciplined. That's what I, okay, so you see where I'm coming from.

Yeah. So your trip to Hawaii was essentially undisciplined, not quasi-discipline. Yeah, yeah, you're correct on that. Now maybe you said it's some moments of discipline. Yeah, for sure. You made, you did some work. Did some work, did some training, did some, yeah. You trained some of the jiu-jitsu.

No. Oh, that stinks. But I saw some jiu-jitsu guys, so, you know, that's something. All right. Well, since the rest of us are trying to maintain our discipline, Do you have any recommendations on how we might be able to do that?

Yeah, we'll talk about Jiu Jitsu. That's a good way to maintain discipline. So Jitsu is one of those, what do you call it? You could call it a dichotomy because you have to have discipline to do Jiu Jitsu, and Jiu Jitsu will kind of give you discipline. Well, it'll prompt you.

I thought you were going to say if you do Jiu Jitsu, you're going to have to have creativity. Yes, that too, for sure. Oh, yeah. Full-on metaphor for life. In fact, good deal, Dave Burke here.

You know in the airplane, right? How you close the distance or whatever so jiu-jitsu is one of those things When you first learn self-defense, you just especially from the Gracie that Gracie way it's like there's three zones as the green zone which is like you're out of range essentially Then there's the other green zone when you're like too close because you can't take effective punches all the stuff same thing right then there's that red zone So when you find yourself in your K when you're what you're talking about when you find yourself in that red zone kind of you know where you got to react. You go to one of the green zones. You're going to play in, obviously, to get to the far green zone

is going to take way more time so it doesn't seem like the logical thing. Yeah, and you're a huge risk. Yes. You try and get to the far green zone. Yeah, it's like unrealistic. In fact, you've got to essentially travel through the whole red zone

to get to that grid. Same thing with Jiu-Jitsu. If you're in the red zone, then again, I mean, it's easier to get out of distance than in a fighting situation than it would be an airplane. You got it right.

There's layers there's boundaries there and at different places you'll do different things. That thing I described doesn't apply. If you're at 25 miles away, you have different responses. You're spot on, man. So on both of them to get too close to be in range is the safe thing to do.

It's not as intuitive, you know? Unless you can run. Yep. Yeah. But you've got to be at 25 miles to be able to run. Right. The bottom is, you got to, well, you just have to know where you are. It may be in a fight three feet or fight.

There's a range, and you have to know if you're inside or outside that range. Whatever the range is, it's certainly different than an airplane than two people fighting. But you actually have to know where you are. Because if you make a decision inside of that range, you'll get yourself killed. If you try to run in an airplane and you're in a place where you can't, you'll die, period. No different. And if you're inside that range and you try to close the distance, that will actually keep you alive by getting closer. And you just have to know where you are.

Yeah. And when you're untrained, it doesn't seem that obvious. Because when I'm, look, I'm fighting with Dave Burke. He's punching me in the face. My first instinct isn't to go towards those punches. to the inside. You see what I'm saying? I mean,

although that's, there definitely, that kind of is an instinct or is that a training thing? No, man, you try punch an untrained person in the face. Not only are they going to go away,

they're going to turn away, they're going to turn their back, they're going to run away, just instinctually for sure. But if they have some training and whatever, then you can change that. Because you see in the cage

or in the ring, as soon as someone starts getting hit, they know that they need to get closer. Yeah, that's fully trained. Occasionally, occasionally you'll see someone trying to run away even in the cage,

even in like an, MMA actual fight someone will try and get away. Yeah. Occasionally. Yeah. But either way, the guy who goes in and closes the distance when they're in trouble, that's a trained person. Yeah, true.

100%. 100%. 100%. 100%. Thousand instinctive declaration. Okay. That number. So you were talking 90 something percent.

High. Realistically, it's high. I think 100%. Off the bat. Yeah, you could say everybody. Like who untrained could you ever name who did that? Because I'm thinking, because what I'm thinking of is like, like, oh, you got some kid that wrestled for two years in junior high school.

When he starts getting hit, he could very well close distance. Yeah, trained. But he's trained, yeah. Good point. Good point. Then again, what do I know? That's what it seems like. Isn't it weird that your intuition could be just wrong?

Yeah, because they're supposed to be. And you learn that a lot in jiu-jitsu. Like, in jitza, you go, man, this was a bad decision I just made. It seemed like a good idea. It was not. Yeah. I would think that, like, in like, the natural world. that the intuition is going to be correct.

That's what I think. But I'm saying it's not. That's what I'm saying. No, but it's not when you're dealing with trained individuals, like basically manufactured scenarios, you know? And however chaotic the scenario is. So you're saying you're saying two humans that grew up on deserted islands with no, in the wild.

Yeah. Dave starts like being aggressive towards me in one way or another where it makes me uncomfortable oh I'm leaving 100% even if he doesn't even throw punches he just starts getting aggressive oh I'm leaving really what do you go fighter flight right flight is like one of them he starts punching him in the face oh I'm leaving I can get away from those punches or whatever but if he's trained or if he knows I'm going to leave ooh there there becomes the training you're saying I'm trained I know he's going to leave or some I've been through that experience you know I'm saying yeah I just know that sometimes my instincts are really bad oh yeah mine too

Probably like 99% of the time. Check. So speaking of jih Tzu. Yeah, take jih Tzu, you will get good instincts trained into you. Because they become instincts, right? They'll become instincts, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, ingrained into you.

Nonetheless. There's nothing better. You know what I have an instinct for? And I don't mean this to be, I'm not trying to attack you right now, like verbally. Well, that remains seen. My instinct is to grab you in a guillotine. Like, my hand just goes. those there. I do not. Oh, when we're training. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For real. Like when we're

training for real, I just have you in a guillotine. I'm like, boom, we're rolling and then boom. Yeah, I agree. I don't know what happened. Boom. Got you in a guit. Yeah. Well, I'm not saying you're going to tap, but I'm saying it's there. Yes. I agree. Yeah, that is one of the things for sure. Nonetheless, when everyone starts to jiu-too, they're going to need what? A ghee. A gie. A rash guard. And the desire to train, really. That's what it comes down to. Oh, want a place to train and people to train with essentially because you can't that's the big drawback from jiu jitza you need another human yes but as far as the geese and the rash guards what kind of geese you're gonna get because that's still a question it's still a question

this shouldn't be way less prevalent now but if you don't know you get an origin ghee where do you get them from origin main dot com Dave Burke do you have an origin geese I have two origin geese I use them all the time how many geese do you have two that one the use the phrase 100% that applies to the number of geese that I have that are origin geese. Well, good. Got some rash guards in there as well. Those are good ones. Also jeans.

American denim. Yeah. American denim. Made in America. Made by the team up in Maine. Yeah. Yeah. Those are good.

Surprisingly fashionable. Not overly fashionable. That would be a horrible thing. Yeah. If we started venturing into it. Well, then that would have to come from Pete, who can be a little bit more overly fashionable. Here's the thing about Pete, though. He's from Maine.

So Maine is not exactly the fashion hub of the United States. You see what I'm saying? Not exactly. I'm not like disparaging his fashion sense. I'm not. So you're saying relative to the world, relative to L.A., New York and Paris. Yeah, you go right in the middle of Paris, yes. And you say, hey, guys.

Pete has no fashion. sense if he's in Paris is what I'm hearing. Correct. Yes. But in Farmington, Maine, he's kind of. He's kind of stylish. He is, yeah, which to me is perfect. Yeah.

It winds up to be perfect because it's on the milder side of fashion. He's like straight from Paris. In my house, he's like a guy from Paris or a guy from New York. Yeah. He's walking off the catwalk into my living room. That's what I see. Well, you got the jeans. So boom, you're in that.

That's what I'm saying. Luckily, the jeans. are, they're functional is the deal. They're straight functional. And jocco, you look good in them. Let's face it. Well, I'm not over here looking at me or other people. I'm looking at you.

Right, you're the man. Hey, got a bunch of other stuff on their t-shirts. Joggers, which Echo likes. I cannot wear joggers. Yeah, that's too far for you. 100%. And then there's also supplements. Jocco supplements.

Dave, how does your daughter like, how does your oldest daughter like strawberry milk? It's funny you ask. We were actually talking about this the other day. I was describing on the last podcast how good strawberry milk tasted. And I was trying to use, find the right words. So I give my son strawberry milk. And he's five. Five.

Yep. He likes milk. It's good for him. You know, he's got a bit of a sweet tooth. So we're not doing Nestle quicker in that crap. We don't do it. Oh, because you don't want to. poison your own children.

No, I know. I love my kids and I don't want to poison them. And they don't have that as a friend. He's never had it, so he doesn't know. He just knows the stuff tastes good. My daughter, my oldest daughter, snagged, took the bottle from him, slid it off the table towards her. I was sitting across from her.

We weren't talking. I'm just watching her. She took the bottle, drank a sip of his strawberry milk, and she closed her eyes and looked up at the sky with her eyes closed and just said, to herself. It's so good. That's when I'm like, that's when I knew that how, that's how I feel about strawberry milk is what she said to herself about how good it is. It is that good. Yeah.

And the strawberry seems to be to many people kind of the top of the taste pyramid. I will say this, though. I can go two strawberries, maybe three. Now, I did go on like a full on strawberry rampage when it first came out. You're talking about the adult. The adult, the kids one is delicious too. But the adult strawberry milk, I went on like a three-week rampage of just strawberry. And now I'm back to it's in the rotation.

It's like two strawberries, mint. Strawberry peanut butter. I'm probably a month behind. I think I got about a month behind you. So actually today on the way here, I went back to mint, had a double scoop of mint on the way here. Double scoop. And I was reminded. Yeah.

The mint was so good, man. It was so good. So I have finally just come off the exclusive strawberry train. Yeah. Strawberry's still good to go. Oh, yeah. I was reminded of how good the mint was today. You know what the cool thing is?

This isn't like being married. You didn't get married to strawberry. No. Like the strawberry tastes good, but you can still just get that mint back on if you want to. Get that little peanut butter. The one scoop peanut. If you get the one scoop peanut butter, I'm talking that thing is just a little bit of dead pedal tied you over.

So that's the mulk. You can get some of that mulk. Discipline go. This, you, Dave, each time you've come on this podcast, the past three straight podcasts, I see you doing something, a little ritualistic scenario going on over there before you, you put something in your mouth, you swallow it. What is that all about? That's the, uh, the discipline go to prep me for having my head in the game.

game, which I want on this podcast. Actually, I want to be in the game all the time, to be honest with it. I can't think of any place where I don't want to really be in the game other than getting ready to go to bed. Yeah. So the discipline go pills. If I'm going to do something that requires me to think, I'm taking them to include this podcast.

Yeah. It's, you can feel it. Without question, you can feel it. But it's subtle, too. It doesn't like, it's not like getting a hit in the head with a hammer. It's a subtle get you up on the step and you look and you're like, oh, I'm in the game. And you can feel that you're in the game. But it wasn't like a big shock to the system.

It gets you up there subtly and then you're there. And actually, you can stay there for a while. Yeah. What I look is you look around like two hours later and you're like, you know, this be, I'm on fire. And you're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's what just happened.

Yeah. You mentioned the warrior kid mulk. So there's the warrior kid mulk. and then we have Jockle white tea which is you know summertime I got the cans they're just sitting around my house

they're in the fridge they're just getting pulled out my whole family's just cracking out on Jocka white tea so get that a try and don't forget the joint warfare and cruel oil big part see

see even how you're just like oh yeah yeah yeah I meant like oh yeah like yeah it's just so that's a given yeah and here's a thing it is a given too That's another one. I mean,

if you're working out, which we are. The tone in my voice was actually like apologetic to the world. That's what's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I can't believe I forgot that.

Because if you're not doing that, the reason why I can forget it is because when I brush my teeth in the morning, I'm taking joint warfare. When I brush my teeth at night and floss, I'm taking joint warfare and I'm taking curle oil. So that's just how. That's just how it's what we used to say in Hawaii. Oh yeah, 100%.

But some people, Maybe they don't know. You know, maybe I think most of us do, but yes, let's not forget that. That's the point. Cruel oil, joint warfare, keep yourself physically in the game. So you can do whatever. Lift. Lift, do jiu-jitsu?

Boom. Lifting. Oh, yeah. I'm just saying lifting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're taking it for granted. Oh, yeah. I got back into back squats, by the way.

Oh. Layed down in bed with my wife. That's right. I said it. And she even said, like, your legs look big right now. I didn't know I got back into back squats. What'd she say about your, uh, your knees. Anyway.

Yeah. So those supplements are outstanding. And yeah, keep yourself in the game. Get in the game. Keep yourself in the game. That's how. Also, we have our own store. It's called jocco store.

Just like you mentioned. jocco store.com. This is where you can get the rash guards, t-shirts. You want to represent while you're on the path. This is where you can get this stuff. The merch. That's a word My daughter keeps saying that

Your daughter's only six years old Yes sir I know And she's saying merch Because she watches these YouTube videos And they're like The merch and I'm like It's kind of The thing is you know how you're so biased

Towards your kids Well I am I don't know about you But and they say something like Kind of whack And you're like oh that's so cute I'm in that boat right now With the word merch

You don't even recognize that it's not cool Correct Not yet Nonetheless If you want merch jocco store.com. Truckers hats. Yeah. Beanie.

Yes. Hoodies. Hoodies. Lightweight and Dave Brooks here. Yeah, I know. Lightweight hoodie approved when we're at his house. Lightweight hoodie wearer. Oh yeah.

Big time. My little brother, Kenyatta Charles. That's his name. By the way, lives on Kauai. He went out of his way to tell me that that lightweight hoodie. Dude, he lives in Kauaii. I understand. I understand.

Of course he likes the light. What did you do with a full weight hoodie in Hawaii? Yeah. I don't know. Come on, man. Give it as a rain. Give me a better example. No, man.

Dave's not back. Dave lives in San Diego. Even that's a week. Here's the thing. How about my people up in Michigan? It would be obvious if he was talking only about the functionality of it. But he was talking about everything. The feel, the fit, the look.

Check. They're good hoodies, lightweight hitties. Also subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already because Echo thinks you might not have. And then don't forget about it. the Warrior Kid podcast. That one you could forget to, because I haven't put it out as often as I should,

but I should put it out more. A lot of parents just have the Warrior Kid podcast on repeat. Dave, do the lessons sink in from the Warrior Kid podcast? They do. I have learned that my kids understand more than I thought

they would understand because I watch how they react to the lessons I learn. The podcast and the books, they sink in. If you want to get some soap, Get it from Irish OaksRanch.com

because there's a young warrior kid named Aden who's living on a farm and he's making soap from goat milk. Jocco soap. And if you use that soap, you can stay clean. That's a good one. And don't forget about our YouTube channel because Echo wants you to watch the videos that he makes and he's super excited and thinks that they look cool.

He's like the Paris of, movie making someone just tightened you up bro someone tightened you up on one of your little little excerpt like hey podcast number 180 whatever's up someone wrote music was a little much yeah I was like day

coming off the top ropes that's a little crazy right it's a 52 second video it's not even one minute and someone said echoes music's a little much yeah well you know I am used to that comment because let's face it sometimes man it is it is a little much i get it it's true but at the same time it depends on what he meant overall like a little what little too loud oh or was it too aggressive no i think it was just like too dramatic or the fact that there's music at all i know

there's too dramatic too much the cello players of the world are real appreciative of your musical taste because you did they break out the cellos and you break out the recorder You want to check out little excerpts of this. Get the YouTube channel. Subscribe to it. Smash the like button. I know. You did it.

You did it. Last one. Dave, psychological warfare. Do you ever have to press play on psychological warfare? Unfortunately, once in a blue moon. I've got it down pretty good at this point. I have what I call psychological warfare in my head. I kind of know what you're going to say at this point.

So the reality is, I don't need that resource because it's there permanently embedded. You know what you're going to say at this point. Yeah, and that's a good point because it's like it's one thing to like listen to it. Let's say for the first, second, third time or whatever. And it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. You're right and you're fired up to sort of do it. But at the same time, you're not just getting like jocco like, I hate to say it, like motivating you to do it.

He's motivating you with logic. Don't get it wrong. But you still are getting motivated to do it. After a while, that actual logic gets embedded in your head. No. That's the transition from imposed discipline. to self-discipline. Oh, yeah.

You know the message. You know like, oh, hey, yeah. Like, you don't feel like doing it, but you know you're supposed to do it. You know how you're going to feel afterwards and you know the results. And the thing is, that's a fact. So you get reminded of it so many times,

however many times you listen to it. Then you're kind of like, oh, yeah, I kind of know that. So you can essentially tell yourself that. Yes. So if you want that, it's on iTunes, Google Play, MP3. Flipside Canvas, if you want a visual reminder of the path,

go to flipsidecanvas. dot com, my brother Dakota Meyer, running that thing, making art to hang on your walls. With layers. With layers, multiple layers. Oh, yeah, big time. Also, on it, onet.com slash jocco, by the way, this is where you can get fitness gear. Some good. I have this electrolyte supplement that I get.

It's like a go-to, by the way. It's like electrolyte minerals and whatnot. Anyway, get it from on it. And so the rings that you so strongly, how should I say, recommended early on came in handy so I brought them to my trip to Koi yeah here's the thing about those rings though you have to kind of think ahead on where to hang them you're saying it's not that hard it's I know I know but I found myself in a situation where I'm like searching you can't just hang them from the ceiling fan you got to go Marine Corps manual of adaptation yeah previously

anticipating even if you got to hang them from a tree but nonetheless the point is it's not like a squat you can't just bring the squat rack to Kauaii with you you see what I'm saying you got to go to quiet seek one out or something like that but the rings they go with you boom from the suitcase carry them carry literally carry the rings on the plane whatever it's so it's easy you know and then you can get yeah that workout not to mention the workouts from rings are gonna be a lot better than if you don't have ring anyway get get there's a lot of stuff good kettlebells on there decorative artistic kettlebells on there that's where I get my um a lot of good stuff on

there on it dot com slash jock got a bunch of books weigh the warrior kid three where there's a will that is live. And it's actually available on Kindle right now. We just released the Kindle version. So apologize, it took a little longer. Way the Warrior Kid won and then Way the Warrior Kid

to Mark's mission. That is where you can get your kids on the path. Mikey and the Dragons, for anyone that needs to overcome fear, face fear, get Mikey and the Dragons. Discipline equals freedom field manual. This is

the adult version of how to get after it. And then there's extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership, which are books that I wrote with, my brother Laif Babin. They are the combat leadership lessons we learned and how you can apply them to your life and your business. We got Escalon Front, which is where we solve problems through leadership, leadership consultancy.

If you want myself, if you want Dave Burke, if you want Laif, Babbin, J.P. Dinell. If you want Flynn Cochran, if you want Jason Gardner, if you want Mike Sorrelli to come to your location and help you align the leadership in your organization, who'd I miss? Mike Baima. If you want anyone from Eschlonfront, go to ashlonfront.com.

That's what we do. We solve problems through leadership. And we got EF Online, which is online, interactive training because leadership training of any kind is not an inoculation you need to get booster shots and that's what a EF online is and it's something that you can put through your whole organization get your whole organization from the frontline troops to the senior leadership on the same path with leadership EF online.com we got the muster the muster is coming up in

September 19th and 20th and It's almost sold out. So if you want to come, you better just register ASAP. Sydney, Australia, and December 4th and 5th. Go to Extreme Ownership.com. Every one of them have sold out, and those will sell out too. And then, of course, EF Overwatch, which we're taking combat leaders from special operations from combat aviation. Guys like Dave Burke.

Good deal, Dave. Yes. Guys with that kind of experience. and we are placing them into we're placing them into civilian companies where they are using their leadership that they've learned that they've been tested on and putting it to work in the civilian world.

Of course, you can't have Dave Burke because Dave Burke is with us on the team at Echelon Front. And Echo, you got anything else? I don't. Good to see Dave Burke here. Share time and space with them. Other than that, no, man, carry on. Check, Dave.

Nothing to add. Check. And if you do have something to add out there, that's fine. There's still a chance. You can find us on the interwebs. We are on Twitter, Instagram, and Dasa. Frazen Wukin. Echo is at Equicharls.

Dave is at Dave. David R. Burke. B-E-R-K-E. And I am at Jock-Willink. And we have been getting granular with the Marine Corps right now, But we certainly honor all the branches of the military, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, including active duty, reservist, guard units, and all the vets. Thanks to all of you for allowing us the freedom to record this podcast and to live the lives that we live into our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all the first responders out there,

Thanks to you all as well for being there for us when it counts when we need you to keep us safe. You are there standing by and we appreciate it. And to everyone else out there, remember what the Marine Corps says about discipline. Discipline is absolute. There is no quasi-discipline. There is no time off. Discipline is a way of thinking and more important than a way of thinking, discipline is a way of thinking. Discipline is a way of behaving.

It is about actions, not words. So don't allow any slack. Instead, take charge, take action, seize the initiative, and get after it. And until next time, this is Jocko and Echo and Dave. Out.