Jocko Podcast - 206: THE STRESS EFFECT. Pt. 3 w SOG Leader, Dick Thompson. Why Smart Leaders Make Dumb Decisions.

Episode Date: December 4, 2019

0:00:00 - Opening 0:01:18 - Dick Thompson. SOG. The Stress Effect. 2:30:24 - Final Thoughts and take-aways. 2:33:43 - How to stay on THE PATH 3:09:04 - Closing GratitudeSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

This is Jocko podcast number 206 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. And back for a third time is Henry Dick Thompson. I have to throw Henry in there just to make sure when people look for your book, they'll be able to find it. Right. So Dick Thompson, Sog Warrior, was on podcast 203 and 204. If you haven't listened to those, just go and listen to them immediately and you'll realize the magnitude of the fact that this individual is sitting here alive talking to me is just an absolute miracle.

So go listen to 203, 204, where you can hear about Dick's experiences as a SOG team leader and team member in Vietnam. where we left off was home from Vietnam and now checking in as a ranger instructor, which for you was a great deal because you were going to have the opportunity to take the lessons you had learned, teach them to the rangers, and also hone them for your own experience

because you figured you were eight months away from going back to Vietnam. Yes. So this is my opportunity to get, ready and so I could be more focused next time and I could do a better job now when you said eight months what is it what was that based on what was that when you say I was probably going back over in eight months what was that based on at that time that was about to turn around rate you come back from Vietnam they give you a little time to recover and you know eight months or so you're going to get orders to go back again and you're now did you make captain yet or you still yeah I'm a

I'm a captain. So now you made captain. You must be looking around at the guys that you deployed with and that you knew. I mean, you must be missing a lot of guys now. I mean, wounded, killed, or missing in action. This has got to be just a tremendous number for you. When I look at the ones that I knew, that I consider teammates. I mean, we did things together.

We knew each other. I have a list that I run for, 35 names. Those are just the ones that I considered, you know, my personal friends and teammates. Now at CNN, we lost a lot more people than that. I just didn't know them very well. But just the time I was there, you know, I got 35 names I run for. And you've got to have that in your back of your mind when you're training these young Rangers. you know what they're getting into,

even if it's not SOG, you know you want to prepare them to the best of your ability for what they're going to face. Yeah, because I knew at that time, I mean, they were going to Vietnam. I mean, there was no doubt, especially if they made it through Ranger School.

I mean, they were going. So the question for me was, in addition to the personal things that I wanted to do, like, you know, improve my skills, what could I do for these guys to, help them have a higher chance of surviving once they get there.

So I kind of made that my mission. So you got the normal instruction from a Ranger instructor plus. Then I added other things on it. And I said, you've got to do this. Learn how to do this. This is how you talk. This is how you lead. So they got a lot of extra coaching.

training whenever I led to a group. And I just, I felt responsible, you know, to do that. What were some of the leadership principles that you focused on teaching the young Rangers? Some of it was, you know, you got to be accountable. These are your guys. You got to be accountable. You've got to take responsibility.

If you're going to lead them, you got to make sure you know what you're doing. You've got to be physically fit. You got to be mentally fit. You need to know the tactics. techniques. You need to enforce them. You need to encourage them. You need to build a team. You need to take care of them. You need to know everybody on your team. If you've got a platoon, you need to know everybody in the patun. And at that time, the Army used to issue a little green notebook, pocket size, notebook, hardback that you put in your pocket. And, you know, I would tell them,

you need to have your people in here, you know, in peacetime. You need to know. You need to know who they are, know something about them. So you can relate to them when they're having problems and how to train them, you know, the best. Know what their weak areas are, how you can build them up. Because you're accountable for them. They're your people. And you're the guy that's the leader. You need to be the first one out there.

And, you know, for me, I'm not going to ask you to do something I won't do. I'm not going to go to you and say, hop out the door of the airplane here. If I'm not going to do it, I tend to do more of follow me. I'm going out there. I'm going to do it too. And I'm going to set the example for you. This is how I want you to do it. So trying to get that through to them.

And trying to get through in terms of think of yourself as a professional. Think about your medical doctor. every day you should be reading, learning, studying, getting better. Every technique that you know, you should be trying to improve it. Every day is about practice. Whatever it is that you're doing, ask yourself, is there somebody else better than you? Then you need to be practicing.

You've got to get as good as the best because you want to be that person. And you don't get there by just wishing, hoping. You've got to get out and take the action. some of the things that you're going to be doing, particularly if we think Ranger, Special Forces, Seal, all that stuff's a mindset. It's a mindset. You've got to think like that.

You can be in the greatest physical condition in the world, but if you don't have a mindset, you can't do it. And you guys are already seeing here, and Rangers go, how many of your buddies have already dropped out? When I went through Ranger School, we started out with 248 people. When we finished, we had 175 actually make it to the end of the course. 75 of those got a Ranger tab. The rest of them didn't.

So they're only 75 Rangers, you know, produced. And it was mindset. It wasn't it. They were bigger, stronger, faster. They had the mental capacity to keep going on one mill a day. three hours of sleep a night, keep pushing, and still be able to think cognitively enough to put together a good tactical plan, communicate that plan, execute that plan. And it takes work.

And you need to be the leader, so people follow you. So, you know, whatever it is that I'm going to do out there that I expect you to do, I want to be doing it to the utmost of my ability. If you're going to jump out of an airplane with a rope tied on to you to pull the parachute out, I'm going out from 30,000 feet halo. And that's what I do. If you have to have a landings on the size of a football field to get into, I'll cut it down to a third of that and do it in the dark.

I want you to say it can be done better. And if you can beat me, more power to you. Because now what you've done is told me I need to practice more. But you're going to make a word for it. Yeah. Yeah, it's the part that you said about being a professional. And when I talk to young seals or young Marines or soldiers or airmen, sailors, whoever, you know, I always say, I always say you're a professional. And then I tell them, this is your life.

This right here is your life. Everything else is secondary to what you're doing right here. And you need to study, you need to learn, you need to read, you need to practice, you need to rehearse. and you need to do that all the time because you're never going to be good enough. And you need to make this right here your life. You got a couple other notes in here. One of them just says Staff Sergeant Shelley.

What's that all about? When I went through Ranger School in the mountain phase, there was an African-American ranger instructor there. I'm called Sergeant Shelley, hardcore, hardcore dude. Rarely did he pass anyone on patrol. And he graded me one time, and I passed. When I came back from Vietnam and went to the Ring of the Department, I ended up in the mountains.

He ended up on my team. So now I've got the famous Sergeant Shelley on my team. And I thought, man, this is cool. We go on a patrol where I'm grading the Patoon leader, he's grading a Patoon sergeant. It's 18 degrees outside. Shelley shows up. He's got his fatigue shirt on, but he's got his sleeves rolled up. I said, where's your Parker?

I don't have a Parker. Wear your gloves. I don't need gloves. It's 18 degrees. He said, okay. I'm fine. hard dude you know and then

we're out on patrol the snow is almost knee deep we're dragging the Rangers through it they're tired they're cold and you know so I call the next patrol leader next person who's going to take over the the platoon and I say all right Ranger

take out your mouth and I want you to show me 10 digit coordinates to where we're standing right now because you've got to know where you're starting from and you kind of looks at me and I said, take your map out. I don't have a map, sir. Why don't you have a map? He said, well, Sergeant Shelley took my map when we stopped back there and we had to go admin because of the guy getting a frostbite. He took my map. We didn't go ask Sergeant Shelley to give

your mouth back, tell him you need it. I can't do that. Why not? So, sir, he built the fire with my map. I said, okay, then you need to find somebody here that's going to loan your map. You're going to be the patrol leader. You've got to have a map. Back then, you could do a lot of things that you can't do now. Sergeant Shelley would take onions, cut them in half, rub them all over him. He would eat garlic.

he would take him some Kentucky fried chicken with him in a bag and so when it was dark and the ranger students you only had to feed them once every three days back then if they forgot to call in resupplies they didn't get any food or if they called them for resupplies and they didn't ask for food they just got ammunition so they were always hungry and you get under a poncho at night and sergey would say all right ranger show me show me where we are on the map and the ranger would would start to point out where he wear it. And nobody under the poncho can breathe. You know, Shelley smells so bad.

You just taking their breath, their eyes are watering. Then the guy starts to point to where they are in the mouth, and he drops his chicken leg on his finger. He said, don't you touch that chicken leg? Don't you dare lick your finger? Now, show me where you are. I mean, he'd do things like that to him all the time. And he was very good, but he was very hard.

and then as I started to develop a similar reputation they would hear about it at Fort Benning and when they got to the mountain phase and Shelley and I would walk in to take over the patrol for the next 24 hours and we'd introduce ourselves you could see the looks on their face oh no one's bad enough

we got both of them at the same time no one's going to pass but yeah I mean Shelley was a super guy They were really smart. And you got another name down here, Bob Howard. Bob Howard, Medal of Honor winner. He was sogged down at Contoon, wounded like 13 times, eight Purple Hearts.

He was a tough guy. He came up and flew a visual recond with us one time. And, you know, I had already heard some things about him. man I'm kind of nervous about getting in a helicopter with him because I mean he just draw his bullets I mean you know I'm sure he's gonna save most of us but you know I might not be one he's a hard dude and then he came through Ranger School when I was an instructor so I mean I already he came through Ranger School yeah so you're an instructor he came back from SOG and it was coming through Ranger School you know

and I ended up grading him. I mean, he did a great job, but he was a hard dude. And then we went to the infantry officer advance course. He was the company commander of my class. So we were there for a year together like that. You know, he didn't believe in foul language. You're going to clean your language up if you were in his organ.

organization. He did a lot of things. He, you know, he was promoted to captain and retired as a full colonel, ran to airborne school for a while. I did all kinds of things. But, you know, he, in 11 months he was put in for the medal of honors three times. Got it, got it once, got, you know, DFCs for the other, a warrior. At one time he was, I think he was the most decorated person on active duty. And then, you know, after him, after, I mean, you've got cancer and passed away. And then I think Bargewell kind of took over as the most decorated for a while. Wow.

So, hardcore, sog guy. So at what point did you decide this is going to be your career? Have you already decided that? Or are you still thinking, well, I'll do another tour in Vietnam. No, I'm in. By the time I got through with Sog, I mean, what would I do if I got out? Yeah. You know, but I want to go do some other things.

In the interim, I'll do the Ranger stuff to get ready to come back. I'll do another tour here and then figure out, you know, where I go from, you know, SOG. So now it's 1970. Right. And... Are you seeing the war wind down yet or not really? It's still going pretty strong from where I am, what I'm seeing. So I'm still expecting to get orders anytime.

And, you know, that happened. But before that happened, I got a call from Dick Meadows one day. And he said, this is me. I can't tell you anything except you're going to get orders. and you really want to do this. I need you. Click. So then I got orders to go somewhere on temporary duty.

Another guy in the Ranger Department got it. And Meadows was in the Ranger Department at the time, and then he'd already been moved out on temporary duty for some reason, and then two more of us get orders like that. The Ranger Department commander said, what's going on? Somebody better tell me what's going on. you started raising so much, you know, disturbance about not knowing what was going on

that they counsel our orders, mine and the other guy, because of the security. They didn't want people asking questions about something might be going on. So, you know, several months later, that was the raid into North Vietnam and to Sante to the POWD count. Got it. So, you know, I had been picked for that. you know, just didn't get to go. Unbelievable mission, probably one of the most successful missions we've ever had,

except no prisoners. They had just been moved. But the training, the knowledge and stuff that came out of that, and the way those guys trained and, you know, having to build the P.O.W. Camp every night in the darkness so they could practice on it because daytime, the Russian satellites could see it, so you had to time, all of that stuff.

And then talking about practice, once they figured out how they were going to do the mission, they practiced the mission over 170 times. And it took a long time to do a mission. So it was most of the night. And they were just every day, every night, they'd go practice that mission. And, you know, training during a day with their skills,

everybody knew their job. I mean, one of the guys, when they landed in the compound, one of the guy's job was to take out a guard tower. And the helicopter was going to land, and he had a certain number of steps to run to get down behind a big tree that was there and then use that as cover while he took out the guard tower. Helicopter lands. He runs over, gets down, knels down, starts firing, taking out the guards up there, and then some of the, Something says, hey dude, there's no tree here. Where's your tree? And look, it had been cut down.

But he was right where he was. If the tree had been there, he was in the right place. He had rehearsed it so many times. And all the stuff was like that, you know. And you got Dick Meadows out there doing his thing. So, anyway. Then when did you get orders to go back? About, I'd been there about eight months.

and I got orders to go back. I had actually signed out and was starting to go on leave. I was going to get, you know, you get a 30-day leave before you have to go. And then I got orders revoking those orders, because at that time, to be an instructor in the Ranger department, you had to have combat experience. And they're running out of people with, you know, particularly officers with combat experience because they're getting out.

Yeah. So they put an operational hole on myself, and I think about three or four other guys that said, nope, you're not going anywhere. You're going to stay right where you are, keep doing what you're doing. So I was already set to go back, to go to SOG, had everything set up, and then they say, no, you're going to remain in place. So how long did you end up staying as a ranger instructor? A little over three years.

Yeah, a long time. And now you definitely are seeing the war wind down. I'm seeing the war wind down. I'm seeing the protest. I'm seeing a lot of different things now. But still very proud to be in the military, proud to be a ranger, special forces, and whatever. So I'm not thinking about getting out now.

And you got married sometime around this time frame? That deal was confirmed right after. I got orders revoking the trip back to Vietnam. So, yeah. The deal got confirmed. I like that. Yeah, because what I had said was it would probably be better. Let me do the tour.

And when I come back, you know, then we can get married. Rather than, you know, something happening to me and you become a widow and all that kind of stuff. Let's not do that. but once my orders were revoked then okay now we can move forward we go ahead and do it and then your next tour was went to Korea

yes well I went to the advanced course down at Benning for a year and I went from there to Korea what were you do what the the after your officer advanced course yeah and that's to prepare you to be a company commander company commander or yeah really to start moving you up toward the next level

If you're going to get promoted, you know, you've got to go to the advanced course. You know, and that's when Bob Howard was down there. There were some other people from Saga and you there. Was it interesting to see the guys, like the guys from Saga, the guys from special forces in there, now they're teaching the company commanders for infantry. What kind of lessons were going back and forth from those two elements? You know, being there, I learned a lot about, you know, just the mechanized units and things like that, you know, because I've never been in one. I've been in, you know, some kind of special ops group.

I didn't understand about people outside of special ops. I didn't understand about someone that you could say, okay, we got to get this accomplished this afternoon, Sergeant Jones. and this afternoon I go, look, and it's not done. Why? How could that happen? I mean, you tell a special ops guy, I mean, this needs to be done. I mean, it was a different mindset, different. I'm not trying to demean anybody that wasn't in special arts, but it's just a different mindset.

So getting used to that. When I got to Korea, I had, well, ahead of time I had, written a letter to the commanding general. I found out I was going to second infantry division, and he was prior SF. So I had written a letter to him and said, you know, I'm coming. I want to command a company,

but I want to command a ranger company. I think the second FDivision could benefit from a provisional ranger company. So what I'd like to do is take over a company and let me convert it. And, you know, if anything happens with North Korea, I'm out there. You know, you put us in there first. I mean, we'll go do it.

And it created a lot of controversy with the staff and other people that found out that I had written a commanding general a letter. In fact, in the battalion that I was assigned to, there was a couple weeks there before I got to take over the company, the battalion commander brought me in right off the bat and he said let me tell you something Thompson you never been in a real army unit you won't last a month you'll be relieved of your command within a month you're a snake eater you don't know how we do things and you're not going to survive here and I'm sorry that I'm not going to be here to see it but you know I'm leaving Korea in about a week or so, but my replacement will see you. And I thought, man, that's a motivational way to greet a new guy coming in. So anyway, a company called Bunky Bravo, it became my company, and within a few days,

we painted the wall of the building, you know, black and gold. It became Bravo Rangers. And we had a game there. It was called Combat Football. You had 40 people on the field from each team with two balls in play at the time. So it's 40 people per side. Yeah. So like platoon strength. And you had 10 substitutes that you could use.

So before I took over, I went down and I got a new first sergeant. He and I came in at the same time. So I said, let's go down and watch them play this combat football game. what's going on. So we go down. Bravo Company couldn't get enough people on the field to play the game. They had to forfeit the game because nobody would go out there except, you know, half a dozen people. And I'm thinking, why are they not going out there? I told the first side, and I said, top, when we take over, things are going to change around here. This company is going to see the world differently.

So once we took over, we had a combat football game a couple of days later. So took the company down to the field, and they're all standing there, and I walked out onto the field, and I faced them, and I said, okay, I'm number one. Top, where are you? First sergeant went running out. I said, okay, top, you number two. Where are my lieutenants? Lieutenant's, get out here. Okay, now we got some more players. Where are the NCO? Why are there no NCOs out here? All the NCOs get on the field.

Okay. Top figure out how many spaces we have left in case some of the troops want to play. They were all out on the field wanting to play. I said, man, if all the officers and the NCOs are going to play, it's like we were talking about before. I'm not going to put you out on a game like that where you could break your leg or something if I'm afraid to go out there. You know, that's leadership. You get out there. Follow me. I'll show you how to do it. I might not be the best player on the field, but I'm going to give it my best. Won the division championship twice while I was there. How did two parts, when you took over Bunky Bravo, which I'm imagining

there's a pretty slack attitude for them. And, you know, sometimes people get the impression, oh, well, when you come in like that, you've got to drop the hammer on everyone. How did you balance dropping the hammer to everyone creating a distance between you and them and actually, you know, and you just described one way that you did it, which is, hey, I'm going to be the first one out here. I'm going to lead from the front. Was there any other techniques as a leader that you utilized to turn that,

to turn the folks that forfeited matches to the folks that win the championships two times? There were several things that happened, as you can imagine, with Bucky Bravo. There was a lot of drug uses, particularly marijuana. him. So I was walking through the company area, excuse me, about a week before I took over. And I was walking by the barracks and I was, the window was open and I was listening. And they were talking about this new guy coming in as company commander. And they were talking about, you know, we have to get rid of him. And they were talking to a Korean guy. And they were talking about

what's it going to cost us to have something happen to him? So I hear that for a little bit, and then all of a sudden I just kicked the door open, and I step in, and I said, you know, we haven't met yet. I'm Captain Thompson, and I'm curious, do you have enough money to pay this guy to take me out? Because if you don't, let me loan you some money so he can try to do that. But you don't notice, you know, drugs are going to be out of here. Everything's going to change around here like that. So you get with the program, you're in good shape.

You want to use drugs, you're going to have a real problem. And I'll fast forward just a little bit. But what I found was you could catch someone with marijuana. And as a company commander, I could fine them. I could take their money. I could reduce their rank. But I noticed that had no meaning to them. So then I thought, what do they value the most, their free time?

So, you know, the guy gets caught in marijuana and he comes in and he says, how much it's going to cost me, sir? I said, I don't want your money. And he's what? I said, I don't want you money. But at 1700, you report here to the first sergeant. I said, look out my window. You see that big creek right next to the area here? Yes, sir.

I said, you see all those rocks. on the creek bank on the other side and says yes sir I said tomorrow they're gonna be back on this side what you can't do that I said can I can give you extra duty and that's what's gonna happen every night for a while I can give you seven days of extra duty and you won't be going to the village in a word spread like wildfire he's in it he's a crazy man you know he doesn't want your money he's gonna keep you here moving blocks back in the wharf so we started to get the drugs out, things like that. You know, we had the combat football. I was able to get extra helicopters

so we could, you know, they got to play with helicopters. They got to learn how to build rope bridges. We put on a demonstration for the president when he came over, different things like that. And then one of the techniques, excuse me, this won't show up, but I just want to give you an example of the power of motivation, and it's like getting trouble here, company formation, and I said, all right, you guys need to understand. You belong to Bravo Rangers. You're better than anybody else here. You can outperform them, you can outrun them, you can outdo whatever. This is a special company that you belong to, and the rest of them don't. So when I finished talking, I want you to report

to the first sergeant, and he's going to issue you a Bravo Ranger card. And this card says that you are a member of Bravo Rangers. And you need to understand if anyone in this company, including myself, catches you down in the village and says, show me your card and you can't produce it, you're going to buy everybody at that table a round of whatever they're drinking. And also understand if you lose this thing, you have to come to me to get a new one

and explain to me how you lost it. I won't say necessarily on the podcast here what it says on the back of this card, but I'll let you look at the backup. They got so excited about those cards. That was the most valuable thing that they owned in the company. Well, I'll read one part of it. You've never lived until you've almost died, and until you fight for it, life has a special flavor that only a ranger will ever know.

Bravo Rangers. And then there's some various special activities that the Bravo Rangers are capable of executing. And they're not all legal, I'll say. So that's outstanding. and outstanding. But the power hasn't happened to me for some time now.

But in the 90s, I mean, I was in Korea in the 70s, in the 90s, I'd be walking through the Atlanta airport, and a guy would say, hey, sir, you know, and I'm Sergeant Jones or whomever, and

he'd introduce himself, and the next thing out of his mouth was, you've got your card. And he would have his card. I mean, it was amazing how many people I would run into over the years and one of the first things they would say, you got your card, I got mine, they were still carrying these cards. That's why it's in here. If I see one, first thing they're going to do is ask me about it. You know, I'm a big, I don't know what the right word is, but I learned a lot from David Hackworth, from Colonel David Hackworth. And one of the things that he did was rename

the hopeless battalion in Vietnam that he took over into the hardcore. And like when I took over for task unit Bravo at SEAL Team 3 as the task unit commander, I immediately changed the name to task unit bruiser instead. Same exact idea. And I got a great email recently from a guy that had changed the name of his, he's at a big construction company and had his team, changed the name of his team and it like changed the attitude. And all of a sudden they started completing projects.

and just that little element. And there's an important part to it is you can't just change the name and expect like, oh, now everything's different. That's an element of it. You have to do the other things. You have to say, oh, we're going to work hard, we're going to fight hard,

we're going to win this championship, we're going to be the best here. You can't just change the name and expect that to happen. You're going to have to do work behind it. You know, pride comes from struggle and overcoming struggle. That's what pride comes from.

So when people ask me how do you develop pride in a team? Cool. You want to develop pride in a team? You make them do hard stuff, hard training, go through. You know, even with military units that have battle streamers, that's the pride that they've carried for 50 years, 100 years since they did whatever, you know, thing in World War I or World War II or Korea or Vietnam. That's something that that unit achieved and that gives them pride. So you can't just change the name and expect, oh, cool, I change the name.

Now I'm good to go. No, you need to change the name. And then you need to give them something to be proud of, which means some kind of struggle to get through, some kind of pain to get through that not only does it give them the sense of achievement, it also brings them together. Right. Because when you, that shared suffering that you go through, whether it's boot camp or airborne school or special forces selection or a hard training mission,

all those things, what they do is bring you together. And the ultimate form of that is combat, you know, which is why you can go through a, be a member of a guy that was in SOG, and you reach out to tilt you guys never met before and all of a sudden, hey, yep, we'll meet up at some point and you can move forward.

You guys have that camaraderie because of what that unit achieved and the struggles that you went through. So the other question I want to ask is when it relates to going, how do you keep that in check, at least, well, from your perspective for you, because now all of a sudden you've got guys

that are walking around with a chest boat out and you start get professional jealousy from the other company commanders and they're going to try and make you look bad and they're talking behind your, how did you contend with that kind of thing? And keeping your guys from becoming arrogant, which is a possibility. It's a real issue, a big issue. And it also happens internally.

So we're out on a range practicing, and we're at there for a week. And all of a sudden, the first sergeant says, sir, you need to come with me. We got a little issue going on out here. and there was a little bank that had a road on it and there was a little road, you know, 30, 40 feet below. Third platoon was coming down the road. First platoon was going the other way. Third platoon made some little comment to First Ptune.

And a hail of rocks came down. You know, we had to go break up a rock fight because they were so pumped and, you know, no, you're not better enough. You can't call this name. Oh, gee. you know all right guys these are your own people yeah these are you know the enemies outside the wire and yeah you can be fired up but yeah and other company commanders uh even another

battalion commanders were upset um because the general i mean i'd been there maybe well a week and all of a sudden i mean in command and all of a sudden the siren the siren goes off. And the zyrene is deploy to your battle positions, and you don't know if it's real or not. It's just deploy. So I run back down to my, you know,

at my headquarters, and the first sergeant's there and say, okay, what's up? He said, you know, you've got to deploy to the battle positions. I think you need to go to the battalion commander's office and find out which battle plan we're implementing.

Don't worry about the company. I know we have to be out the front gate in two hours. We'll be there. You go find out where we're going and what we're going to have to do. I'll make sure we get everybody here, and we load up everything and take it with us. So I go get it, and I come back, and we're in the head of a whole battalion. So we're going to lead the whole brigade out of Camp Hovey to wherever the battle position is. and just as we start to move, a Jeep runs over my radio operator's foot, breaks his foot,

so I go throw him in the amulets. But we go and we get, you know, late at night, we get up on a mountain in the area that we're supposed to defend, and we have to dig in, dig fighting positions and everything. It's just getting daylight. I got everybody dug in, and they're putting in firing, state, aiming stakes and all that and I hear this wop what and a helicopter pops up sets down on the ridge this guy gets out and all I can see are those stars on us and he comes comes over and you know I'm saluting and he says you know Captain

Thompson I want to see your fighting positions so he walks around the ridge and we talk about him and he's asking me courts why did you put this one Why is it already like this? He asked the soldiers in the fighting position, some questions here and there. And it takes about 30 minutes, and he comes back. He gets in his helicopter and he leaves. And I said, wow, I wasn't expecting the division commander

to show up all of a sudden. It wasn't 20 minutes. Wop, wop, wop, wop. Here's the helicopter back up there again. He gets off. His boss, a three-star, steps out with him. And he comes to me and says, I want you to take us around.

I want you to show him your battle positions. So they get in the helicopter and leave when I was hero. I mean, he's ranting and raving to the whole division about how great, you know, Bravo Company looked and all this stuff and the battalion commander on the back and throwing my name out. And then he starts showing up at least once a week at my mess hall. The Division Commander walks into my old company mess hall to eat breakfast on a regular basis. and you know

and we talk about the things I've got the company doing and what I need them to do and you start to share that you know you get the company and you get you said why do you think the division commander comes down here does he go to other people's and I'll say no he's coming to a Bravo company

look around you what do you guys do I mean you're ferocious at combat football combat football is his thing he invented it and you guys are animals out there and he loves it and we won best tactical platoon in a contest it was had. I called Private Jones up, and I said, look, Jones won third place in the Division Christmas card drawing contest.

Third place, guys, out of about 10,000 people in the division, you got third place. I mean, it doesn't matter what we do. You guys are winners. We can do it. We just keep this up. And, you know, so just constantly having things to do. And like I said, we won the football championship twice. We won the taekwondo championship.

You know, I was a player coach on our team. We won the taekwondo championship in the division. And just all kinds of things. Because they were so pumped up and they do whatever you'd pour them at. And it was like they couldn't lose except, you know, had to put up with the people who were jealous because he was down there with us all the time. And then, you know, they sent us to, they sent us to be the immediate reaction force for the nuclear sites. You had to rotate people through there. So you're on 30 minutes notice to deploy

to whatever nuclear site might be under attack. So I walked in and we're looking around and I'm looking at the battle plans. And I'm saying, you know, this is pretty cool. I mean, maybe they'll activate us and we'll have to go do something. I said, you know, I would feel better if I could see the lie of ammunition that we have for the mission.

Well, you can't see it. They're in foot lockers. The magazines are locked up. They have steel bands around them. You can't really see it. I said, get a pair of bulk colors. I want to see it. opened those boxes up.

Nobody had opened one of those boxes in 10 years. The magazines were rusty. The ammunition wouldn't feed out of it. Created a major stirer when I reported that. We needed new ammunition because it wasn't functional. A few days later, I said, you know, we've got a battle plan here that says we're supposed to fly into this LZ up here and support around this nuclear site. I said, get a helicopter, get some choppers, let's load up the first battalion. I want to make that insertion.

You couldn't land. Trees had grown up since that plan was written. There was no LZ there. So I reported that, and battalion commanders said, Thompson back off. I'll try not define anything. Just back up. You got me in so much trouble? I said, it's not trouble.

I mean, what if we had to do something? Yeah. Anyway, that was a lot of people. Well, those are awesome leadership lessons. And then after that, you go back to Bragg and emergency deployment readiness, exercise, evaluation for special forces and rangers. So you're like an evaluator at this point?

Yeah. So all the special forces and rangers, you know, came under the 18th Airborne Corps. The division commander from Korea is now the 18th Airborne Corps commander. Okay. Did he call you out by name and bring you back? Yeah. So he had me brought there to do special projects and things. And one of them was you've got to be on this team. I want somebody that knows about special ops that can deploy. So I would show up at a Ranger Battalion headquarters at 2 o'clock in the morning, hand the CQ a paper classified document that says wheels up in two hours. And, you know, kind of get out of the way because that place was kind of.

got to come alive. And then I would go with them. I'd be one of the evaluators. If they put in a Halo team, I would jump with the Halo team and evaluate them. We'd take them on classified missions sometimes. There's a lot of things that we would do with them that I just ate up because, you know, it was all special ops stuff. So I got to do that.

That was a lot of fun. And, you know, the sniper team came under us. All the sniper training at 4. Brigg that was under us so I could go out and play with the snipers and you know shoot and improve my skills and so what are you at this point at this point are you a major excuse me um are you still a captain no I'm still a captain and then what about the next time that dick Meadows called you up circa 1978 he actually showed up at my house okay one better I I Several people like that, that if they called or they showed up at my house, my wife was not happy

because she knew they were there for one reason. They were something they wanted me to do that she was not going to want me to do. So Meda shows up. I didn't know where he's coming. You know, he pulls up in my driveway. I was outside and I saw him. So we go talk and he said, I need you. said we're putting together a special group

I need you to come in and be part of my cadre to help set this thing up and also evaluate and train the people and be an operator in this group when we get it set up and he said I really can't tell you any more than that is you the guy I want I said does it mean right now

and he said yeah and I said my wife is pregnant with a third child. I just sold my house here. I just bought a house in Athens, Georgia. I just got accepted into the doctoral program and University of Georgia and named off a bunch of things like that.

And I said, I can't just stop this process right here. And he was not happy. And, you know, his final comment to me was you hung up your guns. And I said, haven't hung up my guns. I just, I need to delay it for about, you know, two years. And I can come back and do anything you want. He said, no, I need you right now.

And that was the last time we had a face-to-face encounter. That was it. And the group he was setting up, Delta. Yeah, you said that was the last time he ever asked you to go anywhere with him. Yeah. That's crazy. Now, what had made you want to go to college? And what were you going to study?

You asked me early on about going to OCS and only having a year and a half of college. When I left the 2nd Infantry Division as a captain and came back to the States, I was assured secondary zone promotion. I was going to make major way before any other. the captains in my year group and stuff, it was a done deal. Promotion list came out and I wasn't on it, which is not bad because many people,

only a few people when you get a secondary, but I wasn't on it. So when I called Milperson and at D.C. and said, what happened? And he said, well, you know, you were not considered. Why not? you said you know first thing we did was that we went through all the records and divided you into two piles college degree not a college degree you don't have a college degree that was you were not eligible you wasn't even looked at beyond that so that irritated me you know I said look at my performance nobody's outperforming me and all this stuff so then eventually I I talked to him and I said you wasted all your luck staying alive in combat

Yeah, I guess I did. And I said, you know, okay, then I'll go to school at night, and I'll finish the degree. So I did, and then once I finished his degree, then I got a call from them saying, how would you like to go get a master's degree? I said, you wouldn't let me get an undergraduate, but now you want to send me for a master's. I said, okay, I'm interested in that. My plan was, why do I want a master's? Let me find a school that has an ROTC program

that I could get a follow-on assignment to you after I finish the master's program. So what I do is I enroll in a Ph.D. program, complete the master's along the way. You know, I'll have a two-year or more assignment with RLTC. I'll be able to finish out the doctorate. So the next time you want to ask about education, you know, I'll have it. You can call me doctor major.

That's right. You know, so here I come. Like I said before, you know, if you're going to do it, you do it. You practice, you do what you have to do. You take the lead. And what did you get your doctor then? Psychology. So, you know, I think we talked before about, I started out in chemistry.

and I found myself on the battlefield leading men in combat, and I was kind of looking around and thinking, I need to learn how to motivate people. I need to understand the psychology of motivation, the psychology of people. Human nature. Yeah, if I'm going to be a leader, I need to learn about that, not chemistry.

So when I went back to school, I went back to school with psychology so I could learn how to do that stuff with them. And in reality, I think I've gone full circle. Now I understand it's the chemicals and things in your brain is driving all this other stuff. If you deal with those, there's a lot you can do. But, yeah, I got to do a lot of things.

I helped put together the Airland Battle 2000, how we were going to do war fighting in the 21st century. I got to do all kinds of research on sleep, on stress. How are we going to fight? Because we were predicting in the 80s, we were predicting the next ground war was going to be 100 hours straight, you know, before there was any break. So how are you going to keep people awake that long and keep them effective, perform the mission, how are you going to create high performing leaders, high performing battles, high performing teams? What does that mean? So I got to go all over the place and meet really smart people. I learned from them and work on projects like that, do research like that, a lot of which was used in some in the Falklands, because I worked with the British Army staff.

And the head general at the time there said, we're not doing that. They're just going to stay awake. I said they can't stay awake. Not that long. So there's some things you have to do But he discovered that in the Falklands You have to do some things to keep them going

And then, you know, the Gulf War, the ground phase was 100 hours My brother, you know, Butch, Helicopter pilot or Apache pilot He didn't get out of the aircraft He would come in to refuel They would feed him, you know, while the aircrafts rearm and refueling And send him right back out and using some different things.

Excuse me, keep them away. So anyway. So then was the command and general staff college? Was that your final tour? No. That was one where my luck had run out. So when I finished, I was going back to a regular unit. And then they realized that I was the only,

infantry officer in the class that had a PhD. And the general out there, the commandant said, you're not going anywhere. You're staying here to work with me on this airland battle stuff. I need somebody that thinks like you do and has the combat experience and everything to work on this with me. So they kept me there for four years,

counting the year I was in school. And then they called me up and said, how would you like to be the professor of military science at the University of Georgia? So you go back and I said, when are you calling me? Where's this coming from? And I said, well, actually the university is turning down everybody we send. Every applicant to be the professor of military science, they're finding a reason not to accept him.

But they can't do that to you. you've had an ROTC assignment there you've been the XO of the department you got a PhD a master's in PhD from there you know academically you've got everything that's saying to your names off all his stuff and he says they have to take you

and I think okay I'll try that so they took me and I just finished up there because I had started high performing systems kind of on the side it's just something to play

play with, but it started growing so fast. And, you know, you can't have an engagement with a client. And then the general decides, I need you at Fort Bragg for a meeting on Monday morning. And you can't do that. I mean, you can't turn the clients down if you want to keep them. So now I'm having a conflict. So I decided, you know, 21 years, that's enough. I'll get out and go do the company because I've set the company up to be able to do the kinds of things. things I like to do. I mean, I don't get to shoot at people, but they don't get to shoot at me either. Which is all so nice.

Yeah. Yeah. So, but at that time, outdoor training was a big deal, ropes, courses, all that kind of repelled. Throw in the bribe patch. I mean, I can do that stuff in my sleep, and I enjoy doing it. You know, so we had executive jumping off cliffs and going down rivers and rafts and all all of the stuff. That played out, you know, toward the end of the 90s, people started saying,

been there, done that, I want something different. So, you know, we changed up a little bit. Yeah. So somewhere along the way you wrote, you wrote this book, The Stress Effect, which I read and definitely has some really good information in it. And I wanted to hit some of the information that you put in there. Just to kind of give people feel for the book, I'm not going to do as much of a detailed as, well, as I would do with, like, the document that we read about rest and recuperation on the last podcast. But, you know, just to give people some feel for what this book contains.

So I'm coming out of here out of the gate. Researchers, Shelley Kirkpatrick and Edwin Lock State, it is unequivocally clear that leaders are not like other people. Leaders do not have to be great men or women by being intellectual geniuses or omniscient profits to succeed. But they do need to have the right stuff. And this stuff is not equally present in all people. So this is interesting because you're saying something that a lot of people don't want to hear. Right. Which is, hey, there are certain leadership traits that you may or may not be born with.

And that's the reality of the situation. Now, I talk about this a lot too, and I actually say the same thing, and I have this description that I use and saying that, you know, you're going to get different capabilities that you have as a human being. And what you can do as a leader is if you have an area of weakness, if you're smart, you'll bring people onto your leadership team that complement your areas of weakness. but you can only do that if you have the humility to admit that, hey, I'm not that great at planning or, hey, I'm not that great at paperwork, or hey, I'm not that good at talking to the troops. Whatever areas of weakness you have, if you can admit to them and bring people onto your team that can compliment that and say, hey, you know what, I'm not great talking to troops. Dick, you know, can you get out there and deliver the word?

And you go, yeah, got it. And that's fine, as long as I can admit it. But if I won't admit it, my ego's in the way. And even though I'm not good at communicating with the troops, I just, I'm the one that has to get up there and do it and I bumble around and and leave them walking away not feeling confident about it That's bad So this this idea right here that We all get you know you're gonna get some qualities, but you're gonna be missing some too and so that's something we all have to

Admit You go here you talk about learned ability which includes job knowledge skills and experiences critical component of leadership and decision making selecting a former GE executive just because she was an employee of GE to run a hospital corporation or a publishing company does not make sense Just because someone worked for an organization without with an outstanding reputation doesn't necessarily mean that individual will become an outstanding leader who makes outstanding decisions Especially if she does not have the learned ability for that role level and industry This is not to say that high performing leaders can't successfully switch organization and assume higher roles. However, it's not a given.

Important point there, I have a company where we place veterans into organizations. And a lot of times people think, oh, well, the person has veteran experience, so they're going to be 100% good to go. And as much as I would love to say that, you can't say that.

That's why we do a screening process and we actually train them for that transition. but this is the same thing. People, just because people are from an organization like, you know, GE has their reputation for their leadership, but that doesn't mean that that person is necessarily a good leader. And you have to be careful of that. And this section here, I have to say was, I found very interesting. Individual leader complexity, find the person who can do the one.

work. And so you get into this topic here. Simply put, leader complexity refers to a leader's ability to handle the requirements of his or her job. Depending on the size and type of an organization, a leader's job is often enormously complex. Two factors determine ability to work at a particular level of complexity. Learned and innate abilities.

So once again, you're talking about innate abilities, meaning that people have limitations. Right. And, you know, my big point to that or my thoughts around that is the people that really have problems aren't the people that don't realize that they have limited, that they have limited innate capabilities, which means everyone. We all have things that we're not good at. The people that can't admit that are going to have real problems. Now you get into this.

All leaders have limitations to what they can learn and how far up the leadership ladder. they can climb. Inate ability as it pertains to leadership consists of four major factors, cognitive ability, emotional intelligence, motivation, and personality. And this is the most, this is this section that I really was very interested in because I work with a lot of different leaders all the time because I have a consulting company too and we work with leaders all the time. So this topic here of cognitive ability. Cognitive ability is how a leader processes, organizes stores and retrieves information, thus determining how she creates the world she lives in, makes sense of it, and acts on it. Cognitive ability is a key determinant of a leader's ability

to be successful at different organizational role levels. Unlike learned skills, cognitive ability is not trainable. It is a hardwired ability that unfolds through a natural maturation process across one's lifespan. A leader's cognitive ability determines how she approaches problem solving, decision-making, and interpersonal interactions. Let's look at the general characteristics of cognitive ability going from high to low. So now we start talking about the actual person that has high cognitive ability. And this is interesting, and we may have to come back to this one, that it's not trainable.

That's an interesting statement. Because I would think, and I've seen people get better at, you know, coming up with simple solutions and dealing with stress. So maybe that doesn't fall. Those things don't fall quite in the category of cognitive ability. But here's what you say about the higher leader's cognitive ability is, the lower the need for consistency in the information being processed. This is a very important thing, right?

I'm going to read it again. the higher a leader's cognitive ability level is, the lower the need for consistency in the information being processed. What that means to me is, and this is very, very prudent on the battlefield, is like, you're not going to get consistent information out there. And if that bothers you, if you can't wrap your mind around different pieces of information coming in that are contradictory to one another, you're going to have a problem making a decision.

That's what you're saying right there. Yes. You need to be able to have contradicting thoughts, ideas, concepts, information in your mind, both of them at the same time and still function. And they're opposites of each other, but you can still deal with that. It's not going to stop you from moving forward. And you'll find a way to use that information to fit in with what you're trying to do. Yeah, the hopes that I have in going through this with a little bit of detail is that people recognize this. People recognize what we're saying.

I wrote one of the books I wrote it's called The Dicotomy of Leadership. And it's about this idea that you as a leader are going to have different forces pulling you in opposite directions. And you need to learn how to balance those different opposing forces with just about every trait that we have. That's what you need to be able to do. So I hope when people hear this that they say to themselves, oh, I get wrapped around the axle if two different pieces of information are opposing each other. This is really important. I hope that even though it's not trainable,

I hope that you can actually, when people get recognition of it, they can go, oh, you know what? I know what's happening right now. I'm hearing two different pieces of information. And my tendency is just to want to focus on one or ignore them both. But I don't make a decision where what I need to do is, think about how both these things are actually true or possibly true. All right.

You go on and this is a great example. Consider the question, do cell phones cause brain cancer? You can find as many studies that say it does as it does not. At lower cognitive ability levels, most people would find the inconsistency in the research confusing. Their response would be there must be a right answer. the low cognitive ability leader may choose to ignore the data altogether or pick the data that support her position.

So there you go. Classic example. Hey, look, there's got to be a right answer. We need to know what the real deal is. As you know, you can Google, and right now you can Google anything and you can get supporting data for any hypotheses that you have. Right. And if you have low cognitive ability.

ability, whichever one you think is right, that's where you'll pull all that data to back yourself up. It says this. In contrast, the high cognitive ability leader understands that there is no single answer and tends to look at the implications of cell phone use in the organization or how to put in safeguards just in case the phones do cause cancer. She does not let the inconsistency prevent her from making a larger decision in which cell phones play a role. so you can still function, as you said. Almost any topic contains some level of data inconsistency. What financial markets are going to do in the future?

When the construction industry will rebound? Which airlines will survive? And whether we need more F-A-22 Raptors, which is currently the world's most advanced fighter, the key is that high cognitive ability leaders rise above the level of inconsistency and make decisions. They're not waiting for everything to be perfect. And I would just add to that.

There's a level of cognitive ability that you get to where you realize there is no single right answer for anything. Therefore, any answer that you choose, any solution that you choose will have a downside. at some point in the future, there will be unintended consequences for whatever you choose now. So in a lot of cases, with the people who can think forward, they're looking at which unintended consequences am I willing to accept, you know, at some point. If I have enough time between now and then to begin to put in something that may, you know, counter that. I know they're coming. It's going to happen. but I'm going to make a decision

and we're going to move forward. It's worse not to make a decision because that's an unintended consequence too. There'll be unintended consequences for no action. You go on here. Leaders with lower levels of cognitive ability are constrained by the information they receive. Information must be consistent for them to make sense of it.

High cognitive ability leaders, by contrast, rely on themselves to provide missing information, look for more novel information, and search across more domains to find information, which is interesting. Search across more domains. That means there's a problem over here that's in a certain arena, and a high cognitive thinker will look at that arena and go,

you know what, that reminds me of this other arena. And I can apply this and overlay it to this arena that I'm looking at right now and further my decision-making process. Add color to it. The greater, they show, and this is again, the high cognitive ability leaders, they show greater certainty in judging inconsistent information and are more focused on long-term strategies than low cognitive ability leaders are. The low cognitive ability leaders are looking at the short-term game.

The leader with high cognitive abilities uses multiple dimensions when processing information. This multi-dimensional approach creates a high probability that the leader will match some facet of herself with a facet of another person during interpersonal interactions. This leader is more inclined toward assimilation of information about herself than a leader with lower cognitive ability is. Thus, leaders with high cognitive ability show a propensity for receiving feedback. they seek out information about themselves or open to feedback and assimilate this information into knowledge about themselves. This goes back to me talking about being a humble person. If you're a humble person, you can take feedback and you can put it into your world.

And the part that I found interesting about this is that the high probability, the high cognitive leader will match some facet of herself with the fast of the other person. So when I'm having a discussion with you and you have a different perspective or you're opposing me, you're arguing with me, instead of me saying, no, you're wrong, I will look at you and say, oh, where are they getting that perspective? Oh, I see where he's getting that perspective from. That actually makes sense because he's on the front lines and he's doing this. Oh, okay.

So I actually will put some facet, I will match some fast of myself to you so that I understand your perspective better. With this expanded knowledge and confidence, they can more easily find some aspect of others with which they can connect. And this connection allows them to gain more feedback and knowledge. Again, one of my things that I talk about all the time is just humility and how leaders have to be humble. And which is actually one of the cool things that you said about Barswell, and we never talked about it. But you said, you know, hey, he was really tough. He was super smart. And he was humble.

Those are the qualities you called out. Yeah. And that's what this represents to me. You continue here. A leader with high cognitive ability perceives herself as being more complex than the average individual. In a decision-making situation, she might delay longer and submit a more complicated decision. Now, when I originally read that right there, I had a problem with it. because because one of the mantras, age-old mantras of leadership, combat leadership for sure,

is simplicity, right? You've got to keep things simple. So I'm going to come back to that one because my immediate reaction to it was, wait a second, I don't know if I agree with that because we're talking about this person with a high cognitive ability that's coming up with a more complicated decision. But I'll get back to it here. Her interpersonal interactions, interactions tend to result in greater perceived similarities between herself more senior people. She may perceive differences between herself and others more accurately than a leader

with lower cognitive abilities does. This complex internal structure results in a greater perception of the external environmental structure which can manifest in interpersonal conflict. So again, we have someone that can sense what someone else's perspective is. And this is where I come back to the simple thing. The high cognitive ability leader recognizes when she is communicating with others who are at a lower or higher level cognitive ability. When talking to a lower cognitive ability leader, she recognizes that person's simpler language structure, linear thought process, and shorter term focus, and will understand that the lower cognitive ability leader might not get what she's saying.

So what that tells me you take that one step further, what a really good high cognitive ability leader will do is take the complex answer and simplify it down so that this lower cognitive ability leader can actually understand it. So even though it might be a more complicated decision, the lower cognitive leader below me doesn't need to know that. They're going to get the simplified version that they can grasp and make sense to them and then move forward. Continuing on, when she is talking to someone of equal or higher cognitive ability, she may find that the conversation moves faster and is more enjoyable and stimulating.

Low cognitive ability leaders tend to use fewer dimensions when processing stimuli, resulting in fewer and less complex information domains, and a lower probability of matching some facet of themselves with that of another person. And again, see, this is why I think it's important to talk about this because if you can't relate to other people, if you're having a hard time talking to people up the chain of command, talking to people down the chain of command, talking to your peers, if you're saying, oh, they don't get it, they don't understand, how can they think that way? If you're thinking that, if that's going through your mind, that's a little red flag that you are that's it's a it's a little symbol or a sign of low cognitive ability you're the

one that's not getting it yes so when you get there instead of continuing to point the finger outward take a look at yourself and recognize the fact that there's you need to try and find some common ground with other people and the fact that you can't find common ground with other people and the fact that you can't find common ground with other people is a sign that you have low cognitive ability. And that's a problem. So I'm hoping, again, I know this can't be trained, but I'm hoping that when you become aware of it, you say, oh, that's me. That's me.

And this is the worst part about this whole section. The worst part about this whole section is this. What I'm hoping for is that the people with low cognitive ability will recognize that this is about them, right? This is about me. Okay. I tend to do this sometimes. I, I can't connect with other people. I can't see their perspective. You know what? That's my, that's me. That's on me. That's what I'm hoping people say. Unfortunately, people with low cognitive ability have a much lower chance of actually being able to recognize this. So that's the problem. It's a catch 22. Yeah, it is. Continuing. They tend to

contrast themselves with others that are and are less open to feedback. Another great point. If you're not humble and you're not, again, I use the word humble, if you're not open to people telling you, hey, you know what, you could do this better, that is an actual sign of low cognitive ability. I hate to break the news to you. The next one, in their interpersonal interactions, they tend to perceive themselves as being more similar to their peers and less similar

to their superiors. They are predisposed to be more rigid and concrete in their thinking. This is another. This is something that you can recognize in yourself. This is something I can recognize in myself. When I'm going, no, we got to do it this way. No, this is the way it's got to be. That's an indication to me that I am tending towards low cognitive ability.

And what I need to do is open my mind and try some new things. some new ideas. Otherwise, I'm putting myself on report for being a low cognitive thinker. Let me share one thing. If you're a high cognitive ability person, if you become angry, the tendency is for you to start to drop in levels in terms of your response right now, the interaction right now, The more angry you get, the more you drop really low. And when you hear people arguing, very often, you know, if they're angry, very often,

they both drop way down here. And that's where the problem is. We've got to get you back up. And you hear it all the time in meetings and between people. And just listen to what they're focused on. Listen to the time frame that they're focused on. Listen to the concreteness of what they're focused on. And, you know, you can figure,

out where they are. Now, how can we elevate? If you and I have in this conversation, and I'm down here and I'm really, I've dug my heels in. You're just wrong, Jock. There's something wrong with you. If you can't see my point here, if I'm dug in down here, we're not going to, we're not going to be able to resolve this. Yeah, I just had a discussion like this with a client. It's like, the best thing I can do when you say, I don't like this. I don't like your plan, Jocko. The best thing I can do isn't, well, that's because you don't understand it. The best thing I can say, hey, can you give me some feedback on what it is you don't like about my plan?

Because now, instead of you digging your heels in and looking how you're going to strike me, you're actually looking to formulate a legitimate answer to a legitimate question. And by the way, when you ask that question, I'm not just asking you this question so I can trick you. No, I'm legitimately asking for feedback because maybe you know something that I don't know, or maybe you see something that I don't see. So I immediately get us to start moving up that ladder again instead of down, where when you say, I don't like your plan, I say that's because you're too dumb to understand it. Right.

Where's that conversation going? You just dropped all the way down now. Yeah. You continue on here. The accuracy of their predictions, this is again, low cognitive, the accuracy of their predictions about others is directly proportional to the amount of information they have about others. Their concreteness filters out more aspects of the external environment structure, particularly when they're under stress.

Low cognitive ability leaders tend to have a relatively narrow set of interests and knowledge domains, although they may have an in-depth knowledge in a few areas. Consequently, they look for others who share one or more of their interests. Unlike the high cognitive ability leader, they do not have a broad range of areas of expertise they can use to connect with others. The bottom line is that leaders with, and what that tells me is, hey, you know, I need to get outside my zone, right? Cool. I like jujitsu and I like war. But if that's the only people I hang around with, I'm not expanding my horizons.

So I need to go and play in a band and draw and. and write and hang out with people that are doing those other things as well. The bottom line is that leaders with high cognitive ability are able to possess greater amounts of information and operate more successfully in complex environments with a higher level of inconsistency and ambiguity than can leaders with low cognitive ability. As they rise to higher roles, role levels in an organization, the problems they face become more complex and ambiguous. us. These leaders with high cognitive ability tend to perform well at upper organizational

echelons. So true. I mean, you can think about just the difference in any job, right? Your frontline troops is concerned with, you know, this part of the manufacturing line. It's relatively small. It's not a complex thing. And then the more higher up you get in the organization, the more complex decisions are being made and whatnot. And the good thing is, when we think about cognitive ability is there's a place for everyone. You have a real need for everyone. Someone has to do that day-to-day, hour-to-hour work and be happy with it. Be good, be happy, and go home at the end of the day saying, yes, I knocked that out of the park. Above them, you need somebody with a little bit more that's really good at that level.

and you know so getting the right person into the right role level at the right time because if we think about cognitive ability for a lot of people is is continuing to change so there's like a growth curve that you can see it'll flatten out someplace but as long as they're growing they can take on higher and higher role levels right as they cross those different thresholds and eventually they're going to hit a point where I mean, this is it. They need to be happy here because if you move them up to the next one, they're going to fail. Yeah. And what I've seen with people is there's a certain spot where they go, yeah, this is where I'm at. And I'm comfortable in this area, not comfortable in a bad way of like, oh, in my comfort zone. But you start to move them outside that cognitive ability level and all of a sudden they're stressed. Yes.

Because they're trying to make decisions on inconsistent information and it's too much. And you know what? That's like you just said, that's actually good because now we know what the limitations are. And now you can focus on this cognitive ability level where you excel at. Because by the way, you get somebody with really good cognitive ability and you put them in a job that doesn't require as much. Well, now they're going to be bored. And you use a term in this book, which I had never actually heard before. It's not burnout.

It's the opposite of burnout. It's called Rustout. So that's all good. And like I said, we work with all kinds of organizations. And the other interesting point I got to make is the cognitive ability doesn't measure your intelligence. It measures a bunch of different things. And just like some people are more articulate and some people are taller and some people are shorter. Like this is one of those things where some components combined together.

And you could have somebody that went to an Ivy League school. And I know I got to see this in the SEAL teams. People that went to Ivy League schools, they scored super high on whatever IQ test there are. Their cognitive ability is not high because they can't look at complex things. They get wrapped around minutia or whatever the case may be. So this is a really interesting thing. I would like to think, and maybe it's just because I'm a positive thinking person, I would like to think that if a person has humility and they say, you know what,

When I hear that my, that, when I hear it being described that having concrete ideas probably means that my cognitive ability is a little lower, maybe I need to open my mind up a little bit. And maybe they can. I know that I saw leaders and I still see leaders. I know for a fact I see leaders get better, become better leaders and be able to look at complex things and start to understand that information doesn't need to be perfect. And even if I look at myself, when I first got to the SEAL teams and I was a new guy, I couldn't look at a complex problem immediately and go, oh, okay, you know what?

Oh, these two pieces of information are kind of different, but I can make a sound decision that will make sense right now and we can make some adaptations later. Got it. No, I would have been looking for, hey, what's the, is this right or is that right? I don't know which one. Okay, I've got to move forward with it. So I think that that idea that you can improve it is a positive thing, even though, I don't know. Does that mean it's trainable?

What happens is I'm growing and I cross a threshold and I don't realize it. I don't realize that I have more ability all of a sudden because it's like a stair step. It jumps up. It goes along. It jumps up. And when it makes that jump, I might not realize it initially. and so I might need a coach. I might need you to come in and work with me

to help me start to use this increased ability that I have because I don't realize how to do it. So, you know, we work with leaders a lot helping them be able to take advantage of the abilities that they have because a lot of times they don't know it. They don't know they can handle more ambiguity. They can think further into the future

because in their journey, job, they're not allowed to. You're in a role level where they keep pulling you back down to here, even though you have a lot more ability. So one of the things that we're looking at with people in an organization is, are you working at your potential? Do you have unused potential? That if we could help you to start to use it, you raise the whole bar for the organization,

performance level for the organization goes up, you know, because now you're operating closer to your full potential than you were before. We were doing immediate action drills. I was task unit commander, the platoon commander. My two platoon commanders were Seth and Leif. Leif wrote the books of me. Seth was the other platoon commander, the Delta platoon commander. And you know the deal with immediate action drills.

There's a standard operating procedure. There's a place where you're going to go on a peel left, on a peel right, on a center peel, on a flank right, on a flank left. I thought, there's positions for you to go into. And so I was watching him in his platoon, and basically the call would get made, whether it was him or whether it was the leading petty officer or whoever, someone would make a call. And I'd watch him, and he would stay like in the precise position that the standard operating procedure dictates him to be in. And so, which meant that if he ran down a ravine and was facing the six-foot wall of a ravine and couldn't see.

anything he was going to stand there because that's where you're supposed to be and I say hey man what can you see right now you know it's like well nothing well why don't you move a little bit well because that's not the standard operating procedure well guess what you're the platoon commander it's okay you can have someone fill in here right and you can go and you can crawl up this little this little part of the ravine and you can actually see maybe an out where you can direct your guys so you can get out of this cone of fire how does that sound? So that becoming aware that you're allowed to move, that you're allowed to think, that you're allowed to take action reminds me of what you just said about a leader of being

able to step up, suddenly realizing that, like a stair step up. As soon as he realized that, he's like, oh, oh, I can move around. And yes, as a leader, yes, you can. Talk about emotional Intelligence, emotional intelligence focuses on the interpersonal and emotional aspects of innate ability. It can be defined as a person's innate ability to perceive and manage his own perceptions in a manner that results in successful interactions with the environment and if others are present to perceive and manage their emotions in a manner that result in successful interpersonal reactions.

Emotional intelligence. Being able to read people. You talk about the innate ability to do this, but can you learn it? To some degree. Okay, good. I'm glad you said that because I've talked to people and help people. Yeah. Like, let me give you a big hint on emotional intelligence to anyone that's listening.

If you want to get better at it, here's a good step to take. Be quiet and listen to what people are saying. You know, when you actually shut your mouth and listen, people will be, And you truly listen to what they're saying. You can hear what their tone sounds like and pay attention to it. You can watch their facial expressions and pay attention to it. You can watch their body language and pay attention to it. When you're not listening, when you're on transmit instead of receive,

you're not going to perceive as much about their emotional state at that time, which means you're going to react badly to it. So instead of being on transmit mode, for those of you that don't know what I'm talking about when you're on a radio as a radio man, when you're pressing the push to talk button, you're transmitting information. Don't be on transmit, be on receive. That's my advice.

That'll improve your emotional intelligence in the next five minutes. Motivation. Motivation is a combination of work aspiration. The role level the leader aspires to reach. Motivators, what drives the leader to be fully engaged at work, demotivators, What caused the leader to lose interest in work and drive for results the leaders need to achieve?

In general, motivation is highly associated with job performance and promotability. I think Jordan Peterson calls this conscientiousness. Like, are you going to do your job? Personality, a leader's personality tends to be hardwired so that most of his core preferences for interacting with people, gathering information, decision-making, and general orientation to life change little over the course of his life. You kind of get what you get. Yeah.

How often do you see people's personalities change? Not much. We're asked all the time, you got to fix, Echo Charles. You got to fix him. And we tell him, you know, we can work with him. We can smooth with all some of the edges. Yeah. But he's still going to be Echo Childson when the dust settles.

Because that's who he is. That's a sad fact that I've been dealing with for quite some time. Here's what I have seen. I have seen people change personality from some kind of event that takes place in their life, like usually a traumatic event. Something happens, bad, good, chance, luck, and they end up, it's not going to drastically change their personality. because over time people will be

the gravity of their personality will draw them back to who they are but occasionally the times that I've seen personalities change the most is something happens and that changes their personality but it's hard it's hard to truly change someone

you know that story about the what is it the frog and the scorpion and the frog says I'll take you over the scorpion says can you take me over and he says no if I take you over the river you'll sting me and I'll die and he says no why would I do that we both die and they go across and of course the scorpion stings is why'd you do that because I'm a scorpion what'd you think I was gonna do so the fundamental core of leadership is decision-making

everything a leader does or does not do is the result of decisions everyday leaders are called upon to make decisions routine and non-routine and then you say problem solving is just a series of decisions good point you have these steps The seven step problem solving model. One, identify the problem. Two, gather the information. Three, redefine the problem. Four, generate alternatives.

Courses of action. Five, evaluate alternatives. Six, select and implement the solution. Seven, evaluate the results. And then back to one again. So that's what we're doing all the time. And you talk about the Oudaloupe in here, which we've talked about bunch on this podcast.

And then you talk about the other, the loop that, what is it, the PAMA loop. What's that loop? That's where you're perceiving information. Which is, so this one reminded me of the Uda loop, right? They're very similar. To some degree, yeah. Okay. So you perceive information.

It comes into your system. You appraise it, you know, make sense side of it. Which is like Orient, right? So observe Orient. So those two are pretty close, right? Perceive and observe. would be the P and the O. And then you get to A, which is, what is it in the PAMA?

What does it stand for? Assess? A praise. A praise. And that's very similar to Orient. Okay. Then what's the M? Yeah.

Then we get into the motivational part. And then we get to get into the action. And then we're back in the loop again. Yeah. And even the last one is action in the PAM loop. and in the Oudaloupe, it's act. So you go through, you know, kind of dissecting what these two

the differences are, the similarities, and that's definitely an interesting thing because, again, see, for me, I always have this, I guess, positive outlook on things that if you know something, you can at least try and apply it, right? So people do the Oudal Loop,

people do the PAMA loop, but they, don't know it. And so therefore, when they miss it or they do it, or they get caught in some meaningless cycle of it, if they don't know that that's what they're doing, they can't even correct it. But if you're aware, oh, you know what, I'm not acting. That's why I'm sitting here. I'm not acting. So I need to take action. So I think being aware of things, just like being aware of low cognitive ability, if you're aware of it, even if you're aware of it, hopefully you can make some adjustments in your life to get it moving in the right direction. You talk about

rational strategies, which is logical, sequential, analytical, conscious, well-thought-out process that takes time and typically involves others. So this is, hey, we're going to come up with a rational decision for our problem. And the other one is intuitive, which is intuitive decisions are made quickly, automatically, emotionally, mostly unconsciously, and this is the type of decision usually made in routine or emergency situations. So these, again, these are two,

if you understand these two things, that you can make a rational decision or you can make an intuitive decision and understand what the shortfalls of each are because you can make too rational of a decision, right? You can analyze things to death or you can just look at the numbers and you just make that kind of decision,

it can be wrong, or you can make an intuitive decision, which can also be wrong. And it can be right. So what are the shortness? And this is, again, stuff that you cover in depth in this book, which is a very interesting book,

and I believe will raise people's awareness and make them more capable of making decisions. And by the way, right now, this is page 35 in the book. The book is actually called The Stress Effect, how, why smart leaders make dumb decisions and what to do about it. So all you've done up into this point is explaining what types of leaders there are, what types of decisions are being made.

So that way you can then explain what stress is and what stress does to your decision-making process, many of the things of which we've already talked about. Yeah. Stress destroys your decision-making process. As the stress level goes up, your cognitive ability goes down, your emotional intelligence goes down, the quality of your decision-making goes down. So managing stress is really key. If you're in a combat situation, you're going to make a lot of intuitive decisions.

When I get on my feet and I look and I see there are two NVA standing there and they look at me and they turn their weapons. I'm not going to say, okay, let me see here now. What do I think the problem is? Are those in VA? What's going to happen? I don't work through that big problem-solving process. I see it. I see the answer.

I pull the trigger. And I've got to do it. And you better. Yeah, that's absolutely the right answer. But when I ask somebody, and I do this all the time, somebody will talk about a decision like that, and when I say, how did you make that decision? They immediately launch into that problem-solving model.

And I said, you did it in less than two seconds. You didn't have time to do all of those things. What you're doing is you're using the solution that's setting on the top of what I call a dominant response hierarchy. You have trained and trained and trained to produce a certain response. When you see them, squeeze the trigger as you go. going down. That's setting up there and that's what you're going to execute. If you want to execute a different plan, you're going to have to train in something else up there because it's going to

come so fast. And that's how you survive in a life and death situation. You've got to make a decision and you've got to do it very quickly. And if you have time, you've got a week or so to make a decision, you can bring your team in, you can work through that problem-solving model, and you're you know, come up with a good decision. If you've got two seconds, you can't do that. You got an intuitive because it's so much faster, but it's going to grab whatever setting at the top. So you better be training for the right response.

And that's where the training comes in over and over and over, and that's automatic. When you watch pro athletes, they train all the time. And they train for particular responses. and that's why they can do it so fast. If you like to play golf and you play golf with someone,

if you want to give yourself an advantage, and the guy you're playing with is a really good putter. So you get on the green and you say, Jaco, I have always

been impressed with your ability to make those long putts. I mean, we're friends. Help me out here. tell me what you think about I mean when you're getting ready to put, talk me through the steps that you go through

to make that put, he's going to blow it because now he's thinking rather than executing. You know, pros, execute. It's automatic. They don't have to think about it. You make them think about it, they'll blow it. When singers are singing a national anthem or something,

if they make the mistake of thinking about where's coming next in the lyrics, they're going to blow it. Yeah. It's got to be automatic. Well, we train a lot of Jiu-Jitsu, and I talk about Jiu-Jitsu with the laws of combat and leadership in life and how it all is intertwined. And a guy said to me, hey, how does decentralized command fit into Jiu-Jitsu?

I don't see where the, I see where prioritizing execute is, I see where simple is, I see where cover and move is, I see where those are in J-Jitsu, but where's decentralized command? And I said, here's exactly where it is. You need to train enough that your body parts know to execute without being told what to do. So when it comes time to defend your arm, you need to move that arm. You don't have time to think about it. Just like you don't have time to tell the platoon commander or the squad leader, hey, take and put down cover fire as we move to the flank.

No, they've got to have the instinct to make that happen without you needing to tell them. So that's where decentralized command comes in to your jiu-jitsu game. You talk about this recognition prime decision model or RPD. And just hitting a couple things here. Here's what you do. Assess the situation. Evaluate a course of action. Select an option.

Develop a solution set. Generate and evaluate options. Adjust the option. Take action. And again, these are very similar ideas. but there's little nuances that you spell out pretty that you spell out inside the book here's one the technique of sufficing allows a solution to be chosen that is not perfect but is sufficient to provide a satisfactory solution to the problem the RPD model chooses

the first solution that might work a sufficing approach in most cases trying to choose a solution using a maximizing, which is optimal or perfect approach, tends to be unrealistic and inefficient because the leader is making decisions in an environment where all the information about the problem and possible solutions are unknown. So this is a great thing that I think I have always used. Sufficing. Like, yeah, that's a solution. It's going to be good enough. We need to go with it. You talk about cognitive intelligence. And now this is a little bit different. Cognitive Intelligence. A very general mental capability that among other things involves the ability to reason,

plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly, and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings. And then there's these terms, catching on, making sense of things, or figuring out what to do. So this is a different type of intelligence, which obviously is very important. That definition is an excellent starting point for thinking about leadership and decision-making, especially the last point about a figuring out. Cognitive intelligence doesn't begin and end with having some smarts.

An individual must know what to do with his or her cognitive intelligence. And this is once again, you get these smart young officers that, and at a certain point in the SEAL teams, I mean, we were getting these incredibly qualified on paper individuals that were, you know, they should be the smartest people in the world. But you'd see them have problems. Not all of them, of them, of course, some of them were great. You know, some of the guys went to Harvard and Yale and everywhere else,

and they were fantastic. But some of them, it wasn't all like that. It wasn't across the board. And that's exactly what you're talking about here. You got to be smart, but you've got to know what to do with those smarts. Just some of the things that the cognitive intelligence, some of the abilities that includes fluid reasoning, crystallized intelligence, visual processing, auditory processing,

processing, processing speed. Short-term memory, long-term retrieval, quantitative knowledge, correct decision speed. Again, these are, as you think about these things, and if you're a humble person, you'll think to yourself, you know what? I need to learn to, I don't process things very well. What should I do to counter that?

Maybe I should prepare more. Maybe I should study more. My auditory processing, hey, how well do I actually listen? What can I do to improve my listening skills? If you don't admit that you don't listen, well, you're not going to get any better at it. Cognitive intelligence moderating factors when all things aren't anything. So here's some things that you talk about when it comes to cognitive intelligence, the factors that come into play.

One of them is environment. And you've got a very interesting study. You've got all kinds of studies in here. But one of them was like they looked at groups of kids that they gave better opportunities for, two. You know, like low-income kids, they gave really good opportunities to some and didn't give them to the other ones. And it actually didn't have that much of an effect, which surprised me. Like there was a little bump in the beginning, but then it just leveled out. Most of those studies are short-term studies.

So they create those environments. You know, a few months later, they test and they say, wow. Templeate. This group really improved. but then they don't come back two years later, three years later when you find those studies everybody's back

to the same as they get older by the time kids are 15 most of the stuff this enriched environment kind of work that you do with them when they're young everybody's back to the same I mean but they've all matured back

to the same place so you you can't just look at what happens the first few months but nobody wants to do that. They want to play this their study and we want to move on. Hey, I got great results. They work. They want to sell you the Einstein music for your kids, baby Einstein or whatever it's called.

Baby Einstein. Little Einstein. Little Einstein. Yeah. You talk about age. Here's some things if you want to help preserve cognitive intelligence. Cardiovascular. Here's some things that specific factors that seem to help preserve.

cognitive intelligence as people age. The absence of cardiovascular and other chronic diseases, a favorable environment, above average education, occupational pursuits involving high complexity and low routine, above average income, and the maintenance of intact families, a complex and intellectually stimulating environment, a flexible personality style at midlife, being married to a spouse with high cognitive intelligence, maintenance of high levels of perceptual processing speed, being satisfied with life's accomplishments. Important things. And some of those things are hard for you to do.

I mean, they happen. The most important thing that you can do to maintain your cognitive ability, your intellectual ability is aerobic exercise. Nothing has been proven long term to have a greater impact on how your brain's operating, particularly delay in the onset of dementia or Alzheimer's, nothing does better than aerobic exercise,

where you're pumping the blood, you're pumping the food into your brain, you're cleaning your brain out, aerobic exercise is all that will do it for you. Good information. Talk about memory, yeah, and then you talk about physical conditioning, which I'm a big supporter of. Nutrition, obviously, if you're not eating clean, sleep, getting good sleep. There's one of my weaknesses.

I don't sleep very much. Cognitive intelligence can be a double-edged sword. A leader with high cognitive intelligence can possess, can process information rapidly, solve complex problems quickly, and make effective decisions. He might also be perceived by his team as arrogant, condescending, and impatient. the leader knows he can do the work better and faster than his team members and may forget sometimes that they don't have his ability. This is one of those where I'm worried about saying that one because what this does is it makes someone say, well, you know, people think I'm arrogant because I'm so smart because I have high cognitive ability. That's everyone else's problem.

But as I've said to many smart people over the years, if you're so smart, why aren't you winning? Yeah, I mean, we see it all the time. That double-edged sword, you come across as a jerk, you come across as arrogant, and you're condescending toward people. What's taking you so long? I mean, this is simple. Well, for you it might be, but for the average person it's not. And when you start putting that kind of feedback out, you're just taking too long.

I don't understand what's wrong with you. You're just killing their motivation and causing them to see you more as a jerk. Yep. That's going to hurt your leadership, capital. Talking a little bit about emotion here, all human decisions have some emotional component. That's the way the brain is wired as you're about to see. The more a leader understands the emotional component of decision making, the more effective her decisions can become. Emotions happen.

Emotions are neural impulses that happen inside the brain. brain and trigger a motivation to reach a goal. Emotions are goal oriented. Whenever you try, whenever you experience emotion, there is an end goal that the emotion is trying to move you toward. Emotions have their beginning in the unconscious and most of them stay there. When an emotion becomes conscious, we have a feeling. For example, when the emotion of fear becomes conscious, I feel scared. Emotions can be viewed as providing situational reports about what is happening in the body. Why am I shaking? I feel scared.

Emotions have survival value. David Caruso and Peter Salaveh, researchers and educators provide the following linkages between emotions and survival. Fear from a survival standpoint is, let's get out of here. Sadness is, help me. Disgust is, don't eat that. Anger is about fighting. When you get angry, your anger raises your energy level. to overcome an obstacle in your path.

There you go. You've got to recognize what's going on with these emotions. Emotional intelligence has always been present and identified, but not valued as intelligence. 1995, Daniel Goldman brought emotional intelligence to the world's consciousness with the publication of his best-selling book, Emotional Intelligence, Why It Can Matter More Than IQ. His books quickly spawned a proliferation of articles, books, workshops,

training materials, assessments, and conferences on emotional intelligence, a cottage industry spraying up almost overnight. The term emotional intelligence is used to describe a non-cognitive type of intelligence. I define it as a person's innate ability to perceive and manage her own emotions in a manner that results in successful interactions with the environment and, if others are present, to also perceive and manage their emotions in a manner that results in successful interpersonal interactions. Note that this definition does not require interaction with another person. Emotional intelligence involves managing and controlling the awareness and appraising of emotions

and the resulting motivation and action in a manner that produces successful outcomes, whether in the presence or absence of others. As a leader, I need to understand my emotions and how they impact me and what it causes me to do or how I can use it. I need to understand yours so that if I want you to proof a document for me, if I make you really happy and then say, proof this, you'll miss most of the typos. If I make you irritated, you'll find them all. You'll rip it apart.

If there's something in there, you'll find it. So understanding the impact that the emotions are having on you and your performance and which way it drives you, you know, that's using emotional intelligence to, be successful to help you be successful. Same on the battlefield. I need to understand the emotions that you're probably going to experience and what are they going to do to you? How do you need to adapt them?

How do you need to redirect them? Understanding that fear takes away your fine motor skills and I need to train you to be able to operate without those fine motor skills to be able to use the gross motor skills and still perform just as well. You just have to perform the task a little differently. So shoot without aiming.

You learn the quick kill attack heat. You talk about hijackers of emotional intelligence. When the hijacking occurs, it sets up an opportunity for your evil twin, Skippy, to come forward. Skippy is the bad side of you who says and does things that are uncharacteristic of you. It was not Mike Tyson,

bit off a piece of Evander Hallofield's ear during a championship fight in 1997. It was Tyson's evil twin Skippy. So then you just go on to describe the fact that you've got to keep your emotions in check. And something we all need to look out for, especially Mike Tyson. Stress interferes with decision making. And again, now, you know, I've already talked about a bunch of stuff and now we're sort of getting into some of the book. More control equals less stress. I really like this part.

Data collected over the years on stress levels within the baboon population reveal that the higher a baboon is in the hierarchy, the less stress he experiences. These results suggest that the amount of control you have over your situation influences the amount of stress you experience. Just to give you an example. in the old days with a SOG team you got on the helicopter you flew out to do your insertion you found out what was going on at the LZ when you got there and one day I asked

the crew chief I said you've got an extra headset up here can I wear that headset and he said sure so when I put the headset on all of a sudden I'm listening to Cubby talk I'm listening to our gunships talk. I'm listening about what's going on at the LZ. Are they prepping it? Are they seeing anything? Did they receive any aircraft fire on the way out there?

If the LZ is hot, I know it. I know which side is hot, and I may have a plan that we're going to exit the aircraft and go east. I really need to go west. All of a sudden, I've got all this information that I can use to make decisions, and I could just literally feel my stress level coming down. Okay. I understand. I understand. saying what's going on now. I don't have to figure it out in two seconds when I get there and I'm being shot at. Now I've got a plan. So given myself control, I don't know why we didn't do that right from the beginning. But I know for me, once I could get access to that information, it just made all the difference in the world. Yeah. There was a study and I'm trying to remember it all. It was something about like, I think, I don't know if they use cats or people or what, but it was like

they'd get a shock. No, this is the rats. I talked about this at the monster. Okay, yeah, yeah. Like, so they'd shock them with a, like, a certain strength, right, of shock? No, so this is the deal. There's a cage with two sides to the cage. Each of the floors in the cage deliver a shock.

One of them has a stronger shock, but there's a light that comes on before the shock goes off. And so they're able to like expect it. Yeah, they know when it's coming. The other side, less of a shock, but it's just completely random. And there's a pathway to get between the two areas, but you can't, like, hang out there. So the rats basically have to decide which side they want to be on. The stronger shock that they are prepared for or the random shock that's less. And the rats always pick the side that has the warning.

So they know what's going on. Even though it's worse. Yeah, even though it's worse. I just talked about this. I was talking to some army troops out in Hawaii, as a matter of fact, and talking about, you know, you mentioned earlier that the thing that you can take away from troops that they care about, money more than money and rank, is freedom. Contrary to that, or I guess the other side of that is the best thing you can reward someone with

is more freedom in the form of, and one way you can do it at work, because you can only give someone so much free time, but you say, give them control over the exercise, give them control over the training, give them control over what time they get done, give them control over where they go. The more control people have, the more satisfied they are,

the better they're going to perform. And so that way you can use that, you can take control away from them, and that's the worst punishment you can give them. The best reward you can give somebody is give them freedom, give them control over their fate. I think that's the most powerful driver.

I think that even drives people generally more than money. So I talk about that with companies that they, you know, wait, we can't afford to pay anyone. It's the same, we can't afford to pay our employees more than X or we'll go bankrupt or in the military. I can't go and, you know, I can't pay my corporals more. It doesn't work that way.

What do you do? How do you reward them? You give them freedom. You give them control over their destiny. That will drive people. And it's the best thing you can use. But that stress element. Like it's almost it even in Jiu-Jitsu you have that if you compete in Jiu-Jitsu if you don't know like when you're going to go on

You know because it's like on so it's gone right now but then they're not calling your name and you're like you get all stress But then if you know oh it's your time then you're like less stress it's almost like if you're in the dark about something You're just more stress so the more information you have about it so that's why like people when they're worried they're like asking all these questions like how's it going to go? They just want to know how it's going to go you know So yeah that makes sense I feel that check out this dichotomy a lot of people think dichotomy my favorite word but it is check out this dichotomy as the number of choices increases the autonomy control and liberation this variety brings us is powerful and positive but if the number of choices keeps growing negative effects start to appear as choices grow further the negatives

escalate until we become overloaded at this point choice no longer liberates us it might even be said to tyrannize so that's why discipline We'll give you freedom and that's why giving someone you know if you have too many options It can turn out to be a bad thing There's a definite dichotomy there here's another again. I'm jumping around a bit A key point to remember is that all models whether mental physical mathematical or iconic have blind spots When you choose a model you choose your blind spots That's powerful so whatever you're thinking

You're not necessarily you're not going to be 100% right. There's going to be things that you don't see that you don't understand that you miss. And what's critical is understand the models, understand the one that you choose. And so what are the blind spots that I've just chosen? What am I not going to see by using this?

And whenever you can, if you can use multiple lenses, and we do that a lot when we're assessing people. I don't want just this one assessment instrument because it's got all kind of blind spots. So I pick another one that's going to close some of those blind spots because it covers those. And, you know, so I get a better picture of what you look like by using multiple lenses to look at you with.

So I don't have just one. I give you this one test. I don't, I miss all this stuff over here. And by the way, if you don't have a high cognitive ability, when you see these two reports about someone that might have contrasting information, you won't be able to, oh, this report doesn't make any sense. and you'll lean towards the one that makes the most sense to you, that fills the vision that you've been looking for.

Here's the thing that I just had to read. When catastrophic leadership failures occur, it is sudden and causes a catastrophic change in the leader's ability to perform successfully. The leader will exhibit some or all of a characteristic set of behaviors. And here's those behaviors. And this is, to me, these are like red flags. These are things that if you're paying attention right now and you're listening and you want to improve your leadership capabilities

Pay attention to these things and when you notice yourself doing them Check yourself detach take a step back and and correct your your your trajectory because your trajectory is not good Number one Not listening that's number one not listening Over analyzing failure to make decisions low quality decisions emotional decisions Flip-flop short-term decisions and focus, reactive decisions, defensiveness, rationalizing, self-satisfying, hedonism, denial, inattentional blindness, fear-based decisions, anger-facilitated decisions,

automatic decision-making, and mental paralysis. So there's a list of things that you can identify about yourself when there's a stressful situation going on and you start making a rational decision or you start making an emotional decision or you not listen to anybody else anymore, time to take a step back, detach and get yourself, get your mind right because it's not right to make decisions at that point. These are similar list of behaviors that will get you thinking about how you behave in stressful situations. Aggression.

Loss of humor. taking offense. Isn't that a great one? We take offense, right? And that's a sign that says, oh, you're stressed out and you're not about to make a good decision. And in my opinion, when you're taking a fence, that's rooted to something that we call ego. It's going to be something that's brushing up against your ego. Here's another one, wanting to be right. Oh, that's also ego. Wanting the last word, that's also ego. Floodding. Flooding. with information to prove a point. That's ego.

Holding a grudge, that's ego. I know that. That's ego. Jealousy, that's ego. Playing poor me, sarcasm, blaming. Being too nice. That's an interesting one. Being too nice, you're just going to, okay, yeah, I'll do it.

It's like, oh, you just broke. So there's a dichotomy, right? One of them is, one of us, we're getting aggressive. So the other one is I'm just cowering down. There's a little dichotomy there. If you're doing well, you'll be balanced. Here's ECHO's favorite. It's my personality.

It's just the way I am. Don't lecture me. These are all just classic, just classic things that you do that should be signs that you're not doing well. Chronic stress is a constant drain the leader's overall capacity accidentally leaving the car light on begins to drain the car battery here you do a great job of you know talking about the comfort zone and we don't want to be in the comfort zone all the time we want to be pushing out of it a little bit that that forces us to

to step up our game but if we spend too much time up there out of the comfort zone we'll get burned out because we're having to be undergoing all the stress all the time the other one I already talked about it's rust out and that's when you're you're just you're doing something that's too easy it's not challenging you're you're so deep in your comfort zone it's so easy for you that you don't care about it anymore the further the leader moves into the burnout zone the faster he will burn out his performance job satisfaction interpersonal relationships motivation and health will begin to deteriorate dropping below the comfort zone takes the leader to into the rustout zone there the leader will experience boredom loss of motivation and lowered sense of purpose

So those are important things to look for with your troops. You see someone that's bored, not motivated. Cool, put them in a leadership position, let them step up. Stress is not just a nuisance designed to frustrate humans and shorten their lives. And this is, again, I'm jumping through this book. Quite the opposite. The purpose of stress is to help people increase their odds of survival by providing quicker response time, more alertness, and ability to focus more narrowly on the environment.

The trick is to keep stress as an ally, not an enemy. So stress is not bad. It's not necessarily bad all the time. It will make you better with as long as you get breaks from it. Yeah. And you can adapt to stress. So it's like, you know, if you lift weights and you're going to do curls. And you get so.

Echo approves of this example. So you can get so you're using 35 pounds and you're doing 10 reps. and if you just keep doing 10 reps for 35 pounds every day, you don't get better. What you have to do is stress yourself. So you have to increase the weight. You can increase the reps, adapt to it, then you increase again,

and what your body is doing is adapting to that stress a little at a time. So you keep it within a row. range that it can adapt to and you'll keep getting stronger and stronger same with running you don't go out and run 26 miles the first day you kind of build up to it you're you know so you're stressing the body as you run longer distances or if you run hills or you're running sprints you do a series of things that stress you to help you get so you can go farther and you can go faster and eventually you can do the 26 miles but if you just you run three miles every day it's the same pace

You've got a max out right there. And the 26th, it would just eat your lunch when you try it. You know, this is when I was talking about me being, you know, having a positive attitude earlier, being an optimist. And I was thinking about this quote because I knew I was going to get to it. When Collins asked Stockdale, this is Admiral Stockdale, who's a POW, when Collins asked Stockdale which POWs didn't make it out, Stockdale responded, that's easy. The optimists. The optimists were the prisoners who believed and would say that the North Vietnamese were going to release the POWs by Christmas.

When it didn't happen by Christmas, they would say it would happen by Easter. Then Thanksgiving. Eventually, the optimist would die of a broken heart. The solution, according to Stockdale, is that you must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end, which you can never afford to lose with the discipline to confirm. the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they may be. That's important right there. Yeah.

We say in the 1980s, I worked at the Center for Army Leadership at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, a subject matter expert on leadership and stress on the battlefield. Research indicated that people high in psychological hardiness differed from people with low psychological hardness in four primary ways. a stronger commitment to self, an attitude of vigorousness toward the environment, a sense of meaningfulness, and an internal sense of control. Continued research narrowed these differences to three factors. Commitment, the ability to feel deeply involved in life's activities. Control the belief that you can control or influence stressful events in your life and challenge

the anticipation of change as an exciting challenge. for further development. Yeah, those are key. That challenge thing, instead of looking at everything like, oh, no, this is happening to me, and instead saying, oh, this is an opportunity for us. I had some client asked me the other day, well, what would you do if your team got assigned

like the hardest job and how are you gonna break the news to him? You know, and I said, oh, we gotta sign the hardest job. I'm going to walk in there and be like, hey, guys, guess what? This company knows that there's only one team that can get this done. And they're saying it's going to take three months to get it done. And guess what? We're going to get it done in two months. And it's going to take everything we've got, but we are going to crush this thing.

And we're going to show not only we're the only team that can do this. We're the only team that can do absolutely anything. And everyone's like, oh, yeah, because that's the attitude. Dude, you got to have. This isn't a challenge that we're going to shy away from. This is an opportunity for us to get after it. Most people who study resilience agree on a core set of common factors. Flexibility, adaptability, meaning, value, determination, strength, and recovery.

So talking about resilience, those are some things to think about. That flexibility one isn't one that you might think of. It's a little counterintuitive to think, well, I'm resilient, so I do. just keep going the same direction. It's like, no, actually I'm flexible and I'm going to adapt. Got to adapt. As opposed to burning yourself out, beating your head against the wall. You talk about this, this acronym you use here, stress, resilient, emotional intelligence, the ability to resist the negative influence of stress on the emotional aspects of decision making by flexing and

adapting to sudden change. As the stress level goes up, particularly toward the extreme level, people lose their access to emotional intelligence. If you can't take a step back and take a breath and get control of your emotions, you're going to have problems. There's no doubt about that. You have to learn how to breathe. Breathing is a big deal, tactical breathing, or you inhale for four seconds, you pause and you exhale four seconds. very quickly that will help calm you down, slows your heart right back down. We used it with sniper training.

You know, when you're reaching out those distances like they do today, you know, with a 50 caliber, you know, I mean, you can reach out and touch somebody two miles away. But the pressure of the pulse in your finger is enough to change the trajectory to cause you to miss it. So slowing your heart right down, causing it. causing it be a little weaker, being very controlled, and squeezing it off. And, you know, the Canadian guy, I don't remember his name right now, I think he has the record of a kill at like 2.2 miles. That's a crazy shot right there. That's a long way.

But, you know, there are ways to do that. Yeah, I always talk about the fact that it was always our goal to never sound excited on the radio. And in order to do that, you're going to have to get control your breath. When you get control your breath and you can control your voice, that just calmed you down. Instead of, hey, we did help over here. Just, hey, we're going to need two more guys down this hallway, please. That's a way to stay calm. You get in here to the seven best practices to prevent stress.

And it said a leader can get caught in an ever-accelerating downward spiral. and it starts with rising levels of stress. At first, the leader might think, I can power through this. I'm tough. That's how I got to where I am. But as his stress levels begin to rise, he finds it more and more difficult to maintain the lifestyle that helps keep stress manageable.

The diet quickly turns unhealthy. There's no time or energy for exercise. No time for sleep or rest. No time for family or friends. His attitude turns negative and learning halts. A reinforcing loop emerges that. that sends the leader into a downward spiral like an airplane has lost power

and is out of the pilot's control with little hope of recovery unless the leader can break the cycle and begin to climb again. And this is your something that you call Arsenal, which another acronym, the seven best practices, awareness, rest, support, exercise, nutrition, attitude, and learning. And, you know, you know, you,

You go through each one of these and talk about how, you know, some steps to take for awareness. Dedicate time to stepping outside yourself, observing your actions, for rest. You know, you give great little sections of what to do to rest. Force yourself to take breaks. Include personal time each day. Like you go through support. What does support mean? Support is psychological, emotional, and physical people that help you.

in those categories. So significant other family, friends, colleagues, coaches, mentors, et cetera. And what can you do? Identify these people. And you get, again, you do that for each one of these. For exercise, you talk about what, you know, how do you start an exercise program? And I think you use a couple. You give one thing is 60 days, go 60 days.

Do not miss an exercise session during the first 60 days, not even one. While some say new habits are created in. 21 days, I find that for most people 60 days tends to firmly transform any new behavior into a habit. And you obviously are a little bit of an exercise fanatic because you still run an Ironman? Yes. How did you get into that? Well, you know, I've always been physical.

And about 10 years or so ago, I had my other son-in-law go do a triathlon. and he got with Eric and I and he said, we got to do this. This was a lot of fun. So wait, how old are you right now? 72. So at 62, you decided it was a good time to start triathlons.

Yeah. Got it. Okay. So then, you know, got into that and then, you know, triathlons are okay, but I thought, you know,

Iron Man, the distances are considerably, you know, father, so I got into that. And, you know, it's pretty cool. I mean, it's a tough day. Yeah, and especially at 62. When's the last time you did one?

A year ago? Less than a year. I mean, this year. Okay. One this year, you know, may I start back again. Are you, like, ranked in the world? I was until, I think, last year. You have to do a certain number of year.

And then you can. can total up points and they rank you. So, you know, I think my last ranking was fifth in the U.S., 15th in the world in my age group. So you definitely recommend exercise, apparently. You talk about nutrition, you know, eating the right stuff. This is all stuff that we know, but we don't want to do. You talk about attitude, engage in. Activities that builds your self-confidence and self-esteem,

Jiu-Jitsu, smile, see the glasses being half full. Talk directly to the person you are unhappy with, not to your coworkers about that person. Become a team player. Ask fellow team members what you can do to help them. That's a good attitude adjustment. And then the last one you've got is lifelong learning. And again, I'm breezing through these things right now,

and that's why people need to buy the book so that they can get the menus themselves and read through. Lifelong learning, this is just such an important thing. Set daily, monthly, quarterly, and annual learning goals. For example, read two books monthly or improve a foreign language skill over the course of a year. Spend time with others who like to learn. Spend time with someone you consider intelligent. Get out of your comfort zone.

Learn something you have always wanted to learn, but keep putting off. Exercise all parts of your brain by choosing a variety of learning goals. So those are that's your that's your arsenal approach to controlling stress awareness, rest, support, exercise, nutrition, attitude, and learning. Here's the takeaway on arsenal. These are cool. An unaware brain is a surprised brain. A tired brain is a grumpy brain.

An unsupported brain is a sad brain. An unfit brain is a slow brain. A hungry brain. is a distracted brain. A negative brain is an angry brain, and an unused brain is a forgetful brain. Anything I'm missing on Arsenal? No, that's good.

I mean, we have an actual assessment that you can take online, shows you where you are. So, I mean, we use it quite a bit with our clients. Stress is always an issue out there, so if we can help them find a way to bring the stress down, they'll perform better. Particularly as a leader. I'm going to wrap up with this book here.

Training leaders is similar to training parachutists. You have to train them to jump before pushing them out the door. And then you say this, closing out this book, in preparing for the future, we should keep in mind the old Native American analogy that describes the past, present, and future as a log burning in a fire. The part of the log that has burned into ash is yesterday.

The part that is burning is today. and the part that will burn soon is tomorrow. We are the fire. We can only live today and what we do today determines whether our fire will still be burning tomorrow. Well, that wraps up this book. And again, I mean, I breezed through this thing. There were some points that I definitely wanted to talk about

and let people know about the book is called The Stress Effect by Henry L. Thompson. And it's available on Amazon. What else you know we've covered a ton you know we've we merged a bunch of podcasts here What else do we need to know about what you've got going on? What about high-performance systems? HPSYS dot com? That's your company I see and this is what you do. Yeah, that's what we do we work with leaders around the world We do a lot of work helping them improve their performance. We look at their cognitive ability.

We can measure that. Then we can work with you to make sure you're getting the most out of it. We work with manufacturing and building those high-performance work teams. So a while ago when you were talking about giving people control, if you take a high-performance work team in a manufacturing plant and say, okay, you guys can start making decisions. So you can even decide that Eric Charles gets tomorrow off because he's got something he has to do,

and Eric's going to come in and work his shift so he can go do it. And you don't have to come to me, the supervisor, to ask permission to do that. You guys are already authorized to do all kinds of things like that. If it's going to make the team perform better, you guys do it. So you run yourself. You take care of yourself. And I'm available.

if you need to ask me questions or maybe there's some resources you don't have, then let me know. I'll go find your resources for you. So we do a lot of work like that. We do a lot with stress management. We do a lot with decision-making under stress, so nuclear operators that are making decisions about whether or not the plant's going to melt down. Because sometimes the stress gets really high in the control room when they have an incident.

so teaching them how to get control of the stress and not lock up. Law enforcement, for the most part, I mean, law enforcement has a different approach to dealing with bad guys than the military does. I mean, a law enforcement SWAT team is a different approach when they go into a room. When they kick a door down and go in, it's not like having a special ops team, seal team come through that door. You know, when you go through, you're going to take out everything in there. You know, when the police SWAT team goes through, there's a bad guy in there they want. And they're not going to take out everybody that's in the room necessarily.

So it's a very different approach going in, but it's very stressful. And there's things that they can do and things they need to understand about what they can do when a stress level goes up, what it's going to do to their decision. So we work with them on that. We can train them. Firefighters, the same thing, EMTs. So we do a lot of work like that. We also work, you know, with vets, vet organizations.

So we have this thing going on, you know, 22 push-ups, because we have 22 vets a day committing suicide. So the 22 push-ups is an awareness thing. So we get that all over social media, people doing push-ups. You know, you had said something earlier about, you know, Echo Charles was probably going to knock out 22 for us to the video so we can post him out there tomorrow. So, and, you know, we had the challenge corns. And I have a group of people around the country that have some of our coins. And if they run into a vet that they think, you know, maybe on the edge, and they give him a corn.

It says, welcome home. Thank you for your service, all that kind of stuff. and they reach out to him. Sometimes all you have to do is smile at somebody. There's a person out there today that is on a mission to end their life before the days over. And very often they set up a condition. I'm going to ride the bus to this place

where I'm going to terminate myself. If nobody speaks to me, if nobody smiles at me, nobody recognizes my presence between now and the time I get to this place, I'm going to take my life. But if I get some kind of interaction from somebody, I won't do it. And they get on the bus.

They go. Nobody acknowledges them, you know, and they commit suicide. Just reaching out, just talking to someone, sometimes can turn them around, and all of a sudden they don't do it. You can take them off of that list of 22. So we do that. Is there a website to go for that? Is that like a nonprofit?

Yeah, there's a Mission 22 website. On our website, we put on our stress effect website, we put things you can do to recognize vets, not just vets, but firefighters, police, you know, there are other groups that are doing it, but particularly the vets, particularly, it's not just the older vets, but sometimes it's easier to see in them.

But if you watch, you can see people that are not acting quite right, and they may have on their hat. You can see they've been in Afghanistan or wherever they are, and you need to talk to them. And you had one person on one of your podcast very recently who is a suicide survivor. the person attempted the suicide and somebody, you know, snatched her up and got her out. And she'd doing all kinds of things that she wouldn't have done.

Yeah, no doubt about it. So everybody has a purpose. There's a reason that you survived as long as you have. And to go out and terminate yourself, I mean, all of a sudden, all those things don't happen. I mean, you might be the person that saves a lot of other lives. if you stick around. And I don't think we as a nation do very well, taking care of the vets, doing the transitions.

And I know a lot of the vets who do take their own lives, you know, they're not in the VA program. They're just trying to do things on their own. And, you know, they get in that downward spiral. But if we see one, we talk to them. It's amazing. some of the stories I'm getting back from some of the people that's kind of joined me in this program, women who are out walking or running, and they'll see a guy with his veteran hat on or something that clues them in,

and they just talk to them. And the guys just, they turn around. I mean, all of them don't, but, you know, as military people, I think, you know, we have an obligation. We have an accountability, you know, to take care of people. So anyway, we do a lot of things like that. Well, that's, I mean, that's awesome that you already, you served your country, you know, in so many other ways and continue to serve the vets. And I don't know, do you have any other final thoughts? I really appreciate the opportunity to come, you know, talk about some of the things that went on.

and Sogg and some of the leadership and other topics that we got on today. I appreciate you giving me that opportunity. You guys have been great, great questions. It's been a fun day. I have a question. What's a snake eater? You said that a few times. He's a snake eater.

Special forces. It's like a term. It's like a term for like a special forces guy. They'll say it about seals. They'll say like, oh, that guy's a snake eater. You're just kind of saying it in the context like it was. bad almost like from who was saying it in your stories the competition oh yes so i'm a ranger and your special forces yeah yeah got you so i'm i'm better than you on yeah yeah got so when i call

you a snake feeder it's bad yeah you know when i call myself one it's good yeah yeah cool right on right on thank you okay well uh you know thanks to eric for for getting you out here and i'm telling you i This is just a total honor for me to be able to sit here and hear your stories and pick your brain. And so thank you for coming on and sharing everything with us and, you know, more important. And I think it's pretty obvious. Thank you for your service. And thank you when I hear your stories and I think about the times that you thought you would not come back and you went anyway. And you did that for me and for my kids and for our country.

And I just wanted to say, thank you. And it's been an honor to talk to you. And I can't wait to hear feedback from people. And I'm sure they'll have so many questions that I'll have to drag you out here again at some point. I appreciate your service and thank you for that and all the things that you've done. And you're doing for the vets. I mean, people listen to these podcasts. I listen to what you guys say

and it makes a difference and you're you know you just you don't realize when you help most of the people that you help because you don't know where they were

when they listen to your podcast or listen to you talk but you're impacting people all over and you know I'm glad I could come in and you know just hang out with you guys and watch how you do this because you're really making an impact.

I appreciate it. The door is always open to this podcast room. The microphone will be waiting for you any time you want to come back. And I'm sure that the amount of people will hear what you've had to say and see what you've been through and you're going to help infinitely more people. And it's so appreciated, again, not just for what you've done in the past, but for what you're still doing now. So thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Eka. So once again, Dick Thompson. has left the building and once again I cannot even get my mind around what he's done and what he's learned and what he is passing on in these lessons because really there's no better way to learn and there's no better teacher than learning from those who have gone before us who have tested the limits of human capacity for performance and leadership and decision-making. And here we are.

We get to sit here. We get to actually sit here and absorb the knowledge of these great men who paid dearly for this knowledge. And as we know, many of their comrades paid with their very lives. So let us never forget that That for every lesson there was blood spilled for every story There is a man who did not return So value these lessons lessons that we can apply to our lives to our family To our businesses to our communities

Everything we do we can apply what we're learning here don't squander these lessons pay attention to them be aware we talk a lot about awareness be aware of your own shortfalls and then apply these lessons that's what you have to do you have to actually apply them you can't sit back and listen to them you got to actually apply them so echo we are all looking to learn we are all looking to somehow make up for our own shortfalls and apply things to our lives that will make us better. Do you know of anything, softball coming at you, do you know of anything that broadly speaking can make our lives better?

Yes, broadly and narrowly. Okay, that would be, Jiu Jitsu. Okay, by far. Okay, now, is it possible that you're just a person that's just into it and so you're biased because you like Jiu Jitsu and now, you think everyone could gain from it and benefit from it, even though that could be wrong. Is that a possibility? Yes.

That's a possibility. Well, actually, I was going to say that's actually not possible. Yeah. Well, I'm more saying yes to the biased part of it. Okay, you are biased, but even if you're biased, then that doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong. Correct. I would tell you this, you're biased, you're biased in favor of Jiu-Jitsu. And that doesn't affect the outcome of someone starting J-Jitsu and really gain.

a ton from it in making their life better. Yes. Correct. It's kind of like, you know how, like the sun. If I say, hey, the sun is warm on my face today. And I really like that. And I'm biased towards the sun. Okay.

When someone doesn't like that, it's still warmer in their face, seems to me. Okay. Let's say not only that they didn't, no, Brad, that was a perfect analogy. Yeah, actually, yeah, that's pretty bad. But nonetheless, short notice, That's sort of how it goes.

Hey, we'll take a week. Factually, factually, jiu-jitsu will improve your life. Yes. Factually. Unless you do it wrong. Here's the thing. Unless you do it wrong. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess that is possible. Yes. And I don't mean do jiu-jitsu wrong. I mean approach. Yeah. Jiu-jitsu wrong. So like, okay, so you mentioned before how the person, like a person in the beginning, you, your confidence can go backwards one step

because you're like, oh-oh, like, how many people. know this and I didn't even realize it so you're kind of apprehensive just in general. That is yes if you approach it correctly in my opinion. Because if you approach it wrong, you're kind of like, oh, I know a choke now. I know arm lock. Now I'm badder than everybody, you know, kind of thing. That's the reality of jih Tzu that you won't feel that way because you'll get, before you choke, you learn a choke, but then you get choked and arm locked and camere at 15 times

in one day. So you don't feel more confident out of the date. I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. But then again, no, you know what? A small part of me did, did. Oh.

Only if I knew the other. Yes, it totally was. But on top of it, I would know, you know, I know who in my little, what do you say, in my circles, like I knew who didn't train and who did, just like we all do, you know. I mean, strangers, I'd always be like, man, like. You know what that guy else? You got to watch out. Yeah.

Just like, you know how like sometimes you're like, you don't know if that guy has a weapon or something like that, that feeling, it's that feeling, you know, a little bit worse because if a guy has a weapon you can kind of run away if someone has you in any kind of jiu-jitsu scenario like mounted or in an arm part isn't it weird you can be mounted and you can't get away literally can't get away you can't get away you can't scratch bite

go for groin stuff like oh that that doesn't matter you will not gonna yeah it's bad and I would think about that stuff too yeah it's scary but it's just like the whole concept of passing the guard right it doesn't seem like it if you said okay the idea of Jitsu one part of Jiu Jitsu is you have to get around the other person's legs. Yeah. That's the whole that's what you got to do you think oh well

How long is that gonna take four seconds three seconds? Maybe even two seconds whatever I'll get around their legs And then you realize it can take years and years and years of trying to get past a one person's guard if not never Sometimes yeah That's a crazy thing very crazy roommate it was I think it was you at the muster Where I was like we were talking about I forget if you were saying it or I was saying it I think you were saying it I was like I think you were saying it and I was like like maybe add it. I don't know.

Nonetheless, I was like, because technically getting past someone's guard is just getting past your legs, just like how you said. And you can use this whole room. I don't care if you walk out the door and sneak back in the back door. You still can't do it.

And like you can, like I was, and I did a little demonstration where I'd be like, okay, this is like, all I got to do is get past your legs. Guard, no guard. I just got to get past your legs, right? So I backed way up and I started like walking around.

All you do is like turn. And it just, yeah, it's crazy how just how impossible that can kind of seem. you know, but that's the jujitsu, you know. And that's one tiny little sliver of an aspect of it is just passing the guard. Yep. Yes, it goes deep.

Nonetheless, but yes, if you approach it correctly, I have no doubt in my mind. I don't know under any circumstance where it wouldn't be an improvement in your life, net, net. Check. Cannot think of one. So overall, we're saying do jujitsu. Yes, sir. Once we decide to do jujitsu, which we just decided, now we need to get a ghee. Yes.

We get an origin geese from origin, main.com. You get a lot of stuff from there. But yes, you get your ghee from there, many different options. Speaking of geese. I've been noticing people getting Blue Belt winning tournaments saying, hey, I join jujitsu because of Jocco. Yeah. Because of this. Well, yeah.

So there's there's. at camp this year there was people that were like, I'm a jaco blue belt. And I was like, what is that? And they say, I started training because of the podcast. I was like, oh, awesome. And I've met, I think, two jaco purple belts. Now,

the podcast has only been out for four years. Four-ish, yeah. Yeah, we're coming up on four years. So I mean someone out of the gate was like, okay, I'm getting, because you got to, you know, it takes about four years to get a purple belt. If you're like training hard, right? This is no slack. Someone that just

jumps in. So I think I've met two like jaco purple belts. So legit. But yeah, that's that's super cool. Yeah. So, so you're not alone. Don't feel like, you ever feel like all of a no one's really actually doing that. So I'm not doing it. Yeah. People are absolutely doing it. Yes. 100%. My, my, my, my wife just, uh, was in England. She delivered a friend. She delivered an origin gee to England. For her Friends husband Anthony

He's He's like whatever 50 years like my age 48 52 something like that Obsessed with the Jiu Jitsu He's been training for six months He's like a wet belt He's like in the game right? Yeah

At some point you commit You say you know what I'm gonna do this Yeah just do it Yeah just do it This is how you know you and we haven't used the expression you used to bug recently but this is how you kind of know when you're sort of trying to figure out moves when you're like in bed or driving or this kind of stuff what is like constantly rolling in your mind it might be this a good feeling yeah because it does translate when you go back in it like you work it out it's good man but yes people are in the game so yeah and you're gonna train ghii so get a jihitsu ghi from origin main.com get a rash guard so you can train no ghee which is also important. Very important.

As Echo would say. Yes. I would just say important, but he would say important. I don't hear the difference. Yeah. Well, that's because you don't hear anything. And then the problem is,

the problem is you're going to want to represent off the mats. Off the mats, right? And we can go into the whole thing about how you can't wear a ghee to the club. Most of the time, yes. You can't wear a ghee to the grocery store. Generally speaking.

Now, you can get away with ghee pants, let's face it. Let's face it. Let's face it. I think most of us have been into a grocery store in geepants. I know I have. Especially the black ones. The origin, black ones, they look kind of, you know. Well, you could probably go to a club in the origin black geepants.

You could pull it off. You could pull it off. What kind of fashion? You know you're a fashion guy, but where does that fit into the fashion world? Like what would you wear with black ghee pants to a club to, no, to a, let's say a bar. You're going to a bar. You put on the ghee pants and you just, what are you just wearing a t-shirt? There's an origin t-shirt.

Well, just a Def-Core t-shirt. Let's clarify. First off, I'm not a fashion person. But if I was, I would say there is no fashionable, unless you're going to extreme new age fashion, which I can think, then yeah, you could wear a, you know, shirt. You know, it's funny. You ever heard of this store called Patagonia? It's really bad. They make outer wear and stuff.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. outdoor clothing, right? Well, Patagonia used to have pants, maybe they still do, that were called gea pants. Okay. That's what they were called. They probably still have. Right on. So maybe, you know, they're over there wearing their ghee pants out.

Maybe we just need to get the game and represent even harder. But are they called geese pants? Yes, they're called gee pants. Or are they called GI pants? They're called gee pants. They're, when you, I remember back in the day I would read the little description. And it would say, you know, the ghee pants is based on the loose-fitting martial arts pants. Yeah, we'd say that in a little description.

Yes, okay. So, yeah. All right. Well, yeah, I mean, man, it's kind of like whatever you did. I mean, it wouldn't be a violation overall, especially if there were the black ones. The blue or the white, maybe the kind of where people will look. Like if you wear out. Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, you couldn't wear white. No. Ge pants out for just no reason. But the black you could kind of get away with it would be hard to pull off. Yes, sir. Yeah. So anyways, but if you don't want to wear your gay pants and you still want to represent, that's fine. You can get a pair of origin jeans, which are also made in America.

The little brass rivets are made in America. The zipper is made in America. The thread is made in America. And they're sewn by craftsmen, crafts women up in Maine. That's where they're made. So everything is there. They're as American as American can be. That's what those genes are.

When you put them on, you are embracing America to its core. And you're rebuilding America. Because you've got to remember all those, none of those people had jobs. None of those people at origin had jobs five years ago, three years ago, two years ago. Because all the jobs have been taken overseas. We're bringing them back. So embrace. America

and embrace origin genes two kinds there's the heavy there's the there's the factory genes is what we call those are the OG the original

original ones and then there's the Delta 68 which are mine my signature genes but they don't say jaco on them because that's not no they say Delta 68 named after my four fathers in the seal teams

in Vietnam that wore jeans into the May Kong Delta to hunt down the enemy and they did it because they were more durable they lasted longer they were quiet so that's what we did we brought them back Delta 68 represent yep good ones get some what else well from origin well supplements of course keeping us in the game so you know 50 years old your friends, your wife's, friends, husband.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was the name again? Anthony. Anthony. 50, we'll just say 50, around 50. So, because people will ask, like, am I too old to start? You're 40. You're not. Yeah, negative.

I know a guy 41 and started and is kind of a little bit of a handful to deal with, 41, which, you know, that's not terribly old, but it's not terribly old. Well, no, actually what surprised me is just a handful to deal with. That means, because there are some people. that whether they're 20 or whether they're 40 they just have a little something yeah have a little they have some skills some inherent good instincts yep they have some inherent strength yes sir yeah yeah flexibility all that something yeah yeah it's the point is for everybody and then you can even train hard but if you do you do have to mind these things like okay I'm not 20 years old anymore I'm 50 years old now

So you do have to mind those things, not nothing. So if you're going death matches, eight rounds, six minutes, okay, that's not nothing there either. So, but here, good news, joint warfare, krill oil. These things will keep you deep in the game. Take from me. I can turn up the workout. Personally, I'm just speaking for myself.

I'm no anomaly. I can go deep, hardcore on a workout, week after week after week. differences if I do take joint warfare curle oil and if I don't take joint warfare curle oil I won't be able to go if I don't if I do I can't this applies to everybody like I said so that

question is sir answered yes and if you want to make it a little easier to maintain then just get the subscription we have the subscription now so that way you can just here comes joint warfare once a month you get your bottle there you go you start to get your

oil, you get it, and you actually save money. So check out the subscriptions there on origin, mane.com. And don't forget about milk, which is additional protein, which you also need if you're, if you're lifting, if you're training, if you're running, if you're alive. And on top of that, if you get done with a really good dinner, even if you had some delicious like steak, and then you got done and you still have this little thing in the back, your head that you just need a little little bit of sweetness a little bit of that hitter you can just mix it a one scoop hitter just mix yourself a one scoop milk hitter

you and you'll go to bed completely satisfied you'll feel like look I I I'm I'm completely satisfied with what I've eaten yes and and you're stronger and healthier on your way to recover yes too you will not relate to this but people might be able to. Okay. So when you get on the path from not being on the path, your initial get on might include quitting drinking, cutting down drinking, but probably quitting drinking.

Okay. So here's a common thing that I heard and experienced with quitting drinking, where you kind of crave like sweets or like desserts. Interesting. Something that'll like give you like a, what, a dopamine or whatever the chemical hit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you'll want that.

Like you'll want like cookies or stuff, you know, because you're not drinking anymore or whatever. That'll be like a result. Yep. This is what I heard and literally experienced. And it was like stronger than I expected to. Now, if you have the milk, boom, problem solved. 100%. Because it does supply that, you know, the dessert kind of scenario.

Especially you've put some peanut butter in. Bro, put some peanut butter in there. No factor, right? You're on the path. 100%. No side effects, no drawbacks. Yeah. Speaking of no side effects, no drawbacks, if you get the RTD, the ready to drink,

Discipline go in a can. RTD. Did you speak that out? No, no, that's a thing. That's a product name. It's like, oh, this is an RTD. Sounds like you made it up. I didn't make it up.

It just sounds like you made it up. Okay, it says it right there on the page. Oh, yeah, high speed, low drag, RTD. Do it. Make it happen. RTD. No. But speaking of that, when I went up to Theo Vaughn's podcast and he was drinking.

And he started getting that, you know, you start feeling it because you can feel it. And he was pretty funny. And he says, he said something along the lines of, you know, I might find myself back on cocaine after doing this. So he started feeling like the, and I said, no, you don't need to go back on cocaine, you know, thinking to myself, you don't need cocaine. You just need a little bit more discipline go. RTD, yeah, man. Which is not an, it won't make you. It's not a gateway drug.

It won't, it's not a gateway drug. It's not going to make you end up sleeping on a problem. park bench so no no the opposite yes might lift up the park yeah you might buy the park so it's probably gonna happen so so true also jaco white tea speaking of picking up park benches and whatnot yeah draco white tea boom and it happens to taste good and it happens to be certified organic you like mentioning that yeah man I do it was a big deal to get that little qualification I dig it's good it's very good actually because here's the thing like yeah you Well, even when you first announced.

Do you think people in Nebraska care if it's certified organic or you think it's only 40-mile radius around L.A.? I think. I think some people in Nebraska care. That's what I think. Right on. And this is why. Where with you? Because when you first announced that you're drinking pomegranate white tea. Oh, yeah.

People were asking, is it organic? Is that what you're going to say? That's part of it. Yes. I'm saying that whole experience for, well, primarily, it was like, all right, that's surprising. doesn't sound very hard core, you would think maybe you're drinking something else. But when you're like, Papa Grame. Okay.

Now we can do that. Or we can admit we drink these white teas, which is good. But a lot of our wives drink white tea. And they tend to care about certified organic in my experience, which is very limited, by the way. So I'm saying pomegranate white tea, jaco white tea. Jocko white tea is for everybody. And just because you're not all, I don't care about certified organic,

just because you're like that doesn't mean everyone else. In fact, I would think the majority of the people would rather it be certified organic than non-organic. I would agree with that. Preservative is.

The root of me drinking pomegranate white tea is when I used to debrief seal platoons out in the desert after they would get done with their brief and I would drink chocolate white tea

By the time I get done with these notes and just get into it. But yeah, so check that as well. It's good. Also, Jacco's Store. It's called Jocco Store. So you go to jocco store.com. We do have t-shirts, hoodies, rash guards, hats. Three kinds of hats, by the way.

Three types of head gear, by the way. Women's stuff, you know, decals and stickers. These are all things if you want to represent while you're on the path. Discipline equals freedom. Def core to the core I like it Good all these things And that's one that's gonna permeate kind of everything

The good you know when you find the good in this situation All these things you can represent get your stuff Jocco store.com If you like something get something on that one Also I got to mention that I have a little I have some events I'm gonna be doing Around the country

Starting in January Around the time the book comes out a little bit earlier I'm gonna be in Washington D.C. Austin Texas I'm gonna be Somewhere in the vicinity of New York, maybe somewhere in the vicinity of L.A., somewhere in the vicinity of Seattle, Washington, and somewhere in the vicinity of San Francisco.

So I will let you know, but just pay attention. I just got an email right before we started recording this, that that is actually factually happening. I don't even know what I'm going to call it yet. So I will be live on stage, interacting. So there you go. Boom. Also, speaking of live,

But I imagine when I do those live events that there will be lots of people representing. Representing big time. They will be representing in their garments. Oh, yes. That they're on the path. Yes. We normally see a lot of people

that are wearing something that says DefCore or in the wild. Yeah, so there you go. Big time. Also, subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already on your iTunes. If you listen to iTunes, Google Play, if that's what you listen.

Stitcher if you have Android. What's with the voice, bro? I don't know. I'm just delegating the listening avenues. See what I'm saying? And leave a review. If you're in the mood, if you're in the mood, leave a review. Reviews are welcome.

Is you what I haven't read reviews lately on the podcast? I've done that before. I'll do it again. If I see some good ones, some ones that kind of nail it. Yeah. Kind of have layers. We're looking for layers. Yes.

Primarily. Yes. That's the thing. So, and you notice they said welcome. Reviews are welcome. Because the difference between welcome and accepted. So I already know reviews are accepted. We already know you can write a review.

Are they expected? They're not expected. I would say expected, no. Yeah, welcome, meaning like if there's a review, that's like, we kind of like that. You know, like, it puts a smile on certain people's faces. And we're going to go ahead and read that one. Don't forget that we have another podcast called Grounded. It's just a podcast called Grounded, where we talk about other things.

And I think that's the way you said this on the last little support section. Because how do you describe what we talk about on grounded? And I think the answer is we talk about other things. Yes, other things. You know, what does that mean? Well, it's other things. Other things. I think that's pretty, I think that spells it out.

Yeah, man. Yeah, as opposed to what? These things. It's not these things. It's more other things. Yeah, it's other things. Yeah, for sure. Equally important things.

Maybe not. Well, varying levels of importance. We'll say that. Maybe not equally important. but interesting. Yes. I think so. And here's something that is important.

I will say this. Even though they might not be of equal importance, they are things that will grant you a better understanding, a broader understanding of things. Yes. Of other things. The more you understand other things, the more you'll understand these things.

That is true. Yeah. Very well put. Thank you. Do you need to change whatever that little, you know how a podcast has a little, you know, blurb about what it's about? And I don't think you've changed the Jocko podcast one since you wrote it when you were nine years old. But you should make the grounded one say a podcast about other things. Yeah.

All right. I'm going to do it. That's actually good. I do too. So for example, Jason Gardner talking about how he lives up in the mountains. And when they go jogging, they got to carry guns just in case they get attacked by freaking. Mountain lions, those are other things we talk about. That's what I'm saying?

One of the many. But it's important to understand that. Yes. We also have a Warrior Kid podcast. This is a great podcast, not just for kids, but if you're a parent, you can use it to help you parent, but you can also learn from it. I am a parent. I got four kids, two of which are over the age of 18, 20, 18, got a 16-year-old and got a 10-year-old. I'm passing on some lessons learned

covertly flanking you with some lessons learned that will help you and I wish I would have this podcast when my kids were younger but Warrior Kid podcast let your kids check it out and don't forget to get yourself some more your kid soap from Irish OaksRanch

dot com where young Aden is got his own business and it's not just a business that's making money it's a business that's helping people stay clean that's good from there Speaking of staying clean, go on YouTube. There's a rough transition.

Then there's just bad ones. You just called for bad. No, no, no, no. It does anyway. So yeah, so yeah, if you want to watch the podcast, watch and listen, put on your smart TV in your office, gym. It's a place of, you know, place of workout. You see what I'm saying. I know what you're doing to say.

Or if you just want to watch that computer anyway, it's a video. version so yeah man you know because some people because video watching video smart TVs the the permeation permeation I don't know what the hell you're talking about prevalence of smart TVs is what I'm saying you're gonna have more YouTube is what I'm saying you can have more you know you know I'm saying so boom subscribe put it up put it on there listen to it do it do it see what I'm saying do it and if you need some some psychological help getting through a moment of weakness, you don't have to be alone. You don't have to be alone.

You don't have to fight that fight by yourself. You can get fire support when you press play on your phone of an album called psychological warfare. The artist known as me, Jocko, laying down tracks. No music, just voice, just me talking. And telling you, hey, this is what you can do to overcome that particular moment of weakness. Whether it's you're thinking you don't want to go to the gym, whether it's you think you're going to eat a donut. You're gonna eat a donut?

No, press play on your phone and take a listen. Take a listen. We'll get you right. We'll keep you on the path. And if you need a visual reminder to be on the path, to stay on the path, check out Flipsidecanvas.com with Dakota Meyer. It's Dakota Meyer's company. And he's creating graphic visual designs that will help remind you where you are,

where you're going and where you want to be. Flipside canvas.com. Also, I have some books. The first book is The Stress Effect, written by Colonel Henry Dick Thompson. So we just reviewed that. It's an outstanding book. There's all kinds of information in there.

I only read a small percentage of it, but tons of knowledge. So order that. You can find it on joccopodcast.com under books from the podcast. And then there is leadership strategy and tactics, which is my newest book coming out January 14th. I just open up the index.

Open up the index and what do I see. Here's some sections. Some sections you can read about. Fear inducing moments, failure, feedback, fighting, fire teams, flanking maneuver, foot patrol, friendly fire, leading from the front, front lines, FTCX, full mission profiles, good teams, gossip, guidance, Hackworth, David, hands-off leadership, head counts, heavy-handed approach, high-ground, high-risk

operations, honesty, hope, humility. These are some of the topics that get covered in the leadership strategy and tactics, field manual. I wrote this so you can refer to it. You can open it up and say, hey, I got a person that has a negative attitude. What should I do with them? Oh, I'll open up the field manual and follow the directions. So that's what that book is.

Tons of good information in there for you. Don't forget, if you've got kids or you know kids, help those kids out by getting them the knowledge that they need to live a better life. Where are you going to get that? Warrior Kid, One, Two, and Three. Warrior Kid, One, Way of the Warrior. Kid, Warrior Kid 2, Mark's Mission, and Warrior Kid 3, where there's a will. These books are the books that every human wishes they had when they were 8 years old, 9 years

old, 10 years old, 11 years old, 12 years old. Make that wish come true for someone that you know, for a kid that you know. Your kids, some other kids, nephews, nieces, bring it to the library, whatever you can do to spread the word. And then there's Mikey and the Dragons, which is a book that teaches even littler kids, maybe four, five, six, seven, eight, how to overcome fear, which is what you have to do when you're growing up as a human being. You've got to learn to overcome fear. That book actually teaches little kids how to do it. Mikey and the Dragons. Get that for every kid you know. Get that for

the library. Get that for the classroom. Spread the word. And then there's the Discipline equals Freedom Field Manual. You don't know what to get that person for Christmas. Cool. Do you want that person to be weak? Do you want that person to be out of shape? Do you want that person to have mental trauma? Or do you want them to be on the path? Give them the gift of discipline. Give them the gift of discipline.

Discipline equals freedom field manual. There's no book like it. It's a different, it hits you in a different way. It's not normal. And that's why it's effective. Discipline equals freedom, field manual. Get that. Also, the audio version of that is

not on Audible, it's on MP3s through iTunes or Amazon music or Google Play. Also, we have extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership where Laf Babin and I wrote to explain what we learned from a leadership perspective on the battlefield and how you can use those same tools in whatever doing, in leading whatever situation you are leading in. And also we have Eschelon Front, It's a leadership consultancy where we solve problems through leadership. That's what we do. We come into businesses and we help with the problems that the businesses have. We help them solve those problems 100% based on fixing leadership, improving leadership,

aligning leadership. When you align and you fix and you improve leadership, that turns businesses, companies, and teams around. So go to echelonfront.com if you want some of that. EF Online, you don't necessarily have to bring us in to speak to every person in your company. You can go to EFonline.com and we can train your people or you virtually. That's what it is. It's a virtual training.

It's interactive. You actually get put in leadership scenarios inside that training online and you've got to make decisions. It's like choose your own adventure. So that's EFonline.com. We have the mustard dates coming out. shortly for our leadership conference extreme ownership.com for that where we come with the entire echelon front team live and in person and we bring the knowledge that we have and share it with you and then we have eF overwatch and eF legion where we are taking selected military personnel we are

ensuring that they understand the principles that we talk about the principles of extreme ownership, the principles of the dichotomy of leadership. We make sure that they know and understand those, and then we place them into companies in the civilian sector so that those leaders can lead and help those companies win. Go to eFoverwatch.com or EF Legion for that. And if you need more of us, which is really just hard to even imagine that someone could want to hear more of either of us, but if you want to find us, you can't. We're on the interwebs.

Dick Thompson, Colonel Dick Thompson, Colonel Henry Dick Thompson. He is on Twitter. He is at HPS underscore CEO, and he's at HPSYS.com, which is for high-performance systems. If you want to check him out and learn from him, he's just an unbelievable human being. And it's an honor to have sat with him. As far as Echo and I, we are also on the interwebs.

We are on Twitter. We are on Instagram. And we are on that face. Echo is at Echo Charles. And I am at Jocko Willink. And once again, just complete thanks

sincerest possible thanks gratitude to Dick Thompson for coming on this program and sharing his lessons with us and of course we thank him for his incredible

service and sacrifice to our great nation for what he's done inside the military and for what he's done since he's left the military so thank you colonel and appreciate it and obviously an open door anytime you want to come back and to the rest of our servicemen and women out there who stand watch for us every day

thanks to what thanks to you for what you do and the same goes to our police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol and secret service and all the first responders out there You also make sacrifices to protect us So thank you for what you do and to everyone else out there Just stay aware Be aware of what leadership is be aware of what stresses Be aware of what cognitive ability and

and emotional reactions and be aware of stress and the impacts that stress has on your decision-making process. And think about that. And also, think about this. Think about the fact that you're free. You're free. Our country is free. And we are free because of the heroism and valor of those warriors that faced fear and horror and death. and still moved forward.

Not after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.